Monday Rockpile: Winning beats the crap out of Losing - but should we have traded, anyhow?
So after a completely disheartening 8 game losing streak, the wave of losing finally broke and has given us what hopes to be the beginning of a nice steady upturn that at the very least puts us back in some semblance of winning ways. The thoughts from some are that we are done, that the losing streak put all 8 nails in the coffin of the 2010 season, and that anything we do here is just death throes. There's some who think that the losing streak was just the conglomeration of the bumps and bruises of baseball all rolled into one horrible road trip.
We have 2 more games at home, and as it stands, the worst we can do is finish at .500 ball. Sweeping the Giants at home would probably give us some solid momentum going into the road trip, and that would be for the absolute best, because this road trip WILL be the make-or-break of this season.
Another thought process is that sitting pat at the deadline was a sure sign that the organization has decided the season is finished. That by not acquiring somebody of the caliber of Roy Oswalt or Adam Dunn, the team just doesn't have the oomph that we need to really be taken seriously by our division rivals, who all made moves to improve their organization.
Is it possible, though, that sitting pat at the deadline IS a way of improving the team without making a move?
Think about it this way, and a lot of this will be reiteration of yesterday's Rockpile, but darnit, I want to write too.. The Dodgers moved Blake Dewitt, James McDonald, Andrew Lambo, along with a large amount of other minor league talent to acquire one big rental player (Ted Lilly) and 3 players (potentially) under 2011 control (Octavio Dotel, Scott Podsednik, and Ryan Theriot). Granted, McDonald may never really pan out, and Lambo is still a ways away, but this could leave them with a lot of question marks past this season (for example, if they don't resign Lilly, they still have that rotation spot as a question, not to mention the fact that Hiroki Kuroda and Vicente Padilla will be free agents). They sacrificed a decent chunk of the future to make a big push for 2010, and this looks very much to be a "window of opportunity" move, if you consider the McCourt's divorce and financial insanity.
The Rockies, however, aren't in that same spot. We don't have any massively glaring NEEDS to fill. We still have the best rotation in the NL (per Fangraphs WAR), 2nd best bullpen, and a top-5 lineup. The gloves could use some work, but that's also assuming that UZR is to be trusted. Any moves we needed to make weren't really feasible and weren't guaranteed to improve the club. The obvious position to address would be 2B, but when you think about the fact that Ryan Theriot might have been our best potential acquisition, I'm not too horribly excited about trading talent for a guy who very well might not even match our current production from the position (Ryan Theriot wRC+: 74; Jonathan Herrera: 72; Clint Barmes: 80; Eric Young Jr: 97), and that's not even factoring in the fact that our current gloves far outweigh Theriot's.
We could complain about the hole in the rotation that seems to move slots every week or so, but even then, we have a potential replacement pitching 90 minutes down the road in Jhoulys Chacin (if our hands are really forced). Nobody was willing to give us a good return on Aaron Cook, and there's really no urgency in trading him.
When you consider Brad Hawpe as being one of our primary trade chips, we're somewhat thrown back in time about 2 years, when Todd Helton's career was in jeopardy due to his trick back. Garrett Atkins was retained as the potential incumbent, but he proved to be unneeded. The difference between Hawpe and Atkins is that Atkins was on a steady decline since 2008, and the holes in Brad Hawpe's 2010 have been mostly injury-related. He's posted nearly a 1.200 OPS the past 7 days, and while that can't really be something to stand on too securely, it's something to think about - maybe he is adjusting to the position and finding a new groove to fit into. Not moving Hawpe basically gives us a guaranteed #2 option if Helton proves that it's time to hang 'em up.
Moving Joe Beimel or Randy Flores wouldn't have been a guaranteed success, either. Teams love them some left-handed pitching, but not enough, apparently, to bring back a return better than the guys we already have roaming AAA. They are inexpensive and are team-friendly players, so trading either of them just for the sake of trading them seems completely pointless.
Allow me to recap and summarize: We didn't move Hawpe because there wasn't a good return offered and we have no idea what's left of Todd Helton - a 1B-go-round circus wouldn't help the team. Moving Cook would be a blatant salary dump and probably be a rough move as far as clubhouse/player morale goes. Nobody would offer anything real for Beimel or Flores, and they're pretty cheap anyhow, so why not just keep them? Acquiring Ryan Theriot would have cost us warm bodies for somebody who probably wouldn't outperform anyone we currently have.
So while we missed out on the glitz and glamor of the trade deadline, we also didn't break up the 2012 rotation or put ourselves at a disadvantage as far as our own depth goes.
Couple of links post-jump
Rockies' Fowler could land on disabled list || Jim Armstrong, Denver Post
A quick beat-sheet from Jimmy Armstrong. Dexter Fowler MIGHT hit the DL, after sustaining hip and rib contusions while robbing Alfonso Soriano of a game-tying home run. He could get a precautionary X-ray/MRI today. We'll have more when we get it.
Armstrong also mentions that the team is 3-0 with Clint Barmes in the 2-hole.
