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Sunday Rockpile: Why Brad Hawpe is a better fit for the Rockies than you may think, Part 1

So today, I'm very busy with real life stuff and sort of running desperately late, so no links other than to Troy Renck's article at the DP, talking about how the Rockies are navigating past the obstacles presented this Spring. Instead, I'll just put up a post I've been working on regarding Brad Hawpe, that's still in a nascent stage, so I'll just call it part one.

I've been kind of troubled by my affinity for Brad Hawpe this winter, and no, Mrs. Hawpe, it's not that kind of affinity. Anyway, why I'm troubled is because I really don't believe he's as bad for the team as some very intelligent people make him out to be, and whenever that sort of disconnect takes place, it causes me to question my own stance. Today, I'm going to try and reconcile why I feel that some of Hawpe's value to the Rockies may be missed (note: in part two, I'll try and figure out how to actually put it in numbers, rather than theory). Let's first review the two basic facts that we know about Brad Hawpe:

  1. He is a liability defensively, likely a very large one relative to replacement level.
  2. He is a credit on offense, again a pretty large gap between him and your standard bench (not Seth Smith) level.

The sum total of these two facts lead sabrmetricians to the conclusion that on a completely average team, Brad Hawpe is a slightly below average player. No, actually that's not true, it seems to lead most of them to the conclusion that on any team, Brad Hawpe is a below average player. And that highlighted word is important, because I believe this is where people are generally missing something important. 

Let me show this with a geometric proof, so you can see where my logic's coming from:

 

  • The object of baseball consists of two distinct phases, scoring as many runs as possible while on offense, and preventing as many runs as possible on defense.
  • There are hierarchies of player importance in both run scoring and run prevention. For run scoring, the top and heart of the lineup are most important as they get the most plate appearances and also the most plate appearances with high percentage scoring chances. In run prevention, the pitcher carries by far the most importance.
  • Right field, because of the relative scarcity of play opportunities, is close to the bottom of the defensive hierarchy, but (depending on the individual player) usually near the top of the offensive side of the equation.

 

Is everybody with me so far? This is where it will get a little more tricky:

Star-divide

 

Picture an imaginary scenario where a pitcher has a 27 strikeout perfect game. He (with probably a little credit to the catcher, but I'm not going to get into that here) has taken complete responsibility for his team's run prevention for that game. There is zero need for the other seven fielders. The same would be true on the opposite end for a pitcher who came in and gave up six straight upper deck home runs without recording an out before being lifted. Six runs score and he has infinite ERA for the appearance, but again, no need for fielders, good or bad, to achieve this result. Still on that bad side of the spectrum but a little more winnable would be a pitcher (Charlie Brown?) who gives up 12 straight line drives to the outfield before being lifted. Depending on the effectiveness and luck in placement of your outfielders, your team might scrap together a few outs from that performance.

Therefore, the basic gist of a corresponding law would be:

 

  • As pitchers decrease in effectiveness, defensive performance from the other eight members of the team becomes more important.

of course, if this is true, then the inverse would also have to be true:

  • As pitchers increase in effectiveness, defensive performance from the other eight members of the team becomes less important.

This isn't new ground, it's stuff that DIPS derived pitcher evaluations (such as FIP or xERA) use for hurlers, but the properties don't seem to be often carried over to a team's fielders. What I'm saying is that a player like Brad Hawpe, who has a high offensive value but is low on the defensive scale, would have far greater value on the Rockies (a team with a very low team FIP) than he would on the Brewers. In effect, because his defensive liability is going to be limited by the effectiveness of Rockies pitching, his offensive capability becomes that much more significant. In fact, the Rockies, as MLB's most effective pitching team in 2009 by overall win value, could have been the perfect NL team for a Brad Hawpe.

How this works in a real game setting is simple, the hits that Brad Hawpe allows through his poor defense are far less likely to drive in runs or come around to score because Rockies pitchers will allow fewer preceding or subsequent baserunners than other teams. Ideally, of course, you would want a player that's both an offensive and defensive threat, like that punk Justin Upton, but given a scarcity of supply of true two-way players, teams have to make decisions based on relative value to their clubs and the relative value of an offense first player like Hawpe will be much higher compared to other players of similar cumulative value for a pitching strong team like the Rockies, while the relative value of a defensive specialist would be much higher for a team with a weak pitching staff. 

