Tuesday Rockpile: Jim Tracy develops rotation order
by Russ Oates on Feb 16, 2010 7:24 AM MST
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PrintATF is unavailable to cover today's Rockpile, but enjoy these links:
Rockies' Tracy relishes another chance to manage talented team - The Denver Post
Troy Renck addresses some issues manager Jim Tracy will face during spring training. One of those issues is the order of starters in the rotation:
One of the reasons the bullpen survived a chaotic start a season ago is that the rotation consistently gobbled innings. All four returning starters won at least 10 games. Ubaldo Jimenez leads the group. Tracy plans to split up his right- handers and left-handers, meaning that either Jorge De La Rosa or Jeff Francis is tentatively slated to take the second spot, followed by Aaron Cook, the other lefty and Jason Hammel.
If Tracy decides to put Francis after Jimenez, that seems to put an unfair burden on Francis. Put it this way, we'll see articles and comments elsewhere that can't differentiate between someone being the second pitcher in the rotation and someone being our #2 pitcher.
Tracy calls Jimenez an aircraft carrier in the piece. I think I have an idea for a column. . . .
Renck: This Cubs loss could affect other teams - The Denver Post
The Cubs don't want to pay for a new Spring Training facility, so a $1 surcharge on all Cactus League tickets may be enacted to help fund the facility.
D-backs' Parker ready to begin throwing | MLB.com: News
"Jarrod Parker, who had Tommy John surgery in late October, received clearance to begin a throwing program on Monday."
Giants’ Jigsaw Pieces | FanGraphs Baseball
R.J. Anderson looks at the many options the Giants have this season, but finds that it's still easier to predict a fourth-place finish in the West than anything else: "For now, though, the Giants have options, and that’s progress."
Taveras added to Nats' outfield options | MLB.com: News
The Nationals added speed to their Spring Training roster by agreeing to terms Monday with outfielder Willy Taveras on a Minor League contract with an invitation to Spring Training.
Out Of Options 2010: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com
MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com
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A Plea for Larry Walker - Beyond the Box Score
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Inside the Colorado Rockies » Spring countdown discussion: NL West | Major League Baseball in Denver
Steve Foster brings us a discussion on the NL West.
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Comments
I think Francis is going to want that #2 spot
We’ll see if he’s up to it
I believe in a risen Francis
Maybe
They’re worried about the BP if JdLR does his Bad George impersonation, followed by Hammel regressing, followed by an unknown.
I would go with it because I think have Cook between two pitchers that have K abilities makes sense.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Feb 16, 2010 9:33 AM MST up reply actions
Francis' concerns are far more dire than either DLR's or Hammels, IMO.
by Greg Stanwood on Feb 16, 2010 9:37 AM MST up reply actions
Totally agree
Slotting him in as the 5th starter out of the gate automatically builds in an extra week of rest/prep time, as well as gets him a little more rest throughout the start of the season.
Hating Cubs fans since 1908
Yeah
thats why I said unknown.
Good news is just that. Pushing Francis right out of the gate is stupid IMO. Let him get the days off in March, because after ST, he may need them.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Feb 16, 2010 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
Maybe
But considering he has a pot roast for a shoulder, I’ll think I’d rather wait and see what else there is…
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Feb 16, 2010 11:23 AM MST up reply actions
I will be as cautious as the front office
currently their threat level is at Red-ding
Attention Whore.
I think/ hope Smith is the6th starter...I look forward to
a full season spring training to august of this kid (in AAA)….He may be Francis Lite…
But Jeff Francis will be just fine, he prepares so well and is a smart guy i just cant see him putting himself or team in danger if he doesnt feel right…
hopefully learned his lesson from 2008
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Feb 16, 2010 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
seth smith truly can do anything
;-)
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by Andrew Martin on Feb 16, 2010 2:52 PM MST up reply actions
Oh, THAT'S what Tommy John Surgery does.
Well, a bionic arm should certainly give him a little more oomph on his fastball.
nono, Francis and his Physics degree built it
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by Andrew Martin on Feb 16, 2010 2:53 PM MST up reply actions
How about Jimenez/Hammel/DLR/Cook/Francis?
