Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

Wednesday Rockpile: Division rivals could get crunched by arbitration; O'Dowd denies interest in Wellemeyer

A pair of divisional rivals seem more likely to face arbitration hearings with important rotation parts. Neither the Giants and Tim Lincecum nor the Diamondbacks and Edwin Jackson have been able to resolve their different opinions of the players' value. In both cases, the teams are already close to (or in the D-backs case, over) their projected 2010 salary levels, so player wins in these arbitration hearings could conceivably help the Rockies this season by making it more difficult for the Giants and Snakes to add help later.

****

Other than that, for the Rockies Tuesday was notable for who's not going to be part of the team:

For instance, the Rockies aren't going to sign Joe Beimel, according to a Troy Renck report.

****

The second person the Rockies aren't signing has something to do with a subject I meant to bring up this past weekend, namely a comparison of the different recovery timelines of Brandon Webb and Jeff Francis.

Star-divide

 

In their most recent Rowbot Radio podcast, Andrew and Greg brought up Francis' situation again and shared their thoughts so be sure to listen to that, but it did get me to thinking. As fans, we're sort of left in the dark when it comes to athlete injuries and what to expect in their recovery from surgery, as most of us are not practicing physicians. What we can do, however, is look for certain flagposts along the way that tell us how far out they are. In Francis' case, let's go back to the Denver Post report from a month ago, and here's the key quote:

 

He threw well in simulated games in September and followed that with a strong showing in the Arizona instructional league. That left him to proceed through an uninterrupted winter program - long toss, and starting next week, mound work - which will be capped with a 10-day stay in the Dominican Republic before spring training.

We haven't received any reports of setbacks or changes to the schedule, and more importantly, the club's actions still haven't been showing any signs of second thoughts. The closest to this would be the reported interest in Todd Wellemeyer, which Dan O'Dowd categorically denied yesterday.

Instead, there's a possibility that money that may have been held back just in case another starter would need to be found late was shifted and helped spur the Rockies late involvement with Orlando Cabrera and Felipe Lopez before they settled with Melvin Mora. The main point here is that the team's actions, or more precisely inaction, when it comes to the rotation is speaking volumes, and it's not saying "we trust Greg Smith or Franklin Morales will hold us through" nearly as much as it's saying "Francis is ready to be effective from day one."

If you need more encouragement, take a look at Brandon Webb, who many see kind of as a Francis parallel (as far as the injury situation, not as far as expected contribution). Webb was reportedly set to start throwing off a mound for the first time yesterday, or about three weeks behind Francis. Webb expects to be ready for opening day, although if you read this article, the Arizona organization seems to be a bit more skeptical of that, with manger A.J. Hinch suggesting he may be a couple of weeks behind. Webb didn't throw simulated games last fall as Francis did, instead, he just played "catch four times".

This is what a candidate for an extended Spring stay will usually look like. On the other hand, Francis is seemingly somewhere between that and being so ready for 2010 that he could have joined a winter league team. Additionally, if necessary, the Rockies could give him almost an extra week by slotting him fourth or fifth in the rotation so he'd be targeted for the home opening series against the Padres rather than the first road series against the Brewers.

The second question Rowbot Radio broached on him, of how effective Francis will be in 2010, is probably what everybody really wants to know. I think most of us writing here are trying to be outwardly cautious with this, but I have to let you guys know that inside, I'm pretty giddy. Right now, Francis and Carlos Gonzalez are why I'm thinking that the Rockies are not going to be as close to the rest of the division as projections are seeing. I know stuff can go uncannily wrong for the team or uncannily right for other squads, but if Jeff really is back to his 2004 Tulsa form; we'd be looking at that 3.5 to 4 win pitcher he was in 2006 and 2007. I said awhile ago that the Rockies don't need Francis to be that good and still be competitive, but if he is, they should have added separation from the rest of the division that a lot of analysts don't seem to be expecting.

 

I think the Rockies rotation overall does take a small step back this season about a win or so, but I'm in the camp that they will still likely be the best in the division in value after park effects are taken into account.


Comment 198 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Giants just signed the mighty Wellemeyer to

a minor league deal

TULO = 2010 MVP!

Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."

LETS GO WINGS!

by TuLoRocks2008 on Feb 10, 2010 10:15 AM MST reply actions  

Francis

Even if Francis can just get 10 wins and keep an ERA around 4.00 (or less), I would think it would be a successful comeback season. I thnk Ubaldo and De La Rosa will get 15+ wins this year, then throw in Cook maybe with 12 wins, and Hammell 10 wins, that is a pretty good staff. We though need to get Bucholz back by mid/late season though!

A Rockies fan living in St. Louis "Cardinals HELL" GO ROCKIES!

by denverfan12 on Feb 10, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions  

He'd also be setting a career low ERA.

"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.

by Russ Oates on Feb 10, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

good catch

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 10:48 AM MST up reply actions  

Posted in the last rockpile, worth reposting here.

Part two of AZ Snakepit’s interview with Josh Byrnes is up.

AZ: Looing at the other NL West teams in 2010, it seems like a fairly-even division. Who would you say poses the biggest threat?

JB: I think, right now, the Rockies. Obviously, the Rockies and the Dodgers made the playoffs last year, and deserve the status associated with that, and I think the Rockies saw a little bit less attrition through the off-season. Bring Jeff Francis back and retaining Betancourt, and some of their young players will probably get more opportunities – Carlos Gonzalez, Ian Stewart. – so they’re a pretty solid team. A team as good as they are, as deep as they are; their starting pitching was really solid. de la Rosa and Hammel stabilized it. I agree, it’s a balanced division and a lot of teams can make the argument, "playoff worthy," "90 wins", whatever. But I think, right now, the Rockies probably have the fewest questions.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 10:21 AM MST reply actions  

Good stuff

I also like how he compliments the Rockies depth a bit further down.

Having depth is great: again, I give the Rockies a lot of credit, because they had depth, they had a lot of players whose playing-time was a bit compromised. But they bought in, and it was a real strength of theirs, that they managed the situation with the Ianetta/Torrealba situation; Seth Smith, Dexter Fowler, Carlos Gonzalez, and the rotation of that; Atkins and Stewart and Barmes. Having depth and having a real team dynamic is a very powerful thing.

Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.

by ShadowPenguin on Feb 10, 2010 2:35 PM MST up reply actions  

Patrick Saunders kindly emailed me

To say he’d like to use my question for Jim Tracy! (not that that’s a guarantee, I’m sure, but nice to get such a positive response – I wonder if my being British – and mentioning the fact – helped?)

by biondino on Feb 10, 2010 10:23 AM MST reply actions  

Being a Brit

is a hook they look for.

