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Around SBN: Jeremy Lin Continues Rampage, New York Wins On Road

Wednesday Rockpile: Ubaldo Jimenez moving on up, three Rockies make Baseball America's top 100

Ubaldo Jimenez gets more love from the Denver Post as Troy Renck talks to him about his new house and hopes for the season.

Brad Hawpe and Seth Smith have also arrived and Renck lists Carlos Gonzalez, Jason Giambi, Jay Payton and Melvin Mora as the only players yet to show, but said in a blog post yesterday that CarGo was supposed to arrive last night. The article also confirms my suspicion that Jim Tracy has Hawpe pencilled into the fifth slot in the batting order. Assuming that he still likes CarGo at leadoff, we only have to discern where he pictures Stewart, Iannetta (or Olivo) and Barmes, at this point, and that's the order I'd guess.

After the jump, I'm going to give my take on the Baseball America top 100 prospects (which were announced yesterday) for each team in the division, listed in the order of number of prospects to make the cut:

 


Star-divide

San Francisco (4) - Buster Posey (7), Madison Bumgarner (14), Zack Wheeler (49), Thomas Neal (96).

Despite my snark toward him last season, Buster Posey will likely regularly be a top five NL catcher offensively in his prime and could well be right with Brian McCann as top in the league, so take that ranking seriously. The rest of the Giants on the list are somewhat iffy, and it will be really interesting to watch the developments in coming seasons of their two star LHP prospects alongside our two star LHP prospects.

Ever since Pablo Sandoval, I'm a little unnerved by Giants prospects that hit well at San Jose and wait to see what happens at Connecticut. If they (and I'm specifically referring to Neal in this case) crash at Dodd Stadium, as most will, I breathe a sigh of relief that they'll wind up like your typical Giants replacement level hitter.

Jim Callis' most recent Ask BA specified the Giants as the only NL team " that stood out as having a quality Top 10 and nice depth in the 11-30 range on our prospect lists." My bias makes me rankle at that, but at the same time, I've been acknowledging SF as the best system in the division for the last couple of seasons. I think the Rockies are a lot closer to them now, than we were last year, however.

San Diego (4) - Donovan Tate (53), Simon Castro (57), Jaff Decker (82), James Darnell (90).

The Padres have a quietly solid system, the problem I have with it is that the positional talent seems concentrated at third base or in the outfield.

Colorado (3) - Tyler Matzek (23), Christian Friedrich (33), Jhoulys Chacin (71)

On one hand, I have a real issue with Matzek being ranked so high, as he has yet to pitch in the minors, but at the same time I acknowledge his tremendous potential warrants him ranking ahead of Friedrich, for instance. I think after you get out of the top 10 (actually this list goes to 11, as I'd include Ackley in that group) the distinction between top prospects becomes pretty blurry. Chacin's 24 walks allowed in 25.1 innings between AAA and the Rockies have seemingly pushed expectations back for the right-hander. He's not going to be successful as a pitch to contact pitcher if he's lacking command and control. It will be interesting to see what he does with a full season at altitude.

Los Angeles (2) - Dee Gordon (46), Chris Withrow (48)

I've been thinking that Gordon's been getting overrated this winter by the usual standards of these lists as a player whose lofty ranks have been based on pretty unrealistic projections. His MLE (a calculation of what he'd hit were he in the majors) from last season equates to a .215/.250/.271 line.  He gets compared to Jimmy Rollins, who hit about as well as an 18 year old in single A as Gordon, who was 21 years old at that level last season.

