Sunday Rockpile: That witch in the cellar is only part of it
by Rox Girl on Mar 7, 2010 9:07 AM MST
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PrintTroy Renck opines that rehearsed and choreographed celebrations, like say, Troy Tulowitzki and Clint Barmes inventing a double play dance they can do each time after turning two (because of Sam Adams' Toolegit2quitzki nickname, I'm envisioning Hammer) are good for baseball. Wait, that's not exactly what he said and I'm twisting Renck's words? Yes, probably, but he draws a fuzzy line in his column justifying why he thinks Prince Fielder and the Brewers walk-off celebration over the Giants was appropriate, but Barry Zito's plunking of Fielder was not, so I'm taking some of the freedom he's giving us here. Personally, I'm all for walk-off celebrations, however I think what the Brewers did crosses over into an area that I'm pretty uncomfortable with.
First, its staging took place while a play was still in progress, in effect incorporating the home run itself into the celebration. Despite Renck's claims that the game was over, this is not entirely true, as until Fielder touched home, the game was still going on, so his teammates lining up for the mock collision were doing so during the game. Fielder stooping into bowling ball shape and hesitating before that last hop onto home, was doing so while the game was still in progress. Are we paying to watch a Harlem Globetrotter-esque exhibition and expect stunts and shenanigans during play, or are we paying to watch these players execute at the highest level of their craft? If you're a fan of the Nationals, perhaps the answer is neither, and there admittedly isn't much craft to the back end of a home run trot, even when it's not Fielder we're talking about, but I definitely think a distinction has to be kept between what happens during play and after.
I think my second point is one that Renck unintentionally hits on the hollow plastic head:
When kids play Wiffle ball in the backyard and go yard, do you see them put their head down and run the bases with all the emotion of a monk?
So we expect, and are paying, our professional athletes to behave like children? This makes a lot of sense to me, actually, as they certainly seem willing to live up to those expectations. My main point here, however, is that you can't complain about the retaliatory pitch or the bases clearing brawls and champion the choreographed celebrations used to show up an opponent at the same time, as they are two sides of the same coin.
Those same Wiffle ball contests Renck refers to also tend to feature wrestling matches in the dirt, sore losers leaving the game in the second inning if things start off badly, and a certain flexibility with the rules, particularly by the rulemakers. Renck certainly isn't advocating that baseball goes more in these directions, but only wants the good parts in opening this gate of more emotional and childlike ballplayers, because you know, gates like this you can only open a little and bad things never come through along with the good. I've seen enough Evil Dead movies to know that this is typically a very bad idea.
I think what Renck and others recognize in the Brewers celebration is a high quality comedic stunt. He's absolutely right that it was hilarious and entertaining. In this sense, I'm very glad it happened. I'm also very glad that it's a unique baseball moment. Good comedy is difficult to reproduce, even for talented professional comedians and writers. I guarantee that if encouraged, it wouldn't be long before these baseball celebrations became stupid, vain and boorish. The other example Renck cites, of the Yankees bouquet celebration would be a good case in point.
So what I'm saying is keep the sense of decorum and tradition in baseball, be glad when somebody comes up with a clever idea to break through it or subvert it like Fielder and the Brewers did, just don't encourage it, if that makes any sense, and don't get all haughty when the corresponding plunk occurs to restore balance to the sport.
Apparently there's some article at the Denver Post about how Rockies hitters could be the subject of a Katy Perry song (Hot n Cold, since I probably need to be specific here to avoid us getting into a bannable conversation) but the link has been broken for me all morning.
The Rockies are starting to sound defensive and potentially in denial when it comes to Rafael Betancourt's shoulder. Stiffness that's not subsiding and unusual for him in the Spring is a big concern for Betancourt. For the Rockies, I think it's really worrisome only if both he and Huston Street are out for a significant chunk of 2010. The team can probably absorb one major bullpen loss without a significant dent to its prospects, two or more and things start to get tricky as certain players down the line (such as Matt Daley and Manny Corpas) must live up to higher expectations or lofty projections. We won't be able to afford the typically inevitable letdowns or disappointments from young players that we have limited data on.