Spread the bullpen risk out, and still have R-R-L-R-L. Also, Hammel is less of a strikeout pitcher than Ubaldo and DLR.
I still believe having Cook get more starts is better than Hammel.
by Greg Stanwood on Feb 16, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
Hammel wouldn't necessarily get more starts.
The only way that would happen is if the rotation remained the same all season, and ended between Hammel’s rotation spot and Cook’s. Or if Cook spent more time on the DL.
It’s different than the batting order. With the batting order, there are 162 opportunities for the last place hitter to get fewer at bats than the leadoff hitter, so over the course of the season there is a large difference in the number of plate appearances.
Of course it's not necessarily the case.
But the higher up you are in the rotation, the more likely it is you get more starts, simply because the rotation will reset at certain points of the season in the middle.
by Greg Stanwood on Feb 16, 2010 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
Like
After March, when 4 SP are all you really need for the first couple of weeks, and the AS break.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Feb 16, 2010 11:17 AM MST up reply actions
The way I see it
Ubaldo is clearly #1 and Hammel is clearly #5, so that just leaves the 2-4 spots to settle. With that logic, it only makes sense to go L-R-L, which slots Cook in as #3 and leaves Francis and DLR to battle for the #2 spot.
Also, it’s nice to be discussing the order of our starters at this point, instead of trying to figure out who the hell our starters going to be.
The Colorado Rockies aren't a team, they're an armada.
by free7694 on Feb 16, 2010 11:05 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We have 6 weeks of spring training
Isn’t part of the point to see how the players perform and making roster and lineup decisions based thereon?
It's just nice that one of the question marks going into ST
isn’t trying to figure out which mediocre pitchers will be at the back end of the rotation.
Umm
last to join the rotation?
sorry, thats all I’ve got…
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Feb 16, 2010 11:21 AM MST up reply actions
thats a darn good #5
I think thats the great thing here….we have a stable of studs
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Feb 16, 2010 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
OK
first off, I’m not the OP of the #5 comment.
secondly, you didn’t get the sarcasm…
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Feb 16, 2010 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
I'm in the same boat as you.
I’m definitely a lot more worried about Francis’ effectiveness than Hammel.
If he’s back to his 2007 form, Jeff is almost certainly the better pitcher. But until we know how effective he’s actually going to be, I’d feel more comfortable with Hammel getting a larger amount of starts.
Especially at the beginning of the season.
I know Tracy want to split up the left and right handers
but why can’t he just have the two lefies in the 3 and 5 spots?
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 9:07 AM MST reply actions
Basically exactly what WM said
It’s been a rough morning
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 9:08 AM MST up reply actions
Put new link
up there, the one about Larry Walker.
"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
Another new link.
Steve Foster’s rundown on the NL West.
"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
This is the final day of the off season, in a sense.
Tomorrow, the Rockies, as well as the Orioles, Cubs, Reds, Royals, Angels, Yankees, Phillies, Pirates, Cardinals, Giants, and Mariners begin operations at their Spring training homes, and most of the pitchers and catchers will arrive. The first workout for each of these teams will be the 18th.
by Greg Stanwood on Feb 16, 2010 9:54 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Bill Ladson
reports that the Nats have found their Wang.
"Shall it be peace, or a sword?" - Excised line from Lincoln's First Inaugural Address
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
Better not put them next to each other in the rotation
or it could read Marquis’s Magic Wang.
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 2:14 PM MST up reply actions
I found this awesome Harry Caray quote
“What does a mama bear on the pill have in common with the World Series? No Cubs.”
I hate the Red Wings.
by wtnelson on Feb 16, 2010 11:19 AM MST reply actions 3 recs
This is soooooooooooooo reced
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 2:15 PM MST up reply actions
the piece Renck had onthe Cubs Catus League issues
is very good food for thought, as far as a sports teams economic value to not only to the municipality but for all the other teams in the league
He also manages to put in some good shots at the Cubs FO while not seeming too snarky about the sircharge.
Some teams are just bully’s and rightfully in their defense use their clout to make things better for themselves its just annoying to everyone else…Atleast they dont win so we have the ultimate laugh.
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
Willy T
That linked article on Taveras signing w/ the Nats has a couple of odd statements.