Frequently, you'll see the words "All-Star potential" attached to him, such as from Baseball Prospectus' Kevin Goldstein, and I suppose that given he's capable of being the starting shortstop for the NL's most well attended team, this could easily work in theory, but keep in mind he will be competing against Tulo and Hanley Ramirez and Jose Reyes and even Yunel Escobar so I'm guessing he'd be an undeserving All-Star at best. And by the time those players have peaked and started to decline, I really have a hard time seeing Gordon being better than whatever shortstops will be coming up after him, especially since his one truly standout tool is his speed, and that won't last into his own declining years. He might even have to move off short into center field, where he becomes Willy Taveras with a little more pop (if his lightly developed power ever does develop). Given that he's a questionable middle infield defender with 80 speed on the scouting scale, Eric Young Jr. is another comparison, and I love EY2, but he was never a top 50 MLB prospect.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I see a realistic peak of a midrange, average  NL shortstop, but a likely scenario of becoming somewhat less than that. Of course, given that the Dodgers have been dealing off their best prospects for midseason help the last couple of years (see Carlos Santana and Josh Bell's ranks) we might not have to worry much about Gordon even if I'm wrong about him.

Dodger pitching prospects are more worrisome to me, as Withrow's just the best of many arms with a similar profile of having elite fastballs, but lacking suitable MLB-level complements to reach their full potential. It would only take one of these pitchers to harness a secondary pitch or two to give the Dodgers a truly potent young rotation with Clayton Kershaw and Chad Billingsley already in tow.

Arizona (1) - Jarrod Parker (36)

Parker's very solid and I believe ranked too low on this list. He has as much upside still as any of these pitchers with the possible exception of Strasburg and he's likely to be pitching in the majors sooner than many of the players ranked ahead of him as well (including Matzek). I think this is an example of a weakness with BA's list when it comes to dealing with injuries. The rest of the D-backs system in in an early incubation stage, so it might take a couple of seasons for us to know just how good it really is right now.

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Guys

can we not discuss ties…
Yesterday was a bit much.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Feb 24, 2010 10:10 AM MST reply actions  

No ties, they'll play 22 innings if need be...

Oh, ties…I thought you meant….

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 24, 2010 10:14 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

niiiiiice!

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Feb 24, 2010 10:15 AM MST up reply actions  

That game was so funny

I was driving to Rock Springs and listened to it through the first 8 innings, had to go eat with friends and family got down a couple hours later went to drive to my hotel room, and the game was still going.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 10:18 AM MST up reply actions  

I want to say it was the 20th inning when I got back in my car

I was seriously shocked the game was still on. I watched the shortened replay of it the next day.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions  

my friend was visiting from home

and we were watching the game, talking, and drinking some beers. Well, we had an ok buzz going after 9 innings, as we had intended, but we kept going at about the same rate because “well, it can’t last too much longer, can it.” Flash forward to 12:00 and us both passed out in our chairs in front of the TV.

by denver_sc on Feb 25, 2010 12:05 PM MST up reply actions  

I really don't care for cell phone waist holsters

Thoughts?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions  

No wonder you changed your name. Must be the witness protection program…

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Feb 24, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions  

um, are you the Waco Kid?

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 24, 2010 11:28 AM MST up reply actions  

ah, George likes spicy chicken.

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 24, 2010 11:40 AM MST up reply actions  

Cell phone holders = Batman fanboys

Donate to charity by shopping for Purple Row Merchandise at:
Purple Row Cares

by Charlie77 on Feb 24, 2010 1:35 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Aww, I missed the fun

I’m a tie guy. My wife thinks I have a problem. And I probably do.

by Yokel on Feb 24, 2010 12:16 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm not worried about Chacin

He spend basically the entire 2nh half bouncing between levels and moving from the pen to the rotation and back again. It’s not too surprising to see some command issues in a small sample size. Give him a defined role as a starter in the Springs, and he will do better.

by mkorpal on Feb 24, 2010 10:11 AM MST reply actions  

I agree, I just wanted to explain why he'd drop on the BA list from last season (when he ranked #46)

And then I spent to long railing on Dee Gordon to add much more of my opinion on anything else.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 10:14 AM MST up reply actions  

I enjoy you railing against the Dodgers

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 10:15 AM MST up reply actions  

thanks.

