Sunday Rockpile: DINGERZ Olivo to the All-Star game? 2010 second half starts today after first one ends on sour note
by Rox Girl on Jul 4, 2010 10:00 AM MDT
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PrintHappy Independence Day, Purple Row:
UPDATE: Olivo gets robbed by his fellow players. TIME FOR VENGEANCE. WE SHOULD LAY WASTE TO THE NL.
Jimenez needs company on all-star team - The Denver Post- Miguel Olivo, Carlos Gonzalez and Troy Tulowitzki all have chances to be named to this year's NL squad, but as the Denver Post link suggests, Olivo's case seems to be the strongest. Many of us, myself included, would have thought that if any Rockies backstop was an All-Star this season it would have been the one that's currently able to walk out of a paper bag but not really hit out of one, but even though Chris Iannetta's breakout/rebound has yet to materialize, the Rockies did get a surprising breakout from a player experiencing what we hope to be a career renaissance.
It's not a frequent occurrence that a player will find value in their 30's that wasn't there in their mid to late 20's, but it does happen, and as is the case with Olivo, when it does, it will usually be accompanied by a move to a more ideal situation for the player, not only terms of park, but also lineup opportunities and general attitude. Luis Gonzalez going to the Diamondbacks would be the ultimate recent example, but we've also seen it with players like Mark Grudzielanek or Marco Scutaro to bring up another contemporary example.
It seems what's driving Olivo's success is the fact that he's finally figured out what to do with off speed pitches:
In this chart of his run value by pitch type (stats courtesy of FanGraphs) you can see that Olivo first had a turnaround with hitting fastballs while with the Royals, even though he was losing ground on breaking pitches, notably sliders. Since coming to Colorado, Olivo's kept his improvement vs. fastballs, but also regained his ability to hit the slider and what's most pertinent to why he's having the year he is, would be the way he's now valuable when hitting change-ups. Curveballs are still a problem area, but the move to the NL, and particularly to Colorado means he's going to be seeing less of them as a general rule.
The second big change for Olivo would be a more patient, selective approach. Olivo's taking more pitches than he did while with Kansas City, who seemed to actually be pushing him to be overly aggressive. From 2007-2009, Olivo swung at 43.2% of pitches outside the strike zone, dropping that number to 35.4% in 2010. Notably, he's also cut back considerably on pitches he swings at within the strike zone, going from 81.2% in 2008, to 74.2% last season to the 71.5% figure he's at in 2010. As a result his walks are up, but because he's waiting for and eventually getting his pitch, so are his hits.
Is this sustainable? I don't know, I would think as long as he maintains bat speed, it would be to an extent. His .381 BABIP definitely suggests that he's going to give some back to regression, but keep in mind that BABIP is high at least in part because of that increased selectivity. It's clear this is not the same player that Olivo was in Kansas City, and I would suggest therefore, that he's not really that likely to drop back to that level of production even when he does eventually regress.
At any rate, as Matt Daley to the Colorado Springs Gazette points out, "you don't ever want to get on his bad side." I would suggest that Olivo's peers take note of that when they decide his All-Star fate.
More links after the jump:
- ESPN’s ‘Ultimate Standings’ rank Rockies rank highest among Denver teams - Denver Business Journal
- Rockies players fight their way off disabled list - Pueblo Chieftan
- Stewart leaves game with elbow injury | ColoradoRockies.com: News - And more injuries... with a lot of other notes from the official site.
- Moss: Rockies prospect Friedrich finds Double-A challenging - The Denver Post
- Helton's back sore, but funny bone works fine - The Denver Post
- Renck: Jimenez an easy all-star pick - The Denver Post
- Herrera's play poses tough roster moves - The Denver Post - Note that the word "MLB starter" is missing from Tracy's statement. I don't want to rip on Herrera too much, if you go back through the archives, you'll see that I've always been a strong supporter of his in the climb through the minors. It's just he's not the quality we want there just yet. And since Clint Barmes has easily been outplaying him since Tulowitzki got injured, I don't think we have to worry about it. I do think the type of player that Herrera is gets underrated by SABR/wOBA standards, but not enough to make him a more active part of the future team a strong consideration.