It says Taveras is “best known for his years with the Astros” after he helped take them to the 2005 WS and that 2005 “was his best year.” Not so. 2007, when he helped take the Rox to the WS was his best year:
In 2005, Willy T. hit .291 with a .325 OBP & stole 34 bases.
In 2007, Willy T. hit .320 with a .367 OBP & stole 33 bases.
Why do people forget about the Rockies’ good years? There was certainly
no “Coors effect” with Willy T.
New decade, new result: time for a Rockies' division championship.
I personally tend to (unfairly) discount him a bit
because he was injured for the streak and didn’t return until the AZ series. And while he certainly had some nice plays in that series (the walk, the diving catch) overall he was less memorable than pretty much any of the other regulars on that team during Sept. and Roct.
In 2007 he hit .320?
THAT explains why I thought Taveras was a stud! I only started following the team in 2007, and Willy ALWAYS seemed to either be on base, or stealing them.
It was mostly because he bunted every other AB and they couldn't throw him out.
by Greg Stanwood on Feb 16, 2010 4:36 PM MST up reply actions
Which was fine in my book.
But then in 2008 I guess he decided getting more “traditional” hits was more important than, you know, being on base.
"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson
by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 16, 2010 4:50 PM MST up reply actions
It was fine in my book too.
Didn’t mean to imply otherwise.
by Greg Stanwood on Feb 16, 2010 4:55 PM MST up reply actions
No, I wasn't attaching any implication to what you said.
I just thought it was a strange decision on his part.
"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson
by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 16, 2010 5:09 PM MST up reply actions
the only thing I can think of other than small focus on the writers part
is that in 2005 he had a little more hype behind him as being a exciting prospect nationally and after the trade he got labeled as a failed prospect…
And the entire league conveniently forgets 2007
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
Yes, that's right
The Cubs don’t want to pay for their new spring training facility. So WE get to do it.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
isn't that nice...Call it the Cubs in Arizona tax
Maybe its just me, but especially in spring training…I so do not care who my team is playing…In fact I avoid Cubs games because I know the crowds will be more….
But if I lived in Arizona I would be behind keeping the Cubs inthe Catus and I understand why the league would accept this charge.
But it is awful heavy handed
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Feb 16, 2010 12:01 PM MST up reply actions
I try to avoid Cubs games period.
If they never win another World Series, it will be too soon.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:09 PM MST up reply actions
Agree but a part of me always roots for the Cubs in the regular season
because I can’t wait to see how they are going to screw it up in the postseason this time.
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 2:17 PM MST up reply actions
I think that you should rant at length about this. It would entertain me greatly.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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by Jeff Aberle on Feb 16, 2010 10:32 PM MST up reply actions
bored at home with sick little Tulo
anyone have any ideas what our first base plans post-helton?
hopefully this is at least 3-4 productive years later but should we be drafting a sure thing (tyler maztek) high schooler, or go with a college stud in a year or two, or wait for the time to come and find a Free agent available at the time?
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
The solution probably isn't in house
unless Nolan Arenado emerges as an option or Ian Stewart moves over to first.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Rockies targeted a polished hitter in the draft, their farm system’s depth mostly lies in pitching and toolsy up-the-middle players like Rosario, Gomez, Blackmon and Wheeler.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Feb 16, 2010 12:06 PM MST up reply actions
nice article on Walker, thank you
He has my vote….now to convince others who actually matter
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Feb 16, 2010 12:08 PM MST up reply actions
Don't rule out Iannetta moving to first,either
I think this is something we speculated on some last year. I still think the most likely scenario for what people are thinking of as post-Helton (2012 and beyond) is actually Todd Helton re-signing with the team until he’s done, just at a more reasonable rate that frees up money for other players. I don’t think it’s something that’s a big worry right now.
Kiel Roling and Ben Paulsen are probably the two primary 1B candidates on the farm, but the team’s been looking elsewhere to add to them (see their interest in the Cuban Jorge Julio Ruiz this winter).
How much longer would you speculate he'd keep going after 2012?
I guess I wouldn’t be surprised to see him retire after this deal is done.