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Bettancourt
says he was better than two days ago. He’s older, and doesn’t heal as fast as a 25yo. Since he’s still getting healthy, and just starting to work on his conditioning, I don’t see any need to panic.
As far as the on-field celebrations go, where was the discussion when Tulo went back up the line after crossing the plate (he was actually IN the play) and touched the runner before he crossed the plate? If I’m reading right, that was a play that you found similar?
I say can the celebrations. This isn’t basketball… The fans don’t need to see someone yelling loudly at the pitcher when they get a single as they run to 1B.
I would rather not see it get like tennis either. Imagine a batter grunting on every swing…
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
I'm not a big fan of the celebrations either
But then again, MLB has also taken away the ability to plunk them (not the headhunting kind – the low grade fastball to the backside kind) if they decide to showboat. It used to be a two way street that kept things in check, now that’s gone. So if you can’t plunk ’em, they need to take the showboating away also
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
by SoxRoxFan on Mar 7, 2010 9:55 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
This is where I disagree on this point
to me, the ONLY time a plunk is justified is to respond to an inappropriate “headhunting” of one of your guys (which, in of itself, should never be justified)…but NEVER to retaliate for celebration/HR/anything else. That, to me, is flat sore-loser action. You don’t want the other guy to celebrate? Don’t let him have any reason to do so. You give up a game winning bomb to a guy, then he beat you…and you hitting him with the ball is horse**** in my opinion. If he wants to celebrate, that’s his thing. To the victors go the spoils. Plunking a guy for celebrating, to me, is the equivalent of intentionally tripping a hoops player after a showy dunk or late-hitting a football player after a touchdown. You’re really just empahsizing the point that you got whooped and you’re mad about it. I’m a traditionalist about many (most?) things but I hate this.
As for over the top celebrating itself, not particularly a fan but like many things in life, if its funny, its worth it. The Brewers thing was funny. A little emotion isn’t a bad thing. I know these guys are professionals but I like to think they care as much as I do, and if they show it on the field, I guess I shouldn’t complain. A few of these a year are fine. If it gets to BASEketball type stuff than perhaps I’ll revisit, but right now I don’t see any issues to get twisted up about.
I would hate to see MLB become the NFL
I hate the little dances that the NFL players do, if it gets into MLB. At least players like Fielder will face retribution with a 90+ mph fastball.
Making facetious trade rumors since 2012AD
Do you really think this will happen?
I mean, there is internal regulation from the team itself. I can’t imagine, for instance, that Tracy/Helton/Tulo/Cook would let someone get away with clowning too much. We have to give these guys credit. And further, how do you feel about pitcher strikeout histrionics, posing for HRs, or even Spilly speeding around the bases…I mean, its a fine line.
Even pitcher histrionics are intolerable
Sometimes the difference between a long fly ball out and a homerun is 1/8" of an inch on where the ball and bat make contact, or wind direction, or humidity.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
Totally agree with this comment. It's one thing to show enthusiasm and glee when warranted...
but it is quite another to show up the other team/player with planned rituals that bring attention only to self. Can you imagine what Fielder would have faced if he’d tried this little gem against Nolan Ryan? Heater in the ribs.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
I agree that plunking someone for "showing you up" after a home run (game-winning or not) is being a sore loser
But frankly I think that the choreographed celebrations could be classified as being a sore winner as it were.
by controlled_slide on Mar 7, 2010 10:41 AM MST up reply actions
I agree about the sore loser part
But my point is really that the “traditional” part of baseball has been an implied set of “checks and balances”. Showboating wasn’t tolerated, and the perpetrator was reminded of that fact. They’ve taken away one part of the equation, so now there’s imbalance.
With that said, I don’t subscribe to the philosophy of intentionally plunking a batter on the next at-bat if they hit a home run. We’re in agreement there. But I am more traditional when it comes to over-the-top shenanigans that have crept into the game. The fact that a good/great player fails 65 – 70% of the time should keep you humble and there’s no need for “irrational exuberance” – unless you’ve won the World Series.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
Is there really
imbalance, though? Or is it just a product of “modern times?” I mean, back in the good ole days none of these guys were ever thinking about sportscenter, etc. Who knows what they would have done in the current era of tv exposure (and how that sort of stuff impacts, among other things, endorsements). Further, I’m not sure I buy that the old-school guys “respected the game” anymore than the current guys. I’m sure there were nonstop instances of showboating, etc. Just not in the same way we think of it now.
