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Todd Helton and the Hall of Fame

I thought I would wrap up Todd Helton week here by looking at where he is in his career, where he'll most likely end up, and what his chances of getting into the Hall of Fame after he retires are.

Helton, of course, just signed a contract extension that keeps him in the purple pinstripes until the locker rooms go dark at Coors Field for the last time in 2013. It's certainly possible that he'll continue on after that, but for our purposes here I'm going to assume that he'll retire after that season, giving him 16 full seasons, and taking him until just after his 40th birthday.

So, what can we expect of Helton over the next 4 years, what milestones might he hit and what would those milestones mean to the baseball writers in whose hands his Hall hopes lie? I'll start with a table showing where Helton is statistically now, what some reasonable milestones are for him, where those milestones put him historically, what he'll have to average over the next 4 years to get there, and who some players are around those milestones. After the table, I'll go into each statistic.

Star-divide

Statistic Current Total Target Rank                                  Player comps 4-Year Average
H 2134 2700 62 Ted Williams Lou Gehrig Billy Williams 142
2B 509 650 8 Nap Lajoie Carl Yastrzemski Honus Wagner 35
HR 325 400 46 Al Kaline Johnny Bench Andres Galarraga 19
RBI 1202 1500 51 Billy Williams Mickey Mantle Eddie Mathews 75
R 1222 1500 68 Eddie Mathews Al Simmons Frank Thomas 70
BB 1130 1500 18 Lou Gehrig Mike Schmidt Willie Mays 93
TB 3686 4600 36 Al Simmons Rickey Henderson Frank Thomas 229
BA .328 .320 54 Charlie Gehringer Chuck Klein Kirby Puckett .292
OBP .427 .415 25 Frank Thomas Stan Musial Wade Boggs .373
SLG .567 .550 27 Frank Thomas Hank Aaron Hack Wilson .490
OPS .994 .965 18 Larry Walker Stan Musial Mel Ott
wOBA .419 .410 51 Willie Mays Al Simmons Jackie Robinson .378
Rally WAR 57.3 70 54 Johnnie Bench Brooks Robinson Tony Gwynn 3.175

 

Note that the statistics are independent of each other - that is to say if he hits the counting numbers, they won't necessarily translate to the average numbers. In addition, I assumed that Helton would play in 10 fewer games in each successive year. Along those lines, I assumed 4 PAs per game with an extra 50 PAs tacked on to account for 5+-PA games and the occasional game that Helton would pinch hit or come in as a late-inning defensive replacement. That having been said, how likely are each of these pretty, round numbers for Helton to reach? I ranked each stat on a scale from 1-10, with 1 being not likely at all, and 10 being an absolute surety.

2700 Hits: Helton needs only 566 hits to get to 2700, so it's pretty likely that he gets there. 3000, which is an almost automatic induction into the Hall would require an average of 217 hits each year, a number Helton has reached only once in his career, so, unless he plays longer than 4 more years, he'll probably end somewhere between 2700 and 2800 hits. Likelihood: 8

650 Doubles: Helton would need 35 doubles a year to get here, which is rarefied air in baseball history. Doubles aren't a sexy stat when it comes to Hall of Fame voting, but a number like 650 might well get credit from more than a few voters. Helton is still at this level now, but 3 years from now, it's probable that he won't be. He might get enough this year and next to be able to get there, but it depends on how well his back holds up. Likelihood: 6

400 Home Runs: Helton just isn't a home run hitter anymore, and while 400 would be a very nice feather in his cap, he'll be hard pressed to come up with 20 home runs a year considering he hasn't been there since 2005. Likelihood: 2

1500 RBI / 1500 Runs: I lump these together as he's pretty much equally close, they have about as much sway with Hall voters and they're pretty much equally useless. With Helton's continued on-base and hitting skills, combined with the offense that's been assembled around him, he'll probably get to both of these levels. Likelihood: 8