"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson
by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 16, 2010 12:27 PM MST up reply actions
He'll "only" be 39
I think that Helton can continue to be valuable into his 40s, as long as his back problems don’t recur. I just hope that he doesn’t ask for too much, and that the Rockies are willing to let him finish his career in purple. I’d give him maybe 2 or 3 more years after 2012.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 12:35 PM MST up reply actions
At this point, I really doubt he retires after 2011.
His option will be bought out and he’ll be a FA. That’s just next year, and I haven’t seen any signs from him that suggest he’s getting burnt out from the sport or thinking about retirement anytime soon. I remember Larry Walker’s last couple of seasons with the Rockies and I think he clearly was already thinking about hanging up the cleats. I just don’t see that with Helton.
I think the Rockies probably will try to sign him to a two year contract and then go year to year after that. Right now, I’d speculate he plays through at least his age 40 season (2014). I imagine the last year or so he might be a Jason Giambi type of player for us and not the everyday 1B, and that could extend his career a year or two as he racks up some HOF milestones. I guess I’m thinking it’s likely he’s the Rockies 1B through 2013.
At his current pace
he needs what, 5 more years to get 3000 hits? I wouldn’t be surprised if his decision is based, at least in part, on how he stands in that quest after 2011. I guess I have no idea how important that kind of stuff is to him, but man it would be awesome for me.
five or six seasons, he's had 435 over the last three seasons
Doubling that would put him just over 3000.
He’s got an outside chance at 700 doubles as well, and while it’s not as sexy as certain HR clubs, only four other players in MLB history have reached that milestone. I think basically anything past 625 (passing Hank Aaron for 10th all time) gets him into the HOF, but 700’s a somewhat doable goal for him.
A couple other numbers that seem to make a certain HOF player:
4800 career total bases. Obviously voters don’t really look at this, but it seems players that can combine to get over that hump almost always get in unless they’re banned from baseball. You could almost actually put this at 4700, but Sammy Sosa will almost certainly not get into the HOF. Helton’s currently at 3686, and has averaged 219 over the last three years, another five seasons should put him in that safe zone among the top 30 all time.
1500/1500 Runs and RBI. Currently, only 29 players have ever hit both totals, and they’re all pretty much either in the Hall or headed to it. Helton’s been pretty remarkable in keeping both numbers pretty equal throughout his career, he’s at 1222 and 1202 currently. If he can crack the 1600/1600 club, that’s even better still, he’d need to average 80 of each over five seasons.
1500/1500/1500 Only nine MLB players have ever added 1500 walks to the above:
Ruth
Bonds
Gehrig
Musial
Ott
Yasztremski
Williams
Schmidt
Mantle
Helton’s at 1222/1202/1130 right now.
Those are all great stats
But there will almost certainly be a certain air of “Oh, I’m not even going to look at the stats; he played at Coors for his whole career” following him among many circles of baseball people. I think he’ll get in, but how Walker’s case proceeds starting next year will be very instructive in predicting how quickly – if at all – Helton gets in.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 2:49 PM MST up reply actions
I think you're all being extremely optimistic
And I for one hope that Todd knows when to hang up his cleats, whether that’s at 38 or 43 or whatever. I hope he won’t be the kind of player who ekes out a few final years to the detriment of his club(s) just to add to his counting stats for HoF consideration.
I get the impression he’s not that kind of guy. But I guess we’ll see. If the best thing he can do for the Rockies is to retire, I think he’d do that.
With advances in workout technology
And training and diet, it’s not out of the realm of possibility for a player to be productive into his 40s, especially at a position like first base, where there’s not a lot of range needed. I don’t know about Helton specifically, but I wouldn’t put it past him to be one of the types to care enough about his health to condition himself to play beyond 40.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 3:09 PM MST up reply actions
The elite players tend to be valuable far longer than your average or even very good players.
And at this point in his career, given the season he just had at 35, I think it’s pretty safe to put Helton in that elite category. Look at Carl Yasztremski’s career, for instance, where he was fairly productive until 43 years old. Even Giambi’s a decent example. Am I being optimistic? Maybe, but definitely not “extremely” so.
I think my concern stems from the fact
That I honestly don’t think it’s likely for the Colorado Rockies to be best allocating resources and roster spots by employing a 41-year-old who hits for acceptable average, doesn’t slug and can barely move.