So the presence of ESPN, and the sordid number of other media outlets
validate/justify showboating? Just for the next endorsement deal? Pardon my cynicism, but that simply states that the ends justify the means. I can’t buy into that.
Yeah, I’m sure there were different kinds of antics “way back when”, but I’m also sure that there well defined boundaries that players didn’t cross. My contention is that these boundaries have vanished. And, to me that’s the the unfortunate part.
Like it or not, the players ARE/WILL BE role models. Kids see the stuff they’re doing and think it’s OK. I disagree. I want my son to play the game with respect and humility – you can celebrate the accomplishments quietly with your team in the dugout. Why? Because the next time up, you could fail. So if you showboat your success, you’re giving the other guy the opportunity to one-up you the next time. To me that’s a recipe for poor sportsmanship.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I thought that Teekalong meant that ESPN exacerbates the showboating
Not justifies it.
by controlled_slide on Mar 7, 2010 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
Understood
But it seems to me that we’re apologizing for it.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
A few points:
1. I agree with your point that showing someone up gives them the opportunity (right?) to show you up next time…but my point is that this stuff should generally work itself out. The players know this stuff, and that’s why you rarely see guys going nuts over non-pivotal plays, and why the guys that do have a bad rap. General professionalism and internal policing handles most of this stuff.
2. The “boundaries” you speak of have, in my view, not necessarily banished but just become obsolete in the new world — not just on the field, but everywhere. The old-school guys undoubtedly got away with murder because the only stuff you heard about was filtered through beat reporters, who were beholden to the players. Nowadays you can’t have a drink without someone taking a picture. Just not fair to compare. And while I don’t condone ESPN as a justification for acting the fool, you cannot dispute that players income is often very correlated to their Q factor. Being famous is big business, and a huge part of sports and sports marketing. You don’t get famous by being boring.
3. Stemming from that, the “role model” stuff is a bit of a problem for me. Not to go all Barkley on you, but my guess (and my experience) is that most ballplayers are far from role models. But in terms of being role models for on-field behavior, I agree with you. I just disagree that plunking is the way to keep them in line.
I don't disagree with you
Look, I think A-Rod’s off field antics are simply foolish. And I also think the paparazzi are the biggest scum on the planet. I don’t care what he does off the field. He doesn’t have to be a saint in his personal life. To the same extent, I don’t give a tinker’s damn about Tiger’s indiscretions outside of the golf course either. But on the field, show some class.
I’m not trying to go on an “get off my lawn” rant here, but just because the “new world” condones behavior that was once considered bad behavior, doesn’t necessarily make it OK. That is simply apologizing and sweeping the behavior under the rug. It’s “Manny being Manny”. Horse manure. It’s bad behavior, plain and simple and it shouldn’t be allowed.
I’m in agreement that two wrongs don’t make a right. I teach that to my kids.
A case in point, A long time ago (in a galaxy far away), I questioned a called strike by an umpire. The next pitch was two feet outside and eye-high. He called Strike Three on the next pitch. I learned a lesson from that – don’t try to show up the other guy – you end up losing in the long run.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
Fair points here
my idea is not that the modern culture somehow, on an ethical level, “justifies” the bad behavior, I just think that (a) it exposes it more than before, making it seem worse now, but; (b) it was always there in one form or another; and © its just reality and probably a futile effort to fight it. But that’s just me, not saying you shouldn’t feel the way you feel.
Agreed. It might be futile
But I still have a chance to “buck the trend” by teaching my kids what I was taught. I’m not just trying to be an old foagie that “walked uphill bothways” – that’s being stubborn and myopic.
However, I will hold onto ideals and values that I think are worthwhile: a little sportsmanship is something I value dearly.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
Ironically, you say two wrongs don’t make a right and then in the very next paragraph you talk about how two wrongs made a right…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Missed the point, Resolution.
We were both wrong. I was wrong for questioning the call, and he was wrong for calling a ball a strike. Was it fair? Was it good sportsmanship? No.