Along with the Rockies LHP vs Giants LHP cage match in 2010 and beyond, I actually think there’s another interesting one with Gordon and Hector Gomez, as they were born only a month apart and both are still somewhat raw and toolsy. Gomez has the better glove and quite a bit more power potential, Gordon has the better speed and so far, better contact ability. I think I’d rather have our guy than their guy, but I don’t know how much of that is my Rockies bias. At any rate, I don’t think there is that large a difference between where I’d rank them as prospects given the substantial questions both have. So watching who wins that battle will be interesting to me.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing....

but I remember reading somewhere that Gomez has elite speed as well—-I think it was at project prospect that they timed him as fastest in the AFL—perhaps I remember that wrong.

Of course Gomez will have to stay healthy and his contact ability is in need of a lot of work, so I’d rate it a push at this point.

by DenverBears on Feb 25, 2010 8:44 AM MST up reply actions  

Gomez has good speed, Gordon's a real Corey Wimberly/EY2 type of burner

I’d rate them as a push too, which is why I think BA has either overrated Gordon or is underrating Gomez. My guess given the question marks is more the former than the latter, but it’s probably a bit of both.

by Rox Girl on Feb 25, 2010 9:47 AM MST up reply actions  

here's where I found it....

http://projectprospect.com/article/2009/12/18/prospect-speed-meet-prospect-d

Basically, he says Gomez may be an 80 speed! Fastest guy he has seen this season.

Unless there is another Hector Gomez I don’t know about.

by DenverBears on Feb 26, 2010 4:58 AM MST up reply actions  

also this...

http://projectprospect.com/article/2009/12/08/afl-speed-data

They measured times to first base in the AFL and he was the fastest.

by DenverBears on Feb 26, 2010 5:07 AM MST up reply actions  

I don’t see how pitching in CS is going to help him, if he has to pitch with slippery rocks…
The Rockies ought to put in a humidor there to help the up and coming pitchers develop.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Feb 24, 2010 10:15 AM MST up reply actions  

I know we discuss this a lot

but is there any reason they haven’t done it? It seems inane to me, but I guess I’ve never heard the rationale for why it hasn’t been done. And the answer better not be saving money.

by Teekalong on Feb 24, 2010 10:21 AM MST up reply actions  

I believe expenses, and that the Sky Sox aren't 100% owned by the Rockies

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions  

Yes, but,

it seems like the benefit to the Rockies would far outweigh the cost of putting one in there…

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions  

I think the latter part might be the bigger issue

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

Drop in the bucket

in terms of total player development costs to the big club…

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 10:38 AM MST up reply actions  

I mean, I don't think the financial issues are the biggest ones

I could be wrong here, but the Sky Sox are owned by Elmore Sports Group, not the Monforts/Rockies. They can’t impose their will on the Sox. I thought I read the owners were averse to installing a humidor, but my memory is very fuzzy on it

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 10:46 AM MST up reply actions  

Considering minor league baseball has a lot gimmicks and promotions etc

They probably like a high-scoring ball-park. Also might be a factor in why some of our top prospects either skip AAA or are there for short periods of time without regard for the statistics.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

This is probably

the key, just seems to me that the Rox/Monforts could put some serious pressure on them to make it happen if they really wanted it to.

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 11:59 AM MST up reply actions  

I don't worry about anyone

If the worries come from where they’re placed on a top prospect list. How someone places in a list doesn’t raise or lower their actual value or WAR. As far as his “control” issues I agree whole-heartedly as SSS is most likely the cause

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 10:16 AM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, it is kind of arbitrary. A guy with minimal professional experience can rate higher than a guy who got to the majors and—GASP!—didn’t dominate right away.

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 24, 2010 10:18 AM MST up reply actions  

Plus you factor in how much hype is associated with your placement on this list

Yankee and Met prospects, for example, always rank high it seems, only to bust consistently on the big-stage.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 10:20 AM MST up reply actions  

Well, to be honest

One has the stuff of a 3rd or 4th starter, while the other has the stuff of an ace.

by mkorpal on Feb 24, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions  

This is where prospect lists are faulty IMO

They are based solely on one’s ceiling, they don’t seem to factor in their chances for reaching that ceiling.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 10:31 AM MST up reply actions  

Some lists are like that

I think the most include both ceiling and floor.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 10:33 AM MST up reply actions  

I think we have had this argument before.