Here, let me illustrate with the real world comparison of two NL West right fielders in 2009, the Giants Randy Winn and the Rockies Hawpe, with their value in runs over replacement according to FanGraphs:

  • Randy Winn: -13.4 batting, +16.5 fielding; 1.7 WAR
  • Brad Hawpe: +21.5 batting, -21.3 fielding; 1.3 WAR

According to FanGraphs' WAR, both of these high quality pitching teams would have been better off with Winn. What I'm suggesting is that because of their pitching staffs, both clubs would be better off with Brad Hawpe. In effect, Winn doesn't save as many runs as is suggested by his UZR because Tim Lincecum and company wouldn't allow them to score anyway, and Brad Hawpe doesn't allow as many runs as suggested because Ubaldo Jimenez and friends have his back. As that defensive gap between the two players narrows, the offensive gap, which will remain static, becomes more critical. Anecdotally, this example bears out at the team level given the standings last season. The Giants had a strong defense but weak offense to go along with their strong pitching but weren't able to overcome the Rockies for the wild card, despite the Rockies considerably weaker defensive squad.  

The same could be applied to Manny Ramirez with the Dodgers last couple of seasons, he is likely quite a bit more valuable to them than indicated by a neutral WAR, and it's why this article that says the Nationals are silly for wanting to extend Adam Dunn is true (the Nationals have a terrible pitching staff, defense is more important) but why some Royals fans making a fuss over possibly acquiring Hawpe might not have their heads on straight given that pitching is a strength and offense a notable weakness for their club.

This theory would suggest that boy genius Theo Epstein might not have been getting the biggest bang for his buck in targeting defensive specialists like Mike Cameron this past winter (the Red Sox had the second most valuable pitchers in the majors last year), and why Omar Minaya's still an idiot (the Mets aren't a very good pitching team on the whole) for acquiring Jason Bay. Both teams would be getting more relative value from the other player.

This of course doesn't get into the presence of one Seth Smith, yet, which is a different can of worms altogether. Look for more of that in part two.

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by Russ Oates on Mar 21, 2010 9:03 AM MDT reply actions  

And with Joe Nathan's surgery

SUNY Stony Brook mourns…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

That hurts the Twins

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

JFK

by jrockies on Mar 21, 2010 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

Too bad for my fantasy team

I had an amazing closer duo of Nathan and Broxton going into the season. Now I’m down to Broxton only.

by avsfan4ever33 on Mar 21, 2010 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

and another reason I don't play fantasy sports

I would be mad at a player for getting hurt…

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

I suppose you can also say

that with our low FIP as well as our relatively high groundball rates (at least last season), Hawpe’s defense shortcomings are minimized even more…

Still think he should have been traded but now I wonder about how a midseason trade would impact the team’s chemistry…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 9:25 AM MDT reply actions  

I think Hawpe must have some intangibles that we don't know about

Tracy doesn’t seem to mind benching anyone and he benched him during the playoffs. But he’s also more or less declared him as the unquestioned starter in RF. So I think there must be something more he brings to the table that Tracy and maybe even Tulo and Helton want to keep around. I know that other players really shouldn’t have any say about who stays, but I think in reality your core team leaders may have some input or opinion.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is a good point

and, in my opinion, a much bigger part of the game than is often given credit, because (a) we generally don’t have that information, and (b) it can’t be measured objectively anyway. And it may not matter in terms of actual performance, but it certainly matters in terms of decision making and chemistry.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Honestly, I'm not sure if Hawpe brings a whole lot to the table that others don't

but I do worry about things like team and clubhouse chemistry and morale and stuff.

Regardless of Hawpe’s abilities, he’s a well-liked and valued member of the organization – him being traded midseason may have some sort of impact that trading him during the offseason wouldn’t have had….

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 8:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

So RG. are you of the mind that Hawpe should stay or be traded?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 9:26 AM MDT reply actions  

Interesting angle.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 9:44 AM MDT reply actions  

This is a good argument.

I also think that perhaps, given the known shortcomings of UZR, using single season data to adjust WAR could undervalue his defense. But I also think that Seth Smith does need to come into the conversation. I would be curious to see a complete analysis, including salaries and opportunity costs. But I am willing to consider that the Rockies are better off with Hawpe than without.

by RoxnSox09 on Mar 21, 2010 10:02 AM MDT reply actions  

Plus, hes got a cannon.

certainly not as good as range, but a good arm that can gun aggressive baserunners down can be an asset. I can remember a half dozen clutch outfield assists by Hawpe. That, plus first-half 2009 Hawpe, and he starts in MY right field.

Counting Colorado Tacos since 2006!

by fantasyfencing on Mar 21, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thank you. I mention that in the Hawpe

debates, but am told that no one runs on him any more, so the errors are more deadly. I propose no one runs on him because the chance is very high that he will nail them and they don’t even try.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's exactly right...