Finally, this nugget:
Your eye-opening Carlos Gonzalez stat du jour: According to Stats LLC, he is the only left-handed hitter to hit for the cycle solely against left-handed pitchers since Stats began recording the data in 1974. CarGo hit for the cycle Saturday night, including a walkoff homer in the ninth.
Rockies "six-tool" Gonzalez briefly takes NL batting lead || Irv Moss, Denver Post
While Joey Votto has already retaken the lead, it should just be noted that Carlos Gonzalez is pretty much awesome.
Fun fact: Carlos Gonzalez has more hits in fewer plate appearances than Votto. Cargo is hitting at a .300 H/PA rate, while Votto is only at .273. Shows how much a 13.8 BB% beats a 4.6 BB%. Hey, Carlos: Take a freaking walk sometimes too, it'll help inflate that average a bit!
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a lot of this will be reiteration of yesterday’s Rockpile, but darnit, I want to write too..
Me too. Tune in at 12 for the NL West Report
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 7:39 AM MDT reply actions
yay my favorite.
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
Denver.SBNation.com
your work is okay too ;-)
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
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well
if she would do the minor league updates (outside the pebble reports) like she said she would when the new crew were “hired” last year I wouldn’t complain at all.
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
Didn't you see her last tweet?

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
I don't follow twitter
this is good to see though
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
Check the date
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
2009
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
yeah, that was her last tweet...
14 months ago
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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Denver.SBNation.com
Typical...
A lot of the marketing journals n’ stuff that I get all make the same point on social media…you’ve gotta stay on top of it for it to make any kind of impact (if that’s the goal), and staying on top of it yet keeping in relevant is A LOT OF WORK.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
which confirms
my original point
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
Nice Work.
I like your point, and agree with, that the Rockies made more of a statement of “we’re in this thing to win it” by not making any moves. Outside of making a long shot deal for a big name, any move this team made would have been viewed as breaking up the team and giving up on the season. Especially coming off the long roadie.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
I agree wholeheartedly
Making a move just for the sake of making a move does nothing but assuage the egos sports columnists who don’t actually know anything about sports. The Rockies aren’t concerned about slobbering a Kiszlapop, they’re concerned with winning games and series, which is exactly what the team should be worrying about.
The Dodgers’ moves are pretty much a wash, in the end. The Padres are really the only team in the division that appears to have actually improved themselves, but the moves they made aren’t moves that were even available to the Rockies.
And if Hawpe continues to rake, I’d rather have him at 1B right now than Dunn, anyway.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Agreed
plus my feeling is that aside from the Cliff Lee and maybe the Oswalt deal, everything else people did was unlikely to really swing their season one way or another.
It seems that way, doesn't it?
I don’t know if I’d call the Dodgers a straight up wash, because Dotel gives them some setup support as Sherrill was scuffling last I checked, and Broxton is getting all blowed up from over use. Not that it would hurt my feelings or anything.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
The Dodgers definitely improved their pitching for this season
but I still am in shock at the price they paid.
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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Did the DBacks get anything as good as James McDonald for Haren?
I know he’s not top gun, but I’d rather have McDonald over Saunders right now (the K/9 and BB/9 in the minors are pretty good, same for FIP).
I thought the Dbacks gave Haren away as a tax writeoff
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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One of the greatest tax writeoffs I never knew about
is relocation and job search expenses. Resume paper is expensive.
I'd rather have McDonald over Saunders too
Skaggs could be a gem, though he’s a long ways away. Otherwise, not much there. But Daniel Hudson for Edwin Jackson is a good return
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
I think you're underrating the moves Colletti made towards improving the team this year
Ted Lilly>>>Monasterios/Ely and Dotel will help. It’s hard to say their 25-man roster didn’t get better. Though the trades themselves were pretty bad…
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions
I thought of their 5th rotation slot as if we were starting Omar Quintanilla at 2B all season.
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 8:14 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
A Dodger fan tried to convince me they were fine
Because Ely’s xFIP through 3 starts was within a few points of Ubaldo’s.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Wow, Ely looks pretty good, I'll be honest
didn’t realize, I thought they were still running some sort of Elbert/McDonald thing
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions
but see if I'd payed closer attention to NLWR....
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Only 2 1/2 more hours!
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions
OMFG!
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Ely was good through his first seven starts
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions
But in his last seven
HE gave up 28 ER in just 33.2 IP, 22 K’s and 17 BB’s. Scouting reports/beginners luck probably caught up with him
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Sounds about right...
So pretty much the time I decided to add him to my fantasy roster.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions
to be fair, it's neither the first nor the biggest mistake you've ever made
so you have that going for you
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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Denver.SBNation.com
There is SO much truth to this statement...
you have no idea.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Things I've missed due to being out of town in the past calendar year:
Tulo’s cycle
Ubaldo’s no hitter
12 run inning
Cargo’s cycle
I was at Spillyslam 09 though, that kind of makes up for it.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 8:14 AM MDT reply actions
Got a good dosing, should be good.
got a ton of crab in me too.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Not to be confused with
“I got a ton of crabs on me”
Good to have you back.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
I didn't say one was exclusive of the other.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 8:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Game 163 is still all sorts of awesome though
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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This is the truth
watching something after the fact because you know something awesome is going to happen is not nearly the same as something awesome unfolding live before your eyes.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Unless, as Muzia says, it's an instant classic.