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further proof that the all star game is a joke
Omar Infante is on the All Star team….and Olivo and Cargo don’t even get a sniff
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
And they "graciously" discussed Ubaldo last of the pitchers.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Why do I listen to Charlie Manuel's drivel?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I can understand CarGo
But McCann and Molina going there over Olivo is an absolute joke.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah OF is tough to get into for Cargo
but the Catchers such a joke…Yadier is having an awful year
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 4, 2010 10:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Charlie Manuel is an idiot.
He claims he wants to win via small ball, but then leaves out a catcher that is FAST and gets on base.
I’m disgusted. How much you want to bet Halladay starts the ASG?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
No way
Jimenez and Johnson are better pitchers this year and he knows it.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Doesn't mean he'll do it.
He’s a homer for his boys, he always has been. I do give him credit for not selecting Strasburg, but I’m thinking he really wanted him.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I've heard that the managers don't have nearly the power they used to.
No way MLB lets Manuel start Halladay over Ubaldo or Johnson.
no doubt in my mind
that Halladay is starting
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 4, 2010 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Seriously
I don’t care if Ubaldo even plays in the All-Star game. I’d rather he had the rest.
There is half of the season to go, and what is more important, the All-Star game or the Playoffs?
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Jul 4, 2010 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions
The oversight of Votto is horrible too
But Infante has played only 56 games and is neither an above average hitter or fielder
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions
Why don't Olivo and CarGo
get their All Star revenge against Manuel when we play the Phillies.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions
I'll take the revenge as well, except the rest of the season...
Let Olivo and Gonzales show them the 2nd half of the season that they should have been selected.
Enough of this mediocrity...win the NL West title
VOTE: Hawpe for 1B! ---- Hawpe for 1B!
Not me.
I’m really sick of the AL winning this thing. I don’t care who’s on the NL team or not, I want them to win.
I've gotta agree here. As much as I despise Manuel, NL needs to win
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Anyone missing Torrealba now?
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
Not especially
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions
I miss him in his own way, personality.
But Olivo has proved to be the better catcher this year.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Votto had better win the vote-in contest in the NL
Good to see Tulo got the nod. He’s STILL #1 among ALL MLB shortstops in WAR, via B-R or Fangraphs. I really wish we could watch them go.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 10:48 AM MDT reply actions
Votto should have gotten in over Infante
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah i can't believe Votto isn't starting at DH
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 4, 2010 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Guys
We forgot about the Final Vote. Think Olivo will be on there?
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
I don't think so. When do they announce who's eligible for the final voit?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I hope the country is smart enough to vote Votto over Olivo
But I’ll still vote Olivo if he’s on there. I wouldn’t be surprised if he isn’t. He’s easily forgotten:
MLB Story:
Yadier Molina, whose 2,251,285 votes held off veteran All-Stars Brian McCann of the Braves and Rodriguez of the Nationals.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions
cargo votto wagner bell and zimmerman
last man vote
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
our CarGo or Carlos Gomez?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I'd take Votto
but Zimm would be a great choice as well. Stupid Infante pick. What a waste.
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
Can we writein on the Final Vote?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Good luck winning that :)
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
No, I'm seriously asking....
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I think it's just an online poll, but I'm usually wrong about the all-star game
mostly because I don’t care
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
unfortunately for Cargo he is going up against
Votto and Z… and both of those closers are having great years and Wagner of course is a “big name” so you know he will get a ton of votes
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 4, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
I already know who I'm voting for in the AL (Swisher)
But I’m torn between CarGo and Votto, because I want our man to go, but after Votto is so deserving and after everything he’s been through :/
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
votto definitely deserves it
how is he not on the team in general
This link has all of them listed. You have to hunt through all the prose, as it isn’t listed on a sidebar, but they are all there.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
Not that I needed to stir the pot more
But if you suspected the SABR commutity was actively rooting for Ubaldo to fall apart, you were right. Satchel Price from BtB.