And I agree with you, more or less. But it isn’t always like that. If it was, EY would not be on anyone’s list.

by mkorpal on Feb 24, 2010 10:33 AM MST up reply actions  

I know

But it just seems like a list like this does not take into account any amount of a learning curve.

"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson

by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 24, 2010 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

Another tidbit

Jose Julio Ruiz is expected to sign between today and tomorrow. Rockies were listed as one of the final 6 teams interested in the Cuban 1B.

by mkorpal on Feb 24, 2010 10:13 AM MST reply actions  

Sounds like he wants playing time quick (and should impact quick apparently)

so he may not come our way, given Todd should have at least a couple years left. It’s an interesting thought though.

by phishbate on Feb 24, 2010 10:39 AM MST up reply actions  

Thongs!

I believe in a risen Francis

by Rawktober on Feb 24, 2010 11:19 AM MST up reply actions  

Maybe we Purple Row could talk Giambi into letting us use his plane

To fly staff members to away games for coverage, and fans that live far away to home games

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 11:21 AM MST up reply actions  

In that post by Renck

he mentions this:

When the team was investigating signing Mora, they had data showing that he was the best range of any third baseman last season.

Wonder if they used Fangraphs & looked at Range Factor. Higher than Stewart’s as a comparison.

by phishbate on Feb 24, 2010 10:31 AM MST reply actions  

Gee

The Dbacks certainly did a good job of imploding their once stalwart farm system, didn’t they?

"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
"I mean come on, you can’t be from Nebraska and go to school at CU, I think they take away your overalls or one of your last remaining teeth for that."

Hollidayrain Music
3OH!3 Remix Project!

by Hollidayrain on Feb 24, 2010 10:36 AM MST reply actions  

for Dan HAren

you think he was worth it?

raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Feb 24, 2010 10:49 AM MST up reply actions  

And in a way, Edwin Jackson

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

They definitely are putting all their eggs in to the next 2-3 years.

(well, that’s a failed cliche, but still…) It’s going to be sad for D-Backs fans after that.

Saved by the buoyancy of citrus.

by Justus on Feb 24, 2010 11:03 AM MST up reply actions  

And I'd be sad too if I was a D'backs fan

Because it’s not like they mortgaged the future for a solid present, They could still very well end up 4th in the NL West this year.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 11:05 AM MST up reply actions  

And Stephen Drew!!!1111

…yeah.

Saved by the buoyancy of citrus.

by Justus on Feb 24, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions  

Heck, I remember when Tulo and Crosby were compared

and some though Crosby was Tulo’s ceiling

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 11:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Honestly

Tulo’s worst season wasn’t much worse than Crosby’s best.

"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
"I mean come on, you can’t be from Nebraska and go to school at CU, I think they take away your overalls or one of your last remaining teeth for that."

Hollidayrain Music
3OH!3 Remix Project!

by Hollidayrain on Feb 24, 2010 11:40 AM MST up reply actions  

I thought he was a rookie of the year in 03 or something

Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. ~Greg, age 8
"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I would toss one that ain’t never been seen by this generation."

by arpagamos on Feb 24, 2010 1:15 PM MST up reply actions  

Watched him play in oakland

terrible player at least while I was in grad school, we knew it was an out every time he came to the plate.

Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too. ~Greg, age 8
"I never threw an illegal pitch. The trouble is, once in a while I would toss one that ain’t never been seen by this generation."

by arpagamos on Feb 24, 2010 1:17 PM MST up reply actions  

It's hard to believe that less than a year ago people thought Tulo's career was going to

go just like Crosby’s because of the similarities up to that point. (When Tulo was hitting about .210 in late May last year)

"I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats." - Bill Veeck.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 24, 2010 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

I could see them finishing third.

But yeah, it’s not like they are going to be a contending team for the next couple of years…

Saved by the buoyancy of citrus.

by Justus on Feb 24, 2010 11:09 AM MST up reply actions  

I like the Haren/Webb/Jackson combo...

but offensively, they’re a question mark. 3rd place is not a bad bet.

by Since1993 on Feb 24, 2010 11:33 AM MST up reply actions  

due to some of their young guns not taking the step forward that we have seen with Tulo

specifically Young and Drew.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 11:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Definitely shortsighted.