But 163 is like watching Duke-Kentucky ’92, or Boise State-Oklahoma ’07, or whatever. Its importance transcends the inherent negatives of replay.
Ubaldo’s no-hitter is another that is re-watchable, but not immediately after the fact.
But watching the cycle, or the 12 run inning, is something I’d rather accomplish in highlight clips or something more succinct.
Instant classics are an interesting case, because you usually don’t realize the instant classic aspect right away. I think you have to step back and take it in a little bit.
Game 163, I wasn’t sitting going “this is an amazing game, this is incredible.” I was more involved in the moment and what needed to happen for the rox to win. It wasn’t until after that we were sitting around talking about it that it started to sink in.
Something like the 9 run walkoff 9th was incredible as it happened, but I don’t think it would have the same rewatchable staying power.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions
it doesn't. I tried.
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
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I agree with this assesment.
Oswalt sure would have been nice, but apparently he wouldn’t even waive his no trade clause for Colorado. Lee of course would also be nice but other than that, looking at what was available, there wasn’t really much in our price range. Maybe Cantu would have been a nice pickup, but that is about it.
Nice for what?
The only thing Cantu would have provided is depth at “players with the name Jorge”. I think we take for granted (and I’ve been just as guilty as the next) of how versatile and valuable Melvin Mora has been for this team. At some point in time we’ve got to acknowledge that the guy is hitting the ball. He’s not fantastic at either corner, but he’s also not OMG WTF at either corner. Obviously he’s not a great option at 2B, but Tracy et. al have shown to trust him enough to slide him there late in games due to double switches and whatnot.
Cantu is not this player. He hasn’t hit well for at least a month now and he’s weaker defensively than Mora as a back up corner infielder.
While I firmly believe you can never have enough Jorge on your roster, the Rockies made the right move by staying away.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
by The jDub on Aug 2, 2010 8:35 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
especially since he cost the Rangers two pitching prospects
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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but that was mainly because the Rangers couldn't add salary so Florida picked up the bill
my guess is he would have been cheaper for us prospect wise.
that being said, im glad they didn’t go after him as well
Rec'd.
Someone finally compliments MelMo besides me.
28 days until my first Rockies game!
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 2, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
When O'Dowd took over in 2000...
and during his first few years, he seemed to ‘force’ trades and chase things that weren’t there. I don’t know that standing pat now was any sort of ‘statement’ on his part but I do think it reflects a level of maturity that if the universe didn’t offer up an obvious upgrade, O’Dpwd didn’t flail away at a pitch in the dirt.
Kinda makes you sad the Dodgers face a very uncertain future doesn’t it?
Go Bruce!
O’Dowd didn’t flail away at a pitch in the dirt.
So O’Dowd>>>>>>>>>>>>Barmes.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Aug 2, 2010 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions
How's O'Dowd's defense? Who would we move to put him on the roster?
Sorry, still caught up in trade deadline fever. Anyone want to trade lunches with me?
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
depends
I have a ham and cheese sandwich, an apple and a fudge round. What do you have?
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
jrockies has the win today
Dammit, I got nuttin’ but a debit card
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Smoked Brisket
That I spent 10 hours smoking yesterday.
The lack of Seth Smith's beard is irrational
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #π
Done did my brisket at The Rib House on Saturday
Seriously good BBQ.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I am crestfallen. I wanted to kick Giant ass today.
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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Just find a giant ass
and then kick it.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
she needs it to count 3 billz
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
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spoken like a true idiot.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions
His name is Huge Jassole?
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
or Hugh Jassole
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Aug 2, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Please repeat
I am sofa king wee tar dead.
The lack of Seth Smith's beard is irrational
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #π
haha what is that Al Pachino movie where he screams out "cause shes got a BIG ASS"
is it any given sunday?
yeah thats it thanks
gerat movie that i havent seen in a while, need to rewatch it
and often
And Bumgardner? NOM NOM NOM overrated
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Fanpost question
I posted a Fanpost at BtB, but it isn’t showing up. Any idea why? I had this problem here once too, and gave up writing them.
Check
your “Mange FanPosts” link and see if it actually published. Could be a ghost in the system.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
There is a lot of mange in the fanpost section, believe you me.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions
We have
an auto-detect feature for mange on the network.
How blamb’s got by is beyond me.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
eh, you can do all the auto detecting you want
but a good brushing and inspecting is the only way to be sure.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
blamb's work could only be described as the awesome kind of mange
like what a feral cat with 3 legs contracts
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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by Muzia on Aug 2, 2010 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Manage*
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
Huh. It was still listed as "Draft".
Thanks for the info.
Oh, in advance of the New Belgium tour....
Tried a couple glasses of their new Lips of Faith entry, Belgo IPA last night. It is seriously good.
And as I’ll be the one driving back from Ft C, I will seriously not be drinking it on the 14th.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
you can have a few
we’re stopping by Big City afterwards
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
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Well, maybe one
That Blogo is 8% ABV….