"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.

by Russ Oates on Feb 10, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions  

I got a nice email saying

that he liked some of my questions. I wasn’t sure if that was a compliment or not. :)

I hope the row dominates with great questions.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions  

Wellemeyer!?! Giants!

Well, lets hope Wellemeyer makes the Giants club, I seen him pitch for the Cards…he will get ROCKED if you know what I mean!

A Rockies fan living in St. Louis "Cardinals HELL" GO ROCKIES!

by denverfan12 on Feb 10, 2010 10:25 AM MST reply actions  

Self-castration is rough.

Wait, is that even a good joke?

"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.

by Russ Oates on Feb 10, 2010 12:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Jamie McCourt mishandles Wang?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 10, 2010 1:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Remember, kids, always wear a wang derby when you lay down with a lady of the night.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Feb 10, 2010 3:07 PM MST up reply actions  

I see all these new comments, I excitedly click to open the story...

and it’s all Wang jokes. Good job PR.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Feb 10, 2010 4:11 PM MST up reply actions  

At least it's not panda porn

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 4:13 PM MST up reply actions  

This made me lol.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.

by A.J. Haefele on Feb 10, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

Ned Colletti spends day watching Wang.

Dodgers very interested in Wang.
Wang rising again following injury.
Nationals grab Wang in last minute signing.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 10:36 AM MST up reply actions  

this
Wang rising again following injury.

made me lol

Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Feb 10, 2010 10:39 AM MST up reply actions  

last year i correctly noted that

Wang was getting beaten badly. Someone commented that she had been enjoying this website until my display of adolescent inappropriate jokes. Or something like that

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 11:08 AM MST via mobile up reply actions  

yeah geez grow up pf

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 11:09 AM MST up reply actions  

Rox Girl,

You’re making it awfully hard to keep the “cautiously” in “cautiously optomistic.”

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 10, 2010 10:33 AM MST reply actions  

from Keith law's twitter

The cf wall at citi field will he lowered right feet “they will also shorten the basepaths to 45 feet and allow their 7-9 hitters to hit off a tee”

Retweet from eric stengel: “the mets are lowering their center field wall. They want to do all they can to make sure they lead the league in blown saves”

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 11:38 AM MST via mobile reply actions  

They'll still only win 78 games

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 11:39 AM MST up reply actions  

lowered *eight feet

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 11:39 AM MST via mobile up reply actions  

They kept mentioning Webb on XM HomePlate

Last night and this morning. Apparently he did throw off the mound yesterday. There was a great deal of banter regarding how critical he is to their rotation, blah, blah, blah. No mention of Francis and the impact he will have on our rotation.

Sometimes it irks me this team doesn’t get talked about more, but on the other hand, it’s good. It will allow us to sneak up on people.

by Prospector on Feb 10, 2010 11:38 AM MST reply actions  

Well, at the same time

Webb was a stud, won a Cy Young and finished 2nd in 2 others.

Francis won 17 games once

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 11:40 AM MST up reply actions  

How many NLCS wins does Webb have?

I can’t remember.

Donate to charity by shopping for Purple Row Merchandise at:
Purple Row Cares

by Charlie77 on Feb 10, 2010 8:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Basing any one argument on one singular game is just silly

A couple different bounces and the entire argument would be reversed.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 9:10 PM MST up reply actions  

he doesn't have any

just so happens he’s a far better pitcher than Jeff Francis.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 9:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Can anyone explain what the Giants are doing with Timmah?!?

Do they really think 8 is a fair number? Do they really not see that they’re poisoning the relationship? Do they not know that someday he’ll be a real free-agent with real options? Or they really this dumb?

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 11:42 AM MST reply actions  

That absolutely baffles me as well

this is a perfect spot for Jabbs to tune in, but neither side has budged, and the Giants are going to lose arguably the best pitcher in baseball in like 2 or 3 years.

That said, can you imagine how much he’ll make on the open market?

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 11:43 AM MST up reply actions  

There is probably pressure on the FO

to not submit a record breaking number. It’s just the nightmare that is arbitration.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions  

but not even budging? It's like they're standing on principle or something

and that principle is apparently “we’ll pay garbage baseball players way too much and not pay the best in baseball what he should be making”

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 11:45 AM MST up reply actions  

If they stay at $8M and it goes to a hearing

then it will probably wind up at $10.5M considering they usually split the difference. That would break Ryan Howard’s record. If they put up a bigger number, less than the $13M he wants it would just drive the final number higher.

Timmy is a pretty unique case though given his age and awards which will play very heavily in his favor at the hearing. At this point they can still settle on a contract but Timmy & his agent haven’t seemed to be pleased with what’s been offered so far at all.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 11:56 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure that arbitration is winner-take-all

They can’t split the difference.

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 11:58 AM MST up reply actions  

If the offer is part of a negotiating stregy, and they settle before arb, then it makes sense (sorta)

But nothing looks like they are getting close to a settlement, and Timmy and his agent HAVE to know that the arbitrator is likely to laugh the Giants offer out of the room!

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 12:05 PM MST up reply actions  

I think they assumed they could get a contract before the hearing.

I still don’t understand why they’ve only talked about a 2yr deal. They may just be less confident that he’ll avoid injury, that’s about the only way it even begins to make sense.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 12:45 PM MST up reply actions  

It seems like putting in such a low offer

would actually hurt their negotiating position. Lincecum and his agent know that the odds of the arbitrator siding with them is greater than if the Giants had made a reasonable offer, so there is no pressure for them to agree to a contract. Plus, they probably don’t want to do anything long term now because the Gints have shown they don’t want to pay him fairly.

by RoxnSox09 on Feb 10, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions  

If it goes to a hearing it will be 8 or 13 million

Those middle numbers come from the sides settling before the hearing. Once it goes into hearing the arbitration panel has to choose one or the other

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 10, 2010 11:58 AM MST up reply actions  

He won't make any money on the open market

As his right arm will have torn free from his tiny frail body.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 11:45 AM MST up reply actions  

I've been patiently awaiting his arm to break off

and so far he’s disappointed me. Hopefully for the Rockies’ sake his drop in velocity is a sign of things to come.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 11:58 AM MST up reply actions  

I love Timmeh

I pay money just to watch that man pitch.

Attention Whore.

by Muzia on Feb 10, 2010 12:03 PM MST up reply actions  

I sorta don't like him that much

And wonder if I’d even like him if he pitched for the Rockies (but I probably would).