1500 Walks: He's a bit of ways off here, and really Hall voters won't even look at this. Even though they totally matter. This is the kind of statistic that writers pull out to justify a borderline case, but I think they should be more important than that. Unfortunately, I don't get a vote, so, even if he gets here, only the basement types will care. Likelihood: 4

.320 Batting Average: This one matters a lot, and Helton's is superb. Among the traditional voters, this, plus the hits, will be Helton's biggest chip. Considering Helton would have to bat under .300 - something he's done in exactly 1 full season, and he was injured that year - over the next 4 years to drop his average to .320, I think he'll be fine. If his average is that low, it will probably be due to injury, so 1. he won't have as many plate appearances, which means his average won't go down as much and 2. He'll probably retire early if he's not being productive anymore. Likelihood: 9.5

.415 On-Base Percentage: Same as the average. It matters less right now than average, but it's definitely getting more airplay these days, and when Helton is up for the Hall, it will certainly have even more weight attached to it. This is Helton's best attribute, and I hope that the Hall voters treat it as such. Likelihood: 9

.550 Slugging Percentage: Helton isn't really a slugger anymore, so a .550 SLG is less likely than his OBP and BA numbers. However, a .545 SLG would only require a .469 average over the next 4 year, and .540 would require .447, both of which are likely enough to say that Helton probably won't end his career with a slugging percentage under .540. Likelihood: 3

.410 wOBA: This one really doesn't matter to Hall voters, but Helton's elite number here will probably sway the geeks of the baseball world. As long as Helton continues his elite on-base skills, he'll probably stay around this level. Likelihood: 8.5

70 WAR: This is WAR as calculated by Sean Smith's rally database. No, Hall voters don't look at this. Yet. But they might in the next 10 years, and this is one of the best tools to compare players between positions and home ballparks. 70 WAR puts Helton solidly in Hall of Fame territory, and he only needs about 3 WAR a year to get there. Likelihood: 8

So now that your eyes have glazed over reading all of my numbers and words, where does that leave us? There are a lot of Hall of Famers at each of those levels. Quantitatively they put Helton among the top 40-50 hitters all-time. However, he plays in Colorado and he plays first base, both of which (correctly) should make us expect great offensive numbers. Helton's excellent defense over his career should help some - he's won 3 Gold Gloves and probably deserved another couple more, and has been worth about 8 wins with his glove according to TotalZone. Will that be enough? I suspect that if Helton gets to a few of these levels, he'll have a tough time getting in, but will make it in 4-5 years. If he gets to all of them, I'd be willing to wager that he gets in on his first ballot. Another factor will be playoffs: Helton hadn't made it for his first 10 years, but has now been twice. If the Rockies get in another 2-3 times before he retires, and if they win the World Series once, that would also help Helton's case tremendously.

There's one final factor to look at here. According to the instructions that the voters are given, "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." Of the 6 criteria given, only 2 relate to how well a player played. Voters give much higher weight to a player's statistics - and perhaps they should - but the other parts shouldn't be ignored. Todd Helton has certainly exemplified all 4 of the "other" criteria as well as any baseball player in the last 20 years. I'm old fashioned in many of the ways I look at baseball, and I have a soft spot for players that are loyal to their team. Guys like George Brett, Cal Ripken, Edgar Martinez and Tony Gwynn not only matter more to their fans, but are also given a little boost of extra credit for their loyalty. I was going to go into more detail here, but this is getting really long as it is. Hang on, we're almost there.

So should Todd Helton go into the Hall of Fame when he retires? I think so, and I'm sure most of you agree. He's a world-class player and a world-class person from all accounts. He's meant more to this team than almost any player has meant to a franchise. He's the definition of the Rockies, and will probably be thought of as the foundation of the franchise if people are still playing this stick-and-ball game 100 years from now.

Poll
Should Todd Helton be inducted into the Hall of Fame when he retires?
Of course. This is a Rockies site. What did you expect?
79 votes
No. I hate Todd Helton. And puppies also.
3 votes

82 votes | Poll has closed

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

Comment 55 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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The ranks you list

are they the current ranks or the milestone ranks?

