Beating the …Unicorn?: Seth Smith and the Outfield Conundrum
I must be crazy. I am really sitting here writing an article on Seth Smith, which is already sailing dangerous waters. I'm a noted fanboy of the man, so the gut reaction is that it's just going to be 1200 words on why Seth Smith continually battles Dr. Doom, is a part-time astronaut, and can make baseballs center themselves on his bat using just the power of his mind.
But seriously, I'm trying to make an objective exploration of the topic. Not just saying "HAY GUYS HERE'S WAR NOW DEAL WITH IT", but kind of breaking down the individual numbers, extrapolating a bit, trying to compare piece by piece what's going on.
Now the obvious counterpart of this debate is Brad Hawpe, all-bat-no-glove. Again, I'm striving for objectivity in this piece. It may not be easy, but if I'm going to attempt to present this information in a palatable form, I can't just say "LOOK AT SMITH'S NUMBERS WOOOOO HAWPE IS A BAD FIELDER", but I really just need to demonstrate the methods used and how I reached my conclusions. Which I hope I can do in this.
So the big debate is who should start, Brad Hawpe or Seth Smith? It seems we've already given the starting roles to Dexter Fowler and Carlos Gonzalez, on virtue of the nicest smile in the majors and the LAZOR (which I don't really agree with), leaving only one OF spot available to fill, leaving the fight up to Ryan Spilborghs, Brad Hawpe, and Seth Smith. Now, unless Spilborghs suddenly starts showing numbers like he did in 2008 and 2 of the other 4 outfielders suddenly is unable to perform their duties as an outfielder (God forbid) (and if you think about it, that'd be the only way for Spilborghs to actually prove he deserves more playing time), it really looks like we're debating whether to have an OF of Gonzalez-Fowler-Hawpe or Smith-Fowler-Gonzalez.
Now, the blatant debate here is one of total value. Hawpe is very poor defensively, and Smith (in an admittedly limited sample from which to draw conclusions) appears to be pretty solid defensively. Hawpe, however, swings a big club at the plate, and Smith, while solid, doesn't really stack up, purely bat-to-bat. However, Smith excels at being a pinch hitter.
So let's break this down piece by piece, just past the jump.
We're first going to look at the standard AVG/OBP/SLG slash stats. Then we're going to take a look at wOBA (which is a bit skewed, as I didn't use current linear weights to calculate it - reason I did it myself is that there aren't wOBA splits for situational hitting available, and so rather than use Fangraphs' wOBA for the full-time play and then calculate my own for the pinch hitting and such, I just did it all myself for the sake of consistency). Our next step will be to find a quick-and-dirty wRAA (runs added, see this article for background) by multiplying wOBA by PA. Finally, I DID just use UZR straight from Fangraphs to add in a defensive run value for both. Now, I know there's objections to UZR, but it's there, it's simple enough to use, I understand that it's not perfect, so let's just roll with it for the sake of this article. If you hate it to the point of not accepting any conclusions drawn that include it, you might as well stop reading here. Or take the numbers that I use and plug in your own preferred defensive metric. So our final tally will end up with a Total RAA (Runs Above Average).
Just so we're all aware, these aren't park-adjusted or anything fun like that, but seeing how we're dealing with 2 Rockies players and not like Brad Hawpe v Kyle Blanks or anything, it'll do the trick for the sake of evaluation.
Anyhow, on to the analysis.
Let's begin with Hawpe, because we all kind of know what I'm about to write here anyhow.
Hawpe had a very good season overall, just looking at the macro view of the entire season. He batted .285/.384/.519, good for a .903 OPS and a wOBA of .403 (again, remember, faulty linear weights, so this won't line up with Fangraphs, but it's consistent throughout this evaluation). Hawpe posted 588 PA over the season, and that makes his offensive value 37.1 runs, or about a 3.5-win player at the plate.
The downside is obviously that he's a poor RF. Strong arm still, but nobody really runs on him anymore. Hawpe's UZR over the course of the season totaled out to -21.3 runs, or about -2 wins. All said and done, Hawpe provided 15.8 runs in the positive direction, about a Win and a half.
