Rational Choice: the Todd Helton and Troy Tulowitzki extensions, and what it means for the rest of the MLB
I believe that the MLB player procurement process, from drafting, to international free agency, to signing MLB free agents, to locking players already under control into contract extensions, is a pretty good example of rational choice theory in action. Owners and general managers aren't out to deliberately undermine their own teams and their own employment or sources of revenue, and that generally we should assume a basic level of competence for their jobs and the ability to make informed decisions toward their own well being. This doesn't preclude these rational actors from making bad decisions based on the information they have, and the inferior ones will do it more frequently than others, but assuming that they're ignorant of information that is freely available seems more far-fetched to me than to assume that they've processed it along with other information to come to the decisions that they have made.
Second, because of this belief that the MLB follows a rational choice model, I think that the behavior of these parties follows the same basic patterns that we see in other rational systems, for instance, that choices or actions that prove damaging cease to be made and try to get undone. When we see a team actively try to trade or dump a long term contract within a year or two of signing it, we know a bad decision has been made. When the team is willing to cause themselves further hurt, i.e. absorbing a large part of the contract without significant or equal value exchange, as the Rockies did with Mike Hampton and the Rangers did with Alex Rodriguez, we know that hurt was so deep as to cause significant damage to a franchise and to impair the ability of said franchise to stay in this rational mode.
The response to future opportunities to make the same mistake by these actors is as predictable as the response of a child who has a second opportunity to touch a hot stove. They don't. The Rockies haven't even glanced at available elite pitchers from outside their own system, either in the trade market or the free agent market since Hampton. The Rangers haven't set the market for an elite free agent position player since Rodriguez.
Conversely, actors that have made successful decisions in the past can be expected to attempt to replicate them. The White Sox have been trying to recapture their successful formula from 2005 for five seasons. The Yankees and Red Sox keep on pouring boatloads of money into free agency because they keep on deriving many more boatloads of money in gate revenue from these players. It's a successful action that gets repeated. Meanwhile, Florida and Pittsburgh keep on dispatching young players before they reach arbitration and get expensive because they have figured out that they can make boatloads of money from MLB's revenue sharing system this way. It too is a successful, rational action that gets rewarded in repetition.
I think this is probably where we need to make an important point: the primary impetus of nearly all decisions in the MLB is monetary. Teams put lip service to wanting to win first, to build legacies, but the bottom line is to take care of the bottom line first. Winning, while a very important factor in the decision making process, is second to the financial considerations. This is a multi-billion dollar industry and you can be certain that the actors therein are going to be working to protect its value. Winning obviously helps teams make more money, but as the Pirates and Marlins' cases have pretty clearly shown over the last few years, it's not the only way for a team to make a buck, and not necessarily the primary motivation for franchises.
This isn't to say that teams don't make poor financial decisions. They do. I think I pointed out a few obvious cases already, but like I also pointed out, when teams make these mistakes, a natural pattern of attempting to undo the mistake and then not repeating the action follows. We usually can't look at the books, but we can look at the consequences by a team's subsequent actions and it makes it clear when there were financial blunders.
Which is what brings us to Todd Helton, Troy Tulowitzki, and why the contract extension to the latter tells us a lot more about the extension to the former than people seem to realize. The majority of public opinion seems to feel that Helton's extension was, in Alex Remington's words "an unmitigated disaster" for the Rockies. The significant problem with coming to this conclusion is that the observed consequences for the Rockies of the Helton contract do not fit the pattern of this level of a mistake. We've observed with the Hampton and Neagle fiascoes that Dan O'Dowd responds naturally when he makes glaring financial errors with the team, but he didn't do so here. In fact, as the Tulowitzki extension is an acknowledged repetition of the same act that the team made with Helton, it's fitting the pattern we'd instead expect of a successful action the first time around. What's more, the team is making an effort to repeat the action again with Carlos Gonzalez.