… but we’re all aware of that. People aren’t trying to say no one runs on Hawpe any more for some other mysterious reason. That doesn’t change the fact that as a result of the growing awareness of that arm, it has became a less and less significant factor in Hawpe’s game. It has a positive effect in that sometimes runners may not advance a base out of respect for the arm, but that is rather difficult to measure.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree

fear of his arm is a major factor weighing in favor of his impact on the game. If it is indeed true that teams don’t challenge him anymore (and I don’t know if that is true or just an assumption made for purposes of arguemnt), that means he’s keeping runners from advancing when they otherwise might, an inarguably invaluable attribute.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

I did mention that in the last sentence of my post.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right

and sorry for not crediting you for that, but you seem to be suggesting that it might not be a legitimate value. To me, either people are not running on his arm out of respect (and therefore no doubt legitimate value) or people are not affected by his arm at all.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

I didn't say it wasn't a legitimate value.

In fact, I clearly said it was a positive one. I only said that the actual tangible contribution this has on the game is difficult to measure.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well

here is what I was disputing:

“That doesn’t change the fact that as a result of the growing awareness of that arm, it has became a less and less significant factor in Hawpe’s game. "

My position is simply that it is still a significant factor, just in a different way, whether or not measurable (and if the assumption is true, it really would be measurable by reviewing actual plays).

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ah, I see.

Then we do disagree. I believe throwing out runners is more significant than runners choosing to hold. But just to be clear, I’m most certainly not arguing that the power of Hawpe’s arm outside of actually throwing runners out is not a positive contribution. I just don’t think it’s quite as important, as it’s certainly not applicable in every situation (some runners run and succeed on him regardless).

Remember, here, I am a big fan of Hawpe’s.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure you can entirely separate

throwing out runners from runners choosing to hold, especially if there is a known threat to stop said runner from advancing. I would think one would make the decision to hold or the 1st base or 3rd base coach makes that decision.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

It does happen.

We just can’t tell how often. The point I’m making is that while Hawpe’s assists or attempted assists can be measured, both in number and effect on the game, whereas the amount of runs saved by players stopping could be 30 or it could be 3.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Every runner

that holds up is a potential run saved.

No OF throws out every advancing runner. Without digging for a stat to quote, lets say that a good OF throws out 50% of the advancing runners.
Every runner that doesn’t run, has given the SP/RP a chance to get out of the inning without them scoring. That cold add up to maybe 1 Run every other game or so, due to a RF’s chances for an advance to the plate.

I like the odds for the team to get out of the inning without a score.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Mar 21, 2010 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess I'm not sure why this isn't considered a tangible contribution.

If a guy is rounding 1st on a possible double, do you think he will decide to put on the brakes with Brad Hawpe ready to throw at 2nd or if Adam Dunn is ready to throw at 2nd?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is the second time in as many week's you've misinterpreted me, despite a specific disclaimer so as to prevent myself from being misunderstood.

(The other being my opinion on the EY2 commercial). I guess I just fail at that. :p

Anyway, to try and clarify again:

I didn’t say that it ISN"T a tangible effect. What I said is that it is an UNCLEAR tandible effect. In other words, the effect is there, but how big of a factor it plays in the end result is almost impossible to measure, because:

1. We don’t know what a player is thinking when they choose to take or hold a base.
2. We don’t know what would happen differently if they chose to do something different were Hawpe’s arm not acknowledged. Would they have scored? Would they have been thrown out? Etc.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry for misinterpreting your tangibility(?) :)

I still disagree that its completely unclear.

I think if you have a known threat to nail you at a base, and because you made a decision to try and beat the throw from said known threat…you are still out. And an out can be measured.

If said runner makes the decision to hold you have no out. The defense has another opportunity to get you out via pick-off, double play, throw out at 2nd, 3rd or home, strike out etc. (and I recognize that the runner could then advance on a steal, or a hit).

/ducks at the incoming stats deluge

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

No incoming stats deluge from me.

I’m not knowledgeable enough to do that. I can, however, still argue that…

“I think if you have a known threat to nail you at a base, and because you made a decision to try and beat the throw from said known threat…you are still out.”

… is not true. We can’t resign every runner that would try to beat Hawpe’s arm as an out. He’s not THAT good at throwing people out (nobody is).

I simply don’t see any way to measure the effect without asking every signle runner who ran or did not run when Hawpe obtained a fielded baseball (or every base coach in this situation) if it was a factor, and then using our best guesswork (which is unreliable to begin with) to assess what would have happened had the decision been different. To me, this analysis is simply unclear in all cases. Logical observation dictates that the awareness of Hawpe’s arm threat produces an effect, but the significance is less so than an actual assist attempt.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think you hit on it.

Let’s do a poll and ask the players:)

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

You may

enjoy reading this. It’s old. Not totally comprehensive. But takes a stab at it. Fangraphs has a component of UZR that is called ARM or Outfield Arm Runs. I couldn’t find an explanation of the components, but I think it is derivitive of Walsh’s “Holds” and “Kills” weighted for their respective expected run values for each event. Anyway it’s worth a read.

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Mar 21, 2010 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

My opinion on Hawpe, complete with the analysis you asked for (written in November)

Link

I should just keep that link somewhere easy to find, because I find myself referring to it alot.