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 12:11 PM MST up reply actions  

wait...wat?

you don’t Timmah? Do tell why

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 10, 2010 12:43 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't really have very good reasons

I don’t like his long hippie hair. He seems to think a lot of himself. I also have this anti-hype backlash against athletes who are endlessly touted by the press. When everyone – or, more specifically when a large portion of writers whom I dislike – fawns over someone (or a team, like the Red Sox or Cubs), then I reflexively dislike that player, and when everyone bags on someone, I tend to root for them. This is part of the reason that I rooted for the Yankees this past World Series: writers who like the Red Sox slammed the Yankees for the past decade, so I wanted them to win to shove it in the faces of all those writers. It’s very complicated, and I only slightly understand it myself. It’s a gut reaction thing.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 12:58 PM MST up reply actions  

ohhh well that's cool

I was thinking you didn’t like him as far as talent wise?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 10, 2010 1:07 PM MST up reply actions  

No no no

He’s an awfully good pitcher.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 1:10 PM MST up reply actions  

I've always viewed him as somewhat of an underdog

since nearly every team thought his delivery would prevent him from being a major league pitcher. He’s done a great job proving everyone wrong (I just wish it was in a different division). Plus his delivery and domination is quite a sight to watch.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 1:12 PM MST up reply actions  

I would LOVE to have Timmeh

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 10, 2010 1:14 PM MST up reply actions  

The Giants should place a dollar..

on the mound for Timmeh to pick up everytime he throws the ball. Even warmup pitches.

Donate to charity by shopping for Purple Row Merchandise at:
Purple Row Cares

by Charlie77 on Feb 10, 2010 8:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Maybe that will somewhat make up for the

despicable offer they made him…

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 10, 2010 9:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, Lincecum will have four years of arbitration eligibility as a Super Two player...

the thing with the Lincecum hearing is that both sides will agree that he is awesome. They will disagree about precedent, or in Timmah’s case the lack thereof. Problem for the Giants is, Lincecum’s resume is incredible any way you look at it and the $5 million gap is a poor choice. If I were the Giants, I’d have submitted a $10 million offer.

I’ll write about this in more detail when I get time for PR Academy (likely Friday/Saturday), but I think that Lincecum will win this case handily.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Feb 10, 2010 12:06 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah

If they don’t sign him long-term prior to his final arbitration seasons. and he wins this year with 13 million I don’t envy the financial package they’ll be paying him his last year of arb.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 10, 2010 12:08 PM MST up reply actions  

I wonder if their strategy is to joinj us in hoping that his arm falls off before that happens.

At least that way they get all the value out of him!

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 12:10 PM MST up reply actions  

that boggles the mind

I have serious doubts it gets to the 4th year of arbitration

Attention Whore.

by Muzia on Feb 10, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm looking forward to this.

I know there are a lot of people here who are smarter than me, and I hope that somebody can make some sense of this.

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 12:08 PM MST up reply actions  

I totally agree

I was offended by their offer. Imagine how he feels.

I believe in a risen Francis

by Rawktober on Feb 10, 2010 1:11 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

If the Giants do lose him

a) serves them right
b) can you imagine the Golden Gate Bridge-jumping by the McCoven?

I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?

by Silverblood on Feb 10, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions  

I can't imagine the Giants losing him unless they actually do believe that he's going to have arm troubles sooner rather than later in his career

Or unless they’re being managed excessively poorly. It doesn’t make sense from any perspective to lose him. He helps you win games, he’s a fan favorite and he draws crowds.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 12:25 PM MST up reply actions  

unless they’re being managed excessively poorly

hmmmmm…..

Attention Whore.

by Muzia on Feb 10, 2010 12:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah yeah yeah

But I really don’t think they’re being managed that badly.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions  

But it would be fun to watch if it did happen

I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?

by Silverblood on Feb 10, 2010 12:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah

You don’t let a guy like that go unless his arm actually does fly off and hit the ump.

I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?

by Silverblood on Feb 10, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions  

And even then

You try to sew it back on and see if he can still throw a few more sliders.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Another helpful tip to Giants fans from your friends at PurpleRow

LOL

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

by RdRnnr on Feb 10, 2010 7:49 PM MST up reply actions  

I can just picture the Giants trying to defend the 8 million in the arb hearing

“Aww come on!!! 8 million is more than fair for a guy who hit .152 last year.”

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 2:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Now there are reports that the Giants had offered 3y/$37M

Timmy countered with something over $40M and they haven’t talked in a few days. They still have time to get a deal done.

by phishbate on Feb 11, 2010 8:44 AM MST up reply actions  

If I had a vote

I would have given the CY nod to him over Carp just to drive his price up

Heard a singer on the radio late last night
He says he's gonna kick the darkness
'til it bleeds daylight

by TomCat009 on Feb 10, 2010 12:22 PM MST reply actions  

One day — perhaps it will come this season — Jimenez will understand just how much better he is than nearly every hitter he faces and begin to dominate for weeks at a time, rather than innings at a time.

I really hope that this comes about.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 1:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree, it's been amazing to see his growth

in talent and confidence but he could easily shut down games with the right mindset. I feel good about his chances in 2010 especially given the total belief Tracy showed in him last year. I can’t remember which game it was but when he came out to the mound with one or two outs left while uball was struggling a bit I thought it was a true turning point for uball and the team as a whole. That moment really encapsulated the kind of faith Tracy was showing in the team.

by phishbate on Feb 10, 2010 1:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Meanwhile someone writes this turd

Link

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 10, 2010 1:24 PM MST reply actions  

that's just embarrassing

‘lets name ten great baseball players and say how they’d be good for a given baseball team’, I’d call this lazy hack writing on a Yankees blog, on a national sports website it’s just plain embarrassing.

Campaigning for more day baseball games since 2006

by djmbluemoon on Feb 10, 2010 1:50 PM MST up reply actions  

"Let's name 10 guys who would be awesome on the Yankees"

let’s name 10 guys who would be awesome no matter who they played for because they’re AWESOME PLAYERS.

What a garbage piece.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

This

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 2:26 PM MST up reply actions  

What's the point of Klapisch'

He names 3 starting pitchers, 2 first basemen, 3 outfielders, a catcher and a second basemen.

They need… maybe one of those things? Why do people waste clicks on a keyboard with the idea that the Yankees spend for the fun of it? They are excessive; however, they don’t buy excess. That means they don’t double down on all-stars at the same position.

Plus, they are surely going to be on a kamikaze mission to keep Jeter in pinstripes until the end of days. If you want to root for the demise of the Yankees, root for them to sign Jeter to a 4/$100M contract. Between that, CC, A-Rod and Tex, in about 5 years the Yanks are going to be old and bloated.

As a reporter, and one who wrote for a NJ paper covering the Yankees, is he not aware that when the Yanks missed the ‘08 playoffs they lost money? They can’t go much beyond $200M while maintaining profitability. If their play slips and interest wanes, which will happen once the long-term contracts age (because they won’t be tradeable), they won’t be able to be anywhere near $200M again.