His on-base skills can hardly be described as "acceptable"
He was 3rd in the NL in OBP just last year, and he’s 12th on the all-time career list.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 3:22 PM MST up reply actions
In addition
Although it’s usual to have high-slugging first basemen, with the slugging that the Rockies have at other positions (Tulo, Stewart, Smith, Gonzalez, Iannetta), it wouldn’t hurt the Rockies to have a first baseman with a lower slugging percentage.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 3:26 PM MST up reply actions
You noticed I'm talking about 5 years time!
I KNOW he’s an obp stud now. I just don’t think he will be then. It’s not a controversial view.
I know
But my point is that his skills can still, at 35, be described as “elite”. Will he have degraded to “acceptable” 5 years from now? It’s possible, and I think that the crux of our disagreement is that I don’t think so and you do. I think he’ll still be very good to great at getting on base (consider that his BB/K rate was 3rd in the NL last year. His batting average may drop off, but he’s still really good at drawing a walk, and that skill will probably drop off more slowly) 5 years from now.
Nevertheless, it’s all academic right now, and I think the best thing is to enjoy Mr. Helton for as long as we can.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 6:03 PM MST up reply actions
So you're not a fan of the Giambi signing, I take it...
At 41, if he’s still playing, I imagine Helton would be either platooning or a straight bench bat like Giambi. I really think his hitting skills will still be a lot more valuable at that point than you seem to be thinking. Right around there will definitely be the end, though. I do think that he should be able to hit a lot of these milestones before that point.
I'm not a big fan of the Giambi signing, no
And I’d love these projections to be right. I also think that Helton has a massive amount of goodwill in this franchise, and I’d hate to think there’s a substantial opportunity cost associated with this goodwill.
An opportunity cost would imply a better opportunity's available
to the franchise, or would be, then. It’s not at all clear that’s the case.
I’m curious, what do you project for Helton in 2010? I guess another question would be how you’d rank the NL West 1B’s for this year. I guess what I’m saying is that your scenario foresees a massive reduction in his value over the next five seasons, which would indicate some sort of crash year somewhere along the way. Where would you put that? It’s not necessarily wrong, crashes like that do happen for players. A good example of your suggestion would be Mark Grace, who was still good as a 37 year old in 2001, less than mediocre as a 38 year old in 2002 and a poor quality bench player in 2003 as a 39 year old, but even if Helton had Grace’s 36-39 year old seasons he’d pass 2500 hits, 600 doubles and be close to 1500 RBI, in other words, be a borderline HOF candidate.
My scenario is saying that the decline from here on out will likely be more gradual and when he does decide to retire, his bat will probably still be somewhat valuable. I guess what I’m saying is that I think Helton’s now pretty clearly a tier above your Grace level of very good player. Actually, this gives me something to write for tomorrow’s Rockpile…
I think you've asserted one thing but demonstrated another
I’m not suggesting Todd will crash next season, nor the season after, but I do expect a certain amount of decline. Extrapolate this into 2012, 2013, 2014 and we might find ourselves lumbered with a player who is not only no longer a big obp threat, but an actual liability. So he’d only have to decline a smallish amount each year to be worth a lot less by the time he’s in his 40s.
How many players in their 40s are really worth their roster spot, both versus younger team mates and realistic free agents?
And I hope it goes without saying that I’d LOVE Todd to make the Hall.
Don't worry, I know you're rooting for Todd...
I know where you’re coming from in rooting for X, but logically expecting something else. I also don’t want to sound like I’m discounting your opinion in this as anything close to invalid, because an insufficient Helton in 2014 is certainly well within the range of possible and realistic outcomes.
That said, I do have a couple of points. First, a straight line decline like that, particularly in the OBP skill, I think would be fairly atypical. It’s usually down a half step one year, up a quarter or a third the next, down a half step, up, etc.., so that the cumulative drop after a few seasons is discernible, but not as dramatic as you seem to be suggesting. Giambi’s a decent example where all his projected OBP’s for 2010 are higher than his cumulative OBP for 2009, even though all the projections still see him as in an overall decline.
I think I’ll probably save some of this discussion for tomorrow. I’ll try and look into some of your other points for then as well and see if I can come up with a counterargument.