Now here's where it gets interesting.
Seth Smith had a dual-role again on the team, as a part-time starter and a significant pinch-hitter.
As a starter, Smith batted .293/.378/.510, OPS of .889 and wOBA of .359. With 327 PA as a starter, that meant Smith provided 8.1 runs at the plate. His fielding was also very good, and UZR dubbed him a 6.8 run defender in his limited playing time as a fielder. It should be noted that the UZR number includes time as a defensive replacement, but that'll really just add in a small amount of value, when you consider the inning load. Totaling that up, Smith was a 14.9 run player, or just shy of a 1.5 win player, which interestingly enough, is just below where Hawpe was with more PA as a starter.
As part of the exploration, I extrapolated Smith's time as a starter out to if he had the same number of games as a starter as Hawpe did. The slash lines all stay the same, but his value at the plate becomes 14.5 runs, 12.2 runs defensively, 26.6 overall, about 2.5 wins.
But what's really interesting is his PH value.
Smith was OTHERWORLDLY as a pinch hitter. His batting line was downright Ruthian.
In the pinch, Smith batter .472/.574/.861, OPS'd 1.436, and had a wOBA of .611 - you read that right. In 47 PA as a PH, Smith provided 11.4 runs. For those of you keeping score at home, that's MORE RUNS than he provided as a starter. Disgusting.
Now, obviously as a PH, that has 0 fielding value, so he's just over a Win as a PH.
So if we sum up Smith's value as both a part-time starter and a PH, that's 19.5 runs of offense. Add in his 6.8 runs of defense and we have 26.3 runs, right around 2.5 wins. That's in part-time duty.
Now, if I felt we were done here, we'd have a pretty blatant case to just keep Smith as a PH and use that absurd value to win every close game ever. But we have to temper our expectations going forward. First of all, those numbers are in NO WAY sustainable. That's a .571 BABIP. That's unreal. Nobody is that good. No, not even Smith. He was somewhat of a PH jewel in 2008, but he posted a .257/.381/.514/.895/.411 line - which is still excellent, but it's also far more realistic than what we saw in 2009.
So now to bring it all together, it's kind of a tough thing to do, for several reasons.
1. The pinch hitting line is in no way realistic for next season. It just isn't. If we just add up the value of Hawpe in a similar amount of playing time and Smith in his mixed role, they combine to just over 4 wins. That's awesome. But it's not repeatable, because of reason #2.
2. There are more guys vying for (and deserving of) playing time, namely one Carlos Gonzalez. Had Gonzalez put up his season numbers for an entire season (again, based on Hawpe's playing time), he's a 33.9-run player, just over 3 wins. He's not going to only get 3 months of consistent playing time this season. There's just no way.
3. There's no way to do a fair evaluation of how well Smith will pinch in 2010. I'd argue he'd repeat his 2008 numbers (give or take) if still stuck in that role. The problem is that the 2008 line is only worth about 3 runs.
4. We have Jason Giambi now to be a primary pinch hitter.
Given those problems, trying to move forward and say "WELL HERE'S THE BEST COMBINATION, DEAL WITH IT" is kind of specious, because there are just too many variables to take into play. I mean, if we just use the extrapolated "full season" model to try and pick the best 2 guys to play the corners (we're assuming Dex is not going to move from CF barring catastrophe), it's obviously going to just pop out Smith and Cargo, good for about 6 wins, which ain't bad. Hawpe and Smith give us right above 4 wins, and Hawpe and Cargo are just shy of 5 wins. I mean, just looking at that, the best-case scenario that includes Hawpe is a full win less than the next best option. With the reality of Smith's PH numbers coming back down to the realms of the feasible and the playing time taken away by the fact that Gonzalez gets starts now too, we can't just slap the OF into the same cookie cutter we had last season.
Call me a sucker for defense, but the Rockies were 14 runs below average in the field last year, and that frankly just isn't acceptable. Offense is going to be inflated at our park, that's just not going to change, but we need to be putting our best foot forward wherever we can. We've stressed the infield defense so much based on the groundballing philosophy that we seem to have forgotten that we have an outfield the size of Rhode Island. The metrics all agree on just about everything we know about our 4 primary starting candidates in the outfield: Gonzalez is a very good defensive outfielder, Smith is above average, Fowler has some learning to do, and Hawpe is pretty much abysmal.
