Thursday Rockpile: Rox Girl is slightly afraid of Snakes, you should be too.
Okay, I spent all morning writing a drawn out response to Andrew Fisher's Diamondbacks post yesterday, so for links you just get bullet points from the Denver Post from me. If you've noticed some more yourself, feel free to post them in the comments.
- Brad Hawpe will have his 2010 Cactus League debut today, and Clint Hurdle returns
- Miguel Olivo needs to start more games over that other guy. What was his name? I forget. Kidding, kidding, kidding, folks.
- Something about Aaron Cook being classy to Ubaldo Jimenez. This is not a surprise because Aaron Cook is pure class.
I'm feeling a little sassy today as certain opinions I've expressed on the blog the last few months are getting assailed from different quarters including via friendly fire here at Purple Row. Time to step up and defend myself, but where to start? I think I'll go with what to me is the easy one, which is to actually defend the MLB team I dislike above all others, the Arizona Diamondbacks. Troy Renck's already written them off, and in the post just below this one, Andrew Fisher does the same. While I agree with Jeff Aberle that the Rockies are going to win the West, and I really think it's going to be a wider margin than people outside of Purple Row are expecting, overlooking the Snakes is a big mistake. Let me start with an obvious flaw in Andrew's conclusion yesterday:
Okay, I know this is doing open heart surgery with a butter knife if ever there was such a thing. There is certainly room for improvement above projections from some, but I think these predictions are certainly on the optimistic side of things. It assumes no injures, no personnel flux, at times includes more ABs than are possible for a given position, and assumes Kennedy and Webb stick to their workload potential.Assuming marginal improvement from the bullpen, this roster looks to be about 7.0 wins better than they were in 2009. That equates to 77 wins. Or - if you utilize their 2009 Pythagorean, an 82-80 record. So - are you scared of the Diamondbacks?
Put those seven wins back into the scale they came from, rather than the scales that Andrew switched them to at the very end of his piece. In 2009, the Diamondbacks had 34.0 WAR overall according to FanGraphs. 34.0 WAR plus 7.0 WAR equals 41.0 WAR. In 2009, the Dodgers and Rockies both had 43.9 WAR in finishing with over 90 wins. If we give teams a plus or minus of five wins from their projections, which I hope you realize as you read the rest of this is a very stingy figure and putting a lot more faith in projections than you probably should, the Diamondbacks are certainly capable of winning the division. Also, they are certainly capable of finishing fourth or even fifth again.
That said, I still think they're going to finish second unless I'm underestimating the Giants. Let me spell out the reasons that I'm right and you guys are all wrong, ;)
- Projections show the thinnest possible strip in the middle of what can be a large band of possible outcomes. At the end of the season, when we say teams are "surprising" or "disappointing" what we're usually really saying is that they were either above or below that thin strip in the middle by a large margin, as such, if you're looking for teams to surprise or disappoint in any given season, just looking at that mid-range projection won't be as useful as looking at the upper or lower ranges of those bands. The D-backs have a surprisingly high upper range (around 90 wins) for a team coming off a 70 win season.
- Somewhat related to that first point, projection systems will miss certain events completely. Obviously they can't foresee season ending shoulder surgeries for ace pitchers or drug suspensions for star outfielders, but beyond this, even some on-field events go outside what they typically convey to us.That is to say, some players' performances will be in the less than 1% tails at either end of their projection bands, and since most systems only concern themselves with 25th to 75th percentile range at best, seasons such as the 2009 versions of Pittsburgh's Garret Jones and Arizona's Chris Young (to use two examples at opposite ends of the spectrum) will seem to come at us out of nowhere.
- Because baseball is a meritocracy with a large player pool fighting for a small amount of jobs, these individual outliers and other unexpected events (the shoulder surgeries and drug suspensions) will tend to have an exaggerated impact on the standings. Player events like Jones' are likely to give teams an unseen boost as they muscle their way into previously weak lineup spots, player events like Young will leave teams vulnerable if they don't have adequate bench depth to replace them.
- Even though projection systems by their nature can't foretell these events, does not necessarily make them unpredictable. Specifically identifying the Garret Jones' of the baseball world may be a next to impossible task, but with knowledge of teams' systems one can identify likely sources for players like this to emerge. A team with a weak MLB starting roster but a lot of useful 25 to 28 year old AAAA types backing them up will likely see somebody emerge from the latter category to take the place of the former at an average or above MLB level of play. Conversely, teams which are overly reliant on players that are outside the seasons where we'd expect near peak production (let's just say from ages 26 to 32, you can quibble with the range, but the point stands) are far more likely to suffer disappointments relative to projections than those with cores in their prime.
