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Wednesday Rockpile: Further HOF Commentary, Rockies Still in Relief Market

Let's face it: there's not a whole lot going on right now in terms of Rockies news. The Winter Meetings are done and teams won't start seriously negotiating with their arbitration-eligible players until after the New Year. Pretty much the only hot baseball topic at this time of year seems to be Hall of Fame voting. Andrew Martin explained his vision of what the Hall of Fame should be on Monday. I'd like to comment on that topic briefly, then break down what my theoretical HOF ballot would look like.

Martin likes a small Hall, and I certainly get the sentiment. Many inductees, especially some of the earliest ones, lack in retrospect the credentials of what the majority of fans now see as a Hall of Famer. The majority of the most questionable selections were from the Veteran's Committee, however. The writers seem to agree that induction into the Hall should be an honor bestowed on very few men. To wit, there are 203 players in the Hall, but only 109 have been voted in by the BBWAA over a period of 75 years.

I see the Hall as slightly diluted, but most of the issues I have are with the Veteran Committee's selections in the mid 1940s. Nonetheless, the Hall we have is the Hall we're stuck with, for better or worse. I think that if a player is good enough such that his induction will improve the median of the Hall of Fame, he should be inducted. Otherwise, there's always the Hall of Merit.

So, how to define the HOF median? I defer to the guys at Beyond the Boxscore for that one. They use a few different methods, one of which involves analyzing a player's rWAR/WAE/WAM bullseye compared to the median Hall inductee's bullseye.* Another is via comparison of a player's best rWAR seasons ordered from top to bottom as compared to the Hall of Fame zone, which is a range of Hall inductees in the 20th to 50th percentiles. I lean more towards the bullseye method, but also use the HOF zone method to influence my decisions.

*  rWAR -- B-Reference WAR; WAE -- Wins Above Excellence, found by totaling up the surplus WAR in any given season in which a player accrued over 3 WAR; WAM -- Wins Above MVP level, found by totaling the surplus WAR over 6 WAR in one season; For example, Troy Tulowitzki's 2009 would be scored 6.8/3.8/0.8 

These methods account for peak excellence as well as longevity, but they don't take into account postseason excellence, integrity/character, and other factors that muddy the waters of HOF voting considerably. My opinion is that those factors should be only applied to the most borderline of cases. Why do I look at it this way? Well, as someone is likely to point out, I'm too young to have seen several of these players in their prime (or at all). Therefore, all I can rely upon is their statistical record and anecdotal evidence. I'm more inclined to trust the former than the latter.

After the fold I show how this season's ballot stacks up to the HOF median.

Off Topic.

Star-divide

Filling out a ballot

Some voters like MLB.com's Hal Bodley place a high value on integrity and frown on Steroid Era candidates (rightly or wrongly). Bodley only has three players listed on his ballot (Blyleven, Alomar, and Morris), keeping in form with the small Hall way of thinking. Others, like SI's Jon Heyman, will vote for more players (Heyman picks seven and still doesn't get the most deserving player in). SI's Mel Antonen theorizes that advances in baseball statistics have and will continue to change HOF voting. This has certainly been the case with Bert Blyleven and will be a heavy influence on my ballot.

Here's a look at the full 2011 HOF ballot complete with stats, which has 14 holdovers and 19 first timers. As for analyzing the median HOFer, the current median HOF position player has a bullseye score of 58.0/21.5/2.6 while the median HOF pitcher has a score of 56.9/25.9/6.4 -- showing that HOF pitchers were more dominant at their peak than HOF position players.

Adarowski of BtB analyzes both the position players and the pitchers on the ballot via the bullseye method.

JinAZ of BtB analyzes the 2011 HOF ballot via the HOF Zone method.

To receive consideration in my eyes, a position player needs to exceed at least two of the bullseye metrics or have a particularly impressive HOF zone profile while a pitcher needs to exceed at least one and come close in another (there's a lot more position players in the Hall than pitchers, so the pitchers' median is higher).

Without further ado, my view of this year's ballot:

Players on my theoretical ballot, in order of merit

1. Jeff Bagwell (79.9/38.7/9.7) -- Bagwell surpasses each bullseye metric and ranks first on my ballot due to his impressive 9.7 WAM, which is about twice the score of anyone else on the ballot. Yes, he really was that good.

2. Bert Blyleven (90.1/36.1/4.9) -- Blyleven falls a little short on the WAM metric, which jives with the compiler tag that he's been given. However, his scores on the other two metrics (and a hundred other great reasons) are more than enough to get him in.

Big gap here down to a clump of players with pretty similar bullseye profiles.

3. Larry Walker (67.3/23.3/4.4) -- Walker's 9 WAR MVP season in 1997 is the best season for anyone on the ballot. His plus defense may be underrated by rWAR, actually. That and his status as a Rockie make him a pretty easy pick for me.

4. Roberto Alomar (63.5/25.9/4.2) -- rWAR really didn't like Alomar's defense (career -3.4 WAR defensively) despite his ten Gold Glove reputation. I'm going to assume that Alomar's value with the glove falls somewhere in the middle of those two extremes and that he was a pretty darn good second baseman. 

5. Alan Trammell (66.9/26.1/3.8) -- An underrated defensive shortstop (career 7.5 defensive WAR) with superficially unimpressive offensive statistics who also performed well in the playoffs.

6. Barry Larkin (68.9/25.7/1.6) -- Larkin's case for candidacy is well-elocuted here, but basically Larkin is better than almost all HOF shortstops (Ripken included) on a rate basis.

7. Tim Raines (64.6/21.4/2.3) -- Besides being very efficient at stealing bases, Raines might be the second greatest leadoff man in recent history. He just had the misfortune of playing at the same time as the best, Rickey Henderson. Struggles with cocaine have likely hurt Raines in the past, but I'd love to see him inducted.

8. Kevin Brown (64.8/25.1/4.8) -- Yes, Kevin Brown. Per JinAZ, Brown posted a 2.53 ERA from 1998-2001, some of the highest run environments ever. His HOF zone graph really pushed him over the top for me. Brown had a really underrated career. The steroid rumors drop him on the list but keep him on the ballot.

9. Edgar Martinez (67.2/26.3/2.3) -- Martinez is right on the edge due to his career's late start and the fact that he was a DH his entire career. He's got great offensive numbers, though, and his HOF zone profile compares to those of Larkin and Alomar.

Borderline players excluded from the ballot

10. Mark McGwire (63.1/25.3/2.5) -- he might be on the other side of the cut without the steroids, but it'd be close. As it is, excluding him is a pretty easy decision.

11. Rafael Palmeiro (66.0/20.5/1.6) -- see McGwire, Mark

12. John Olerud (56.8/20.1/4.3) -- This surprised the heck out of me, but Olerud had a pretty darn good career. Not good enough, but he deserves some recognition.

No other players had high enough bullseye scores to merit consideration. As for Jack Morris (39.3/9.4/0), he is well below Hall of Fame thresholds in every metric, never even coming close to 6 WAR in a single season.

In case you were wondering, Todd Helton's numbers currently stand at 57.9/26.3/6.7. That's a pretty strong HOF profile via the bullseye method, especially the WAM rating -- I'd vote for him, anyways.

News

Thomas Harding reports that Dan O'Dowd is still looking for a bullpen piece, but it could be a while. Of the options listed, a sign and trade for Grant Balfour intrigues me the most. It is important to remember that signing a reliever to a major league contract would fill up the 40 man roster.