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by Jeff Aberle on Mar 21, 2010 7:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks RG for a different perspective.

Being that I"m the resident Hawpe-R? around here, I appreciate this analysis. You may end up with a conclusion that you think he should be traded, but at least its a completely different perspective and helps me to see that I’m not totally crazy for believing that he is not as much of a liability as others think, and is actually of benefit to the team.

The Seth Smith side of the discussion will be interesting. My whole thing with Smith is that in the limited starts he’s had, ( and I’m sure someone will let me know if I"m wrong or what the exact numbers are..) he didn’t really prove himself to have earned a spot starting over Hawpe in the long term.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 10:09 AM MDT reply actions  

SABER Geek Alert

it never ceases to amaze me the math used in baseball to develop arguments for or against guys. The bottom line on Hawpe from an evaluators point of few = plus arm, plus bat, below average speed, susceptible to off speed and heat down and away. His major issues is he leads too much with his hands and pulls off the outside pitches. Leading with your hands destroys plate coverage. His hand placement was much better in 2008 and early 2009. His All Star performance led him to try to muscle up and pull too much in the second half and his average plummeted. When he stay technique focuses he does well. He would be wise to close his stance slightly and place his hands higher in the load to prevent too much leading.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Mar 21, 2010 10:49 AM MDT reply actions  

So do you think he stays a Rockie this season and a starter?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, he's a starter for now.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

nice analysis

I agree. I too noticed his hands had dropped between the first and second half of last season. I think leaving the stance slightly open the way it was won’t hurt because it forces him to close up and thus he can reach the outside part of the plate (assuming he actually does close unlike the second half of last year).

There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson

JFK

by jrockies on Mar 21, 2010 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

But what do the evaluators say about that speed in terms of his ability to correct for misread fly balls?

I’m not eschewing your evaluation, it sounds pretty spot on from everything I’ve seen and heard. But what do the evaluators say about his ability to read fly balls, his ability to make smart routes on balls, etc?

Take a look at Jacoby Ellsbury and Andruw Jones. Andruw Jones’ speed declined in the 2000s, yet his CF fielding was still considered to be top notch, because he was (is?) a smart fielder, makes good reads, takes good routes, and makes outs. Ellsbury, on the other hand, is one of the fastest guys in the majors, yet he makes terrible reads on balls, takes bad routes, but has such enormous speed, he’s able to make up for a lot of the plays he muffs (as far as the initial read goes).

My point is just to ask how Hawpe’s range is, how good of a reader of ball-off-bat he is, etc? I can’t imagine that that particular criteria is left out of scouting evaluations.

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by Andrew Martin on Mar 21, 2010 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nelson and Rogers optioned to the minors.

Not sure which teams they’re assigned to yet.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:08 AM MDT reply actions  

This is Rogers' final option year. Nelson still has one more after this one.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Both were optioned to AAA Colorado Springs.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

good looks

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Very interesting article RG

The “bad defense overrated” angle is very interesting, because that is my main issue with him and its good to get the perspective that its not as bad as it seems (though, to me, may never get over the 8th inning of Game 3 when he couldn’t get to those two balls).

I was among those who thought a good trade might have been wise, but I’m not among those agonizing over the fact that he’s still around and likely to draw most of the RF starts. I trust Tracy to pull the plug if he struggles (just as he did last year), but I also have legitimate, and possibly not unfounded, hope that he can re-create the magic of the first half. I guess we’ll see.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 11:13 AM MDT reply actions  

Well we could also go after CarGo for not making the play in Game 4...

but we don’t, and I don’t know why. The plays in muffed in Game 1 with the godawful winds could have been muffed by anyone on that day.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Because that's cherry-picking and every MLB player makes an error at some point?

Not one person says “Hawpe is a bad defensive player because of this play.” It’s a compilation of years worth of play and a half dozen different defensive metrics.

Sure, the reaction may be louder if Hawpe makes an error, but that’s natural. If Clint Barmes strikes out on a low and away slider with RISP, it’s quite different than Helton striking out.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 21, 2010 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

"If Clint Barmes strikes out on a low and away slider with RISP, it’s quite different than Helton striking out."

I’m not sure I agree. In the context of the game, it’s the same. I guess it’s different based on the biases people have about the players based upon patterns in their gameplay, but for me, Helton failing in this situation is the same as Barmes, simply in terms of the effect it has on the game..

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Sure it has the same effect

But we are more liable to be frustrated with Barmes specifically for failing in a common way, whereas a strikeout by Helton would lead to speculation of a fluke or good performance by the pitcher. It’s natural human bias.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 21, 2010 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

But I wouldn't say there's an excuse for that.