Brilliant - I'll look forward to reading them
There is a fair amount of devil’s advocacy going on in my posts here, because I can see it’s an emotive area for Rox fans and I think an opposing view, even a gentle one like mine, is useful for balance.
Just to finish my point, a couple of other issues:
1. Todd will be more prone to injury the older he gets, and at some point an injury may terminate a career. This has to be a consideration
2. We’re already saying things like “if Todd could run he’d make a perfect no. 2”. I’m wary of more “ifs”, and more damaging “ifs”.
3. When his Rox contract expires, perhaps he should be looking at DH gigs elsewhere? Thoughts?
the DH thing
it makes sense based on the typical “old player can’t play the field”, but if he can still scoop like he can, there’s no reason for him to DH. His fielding is already deteriorating, just in terms of making ridiculous plays off of the bat, but his back-end of the putout is still strong.
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by Andrew Martin on Feb 17, 2010 10:02 AM MST up reply actions
That's why I put these in particular up there.
Players that can get into the top 30 of all time when it comes to easily recognizable stats will usually get around the handicaps. Barry Bonds will likely get into the HOF a lot easier than Mark McGwire or Sosa despite a similar steroid shroud just because his numbers are so overwhelmingly awesome.
There will definitely still be some that hold Coors against Helton, but at those levels, he’d eliminate enough of the detractors to be a near lock for entry.
That's a good point
I think that Sabermetrically inclined voters would look deeply enough at Helton’s stats to put him in (I think he should go in certainly), and more traditional voters would be swayed by the old-school “sexy” stats.
by controlled_slide on Feb 16, 2010 3:13 PM MST up reply actions
One of the interesting things about Coors is that it's clearly not the hitter's paradise it used to be
I think Rockies fans realize this a whole lot more than fans of other teams do. If the Rockies are competitive over the next few years (which it think they will be) and more people get to see Coors play the way it does now, perceptions of Coors will change by the time Helton’s name appears on the ballot.
Now voters would just have to balance off that Helton played half of his career (about 25% of his career games) at old Coors.
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 3:29 PM MST up reply actions
The big difference
is really in the reduced HR rate. It still plays pretty darn well for hitters, with the big alleys.
Hating Cubs fans since 1908
Oh it's still a hitters park
but it’s nowhere near where it was ten years ago.
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 3:42 PM MST up reply actions
I think Jim Rice and Yaz are going to help him a lot with this.
All three (assuming Helton finishes with the Rockies) will have played their entire careers in home parks that favored hitters Yastrzemski’s road splits were .264/.357/.422. Rice’s were .277/.330/.459. Helton’s are currently .294/.395/.489. Yaz played in a bit more of a pitcher’s era,The gaudy counting numbers I posted above will push him over the top. I really think Helton’s on a solid HOF trajectory as long as he doesn’t collapse completely in the next season or two. It might not be a first year sort of deal for him, but 3/4 of the voters will come around I would say within five years of him being put on the ballot.
Well, a ring would help his case for the HOF as well
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Feb 16, 2010 4:33 PM MST up reply actions
yes. This is very true.
But I’m just saying those two cursed era Red Sox never got their rings and got in.
I like the way you put this
I really doubt Helton is going to drop off so dramatically, so those numbers are definitely within reach. If Walker doesn’t make it into the hall (good article linked up there btw), then I fully expect Helton to be the first Rockie to make it.
Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.
by ShadowPenguin on Feb 16, 2010 5:00 PM MST up reply actions
1B is no biggie to me
as it is always the easiest position to find a decent guy willing to take a one year $7 million type contract in free agency.
Yeah I've managed to get sick too
not so fun
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:10 PM MST up reply actions
And I'm supposed to give a talk tomorrow night too
Hopefully the audience won’t be completely disgusted. Or I’ll feel better.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:11 PM MST up reply actions
It's about my book, the way it took over my life
and both the creative and practical sides of writing. I’m looking forward to it.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah well that's the problem
I forgot to get cold medicine when I was in town today, and since it’s snowing buckets, I’m NOT going back out.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:20 PM MST up reply actions
Sound like a time for our friend Jack Daniels
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
Go with Four Roses. Or Buffalo Trace
Or even Ancient Ancient Age if you want to go relatively cheap. I’ve become such a bourbon snob since I’ve moved near Kentucky. Because of only having JD and Jim Beam before, I actually could never really stand the stuff, but I have since seen the light.