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I must be involved in this
Big City RULEZ
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions
i never was on board with the big s****y burrito while i was up there.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
You have bad taste
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions
agreed
Big City is amazing
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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No it’s not.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions
maybe not when you're covered in crabs
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
Denver.SBNation.com
and mange.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Is it < or > than any of Dogfish Heads IPAs?
The lack of Seth Smith's beard is irrational
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #π
Have you tried La Folie, Eric's Ale or Abbey Grand Cru?
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Only the La Folie....liked it
I haven’t come across the Grand Cru, but I suspect I would probably love it
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
It is thrice as good as Abbey, which is a fine brew in itself.
I’ve only gotten it on site at the Brewery.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm a bit fan of Abbey, it's my favorite of their "regular" brews
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Or, joint favorite with Trippel
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I really can't disagree with either point
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions
The Abby is good...that's the only of the three
that I have partaken in.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
The funny thing about New Belgium, at least for me...
….is that their most famous beer, the one that put them on the map, and their most ubiquitous…
….is also my least favorite and their most overrated. I really do not care for that one….
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
It was a fine year
I remember those days, back in junior high
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
1554 is pure win.
And I really like DFH 120 minute. So the New Belgum IPA must be really good.
The lack of Seth Smith's beard is irrational
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #π
I'm fine with 1554, but it's a wee bit heavier than I really love
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
IAWTC
Fat TIre is just tired!
LoDo Magic, The Ghost of Tulo's Mullet or Seth Smith's beard - call it what you will but it is neither unimpressive or unsustainable!
Funny Story
So the Mrs. and I got a date night to a local steakhouse. I had a Fat Tire to start things, because all they had that was remotely close was Shiner. When I was about to order another, the waiter stopped me.
“So, you like dark beers?”
“Sure.”
“Cuz the thing is, the Fat Tire people have another beer that’s a little darker, but it’s really good.”
(Knowing he’s talking about 1554) “Sounds good!”
“It’s not on the menu, but we have it in the kitchen.”
/nodding implying ‘bring it out already!’
“It’s called 1554. Would you like to try that?”
“You bet! I’m familiar with 1554.”
Eric's Ale is the best beer ever!
Besides New Glarus Belgian Red.
LoDo Magic, The Ghost of Tulo's Mullet or Seth Smith's beard - call it what you will but it is neither unimpressive or unsustainable!
I dunno, jDub, this Blogo is at least roughly = 90 Minute IPA
But to be fair, I so rarely drink Dogfish Head
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I'm not up on the terminology...
What do you mean by a 90 minute ipa?
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Refers to length of the boil time of the wort in which the hops are continuously added.
Dogfish Head offers 3 IPAs: a 60-minute, a 90-minute and a 120-minute
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Notorious Hat Liar
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
I have yet to have the 90 minute.
A really good friend of mine gifted me a 6-pack of 120 minute a while ago. Good stuff.
The lack of Seth Smith's beard is irrational
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #π
Dogfishhead is pretty damn good at what they do.
But have you tried anything from Ommegang? It’s straight from the maker’s mouth.
Never even heard of it
Anything like Ummagumma?
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Not familiar. Is that from Charlie & the Chocolate Factory?
But Ommegang is brewed in Cooperstown, NY, so it counts as baseball related.
Their Three Philosophers (a quad) is as close to beer perfection as I’ve ever tasted.
I don't know if beer discussion counts as OT because of the huge following of brews on this website
but consider taking it OT if you think it’ll be a longer conversation
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Ummagumma is actually...
….a Pink Floyd album. Or double album. Or triple album, I forget.
And with that….sliding to OT before AMart’s banhammer bashes my chainmail
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oh I really don't care
I just don’t want more “HEY WHY DO YOU LET PEOPLE GO OT ITS TURRIBLE GET THAT ANDREW GUY ON A LEASH” emails
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions
You really get these?!?!?!?
Oh, please to be cutting/pasting.
I can’t believe folks would take some of the stuff that seriously, especially on an off day
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Yeah,
we’ve both received them.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
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Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
How many complaints have your received about me?
Just curious.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
None.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
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hard to slow tha much momentum
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Mondo
have you tried Urthel Hop-It? Another Belgian IPA.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Aug 2, 2010 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm not sure I've heard of that one
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Urthel in general is awesome.
LoDo Magic, The Ghost of Tulo's Mullet or Seth Smith's beard - call it what you will but it is neither unimpressive or unsustainable!
Where does it come from?
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Either one of them to the NLWR?
/snap
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/is reading the NLWR
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
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/finished reading NLWR
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
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you've now accomplished something AMart will never even start
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Fair assessment?
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Okay it's definitely more than a 5 minute read
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions
“/is reading the NLWR” means I was already reading it when I made the comment.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
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talking about a guy
who is in the process of reading 50 different books. He can probably read fairly quickly
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
It's down to 15 . . . I think.
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but how many have you ordered
and are expecting in the next week?
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
OK, OK.
It just went up. I received two in the mail today, and one of them I actually need to review for a journal.
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last week's?
It’s already 12 (well, Nova Scotia time, or whatev…)
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staff can read scheduled articles before they post
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Quit bragging
Or barging.
el oh el
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I can't read it either, fwiw
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Is that because the Row doesn't put out a huk'd ahn fonix edition?