The moral of the story was that I started it, he finished it – we’re both wrong. But the fact that he one-upped me goes to the point that showboating is just poor taste – not good entertainment.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I'm not entirely sure questioning a call is akin to showboating
and depending on how you questioned it, I wouldn’t automatically call it poor sportsmanship. Also, I’m not sure that one being one-upped shows that showboating is in poor taste.
Honestly (and this isn’t directed at you as much as it is everyone), but we would really need to define showboating – and I think a lot of this discussion is being generated by not only different attitudes towards showboating but different definitions of it.
Do we differentiate between Joba emphatically fist-pumping a strikeout to end an inning, Manny standing in the box longer than usual after a home-run, Prince’s bowling ball routine, a closer getting emotional after a save, and Babe Ruth calling his shot? I know I do…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
In my case, I was completely wrong.
I was being a punk, and in the end, I got punk’d. Fair and square (or not so much).
On the whole, we as a community do need to agree on what constitutes “showboating”. That said, for me, I would submit that anything like what Prince did, or gawking at a home run would certainly fall into that category.
I was at Helton’s 500th double game, and how he reacted was with the greatest dignity and class. It had nothing to do with who he hit that double off of, but the accomplishment itself. That was class in its finest form.
To me, that’s the antithesis of showboating, and perhaps how we should measure others against. Just my 2 pennies.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I actually thought the Prince Fielder celebration was great
I don’t really think it mocked the other team or cheapened the game or anything – it wasn’t directed at the Giants, they’re not even division rivals or anything. Also, realistically, how many players in the majors can and would really pull something like that off? I don’t see it as opening the floodgate towards bush league antics or anything, and honestly, if it became a real problem, baseball would swoop in pretty fast and change it…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I've never liked Prince Fielder anyways.
If there was one guy in the league I suspected of taking steroids it’s him. He’s monstrous, with a terrible temper. He’s just not someone to model after. I thought that celebration was out of line, but you have to look at the entire team doing it, not just Fielder.
Im not opposed to celebrations...
But I don’t like choreographed celebrations. The beauty of a walk off celebration is the spontaneous, pure emotion of the moment. The obvious ones come to mind…Spilly sprinting around the bases, Helton letting it all out and jumping onto the plate after finally getting to Saito…that is celebration that isn’t planned out.
Fielder and the Brewers celebration was something that they probably discussed months prior and missed on the immediate emotion of the win.
Check out my website...www.rockiesreview.com
Weren't they totally out of the playoff picture at that point?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
By the way, RG
There’s no link to the Renck article anywhere here.
by controlled_slide on Mar 7, 2010 10:46 AM MST reply actions
I don't see any problem with celebrations, choreographed or not. I had fun playing baseball and I want my favorite athletes to do so as well.
They should certainly be able to show other teams/players up, because anything that creates an increased rivalry/hostility between teams is great in today’s increasingly professional (read: boring) interaction between teams. I’m a fan of baseball, but I’m also a fan of great theater, and I welcome an increase in such celebrations and enmity between teams and between fan bases. The increased incentive to beat one another could only make for better baseball.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
I think there's a lot of truth here
indeed, the “excessiveness” of the celebration is entirely dependent on which dugout you are sitting. I’m sure if Aaron Rowand would have sprinted Spilly-style around the bases, we’d all be saying he was acting like a teenager and “show some class” and “act like you’ve been there before” and all that. Hopefully not, but maybe. Who knows. But Giant fans probably have a bit more anger towards Spilly now, and that’s good stuff. To me, emotion is such a great part of the game (any game, its a big reason why I love college sports so much) that anything that attempts to artificially suppress it is wrong. Sure, I don’t want a league full of Ocho Cinco type stuff, but frankly I’d rather that than a league full of straight-faced, emotionless robotics.
I'm not sure I want to see increased hostility
at least direct attempts to engender hostility. That being said 1. I don’t blame the Giants for having a chip on their shoulder about this and 2. I think the Prince celebration was good clean fun – it was the end of the season and they had little to play for and were just messing around.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
People get offended over the silliest of things.
Of course, it is not within my rights to objectively label what is and is not offensive. If Fielder’s celebration offended people (the Giants, fans, other teams’ players, etc), that’s fine. I can’t change that.