Why is there this discrepancy? If we're to believe Remington and the broad public opinion on the subject, that the Helton contract was a mistake, then we are also to have to assume that in extending Tulowitzki, not only O'Dowd, but also a notoriously spendthrift ownership group, has somehow collectively lost their ability to function rationally and follow their own established patterns of behavior at the same time. Or, we can assume the opposite, that the Helton contract wasn't in fact a financial mistake, and that O'Dowd and the Monforts retain their marbles and are repeating it because it was a successful action.
This brings us to a basic question which Remington asks, but in my mind doesn't sufficiently answer:
Why did the Phillies, Rockies, and Twins hand out free agent dollars to players under team control? Did they really save money?
The way the second question is worded makes it clear how Remington might be missing the real point of these extensions to franchise players, that the goal for these teams isn't to save money at all in signing them before they hit free agency, but to make it. Before I get too far in this direction, however, I want to say that while his arguments aren't sufficient to answer the problem he poses, Remington's not coming at this without thought. He understands that the basic set of facts at the core of his argument, that the contract extensions awarded to these players, including Helton, are not equal to the win value of their play on the field afterwards. As Rawktober and Jeff Aberle have pointed out, this assumption itself might be false in Helton's case, but even assuming he's right there, Remington errs in his presumption that a majority of these teams lost money in the extension deals because of those discrepancies.
I'm not going to spend much time on the other contracts he cites (Rawktober's Fanpost arranges them nicely by WAR value return) but I would suggest that to really find out if teams are making or losing money on the deals, one needs only ask if they've continued making them since. In the case of the Yankees, it's pretty clear that they find value in their player extensions whether the player performs to that level of salary or not, while somewhat curiously, the Mets have been reluctant to go out on a Santana like limb with young players like Jose Reyes or David Wright. The infrequency which other clubs attempt to make these deals suggests that really finding a profit with them may be very rare.
So why Colorado?
One of the real ramifications that Colorado likely found financial success with a contract like Helton's that doesn't necessarily jive with the win value added on the field is that Rockies fans are willing to reward the team disproportionately for their position players compared to what other fans would. Given what we know about how baseball works at altitude, this makes some sense. The perception of fans in Colorado would be that Helton, Tulowitzki, Gonzalez, etc.., are better players than the perception would be of them elsewhere, and therefore local fans will be more willing to spend their money to see them. I'm not saying that these would be bad players by any means on other clubs, but I'm saying that casual fans who see them at Coors Field will view them differently than the generic baseball going public, and that this perception of higher value will be reflected in the amount these fans are willing to spend on Rockies baseball. Since most baseball revenue is derived locally, this would have a significant impact on the shaping of the club.
This idea that perception of quality and value can be substituted for actual quality and value among baseball consumers can lead a few interesting directions for the way teams shape themselves. Don't be so naive to think that this phenomenon would be unique to Rockies fans, either, as this playing with consumers' perceptions of value is obviously common commercially, and given how easily they can absorb bad contracts, it seems likely to be just as true of Yankees fans as it is of Rockies fans.
Another direction this leads is to one of a specific local value for players in each major league city. Before Ken Griffey Jr. was traded from Seattle to Cincinnati in 2000, he turned down a $148 million, eight year contract extension with the Mariners. His hometown Reds signed him to a $120 million extension after completing the trade. Both clubs felt they would be getting their money's worth (they both proved wrong, but that's a moot point) so the discrepancy indicates that player values in Cincinnati may be off 20% or more of what they are in Seattle. People talk about what a great deal Evan Longoria's contract is with the Rays, and there are some that feel that Carl Crawford was an overpay by the Red Sox, but if a player in Tampa only has a third of the value to the club as he does in Boston, it should affect how we evaluate their deals. The monetary return to the clubs could be remarkably similar despite the large discrepancy in dollar value to wins provided.