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 2:25 PM MST up reply actions  

they don’t double down on all-stars at the same position.

AROD was playing short before he got there.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 2:28 PM MST up reply actions  

They signed him to play third base

not short. They didn’t then go out and sign Tejeda to back up Jeter, which is my point. They can’t carry $20M players at the same position. Nor could they have a $100M rotation, a $60M outfield, a $80M infield, and a billion dollar bullpen.

The Yankees aren’t worse than AIDS or Hitler, and it would be nice if someone was willing to acknowledge that.

High payrolls are the Dodgers fault, anyway.

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 2:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Also

they didn’t break up the Beatles, shoot John Lennon, cancel “Arrested Development” or kill Bambi.

Bob Klapisch did.

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 2:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Nobody here is accusing the Yankees of being worse than AIDS or Hitler

We’re simply looking at the Yankees in a baseball context and from that standpoint, we don’t like the way they do business. In a baseball context it’s perfectly acceptable to hate the Yankees. As RMN said in one of these threads; the Yankees don’t have to be smart to be good.

And I’m not sure it you’re reffering to the Yankees rotation/infield/outfield/bullpen payroll individually or all together but the Yankees infield payroll alone is over 80 million dollars.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 3:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Collectively

I get the point you’re (all) trying to make, but people have been making it for ten years. It’s not even a dead horse anymore, it’s a rotting carcass. It’s like picking on the fat kid in high school 15 years after you’ve graduated. Yeah, he eats a lot of cake, but it doesn’t do him any good. Yeah, the Yankees spend a lot, but it doesn’t always mean they win.

Instead of complaining about it, teams figured out ways to beat it: signing talented young players early to avoid expensive arbitration or free agency, stopped signing aging talent to large contracts in the hope they’d hit homeruns like they were 27, put a premium on cheaper, defensive oriented players, and ceasing to pay position player pricing to relievers who pitch 40 or 50 innings per year.

It goes on, and it doesn’t apply to every team, but it has made an impact. There are fewer gigantic free agent classes, and fewer young players for the Yankees to absorb. If these trends continue, and the Yankees keep committing to players through their mid-late 30s, the Yankees will be lucky to win a World Series every ten years.

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 6:57 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree with you

but this was really bad. Like super really bad…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 7:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, Klapisch is beyond the pale

I think Klapisch knows the premise is nonsense, and intended the piece to be the usual February BS that would get hits and rile people but mean nothing.

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 10:17 PM MST up reply actions  

but they'll make it to the playoffs 9 years out of 10

I understand it’s beating a dead horse, I guess, but the issue is that nobody’s burying the horse.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 8:42 PM MST up reply actions  

There wasn't a whole lot of parity in the AL in the past decade.

Will the Angels and Red Sox make it 6 out of 10 years? Will the Twins and A’s will make it 5 out of 10? I guess the chances for those teams to maintain their playoff appearance percentage is the same decade to decade?

And, what about the Braves winning the NL East 11 straight years? They had a top 5 payroll for 8 of those ten years, and clearly imported talent (Maddux, McGriff, etc).

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 10:50 PM MST up reply actions  

The Braves were not spending 50-60 million dollars more than the next highest team though

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 11:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Here's the thing

The AL Central sucks right now. The AL West has sucked for awhile.

The AL Wild Card has come out of the AL East 6 of the past 10 years, and it’s been either Boston or New York each time. 8 of those 10 years, New York has taken the division, 1 wild card, and then missed the postseason entirely in 2008 – which was just superduper.

The ALC is a crapshoot typically, and the AL West is about to get more interesting, but if you look at the WC standings each year, the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels are typically 5-10 wins above the next highest WC slot. For the Angels, this speaks to the competition in the AL West the past 5 years, but in the AL East, it’s not as if Toronto has been playing dead or anything, and while Tampa has hardly provided any real competition, they have fielded a better-to-good team since 2007 and still Boston and NY are crushing them.

The idea is that while other teams might make runs at it every year, they have windows of opportunity they need to take advantage of before burning the whole thing down and starting over.

Because the Yankees and Red Sox have the payroll to plug holes, their windows will never really close.

I’m not even saying “TEHY SIGN EVERY1” but look at the Yankees’ offseason – trading for Grandy and Vazquez. Granderson was supposedly not a payroll dump, and really, it’s a smart move, but the Vazquez trade was a salary dump for Atlanta.

The difference is that while other teams make smart moves looking long term, as far as freeing up salary and bringing in a young replacement, the team that can take up that salary that needed to be freed up will get that player for at least a couple of years in their prime or at least the beginning of the downslope.

Holliday is the example I think of, sort of. We got a great return on him, and frankly got lucky that Gonzalez took off the way he did down the stretch, but for most teams that get the young Austin Jackson type in return for their Curtis Granderson, but how long will it take for Austin Jackson to get to Granderson’s level of performance?

Both Holliday and Granderson are bad examples, because we know the circumstances with Holliday and Granderson really wasn’t making that much, but the point is that the Yankees can afford to take on salary that’s on the decline because even with the decline, he’ll still be positively productive.

Therefore, it doesn’t really matter how old the players are, they don’t have to make the wise decision moving forward, because there’ll always be some sort of productive salary dump that a rebuilding team will need to make.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 11, 2010 9:41 AM MST up reply actions  

Characterization of Granderson and Javy

You’re clearly right about Javy being a salary dump; and yeah, NOBODY in the league (probably not even the Red Sox right now) can afford to pay what the Yankees pay for their top 3, and then pay someone like Vazquez $14M or whatever. That was an opportunistic trade for the Yankees, but just as opportunistic for the Braves, as it allowed them to trade an area of excess for them (SP) and free up money to sign other players to fill multiple holes.

As for Granderson, I’d say that had at least something to do with money, even though the players exchanged ended up being a decent distribution of talent for a three way. But would Granderson have been traded if the Tigers hadn’t raped their system to trade for Cabrera, and let Ordonez’s option exercise? Probably not.

Both of those teams over-committed to players that couldn’t fill the needed roles. For the Braves, they’re saddled with Lowe’s contract. For the Tigers, Ordonez doesn’t hit much or play defense, Cabrera’s defense at third necessitated a shifting of players around the field and spending money on SS and catcher FAs, and Guillen’s contract just blew for what they got back in the last 2 years.

Neither of those teams spent their money well, and it caught up to them.

What I’m saying is that, yes, 2009 was ridiculous for the Yankees. However, it took a lot of little things to go right for them: Damon, Matsui and Posada all had up years for their age; Hughes dominated in the bullpen, and nobody got hurt.