But I continue to be astounded at the seemingly gaping lack of logic that some baseball fans apply to situations like this. As many of you may remember from my discussions last year on this subject, I take an opinion somewhat in the minority on the issue of “retaliation” in baseball. For me, it will never be welcomed in any situation, because I simply find the premise of throwing a ball at another player out of pure spite is not only immature testosterone fueled dramaturgy, but detrimental to the unfolding of the play of the game itself.
The application of painful injury to another human being after being “shown up” is considered inappropriate in nearly every important scenario in real life, except in sports play. The implication is that the wild and intense competitive nature of sport is that this sort of radical element becomes acceptable. The big tough guys on the baseball field/hockey rink/etc. get to cause a little pain and throw a little fit if the other team does something they don’t like. And to top it off, it has actually become widely justified (ESPECIALLY in hockey, but the same is true for baseball) as a “traditional part of the game”, something that makes it part of its identity.
The problem I have here is the somewhat brutal hypocrisy that shows up when a wide selection of sports fans (and this is of course a generalization, aimed only at fans who take this position, not an attack on sports fandom as a whole) take such a strong negative view of putting on a choreographed performance as Fielder did, and finding it absolutely justifiable in the “tradition of the game” to give the man a little baseball spanking for it.
Frankly, I see absolutely no reason why the sporting world should be run any differently from any other professional situation. The first criticism most readers bring to me when they read my opinions here is that “well, you’ve obviously never played sports, and you don’t know what it’s like when you’re in the heat of the moment.” I understand perfectly fine that playing a sport is intense. I think, in truth, it is this interlocutor that doesn’t understand that in 99 of 100 situations, “I was caught up in the heat of the moment” is not an appropriate excuse for assaulting another person.
This is a perfect storm of conditions that allow what would otherwise be deemed an immature and insulting practice of throwing baseballs at other people to be veiled behind what I take to be meaningless justifications, and further integrated into the practice by the fact that this sort of hyper-masculine behavior is expected in the sporting arena, and that quite frankly, those many fans I’ve called out above simply find the fight entertaining, and therefore overlook any close thought on the issue in favor of having some fun watching people get mad at one another, only becoming suddenly inappropriate if the target is the opponent’s head.
I remain steadfast that the Giants had every right to get offended by the Fielder performance if they so chose, and that Fielder and his teammates probably didn’t give a lot of thought about the implications of their actions, but an offseason long grudge + an attack in-game will never in my mind be justifiable, especially not under no other protection than “it’s just tradition”.
I remember several people here at PR, after a game early last season, getting into a tizzy because James Loney and Russell Martin DARED to chest bump on the field after winning. It was taken as a personal attack against the team, despite the fact that chestbumping in such a manner had become a somewhat common celebration tactic for the Dodgers. They continued to do it throughout the season. Living in LA, watching the amount of Dodger games that I do, I probably saw it happen 20 times. I am jumping to a hypothetical conclusion here, but I’m rather confident that some of the people complaining about that behavior would have been perfectly okay with one of those two players getting a ball to the hip the next day. So, I leave you with this: is it really logical to equate a harmless celebration with a harmful plunking?
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That last line is really key here
harmless celebrating. There was nothing in the Prince Fielder celebration directed at the Giants. It wasn’t intentionally mocking, it wasn’t aimed a specific Giant – I viewed it as Prince Fielder 1. Knowing he’s a really good ballplayer and 2. Knowing he’s a really fat ball player, nothing more than that really.
Not that I’m saying if it were a ‘harmful celebration’ it would merit a plunking. I’m kind of neutral on the whole plunking thing. It definitely can be dangerous, but it also just puts a man on base so it’s really not helping the team.
But you do bring up an interesting point of why is throwing a baseball at someone completely accepted and a non-malicious, choreographed display reviled? I can at least appreciate the creativity and ‘goofing around’ nature of the latter but the former is petty.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I agree with you. Plunking a batter is almost always detrimental to a team, and the punishment just doesn't really match the "crime".