That’s one of the reasons that I get so upset at the obvious double standards there are for certain players, such as Barmes. It’s certainly fair and objective to say that Barmes is more likely to strike out in that (or any) situation, but the end result (for me, at least) produces the same amount of disappointment.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think maybe the disappointment for the specific game situation

is the same, but someone might feel more disappointment in Barmes since he’s not correcting a known mistake, whereas Helton’s could be, as ATF says, a fluke or a particularly good pitch. On the other hand, someone else might feel more disappointment in Helton for making an unusual mistake, whereas Barmes’s could have been anticipated.

I think both options could be legitimate feelings based on differing expectations/abilities of the players in question.

by holly96 on Mar 21, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with your interpretation of the feeling of heightened disappointment...

… but disagree that it is a legitimate reaction. Legitimate maybe in the sense that it seems natural, but illegitimate in the sense that it is a double standard.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think it needs to be a double standard in the negative sense

in every situation. Would people be equally upset, say, at a pitcher failing to drive a runner in from 2nd as they would be from Helton? In this case it wouldn’t make any sense to hold the pitcher to the same standard.

by holly96 on Mar 21, 2010 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe in the context of a baseball game, all players are not equal in terms of patterns of gameplay...

… but are equal in terms of assigned tasks and results. A double standard about the result is a problem for me.

As I expressed below:

Double standard that Barmes has more offensive issues than Smith. I’m okay, because it’s true. It’s visible in an analysis in their performance.

Double standard that Barmes failing in an important situation deserves more heat than Smith failing. I’m not okay, because that determination is unfairly projected from a a belief system unrelated to the baseball game (personal opinions of a player).

In your situation, I am perfectly accepting in understanding that it is far tougher for a pitcher to drive in the run than it is Helton. But no, that doesn’t change the fact that in either case, I am equally upset that we did not acquire a run.

The same goes for the opposite. A pitcher SUCCEEDING in driving in that run has a lot more amusing novelty than does Helton doing so. But simply from a results position, I am equally pleased with bother performances.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think we're talking about two types of disappointment.

Disappointment that run did not score would be equal in both cases. But disappointment in a player himself is, to me, different. I would not be disappointed in a pitcher in my situation. I would, however, be disappointed to some degree in another player. That may be a double standard, but I don’t believe it’s an inappropriate one. A double standard is not inherently bad.

by holly96 on Mar 21, 2010 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I find double standards to be inherently bad when they are not the result of a specific inequality that itself is inherent to the situation.

So in essence, I can agree that a pitcher who is less talented offensively than Todd Helton warrants a different likely outcome, but producing a double standard based off the result (which people absolutely do with players) is, to me, a faulty reaction.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Look, we have a mathematically definable expectation when Helton's at the plate

And one when Barmes – or the pitcher – is at the plate. Helton’s is higher than Barmes is higher than the pitcher, so the opportunity cost of Helton striking out is higher than that of Barmes or the pitcher striking out.

So we should, by that reasoning, be most disappointed when Todd fails to get on base, but the disappointment we’ve been describing is a very diffferent type, whereby we believe that there is a fundamental level of skill expected from these players and Barmes fails to reach that level more than Todd, so we’re dissppointed more often and the disappointment becomes cumulative.

by biondino on Mar 21, 2010 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's an interesting point.

I thought about that for a minute earlier, but foolishly shrugged it off. It does raise questions about why the player who is supposedly MORE likely to fail gets more heat for failing, and fewer props for succeeding. I think that’s a big part of why those responses like “Barmes walked! We’re never going to see that again.” bother me so much,

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Those responses bug me too.

Especially since they’re seldom as rare as the reactions make them out to be.

by holly96 on Mar 21, 2010 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Some form of social capital

We know Helton will be good for it later on down the line, with Barmes we can’t be so sure…

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by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not to say that it's rational though

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 8:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess I just don't see why you expect

equal reactions when there are legitimate unequal expectations.

For what it’s worth, I completely agree that game threads often feature unfair double standards, and often legitimate reactions go way overboard. But I just can’t agree that it’s unfair to be more disappointed in a player for whom expectations are legitimately greater.

by holly96 on Mar 21, 2010 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

oh I'll say "Goddammit Smith" as readily as I'll say "Goddammit Barmes"

the difference is, when Helton K’s, I’ll also say “Goddammit Helton” but follow it with “You’re better than that”

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by Andrew Martin on Mar 21, 2010 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think

ATF is trying to say that the Barmes example is an easier knee-jerk style “reaction” of disappointment, because its a persistent mistake that he makes, whereas Todd has earned more respect because he doesn’t have such obvious holes in his game and therefore your knee-jerk reaction wouldn’t be as severe or as targeted. In short, better players get more benefit of the doubt, and therefore it (maybe) is not a “double standard.”

I agree with you that the K is equally disappointing either way—Tulo’s K to end the LDS was not made any easier to take because it wasn’t Barmes.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes, I agree that's what ATF is saying.