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This week's.
I saw ATF’s grades for each team at the trade deadline.
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I overheard this snippet while at work this morning.
Essentially it’s this:
Fowler = Devon White.
Is this accurate comparison? I don’t really remember much about White.
Ubaldomania.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 2, 2010 9:51 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
That has been the popular comp for him for a very long time
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
I think this is a fairly reasonable comp
But only from eyeball tests….someone else would have to do actual stat analyses. But from my recollection, yeah, very similar
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Gonzalez
is the only player to have an all left-on-left cycle? This is impressive
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
I hadn't realized that
Saturday was so much fun
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my Cubs friend had an extra ticket and offered it to me last minute
so of course I had to go
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What kind of Cubs fan
Can’t find another Cubs fan to take to the game?
This whole “Cubs friend” thing stinks afoul…
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
him and his sister are Cubs fans
his wife is a Rox fan. Since I grew up with the guy, I get an invite
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Holy cow
I didn’t even realize. I mean, Gorzelanny and Marshall are no Santana and Wagner, but sheesh
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 2, 2010 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't know if that's as impressive
as raising your batting average almost 15 points in 3 games in July though. Wow. I wish he would walk more.
There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit. ~Al Gallagher, 1971
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
JFK
on the road, yeah
I want him swinging as much as possible at home. He murderssssssss the ball at LOLCOORZ
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When are we going to start getting more hit f/x data?
I suspect that Cargo hits the ball on average harder than anyone.
OT: HOLY CRAP
the new Arcade Fire record is goooood
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do we need a thread for beer and music
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Just sayin'.
There can never be enough bytes devoted to beer and music
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seriously, this arcade fire album is fantastic
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What's the name, is it on Grooveshark yet?
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comes out tomorrow, NPR has a free preview of it
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is this because I'm a hipster
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it was pleasant enough
I’ve seen the name around but never had heard it before. Thanks!
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Go Rockies.
And that one is low and outside, Eldred takes it for ball four.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 2, 2010 10:32 AM MDT reply actions
Not in entire agreement on the trade deadline
As I think a reshuffling would have made more sense for 2010 and 2011’s sake. My judgement on O’Dowd’s 2010 work will be reserved until after the waiver trade deadline, but I’ll go ahead and make my point:
To me, the Rockies’ deadline seem more like an avoidance of tough decisions than it was a pat on the 2010 team’s back. I’m not speaking specifically on a Hawpe or Cook trade, but more clearing out space to get looks on ML ready talent while adding roster flexibility. With Helton coming back, a failure to move Mora means the team will have 3.5 1st basemen on the roster, and only one real infield backup. Moving Mora would allow Nelson to become the primary backup at three spots, but instead, Herrera is the catch all at short and second. The more he dips below a .300 BA, the less useful he becomes, giving the Rockies less value over having a guy like Nelson to play matchups on a nightly basis.
Likewise, in the bellpen, not taking even a 4A player for Flores is a missed opportunity at a chance to improve the club with Matt Reynolds. Instead, the bullpen is still stuck with no LOOGY with punchout stuff, and limits it’s overall versatility.
I’m not saying either is a failure yet, as waiver trades can happen at any time, but not opening spots for these two is, in my opinion, a big mistake. Giving them August PT would go a long way in figuring out their 2011 roles, where September call-ups reduce the sample size and allow some bias based on facing inferior ML call ups.
by David OhNo on Aug 2, 2010 11:03 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
Speaking of which
Heyman’s waiver trade candidates.
Ellis is moderately interesting, I guess, but there is a lot of dead money on that list.
I keep seeing D. Lee on these lists
isn’t he a free agent after this season? Am I crazy thinking a team with a 1B need might claim him if the Cubbies tried to sneak him through waivers? Like SF, maybe?
If he’s a FA after this year, I’d even love to see us put in a claim on him. If we didn’t already have the world’s largest collection of 30 something LH first basemen, that is….
Bazinga!
by Junction Rox on Aug 2, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
That was my first thought
but somehow talked myself out of by trying to remember things as far back as yesterday. Thanks for the correction.
In that case, I really would love to see us claim him. But the 1B logjam probably still makes it out of the question…
Bazinga!
by Junction Rox on Aug 2, 2010 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
also we're fiercely committed to Hawpe
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Part of the logjam
We all know Todd gets a chance whenever he comes back. They’re committed to Hawpe (and so far I’m liking the results of giving him a look there). And Giambi isn’t likely to go anywhere.
But with the current construction of this lineup, it’s hard not to think that a RH 1B with some power and a slick glove would fit in VERY nicely. I understand why it’s not likely to happen in Colorado. But it still seems to me it’s reasonably likely there is somebody out there who wouldn’t mind claiming him on waivers…
Bazinga!
by Junction Rox on Aug 2, 2010 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
at this point, I think we need to see Reynolds with the big league staff. He's likely better than Flores and Beimel has been scuffling lately
Have we found out why Nelson hasn’t played in a week? Anyone?
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Can we trade Herrera?