I only like it insofar as it engenders rivalry between the two teams and their fans. People are far too sensitive about this stuff and it’s getting a little ridiculous.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Too sensitive about celebrations, perhaps, but I would say that people aren't sensitive enough to plunkings.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
I generally think this is right on...
though I disagree somewhat with the (maybe misinterpreted by me) premise that fans are principally responsible for approving plunking — I know your context here is the interplay of plunking v. celebrating, and I agree with you there, but I add that, at the end of the day, while “fan approval” might influence the fact that the practice is effectively approved by baseball (at least, the penalties are obviously not harsh enough to prevent it), at the end of the day its still the PLAYERS (and, in the case of Ozzie Guillen, etc, obviously the managers) that believe in/approve/promote this practice. It wouldn’t matter what the fans think if the players themselves didn’t believe in it. But to bring back Ozzie, didn’t he demote a pitcher a few years ago for refusing to plunk a guy and/or just missing the guy? I mean, the essence of the problem is not in the seats or the media, its in the dugout. And I doubt that will change, as I expect that Zito is largely lionized by MLB players/managers for his actions…
I don't remember stating the fans as necessarily principally responsible.
If that was what I implied, I’ll adjust the sentiment: I feel that the fact that fans are often greatly entertained by fights, plunkings, or other forms of aggression on the part of athletes, does make a relevant contribution to its masking. While it may be completely true that the problem actually stems from machinations going on inter-game, the lack of accountability extra-game from fans and media outlets does little to raise the issue. If fans were truly turned off by this behavior, they would voice their concerns, and it would be looked at. As it stands, they’re okay with it, so everyone doing the plunking feels free to carry on without any scrutiny.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
You're right
but its a chicken/egg thing to me. The reasons most fans don’t care is possibly the prurient lust for violence among fans that you suggest (though I think this is inextricably linked with sports/sportsfans and thus not likely to ever disappear, though certainly less prevalent in baseball) but moreso because they know the players/managers support/believe in it. Thus, as you alluded in your original post, if “those that play the game” think its OK, who am I to judge? As you can tell, I disagree with this position and I agree with your view (principally), but I think approval of the actual guys on the field is a larger factor behind fan justification than you seem to credit.
Well, if it is truly a chicken and the egg relationship, then we can cut it at either point.
We can kill the chicken or crush the egg so it doesn’t spawn into another chicken.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
But who is "we"?
That’s the problem. The “we” needs to be the league changing rules, and for the reasons discussed, that isn’t going to happen unless the chicken/egg relationship changes of its own momentum. Or something. I’m lost in this analogy now, time to step away…
lol, okay.
I guess my point is that the league enforcing stronger rules may not happen if nobody cares.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:33 PM MST up reply actions
Based on the comments so far...
I realize that I’m in the minority view here. I’m not subscribing to the principle of “hit a home run, get plunked” That’s just stupid. But so is over-engineered/over-choreographed celebrations. I hate football for that very reason. Geez, just give the ball to the ref and celebrate with your team on the sidelines.
My point is that the the deterrent of getting plunked was often enough to avoid players showing up the other team. I am not a fan of anyone getting hit. It’s wrong. But I’m a bigger fan of “class act” players and teams. Play the game, win with your team, but don’t taunt the other team. That’s classless and poor taste. I can get that watching WWE or XFL (or even the NFL).
As I said above, I want my son to play the game with humility and respect, because he’ll fail more than he succeeds.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
The question is, why do you feel that any such celebration is done with the intent to taunt the other team?
I’m just dissecting your perspective from my own, so please don’t take this as some sort of “I think you’re wrong” attack. I’m just looking to see better where you’re coming from.
“But I’m a bigger fan of "class act" players and teams.”
What, in your view, are the qualities of a “class act player or team”? It seems to me that plunking a player would be an act that would be considered classless. Yet you state that you’re a “bigger fan” of class act teams OVER plunking. I don’t believe those two things are exclusive. To me, a class act player would not bean a player, even were he showed up.
“Play the game, win with your team, but don’t taunt the other team. That’s classless and poor taste.”
Further, on a less confused perspective on my part, I’m genuinely curious why you feel celebrations are classless and in poor taste. It’s certainly not a minority view. It’s just not one I understand clearly. Is it because it exhudes a lack of humbleness? Do you consider it to be arrogant behavior, at the expense of another team or player? I think in many cases, that can be the case, but do you feel certain that Prince Fielder and the Brewers had in their minds “this action will humiliate our opposing team” as they were performing the act?