Now they have all these players locked up through their mid/late 30s, and some into their 40s. Sure, by 2014, they’ll have a bunch of players off their books and a lot of money to spend, but where are they going to spend it?

Players are being bought out of their arb years, and in a lot of cases into their first or second FA years. This means that premier players will be much older than they were in the 90s and early 00s when they do hit free agency. So, a) fewer premier players will be available, and b) the Yankees will be paying for one or two good years, and then the decline. Even with a $200M to spend, they won’t be able to fill their holes.

They have $95M committed through 2013! That’s a lot of money to spend, but what if one of their current high priced studs turns into a pumpkin (or a Giambi)? Then they’re saddled with $20M+ in sunk costs, and have to spend another $10-20M to replace that production. Even without that hypo injury, they still don’t have the flexibility it would appear.

If the recession continues for another year or so, and revenues decline (and frankly, if American attitudes about what constitutes a fiscal luxury finally change), the Yankees aren’t spending $200M/year.

If you want to blame someone for the AL East pilfering two playoff spots every year, blame Selig for the Wild Card. The Red Sox and Yankees each make expensive complimentary moves because they know they’re this close to a playoff spot and it makes sense to spend an extra $20M.

by deacs on Feb 11, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions  

Your points are lucid and well-spoken

and the way you put them, it’s hard to disagree with them.

the issue, as it always is, is that we don’t know what’s going to happen going forward.

The bottom line really is this:

10 Spending ability creates the ability to buy yourself out of bad situations.

20 Stupid spending doesn’t guarantee wins.

30 IF stupid spending != Wins GOTO 10

40 Win

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 12, 2010 10:34 AM MST up reply actions  

Thanks

I understand where you and RIRF are coming from. (Not to imply you guys HATE the Yankees, but) I grew up in NY, and absolutely hated the Yankees. My friends were so die hard it made me sick, and is what drew me to the Rockies. I totally believed the spending was ridiculous, but over time I’ve come to see it differently (also, I went to college and met some Red Sox fans and developed a reflex for defending the Yankees as a way of defending being from NY).

As I’ve now written a decent sized essay worth of comments (2,591 words), I’ll leave it at: you’re absolutely right that there’s no way to downplay the ability to spend money on top of money in order to correct problems, but the market is changing in a way that is not going to benefit the Yankees long-term (in large part, because they are going to be old and obligated to those old players for a lot of money).

I just wanted to try to move the conversation from “the Yankees buy the world” to teams are doing other things to spend money well and stay competitive for longer periods of time. I didn’t quite get there, but there’s a conversation for non-Yankees fans that doesn’t involve squarely the former.

Anyway, I enjoyed the back and forth.

by deacs on Feb 12, 2010 11:50 AM MST up reply actions  

as the small teams get smarter

it’ll be harder for the yankees to get the big guys.

Moving the conversation still, a lot of the onus will start to shift to the big players, the matt holliday’s, etc. They’ll KNOW where the big money is, and even if the yankees can’t just buy everyone, other players might make themselves available for said BUYING EVERYONE.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 12, 2010 11:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Very fair

I do hate the Yankees (as I’m sure you’ve seem in the other thred) so my view is bias. I think we both like the way the smart small market teams do business and are hopeful of their success in the future but have different ways of expressing it.

You want to focus on the exact moves the small market teams have made (which is the nicer way of doing it) and I like to point out how much of an advantage a team like the Yankees has over the small market team and then say how impressive it is that the small market team can compete with the Yankees.

I think our real disagreement here is about how much of an advantage the big market teams will have in a few years.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 12, 2010 1:43 PM MST up reply actions  

Please tell me you are not serious when you say the Yankees

will be lucky to win a World Series once every ten years if the current trends continue. Having a lot of players in their mid to late 30’s doesn’t automatically put you at a disadvantage. This year over half of the Yankees lineup (ARod, Jeter, Damon, Posada, and Matsui) were at least 34 and they didn’t seem to have much of a problem.

The Yankees payroll is talked about to death but that’s only because it’s so insanely out of control; and as much as it’s talked about, I still don’t think people realize how bad it has gotten. Think of it this way. The Red Sox (who are a big market team and waste copious amounts of money themselves) spent 80 million dollars less than the Yankees last season while they spent 50 million more than the Royals, and 60 million more than teams like the A’s and the Nats. This means that the Red Sox operated closer to teams like KC, Oakland, and Washington than they did the Yankees. This is pretty amazing when you consider that last year the Red Sox paid David Ortiz 13 million to hit .238, Jason Varitek 5 million to hit .209, Mike Lowell 12.5 million to play injured and run down, John Smoltz 5.5 million to post an 8.32 ERA, and Julio Lugo 9 million to play for St. Louis. The Red Sox are a big market team and should be grilled for many of the decisions they have made recently; but realize that last year they operated in a galaxy that is closer to some of the small market teams than the Yankees and you’ll start to see how enormous the Yankees advantage has become.

The issue of the Yankees payroll will always be talked about because many people will have a hard time giving them any credit for winning when they have access to that many more resources than everyone else.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 9:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Large Market vs. Large Market

means nothing on its face. The Red Sox payroll is low because they’ve had a stronger influx of young talent than the Yankees. While the Yankees have aging players in traditionally highly paid positions (A-Rod, Mo, Jeter, Posada) and young(er) players locked up for high salaries through their mid/late 30s (Tex, CC, Burnett), the Red Sox have younger talent at key positions that they haven’t yet had to pay premium prices (Youkilis, VMart, Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia).

A closer look at the Red Sox payroll reveals that it will jump to the $165M range this year, and much higher in future years as their younger players (through arbitration or backloaded deals) reach higher salaries their payroll is going to approach the Yankees. Even without their Much like the Yankees didn’t have nearly the highest payroll when they were winning their 96-00 WSeries, the Red Sox are going through a similar faze.

Damon and Matsui had up years after trending downward and are of limited/no defensive value. They gave great years, but the probability of them having good years in the future is questionable enough that teams weren’t willing to make much of commitment to them this off-season.

Here are three reasons why the Yankees will be lucky to sustain their success beyond 4 years:

1. By 2014, A-Rod will be 39, Tex will be 34, CC will be 34, and Jeter will be 40 if he’s still playing. Posada, Pettitte and Mo will be retired. Burnett will be gone. That’s at least 5 key players gone, and they’ll be responsible for paying Hughes, Cano and Joba if they continue to develop.

2. Where are they going to get the FAs to replace all of those guys? Look at the Tulo, Felix, Pedroia, etc deals. As more mutually beneficial deals are struck between teams and young talent, the FA pool will be limited. There will be some expensive FA signings, but are they going to be able to replace 5 key positions with premier players? Probably not.