Finally, this indicates that the teams signing these extensions with franchise players are likely looking at them as an investment in the player's added monetary value to the club, in added merchandising, advertising, ticket sales, etc.., above and beyond their win value. Given that these deals still take place in a rational market despite being seemingly obvious overpays, rather than being incredulous like Remington, I would suggest that the average discrepancy between the dollar value of the contract and the win value provided by the players in question would be a place to start in quantifying the elusive value that a "face of the franchise" would have over your Adam Dunn types that don't seem to get the same premium. While there are some clear misses (Hampton, Vernon Wells, presumably Jayson Werth) these contracts don't keep on getting made by multiple GM's if some of them aren't successful investments. Thanks to the Tulowitzki extension, we can now safely assume that the Todd Helton deal was one of them.
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The no-trade aspect was the worst of it
I think the big problem with the Helton deal was the no-trade clause. It really tied the hands of the home team. Whether they would have or could have or should have traded him is a long argument. But with an expensive contract, and a now injury-limited player, it is obviously something to have seocnd thoughts about.
At the least the Rox were able to dump Hampton (howbeit at a ridiculous cost) but at least he did not show up on the roster every week.
by Real Perspective on Dec 10, 2010 3:26 PM MST reply actions
A few years ago, I would have agreed. Now, I don't know if I can.
If the Rockies really needed to trade Helton, and get out, as they half attempted prior to 2007, they probably could have. Even then, they just were looking for a fair value return. If it was a really bad contract, fair value wouldn’t have been as much of a concern. Given that they have now signed Tulo in a similar fashion, it has really altered my perception of the Helton deal. The Rockies probably weren’t quite as burdened by it as they claimed.
It's a shame he can't hit as well as he once did
Well, if you look at putting fans in the seats, Helton may have delivered. A lot of people know and like him. He is true sportsman. And it isn’t his fault he has a bad back. Although he doesn’t have what he used to have at the plate, he is still our guy.
I would think the DOD staff thinks Tulo will do the same for the Rox — bring fans to the park. From that perspective, keeping a great player in Denver will do a world of good for the franchise.
by Real Perspective on Dec 10, 2010 3:46 PM MST up reply actions
For the record, Todd Helton is my favorite baseball player of all time
and I buy at least five tickets a season to cheer for him. I doubt I am the only one.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Loves (and misses) Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
by Muzia on Dec 10, 2010 9:15 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Well
I have made sure to collect 670 different Helton Baseball cards over the years, so I would agree definitely my favorite player and when I buy tickets most of the time I hope he’s in the lineup for me to cheer for
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
You're forgetting the 2006-2007 offseason
where Helton agreed to waive his No-Trade clause for a trade to the Boston Red Sox. There wasn’t a fair return, so, and I hate to EVER cite Woody Paige as a good quote, but Helton did the classy thing by giving the Rockies the chance to trade Helton, and the Rockies did the classy thing by not simply dumping his salary. If the club’s hands were so tied in 2007, they would have made the trade for nickels on the dollar and been free of the ghastly franchise-ruining contract.
Additionally, when Helton signed his large contract, that was AFTER Hampton was traded. The franchise KNEW they were going to go through a rebuild, and they signed Helton anyway. Why? Despite the large portion of the payroll Helton would take up, they knew it would be a couple of years until the team was competitive, and Helton was the only thing keeping fans in the seats. In fact, Rockies attendance only dipped below 2M once, in 2005, and it was still above 1.9M. For perspective, the Tampa Bay Rays’ attendance has only been ABOVE 2M once, in 1998, and that was their inaugural season.
Having a big contract player like Helton on the roster wasn’t a massive drain because the FO KNEW that the Rockies wouldn’t be competitive until 2007-2008, and from 2005-2008, salaries were low due to MLB contract structures. There was no reason to trade him unless he demanded it. Helton didn’t, clearly.
Whether they could have traded Helton is one thing, they could have, and they had an offer. Whether they should have, well, look at those Tampa numbers. Look at Pittsburgh, who’s been in a perpetual rebuild, and hasn’t cracked 2M more than once in the past decade. I argue they shouldn’t have.
The point is they didn’t need to.
by Andrew Martin on Dec 10, 2010 3:40 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
You have a point (or two)
Nice assessment.
by Real Perspective on Dec 10, 2010 3:42 PM MST up reply actions
Helton signed the contract well before Hampton was traded
They locked Helton up before Hampton even threw a pitch- both contracts were signed in the 2000/2001 offseason. Helton’s just kicked in after Hampton was gone.
Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.
by BrandonHawpe on Dec 10, 2010 5:21 PM MST up reply actions
Great writeup, Andrew
Rec’d
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Loves (and misses) Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Wow
Once again, another great story by RoxGirl. Do I agree with the long term extensions from a finacial standpoint? It’s up in the air since I don’t know all the ends and outs of the workings of a pro baseball team. But as a huge Rockies FAN? Of course I do. I’m always very willing to go out and spend my hard earned money to go out and watch a team that has some of the best fans in the country, its just the fact of nobody else(mainly from the coastlines) don’t even realize what kind of atmosphere there is in Coors Field every time there is a game. Every game that I’ve gone to, I’ve met someone new, and its just not to talk about the Rockies. Hell, me and one guy sat there and talked about most of the other teams in the league. I don’t go to Rockies games to just watch baseball, even though I don’t miss a pitch thrown, its a social event.
I don’t want to miss any action that may take place. On September 25th, night of Cargo’s famous catch and Tulo’s walk off double, that was one of the best games ever that I had attended. I had never been a part of walk off celebration at Coors, WOW, and if anyone else was there that night. We all know how LOUD that place was. The only other game that is even close was the first game of the recent series with the Red Sox. I was there for game one, I wanted to go to the following night’s game, but I had to get back home.:(( I wish I could’ve been there for Stewie’s homer and Giambi’s walk off.
I think the main reason why DOD gets these long extensions done besides protecting the club and players. THE FANS. We are the ones who pay their paychecks, we should be the ones that they play for. Even though they may lose some and win some. That’s what keeps us going back over and over again. We expect the have the best for what we can afford. Tulo-damn-I would’ve given him the moon if that is what it took. Cargo, probably do the same after next year just to see if he can do it again. Do we have the best players in the game, no we don’t, but we do have 3 maybe even 4 of the best in their respective positions. I think we have a really good shot at taking the division this year, more than last year. It don’t take a lot of money to win championships, just decent players that actually care for the game and that come out night and night and play for the FANS. What’s the old saying. “YOU GOTTA SPEND MONEY TO MAKE MONEY”. Sorry about the length.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2010 3:39 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
no apologies
this is a good article for lengthy replies.
by Andrew Martin on Dec 10, 2010 3:41 PM MST up reply actions
but I just kept babbling on about stuff. I think the Rockies are out to win a WS, don't get me wrong but as I said, its the fans that keep the energy up in Denver. We come out 38-50 thousand strong and fill the stadium. It'll help the team out ALOT.
You're right...
And I’ll go you one better. We like having a guy we can rally around. Sports fans need heroes. Tulo is a legitimate hero as Todd was (and still is.) Here’s a guy whose jersey you can buy your kid knowing he won’t opt out and take the Yankees money the first chance he gets. A guy the team can put on its media guide.
Go Bruce!
Also rec'd.
I feel exactly the same, and they are a major part of why I moved down to Denver.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Loves (and misses) Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Good article, well written and right in line with my thinking
Further, off topic of the post I will never consider the Helton deal to be a “bad” one, rational or not.
Good logical argument
You’re right. We humans tend to seek pleasure and flee pain (I said “tend”). Given the Hampton fiasco, it’s a wonder DOD signed ANYONE to more than a 90 day contract afterwards.
Bleed purple
As a side note
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/rockies-hoping-to-extend-carlos-gonzalez.html
The Rockies have offered CarGo a 7 year extension, but $$$ undisclosed.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
wh wh wh WHOA
I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 10, 2010 5:47 PM MST up reply actions
I'm guessing the offer would be somewhere along the lines of what Jay Bruce just got.
CarGo’s had more WAR according to BB-Ref, while Bruce is a bit younger and a Super-2, so that may balance out. As I posit in my post above, if it’s higher, it’s because the Rockies can afford higher as well as, of course, Boras.
so like 7 years 70 million?
I can see the Rox offering that, but CarGo probably turning it down.