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

JFK

by jrockies on Mar 19, 2010 6:51 PM MDT reply actions  

They're the rank that he would be if he hit that milestone

And if no one else went ahead of him in that time.

Thanks Todd

by controlled_slide on Mar 19, 2010 6:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, we can't use that as the bar, even if it would logically seem so

Otherwise, we’d have dozens of non-HOF-worthy players in the HOF. One wrong shouldn’t lead to thirty wrongs

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 20, 2010 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

+1

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

One thing you're neglecting

is who the HOF voters will be and what they’ll focus on in 9+ years. I think things like walks, OBP, and WAR will be given more weight than they are currently – defense too.

Having said that, I’m still doubtful he gets in on first ballot unless he hits all of these (except home runs, which he won’t) and gets a World Series ring or two.

I also tend to ignore HOF discussion because I don’t care too much and it just becomes a lot of subjective back and forth, but this was actually a really good post. It was objective and I think docking him 10 games a year is pretty fair and makes this much more realistic. It also made me realize he has a very legitimate shot at the HOF – previously I assumed his numbers wouldn’t be good enough with the ‘Coors penalty’ and he’d be a 1st ballot ‘Hall of Very Gooder’. Hopefully the voters in 9 or so years will do the same as you, I think it makes his case much more convincing.

also
DOUBLE-BARRELED ‘NO’ OPTION IN THE POLL!!

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 19, 2010 8:58 PM MDT reply actions  

Great Article.

If he doesn’t get in to the Hall of Fame it will be a travesty.

by jordanmowbray on Mar 19, 2010 11:16 PM MDT reply actions  

I think of Helton in the same vein as Tony Gwynn

*Gwynn was a career .338 hitter and was a contact hitter. He didn’t hit a lot of homeruns.
*Defense is difficult to compare because of playing different positions, but Todd has played the best defense for a 1st baseman consistently over 10 years.
*Gwynn was a perennial all-star, won several Gold Gloves and Silver Slugger awards, and made it to two World Series which they lost. He played only for the Padres and did wonderful things in his community, winning Roberto Clemente award. He retired in 2001 and was elected in 2007 in his first year of eligibliity.

*Todd surpasses Tony in the power department, extra base hits. Even after the humidor he still hit for contact and extra bases, and rarely strikes out. I think the Coors Field effect is not as important as it used to be.
*Todd as been in one World Series, hopefully another this year.
*As far as a player’s importance to a team, I think his value is just as important to the Rockies as Tony Gwynn’s was to the Padres, maybe more so, especially in the early 2000’s and as a leader in the past 3 years. Also, Todd has one the Roberto Clemente award for the Rockies twice.

If you use Tony Gwynn as a comparison point, I think Todd Helton could very well be elected in the first or second year of eligibility.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 20, 2010 7:18 AM MDT reply actions  

Tony Gwynn is an excellent comp

You’ll note that WAR – which takes into account position, ballpark and defense – has Gwynn a little under 70 WAR. They’re very similar players in a lot of ways, though Helton has more power and better patience. It’s fair to call Todd Helton the Rockies’ Tony Gwynn.

Thanks Todd

by controlled_slide on Mar 20, 2010 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think it'll take a "Helton for Cooperstown" campaign from people OUTSIDE the Rox faithful

To give Todd enough momentum and exposure to have a chance at making it, if not in the first year, then in the second, or third, or even fourth.

by biondino on Mar 20, 2010 7:54 AM MDT reply actions  

Probably so

But if the Rockies’ faithful aren’t starting the campaign 4 years before he retires, does he even deserve consideration? In seriousness, I hope that writers look at numbers like these after Helton retires and come to the same conclusions that I have.

Thanks Todd

by controlled_slide on Mar 20, 2010 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't understand this idea.