I’m not saying that the knee-jerk style reaction of disappointment doesn’t exist. Quite the opposite. I’m saying it does exist, and it bothers me.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

if that’s your position, though I imagine game threads might be brutal for you with all the conditioned responses re Barmes, etc. At least we won’t see the “Failkins” (though I did think Ground Outkins was clever and funny) and the Yorvit stuff this year… It will be interesting to see who joins Barmes and Hawpe as the insta-react whipping boys this season since most (all?) of the remaining regulars are favorites around here (other than some of the bullpen guys).

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm sure you MUST have seen me rant in Game Threads about it.

I don’t have a problem with nicknames. It’s not necessarily “Failkins” that bothered me, for example. What bothers me is more like this example:

Barmes strikes out embarrassingly with the bases loaded.
Crowd’s knee-jerk reaction: Barmes is good for nothing. He does this all the time. He sucks.
My reaction: Barmes failed, and I am disappointed.

Smith strikes out embarrassingly with the bases loaded.
Crowd’s reaction: Smith’ll do better next time. It’s okay.
My reaction: Smith failed, and I am disappointed.

Now believe me, I’m aware of the obvious difference: Barmes is more likely to do this. Therefore, I’m not trying to say that Smith should somehow be regarded as equally bad in this kind of situation simply from a perspective of player skill. That would be faulty analysis. I am speaking only of the reaction of disappointment, which is definitely a double standard.

Expressing disappointment in Barmes’ frequent failing is one thing. I do it too. Thing is, I’ll also defend Barmes when somebody tries to tell me that it’s much worse when he strikes out than it is when Smith does.

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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 21, 2010 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess I've missed your rants on the subject

but I don’t make every game thread, particularly night games. In any event, while I’m not exactly on board with your position I see where you’re coming from and I can respect that.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not to mention

years of sitting in that ballpark and watching him butcher many a play in that RF corner.

Hating Cubs fans since 1908

by Hizilla on Mar 21, 2010 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I was referring to Game 3

of the World Series, after we’d rallied and when Fuentes came in and gave up two bloops down the RF line that Hawpe did not get to.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know.

I was referring to Game 1 in the NLDS this year, when Hawpe was getting hammered for his misplays. I was just pointing out that CarGo could have been criticized for misplaying in that game as well.

I think we are the same side of the coin where Hawpe is concerned.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

True

I do think Hawpe’s defense is generally not very good, but I agree with you that he is probably picked on more than appropriate as part of the context of the Smith argument, and maybe that is where RG is going with this post and the upcoming one. In any event, I think we can all agree that Hawpe needs to improve in the field.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Indeed. Just imagine

if Hawpe comes out with better defense this year and continues to hit as he normally does, what will happen to the debate then?

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

We'll all love Hawpe and forget about Smith. Well, almost.

But at his age, it’s pretty hard to imagine a player improving his range that dramatically.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 21, 2010 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

That'd be great SDCat

BUT – and this is the alpah and omega of our arguments – the evidence, which has mounted quite a lot in Hawpe’s case, is that this is very unlikely. Not imposssible, but with what we know at the moment, we HAVE to take his poor defence into account when considering how the Rox move forward.

Equally, I could take exactly what you’ve said and reverses it – SDCat, just imagine if Hawpe comes out with a worse offence this year and continues to defend like he usually does – what will happen to your opinion then?

by biondino on Mar 21, 2010 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

My opinion of Hawpe is pretty steady

I’ve never claimed he had didn’t have less than great defense,(with the cannon arm). I’ve said here that if he falls off dramatically, he’ll most likely lose his starting spot and I wouldn’t argue it, but would be sad to see it happen.

Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
"I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-Chris Paul

PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?

by SDcat09 on Mar 21, 2010 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

My problem with Hawpe is..

That he should be playing the role of Giambino 2.0, where he’s filling in as a lefty off the bench at RF and to give Helton a break. In no way should he be starting. He’s robbing time from the younger players; defensively Spilly has a much better arm with more assists, Fowler’s time is being reduced because Cargo can’t get extended time in RF and ends up in Cf. I’m going to avoid Seth’s argument because my FP last year went into enough detail on that issue. Realistically though Brad is showing slower bat speed and he’s on the wrong side of the parabola right now.