- Many people find WPA as a somewhat useless stat when it comes to predicting stuff, which can make the few of us that know otherwise seem smarter than we really are. At the team level, it's a marvelous device for identifying teams that are being misjudged by either projections or the mainstream. Start in 2001 and just go through these charts year by year and look for some consistency. What you'll likely note is that good teams do tend to have positive WPA's and bad teams negative, but the range fluctuates and leaders in the category one year will often fall back to the middle of the pack or lower the next. In 2006, the Rockies had a deeply negative WPA that flipped to one of MLB's best in 2007. In 2008, the team fell back again before rebounding to the middle of the pack in 2009. Why do I feel Los Angeles is overrated and Arizona underrated? Partly because in 2009, the teams were at opposite ends of the WPA spectrum. Los Angeles was both lucky and good in 2009, Arizona was certainly unlucky, but I really don't think they were that bad talent wise, mediocre might be more like it. This will balance out, and it's likely to this season.
- The unbalanced schedule skews our perception of teams. After 2007, the Dodgers were underrated going into 2008 in large part because of their 34-48 record against the rest of the NL West despite having a more talented group than that. After 2008, the Rockies were underrated going into 2009 because of their 31-41 record against the West. After 2009? I'm guessing it's the Diamondbacks turn after a 30-42 record and that the Dodgers are most certainly being overrated after going 46-26. Like Tommy Lasorda's Slim fast commercials, a small type disclaimer needs to be made that these results are not typical given the talent levels of either club.
In fact, I believe the 2009 results are fudging the data, effectively making Los Angeles appear stronger talent-wise than they really are in 2010 projections, and Arizona weaker, similarly to how some projections for the Rockies heading into 2008 may have led us to be overly optimistic. Thankfully for our team in 2010, we're passing most of these stress tests (one notable warning flag is in the category of percentage of players that had the best season of their careers) I use to try and gauge teams as "likely to disappoint", whereas I see the Dodgers as really weak in several of the categories. The Giants likewise seem like they played above their heads in 2009. The Diamondbacks, on the other hand, keep on looking pretty good in the "likely to surprise" categories, which are pretty much the opposite of the above.
Since baseball's a zero sum game, if I'm predicting those two California teams (not to mention San Diego, who I also think will be losing more than they did in 2009) to drop back significantly this season (by more than five games), some other team has to be the beneficiary. To me, Arizona is easily the most likely candidate given that the Rockies probably don't have a lot of upper growth for this season from their 92 win campaign last year (I do think we're going to be right around 95 wins, but that's only a plus three).
So next, I'm going to tell you all why you're wrong about Brad Hawpe, but that one's admittedly going to be far trickier to prove.
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Comments
And people say PR has a groupthink mentality....
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The good news:
Helton’s contract is deferred, meaning he will probably be somewhat cheaper over the next few years.
The bad news:
We’ll likely be paying a 40 year with a bad back old 20+ million dollars. Helton or not, that’s playing with fire.
I’ll have a more informed opinion once I see the contract.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions
Looks like when they said deferred....
… they meant DEFERRED LIKE MAD.
I am liking this deal more and more.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions
Over 10 years, hell yes.
The salary is a small price to pay to keep Helton in purple pinstripes. This is awesome awesome news.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
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Best news in a long time.
Let’s go out and get Todd a WS ring to celebrate!
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
That's exactly what this puts the team in a position to do
there is a window right now, Helton wants a part of it and is giving us payroll flexibility to take advantage.
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
My point exactly.
Dan/Monforts, make it happen.
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Look out Dodgers...Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
Sweet....
Let’s use that payroll flexibility to lock in our young talent!
I know Ubaldo is already locked in for a few years, but if he turns in a huge year, does anyone think we re-visit his contract and throw even bigger bucks to keep him long term?
by attackparrot on Mar 11, 2010 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
I think this is win win win
Todd gets a nice pension (better tax situation), he can retire a Rockie, and Rockies can have more room in the budget.
by BringItHome on Mar 11, 2010 10:31 AM MST up reply actions
More detail from Renck
He was scheduled to make $19.1 million in 2011. As part of this new deal, he will get $10.6 million — a $6 million salary and the $4.6 million buyout which was converted into a signing bonus. So it saves the Rockies $8.5 million on next year’s payroll.
Huge.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
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This is fantastic.
My biggest problem with Helton was the giant chunk of money he took up. Now, we’ll have more budget flexibility than in recent years AND still have Helton.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
I cannot describe how happy I am right now.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
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Hell yes.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
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Woot!