To say he doesn’t deserve consideration because there is no campaign is odd to me. Its not up to the fans to vote him in, its up to the baseball writers. We, the faithful, could deluge the BBWAA for 5 years and spam their inboxes, to no avail. I do think writers like Peter Gammons et al, who have talked highly that Helton should be an HOFer carry far more weight than the faithful campaigning.

If Todd were a Red Sock, Yank, Dodger or Cardinal, its not even a discussion. Its done in an instant.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 20, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I was kidding

And really, I’m not trying to start a campaign. There had been some discussion about Helton’s Hall chances earlier this offseason, so I thought I’d put it all together and look at his current and possible future numbers. It’s more a tribute stemming from his contract signing than a campaign.

Thanks Todd

by controlled_slide on Mar 20, 2010 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ahh...I missed the joke...doh--sarchasm alert!

That’s why I was puzzled. And I think its great that you made this post.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 20, 2010 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

I want Todd in the HOF but...

 Expansion teams and small market teams often don’t get their first HOF qualified candidate in. The Rockies so far have developed two players with HOF potential; Todd and Holiday. Any body from my generation would have thought Andre Dawson deserved consideration over Tim Raines. And then you have the rent a stars that do so much where ever they go like a Rusty Staub who played on so many bad teams their numbers suffered.

I agree with all of your satistatical aguements if Todd can continue to produce at the levels he is now. Historical precedent says he won’t. He will need to produce at Ted Williams/ Stan Musial consistancy in his later years to win over the majority of BBWA eastern bias timers. I want him in, but realisticly his lack of glory stats and lack of big market recognition make him bordeline.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 20, 2010 10:48 AM MDT reply actions  

I don't know if Walker will make it either...

 HOF picks what team he’ll be. Dawson wants to go as a Cub and HOF wants him to be an Expo. Hof wants the Expos represented even tho’ they were a failed experiment. If Rodger Clemens ever gets voted in he’ll go as a Red Sox and not a Yankee as he wishes.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 20, 2010 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

by the same token then, wouldnt the hall want Colorado represented by walker if he were to get in?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 20, 2010 12:03 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

"who played on so many bad teams their numbers suffered"

The numbers that suffer because you play on a bad team are by their very definition not the numbers you should use when determining the worth of an individual player.

Oldfoagie, you may abhor everything SABR has done to the game, but don’t you think a great player on a bad team deserves just as much credit – which can be to a goof extent statistically demonstrated with newfangled sabr stats – as a great player whose team-dependent stats such as wins, runs or RBIs are that much higher because of with whom he played?

by biondino on Mar 20, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't abhor SABR.

 A lot of very good players over history got robbed of the opportunity to be better because of their surounding cast. How many leadof hitters did not get knocked in? How many solo home runs were hit for nothing? In the pitcher’s era, how many great perfomances were wasted by the pitcher’s team never scoring? It’s not fair; it just is. Role players, contact hitters and great gloves historically get the willy. Larry Walker’s numbers in Coors in the roids era? The BBWA will have a lot of sceptics justified or not. Rusty Staub? let’s see… who did he play for? Early ASTROS, early Expos, post "73 Mets…. Yup!

by Oldfoagie on Mar 20, 2010 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Blech....

I hope to God that Clemens never gets into the hall. The guy’s a complete scumbag. I’ve always despised him.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

350 wins he is in

Belief that success is inevitable is as likely to hold you back as a belief that it is impossible.

by TomCat009 on Mar 22, 2010 6:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

....most of them 'roid induced.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 22, 2010 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm sure that ALL of them are 'roid induced

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups

by LACK on Mar 24, 2010 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't ever think of Larry Walker as an Expo..

I think of him as a Rockie. I’m betting Expo fans think of him as an Expo. Wasn’t his career split fairly evenly between the two teams?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 20, 2010 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't have all the stsats in front of me anymore.

 The point is with exceptions like a Joe Morgan who went to the world series and won with another team; that HOF usually goes with the team that devolped the player.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 20, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is

kinda like the debate over whether RJ gets in as a Dback or as a Mariner.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Randy Johnson was an EXPO too...