I don't mean to hate on Brad Hawpe. I honestly, truly don't. Beneath this Excel spreadsheet with legs beats the heart of a guy who loves the players who play for our team, for the spark they bring, for the excitement and enjoyment they give me for those 3 hours at the ballpark when the rest of my life waits outside for me, for their quirks and foibles, both on and off field, and because I've been able to watch them since their rookie years.
The problem here is that I've come across a new addiction: Winning.
I want to win, and I want to jam those wins down the gullets of every sports outlet that ignores us, every commentator who doesn't bother to learn anything past the humidor, and every snarky analyst who figures that us not spending $140M a season makes us a franchise that just doesn't want it enough.
During 2005-2007, I viewed the team as a family. We supported each other when we failed, we cheered when guys who were slumping like mad finally got a hit, we cheered when prospects finally began to show what all the hype was about. But now that we're past the magic and pixie dust, it's time we start viewing this team as a business, an organization intent on making some Wins. Baby, after 2009, business is looking good.
That's really what it's gonna come down to. If we want our team to flourish in the limelight, we need to scrape those wins from wherever they might come. If we can add another win of value by playing the less glamorous but overall better alternatives, we need to do it. I'm not trying to say "OH NOES HAWPE WILL BE ATKINS A BLOO BLOO BLOO", I'm saying that Hawpe is a destructive bat and a destructive fielder as well.
Smith may have the sparkle as a pinch hitter, and a lot of that shine will be hidden by the extra dirt on his uniform, but the way I see it, the fewer runs we allow, the fewer runs that we're gonna need late inning unicorn magic for.
So how do I conclude this...again, it's tricky. Hawpe provided a lot of offensive runs for us in the first half of last season, and his defensive problems were somewhat swept under the rug. During the second half, however, when his bat cooled off, he played as basically a replacement-level player, all things considered.
So I guess we get creative. Hawpe's probably gonna start out of the gates, and if he bats like he does in the first half, we reap as much benefit as we can from that. But frankly, I'm just not convinced he's the guy to stick with moving forward, especially with 3 capable starters in Fowler, Gonzalez, and Smith, a solid backup in Spilborghs, and guys like Cole Garner not too far away.
Again, the sentimental side of me doesn't want to see another one of our boys depart, but the side of me that's hungering for winning realizes that Hawpe turning back into a pumpkin when he reaches the outfield isn't going to be the best way for us to reach the dance.
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I think this brings up an interesting point about Spilly that you touched on briefly
Not only is he the odd man out, he is the odd man out by a LONG SHOT. It would take a guy turning into ice (or injury) for Spilly to even see at bats more than once a week. As our outfield currently stands, I can’t see any scenario that gives him more than 200-250 ABs throughout the season. Is this a good thing? Well, it’s better than depending on Cory Sullivan…
Our bench is almost too strong, too many components make for some parts simply not getting the use they need to stay fresh and ready to play.
(And I am petrified of the MicroManager having so many parts to tinker with, but that’s another story altogether)
Thoughts?
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
is youre going to have a micro manager
The absolute best case scenario is to have s starter-quality bench. As you say, at least it isn’t Cory Sullivan. Or Omar.
Spilly’s other connection to this discussion – he had an otherworldly near-Smith quality year as a pinch-hitter not long ago at all. And the next year…there is undoubtedly some amount of punch-hitting skill, but the amount from that gained is dwarfed by small sample size fluctuations
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 11:35 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
It seemed everytime there was a lefty starter we saw Spilly starting against him
I can see that continuing again this year. which is ok as long as Spilly can improve his numbers against lefties this year. last year he only hit .230 against lefties, which is awful for him! We would be better off leaving Smith or Hawper out there. In 08 he hit .320 right on left. If he can regain that form he would be a lock.
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
Solution to Outfield Defense...