Buster Olney of ESPN Insider ranks MLB's top 10 rotations. No, the NL WAR-leading (and 2nd in MLB) Rockies staff didn't make the 11 team list, though six other NL teams did. That's the fallacy of overweighting the importance of a team's top two or three starters at the expense of great depth.

Poll
Is Larry Walker a Hall of Famer?
Yes
169 votes
No
88 votes

257 votes | Poll has closed

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I disagree with Olney

that the Rockies rotation doesn’t belong in the Top 10 (I’d rank them 8th or 9th), but I also disagree that the Rockies rotation has all that much depth. Cook’s ability to last a full season & be effective is doubtful at this point in his career, and Hammel’s “tired arm” finish last year doesn’t inspire much confidence either. There’s not a young in-system
starter ready (I don’t think Rogers is going to be an effective big league starter, nor is he ready, not having shown sustained success at AAA) & Paulino as the fill-in is a gamble.
I like our Top 3 a lot, but starting pitching depth just isn’t that deep.

Mediocrity sucks

by Maris6161 on Dec 22, 2010 8:00 AM MST reply actions  

That piece by Olney is just another example of the double standard

the national media puts on the Rockies. Whenever a Rockie hitter is mentioned doing anything productive, it usually takes about four seconds for someone to mention they play half their games at Coors Field and that their numbers can’t be trusted.

However, I might be able to count on one hand the number of times I’ve heard a member of the national media couple the numbers a Rockie pitcher puts up with them having to pitch half their games at Coors Field.

MEMO TO THE NATIOAL MEDIA: YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!!!!!!!!! Either the numbers both the Rockie hitters and pitchers put up need to be taken at face value, or the numbers Rockie pitchers put up need to be praised every bit at much as the numbers Rockie hitters put up are condemned.

This trash is both shameful and dishonest and anyone who continues to practice it loses credibility in my book.

101 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 9:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Ubaldo placed third in the Cy Young voting this year...

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 9:09 AM MST up reply actions  

Don't tell me, tell Buster Olney

And while I think Roy Halladay was more deserving of the CY Young this year, it’s worth noting that Ubaldo had the highest WAR score of any NL pitcher (including Halladay) at 7.1 according to rWAR.

I also find it interesting that when Ubaldo put up a 2.88 ERA this year that every member of the national media I heard took it at face value. It would have been nice if just once I heard someone compare Ubaldo’s 2.88 ERA with Halladay’s 2.44 ERA and argue that Ubaldo’s number was better because of Coors Field (or at least close).

I still believe there’s a double standard.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 9:32 AM MST up reply actions  

You're also forgetting we play in Colorado

no one can watch us

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 9:40 AM MST up reply actions  

Wrong. No one takes the time to watch us.

Writers have access to MLB Extra Innings I assume. Funny that they do manage to watch Dodgers and Giants, and those games start an hour later than ours.

It’s either laziness, willful ignorance, or both…

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 9:42 AM MST up reply actions  

there's a big difference between putting on whatever game is playing MLB Network that night

and actively seeking out a Rockies-Padres game at 10pm

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 9:47 AM MST up reply actions  

That's my point. MLB Network is not the same as MLB Extra Innings(which you know)

So I’m not sure if you are agreeing with me or not.
They could DVR as well……

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 9:48 AM MST up reply actions  

why would your average national writer go out of his way though

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 9:49 AM MST up reply actions  

I mean, it’s not like the Rockies haven’t had any success in the past 4 years…

So I’m still unclear if you agree that they are being lazy or ignorant?

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 9:52 AM MST up reply actions  

I write about hockey.

When I get home, I usually turn on whatever game is on NHL Network that night.

I don’t put on a Columbus Blue Jackets game that’s on NHL Center Ice, even if they happen to be having a good year and their young star Rick Nash is one of the best players on the planet.

Because I don’t care enough about Columbus to go out of my way to watch that particular game over whatever is being nationally broadcast.

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 9:55 AM MST up reply actions  

And that's a problem as well. Do you think you'd be right to not give him any votes or nods for HOF

or postseason awards because you didn’t watch him? Or would you vote mostly sight unseen.

And if that is what the future writers of the world are doing this makes me quite sad. No one expects every game to be watched, but some level of attentiveness would be good….

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 9:59 AM MST up reply actions  

There's a difference between "level of attentiveness"

and actively following every team.

I know Rick Nash is very good, just like baseball writers know Tulo is very good.

It doesn’t mean I have to watch every game they play to get that info.

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 10:05 AM MST up reply actions  

An outdoor game at Coors would be EPIC!!

Of course, it would be better if they played it in a winter when it wasn’t 55 degrees outside…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

SD Cat 09 is still awesome

by Junction Rox on Dec 22, 2010 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

mullets are appropriate in hockey

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 11:00 AM MST up reply actions  

Tulo already plays hockey

his name is Sean Avery

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 11:15 AM MST up reply actions  

Oh yeah

biggest douche in the NHL

Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 11:24 AM MST up reply actions  

So then he's nothing like Tulo?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

SD Cat 09 is still awesome

by Junction Rox on Dec 22, 2010 11:26 AM MST up reply actions  

Not cool.

I feel the same way as you do about Tulo but Avery is in his own class, man. That guy…damn.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.

by A.J. Haefele on Dec 23, 2010 1:04 PM MST up reply actions  

No one "can" watch us

Or no one “chooses” to watch us?

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 10:51 AM MST up reply actions  

It's too late to watch those games on the East Coast

Tony Kornheiser said so. And they’re boring! Nobody knows any of those guys. Where’s Jeter?!?!?

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 10:52 AM MST up reply actions  

good luck trying to shut down the venting against the media man keeping us down.

These sentiments will pop up frequently on any fan forum, even those of the Yankees variety, believe it or not.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 11:01 AM MST up reply actions  

I just don't like double standards

I understand that the Rockies are not going to get the most coverage and I’m fine with that. I just don’t like our hitters being condemned while our pitchers are ignored. I want the National media to pick one or the other.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:12 AM MST up reply actions  

oh I know, I just meant deacs' comment

I’m not saying “THIS IS THE NEW RULE” so much as “this is just gonna get me upset on my birthday. F that noise.”

by Andrew Martin on Dec 22, 2010 12:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Today is your birthday?

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions  

You'd know this...

if you were his friend on Facebook!

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.

I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.

"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter

by RdRnnr on Dec 22, 2010 12:31 PM MST up reply actions  

this is true

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 12:32 PM MST up reply actions  

You'd know this...

if you actually existed

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:36 PM MST up reply actions  

I hope this was for SDcat09

because I’ve met RdRnnr, therefore he exists.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 12:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes, it was, certainly

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Looking a their peaks, Barry Larkin and Larry Walker are interesting comparisons

Both were regarded as top defenders at their positions, and both had near-elite bats (for their positions). Larkin was great for almost a decade, 1991-2000, but like Walker he lost a lot of time due to injuries (and the strike) so his counting stats aren’t as great as they could be.

It sort of feels like he disappeared, but maybe that’s just bias against Ohio. He had that weird exit from the Reds, or maybe he’d have been more of a presence in baseball since he retired.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 8:02 AM MST reply actions  

I think Larkin's biggest problem is that, rightly or wrongly, he isn't looked at as at the level of...

Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, Derek Jeter (HAR!), Omar Vizquel, each of whom had a lot of crossover in terms of playing career.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 10:05 AM MST up reply actions  

I think him also having only four sesaons where he didn't miss more than 15 games also hurts his chances

Guys like Ripken, Smith, and Jeter were out there most every day.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 10:54 AM MST up reply actions  

Within that subset, you have people who were elite for different reasons

Everything: 1. Cal, 2. Barry

Defense: 1. Ozzie; 2. Omar

Offense: 1. Jeter

The problem with Barry is that he is at best second in any category within that subset of players. I can appreciate that, but he just seemed really, really good even though he was injured a lot.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 11:20 AM MST up reply actions  

Well, I don't think he's a clear "no", at all

Though I think he wasn’t even as good defensively as Cal (but I digress).

I think he’s as borderline as, say, a Larry Walker. Maybe he’s exactly the kind of candidate for whom the “first ballot or bust” is most clearly not appropriate.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:13 PM MST up reply actions  

And this is why I have no problem with players growing into the Hall.

It also allows us to really go back and truly look at their careers with more retrospect than they might be given otherwise.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 12:19 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree with most of the choices, except Edgar Martinez.

Now, I know he’s number 9 on your ballot, but I think the fact that he was completely a one-dimensional player, albeit great at that dimension, should exclude him from HOF status.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 8:27 AM MST reply actions  

Most pitchers are one dimension players

Can you blame him for a stupid decision by the AL?

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 9:11 AM MST up reply actions  

I don't like comparing pitchers to hitters

I think they are totally different animals.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 9:33 AM MST up reply actions  

I blame him for not being a good enough defender to beat out Paul Sorrento at 1B, among others.

Tino Martinez in 1995, I can understand, as T. Martinez was a solid defender, but in 1996, Sorrento cost the Mariners 14 runs on defense. If Edgar was so bad with the glove at that point that Piniella would rather have Sorrento, I figure something had to be wrong. So a lot of his WAR would have been negated if the rules were uniform across leagues.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 9:47 AM MST up reply actions  

But then you have Rafael Palmeiro winning the GG in 1999

playing 23 games or whatever at 1B and Lee Stevens playing the bulk. Managers/people make odd decisions (though Stevens had a nice year with the bat in ‘99). I’d have a hard time retroactively making sense of Lou Piniella’s mind.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 9:58 AM MST up reply actions  

But players vote for the GG (and are known to make stupid decisions)

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 10:07 AM MST up reply actions  

(and are known to make stupid decisions)

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 11:20 AM MST up reply actions  

what we know of Martinez's defense in small samples was below average, and absent other evidence

we have to assume it was worse than the 1B’s the Mariners had. I’m making a rough guess of -1 win a year bad and multiplied over the ten seasons he was primarily a DH, it would drop him to the current Helton range.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 10:09 AM MST up reply actions  

This is true and I'd also extrapolate from Mondo's comments

that even if his defense would’ve been mediocre, he was regarded as fragile enough to not be allowed to play the field. To me, that’s almost as much of a strike as being too poor of a fielder to be in the field.

But, for better or worse there’s an option for those people in the AL. It’s not the same, but Molitor DH’d about half of his career. He played a lot of positions when he was in the field, but he wasn’t a stand out at any of them (according to TZ). Especially from ‘95-’98, when he wasn’t providing all that much with the bat, that didn’t change the opinion of him as one of the greatest hitters of his generation.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

well, that's why I think they should build an AL only Hall if they wish,

as this is unfair to similar players who spend most of their careers with NL teams. We’d think far different of Brad Hawpe’s Rockies career, for instance, and might still be employing him, if the NL had the DH rule.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 10:57 AM MST up reply actions  

Or, an alternative...

Make a special Hall exhibit for the Designated Hitter, highlighting those who were the very best at that “position” during their careers, and yet not disregard the sorta “half a player” critique with regard to actually electing and inducting the individual players into the Hall.

Opinions will differ, of course, but my feeling is if you’re a full time DH for the majority of your career, then your hitting numbers need to be beyond “minimum required HOF standards”, and need to be at the level of Albert Pujols to merit induction.

In other words, if your entire job for most of your career consists solely of getting your 3.5 ABs per game, you better be redonkulously better than everyone else, and not merely significantly better than most of your peers.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Does being the DH penalize you in rWAR like it does on Fangraphs?

If so, your point is mitigated. If not, it’s a serious flaw with my reasoning.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Dec 22, 2010 6:32 PM MST up reply actions  

actually, it looks like it probably does,

I think I forgot about that, as Martinez starts getting docked 14 runs or so every year from 1995 on. So thanks for pointing that out. Point mitigated.

I’m still not sure he’s HOF, but that makes him a lot closer for me.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 7:38 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't blame him for a stupid decision by the AL

However, if not for that stupid decision by the AL, his career likely would have been over years before it was. His defense and his health as a defensive player were that bad.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 10:06 AM MST up reply actions  

That's almost certainly true

but the reality is that the DH exists, and I have a hard time seeing a great hitter being precluded from the hall of fame because of that. He needs to be a GREAT hitter (like top 5 of the era), however, and that’s where Edgar might fall short in my book. Certainly, it’s where injuries and the late start really, really hurt him.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions  

Well yeah, I think we agree on that point

If you can hit like Pujols, you’re in the HOF, I don’t care if 98% of your time is at DH.

But yeah, GREAT in all caps, not simply “great”, which is what Martinez and Baines were, imho.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Would you classify Thome and Dunn (if Dunn continues a 600 HR pace)

among the best hitters of the generation?

It’s sort of interesting: how do being a negative-value fielder (Thome wasn’t always, but he wasn’t good) and being a DH relate?

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 12:27 PM MST up reply actions  

I know of at least one negative-value fielder that may get into the Hall.

And he happens to be one of my all-time favorites: Mike Piazza.

Being a catcher will help him, but many will also ask “If he didn’t play catcher would he still be considered great?” On the other hand, if he didn’t play catcher would his knees have been as shot and could he have put up even better numbers?

So, there will always be arguments for all but the very few that transcend the sport.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 12:31 PM MST up reply actions  

True. Piazza has grown on me over time.

I think his numbers would hold up if he played first, and his fielding was only a bit below average for the first half of his career.

The only thing I’d ding him for (though it wouldn’t affect his Hall ticket at all) is resisting the move to first. It definitely seemed like a transparent move to become the hittingest catcher of all time or whatever.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 12:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Piazza is a slam dunk

Because it doesn’t matter if people as the question as to “if he didn’t play catcher”. Because what matters is that he did play catcher, and thus he will (and should) be compared to his catching peers.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, that title was meant as a personal feelings statement

and not an assessment of his HOF worthiness. He is more than worthy.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 12:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry, wasn't trying to imply that you felt he wasn't HOF worthy

I do think that some 3rd or 4th levels of reasoning wrt to this issue are sorta non-sensical, to the extent that a voter trying to extrapolate any player’s worthiness if they played a position other than that which they actually played, is silly.

I don’t think this conflicts with the idea that a player should actually play a position in the field, and if not, their batting numbers have to be head and shoulders above everyone else’s.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree

One funny thing about Piazza is how much rWAR and fWar disagree on his numbers. rWAR only has Piazza as a 59.1 WAR player but fWAR has him as a 68.2 WAR player.

That’s the biggest career difference I’ve seen yet.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 12:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, part of that is he was THAT BAD defensively as a catcher.

And yes, he was my favorite player in high school and college. Still is one of my favorites all-time.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 1:06 PM MST up reply actions  

And the greatest 62nd round draft choice EVAH!

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 1:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes, kind of amazing what taking a flyer did for Lasorda.