But this is a guy who was getting awfully lucky with earned runs and wins all year, so it’s nice to see him fall back to Earth a bit.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 10:57 AM MDT reply actions
Why does everyone hate the Rockies, except for you know, Rockies fans?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
seriously when did we become an evil team
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 4, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I know! It's like we've won a championship,
or have a huge payroll, or dirty cheating players. Or are in a terrible city with a lame ballpark.
I just don’t understand it.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
mountain...time zone?
that can’t be right, I’ve never heard of such a thing
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
It's mostly because Ubaldo's season challenged the foundation of SABR
If he had continued his success all season, there would be egg on their face.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions
Ubaldo's problem is that he can't avoid falling apart when an inning doesn't go his way anymore
LOB % is laughing at him when Ubaldo was laughing at it before.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions
He hasn't been fast enough at adjusting to his lack of control
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Also he's been dealing with mechanical issues as well
It’s fixable.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
He hasn't been fast enough at adjusting to his mechanical issues
Since the mechanical issues cause the lack of control, it is more or less the same thing.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
And what happens when he resumes being successful after the All-Star game...
I’m willing to pony up $4 for free range brown eggs for those who wish to throw those eggs!
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I've been noticing that for awhile.
It’s one thing to point out a player as being lucky or an outlier or whatever, but the SABR community showed they’re more political than scientific when they go over to rooting for a given result to prove their points.
I've definitely seen evidence of this as well
But it was never explicitly stated that directly before.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Unimpressive
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Because the hold onto their stats like UZR and FIP like there's nothing else worth looking at even when they're flawed
The stats generally show if a player is lucky or unlucky, and if it’s reasonable to expect progression or regression. It was reasonable to expect Ubaldo to regress, but you can’t expect it, otherwise seasons like Gibson’s or Guidry’s never happen. They’re good at giving a general basis, not true predictions.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions
In other words
They don’t want to admit they’re wrong sometimes.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
I almost feel like the SABER community has become the opposite of what it was originally intended to be
For me, the point of sabermetrics was to look at the game in a new way and question traditional stats that might not tell the whole story. This is what I loved about the movement. It always asked questions like “how can we look at this differently” or “what more do we need to learn here?”
Unfortunately some of the hard core SABER guys now seem to insinuate that they have all the answers and are unwilling to accept anything that doesn’t reflect what their stats say. I find this disappointing because I don’t want to see people use SABER stats as a way to talk down to other baseball fans.
Get well soon Tulo. The Rockies need you.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 4, 2010 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Okay, I'm looking at another oversight
Liriano and Weaver should be the two candidates to be starting for the AL, and they didn’t even sniff the final vote.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
At least Charlie Manuel won't be managing next season
We can finally get past that ridiculousness in theNL
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions
I wonder if Cox would manage the game
If the Braves won the NL this year and retired…..
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 4, 2010 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions
Such a joke
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Today we get to see if my winning ways at Coors continue.
Excellent.
I'm not making a banana bread pastrami cottage cheese sandwich. That would severely ruin my reputation.
I hope I can change my luck at Coors later this week when I see the Rockies/Cards.
Last home game I was at was Game 3 of the WS in 2007.
are you going to every game in the series?
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
too bad you miss Mortal Ubaldo Jimenez.
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
I hadn't heard of anything before the break, but you might be right
I know they were planning on giving him an extra day after the break though
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
yeah they are setting up ubaldo to pitch on thursday on his normal 5 day rest
so hes properly rested for the allstar game
So...according to Baseball-Reference WAR, the Rockies have two players who should be starting for the NL
Neither are named Ubaldo Jimenez, and neither will be at the game. Miguel Olivo leads all MLB catchers but was left off. Troy Tulowtizki unbelievably leads all MLB SS, but you know…he’s hurt.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:03 AM MDT reply actions
So, Roy Halladay and Ubaldo were both roughed up yesterday...
What do these two have in common this week?
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Josh Johnson is apparently immortal
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions
it was.