No booze around here either
So I’ll just hack and snort disgustingly and hope I feel better tomorrow.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:57 PM MST up reply actions
What's funny
is that the Jim Beam distillery actually some really spectacular bourbons.
Hating Cubs fans since 1908
Knob Creek's decent,
I haven’t tried any of their other small batch varieties, although I’ve seen them, do you have a particular one you like?
Basil Hayden's
Baker’s is also pretty good, very smooth for a 100+ proof bourbon.
Hating Cubs fans since 1908
So...
begging the question much? What is the good stuff?
I’m definitely a scotch man myself, but I do like bourbon (and other whiskey/ryes) from time to time. Never really invested in the good stuff though (my bar has the basics, Maker’s, Knob, Bookers, Wild Turkey and of course Jim and Jack).
And I'm assuming
you like Four Roses and Buffalo Trace, though not sure if you were offering those as lower cost options or if that is the top of the list.
Four Roses is definitely my favorite,
But it’s not cheap. I think it’s worth the investment and it sort of opened my eyes to what I had been missing in bourbons. I do like Buffalo Trace’s products, which is also why I mentioned Ancient Ancient Age. It’s a blend of their 10 year old whiskeys that don’t quite pass the quality control test for their higher end brands (which have distinct flavors) but it’s still very good, about as good as Maker’s IMO, at a price that’s usually at the low end for bourbons. Ancient Age is the 7 or 8 year version of that.
I like Old Weller as a moderately priced wheated bourbon, but I’ve noticed it’s a bit inconsistent. I’m really not familiar with bourbons or whiskeys outside Kentucky, but in my next move I think I should be better prepared to find some.
Interesting
Four Roses seems to have a wide variety in quality, from $20 bottles (which is why I thought it might be a low cost, must have seen it on the rack somewhere) to $80 (which is nothing exciting for scotch but awfully expensive for bourbon). Which is the version you prefer?
As an aside, how do you take yours? In general I drink everything neat, but I’ve heard some say that (like blended scotch) bourbon is better with some water or a few ice cubes.
And before I’m criticized for going too far off baseball, I once offered to buy Albert Belle a beer but he refused, saying he only drinks mixed drinks. i think he had a vodka cranberry.
That's a funny story about Belle.
It sort of reminds me of certain people I know who seem to be trying to emulate Dean Martin or Frank Sinatra or somebody and then end up just ordering rum and cokes or vodka and red bull and other treacly concoctions with surprisingly obscene names given their sugar content.
For 4 Roses, I’m actually into their single barrel varieties, which start around $50. I think the blends are those around $20, and I realize that I actually have never tried them. So, I really don’t know if they’re any good.
I can’t really handle my bourbon neat, and I may be running contrary to conventional wisdom in that I think with the higher proofs it’s really difficult to get the full flavor of the whiskey without something to cut into the alcohol. At home, or if I trust a bartender, I’ll order or make an Old-Fashioned, or Manhattan. If I don’t trust a bartender, or if I’m just taste testing it, I’ll order it on the rocks or with a glass of water on the side.
My dad loves Old Fashioned(s)
I even tried to make them a few times but definitely better left for the experienced barman mixologist. I’ll try the single barrell Roses.
The better part of the Belle story is that, later that evening, he snatched AZ basketball star Miles Simon’s girlfriend, and Miles was later allegedly arrested for trying to break into Albert’s house to get her back.
Also my friend kept calling him “Joey” (which Belle hated) but from a safe, safe distance.
(As with these kind of stories, many versions circulate so hard to know what happened. But I did love living in Tucson when the players hit the college bars. Fun times for sure).
It could be my Colorado bias
but my favorite to drink the last couple years has been Stranahan’s – not that you asked me….
Hating Cubs fans since 1908
Interested in all takes
and I’ve never had Stranahans.
just give me some Bombay and tonic, and I will be a happy camper
I mean, say what you like about the tenets of Rockies baseball, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
good luck to you
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Feb 16, 2010 2:05 PM MST up reply actions
Wouldn't be surprised
With all the depth at pitching that a trade happens eventually where the Rockies end up getting their replacement for Helton. Maybe next year Colorado will see that. They will need to start giving Helton time off and I don’t see Giambi being that guy past this year.