In fact, the Dodgers drafted him because of Lasorda’s relationship with Piazza’s dad.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 1:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Look up Brooks Robinson.

It’s a 25 win difference

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by Jeff Aberle on Dec 22, 2010 6:35 PM MST up reply actions  

Wow

That’s insane.

And what’s even wilder is that it had nothing to do with fielding metrics. UZR and fWAR had him at +294 runs for his career while Total Zone and rWAR had him at +293 runs for his career.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 7:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, look at it this way, Dunn's been a fielder for what, a decade?

Not a great (or even good), but he played the complete ballgame. So even if he DH’s for the next 8 years, he’s not Edgar Martinez. He’s played over 1000 games in the field, and thus far, only 18 games as a DH.

And the same goes for Jim Thome, to the extent that he’s played over 1500 games in the field.

Thome, however, falls into the “600+ HRs and no PEDs camp”, and he gets in on that basis alone, as one of the greatest sluggers of any generation. Dunn probably gets to that level, too, but that’s a different matter.

Edgar Martinez was a full time DH by the time he was 31-32 years old, and played less than 1/3 of his career games in the field, and in fact only played 34 games at a spot other than DH from his age 32 season on. And I suspect the only reason he played those games in the field were likely interleague games in NL parks.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:35 PM MST up reply actions  

That's pretty much how I'd look at it

but if someone believes in negative defensive value (which I don’t know if you do), Edgar’s being a DH might actually be a better thing than Dunn being a Fielder.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 12:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, I think fielding stats are better than they were, but still dodgy at best

I don’t dismiss the concept of negative value per se, but I don’t think it outweighs the importance of simply being a complete player, i playing all aspects of the game.

Put it this way, if Dunn’s fielding truly outweighed his hitting contributions, he would not have a ML job on a National League team at all.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:42 PM MST up reply actions  

+1 and rec'd

And if he never plays for the Rockies, he better poop every position he plays against the Rockies.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 12:46 PM MST up reply actions  

How is Walker's defense underrated by rWAR?

Total Zone has him at +97 runs for his career which is an excellent number for a guy who played just under 2,000 games. It’s also 15 runs more than the +82 UZR has him at for his career.

101 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:48 AM MST reply actions  

Because Walker was awesome.

/doesn’t really have an answer

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by Jeff Aberle on Dec 22, 2010 6:58 PM MST up reply actions  

I vote Walker in th HoF

This era of HoF voting will be much different with more emphasis on modern stats and also including the PED issues. With that said, Walker was a top contributor on both the Expos and Rockies for years, MVP, all-star, and in my opinion had one of the best arms of any right fielder. His base-running skills were also top notch.

Enough of this mediocrity...win the NL West title!

by TripleT-Rox on Dec 22, 2010 8:49 AM MST reply actions  

I don't think reporters should base their votes purely on statistics.

And this goes not only for the mostly pointless stats (pitcher wins, saves, RBI) as well as the more advanced contemporary metrics. I think they should make themselves aware of the better metrics but then use their discretion as they aren’t typically going to have the statistical savvy to test the numbers, meaning they’d be taking somebody else’s word for it, and I don’t like that. So I guess I’m saying I disagree a bit with this “raising the median” idea, for that reason and because eventually, it’s going to be unfair to some pretty deserving players.
 
I think my ideal Hall would be something of a chronological comparison, where the best players of an era at their positions are recognized and then these teams can be stacked against others from prior eras. It’s for this reason that I think Walker’s case is very strong, because you don’t have any RF that stacks up against him for that 1993 to 2005 period (unless you’re gauging this solely by HR’s have no problem with the ‘roids and think Sammy Sosa does) and only a couple OF’s overall.

I think Bagwell at first qualify for the same reasons, there isn’t another 1B with his overall contribution during what’s considered the PED/1990’s expansion era. I don’t mind select “second best” players getting in if they were particularly noteworthy careers, so I’m okay with Raines, he’d have been best in CF in almost any other era but had to deal with Rickey, and Alomar’s only behind Biggio at second base, I’d vote for both of them. I think I’d vote for Trammell as the second best SS of the period before (to Ozzie Smith) while Larkin’s sort of borderline for me as he had the unfortunate distinction of coming in between two eras of several more elite SS’s than he was. That said, I think he’s deserving, this is where I would hope the reporters would allow the statistical record to push him over the top.

Blyleven’s overall career over a couple of eras deserves attention as well, again, like Larkin, I would hope the statistical story, as well as the anecdotal ones of the best CB of his generation get him in.

Kevin Brown just doesn’t qualify for me with Clemens, Martinez, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina, etc.., outshining him in the era. I think they should build a separate AL Bayseball™ Hall of Fame and include Martinez in that.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 9:12 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

/snort

well played! Bayseball, indeed!

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by RdRnnr on Dec 22, 2010 9:28 AM MST up reply actions  

Niiiiiice!

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by rockieprogress on Dec 22, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions  

brilliant

Score a goal. Unit. Basket. Go squadron! Do good! Defeat the opponents soundly in this...skirmish.

by Justus on Dec 22, 2010 12:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Was Roberto Alomar better than Jeff Kent?

They were basically contemporaries. I’d really have a hard time putting Alomar in over Kent.

Some of the BBWAA voters are still going to have a hard time getting past Alomar’s spitting incident, plus all of the recent domestic/personal allegations.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 9:21 AM MST up reply actions  

Defensively, Alomar was far better

Alomar got to ground balls on the old-version Astroturf that people had already written into their scorebooks as base hits. No comparison between him and Kent in that department. Offensively I think it’s hard to compare them because they were very different players. Kent was more of a middle-of-the-order guy that you seldom find playing 2B. So I can’t say Alomar was necessarily better, but they were both very good at their roles.

by Rockpile Interloper on Dec 22, 2010 9:28 AM MST up reply actions  

This is not mean to be a definitive rebuttal

but Totalzone has Kent at +0 per 1,200 innings at 2B; Alomar is -2 per 1,200 innings.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 10:01 AM MST up reply actions  

I blanked on Kent, even though I think Alomar was a bit better, but the off-field stuff does weigh him down

Alomar’s case becomes weaker for me if the HOF is serious about having character and integrity as a standard, and I could see a case for Kent despite the lying for falling off a truck and clubhouse surliness, as otherwise, he seems to be keeping his nose clean.

I think my best of that generation team of position players would look something like this:

C: Piazza/Pudge
1B: Bagwell
2B: Biggio/ Alomar or Kent
SS: Jeter/A-Rod
3B: Chipper Jones/A-Rod (he’s probably good enough to get in twice, or at least he seems to think so)
LF: Bonds
CF: Griffey/Edmonds, maybe A. Jones
RF: Walker

Other position players would have to be special cases for me to vote for them, McGwire probably comes closest.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 9:40 AM MST up reply actions  

by "best of generation" do you mean players at their peak?

or are you talking entire career?

(This question is almost entirely because of Andruw Jones)

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by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 9:43 AM MST up reply actions  

Sort of both. I could be persuaded in certain cases to judge peak only, and Jones would be one of those cases.

as I could be persuaded to judge entire career only (Blyleven) it’s why I count Andruw as a “maybe”.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 9:50 AM MST up reply actions  

See, I don't really see Andruw being HOF caliber.

He had a few good years and defensively was spectacular at times, but especially with Griffey as a contemporary (although their best years didn’t coincide) Griffey, was much, much better. Even Edmonds was better and had a longer period of excellence than Jones did, at least from memory.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 11:12 AM MST up reply actions  

That's exactly why he's still a maybe in my book.