If we have an outfield the size of Rhode Island, we should really just plug in RhodeIslandRoxFan. I’m assuming he’d be familiar with the size
Why do you hate Brad?
Seriously, great article.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
Great article!
I guess this is a great position to be in for our team. We have too many good players in the outfield to chose from. A couple of things I have been considering lately about Smith Starting vs. Hawpe would be:
1. Smith is a legit 2 hole hitter, which means we can move Cargo to the 5 hole. That would be provide us more slugging percentage in two places in the lineup that really need it.
2. Smith’s numbers are based on still a pretty limited sample size. He only had 387 PA last year. I think we might get a lot better idea of who he is offensively if he came to the park everyday knowing he was hitting 2nd in front of Helton. Seth Smith could very realistically be a .315 hitter. Combine that with consistently good defense and he is a much better option than Hawpe (whom I love as well). We know what Hawpe’s ceiling is, probably better than any player in the NL. He’s going to hit .285 with around 20 home runs. We really don’t know for sure what Seth Smith’s ceiling is at all. I would guess that Smith can be a .300+ hitter based and what we’ve seen and if he is given a fair shot with 500+ PA.
I say, start him!
All Smith can do is play himself into the line-up
And I hope he manages it. But with so many talents so (relatively) closely matched, what I want most is for the players in the best form to start the season, whoever they may be.
LOOK AT SMITH'S NUMBERS WOOOOO HAWPE IS A BAD FIELDER
’nuff said
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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Oh, and very well (and thoroughly) put.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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by Jeff Aberle on Mar 10, 2010 11:52 AM MST up reply actions
You forgot Todd's decling number of playing days...
I think all things to be considered; Hawpe is really a converted first baseman with a first baseman’s range. He has been a consistant middle of the road first baseman hitter. I love Todd’s approach at the plate and all he has accomplished. The truth is Todd is putting up third outfielder’s numbers. Todd has a history of back problems and is at the point where similar hitters with similar injuries fell off. ( ref; Kieth Hernandez & Don Mattingly ). I actually think Hawpe’s time in the outfield will extend his useful years as a first baseman. Smith is more of a contact hitter and is the effective replacement to Todd’s bat. Hawpe as a first baseman is probably going to be no worse as Todd is now defensively.
My point is that the Rox don’t have a viable 1B in the pipeline. Giambi is a liability in the field and Todd needs more tme off. A line up with Cargo, Dex, and Smith in the outfield and Hawpe at first base is a reality waiting to happen . Don’t Mark me as a Todd hater. I eventually see him as our Rusty Staub.
What will likely happen is that Hawpe doesn't get used at first much at all this year.
Giambi requires a certain amount of PAs and subbing for Helton is the way he’s going to get them. Should there be an injury it would be Hawpe’s time to step in.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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by Jeff Aberle on Mar 10, 2010 11:56 AM MST up reply actions
defensive liability be damned, i think the plan for 2010 is to start Giambi on Helton's days off
In the future, Hawpe could be a viable option at first, but the article is addressing 2010 specifically. Hawpe won’t get enough ABs at first as a third string first baseman this year to really clear up the OF situation much.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:00 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not on board with a Hawpe-as-first-baseman-of-the-future line of thinking
To my mind he’s going to be too expensive for his offensive production. Maybe I’m spoiled from 13 years of Todd Helton, but I don’t see Hawpe putting up the kind of numbers you need from a first baseman. Simply from a payroll standpoint, I’d prefer trading Hawpe, possibly for a B-grade first base prospect, although I don’t know if he’d even be worth that on the trade market. I’d rather a cheap player, albeit one who probably won’t match what Hawpe would bring, and spend that money elsewhere. Hawpe turns 31 this year, and by the time Helton walks off into the sunset over the Rocky Mountains I don’t think he’ll be near a first-base caliber hitter.
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 12:16 PM MST up reply actions
completely agree with CS
we need to work on lining up a solid first baseman of the future, not just plug Hawpe in there.
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 12:23 PM MST up reply actions
I agree with about a first base prospect...