3. Their farm system is sparse. Beyond Jesus Montero, there is little in the system. This precludes trades for young, arbitration talent, and necessitates signing FAs to pricier contracts. It takes time to develop cheap talent, and not much help is on the way in the next few years. “Ohh but they’ll just sign everyone!!!” Well, they had the holes and didn’t sign Lackey or Holliday or any pricey FA this off-season because there’s an outer-limit to their payroll. They lost money when their payroll was $209M in decent economic times; for the foreseeable future their payroll will need to be lower to turn a profit.

It just sounds petty to bitch about the Yankees, and ignore that the market is changing the way teams can win. The ’09 Yankees will be the last of their super-budget teams to win a World Series.

by deacs on Feb 10, 2010 10:15 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I've been agreeing with most of what you've been saying about this

I’ll add that I don’t really hate the Yankees that much (I do hate the Red Sox, but for different reasons than payroll), and I think that the Rockies’ approach to winning (develop young, talented players, sign them through their peak years, trade them for more farm help or let them go before they get really expensive) is a better way to go, so they can spend whatever they want. I’d rather win with Tulo, Ubaldo and Stewart than hired guns like Rodriguez, Sabathia and Teixeira.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 10:20 PM MST up reply actions  

I completely agree on the young player model

being more fn to watch. I find it so much more satisfying to root for teams that have to actually develop players instead of just paying for the best free agent available.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 11, 2010 12:50 AM MST up reply actions  

One thing I will say

is that I don’t think a lot of the mutually beneficial deals for young players buy out a lot of free agency years so the players will be a available, just slightly later….

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:57 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 11, 2010 12:51 AM MST up reply actions  

I hope you're right.

I really, really do but the Yankees payroll will continue to be around 200 million dollars for the foreseeable future. When players like Posada, Pettite, Jeter, Burnett, and Rivera are off the team, the Yankees will then just have 75-85 million more to spend on other players. While you make a lot of very strong points about the future of the free agent classes, I still don’t think it’s going to alter the Yankees model. There will be fewer good free agents but the Yankees will still get the best players available. It’s the teams that the Yankees outbid like the Mets and the Red Sox that are going to feel the pain from this because that’s where the bottom will drop out of the free agent market. The Yankees will continue to benefit both from signing free agents and from situations like the Javy Vasquez one this offseason where the Braves couldn’t afford the 11.5 million.

As far as the Red Sox go, 2010 will be the closest they have been to the Yankees payroll since 2002. (The Yankees have spent at least 57 million more than the Red Sox during each of the last seven seasons) The reason the Red Sox now have to go out and start spending like the Yankees by signing players like Lackey, Cameron, and Beltre is because their farm system has stopped producing good young players. In 07 the Red Sox saw guys like Lester, Papelbon, Ellsbury, Bucholtz and Pedroia all make contributions to their team. Since then Daniel Bard is the only guy they have produced. Now that they have had almost no good young players coming out of the minors (just like the Yankees) they have to go out and start spending like the Yankees. (It’s important to distinguish 2010 from previous years with the Red Sox because this is a little bit of a game changer for them. Their payroll this year and only this year moves them up a step from the past and closer to the Yankees personal stratosphere.)

And it’s perfectly acceptable to bitch about the Yankees payroll because lately spending lots of money = winning the World Series. (Red Sox 07, Phils 08, and Yankees last year) It was actually earlier in the decade when the Yankees payroll wasn’t quite as out of control and before other big market teams started chasing them that teams like the Marlins and Angels won with small payrolls. (There also a really, really strong correlation to spending money and making the playoffs)

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 11, 2010 12:47 AM MST up reply actions  

Money

The Yankees WILL continue to spend in the future, but will it be as effective as 2009? No, because (as I said in a post above replying to AMart), they will be paying for a) older players and b) fewer premier players.

For teams like the Tigers, Twins, Rockies, doing team friendly contracts for young stars means a better distribution of payroll, and more money to spread around the diamond. This may not impact the Yankees/Sox, but if they take the middling FAs off the market, then bigger market teams must compete for the few premier FAs out there, saddling them with either a less talented free agent or a monstrous contract.

You’re neglecting that the Yankees of the 90s won with young, self-developed talent, and then paid for that young talent, which limited their flexibility to fill future holes in the 00s. They spent a lot in the last ten years, but not necessarily effectively.

The Marlins are freaks at scouting and developing, so I don’t know what to say about that. But the Angels, shortly after winning the WS, had to pay for their young talent. So their payroll inflated like the Yankees of ‘00 to ’08. Not having the revenue resources of the Yanks, they couldn’t fix their mistakes, but it’s the same premise.

The Yankees also are a total anomaly in terms of ownership. There are lots of rich owners, but few teams that haven’t changed ownership in 40 years, that own their stadiums, own a TV network, and have a huge brand.

If you really want things to change quickly (quicker than the market changes that are currently taking place), advocate for a ban on augmenting payroll with organization-owned TV stations (not broadcast rights, but the revenues from the station), or limit the ways teams can augment payroll costs with revenues outside of baseball ops.

Also, the Sox have Casey Kelly coming soon, and Westmoreland and Reddick for the OF. Their system is in better shape than the Yanks.

by deacs on Feb 11, 2010 10:40 AM MST up reply actions  

This discussion is starting to dissolve into several smaller discussions

and I think has gone about as far as it can go. I don’t think I’m gonna change your mind and you’re not gonna change mine. I agree with a lot of the individual points you made but you’re not going to convince me that spending more twice as much money as more than half of the other teams in baseball isn’t a huge advantage (or that it won’t be a huge advantage in the furture).

I’ll just bring it back to my general stance on the issue.

Having a payroll as big as the Yankees should allow you to make the playoffs just about every season. Once the playoffs start, anything can happen. It doesn’t matter if you’re the Wild Card team or if you had the best record in baseball; short series can be fluky. (The best team will win more often but it’s still tough for them to get through three short series) Problem is that since the Yankees are going to be there just about every single year, they are going to win the World Series at least every once in a while whether they spend the money wisely or not.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 11, 2010 10:16 PM MST up reply actions  

Teams like the Twins, Rockies, and Rays

have to get everything right.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 11, 2010 10:18 PM MST up reply actions  

A couple or three things

1) I’d never argue that the Yankees being able to spend significantly more than any other team doesn’t constitute a huge advantage; it does. However, they don’t spend “double” the next highest team. The most they’ve spent relative to the second highest payroll is 62% more (‘09: 35%, ’08: 51%, ’07: 33%, 06: 62%, ’05: 60%, ’04: 45%, ’03: 30%, ’02: 16%, ’01: 2%, ’00: 3%). That’s a big advantage, but notice that the more they spent relative to other teams, the worse they did.