They never really had a backup plan/a whole lot of depth, that could handle things if their young prospects didn’t live up to expectations.

Saved by the buoyancy of citrus.

by Justus on Feb 24, 2010 11:16 AM MST up reply actions  

Considering

they have not taken them back to the Playoffs – NO. I’d much rather have CarGo/Anderson and company for the next 6 years…

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 12:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Rox

nice summary, but you are discounting the fact that Gordon didn;t play baseball till his senior year in HS…..similar path that Matt Kemp took, as they both played basketball in HS. I am not saying he will turn into Kemp, but he obviously needs a little more seasoning, even though he is older than the normal prospect in Low A.
I am not sure where you get that he is a questionable middle infield defender….I;ve read that he gets to balls alot of SS don’t get to. Sure he had alot of errors last year, but most were throwing, and that is correctable.
I think you are selling him short.
I think LA included Gordon in their offer to Cleveland for Cliff Lee last year…..wonder what they are thinking now? Their haul for Lee may not amount to much at the big league level.
Sure, LA traded some top prospects in Santana and Bell, but that is what teams have to do to make a run at the World Series.
Yes, LA has a fine crop of pitchers in AA and lower…..and Withrow has more than one pitch. Withrow should be in LA in 2011.

raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM MST reply actions  

The lack of baseball experience is a pretty good counterpoint

As Rockies fans will be able to remember how Matt Holliday and Dexter Fowler had similar profiles as athletes that focused more on other sports in HS (football for Holliday and basketball for Fowler) and who put up middling minor league stats their first couple of seasons but turned out to be solid MLB baseball players nonetheless. That said, I don’t think Gordon measures up yet, he’s still behind the curve of those two and other players that have had similar backgrounds but gone on to success. We’ll see how he does in 2010 at Inland Empire, he should be able to put up pretty solid numbers in the Cal League as a 22 year old.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 10:58 AM MST up reply actions  

+1

he will probably end the season in AA, and make his way to LA in Sept. 2011

raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Feb 24, 2010 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Speaking to your other points,

In 2009, the Rockies traded Connor Graham (a decent pitcher, but not a top 100 prospect) for Rafael Betancourt, who provided twice as much value down the stretch as George Sherrill did for the Dodgers. We also traded Brandon Hynick (another decent pitcher, but not top 100) for Jose Contreras. In 2007, the Rockies traded Matt Macri for Ramon Ortiz (alright, not much help, but he won game 163) and Byung Hyun Kim for Jorge Julio. I guess my point is that you don’t have to give up your top prospects to be able to get help to make a run at the World Series.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

and LA

traded Andy LAroche and Bryan Morris for Manny

raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Feb 24, 2010 11:15 AM MST up reply actions  

Yeah that was ridiculous

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 11:23 AM MST up reply actions  

I actually think the Santana for Blake trade has worked out pretty well for your team

And obviously that Manny deal was a steal at the time and continues to be one. That Santana has lived up to his most optimistic potential projections probably shouldn’t be held against your GM. Colletti did overpay for Sherrill, but no GM’s perfect.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 11:23 AM MST up reply actions  

I meant to link this today,

I was going to look back just to make sure nobody else had this past week, but there are a couple of interesting Rockies prospect tidbits in this Tulsa World article about Drillers manager Ron Gideon’s visit to ONEOK Field.

Particularly of note, early indications are that Wilin Rosario will move up to Tulsa (along with Hector Gomez and Charlie Blackmon), Christian Friedrich seems likely to throw the first official pitch in the new stadium as the Drillers ace, but that’s still up in the air apparently, and Anthony Jackson could be moving to second base.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 10:45 AM MST reply actions  

Correct me if I'm wrong

But isn’t Parker out with tj this year? That may explain his low ranking.

by David OhNo on Feb 24, 2010 11:05 AM MST via mobile reply actions  

yes he is

raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Feb 24, 2010 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

I guess I wasn't clear.