“As I said above, I want my son to play the game with humility and respect, because he’ll fail more than he succeeds.”
I take this to mean, and of course correct me if I’m wrong, that you believe that the fact that one will fail more regularly that succeed demands a certain restraint on the part of somebody. In other words, you feel (and again, correct me if I’m wrong) that celebrating in such a way suggests a certain selfish perception of invincibility, or perhaps a lack of awareness of the frailty of baseball skill?
I can’t agree with that point of view, if that is in fact where you’re coming from. I believe people of any sort have the right to have fun celebrating something, even when they may fail at it the next day. I don’t really see why there would be a connection here implying that one should not feel compelled to celebrate because they can’t repeat the performance every time. I can fully understand wanting to play with humility (which I, again subjectively, don’t associate with this particular celebration) and respect, but I am still confused over your “because he’ll fail more than he succeeds” part. It just sounds to me like you’re suggesting that unless you can hit a home run every time you come up to bat, you should just shut up and be glad you lucked into it today.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
just a thought
but isn’t the likelihood of future failure part of the reason for the celebration? If success were inevitable, celebration would be hollow. You celebrate BECAUSE its so hard to succeed.
I see where SoxRox is coming from, but to me its all about the context/moment.
That's precisely why his statement confused me.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:33 PM MST up reply actions
I see that nothing I'm saying will make a difference on this subject.
I recognize that we see little common ground here. That said, I’ll move on to another subject.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
Not all celebration is taunting
When I or someone on my team did something well, we congratulated each other in the dugout or on the sideline, or a simple high five on the field was enough. But I can say with absolute certainty that any one of us would have been benched if we started some sort of crazy dance in the end zone or around home plate. That’s how I was taught. This time you win, the next time, you might be on the other end of the same kind of situation.
I despise Cinco Ocho’s antics. It took 10 other guys on the field doing their part. The team succeeded. Not just him.
I look at Pujols who has more God given ability to hit a baseball into another galaxy as an example. Yep, he’ll celebrate with his teammates – as he should – and yes, he’s confident to the point of being almost cocky that he’ll hit the next pitch even further. But he’s not taunting the pitcher when he does hit a home run. Chances are, statistically speaking, he make an out the next time at bat. If he did taunt, then the pitcher would have the right to taunt him when he won that particular at bat.
Look, I’m all for any game being fun and that they should congratulate each other and celebrate victory. But when celebration goes into the kind of chest-thumping, I am the greatest, you suck banter that we see today. I call BS on that.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
You still haven't addressed my question though.
What about “chest-thumping” or the Fielder incident implies to you “I am the greatest, you suck”? I don’t know about Fielder, but I can pretty much guarantee that the Dodgers chest bumping is most certainly NTO meant to imply disrespect.
That may be “how you were taught”, but have you ever stepped back and thought a bit about their intentions, rather than just assume that their intent is to be disrespectful? This is why I am confused about your perspective. To me, it’s like you’re saying that a certain behavior must imply a certain mental state without any evidence besides “I think it does”.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:40 PM MST up reply actions
NOT*
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:41 PM MST up reply actions
So if you want to go down that road
I could say that if I danced on home plate, and said, “hey, no disrespect, I’m just happy”
Look at it another way, let’s say that you get a job or a promotion that you and a friend were going after. Would you go up to them and start thumping your chest, and say, “hey, no disrespect”?
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I don't think its a fair comparison
between regular everyday Joes’ competing for a job, and amped up athletes chest bumping.
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
Really?
I can’t buy into that. Why can’t I be amped up when I get a promotion (which I did recently). But I wouldn’t go up to a colleague and say “Yeah! I got it. I ROCK!” I could, but I would guarantee that I would be thought of as an ass for doing that.