2) How much of an advantage does that much money give you? I don’t know. Here are the numbers of top 10 payrolls that made the playoffs over the last ten years, 2000-‘09: 4/10, 4/10, 4/10, 4/10, 6/10, 5/10, 3/10, 4/10, 5/10, 5/10. That’s a hell of an advantage when only one year was the distribution of playoff spots between teams in the top 1/3 and lower 2/3 even. As mentioned, the Red Sox and Angels both made the playoffs 6 times, and were in the top 1/3 the majority of the decade.

3) In what way did the 2007 Rockies “get everything right”? Or, the other two teams? The ‘07 Rockies went from dead to Wild Card in a month. For that month, they did everything right; the rest of the season was middling at best. The Rays were a joke for a decade, and while I’ve noted on this site before that it’s not all about having top draft picks, that didn’t help. The Twins played in a shitty division where everybody pounded the Tigers and Royals for most of the decade, and the division usually came down to a coin flip.

My point was never about all that other crap. It was simply:

There was a time when the Yankees spent money and lost. All through the 80s and early 90s. Instead of pissing and moaning about high payrolls, people should be looking at what other teams are doing to build sustainable runs to the playoffs, because as you said, once you’re there, anything can happen. The Twins and A’s both made the playoffs 5 times in the last decade. What did they do right?

Nobody ever asks, because they’re too busy worrying about the Yankees’ payroll. But, I’ve explained what they did right: taking a chance by buying out arb and 1/2 FA years, stopped signing 29-30-31-32 year old players to large or long deals, emphasized defense, and identified which skills deteriorate less quickly than others.

by deacs on Feb 12, 2010 9:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Who are you referring to here?

You’re neglecting that the Yankees of the 90s won with young, self-developed talent, and then paid for that young talent, which limited their flexibility to fill future holes in the 00s. They spent a lot in the last ten years, but not necessarily effectively.

What holes were they not able to plug? The only one I really see is CF, sort of (Damon started at CF and when Matsui started to deteriorate, he moved to LF), and RF.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 12, 2010 10:36 AM MST up reply actions  

Depth

I’m writing this, and it’s hard to say they had problems filling holes because – you’re right – they made the playoffs 9/10 years.

They had problems filling holes in the sense that they were a pretty bad at defense for most of the 00s, and that when Giambi was down, and after Bernie and Damon’s first year, first and CF were in bad shape (if you look at Giambi’s innings from ‘04 to ’08, there was plenty of time when a reserve was playing first). Because of monster contracts to defensive monstrosities Giambi, Damon and Matsui, there wasn’t money to defensively upgrade 1B, CF, LF (and RF, to an extent).

In ’06, for example, they were under water defensively (UZR) at: CF, RF, SS, 3B, 2B, 1B, and probably catcher.

Also, their SP was nothing great. Yeah, they spent a lot but they didn’t get much outside of early Roger Clemens, Mussina (sort of), and one year of CC (so far). Their bullpen was hodgepodge beyond Mariano, mostly because they didn’t develop their own people into good relievers (until the last couple of years) and overspent on crappy relievers (Farnsworth, Karsay, etc).

Their money is always plentiful, but not always spent wisely. Going back to what I’ve been saying about signing a bunch of 28 year olds to long term contracts, the Yankees are going to get old again in a few years, and with even more $20M contracts than they had in the ’00s, they may not be able to spend their way out of an aging team with poor defense and declining offense.

by deacs on Feb 12, 2010 11:34 AM MST up reply actions  

One might just attribute that to a general lack of emphasis on defense

many clubs hadn’t gotten on board the concept of defense being a high priority. The Rockies got on board this early, mostly due to pitching woes.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 12, 2010 12:00 PM MST up reply actions  

The person who wrote that is an

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 2:26 PM MST up reply actions  

A dumbass?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 2:27 PM MST up reply actions  

An ass in a hole?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 2:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Yep

Except without the in a part

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 2:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Whta a dumb dumb dumb article

I’m surprised he didn’t go further.
11. Babe Ruth
12. Mohammed Ali
13. Optimus Prime
14. Gandalf
15. Jesus
etc.

by biondino on Feb 10, 2010 4:46 PM MST up reply actions  

this made me laugh out loud in a restaurant

Very well played

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 6:00 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Optimus Prime

this made me laugh

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 10, 2010 6:00 PM MST up reply actions  

sdtf?

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 10, 2010 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

yes, but in a different way

our interactions make me laugh.

bio and fi2 just kind of pop in and say/do something hilarious

+1

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 6:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Hah!

Cheers RMN! I think FI#2 is a better gagster though – I produce so much drivel that occasionally I have to make decent contact. A bit like Clint Barmes.

by biondino on Feb 11, 2010 4:28 AM MST up reply actions  

blamb?

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 6:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Does that mean I only am amusing by proxy?

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Feb 10, 2010 7:00 PM MST up reply actions  

amusing and funny are 2 completely different things

shut up you know what you are

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 8:42 PM MST up reply actions  

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 7:46 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

YES.

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 8:43 PM MST up reply actions  

This pic makes sense..

because I heard Madonna likes to play with toys.

Donate to charity by shopping for Purple Row Merchandise at:
Purple Row Cares

by Charlie77 on Feb 10, 2010 8:59 PM MST up reply actions  

If he wants to see them

in pinstripes that badly, he should get someone to do some photoshopping.

"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.

by Russ Oates on Feb 10, 2010 2:27 PM MST up reply actions  

roflcopter (courtesy of the front page link to the aforementioned article)

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 9:54 PM MST up reply actions  

I also bet this took 10x the work as the entire written piece

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I dare you to post that picture over at Viva el Birdos :-)

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 10:04 PM MST up reply actions  

They'll just photoshop a Tulo version :(

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 10:08 PM MST up reply actions  

It was just a joke

I like Cards fans anyway.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 10:11 PM MST up reply actions  

I know

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 10:12 PM MST up reply actions  

They'd just be confused

as to why a guy who’s affiliated with 3 blogs – one on a MLB team which isn’t the Yankees, one on sabermetric analysis, and one on fantasy sports went through the trouble of making his first post that.

Hey, this all sounds kinda fun…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Disgusting

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 10:02 PM MST up reply actions  

That is one of the shittiest things I've ever read

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 7:33 PM MST up reply actions  

It makes me want to puke

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 9:22 PM MST up reply actions  

it just pisses me clean off is what it does

“as if the Yankees aren’t good enough already, what would they be like if they had YOUR best player too, because screw your team!”