I don’t know how a reasonably reliable surgery like tj has become would keep him from ranking higher when he’s still likely to be back and pitching in the majors in 2011. His ceiling’s the same, meanwhile Matzek’s not supposed to reach the MLB until 2012 probably at the earliest but ranks thirteen spots higher.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 11:09 AM MST up reply actions  

Because there are still enough guys

that don’t come back the same pitcher from TJ. See: Liriano, Francisco…

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 12:04 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree

better to give it time. I think (have no evidence to back this up whatsoever) that pitchers that rely on breaking pitches have a tougher time coming back from TJ than pitchers that are more fastball pitchers. Liriano used to rely on that devastating slider, that just wasn’t there last year.

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 12:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Pitcher TJ

is not the same as position player TJ, and position player TJ is not the same as 1B TJ.

Still, once you’ve had one, you’re more prone to having another. Even though he’s a 1B, and his defense won’t be much affected, I wonder how much it affects/alters your swing over time.

by deacs on Feb 24, 2010 12:06 PM MST up reply actions  

What 1B are you talking about?

Both Liriano and Parker are both pitchers…

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 12:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Liriano's still an MLB caliber starter. I would argue that there are also still enough highly touted HS pitching prospects

that don’t work out to that level, see: Pawelek, Mark, or Kiker, Kasey that it would still be more of a risk to put Matzek or any HS pitcher without minor league experience ahead of him at this point.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree with you on that

I’ve never been a fan of ranking guys with no pro experience ahead of someone who has been highly successful like Freidrich – I was just pointing out that TJ is no sure thing. Liriano is absolutely still a league average starter…but before his TJ surgery he was dominant.
Pre TJ – 2.74ERA, 11.0 K/9, 1.016 WHIP, 163 ERA+
Post TJ – 5.12 ERA, 8.0 K/9, 1.495 WHIP, 84 ERA+
 (I’d use FIP – but BR is easy to isolate those years)

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 2:41 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm more or less in agreement

However, Parker’s delivery wasn’t necessarily clean in the first place, and TJ could give some pause if they were already slightly concerned.

I’d argue that Matzek’s arm action appears more clean and effortless, but also don’t consider my self a kinesiologist.

by David OhNo on Feb 24, 2010 12:44 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I was wondering about that too

I love baseball america (read it almost daily), and I found it interesting that they had Matzek appearing in 2012. So that would mean Single A this year, a jump to AA in 2011, and the bigs on 2012? That seems aggressive, but maybe the kid can do it. Thoughts?

by noelman31 on Feb 24, 2010 2:17 PM MST up reply actions  

He wouldn't be the first high school lefty to make that jump in recent years for a contender in the NL West

And Kershaw was actually pitching in the majors at 20. Matzek is already 19.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 2:23 PM MST up reply actions  

If all goes right

Than that may be even a little conservative. You got low A to start this season. If he is tearing it up, he will finish at high A. Than you got AA in 2011 and who knows where he could finish. I’m sure they will be pretty conservative, but you never know if he will force it.

by mkorpal on Feb 24, 2010 2:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Cargo at leadoff??

seriously? why not Fowler?

raygu
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www.sbnation.com

by Ray Guilfoyle on Feb 24, 2010 11:08 AM MST reply actions  

Because it'd help the dodgers win

The stats for Fowler and Cargo show that Cargo performs much better then Fowler at lead off, and Fowler performs much better in the 2nd hole then at leadoff

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions  

They want the faster of the two going second, they’re worried about Helton catching up to all of em.

Seriously though, Fowler did much better hitting 2nd, and admitted he was much more comfortable. The way CarGo was going at the end of the year, didn’t matter where he was.