 I think he’ll go as a Dback because of the WS.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 20, 2010 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

And a Yankee. And a Giant.

He won more games as a Mariner and played more seasons for Seattle, but his best years were definitely as a Dback. 4 straight Cy Youngs, WS co-MVP, etc. IIRC, he may have struck out more batters as a Dback than as a Mariner as well.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good point.

Always forget that one.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pitched his perfect game

while in purple, too, and SHOULD have won the CY in 2004.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Schilling will probably go as a Philly too.

 He’s most famous for getting Boston over the hump and the bloody sock; but he got there first with the Phillies and cemented himself in the baseball elite there too.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 20, 2010 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

IF

Schilling gets in, that is.

Yeah, I think he’d go in as a Philly. Although you know the sway the Red Sox org has with the HOF these days….

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Larry Walker was much more productive with the Rockies

He batted .334/.426/.618 with 258 HRs and 848 RBI in 10 years with the Rockies, plus he won 5 Gold Gloves
He batted .281/.357/.483 with 99 HRs and 384 RBI in 6 years with the Expos, plus he won 2 Gold Gloves

Thanks Todd

by controlled_slide on Mar 21, 2010 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's a lot of gold

either way

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

JFK

by jrockies on Mar 21, 2010 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Walker deserves it for being an amazing all around OF but the era might cost him

Belief that success is inevitable is as likely to hold you back as a belief that it is impossible.

by TomCat009 on Mar 22, 2010 6:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think

Helton gets screwed over by playing much of his career in pre-humidor Coors.

Which sucks, because I like the guy, and it’d be cool if he got into the hall.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 20, 2010 10:55 AM MDT reply actions  

Maybe in 9 years

the perception of Coors will have changed juuuuust enough to stop screwing every player with a legitimately impressive offensive whathaveyou…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 3:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is exactly why voters should start looking at metrics like WAR and OPS+ and wRC+

So they can get a good look at how good a player was context-neutral rather than just sticking their fingers in their ears and saying “LALALA COORS FIELD” when looking at dominant offensive Rockies players.

Thanks Todd

by controlled_slide on Mar 21, 2010 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree...

 Problem is with those who vote.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 21, 2010 5:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think the combination of BA and Doubles

plus the Face of the Franchise bump gets him in, he certainly deserves it if Boggs did(look at his doubles at Fenway splits)

Belief that success is inevitable is as likely to hold you back as a belief that it is impossible.

by TomCat009 on Mar 22, 2010 6:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ok, which two people voted no?

Unless if his knees get ripped apart, he’s going to the hall of fame.

"Left hand, right hand, it doesn't matter. I'm amphibious." - Charles Shackleford
""He’s a stiff." - The Legendary Doug Moe
"We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors." - Weldon Drew
"I really didn't want it, but now that I've won it, it's nice. It's an honor. It's nice to know people don't think you're a total idiot. ... It must have been a poor year for coaches." - Doug Moe...talking about winning 1987-88 Coach of the Year award.
"We're just tough, man" - Chauncey Billups

by LACK on Mar 22, 2010 5:52 PM MDT reply actions  

It was two East Coasters!!! ( just kidding)

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 22, 2010 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Probably people

who really really hate puppies o_O

Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.

by ShadowPenguin on Mar 22, 2010 6:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not get in?

I never even considered the option before, thanks for the eye-opener. Let’s all wish for at least five more seasons of strong production to make it a sure thing. And while we’re wishing, how about a ring or two along the way…..

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick

by azdenfan on Mar 23, 2010 9:32 AM MDT reply actions  

Helton

is one of those players who’s been very good for a very long time. Good enough? Only time will tell.

I keep trying to reset my password to "penis", but it keeps telling me "too short".

by DbacksSkins on Mar 25, 2010 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

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Poison-the-well-the-tropic-rot_small Bryan Kilpatrick

Avatar2_small Andrew T. Fisher

Wittgenstein_small Greg Stanwood

Special Assistants to the GM

Rockies_lost_americana_small holly96