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 9:24 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

makes me happy we have Tulo

because GOD FORBID THEY SUGGEST SUPPLANTING JETER

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 9:25 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Rec to both comments

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 9:30 PM MST up reply actions  

God forbid Jeter ever retires

because if Tulo becomes half of what he think he will, the Evil Empire will make him an offer he’d be hard pressed to refuse

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 10, 2010 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

If he ever signs with the Yankees I may have to kill myself

Just the thought of it makes me want to cry.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 9:36 PM MST up reply actions  

or the sox, either way

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 9:37 PM MST up reply actions  

All of the Red Sox fans I know really want Tulo

because they have had nothing but mediocre shortstops for several years now. I’m often asked what the Red Sox would have to give to Rockies to get him.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 9:54 PM MST up reply actions  

How about Lester, Papelbon, Bard and Pedroia

with Boston eating the salaries. Thinking a team would trade a super stud like Tulo with his contract is just short-sighted

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 10, 2010 10:10 PM MST up reply actions  

While most Red Sox and Yankee fans don't understand that

because they think the teams in the middle of the country exist to develop players for the big market teams.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 10:12 PM MST up reply actions  

There aren't enough players to replace Tulo

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 11, 2010 7:59 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I just don't understand the rationale behind it

it’s not even like he wrote this with a logic or any sort of desire to advance anything. If he tied in awesome free agent acquisitions to Yankee roster openings down the line/addressing areas of weakness (granted there are very few), then, while I’m sure people would still dislike it, it would have some sort of mental oomph behind it.

This was just something closer too oh, let me sort who the 10 best best players were last season and say ‘hey these people are like kinda good you know? so like they could be good for the Yankees?’

Lazy and boring…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 9:52 PM MST up reply actions  

and selfish and arrogant.......

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 9:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Hey, on the bright side

I found an article that talks about 10 players who’d look good in a Rockies uniform.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Ten players who would look good in PURPLE pinstripes :-)

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 10:07 PM MST up reply actions  

After looking at this again

I’m wondering why Zack Greinke and Chase Utley are not on this list. If they are going to get Cliff Lee, Joe Mauer, and have three first basemen in Texeria, Pujols, and Fielder why not get these guys too?

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Fielder said

he’s open to a shift to second if it means playing for the Yankees. And Pujols? well he has a live enough arm to be a serviceable #5…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:23 PM MST up reply actions  

It's like his editor told him "I need a thing from you tommorow. It doesn't even have to be good"

So he ate a bran muffin and drank some coffee and squeezed this bad boy out after lunch.

by controlled_slide on Feb 10, 2010 10:11 PM MST up reply actions  

It's seriously one of the worst articles I've ever read.

"I'm convinced that every boy, in his heart, would rather steal second base than an automobile." ~Tom Clark

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 10, 2010 10:14 PM MST up reply actions  

"So he ate a bran muffin and drank some coffee and squeezed this bad boy out after lunch."

I see what you did there.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:21 PM MST up reply actions  

NOOOOOOO

Now you exposed its hidden beauty.

It was our secret!

Now it’s everywhere…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Feb 10, 2010 10:24 PM MST up reply actions  

Morales

is becoming the JR Smith of the Rockies for me. (Of course I’ve said the same things about CDI and Stew in the past). Focus and lock it down my man. Sky is the limit.

by Teekalong on Feb 10, 2010 4:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Am I the only one sad about Beimel?

I thought he was a great acquisition to a battered bullpen.

I, for one, am optimistic about the future. And I'm not one to be optimistic about anything.

by fantasyfencing on Feb 10, 2010 6:52 PM MST reply actions  

nope

you know how we feel about his choice of attire

Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2010 8:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Colorado Rockies, established 28 April 2005.

Community Guidelines
RockiesRoster.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Paul_by_jerichasmall_small
PRMLB February Thread

Recent FanPosts

Rockieshat1_small
Purple Row Cares: In memory of Thomas Harding's son
Small
On Addiction and Major League Baseball
Small
Musical Analysis of Baseball
Img_1229_small
Better Things: Starting Pitching in 2012
Rockies1_small
2012 Projected Opening Day Payroll
2009__1_small
Opening Day & Fireworks Tickets
Img_1229_small
Mount Olympus on Lake Otsego
Img_1229_small
PRMLB: The January Thread
Avatar_small
Off Season Picture Time

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Colorado Sports Blogs

Mile High Report (Denver Broncos)
Mile High Hockey (Colorado Avalanche)
Denver Stiffs (Denver Nuggets)
Burgundy Wave (Colorado Rapids)
The Ralphie Report (CU Buffaloes)
SB Nation Denver

Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AA/MLB
  2. Nolan Arenado, 3B - A (Adv)
  3. Wilin Rosario, C - AA/MLB
  4. Chad Bettis, RHP - A (Adv)
  5. Tyler Matzek, A (Adv), A
  6. Alex White, AA/MLB
  7. Kyle Parker, OF - A
  8. Tim Wheeler, OF - AA
  9. Josh Rutledge, SS - A (Adv)
  10. Charlie Blackmon, OF - MLB
  11. Rosell Herrera, SS/3B - Rookie
  12. Trevor Story, SS/3B - Rookie
  13. Edwar Cabrera, LHP - A (Adv)
  14. Tyler Anderson, LHP - unassigned
  15. Rafael Ortega, OF - A
  16. Peter Tago, RHP, A
  17. Christian Friedrich, LHP - AA
  18. Joe Gardner, RHP - AA
  19. Corey Dickerson, OF - Low-A
  20. Thomas Field, 2B - AA
  21. Will Swanner, C - Rookie
  22. Kent Matthes, OF - A (Adv)
  23. Albert Campos, RHP - A
  24. Jordan Pacheco, C/UT - AAA/MLB
  25. Cristhian Adames, SS - A
  26. Ben Paulsen, 1B - AA
  27. Josh Slaats, RHP - Low-A
  28. David Kandilas, CF - Rookie
  29. Jayson Aquino, LHP - DSL
  30. Hector Gomez, SS - AA/MLB
HM:  
Edgmer Escalona, RHP - AAA/MLB
Dillon Thomas, OF - Rookie
Sam Mende, IF - Rookie
Mike Zuanich, 1B - AA
Dan Houston, RHP - AA

updated 10/25/2011. 


Managers

Rox_girl_small Rox Girl

35l7yvb_small Andrew Martin

Staff

Jeff_aberle_small Jeff Aberle

Poison-the-well-the-tropic-rot_small Bryan Kilpatrick

Avatar2_small Andrew T. Fisher

Wittgenstein_small Greg Stanwood

Special Assistants to the GM

Rockies_lost_americana_small holly96