I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 10, 2010 5:48 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, that's the neighborhood I was thinking
And if it, there’s zero chance of him agreeing to it.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
I see no chance of this happening
and I am against a 7 year deal right now, but if it’s anything like the Bruce deal, there is little risk involved on the FO side.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Loves (and misses) Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
If that happens
and I hope it does, maybe finally and forever the “Cheapfarts” haters will STFU.
Get your purple on.
Great, great post RG
This kind of writing is one of the reasons I love this joint.
Get your purple on.
by rockhead on Dec 10, 2010 5:49 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
agreed.
RG, when you are on, you are on and there is no better baseball writer than you.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Loves (and misses) Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Haha
Doubtful but I can see it
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2010 11:03 AM MST up reply actions
Maybe he gives it the winter off ?
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Soul patch
is evident. Not as full and dark as Spilly’s usually is, but maybe he gives it the Brian Wilson treatment in season :P
I don’t see him going all out with Broncos gear like that, but it’d be pretty cool if it was him. The nose looks like his, too. I’m allowed to say that since he’s not Jewish.
.
…we should assume a basic level of competence for their jobs and the ability to make informed decisions toward their own well being
Yes, but their job is to make money first and win ballgames second (as you noted). So the franchise can consider itself successful (because it stays in the black) without the fans considering it successful (because the team doesn’t win games). I love Helton, but the for the majority of his contract I was not really enjoying Rockies baseball. I really hope that we don’t have a repeat of the same situation with this Tulo contract
by Schrute4President on Dec 11, 2010 2:03 AM MST reply actions
I agree...
I do think that the Rockies are somewhat lucky in that their FO does more than most to both win and stay in the black, as there are organizations which seem to aim for mediocrity and then hope they get lucky. The team’s also probably in a better financial spot than similar markets such as Arizona, and the fact that the Rockies seem to be able to offer more to their stars (not to mention their Ty Wigginton’s) than some of these cities should ultimately give us an advantage when the right decisions are made. The downside is that it would seem that given the rates they pay, SF and LA both still find a bit more value in a baseball win than the Colorado market does.
Contracts as long as Tulo's and Todd's I find disquiting....
I have long known baseball has it’s own economics; it’s still tied to the real world. The owners kept their purses closed last off season in general because they feared a financial collapse. They opened them wide now that the storm seems to be receeding. While they are showing confidence in recovery; a lot of the country and the world are stareing at a new normal of economic doldrums.
Helton’s signing was the Franchise trying to brand it’s self with the demise of the “Bombers”. Todd has been the model citizen of that. With Tulo they are trying the same. This is logical for a medium market team that doesn’t have 100 years of brand loyalty behind it. It’s also an example of why Tampa’s fan base hasn’t grown in the inverse. The FACT that injury has limited Todd at the end; doesn’t negate the risk of such long deals.
If the economy goes south; these long contracts may strangle the whole sport to death. It won’t just be the Rockies. I understand all of your points RG & RMN. They don’t ease my dsiquite.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I'm guessing that the sport will survive...
One thing that I’m finding particularly incredible about this off season is the amount of money that’s being left on the table that some teams presumably have left to spend. Think about JDLR turning down the Pirates bigger offer, Crawford leaving $108 million with the Angels, Beltre leaving $64 million with the A’s, and whoever loses out on Cliff Lee, be it the Rangers or Yankees. If these contracts go south, they may hobble a team. However, I think at worst we’ll see an owner or two go underwater, as Hicks did with the Rangers last year, or Coangelo with the D-backs a few years before that, but we’re not likely to see an early 2000’s NHL type of situation anytime soon.
I'm not saying the Monforts are reckless or cheap...
They’ve been pretty reasonable with product vs. profit. They reinvest x%profit into growing the brand and product on the field. But from long experience I have never in my lifetime seen the country’s economy so fragile.
LBJ put us in this position before. Nixon and Ford started to turn it around before Carter almost completely botched it. The country had more in reserve then. Still it took Reagan half of his presidency to square us up.