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by Charlie77 on Mar 21, 2010 2:09 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm not sure he's stealing time

from Dex or CarGo, those guys I expect will get their full share. He’s taking Spilborgs and Smith’s time, and that’s obviously the debate. I have no problem with Spilborgs on the bench, I love the guy but he may be best suited for a career 4th guy. As for Smith, well, there’s the rub. Unlike a lot of people here seemingly believe, I don’t think Tracy has a suicide pact with any players and if he intends to give Hawpe full starting time, he is doing so because he believes that it makes the team better. We’ll see if that assumption is true; if its accurate; and if not, what he does about it. But it seems silly to me for so many to lose sleep about it now. Hawpe is in a no-win situation here, he’s going to have to OPS at Pujols levels and play gold glove defense from Opening Day in order to avoid harsh criticism.

by Teekalong on Mar 21, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I like the way you put that, Suicide Pact

Hawpe’s 1st half bat is so strong, that even with the DEFENSE STATZ, he’s worth starting

the problem is that his 2nd half bat gets so pedestrian that basically he’s a null player, he neutralizes his own contributions with his fielding, so basically his value all comes in the 1st half.

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by Andrew Martin on Mar 21, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Spilly and Seth Smith played 1,155 innings in LF and CF last year..

which translates into 128.1 games. Add Brad Hawpe’s 141 games played in RF and that equates to 55% of the playing time in the outfield. It only leaves 217 games to split between CarGo and Dex.

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by Charlie77 on Mar 21, 2010 10:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Spilly had 2 more assists in 62 fewer chances last year.

..his arm is more accurate than Hawpe’s.

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by Charlie77 on Mar 21, 2010 10:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

if Hawpe does better, I'll probably write an article about it praising him for it

But saying “if only Hawpe could field better, he’d be a monster” is like saying “If Ichiro walked more, he’d be like super elite”. We can’t just say “well if [player] [improved in a deficient area]”, because with guys Hawpe’s age, they’re more or less known quantities.

I hammer on Hawpe not because I think he’s lazing on defense or whatever, you know this. I don’t even intend to make look like I’m hammering on him. It’s just saying “these are the clear deficiencies that are inherent to Bradley Bonte Hawpe” and evaluating based on that.

I’m not saying that you’re wrong or whatever for bringing up the what-ifs, but simply that when you do, the opposition isn’t hating Hawpe, they’re saying that you pretty much can’t change reality.

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by Andrew Martin on Mar 21, 2010 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

You know my basic views...

 On Hawpe’s defense I will say he gets bad jumps most especially in day games. In factoring ball park effects; we forget that right field is the sun field and in Coors especially so. I would like to see his day / night batting splits to see if that is a major factor for him. I agree with the batting analysis above but counter with the fact his bat speed did decline in the second half caused him to lower his hands to cheat .

 As for footwork; he moves like a first baseman. He makes good short corrective steps when he is sure of where he is. He looks stumblefooted when he can’t find the ball or he is unsure of his proximity to obstacles as all of us are. Could he or should he have improved over the years is mute; he didn’t.

 I think Brad is an intregal part of the personality of the team. What ever those intangibles are that DOD and Tracy see in him; they see the team as a whole as less without him. For all the bad we see; he did carry the team in the first half, and the Rox would have been even further in the hole without him last year.

As to the other discussion on disappointment; let’s not forget to tip our cap to the other guy for executing what he needed to do. We all say it anknow it; baseball is a game of failure.

by Oldfoagie on Mar 21, 2010 4:49 PM MDT reply actions  

This is an interesting viewpoint, RG, one that has some merit.

However, your article doesn’t really address the distinct possibility that all three of Smith/Dex/Cargo could also be better offensively this year as well (particularly Smith). That’s probably my biggest beef with the whole thing—that Smith has shown himself when given the opportunity to be a hitter with rate and value stats on par with Hawpe’s best. In my opinion, Smith needs to get that opportunity to produce at a full-time level, because the potential reward is well worth the risk.

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by Jeff Aberle on Mar 21, 2010 8:04 PM MDT reply actions  

One thing that I think needs to be mentioned more that doesn't

is that while there are flaws in defensive metrics, they’re not the result of throwing spaghetti at the wall, seeing what sticks and labeling it a defensive metric, having said that, the one defensive metric (UZR) that I know of that’s publicly available (other than fielding percent I guess) doesn’t just rate Hawpe as bad or even very bad – he literally comes out as the worst outfielder in baseball over the previous 3 seasons (which just so happens is the theoretical amount of sample one would want for this particular defensive metric).

I believe Hawpe is projected to be -33 runs below average defensively this season. In theory, if we were to get equal offensive contribution from Seth Smith and if he were to provide +7 runs above average defense, the Rockies would win another 4 games in 2010. That’s crazy. Also, how often do teams get a chance to theoretically improve by 4 wins defensively, not lose much if anything offensively, retain the same handedness (lefty), and do it all for what, one-seventh the salary?

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by Resolution on Mar 21, 2010 8:38 PM MDT reply actions  

The link about Hawpe is here (ESPN's Insider TMI Blog):

Link

The projected -33 UZR/150 is 17 runs worse than the next worst OF (Manny). He’s not only the worst OF in MLB, he’s the worst by an absurdly wide margin.

Even with the importance of that fact supposedly diminished on a pitching-heavy team that figure is sure tough to ignore, isn’t it?