What I would really want from Andruw to convince me would be another three win season that shows he’s got at least a little bit of longevity. Last season was an okay rebound, but still sub-par for a starter on a contending team.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions  

I like your concept

of judging the players against their peers of that era – it really is a good way of seeing just how good someone was from that time period.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 10:05 AM MST up reply actions  

Does Sheffield fit in anywhere there?

He started about the same time as Walker. And, if Edmonds and Andruw fit in to that generation, what about Vlad Guerrero? He’s been pretty bad in the OF from 2008 on, but that shouldn’t discount his generally very good work from 1997-2007.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 10:42 AM MST up reply actions  

The player I really forgot was Jim Thome. He'd be in as Bagwell's backup.

I think Sheffield’s close, but behind Walker and Manny Ramirez among corner OF’s. What gives Sheffield’s case a bit of extra validity is that he’d be a representative Marlin for the expansion era. Given that he’s got slightly less of a PED taint than Ramirez, I’d see a strong case for him.

Vlad’s in a similar boat to Andruw for me, and I’d have to be convinced that their peak and contribution to the game was just that special to make an exception given their lower overall career numbers. I don’t think either were quite the best of their generation (which I see as that 13 year period from the 1993 expansion to the start of the PED testing crackdown/rise of the humidor) at their positions, even though they were the best for a handful of seasons.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 10:53 AM MST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm overestimating it

but I think people discount too heavily the post-peak period for Vlad. He really didn’t become a liability in the field until 2008, and his bat was far above average until 2009.

He had 10 years (1998-2007) where he was dominant with the bat, played more than 150 games eight times, and more than 141 games nine times. In that period, his OPS+ clear 150 six times and cleared 140 eight times.

Walker doesn’t have a ten year stretch like that (assuming his best is 1994-2003), although his peak-peak (1997-1999: 18.3 rWAR) is better than
any three year peak-peak for Guerrero (2002-2004: 17.8 rWAR).

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions  

Are you accounting for labor work stoppages? Walker was on a pace for a 6.3 rWAR season in 1994

and a 3.9 rWAR season in 1995 had they been played out to 162 games. Adding that extra 2.3 rWAR gives him a decade (1992-2001) just as strong as Vlad’s best. Plus your arbitrary decade long end point is inherently unfair to a three peak (1992-1995, 1997-1999, 2001-2002) career like Walker’s anyway. Even without the labor adjustment, while Guerrero’s 10 year peak may be higher, he doesn’t have a 12 season period like Walker’s 1992-2003.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 11:38 AM MST up reply actions  

An arbitrary ten year period (which is an arbitrary, but fair measurement of greatness over a long period)

is unfair to anyone who played in 1994 and/or who suffered numerous injuries. The injuries, which are the main reason that Walker’s peaks came in high, but short bursts, apply to both.

As for the three year “peak-peak” adding the 6.3 rWAR doesn’t do anything, though it certainly helps his WAR total in the ten year period (I didn’t add that stuff up as my calculator is tied up at the moment).

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 11:50 AM MST up reply actions  

BTW, show me a selection criteria that isn't arbitrary

I hope I don’t sound snappy, but even using objective measurements this is still an arbitrary process (by selective inclusion of objective measurements).

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 11:53 AM MST up reply actions  

no, I agree that all selections of this sort are abitrary, and I didn't mean to come off too strong with that.

My whole 1993-2005 era is clearly arbitrary as well, there’s obviously fuzziness along the borders. It’s just that when using an arbitrary timeline, I think it’s important to be aware of how the perspective shifts if the arbitrary ends move in or out to try and gauge if your points are creating too much bias.

For a 10 year peak, it turns out I was lying, Walker’s decade doesn’t top Vlad’s 53.2 r-WAR even when adjusted, but if you do 11 years it puts him within a margin of error (Vlad at 55.5 to Walker’s 55.0) and like I said, in 12 seasons Walker’s ahead. Going the other direction, Vlad has the better 7 to 10 season peaks, but Walker’s got the better “peak” if we’re viewing it in terms of six or fewer seasons. I still think given the stronger overall numbers and the better WAR/162 game average, that Walker was easily the better RF of this period.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 12:14 PM MST up reply actions  

This is what makes the HOF voting so interesting

There’s so many different ways to look at everything. It makes excellent offseason discussion.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 12:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Nicely put

But, and I hate saying this, if this discussion is taking place on almost any other baseball blog Walker is going to lose the close race because people are going to subtract arbitrary extra points due to Coors.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions  

/band

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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 12:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Why would you do that

if he speaks the truth, or mostly the truth, about the subject. This is part of the reason I’m glad fans don’t vote on this.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
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by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 12:23 PM MST up reply actions  

I was joking....seriously...

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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 12:25 PM MST up reply actions  

This list of players

looks very similar to a certain set of baseball card binders I have for “elite” players.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 11:27 AM MST up reply actions  

what about

Frank Thomas and Albert Belle? Was Thomas injured too much, and Belle’s career too short/attitude problems?

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
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by Resolution on Dec 22, 2010 5:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Belle doesn't even have the numbers, really

Thomas will be in the HOF, I don’t think he’s eligible for another three years.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 5:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Thomas was sort of a dumb omission...

He’s worthy and should get in, and he’s a better version of a primarily DH that should than Martinez. Belle was deliberately omitted because his peak was too short, and the end of his career just didn’t measure up the start. He’s sort of like Dale Murphy for me in that respect.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 5:39 PM MST up reply actions  

If Dale Murphy corked his bats, too...

I seem to recall a latter career incident involving Belle. Oh yeah, he also intentionally threw a baseball at a spectator once, if my memory serves.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 6:09 PM MST up reply actions  

There's also the forearm shiver he gave Alex Cora.

(at least I think it was Cora, I know it was a small 2B)

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 6:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Very true, though that wouldn't be a disqualifier, per se, imho

I’m not even sure the late corking, by itself, is that big a deal, but he’s got a long history of poor sportsmanship and stuff that goes way beyond “not liking reporters”.

I only really put that out there because, if his numbers are borderline, that’s the kinda stuff that should nudge him to the wrong side of getting in. However, I don’t think his numbers were good enough for long enough, at any rate (but I’m not looking at B-R right now…)

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 6:14 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't think it would be a disqualifier by itself.

However, I think the accumulation of his attitude toward the media and other players and his on-the-field problems combine to give the voters enough ammo to keep him out. Especially, since, as you mentioned, he would be borderline at best anyway.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 6:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Frank should be guaranteed

with a career .301/.419/.555 and 561 bombs I don’t think there’s much of a question about him. And as Mondo says he retired after the 2008 season so he should be eligible in 2013.

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 5:40 PM MST up reply actions  

And even as a primary DH, that's pretty much miles ahead of Baines and Martinez

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 6:09 PM MST up reply actions  

oh yea, big hurt's going in

it was more just some discussion about RG’s list.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Dec 22, 2010 6:37 PM MST up reply actions  

I thought about discussing the fact that he was going in

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 6:40 PM MST up reply actions  

He's the man

I wish he had a better retirement…Him and Lofton…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Dec 23, 2010 10:05 AM MST up reply actions  

Speaking of which

What about Lofton? Does he get in? The dude has 5 more WAR than Helton does , an 80% success rate with stolen bases, and was one of the best lead-off hitters in the 90’s…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Dec 23, 2010 10:42 AM MST up reply actions  

He'll be eligible in 2014 actually

2013 should be loads of fun though. Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, Sosa, Biggio, and Wells will all be on the ballot for the first time.