This is not about a political economic diatribe. I can see the sport surving up to four franchises going down at once. I can see with forced contraction surviving six to eight. I don’t think the owners could survive more than that in quick succession. The total loss of revenue to cause that will make what is going on in Ireland and England seam like a walk in the park compared to the Dominoes I see lining up.
My disquite with the world economy in general is why I preach caution now. I love the distraction of baseball in bad times. Unfortunetly a distraction is exactly that. For the sport’s sake I hope the owners don’t get too distracted.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
You bring up an interesting topic....Foagie...
If MLB does decided on contraction, would Colorado be a team faced with it? And is this move to sign a couple of superstar players long-term, a method of the Rockies avoiding being a contraction target?
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I see Colorado as maybe nine or ten in a list of forced contraction IF the Monforts survive the carnage.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
eh, it's a fair question
I mean if we’re talking about contraction (which isn’t happening), might as well discuss what Colorado’s odds of being axed are
by Andrew Martin on Dec 11, 2010 3:57 PM MST up reply actions
I agree that it's a fair question, but the way in which it was posed is . . .
. . . how you say . . . controversial.
Blaming all America’s problems on LBJ, Carter, and presumably Obama and treating Nixon (wow), Ford, and Reagan as saviours is a biased position to say the least.
What’s PR’s standing on political discussions in the Rock Pile or anywhere else? Didn’t think it was looked on too kindly, but this kind of flew under the radar.
I’m no Republican or Democrat, but both have played roles in getting us into this position. Many of the financial industry’s automobile industry’s issues stem from the start of de-regulation in the Reagan administration, continued through the Bushes and Clinton. What’s happening now has more to do with “dominos” that started in the 1980’s than what’s happened the past two years. Governmental policies do not move nearly as fast as political talking heads would lead you to believe.
by blooming rock on Dec 13, 2010 6:12 PM MST up reply actions
What OldFoagie did sort of fit this discussion, but this response wouldn't be allowed.
Because what you’re doing here is only talking about politics without the tie in to a baseball discussion that OldFoagie had, and not really responding to the baseball part of the question.
Gotcha.
I’ll just add some corollaries about how the Republicans represent the Yankees and the Democrats represent the Red Sox and how both have contributed to the current state of “perceived competitive imballance” by simply throwing more money at players than anyone else can compete with; thus weakening the MLB a s a whole and making it subject to the currently poor economic climate . . .
by blooming rock on Dec 14, 2010 12:46 PM MST up reply actions
It's probably a more appropriate response, that way, yes...
Yep, it’s all about thinly veiling your didactic rhetoric. A thicker veil will probably be needed in Rockpiles. I was a bit lenient here because the long term economic climate has an impact on how we value both the Helton and Tulowitzki contracts.
Okay, I think you might be buying too much into arguments made by people with a political agenda
and before anybody really goes after us for getting political, let me just say that the points you bring up are where politics and economies could tie into baseball and the Rockies future, and I think it’s a valid question for this thread since I imagine you might not be the only Rockies fan to be thinking this way. That said, I think the political affiliations of the presidents you cite clearly shows where your information might be one-sided, that is to say that I believe your sources are withholding pertinent information, whether deliberately or subconsciously, to lead people into this frame of mind of extreme financial duress on the horizon in an attempt to make their political agenda seem as if it’s the only logical choice.
I said the same thing to some of my liberal friends who complained about unsustainable war debt, or who see a mass extinction event due to global warming coming. The problems in all these cases are real, and we need to find real solutions to them, they just get exaggerated to doomsday proportions to serve certain causes.
I’m not saying that the economy’s going to be fine over the next decade. I think I’m in agreement with a lot of economists that we’ll see fits and starts, ups and downs, and generally slow growth, particularly compared to the last 20 years. Growth nonetheless, though. I think the massive cost issues will start to ease by the end of the decade, even though it’s going to take some basic infrastructure changes we’re probably not completely aware of right now. I think you paint a too dim picture.