With the talent they have on hand for this year is how I see things. You guys thought I was unrealistic on Mora.
im definitely falling more in line with this the more i think of it
Our first base options when helton’s contract expires in terms of worth over contract may very well be
1)iannetta
2)a homegrown prospect that takes off from here through 2012 in the minors or draft pick
3) a reasonable free agent a la laroche
4)helton himself
5)hawpe
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:32 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
and the point has been made before
but with above average slugging at other positions (C, SS, 2B) we can afford to have a non traditional 1B
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
that is certainly true
But in those situations, it would be gravy to actually have a legit 1B as well. Imagine if the Phillies had Adrian Beltre instead of Pedro Feliz
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:54 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I still can't believe they didn't pick up Beltre
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 1:07 PM MST up reply actions
I don't think he meant him specifically
but an offseason FA signing to fill the spot.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
i dont mean La Roche specifically in 2013
But someone similar. It seems there is always a La Roche or Kotchman to be had on the market
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:55 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
True story
First base is a very deep offensive position.
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 12:56 PM MST up reply actions
But do any of them = Hawpe.
I agree Hawpe is over paid. With baseball inflation; by the time the contracts cycle through he’ll be cheap.
certainly
By the time helton’s contract expires, if that’s even when he leaves this franchise, hawpe will be what – 34, 35? We could certainly find production at that level from a natural first baseman
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 1:51 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
isnt Helton's 2012 the option year?
thats not going to be picked up. I could see the buyout and then resign him cheaper but i will be very surprised if they keep him on at 24 mil or whatever that option is
Check last week's article about lefty splits
Basically, helton dominates RHP, so I can only see sitting him v LHP, and Giambi hits LHP better than Hawpe. I just don’t see any time for Hawpe at 1B.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 12:41 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Before I read this
I didn’t really have a horse in the race..I like both guys. But I really do believe that if given the chance, Smith will far outperform Hawpe.
Like you said, I too am addicted to winning…winning the NL West this year is a must for this team…and I think Smith gives us the better shot.
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
i realized that
when I posted it..I love Hawpe…don’t get me wrong…I think he brings a lot to the team…just don’t think he should get the starting nod over Smith…
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
as I've said before, I am not confident that Smith will reproduce these numbers as a full time starter
but I absolutely think he has earned the opportunity.
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
He has earned his chance
and I hope that he gets it…and it is nice to know that we have someone like Hawpe who can step in if Smith comes out of the gate flat at the plate…
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
yes that is exactly how I decide who
my friends are at PR….
/rolls eyes
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
:) thanks
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
I know I'm in the minority on the Hawpe debate
in fact, I’m probably the only one who thinks he deserves his starting role.
and I’m perfectly okay with that:)
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
You aren't the only one who thinks he deserves his starting role.
Apparently Jim Tracy also agrees.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
well, I meant here at the Row
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
we do get along!!
just we disagree on Hawpe
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
But you haven't given the rest of BSG or LOST
a chance….
heh…kind of like Smith not getting playing time. How can you evaluate?
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
Who will snap first?
SDCat from the constant “OMG SHES THE ONLY ONE WHO LIEKES HAWPE AND HATES EVERYONE WHO DOESNT” or RMN from the “cree.p”?
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 12:18 PM MST up reply actions
RMN
in a landslide.
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
RMN
In a landslide.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 12:43 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
great article today
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
well, I'm guessing RMN
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
Empirical evidence will wear her down eventually.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
contemptuous chipper.jpg
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 4:15 PM MST up reply actions
nope
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
I think I agree
Smith is a consistent player
Hawpe isn’t, at all
Consistency is good in baseball.
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
"I mean come on, you can’t be from Nebraska and go to school at CU, I think they take away your overalls or one of your last remaining teeth for that."
by Hollidayrain on Mar 10, 2010 12:04 PM MST up reply actions
/devils advocate
Hawpe has a .875 OPS over 2414 ABs.
Smith has a .874 OPS over 451 ABs.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
...and defense mitigates that quite a bit.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on Mar 10, 2010 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
Well, his defense is consistent...