I’m smiling just thinking about thecontroversy.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:08 PM MST up reply actions  

I know that you're not saying this exactly, but just to clarify...

I didn’t base my ballot purely off of statistics. I did look at era and narrative extensively too. Brown has the notoriety of being the $100 million man and I like to show that he was actually pretty darn good and deserved to be paid like a star.

My point with raising the median is that I think standards right now for the Hall are too low. By electing only quality candidates, it creates the kind of Hall that fans can look at and be proud of.

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by Jeff Aberle on Dec 22, 2010 7:04 PM MST up reply actions  

I apologize if this response came across as personally directed at you and your philosophy,

which to a point, I find to be a valid approach, I was just trying to figure out how to elucidate my own philosophy on the Hall because I found myself in disagreement with you. Again, not as a slight to your approach, just as a way of saying I would do it differently. I was directing some frustration at certain writers who can look up WAR on FanGraphs or B-Reference and think they have an easy and lazy way of doing their jobs.

While I can see concern that there’s some dilution (not nearly the amount there is in other pro sports HOF’s), somewhere down the road, what you’ve said of your philosophy so far would no longer be in the best interest of chronicling and celebrating the history of the game, as the consistent raising of the median would prevent worthy entrants from getting deserved recognition. If you’re at a point where only 75 WAR players get enshrined, the debate and interest for fans in those periods is not going to be as lively as it is for us, and you’re going to see a lot more bitterness toward the double standards, how unfair it is that such and such from the past got in but favorite player so and so who had just as good of a career didn’t.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 8:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, what people don't realize is how many deserving players there currently are.

If the Hall doesn’t elect some of them quickly, there will be a massive logjam in a few years.

As for a future Hall in which the median is very high, there’s a certain threshold that should be met (in my eyes anyway) statistically for consideration. I think that the Hall median belongs around 65/25/3.5 for position players — actually, the pitchers’ median is pretty close to where it should be. Once that threshold is met, there’s more room to debate generational candidates.

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by Jeff Aberle on Dec 22, 2010 9:56 PM MST up reply actions  

I extra voted for him.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 11:03 AM MST up reply actions  

#crosscheckMariaM

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by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 11:04 AM MST up reply actions  

Why do you hate America?

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.

I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.

"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter

by RdRnnr on Dec 22, 2010 11:14 AM MST up reply actions  

Is he breaking anybody's neck?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

SD Cat 09 is still awesome

by Junction Rox on Dec 22, 2010 11:06 AM MST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm too tough but I think nine votes is way too many for the talent listed here

For me, voting this many people in takes away from the accomplishments of the players who really deserve to be in the Hall. If I had a ballot, only Blyleven and Bagwell would receive my vote.

I tend to separate players who are eligible for the HOF into four categories. Good players, great players, exceptional players, and immortal players; and only those who fall into the latter two categories deserve to get in to something as exclusive as the Hall of Fame.

Nobody falls into the immortal category this year. (That’s reserved for the no brainers and the game’s ALL TIME best players. Randy Johnson is a good example of a guy who will be coming up in a few years who I’d place here)

Exceptional: Blyleven and Bagweell; that’s it. I think Walker is close but in the end I say he falls just short. The rest of the guys up there were all great players but their numbers just aren’t eye popping enough to crack the exceptional barrier for me.

Great: Walker, Larkin, Alomar, Brown, Raines, Trammell, Olerud, E. Martinez, McGwire, and Palmeiro all fall here (roughly in that order). However, I knock Brown, McGwire, and Palmeiro down a category due to the PED issues. All of these players, sans the PED users, should be celebrated by their clubs but ultimately fall short of the Hall by my standard.

Good: McGriff, Morris, Murphy, Mattingly, Smith, Franco, Baines, Gonzalez, Leiter, Surhoff, T. Martinez, Mondesi, Grissom, Santoago, Higginson, Johnson, Boone, reuter, Baerga, and Harris. (Although Harris probably shouldn’t even be placed here). From this category I give Morris a bump up to the great players list because of how much he was feared and his ability to pitch so well in the big game. (Especially in that 1991 World Series) It doesn’t get him a vote on my ballot but I do believe he’s much more deserving than any of the other players listed under good.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 10:50 AM MST reply actions  

My problem with this largely revolves around Barry Larkin

Are you taking into account position? Barry Larkin is no Jeff Bagwell, but Barry Larkin wasn’t asked to be Jeff Bagwell. Barry Larkin was asked to be Cal Ripken or someone, and he compares favorably to someone like Ripken (who almost no one would dispute belongs in the Hall). I think if you adjust by position, Larkin moves up to the Exceptional category.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions  

My problem with Larkin is the number of games he routinely missed

In 19 seasons in the majors he missed more than 30 games 12 times. Ripken never missed a game for what, 15 years? Ripken was also a much better fielder.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:05 AM MST up reply actions  

But in your methodology

are you taking into account the different types of positions that those people played?

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 11:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Yes I try to

That’s why I’d rank Larkin 4th out of everyone on this year’s ballot.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:14 AM MST up reply actions  

The problem I have with judgeing him against players already in the Hall

is that there are some players already in who don’t belong there so I don’t like doing that. (If I do, he has to be better than some of the players already there are his position)

I try to rank all the players on each ballot (first to last) and then place them into the four categories listed above. (I feel that once they are ranked it is easier to put them into these categories) Afterward I move some people up or down a category based on stuff like PED usage, big game player, ect…….

If I’m on the fence between great and exceptional, I usually bump the player down to great unless there is a reason along the lines of them being a great postseason player or something like that. That’s what happened with Larkin and Walker for me.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:36 AM MST up reply actions  

already there are at his position

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:41 AM MST up reply actions  

Are you expecting an invitation to vote some day?

I understand, and mostly agree with your methodology. But I also think that’s only one way of doing it, and within that there are different ways to subjectively weight the criteria.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 11:51 AM MST up reply actions  

HAHA

No I’m not. I realize that this is just my way of doing it and even within that there are different ways you can argue it.

It works for me though.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 12:07 PM MST up reply actions  

I think this is part of the trouble some have with Blyleven,

He was pitching a large bulk of his career in four man rotations, but only had one 40 start season and from 1975 to 1985 was relatively unreliable before becoming a rotation workhorse again. It seems you’re more forgiving of his injuries than Larkin’s or Walker’s.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 11:21 AM MST up reply actions  

Well he still had 16 season of at least 200 innings pitched and eight seasons of at least 250 innings pitched

He also had a six year stretch from 1971 through 1976 where he made at least 35 starts every year and another five year run from 1986-1990 where he made at least 33 starts a season.

Blyleven is a strange case but these two stretches bookending his career do much more for me in the reliability department than Larkin does.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:40 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm just saying those 200 IP seasons look great in our five man rotation perspective, but they don't mean quite as much

in the 1970’s and early 1980’s. That gap between 1976-1985 was a fairly substantial chunk of semi-reliability, sort of like Jorge De La Rosa. I still think the periods before and after make Bly a HOF, but I think you’re giving him too much credit for being “exceptional” beyond players like Walker or Larkin, who I also think are worthy.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 11:52 AM MST up reply actions  

So how would you rank them?

Bagwell, Walker, Larkin, and then Blyleven?

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 12:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Personally, I'd rank them Bagwell, Blyleven, Walker, Larkin.