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by Jeff Aberle on Mar 21, 2010 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

bingo

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 22, 2010 6:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oh and Smith will make about 1/15th the salary of Hawpe.

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by Jeff Aberle on Mar 21, 2010 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Again, what I'm bringing up is something you're not actually addressing.

I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall as you guys are going o

The runs UZR claims Hawpe costs the team will actually be higher and I’m actually going to suggest that if one goes back through his defensive gamelogs over the last three seasons, considerably higher, than what he actually does wind up costing the team. First because Rockies pitchers are going to be above average from preventing runs from scoring and second, because I believe that UZR as a formula doesn’t work well in extreme hitting environments (at either end of the scale, I think PETCO fielders get misjudged as well).

Also, I did say this was just the start to the post and I would deal with Seth Smith next time (maybe I’ll skip it though if I feel that people don’t actually pay attention) but you guys are using a very small sample to deem him a defensive savior. I really don’t know if I buy that he’s as much a positive in the OF. I have him as neutral for now because there’s really no evidence that he’s a bad fielder, either, but I think a larger sample needs to be shown before I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt as a positive. Judging him now is as bad as judging a player on Spring stats.

I guess the short answer is that I find the four game swing claim as bogus. I would guess that the defensive gap between Smith and Hawpe over the course of a season with the Rockies pitching is less than 20 runs and could be as little as 10.

by Rox Girl on Mar 22, 2010 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

yea Smith's total zone's kind of suck huh

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 23, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

I didn't mean to imply

that I think UZR is underestimating Hawpe’s crappiness – agree with you, on a decent strikeout team with a great groundball staff, there’s more noise in Hawpe’s data so any blunder he makes is overestimated (is this what you meant?) . But I’m merely saying even with all the noise and the over-estimation, there’s still the fact that he’s not merely bad but appears to be the worst which limits his ceiling considerably.

As for UZR not handling Coors well, I have no response for that other than to trust UZR to some degree and say maybe he’s not the worst, just really crappy. Who knows, perhaps the Rockies have an internal metric that handles Coors better – it would certainly be in their best interest to look into that as they have one of the more unique parks around.

Lastly, yea sorry for bringing up Smith a bit prematurely, I just think a 4 win improvement is too sexy, regardless of how unrealistic it is…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 23, 2010 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Also, sorry RG

I think I might have agreed with you about UZR’s faultiness in this situation but by a slightly different path…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 23, 2010 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Also one more thing

I don’t like to assume that our pitching will always be above average or tops in the league, especially if someone gets injured and we have to rely on a crappier pitcher or someone takes a step back, well then the problem is compounded by inferior pitching playing up to inferior defense.

But I see what you’re saying with regard to “poor defense will be overestimated with a good pitching staff”

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Mar 23, 2010 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe I'm missing subtext here

but Hawpe’s miserable UZR or whatever metric we’re using happened alongside good pitching.

Not bad UZR would make that good pitching appear to be better pitching. Not by FIP standards, of course, but by actual run prevention. Even though FIP et al says that DLR pitched better than his ERA. The problem is that FIP et al is designed to tell us how a pitcher did regardless of defense. His ERA may have been lower had there not been several massively negative UZRs playing behind him, and by extension, less runs would have been scored against us.

FIP et al (I’m using that one a lot) is designed to rate a pitcher, while ERA is essentially a measure of the entire team’s run prevention efforts when a particular pitcher is on the mound. So while the Rockies sported a team ERA of 4.22, an absolutely average defender in RF would have prevented 21 more runs, thereby lowering the team ERA to 4.10, assuming the same levels of performance from the pitchers. That could’ve made a difference in the final NL West standings.

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by Andrew Martin on Mar 21, 2010 10:07 PM MDT reply actions  

See, this is where I'm saying you're absolutely wrong and it makes me think you didn't actually read what I wrote.

An absolutely average defender in RF wouldn’t have prevented 21 more runs from scoring, because Brad Hawpe didn’t (because of the Rockies pitching) allow all of those purported 21 runs to score in the first place. That Randy Winn didn’t actually save San Francisco 16.5 runs, because Giants pitching wouldn’t have allowed some percentage of those runs to cross the plate in the first place.

by Rox Girl on Mar 22, 2010 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh and let me just clarify what I think you are missing...

UZR is not based on the actual number of runs scored against the Rockies, instead it’s based on plays made or missed by fielders and then an estimate is derived from those plays to determine how many runs would score from that situation in a neutral (meaning pitching neutral, field neutral, etc..,) setting. What I’m saying is that Brad Hawpe’s defense probably costs our pitchers more runs than a neutral fielder, but not as many as he would an average pitching team (which would be that -21.3 number). He might cost a team like Washington 30 runs, but the Rockies 12.

by Rox Girl on Mar 22, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

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