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by frightened inmate #2 on Feb 24, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions  

actually it did....

when he was put somewhere else than lead-off spot, he didn’t hit very well.

by Colsportsfan on Feb 24, 2010 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't agree with it

but it seems to be based on how they performed in their roles last year and their comfort level with it

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 11:13 AM MST up reply actions  

I know I think ideologically

Having Fowler in the leadoff with a the bigger bat in the 2-hole would produce more runs.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 11:14 AM MST up reply actions  

How much stock do you put into

having a lineup that can go left (Cargo), right/switch (Dex), left (Helton, right (Tulo), left (Hawpe), right (CDI), left (Stewart), right (Barmes)?

Not the way it should be drawn up according to SABER stats but it will probably drive opponents nuts.

"I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats." - Bill Veeck.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 24, 2010 9:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Shouldn't Dex be in front of Cargo?

"I have discovered in twenty years of moving around a ball park, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats." - Bill Veeck.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 25, 2010 7:56 AM MST up reply actions  

that bottom of the order was brutal

our #18 and #19 hitters couldn’t swing a lick

Attention Whore.

by Muzia on Feb 25, 2010 9:00 AM MST up reply actions  

and yet Iannetta was STILL talking walks in the 17-hole

rather than getting clutch RBI

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 25, 2010 9:14 AM MST up reply actions  

I will be very entertained if both he and Jimenez are in our 2015 rotation

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 11:47 AM MST up reply actions  

Sweet

Here’s some video.

Also, some info by way of Tracy Ringolsby (from last year):

"(Jiminian’s) fastball sits at 88-89 mph and has touched 91 for some teams," according to Baseball America. "His mechanics and feel for pitching are both advanced for a 16-year-old, with a loose arm and a projectable body. Jiminian shows feel to spin a curveball and will also mix in an occasional sinker."

by phishbate on Feb 24, 2010 11:52 AM MST up reply actions  

Jimini Cricket!

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Feb 24, 2010 11:59 AM MST up reply actions  

+1

I’m going to ask people far wiser then myself, I’m guessing that as he matures and grows that fastball is going to increase in velocity. Do we have any data on how Ubaldo was throwing at that age?

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 12:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Hope not

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 12:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Somehow

16 year olds throwing good curveballs concerns me.

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 12:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Matzek was 16 not too long ago...

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Yea

I mean more as a group – seems like the elbow injury risk factor is high – i’m sure there are plenty of kids it would never affect, but plenty that it’s an undue risk for. Kyle Boddy wrote some good stuff on it last year.

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Feb 24, 2010 12:24 PM MST up reply actions  

get used to that sinker, kid

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 24, 2010 12:38 PM MST up reply actions  

The Rockies have been linked to him since july

I’m curious what took so long to lock this up. Prospect fans should file this name next to Herrera and Mejias, in their DSL players to watch file, though Mejias likely comes stateside this year.

by David OhNo on Feb 24, 2010 12:38 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

The Rockies do tend to get these players relatively late,

What I found interesting about reading Ben Badler’s blog post about this is that Victor Payano, whom the Rockies were also linked to at one point but signed with the Red Sox instead for a huge bonus, failed his physical and ended up with Texas. IIRC, Kiley McDaniel had also said we had some interest in Luis Jolly, who Badler says wound up with the Angels. If Payano’s Red Sox physical really did show some trouble brewing, it would seem with Herrera and Jiminian, we wound up with the two best bets of the prospects we were originally linked to.

by Rox Girl on Feb 24, 2010 3:07 PM MST up reply actions  

sweet, more pitching, om nom nom.

I mean, say what you like about the tenets of Rockies baseball, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

by squalene203 on Feb 24, 2010 12:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah

I think the Rockies investment in the Latin America baseball scene is paying a hundred-fold.

by Chacinisthefuture on Feb 24, 2010 1:13 PM MST up reply actions  

O'Dowd's extension this offseason is for 4 or 5 years

according to Renck.

Jim Tracy a three-year contract this winter….I learned today from a source that O’Dowd’s extension is a little longer than Tracy’s, but I am not sure of the length.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 2:47 PM MST reply actions  

good.

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 24, 2010 3:26 PM MST up reply actions  

weird

That’s like IsoD minus slugging, if I’m thinking correctly. not sure I like it

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 24, 2010 6:43 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

it seems pretty meaningless to me

it’s basically walks plus extra base hits – or OPS minus singles.