But I think the WAR gap between Blyleven and Walker exaggerates the difference between their impacts on the game when they played, and the same is true of Larkin and Blyleven. Like you, I actually view all four of these players on the outside of who I’d consider truly elite, inner-circle types, and I think if I understand where you’re coming from in what you see as HOF worthy, my own subjectivity held to that standard would find all four lacking.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions  

That "exceptional" category is really tough but I think

I need to have it if I don’t want players who are just considered “great” in there. Bagwell and Blyleven clearly aren’t immortal or truly elite players but there comes a point where a guy’s numbers are just so good or they do it for so long that you have to let them in. It’s drawing that line between “exceptional” and “great” that’s both extremely difficult and extremely subjective. I draw it between Blyleven and Walker but that’s just my opinion.

I’m glad we agreed on the order though, that made it a lot easier :-)

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 12:33 PM MST up reply actions  

So out of curiosity, where would your arbitrary "exceptional" mark be for a RF?

Some place above the top ten or twelve all time, I’m guessing, or it would include Walker. Top eight? Would you have voted for Tony Gwynn, who ranks ninth all time in r-WAR among rightfielders (those that spent the bulk of their careers there) at 68.4, just ahead of Walker’s tenth place 67.3? Do you feel Harry Heilmann’s in the hall unjustly because he’d be just ahead of Gwynn. After that you’ll get into a tier of very memorable players like Reggie Jackson and Al Kaline and eventually move up to Ruth/Aaron territory, I’m just curious where you’d say your cutoff is for exceptionalism.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

This is really tough

but I’d probably say that Walker is the best right fielder I wouldn’t put in the Hall Fame.

I’d probably rank it something like this (Please go easy on me)

1) Ruth
2)Aaron
3) F. Robinson
4) Ott
5) Clemente
6) Crawford
7) Kaline
8) Waner
9) Jackson
10) Gwynn
11) Heilmann
12) Walker
13) Winfield

(Ichiro will have to go on this list someday too but we’ll hold off on that one)

Anyway, I’d give Gwynn a little more credit than WAR would just because of the model of consistency that he was. Eight batting titles and 19 straight seasons of hitting over .300 to go along with 3,000 hits gives him a little boost for me.

I’m embarrassed to say that I don’t know too much about Helmann so I put him at the bottom of the list of the guys I think should be in. (That 144 OPS+ number looks really impressive though)

Winfield’s a guy who’s in the Hall who I’d place behind Walker.

(I must say though, the more I look at Walker’s numbers the more I like him. He’s REALLY REALLY close for me)

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 3:15 PM MST up reply actions  

If you have him just above Winfield

and Winfield is in the Hall, why couldn’t you just squeak Walker into the Hall?

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 3:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Because Winfield wasn't an exceptional player in my mind

Yes he did collect 3,000 hits but he did that by being very good for a very long time and compiling numbers rather than being truly great. Only twice in his career did Winfield post an rWAR over 5.0 (1979 and 1984).

I also hate the idea of saying that someone deserves to be in the Hall because they have better numbers than someone else in the Hall. It’s this sentiment the dilutes the overall talent pool. I actually like to use the opposite measure. Is there anyone with better numbers who isn’t in the Hall?

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Although using that method with Walker I really can't find another

right fielder with better numbers who I think shouldn’t be in so I guess it’s really, really close even for me.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:26 PM MST up reply actions  

And that's why I asked, since everyone with better number IS in the Hall

and the only player on that list lower than Walker is already in the Hall, how could putting Walker, who is the best RF on the list not in the Hall, be taking anything at all away from the Hall of Fame?

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 9:13 PM MST up reply actions  

I just don't think he was exceptional long enough

to crack that category. It’s extremely subjective but that’s my honest opinion. You have to draw the line somewhere and that’s where I draw it. I can completely understand you disagreeing with me on this.

Look at the poll in the Rockpile today though. On a Rockies blog, he only got 60% approval. That’s not enough to get in.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 9:28 PM MST up reply actions  

True

And this is why the Hall of Fame is not a first ballot or bust situation.

by Rox Fever on Dec 22, 2010 9:35 PM MST up reply actions  

This is truly the best part of the voting

It allows us to see how players stack up after the era they play in is over.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 10:02 PM MST up reply actions  

I find the poll results here a little discouraging. Look on the poll at Bluebird Banter

Our Blue Jays blog, Where he got something like 85% last I checked (this is what wearing a Canada sweatshirt and Canucks hat gets, apparently). In the Hall of Merit voting that Jeff linked, he got over 70% from mostly non-Rockies fans.

I’m really surprised that of all people, Rockies fans can’t appreciate how great he really was.

by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2010 6:32 AM MST up reply actions  

The question "is Larry a HOFer?" seems to be asking if we think he'll get in, not whether he deserves to

I am sure people would be more likely to answer yes to the second question than the first. I assumed the first and answered “no” as a result.

by biondino on Dec 23, 2010 7:42 AM MST up reply actions  

I'll be easy, since this is pretty close to how I'd rank them.

I guess why I was asking is because I see that distinction between Gwynn/Heilmann and Walker as too fine to be able to justify a no vote for him, particularly given how the labor stoppages would have had a bigger impact on Walker (who had his age 27 and 28 seasons in strike years) than they would on Gwynn (who came in a season after 1981 and was already well past his prime by 1994).

I think it’s going to be pretty appalling if he gets dropped after the first year, but Whitaker (#7 all time at 2B) was a more egregious oversight. If Walker does survive the cut, maybe voters will take his case more seriously in future seasons, as I don’t know if many are actually doing a serious audit of the RF position in dismissing him.

He’s definitely close, either way, but I understand how we all have to draw a line somewhere and it makes sense how he’d be on the outside of yours.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 3:44 PM MST up reply actions  

I actually could argue the labor stoppage point the other way

1994 was Gwynn’s best year ever. In fact, he might have hit .400 if it wasn’t for the strike as he was at .394 at the time. He also had a higher OPS and OPS+ than Walker that year despite his age.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:31 PM MST up reply actions  

you say tomato, I say tomato...

you could argue that, but I think we both know where regression likely goes in that case if the season played out the rest of the way.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 8:38 PM MST up reply actions  

You're probably right on that (although we'll sadly never know for sure)

I wish we could have seen Gwynn chase that .400 number even though he likely would have fallen short. That would have been quite dramatic.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:44 PM MST up reply actions  

If I step away from my HOF World for a moment though

Walker really shoud get in though. There’s no right Fielder who’s not in the Hall that’s better.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:33 PM MST up reply actions  

In 19 seasons in the majors he missed more than 30 games 12 times

Do you take into account the fact that Larkin played most of those years on turf, and Ripken played his career on grass?. Turf accounts for a lot of leg and back problems in players from that era.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Dec 22, 2010 11:52 AM MST up reply actions  

Not as much when the difference is that substantial

I think you raise a good point here but the difference in reliability is just so enormous that you have to give Ripken a pretty large edge.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 12:10 PM MST up reply actions  

It's more the overall accomplishment of what it means to get into the Hall of Fame

Each player you let in who’s less than exceptional dilutes to talent in the Hall a little more.

For the record, I think a case can be made for both Walker and Larkin to be in the exceptional category; that’s why I listed them first and second on the great player list. I just personally think they fall just short.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 11:09 AM MST up reply actions  

Brewers sold 1,100 season ticket packages in a little over a day

After the Greinke trade. Sort of an interesting opportunity to look at the immediate economic impact of a move like that.