I should add that race clearly has nothing to do with the numbers that suggest these other pitchers are better, but I wonder how much it has with the commentary and the way they are pushing Ubaldo as a clearly inferior pitcher.
I don't wonder at all
To me, this is essentially the O-Dawg/Dye situation. It’s pretty clear the rationale they have used to make their claims, and it hasn’t really moved. Just because we disagree doesn’t mean it is racially motivated. Just like it wasn’t racially motivated because most GMs don’t overrate HRs and RBI anymore re: Dye.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
Obviously I'm a little more skeptical
and I don’t think it’s conscious, but I wonder if there would be this kind of sustained public assault against a white pitcher with similar luck. For instance, where’s the article on Tim Hudson? Why barely a peep about JA Happ last season?
I agree with you Rox Girl.
And frankly I also think that ODog and Dye’s and Hunter’s assertations aren’t entirely without merit. The MLB has spent FAR more money investing in Latin American player development, than development of African American players.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
the invested money would help
but much of that talent is inner city, where there is room for basketball courts, but not for baseball fields.
It’s a demographic issue more than it is a monetary issue
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
It's very cultural
It’s just more popular to whack a rock in a sock with a stick in the Dominican Republic than in inner city Atlanta, or Los Angeles. Smart investments mean investing money where you’ll get maximum return. It’s no wonder they invest money in Latin countries where baseball is a big deal.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions
I think I'll leave this conversation as is. They are going cheap.
Baseball abandoned the inner cities years ago. They went to Latin America because they could get players for less money.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I suppose how much each side acted as the cause and effect is debateable
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Well, there were no articles celebrating the success nationally of Happ or Hudson
The SABR slant against Ubaldo is a response to the near-daily articles from every outlet about how awesome Jimenez has been. There was no need to provide a counterargument to Happ/Hudson, because no one is losing their heads over how awesome they are.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions
“”http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20100628&content_id=11686916&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb" >Hudson has vaulted himself into an elite group that one day may include Strasburg."
Is Hudson a better pitcher than say, Hiroki Kuroda or Tim Lincecum? And yet you see him making the All Star team over those two. I don’t know, I think some of the effort that’s been spent reiterating a point on Jimenez that keeps on getting hammered into us should be spent on a player like Hudson, who’s definitely getting overrated by fans and the public.
That’s fine, but those are SBNation Atlanta articles
Those are expected to have a homer type slant. They don’t have near the power a front page USA Today article does. It isn’t mainstream. Not even the SABR community has time to peruse the internet and slam against each homer site’s lovefest for their players :)
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions
are you calling me a homer
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
Except for when it relates to the Nuggets
Then you’re a hack
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
got it
I’m finally starting to figure myself out
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
One is, one's an mlb article which isn't much better.
National press on Hudson compares his resurgency to Liriano, it also compares him to Strasburg, nothing indicates from anywhere that his season is anything short of complete dominance on the same level as these pitchers.
The national press on Jimenez was rightfully wowed by his ERA and dominance at the start of the season, there’s no reason they shouldn’t have been, but in case you haven’t noticed, those articles have died, but the SABR attacks have not. Wouldn’t the baseball fan public be better served if the SABR community focused on a pitcher like Hudson? Why are they still going after Jimenez, why are they rooting actively for his downfall?
I think this is a completely fair question.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
because these people didnt see jimenez coming
and therefor it must be a farce or luck or some other explanation because God knows all baseball follows some type of Sabr numbers or else why would the numbers be so pleasing?
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Jul 4, 2010 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Except that anyone watching Jimenez for 2 years DID see this coming.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
right
and anyone east of i-25 probably had no idea who he was before this year
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Jul 4, 2010 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions
apologies Roxgirl
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Jul 4, 2010 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree. He showed his mettle in 07
when called up, and pitched in the WS. 08 was a waste for the entire team. Has he not been the winningest pitcher since June 09. I disagree he’s been unknown.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I live east of I-25 by about four miles
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I got confused with the linkfails
Still, one MLB.com article doesn’t match the massive mass media lovefest for Ubaldo, so we can’t expect the same equally opposite reaction from the SABR leagues. I don’t see how race has anything to do with it.