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 24, 2010 7:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Since OPS counts singles twice (as the AVG part of a player's OBP and in the SLG)

but doesn’t do that with any other type of hit, it seems to me like counting it this way could be a better indicator of a player’s skills.

by Rox Girl on Feb 25, 2010 7:06 AM MST up reply actions  

that's a good point

I wasn’t thinking about it singles being double counted. PF and I were thinking about it as OBP-AVG+SLG, when SLG-AVG+OBP makes much more sense, or OBP+ISO.

Then again, wOBA is still more useful imo.

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 25, 2010 7:21 AM MST up reply actions  

a quick exploration reveals the following:

wOBA —————————- OPS —————————- BaseRate
1 Albert Pujols (0.449) —— Albert Pujols (1.101) ——- Albert Pujols (0.774)
2 Joe Mauer (0.438) ——— Joe Mauer (1.031) ——— Prince Fielder (0.715)
3 Prince Fielder (0.42) —— Prince Fielder (1.014) —— Adrian Gonzalez (0.681)
4 Joey Votto (0.418) ——— Joey Votto (0.981) ———- Carlos Pena (0.666)
5 Kevin Youkilis (0.413) —- Derrek Lee (0.972) ——— Joe Mauer (0.666)
6 Derrek Lee (0.412) ——- Kevin Youkilis (0.961) —— Derrek Lee (0.666)
7 Hanley Ramirez (0.41) — Adrian Gonzalez (0.958) — Adam Dunn (0.661)
8 Ben Zobrist (0.408) ——- Hanley Ramirez (0.954) — Joey Votto (0.659)
9 Alex Rodriguez (0.405) —- Ben Zobrist (0.948) ——- Kevin Youkilis (0.656)
10 Ryan Braun (0.405) —— Mark Teixeira (0.948) —— Mark Teixeira (0.656)

The best bats are rising to the top one way or another, in the forms of Pujols, Mauer, Fielder…but Dunn? Pena? This system seems to overreward low-average-high-slugging hitters.

I’m gonna take this over to BtB.

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 25, 2010 9:10 AM MST up reply actions  

It is interesting, A-Rod, Hanley Ramirez and Ben Zobrist disappear.

My guess is BtB wouldn’t like it for that alone.

I should also correct/clarify my earlier statement that singles are double counted but other hits are not. That’s not true, all hits are double counted in the AVG part of OBP, it’s just that singles there are given a lot more weight than they probably should be. And I agree about wOBA being better, to get from here closer to a wOBA or linear weights type of system one would need to discount the OBP-AVG part to reflect the lower value of walks.

by Rox Girl on Feb 25, 2010 9:55 AM MST up reply actions  

I've been kind of racking my brain about this too

and it again depends on how we’re viewing it, is it OBP-AVG or SLG-AVG…the latter makes more sense, seeing how SLG is overweighted in OPS (which makes guys like Alfonso Soriano appear more valuable than they are), but simply hacking off singles doesn’t seem a good way to properly value it.

It’s not bad for scoreboard watching, but Pena and Dunn are not top-10 batters and Adrian Gonzalez is not a top-3 bat.

Their ideas aren’t too terrible, at least at a cursory evaluation standpoint, but as someone else said in the BtB fanpost I made, it doesn’t seem to really add that much more over OPS.

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 25, 2010 11:41 AM MST up reply actions  

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010/2/25/1326171/mlbn-flexin-their-sabr-chops-base

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by Russ Oates on Feb 25, 2010 9:57 AM MST up reply actions  

While we're speaking of Dominicans

My sister returned from a mission trip to the Dominican Republic, and before she went I told her to ask the people there their opinion of Ubaldo. Some of them had no idea who she was talking about, but some of them consider him a hero because of the WBC and they attempted to follow him along with the Rockies as a result. :)

Impossible not to have positive thoughts.

I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.

by bballrox4717 on Feb 24, 2010 10:01 PM MST reply actions  

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