The average cost of a full season ticket plan appears to be about $2,500 (rounding down from the average of the full season ticket packages*81 games). Say half of the season ticket purchases were full season (550)*, that’s an extra $1.375M. Then assume the rest are 20 games packages. Guessing that those average out to 1/4 of $2,500 ($625), that’s $343,750. In total, Greinke may have added $1.719M in about a day and a half.

I have no basis for saying this.

by deacs on Dec 22, 2010 1:07 PM MST reply actions  

As a baseball fan

I love the Greinke trade.

It not only makes the Brewers better and sets up what could be a thrilling three team fight in the NL Central between the Cards, Reds, and Brewers but it also puts a star player on a team that will likely be contending for a playoff spot in September.

On the flip side, it adds more depth to an already solid Royals farm system and brings more hope that a once proud franchise may return to relevance in a couple of years.

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 1:59 PM MST up reply actions  

Perhaps the best part of that link
Also with strong cases, at least by the numbers, are Larry Walker and Rafael Palmeiro. Walker had the better peak, but often battled injuries throughout his career and hovered somewhere near the lower-middle region of the Hall of Fame Zone throughout most of the rest of his career. The primary knock against him is that he played for many years at Coors, but these data account for that run environment. Given his magnificent peak (his MVP year was a 9 WAR season!), and the fact that he was a plus fielder at his position (Total Zone likely underrates plus fielders), I think it’s appropriate to give him the nod.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

I meant to write that in the article, but 1500 words in I got lost.

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by Jeff Aberle on Dec 22, 2010 7:15 PM MST up reply actions  

This is pretty awesome

Sandy Koufax’s perfect game reconstructed using gingerbread

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by Muzia on Dec 22, 2010 1:27 PM MST reply actions  

awesome.

just awesome.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 1:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Wow.......that's amazing

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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh. My. God. That's Awesome

Though the light towers are still too phallic.

Anyway, all we need now is for someone to recreate the 2007 WC play in game in Xtranormal.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions  

I want to eat the light tower

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 1:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Hey. I'm the one

who gets to make the phallic shaped food jokes around here.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 1:55 PM MST up reply actions  

That's awesome

great find Muzia

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
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JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 3:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Did he know it was your birthday?

Very cool, regardless!

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.

I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.

"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter

by RdRnnr on Dec 22, 2010 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanked him for his time with the Rockies, wished him luck

by Andrew Martin on Dec 22, 2010 2:49 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Did you ask him to sign a AAA contract with the Springs in 2012?

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

GTFO!

Details please

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Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 1:59 PM MST up reply actions  

What?!?!?

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 1:59 PM MST up reply actions  

does he know how much you've been dissing him on the Row?

You probably met him because he was hunting you down for a special birthday “surprise”.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 2:00 PM MST up reply actions  

Hey, my player review was downright sentimental

by Andrew Martin on Dec 22, 2010 2:01 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

So did you mention you had written about him?

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.

I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.

"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter

by RdRnnr on Dec 22, 2010 2:04 PM MST up reply actions  

yeah, you’re probably lucky about that. It must have given him some second thoughts. Otherwise, he would have gone all January 1963 on you, I’m guessing.

by Rox Girl on Dec 22, 2010 2:06 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh, I dunno

Manny seems like the sentimental type, and may have gone all December 1963

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 2:18 PM MST up reply actions  

That's pretty cool. Were you introduced, or did you just recognize him and go talk to him?

I’m not one who is big for meeting celebrities, but I think that would have been fun.

Still, I just got an e-mail holiday greeting from the entire Rockies organization, so I think I win…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

SD Cat 09 is still awesome

by Junction Rox on Dec 22, 2010 2:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Do you find it interesting that

Todd isn’t on the Christmas card?

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 2:56 PM MST up reply actions  

I thought the same thing until I realized they put the future on it.

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Dec 22, 2010 3:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Are you at Coors today?

Come on RMN we want the details of your meeting with Corpas!

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2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 2:48 PM MST up reply actions  

You mean

I was in there before you?

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 2:49 PM MST up reply actions  

I guess it means

that I love baseball more than you.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 2:59 PM MST up reply actions  

I must hate baseball, then

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 4:25 PM MST up reply actions  

And yet, your sideburns are still waiting for you at will call

;-)

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 4:24 PM MST up reply actions  

LOL...Okay that's funny

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Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 4:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Now that's not entirely fair

Maybe he has a poorly shaped razor

Optimism Warrior
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Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
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by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 4:29 PM MST up reply actions  

I love how smug you look in this picture.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 4:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Smug? I think he looks a little like

WTH with a smirk..and (slightly stoned)

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 4:39 PM MST up reply actions  

LOL...my god it totally works on him

His new nickname must be Mr. Pringles henceforth

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 4:45 PM MST up reply actions  

This gets the rec...

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

SD Cat 09 is still awesome

by Junction Rox on Dec 22, 2010 4:46 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm posting more in the OT thread.

Hebrew National Hot Dogs - The Official Hot Dog of the Colorado Rockies.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by hotdoglady on Dec 22, 2010 4:47 PM MST up reply actions  

This is funny

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 4:54 PM MST up reply actions  

OK so anyhow

We went on the Coors Field tour today, and we first went into the Diamond Dry Goods store because we didn’t see the one open ticket booth.

I walk in and there’s Manny Corpas, just hanging out with 2 little kids. I went up and basically said hi, I enjoyed watching you play, good luck in FA, shook his hand. So at that point I said “oh, are these your kids?” to which he responded that one was and the other was his cousin’s, and it was their first time in the states. He had hoped to get to the field from the store (rather than go into the stadium, down through the tunnel, etc) but the door to the concourse was locked.

Great story, I know, but it definitely added to the day.

by Andrew Martin on Dec 22, 2010 6:44 PM MST up reply actions  

At least you

weren’t the only one lost

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Dec 22, 2010 6:46 PM MST up reply actions  

cool story bro .....no really!!!!

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Dec 22, 2010 6:47 PM MST up reply actions  

That really is cool.

So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?

Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?

by Mondogarage on Dec 22, 2010 7:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Awesome man

That was a neat birthday present for you

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 8:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Here's a neat

piece from Jayson Stark

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 22, 2010 9:10 PM MST reply actions  

LOLCORZ
• Dan Haren gave up four home runs at Coors Field in one start (May 27) — while facing 29 hitters. Ubaldo Jimenez gave up four home runs at Coors all season — while facing 416 hitters. And what did the last 238 hitters Ubaldo faced at Coors have in common? None of them got to work on his home run trot.

Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.

by ShadowPenguin on Dec 23, 2010 12:44 AM MST up reply actions  

What's funny about the game Haren gave up four home runs is

there was actually a stretch where he was very good that day. Between a Tulo Home Run in the first and a Cargo double in the 6th, Haren sent down 13 Rockie hitters in a row. So he actually pitched half a perfect game and gave up four Home Runs in the same outing. That’s crazy!!!!!

100 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 23, 2010 8:40 AM MST up reply actions  

I was at that game.

It was freaking hot. But the game was awesome.

by holly96 on Dec 23, 2010 9:52 AM MST up reply actions  

Did you have a good seat?

99 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 23, 2010 10:03 AM MST up reply actions  

Pretty good, yeah.

Lower deck, along the 1B side of RF.

by holly96 on Dec 24, 2010 2:53 PM MST up reply actions  

What's more funny about that game

is that I predicted Haren would give up 3 HR that day in the prediction competition

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 25, 2010 3:33 PM MST up reply actions  

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