As for why they are still railing him, I’m sure it’s because suddenly Johnson does have a better ERA than Ubaldo, so the downfall is still relevant. I suspect it will die down if everything levels off.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
The thing is still that the "massive mass media lovefest"
for Ubaldo wasn’t that out of sorts compared to what he was accomplishing, and in regard to his win total, whether lucky or meaningful or not, what he is still accomplishing. The fact is this is stuff that hadn’t been done for a long time and as the chase got deeper into the season, it drew interest, rightfully so. When George Brett and Todd Helton chased .400 deep into the season, they drew media interest, and rightfully so, and they were getting just as lucky as Jimenez in making those runs. Don’t complain about the media giving Ubaldo love for something he was deserving of. This isn’t some A-Rod sneezes sort of NY hype, Ubaldo was legitimately chasing history. I’m not complaining about some SABR rattling when it came to tempering expectations. That’s not where I’m saying the issue to look at is, it’s the degree of this rattling and it’s the active prejudice against Ubaldo’s success. We have to figure out where that prejudice is coming from, and I know we both agree that there’s some there, but while you say it’s in no way related to his race, I’m saying that I can’t rule that possibility out.
Nowhere did I say the lovefest for Ubaldo was not warranted
It surely was. And I read every last one of those articles. And enjoyed them.
But it’s human nature to suspend belief of someone going from a virtual nobody to “best pitcher ever” in two months. When there is SABR stats to point to that supports that suspension of belief, they are surely going to take it. It’s obvious enough to have been easily forecast. It seems far more likely than race, given no one has had any issue with celebrating guys like Satchel Paige, Fernando Valenzuela and Pedro Martinez.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions
i dont know if its racially motivated
i think its more their numbers werent translating to what was happening on the field and they were super concerned and angry about it. now ubaldo has come back to earth and they can cheer that their numerical systems are correct
The only color problem facing Ubaldo is pitching
for a team that dons purple. If Ubaldo is wearing Cardinal Red, Marlin green, or Mariner aqua, Yankee pinstripe,
he’s lucky factor magically becomes talent
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I'm not sure that Seattle or Florida really get special treatment
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Okay, fair enough,
If Ubaldo was wearing any other color that purple and black is my point. He’d be far more respected.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
shrug, I guess I just disagree
And he’s plenty respected by everyone not in the full-fledged SABR camp. I can deal with that.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions
the saber crowd isnt anti-rockies
it seems to me that they were rooting for their numeric systems to be correct, not rooting against ubaldo personally
Precisely this
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Felix Hernandez, Josh Johnson
Both are far more respected pitchers by the community at large than Jimenez.
by Greg Stanwood on Jul 4, 2010 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions
What "community" are you referring to?
If it’s the SABR community, yeah, probably. Outside of that, Ubaldo has had plenty of love in the press this season
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions
I acvtually don't agree with this assessment.
The mainstream MEDIA has shown love for Ubaldo. People around baseball, just regular fans, really haven’t. As you know, I read a lot of community interaction online. People have been complaining about Jimenez a full ton or two. In fact, the ONLY people I ever see defending Jimenez anywhere, whether it be at the lowly ESPN boards or at more sophisticated forums, are Rockies fans.
by Greg Stanwood on Jul 4, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, the media has shown a lot of love
I’m guessing many fans are reluctant to buy into him being a super stud though and are counterarguing against the Ubaldo revolution.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Pretty much.
It’s more of a backlash than anything, but the last pitcher who experienced this same sort of backlash, this widespread was Zack Greinke. Felix Hernandez and Josh Johnson get nothing but love.
If you look at the ESPN boards right now, every Jimenez thread is basically anointing ailing Josh Johnson as the true pitching overlord of the NL.
by Greg Stanwood on Jul 4, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Felix and Johnson didn't take such a dramatic jump from good to elite
They’ve been slowly working their way into fans’ heads over a couple years
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
That's as good an explanation as any.
But it still means, it seems, that the community at large, as I said, is not listening to the media when it comes to Ubaldomania.
by Greg Stanwood on Jul 4, 2010 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
WTF?