I suspect now would be selling relatively high, and it would free up a spot while potentially getting a prospect of some promise in return?
I doubt it
I mean, we could, but he’s basically young, latin Ryan Theriot without at least 1 good season to point at as rationale
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah but the odds are he's not going to have one good season
Because he’s too limited as a player. Glove-only middle infielders seem to be becoming more and more unfashionable – we should hawk him when his BA still looks pretty, his wages are still appealing and when we can demonstrate he’s been a key part of the team’s success.
the debate then is how key is he really to our success
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Exactly
We know he’s not very key, but others may not see that, therefore we can get more back in return.
Not now
He wouldn’t clear waivers.
by David OhNo on Aug 2, 2010 11:27 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
not gonna disagree on Mora/Flores
but with the bigger names, getting a terrible return is kind of a slap in the face to everybody involved, including the fanbase.
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree
Both could still be in play this month. I wouldn’t mind keeping both, but Hawpe brings a litany of budget issues to be resolved, in terms of player budget and draft.
by David OhNo on Aug 2, 2010 11:25 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
unless we can think of a "better" 1B option
I don’t think we have a choice but to keep him.
If there wasn’t that whole draft pick comp thing, I’d say look into Derrek Lee.
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions
The fanbase is slow to react to the changing needs of the team..
For instance if it was up to the fans we would be paying M.Holliday a cajillion dollars for the same production as Little Pony.
Last year no one wanted to see Seth supplant Hawpe and now Smith is leading the outfield in OPS.
Nelson and Chacin should be on this team.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 11:33 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
By fanbase, I assume you mean the commentariat of the Denver Post sports section?
There were definitely Holliday cheerleaders over here, but opinion on the keep him/trade him front were varied, and opinions within the trade him front were also varied (such as those wanting a return of Ludwick plus pitching from the Cardinals instead of the A’s deal).
Can’t disagree with the conclusion that Nelson and Chacin should be up (add Reynolds), but little thought was given to roster construction. They must think the rotation and infield will be fine until roster expansion in September.
And the odds of Cargo equalling Holliday's production by 2010?
I’d say 10/1 and that’s conservative. You are full of the joys of hindsight.
There were 49 no ones that wanted Smith to sit last year..
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 11:43 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Read the comments, there and other places.
For one thing, the number of voters completely dwarfs the number of commenters in the story, so you have no idea why those people want Hawpe in the OF over Smith.
Also, Smith was putting up his first year of major league data, that poll was run in the middle of a pennant race, and people were really exaggerating Hawpe’s second half decline. The points about defense are irrefutably valid.
Further, you’re saying “last year…” like the off-season never happened. Search “Smith” in any number of regular commenters’ profiles (except SDCat) and you’ll find calls for Smith over Hawpe going back over the winter to last summer.
Putting some dollars to this:
If any of the above mentioned names were traded, here’s what would be saved over the remained of this year and the life of the contract:
Cook: $12.92M (includes $.5M 2012 buyout, doesn’t factor money Rockies send with Cook)
Hawpe: $3.14M (includes $.5M 2011 buyout)
Mora: $449K
Beimel: $299K
Flores: $229K ($264K if reaches 60 games)
Assuming half of the salary is absorbed for Cook, that’s still $10M off the books for this year and going forward. The Mora/Beimel/Flores total seems like pennies individually, but adds up to almost a million, which makes a difference in the off-season. Add in, as David mentioned, a AAAA or low-level C prospect, and that’s a big f’ing deal for replaceable parts.
Then again, if Hawpe is bought out and brought back at $6M/year for two years, the savings will be $3.5M ($.5M buyout included) and the team won’t have to hunt for, or run a platoon of, first basemen.
In purely baseball terms, Cook on the team in 2011 would not be a bad thing
There’s very little chance he won’t be one of our 5 best pitchers, right?
He probably would merit a spot in the starting rotation.
Off the top of my head, I can’t say where the replacement for Cook would come from (assuming Chacin takes JDLR’s spot) and be cheaper in terms of money or money/prospects.
The problem with trading him, to me, is getting the right balance between sending cash and getting back better prospects. Due to his inconsistency this year, and abnormally high walk rate), it would be hard to strike that balance.
My concern is that trading Cook makes the team worse
And this team appears to be borderline. I don’t want to start 2011 less confident than I started 2010!
(this isn’t to say I wouldn’t be pro trading Cook in the right circumstances)
If it led the money for a starting 2B, I'd be good.
I don’t know where that 2B comes from, but I’d be ok with a rotation core of Ubaldo, Chacin, and Hammel, with Francis or JDLR coming back (though, given the cost/commitment to JDLR, Francis).
That's the thing, there really are not many 2B worth putting that money for
I’d really like to see Nelson get the shot next year.
Everyone out there available, or maybe available offseason (Johnson, DeWitt, etc.) is flawed in one way or another that, in sum, don’t make them an improvement over what we’re using now, so why put the money towards any of them.
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The grim 2B market is definitely a caution against throwing money
That’s why I’m hoping for JDLR to dominate and gain A status. I’d love to see a 2B fall into the team’s lap in the draft.