Contraction isn’t going to happen. If Tampa and Pittsburgh and Florida can still be turning profits under the current model and with the economy tanking, then it’s difficult to see it happening later, particularly since baseball as a professional sport is actually more appealing to an aging baby boomer population than most other professional leagues. Grampa and Grandma are a lot more likely to take in a summer ballgame than they are to go out and freeze their tails off at Invesco.
Again, I think baseball does follow a rational model, and the actions of these teams need to be tied to some previous action. This winter, the action of pouring out large money contracts must tie into a better than expected year economically for the sport.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2010 9:25 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't worry too much about these long contracts strangling the sport Oldfoagie; baseball survives everything
Over the last century baseball has survived players going off to fight in two World Wars, a Great Depression, a team throwing the World Series, blatant racism and the exclusion of black players, beloved teams abandoning a city they called home for decades (Dodgers and Giants), the transition from radio to television, the expansion from 16 teams to 30, two leagues playing under a different set of rules since 1973 (the DH), radical shakeups in both division alignment and playoff structure, multiple work stoppages including the 1994 strike that wiped out the World Series, steroid scandals involving the game’s best players, outrageous salaries, and rising ticket prices.
The game is as healthy now as it’s ever been and these long contracts won’t change that.
109 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 13, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, RoxGirl...
That was quite a heady read. And may I say BRAVO.
I had to read the rational choice theory(which I never knew about or maybe did but forgot it) Based in that context, I think you have proved that the Rockies made a great choice signing Tulo long term and hopefully CarGo too.
(and as a little aside, not only did you help explain why the Rockies aren’t actually crazy, your link to the rational choice theory, was a revelation, and may end up helping me on a personal level….so thank you!!)
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I agree with SDcat
This was an AMAZING read!!!
thanks SDcat!
and thanks to everybody else who have expressed their appreciation. I’ve expressed a lot of these thoughts in comments, but I figured I probably should tie them together in a post since we were still getting “unmitigated disaster” articles elsewhere. I also figured it was probably wise to tie in the theoretical basis of my logic, so I’m glad that the link to rational choice theory helps.
You Go Girl!
Helton’s “face of franchise” value is priceless to me. Hopefully his back will be better next year, but still his veteran presence has to mean a lot to the team even if he can’t play every day. It also shows a commitment from ownership that will attract quality players to our organization in the future.
Take my advice, I never use it.
Having never heard of rational choice theory,
I had picked up on the Rockies tieing up the next “face of the Rockies” for the future.
Thanks for the insight into thought processes.
This thread has the makings of one of the classic Purple Row threads.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Dec 11, 2010 10:55 AM MST reply actions
Brilliant write up Rox Girl
You do an excellent job of laying everything out.
I’d like to play devil’s advocate for just one moment however. If the Rockies thought the Helton contract was a positive investment from a financial standpoint, then why did they try to unload that contract by attempting to trade Helton to Boston in January of 2007? Wouldn’t the rational choice theory say that’s an example of a team admitting they made a mistake?
You even say in the article that
When we see a team actively try to trade or dump a long term contract within a year or two of signing it, we know a bad decision has been made.
The Rockies didn’t quite do this because they were four years into the Helton deal but they still tried to trade him with five years and a guaranteed $90 million left on the contract.
109 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 13, 2010 11:21 AM MST reply actions
We sort of address this in the comments above...
Had the Rockies gone ahead and dealt Helton to the Red Sox for what they were offering (Lowell, as long as the Rockies ate salary) it would have been an example of a team getting out of a mistake. The Red Sox apparently assumed this was the position Colorado was in (like everybody else, myself included). The Rockies were holding out for more, however, and didn’t end up dealing Helton. Instead, the behavior indicated that the Rockies thought an opportunity to improve the team for the long run was available and Helton was a chip they could use to accomplish this. In other words, it was similar to standard personnel decisions and there was no real mistake compulsion to move Helton. That the Rockies haven’t pursued other first basemen until recently is another sign that the original contract wasn’t the blunder it’s made out to be.