Now my wife’s favorite player is going to give her 17 reasons to go to games at Coors Field!
by Rocky Mountain High on Mar 11, 2010 7:22 PM MST up reply actions
Helton has agreed to a two year extension according to Renck
Link here: http://blogs.denverpost.com/rockies/2010/03/11/helton-agrees-to-two-year-contract-extension/
According to the post he will also defer some of his salary over 10 years starting in 2014.
Holy crap yes!
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
I love you Todd!

"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
man can we retie number 17 right now
Dex Knows
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. -C.S. Lewis
by RockiesDave on Mar 11, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
I mean while he is still playing
Dex Knows
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. -C.S. Lewis
by RockiesDave on Mar 11, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
That would mean he'd have to switch numbers himself.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions
heh
Dex Knows
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. -C.S. Lewis
by RockiesDave on Mar 11, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions
not really
The number can be worn only by the player/person who retired it. Retire it now and Helton can keep wearing it.
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
There's something
simply beautiful about a baseball glove on top of your head
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by ShadowPenguin on Mar 11, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions
Deferring 13M starting next year
AND only 5M for 2012 and 2013?
Good lord, that is an absolute bargain
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
It really makes a lot of sense though
I don’t think he would want to go through free agency and this way he can just keep playing.
by BringItHome on Mar 11, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
I wanna send him a thank you card or something, hah.
Great for the team, and actually great for Todd as insurance as he’s aging.
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
Countdown 2010:
Opening Day @ Milwaukee | Home Opener vs San Diego
Hey we should all do this- from PR!
This is R year!
by prettyinpurple on Mar 11, 2010 10:35 AM MST up reply actions
Shoot he might have even signed for less if he had known the deal
would also include thank you cards from purple row.
by BringItHome on Mar 11, 2010 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
I think I'll actually work one up later today
I am so friggin’ happy.
Any idea how we can all sign a card digitally? Using our handles?
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
Hmm, maybe a fanpost and we just comment.
This is R year!
by prettyinpurple on Mar 11, 2010 10:43 AM MST up reply actions
You guys will never be able to verify this, but in my draft for my long Todd Helton piece about the HOF, I actually predicted this would happen
The last couple of seasons we have seen players from other teams such as Scott Rolen and Andruw Jones rework their contracts for the mutual benefit of themselves and their respective clubs. Given the relatively stable relationship Helton and the Rockies have right now, I’m somewhat expecting a similar arrangement to be reached between them after the 2010 season, which would guarantee Helton a 2012 contract and possibly a 2013 option with a buyout in exchange for a reduced 2011 commitment.
I now have to rewrite.
Sweet, I like this news
More Todd, retire as a Rockie! Woot!
But can someone familiar with contracts explain the deferring part?
All I know is that it loosely means the money won’t be on the books for that year, but when would it be paid out? Just curious how it would work out in the 10 years after 2014.
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by ShadowPenguin on Mar 11, 2010 10:27 AM MST up reply actions
The Rockies will owe him money through 2023, it looks like.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions
I imagine it's be a $1.xm/year for the following decade?
Matt Holliday (I think) has something similar that takes him through to 2029. Am I remembering that right?
I think they just consider it dead money
it’s just become an annual expense for them.
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
I think it pulls from a different bucket of cash...
As you alluded to above, it’s probably from the same bucket as front/back office salary. I believe the accountant in me wants to say “Special Expense – Restructuring” or like.
by attackparrot on Mar 11, 2010 10:43 AM MST up reply actions
As Far as Hampton goes.
I believe they have already set aside all the money necessary for him so it doesn’t affect future expenses another wise move by DOD.
by Chacinisthefuture on Mar 11, 2010 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
Ahhh, I see
Thanks for the clarification guys
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by ShadowPenguin on Mar 11, 2010 10:31 AM MST up reply actions
This seriously just made my day
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 11, 2010 10:58 AM MST up reply actions
Have you all seen the lead story on SI is Joe Posnanski discussing the curse of the LOLMets?
Ah yeah, read that earlier
Especially liked the whole “Mets are only team to spend 140 million+ and have a losing record” part
Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.
by ShadowPenguin on Mar 11, 2010 10:33 AM MST up reply actions
Less important transaction news:
We signed RHP Rick Bauer and LHP Scott Rice to minor league contracts.
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Anyone familiar with either?
Is this just roster filler?
"I’ve got a good breaking ball" - Melvin Mora
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Roster filler.
Both were out of MLB last year, in Korean and Independent leagues.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 10:42 AM MST up reply actions
RICK BAUER
beep….beep….beep….beep
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 11, 2010 11:00 AM MST up reply actions
Heh, I thought the same thing
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by ShadowPenguin on Mar 11, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
RG, how are you feeling on your Dbacks treatise
if Webb misses the first few months of the season or more. Do you feel they still have enough rotation talent to compete?