Did I celebrate? You bet. I went out with family and friends and had a nice dinner. And that colleague and I had lunch together.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I think you are on to something here
though the context might be off…i.e., co-workers are not “competitors” in the sense that players are. To extend the thought, if you got a huge client that your competitor was also gunning for, and you saw the competitor at the bar that night while you were celebrating, it might be tacky to rub it in but it would also be reasonable…
Just to extend your point
I’m in the Systems Integration Consulting business. And competition is fierce. I’m friends with many of the same folks that I compete against. We have dinner together, we talk about clients all the time. But when they win, you tip your cap, and move on to the next one, as they would for you.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
fair enough
and that is probably a good analogy for baseball players, who are obviously very cordial/friendly with one another. But the main point for me is that if you scored a huge client and then strutted it a little bit, while it might cheese your friend/competitors a bit, they would understand, and vice versa.
I think the real point that all of this has distilled is that we’re all essentially cool with emotional celebration with teammates in some form, and we all agree stuff designed and intended to show up the other side is bad form. Maybe this is an obvious statement, but seems a fair construction to me.
I'm not saying you can't be competitive and say good job buddy.
I do that myself as a matter of fact. I’m a pretty competitive person when it comes to sports(I played tennis and softball) and work. I think professional athletes do have a seriously higher level of competitiveness than us average folks and alot of these antics are just gamesmanship and entertainment for the paying customer.
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
Kinda funny, but not
I have a saying that my friends and family have heard all too often: “Jim plays til Jim wins” (Jim being my first name). I’m extremely competitive. Was with my two brothers (and sister), and in Baseball and Football. I’m not pro athelete, so I can’t talk to the kinds pressure they have in that arena (no pun intended).
What I can talk to is my admiration of players like Todd Helton, Kirby Pucket, et al., who are great players who play(ed) the game the right way (at least from my point of view).
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I wasn't trying to be funny. I was serious
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
I wasn't making light of your post
What I was making light of was the inside joke my family and friends have when it comes to my competitiveness. What I was also alluding to was that I can’t know what type of pressure the players are under to perform and what it must feel like to succeed at that level. Still, I watch Todd and others stay dignified. I admire that.
Please don’t take it as an attack. I try not to make or take things personally, especially on the web.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
I didn't take it as an attack.
I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn’t trying to be funny. :) It’s all good.
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
I think depending on the level at which one is playing
celebration changes. Professionals can and should celebrate. Fans seem to enjoy it the celebrations for the most part, and even the fans on the opposing team get something out of it, by encouraging rivalries.
But I don’t agree with plunking as a equalizer for celebrations. Plunking = plunking.
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
I know you're not saying that Little League, HS athletes shouldn't celebrate
But I can’t agree that there’s a different set of rules for professionals.
I’m also not suggesting that plunking is right. What I am saying is that baseball had an unwritten code of ethics that all players adhered to.
Beating the competition, 4 tacos at a time
Omir Santos
hit an inside-the-park grand slam against the Nats. Yes, Omir Santos.
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We'd have to include Alan Johnson.
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
Minaya would never go for that
Especially since it would be decreasing the Mets’ Latin factor
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 7, 2010 12:19 PM MST up reply actions
But but but but Jeff Francoeur!
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by Greg Stanwood on Mar 7, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions
He was traded for Ryan Church
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 7, 2010 5:13 PM MST up reply actions
If it was me, I would have hit him too...
Never been a fan of showboating, and that’s exactly why I see the Brewers celebration to be. I don’t mind the big jump on the plate, but contriving things to be more than that bothers me. And I seriously hope Tulo and Barmes DON’T cook up a DP Dance… I just don’t think it’s necessary, and that’d make me all seriously sad facey n’ stuff. Stay Classy Rox!
by thelastspoonbender on Mar 7, 2010 1:58 PM MST reply actions
I would have a hard time seeing Barmes do that
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 7, 2010 5:31 PM MST up reply actions
Yea...
Barmes and Tulo both seem to be serious minded fellows. That would be a quite odd sight. Now if Spilly and Hammel came up with something I wouldn’t be a bit surprised.
Troy Tulowitzki - Best SS in the MLB - 2010 MVP
"With a guy like Melo, it’s tough to stop him with one person. You can’t. I don’t know one guy who can stop Melo on a consistent basis."-CP3
Brad Hawpe - Will prove the doubters wrong
PS Let's win the NL West in 2010, shall we?
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