There’s a similar story playing out with Michael Young right now, with the Rockies playing the role Boston did with Helton in 2007. The Rockies are assuming that the Rangers made a mistake with Young and will deal him and his contract for pennies on the dollar compared to their real value. The fact that the Rangers are apparently pursuing Beltre with three years left on Young’s contract helps support this theory. That evidence to me is a lot more compelling than the failed 2007 Helton negotiations with Boston were.
But doesn't the Rockies willingness to eat up to half of the contract show that they really wanted to get rid of it whether?
Even if they were holdng out for better players, they still were trying to dump half of the salary. Monfort even says
We realize that it’s not wise to have that much tied up into one player on a payroll. It’s tough to be successful that way
in this article from 2007.
I agree with you that the Helton contract is not what it’s made out to be and was an overall positive, I’m just not convinced it was a slam dunk.
109 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 13, 2010 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
get rid of it whether ?
109 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 13, 2010 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
It still doesn't come out and say that the contract wasn't worth it
And I don’t know where you get that the Rockies were willing to “eat up to half his salary”. The amount of salary they would be willing to pay of Helton’s depended on the player they received in return. This is an exchange of value, and it seems in retrospect that they had a definite idea of what would be acceptable.
From the same article:
The Rockies explored trading Helton to the Los Angeles Angels at the winter meetings last month, a move motivated by Colorado’s desire to fill multiple holes and spread out Helton’s salary.
Which again, implies a value for value exchange, not a strict salary dump. The acknowledged mistake there was not that Helton wasn’t a value to the team making as much as he was, it’s that the Rockies weren’t successful. The team was feeling that they would be better off spreading that investment around, not that the investment itself was bad.
The mistakes don't have to be mutually exclusive
I believe that the Rockies were trying to get better when they explored trading Helton in 2007 but I also don’t believe they would’ve even considered it if they thought the contract was a smashing success financially. Instead the Rockies probably viewed the contract as a slight positive but not a big enough one to prevent them from exploring other options.
Oddly, the only report I can find that says the Rockies were willing to eat up to half of Helton’s salary is from you in the “Boston Receives” section of this Rockpile but I remember there being other reports at the time. The options seemed to be either eat half of the contract and get solid prospects in return or eat less of the contract and get little in return. There’s certainly exchange of value there, but there’s also charcteristics of a team who wouldn’t mind dumping some of that salary.
109 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 13, 2010 2:39 PM MST up reply actions
Remembering, and given the context of that Rockpile, I think it was a Boston report that said that
It’s very similar to the Young situation where Renck and the Denver Post we can see that the Rockies want a larger chunk taken out of his salary than Texas is willing to pay. A grossly one-sided proposal from another team does not at all suggest that the Rockies were actually ever considering eating half of Helton’s remaining salary.
IIRC, after that, it came out that the Rockies were never willing to go that far in salary, and Boston really would have had to open their farm to get the Rockies do go very far down that paying a guy to play on another team road at all.
“Smashing success” may be hyperbole, but I would argue it’s less of one than “unmitigated disaster,” particularly since mine at least it seems to be on the correct side of the spectrum. While the mistakes don’t have to be exclusive, I do think there needs to be more evidence that Helton was a revenue loser for the club that nobody’s really come up with. In retrospect, I think Helton’s availability at the time was more of an indication that the team saw a changing of the guard taking place, that they would be able maintain his revenue stream with Holliday and the rest of Gen R at a profit, without having to pay the players what they were bringing in.
With a contract like Helton's
There is a strong chance that by the final years of the contract, the player will be underperforming their salary for those years. So trading them is an obvious option.
But it doesn’t at all mean that the contract was a mistake – these lucrative veteran years are invariably one of the main reasons the player agreed to the contract in the first place, and thereby was in a position to provide the immense value through the earlier years of the contract.
Very good
Thanks for eloborating on this Rox Girl. Your article was tremendous and I fully agree with about 99% of it. The possible Helton trade is the only thing we disagree on and even that detail is quite minor.
108 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 14, 2010 11:17 AM MST up reply actions



