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
im actually surprised Smith is that close to passing hawpe
What are their career wOBAs? Smith’s peripheral stats in the big leagues don’t really deviate from his numbers in the minors, so I’m not sure we could call him a flash in the pan.
His ability to improve is pretty close to the risk of flameout due to being unproven over a longer time period
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:22 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Hawpe - .372 wOBA
Smith – .379 wOBA
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 12:25 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not sure how much Smith can improve offensively
I think he’s at or near his ceiling already. He could sustain at this level I’m sure but he’s far from a lock, especially compared to Hawpe who’s been very consistent over his career offensively. We absolutely have to factor in defense as well, which is where Hawpe has weakness.
I worry that some (not either of you specifically) are putting too much stock in Smith to produce when he’s still relatively unproven compared to what Hawpe will do. I still think Smith deserves a shot starting regardless of what Hawpe does or doesn’t do.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
as a fan it's always fun to watch a team explore potential
rather than accomodate mid level potential. You may be right that Smith is at his ceiling, you may be wrong. I think we can ALL agree Hawpe has reached his ceiling and we know exactly what it is. Smith has only one full season in the bigs, so to say you know where his ceiling is seems a bit premature. I can see Smith being a .275 hitter on the low end but I can also see him being a .320 hitter on the high end. As I said, I would rather explore that, as that is what’s fun about following a team for me, then just lean on what we already know. The latter certainly has it benefits I will admit though.
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 12:48 PM MST up reply actions
rather than accommodate mid level potential production
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 12:49 PM MST up reply actions
I absolutely agree,
I’m a total sucker for potential, but I do my best to temper my own enthusiasm.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
thats about what i expected
Since smith is a pinch more obp driven
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:35 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
it would be interesting to see the win breakdown for all three outfielders
im wondering how close a Smith-Cargo-Hawpe outfield is to a Smith-Dex-Cargo
Just using CHONE WAR projections since they're quickly accessible on fangraphs:
smith – 2.4
cargo – 2.8
hawpe – 1.6
total – 6.8
smith – 2.4
dex – 2.3
cargo – 2.8
total – 7.5
Also, CHONE has spilly pegged at 0.8 WAR.
Actual results may vary.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
This seems as good a place as any to bring it up
but I have a sinking feeling (and I hope that I’m wrong) that Smith v Hawpe battle will be irrelevant in 2010. I worry that cargo won’t have as great a year as he did in the short burst at the end of 2009 and CF will alternate between cargo and dex for most of the year, leaving Smith & Hawpe with regular starts.
Both cargo and dex still have a lot to prove to me and I’m not fully convinced both can sustain top production for a full year.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
Funny quote I saw today about Gonzalez
From a fantasy baseball article on ESPN:
I’ve gotten the tattoo, registered the domain name, knocked someone up just to name the kid after him.
So it looks like Matthew Berry is on board the Gonzalez bandwagon. Why aren’t you? Hater.
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 12:27 PM MST up reply actions
love that
Ninety feet between home plate and first base may be the closest man has ever come to perfection. ~Red Smith
Haters gonna hate.
I love cargo but it’s too early to get the tattoo. :)
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
But you might as well impregnate someone right now
Cuz in 9 months he might have proven himself to you. Make sure you cover your bases.
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 1:01 PM MST up reply actions
My wife is due with our first in September
If he can put up monster numbers until then maybe we’ll consider the name Carlos :p
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
I've already talked my wife into naming our baby due in May Carlos
may be a little awkward for him being so white and all but I think we’ll make it work.
hence the beauty of our starting caliber bench
Tracy has the luxury of playing the hot bats. Although I completely disagree on the Cargo prediction. he’s an all star!
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not predicting that cargo will have a bad year
I just don’t think he’s produced at the major league level long enough to prove he can keep it up. He has all the talent to do it though.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
i devoted an entire rockpile to tempering expectations on cargo
What may be most important to analyze over who deserves to get playing time is how Jim Tracy sees things. He showed quite a bit of patience with cargo and dex last season, and he has stayed he wants at least 500 PAs for both in 2010. Even with our strong bench, a lot of struggling would have to happen for both before they become a consistent Cf platoon
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 10, 2010 12:50 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Absolutely
but I think there’s a decent chance that one or both will struggle for at least a portion of the season. They both should get a long leash in my mind but what if say both Cargo & Hawpe are struggling at the plate through April.