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
Another nugget from today's DP interview with Tracy
is that he is leaning towards a five man bench. I’m assuming those five are Olivo, Mora, Giambi, Smith, and Spilly. Although there are always surprises, I think it is going to be tough for new talent (e.g., EY2) to win a spot on the 25 man roster as a position player.
I believe in a risen Francis
Yep, this is pretty much the way we've been seeing it shake out since the Giambi and Mora signings.
As long as he’s healthy, I do see EY2 getting plenty of MLB time with any Rockies position player injury, and sort of like CarGo last year, he might get a shot to stick if he plays well enough when he’s called up. I think the only person that could stand in his way would be Chris Nelson.
We're still looking at Gagne
This is just a gut feeling, but I believe if we sign him, he may be one of the top RP steals of this offseason. Everything is aligned for him to do good in Colorado: Tracy reunion, good physical shape, Dan O’Dowd magic, Bob Apodaca’s recent successes with De la Rosa, Street, Hammel. Even if he does fail, it would just be a minor league deal so it wouldn’t hurt us…:/
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
Bullpen already filled out
No real place for him
Roster concerns
Performance concerns
Total failure once off the ’roids
Ehh….
Minor league deal, maybe. MAYBE.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2010 12:56 PM MST up reply actions
As long as it's a cheap minor league deal I'm on board.
You never know what you’ll get out of a bullpen and a pitcher that looks like a lock now may struggle. The more options we have in-house to patch quickly the better. I wouldn’t put money on Gagne having a resurgence though, but as cheap insurance, why not.
I suppose there isn't much harm in having him around as meat
Fortunately, our bullpen looks solid enough that there’s a very slender likelihood he’ll ever be let near any high-leverage innings. (What a nice feeling. Tom Martin anyone?)
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
Gah bad memories.
So glad we’re past those days.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Feb 16, 2010 1:10 PM MST up reply actions
Even though I like the bullpen now
there’s enough fluctuation year-to-year with most relievers that I’m not holding my breath. We already have quite a few options to fill in where needed but the bullpen is one place I don’t mind having excess depth. I think you’re right about high-leverage innings though, it would be shocking if he found his way into hold or save opportunities, no matter what happens.
I never really was saying that we should go ahead and make him a set up man
I’m just thinking that having him as Triple A fodder on a minor league deal and see what he can do there wouldn’t be such a bad idea, it would take a lot of bad things for him to make the roster out of Spring Training, but seeing him come up and pitch middle relief for a few days in June if someone got injured really wouldn’t hurt, especially if he’s such good shape as he’s saying. I just think he’s a possible steal for the offseason.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Feb 16, 2010 1:09 PM MST up reply actions
I haven't seen this pop up anywhere yet.
An investigation into a swastika cap and the Boston Braves.
Very interesting article!
Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.
by ShadowPenguin on Feb 16, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions
now that
was very interesting…great research on that!
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
You know I sometimes bore you all with cricket talk
Well, here’s something you might find less boring, if you might enjoy the misfortune of a mouthy British noob :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21373331@N00/4362791115/sizes/o/
cricket owns
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics
by Andrew Martin on Feb 16, 2010 10:57 PM MST up reply actions
that's a wicked googly
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics
by Andrew Martin on Feb 17, 2010 10:03 AM MST up reply actions
Poor O's
This is the type of injury you would expect to happen to the Cubs (or Mets)
"Show me a good loser in professional sports, and I'll show you an idiot." - Leo Durocher
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 16, 2010 4:26 PM MST reply actions
OMG why did that not happen to the Mets
That would have been hysterical.
I can haz NL West title in 2010? And for that matter, the damn 2010 season to START?
Just went over to TrueBlueLA to see their reaction to signing Gagne
Overall, not too happy. Though a few realize that he has less than a prayer’s chance of making the roster.
Don't hate the player, hate the game, except all Yankees players.
sounds a lot like here when we signed LoDuca
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics
by Andrew Martin on Feb 19, 2010 9:02 AM MST up reply actions
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