But that won't do anything for us in 2011
Actually, I’d like to see JDLR continue to dominate, and that we resign him for something like 3/27 (yeah, pretty unlikely, but still….)
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I was assuming JDLR gone
which isn’t unrealistic. I know he can be awesome, but the price will just be too steep if he pitches well. It’s a good version of catch-22, as it could help toward the playoffs.
Exactly
I do think if he actually could be signed for 3/27, the Rockies would do it. But if he continues to pitch at this level the rest of the year, it would take 3/33 or 4/42, something like that
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Well assuming that Francis and Hawpe's options aren't picked up
I would consider seriously a 3/30 scenario for JDLR. And I think Cook gets trade in the offseason and we save 4-5 mil on his salary also. 88-90 mil in payroll isn’t unreasonable for a team drawing 2.8-3 mil fans and contending.
Just a couple points
1. I think the club actually picked up Francis’ option (isn’t it for 7.5m? If so, that’s a reasonable price for his performance, and he’s LH. If it’s something like $10m, then I don’t think we do.)
2. What leads you to think we’ll actually be successful in attempting to trade Cook. If his salary for 2011, given his level of performance, is not cost-efficient for the Rox (and it’s not), what makes him attractive at the price to any other team? I’m just a skeptic that there’s actually any takers for him.
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Francis has a 7M option next year
It’s getting picked up
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in my universe, yeah
I suppose we can decline it and try to re-sign him for cheaper, but why take the risk when he’s given us 7M in value as a LHP
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He gets traded and the Rox will pick up some of it.
My guess half. So it is costing the other team only 5mil. Second I don’t know for sure that Francis is getting picked up? I would not pick it up just because he is a lefty. For 7 mil I expect a pitcher who can throw more than 90 pitches. WOuld I love to have him? probably but not for 7 mil. 7mil for Jeff or 10 mil for JDLR you can only have one, you pick.
Randy Freaking Wolf got 10M a year last offseason
why does everyone expect DLR to sign for the same? It boggles my mind
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Just because the Brewers are idiots doesn't make the market
This is the same team the gave Jeff Suppan 12 mil a year. JDLR is good but he isn’t a 12-15 mil a year pitcher.
he's a lefty who throws 95mph
who has shown consistent success the past two seasons. He’s gonna get paid
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How much 12 mil per? if so I take him over Francis
in a millisecond. And after I turn down Jeff’s option it only costs me and additional 5 mil for him. I’m not sold on Jeff longterm sorry. And Chacin/Rogers/Freidrich/Deduno. or a serviceable fifth.
Friedrich after the year he's had? Deduno/Rogers are prob not quality ML starters
and Chacin already has a roster spot guaranteed next season
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I'm not comfortable allowing Francis to test the FA market, that's my point
7M is pretty good market value for a LHP of his caliber, and we aren’t going to find a suitable replacement next year. Friedrich needs another season to work through injuries and get his command back.
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But you have no problem letting JDLR go???
And he’s the better pitcher. I’m sorry but Jorge is a better pitcher. And there is no gaurantee he won’t stay. I understand that we had him under contract. Let Smith pitch again, oh wait he stinks. Fine have Rogers go for a year. But I want the 95 mph lefty that canstrike guys out instead of the soft tosser. I have loyalty to performance only.
I am not willing to pay DLR market prices for DLR
with the young talent we have coming up in the next couple of years, I don’t want to have him signed to a 4/55 deal.
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I agree, but
Without DLR – or a replacement of his calibre – we become a decidedly worse team. How do we make up this shortfall?
If the rotation is:
Ubaldo, Chacin, Hammel, Cook, and Francis, Chacin takes DLR’s place.
It would be a lateral move if everything stayed the same as this year, and I’d hope Cook and Francis have better years ahead next year.
Francis may have a good year ahead of him
it takes time to get the rhythm and strength back.
Cook may be on the downhill slope, but as a GB pitcher, it should be a slower slope. Thankfully, we only have him signed for one more year
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we try to sign him
but we don’t break the bank or give him a lengthy contract.
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With Chacin
Here’s the way I see it…
1. Ubaldo may actually improve next year over this year
2. A full year of healthy Francis at current pitching level is a huge improvement over 8 starts by Greg Smith followed by Francis;
3. Assuming we can’t/don’t trade Cook, I actually expect him to pitch better next year
4. Hammel will be about what he is this year
5. Chacin — will not be JLDR of 2nd half of last season forward….but given the stability/improvement in other four slots, we aren’t a decidedly worse team
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to add:
we are a team based on pitching to contact. As awesome as his 10 K/9 may be, we don’t need that on our pitching staff and we certainly don’t want to overpay for it.
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To be slightly contrary
I like having one guy in the rotation who bases his game on K’s, because the contrast to the “pitch to contact” guys makes his stuff even more effective.
But I agree on not overpaying.
There will be at least one club (I’m thinking the Mets) who is likely to extremely overpay for JDLR this offseason.
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You don't have a "slightly contrary"
bone in your body.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Metrosexual: It's like being gay, but not being into guys.