Iron Maiden? Excellent!
It depends on what "more" is.
One month? Probably. My real opinion is that without Webb, they’re still a sneaky good team on the fringe of contention, with him, they’re a bit closer to our level.
i think youre making my argument for me
By saying projections only achieve a small median strip of possible outcomes. I don’t deny this whatsoever. Based on the most optimistic projections we have, they are still behind the pace of the 09 Rockies. Sure, they could fall anywhere from 77 to 92, but especially with Webb possibly starting on the dl, the high side seems less likely.
If the Rockies take care of business and play anywhere near their talent level, they will be at the upward end of Arizona’s projections, where they will need a healthy Webb, return to prominence for Young and Drew, perhaps a breakout from someone else, and perhaps some pythagorean charm. This still doesn’t make me “worry” about Arizona, even if I acknowledge the possibility they could win upwards of 88 games. If we take care of business, the likelihood of a perfect storm leading Arizona past us is remote.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 11, 2010 10:52 AM MST via mobile reply actions
Perhaps what I'm saying that's different from you is probably more about the Dodgers than the D-backs then.
In that I really feel that Arizona might be more of a threat to the Rockies this season than Los Angeles. In the end, I think we win the division by more than five games over the second place team, so comparing them to us might not be the best standard.
it is strange
I can definitely are Arizona passing LA if things falls right, but I’m about as afraid of finishing behind Arizona as I was finishing behind frisco last year, and that’s saying something. What that amounts to, then, is that it seems the Rockies are the best team in the division, with a sufficient buffer. That kind of scares me.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 11, 2010 11:35 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Rox Girl, I thought your post was great as usual.
And I also really enjoyed Andrew’s article about the DBacks. They both bring up an issue that I’ve been interested in for a little while now. Most baseball projections and stats give some sort of mean rate, but as baseball involves stochastic processes, it seems to me that a distribution of numbers would be more appropriate. In most cases this would be difficult or impossible to do, but it seems like it might be possible to create upper and lower bounds. For example, it would be interesting to see the +/- 1 standard deviation win totals for the DBacks, or any other team. Alternatively, 25% and 75% bounds might be more intuitive. It would then be possible to see where these distributions overlap.
I agree, I wish to see these as well.
I think the projectionists might think it makes things too fuzzy when most sports fans like straight forward information, but those of us that understand that these things are fuzzy by nature and that there’s nothing to be done about that would get more out of them.
Say, I've got a question about your comment on WPA.
I don’t understand how the Rockies had nearly 0 WPA last year, but still had a winning record. If I understand correctly, both teams start a game with 0.5 probability of winning. At the end of the game, one team wins (+.5 WPA) and the other loses (-.5 WPA). Because WPA is conservative in the sense that it is independent of the path to arrive at a certain game state, I don’t see how a team could end the season with anything other than 0.5*(Wins-Losses).
Also, I’ve thought that it would be interesting to see a stat for RPA (Run probability added). The idea would be similar: you look at the projected number of runs, based on current game state, before and after each plate appearance. The advantage is that PAs in late innings of a lopsided game would receive equal weight to a close game, which doesn’t happen under WPA.
Programming note: the time I thought I had today for finishing up PR Academy is no mas...
hopefully I’ll get it done in the airport or in the hotel by Saturday. Otherwise, I’ll get it up in two weeks’ time because I’m going on Spring Break!
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
so i could have posted today instead of wedging it in last night
Oh well, fuel for a rox girl diatribe is never a bad thing
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 11, 2010 11:37 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, a RG diatribe is always welcome...
I’m sorry that I didn’t get PRA done, but we ended up leaving for our trip (to the Caribbean) a full day earlier than I had planned (I’m posting from an Atlanta hotel). I’m sure that you’ll all be waiting with bated breath for my next revenue sharing installment—with possible updates of minor league options charts and the future salary obligation spreadsheet.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Hmm, I certainly have had the same issues
My Giants NLWR got pushed back a little. But hey, it’s Spring Break
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 15, 2010 10:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Any news on when we're going to do another PurP tally?
I think I may actually be qualified to participate this time.
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I usually like to wait at least until after team assignments are official
As they’re a good indicator on where the Rockies minor league staff is ranking prospects or who might have bigger injury/downside concerns than we’re currently aware of if they get held back in extended.
Makes sense.
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by WolfMarauder on Mar 11, 2010 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
FWIW, Fangraphs posted top 50 NL prospects.
Friedrich at 7, Matzek at 14, Chacin at 34. In case you need more prospect lists.



