How did the word “ailing” get in there?
by Greg Stanwood on Jul 4, 2010 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
You're being prescient
because Johnson will fall apart. His numbers are unsustainable.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
I saw you replied at that Fangraphs article.
Isn’t it just ridiculous how an article complaining about snubs can snub just as easily?
by Greg Stanwood on Jul 4, 2010 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Incredibly ironic
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
As it pertains to this comment
Dave Cameron said Matt Belisle was the last pitcher left off his All-Star list. The inclusion of Belisle in All-Star consideration would be absurd most anywhere else.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Ubaldo was pretty white in that Boston game...
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions
Ahh, but he came away with a no-decision :P
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
And he struck out 10 and walked 0. That's like an infinite K/BB
So it was impressive
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions
I wonder where Maria is today? Oh right Nathan's Hot Dog eating contest is underway:P
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
am i reading that mlb story correct?
chris young of the padres is an allstar? i hope thats a typo and its really chris young of the dbacks
chris young of dbacks
Get better Tulo....time to rally around each other and hang in there until our Mr. everything returns
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 4, 2010 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions
good thats what i was hoping
the mlb story has a major typo then
Yeah I noticed that
I mean, he had a decent start in April, but that’s hardly rationale to make him an All-Star centerfielder ;-p
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm in favor of laying waste to the NL
I’d rather cut an ugly-looking swath through the NL’s records for the remainder of the season than see Rockies at the All-Star Game.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
looking at the all star selections its fun to bitch about them even though i know its meaningless so...
i think everyone that the players voted in was worthy, the fan voting was mediocre with molina and heyward undeserving, and manuel’s picks were just terrible.
omar infante, michael bourn, and ryan howard should not be on the team. there should not be two pirates on the team. joey votto not making the team is a travesty and he does need to get the extra spot even over cargo. replace infante with zimmerman, bourn with uggla, meeks with oswalt and since heyward isnt going to play put josh willingham or cargo onto the team.
unfortunately molina got voted in so we cant replace him with olivo
The problem is that its NOT meaningless to the players or to the actual game now.
Remember it determines home field for the World Series. Manuel is not fielding his best team by leaving off Olivo.
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
Don't forget contract bonuses for being selected
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I did forget! thanks for that reminder
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
No current Rockies have All-Star bonuses written in
They are used less frequently than I thought, but they exist
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 4, 2010 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Well, if you take out Meeks, McCutchen goes instead of Heyward
Have to have a Pirate. And unless I misread the horribly written article on MLB.com’s site, McCutchen didn’t go.
oh i was thinking matt caps was still a pirate and they had 2 reps.
meeks can stay then
blame the fans, burned 1 of the 2 spots on Molina
had McCann won the voting then Olivo would have made the team. Im pretty sure of that
These rosters are a joke. A freakin JOKE
/begin rage
OMAR INFANTE?!??!?!?!??!? THE SAME OMAR INFANTE WHO’S WAR IS LESS THAN ERIC HINSKE ?
List of players who should’ve gone but aren’t, at the moment:
aul Konerko
Alex Rios
Brennan Boesch
Michael Young
Adrian Beltre
Kevin Youkilis
Jered Weaver
Andrew McCutchen
Joey Votto
Billy Wagner
Carlos Marmol
Roy Oswalt
Jayson Werth
Heath Bell
Mat Latos
/end rage
MINOR LEAGUE CONTRACT
(just kidding)
I wonder what it feels like to work in a real police department...
Denver.SBNation.com
that's kind of surprising
Ubaldo Jimenez: Saving the Collective's Bacon
Brad Hawpe: Will pickup the slack for Tulo's bat
Todd and Troy: Get moving and get well soon
Quitter's People United Member #4, Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy!
in regards to the olivo stats...
look at those jumps on slider and changeup. wow
Is that four tacos in your pocket, or are you just happy to see the Rockies scoring 7 or more runs?
He's already about 15 runs better in 2010 on those pitches
and we’re only halfway through the season.
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