Do you see Smith taking more at bats away from Cargo or Hawpe?
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
I would guess Hawpe
since Hawpe and Smith are more similar to each other I see them replacing each other. If you start both of them you lose a lot of speed both in the outfield and on the bases.
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 12:58 PM MST up reply actions
I'd guess Hawpe
because when Cargo struggles, he’s still an excellent defender
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 1:10 PM MST up reply actions
This is a great problem to have, unless you happen to be S.Smith
And I like Andrew’s line on defense. In our field it is absolutely critical…I thought in Right field SS often looked lost ala Bichette out there, so I just dont see the defensive numbers justifying a switch, but I want to see him in Right for a while see how teams run on him and how he works with Dex
Mark me as undecided…As a coach myself I have a hard time replacing a team guy and longtime player in a system because another guy projects to maybe outperform him…The proof’s in the pudding and Brad has made and eaten way more than S.S.
But that being said, if SS outplays him in ST, (and it looks that way, early due to injury) maybe you use that as a reason to let SS run away with the position in the first month.
But man that sucks an all-star would be on the bench, and limiting his trade value, and Brad is a feel guy with that long loopy swing of his, and needs to be in the order to be effective.
Very interesting, I feel for the SS fans in the house but in the end I have to say whatever Tracy decides gets my endorsement as the right move…The guys (tracy and hawper) earned our loyalty I think, and as much as Stats and numbers are fun to look at and talk about, baseball is a show me sport…You gotta see the games from the dugout before judging too harshly…
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
I think that if Smith starts
He’ll be in left, not right. It would be Smith-Fowler-Gonzalez left to right.
by controlled_slide on Mar 10, 2010 12:29 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, the consensus is that cargo has the arm for RF.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
Maybe
you asking the wrong question. Maybe the question shouldn’t be why isn’t Smith starting over Hawpe? It should be is Smith our best OF and should be penciled in every day in LF with the other three to fill in the other two OF spots?
Very good point
It’s hard to make a meaningful statistical evaluation of dex and cargo simply from lack of playing time. Dex has a lot to learn in CF yet, but I think the fielding numbers will improve as he learns. His minor league numbers suggest he’s better than his showing in the majors. Cargo got hot at the right time, so we’ll have to see how legit he is.
My concern is that these evaluations won’t be considered by the people making the decisions and we’ll see platoons based purely on handedness and not on actual production.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 12:51 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Personally I am surprised Dex is a nailed-on starter
He’s great, but still learning and making (necessary and acceptable) mistakes. Perhaps he could ride the pine for a while?
I can agree to an extent
the problem with pulling anyone from the starting position especially the young guys is that you deprive them of valuable seasoning in the field and ABs agains major league pitchers. Catch 22 really. We know Dex is more than likely our center fielder of the future and the only way to grow him into that role is to get him as much playing time as possible while not exposing the team to risk if he is not performing to the level he needs to to produce wins for the team.
by BringItHome on Mar 10, 2010 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
I'm inclined to say
a primarily 4 man outfield rotation might be the best temporary fix (this year) with Spilly as the lesser used fifth guy. This is given the assumption that Hawpe is not injured, traded, or benched. Nobody is completely happy, but it kind of plays into a team concept. Hawpe can be the most frequently used DH candidate and maybe play a few innings of first in blow outs. This would also accomplish the overusing Hawpe problem that allegedly wore him down last year. I think I’d like to see Hawpe gone after this year. We probably have enough pitching depth to trade for a first baseman at some point in the next few years.
What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?
by Fiftytwoeighty on Mar 10, 2010 2:02 PM MST up reply actions
if we DON'T DH Hawpe I'm going to slap Tracy
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 10, 2010 4:16 PM MST up reply actions
Wondering of Hawpe gets hot early they don't pull the trigger
On trade for a reliever or a minor league First baseman. It seems fairly obvious to me with the depth that there is 0% chance his option is picked up.

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