Chacin and Ubaldo both have "K" stuff
but also force more groundballs than DLR
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If we sign him for 4 years after 2010
Who do we seem him ultimately blocking. If we agree that Francis and Cook are probably going to get bypassed (or have been already), I’m thinking the top 5 rotation candidates ready by 2014 would be Ubaldo, Chacin, Matzek, Friederich and probably Hammel. Not that there aren’t some other guys who could be ready by then, but I’m not seeing anybody who is going to be absolutely beating the door down by 2014 who I would prefer to have there over Jorge’.
But I definitely understand the other side of the argument, too. At market prices for power lefties with good results, Jorge’ would eat up a huge chunk of our payroll.
Bazinga!
I don't see Hammel around in 2014
maybe CBM or Hollingsworth
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This
I see Friederich as actually replacing Hammel in 2012.
I don’t see JDLR blocking anyone, but I do see giving JDLR the contract that he is going to end up getting from someone, as something that keeps us from keeping or signing position players down the road who will be more crucial.
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So if Friederich replaces Hammel
and Chacin replaces DLR, who replaces Cook and Francis, who are probably going to be the first two to need replacement for other than contract reasons? Do we count on both of them hanging on until the Matzeks and CBMs of the system are ready, or are we looking at a FA replacement somewhere along the way?
Bazinga!
CBM is Cook with a slightly better K rate
Friedrich is hopefully a year away and would be > Francis.
Or we just re-sign Francis after 2011 if he continues to pitch effectively
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But Mondo has Friederich replacing Hammel
so he can’t replace Francis too. And I can see the CBM/Cookie comparison, but my question is whether Cookie can hold on until CBM is ready for the rotation at the big league level. I assume we’re talking a couple more years there…
Bazinga!
Now you're talking 2012
Neither Cook nor Francis are signed beyond next year (actually, there’s the Cook option but no way that gets picked up).
In 2012, some combination of Friedrich, Chris Balcolm-Miller, and possibly even Matzek by midseason.
And resigning Francis after 2011 is not entirely out of the question, though not likely.
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Actually I'm talking now-2014
the theoretical term of JdlR’s deal, and what the other rotation options look like for that period. But since you mentioned Friederich replacing Hammel in 2012, there’s probably a little extra emphasis on that….
I’m not sure I love the idea of a Ubaldo/Chacin/Friederich/CBM/Matzek rotation in 2012. Unless one of those last three guys breaks in next year, you’re talking 3 rookies and a second year full time starter in the rotation. o_O At that point I think I’d be more comfortable with a Hammel still in his prime seasons than resigning an aging Cook or Francis.
Bazinga!
I can get on board signing Hammel through 2013
See, that is something I do think we can do for 3/24, or something similar.
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When is he a FA?
That’s something I hadn’t considered. But yeah, I’d expect him to be a lot more reasonable than JdlR, even if he does hit the market. I like him as a younger insurance policy than Cook or Francis while the next crop of kids is developing. Ideally, I’d love to add 1 new guy to the rotation each of the next 4 years. Probably Chacin, Friederich, Matzek, CBM in that order, or flipping the last two.
Bazinga!
This offseason is his final arb year
about 93% sure of that
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I wondered about that
At Hammel’s age, I didn’t think it was a stretch. Now that you mention CBM, that’s probably a better choice. Hollingsworth/Hammel in 2014 is pretty much a coin flip for me tbh. Oh who am I kidding? This whole exercise is a coin flip….
Bazinga!
also you are trying to predict where DLR will be in 2014?
if you had suggested offering him 10M/year 2 years ago, people would have called you freaking insane.
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People call me that anyway
but you have a point. The idea of tying up $14 million per for the next 4 years in JdlR does worry me a bit. As much as he seems to have solidly turned a corner, I can’t totally dismiss the idea of reversion at some point. Big $$$$ have done it to more than a few guys before…
Bazinga!
Plz unpack this a bit
“no problem letting JDLR go”.
No, nobody here, and I mean nobody, believes it would be a good baseball idea to not resign JDLR.
However, you’re significantly underestimating what it’s going to cost to resign him. If Jeff Bloody Suppan can get $12m per, and Jason Bloody Marquis can get $10m per, a LH pitcher who throws 96 and strikes out a batter per inning is going to get a lot more.
Frankly, it’s going to take something like 4 years/$52m to get a JDLR deal done, and no, the Rockies should not tie that much up into JDLR.
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Or 4/55m, as Muzia states
Hell, if someone like the Yankees get involved (say, if Pettitte retires), it could be 4/60m
And no, it is neither a case of the Monforts being CHEEP or an unreasonable proposition to think that committing $15m of a $90m payroll on a single player who will play once ever five days.
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This isn't an either/or question.
There are multiple considerations to make for each player.
Francis: there’s history with the team, his performance this year (coming off a lost year) is pretty good, he only requires one year, and $7M/season for any number of years is a better fit for this team than $10-12M
JDLR: He also has an injury history, the money would mean likely he and Cook would account for 20-25% of team payroll next year, and the length of contract could hinder available spots for the new crop of starters in the minors.
If it was Francis or JDLR for one year, I’d gladly pay the extra $5M for JDLR, but it’s Francis for 1yr/$7M or JLDR for 3-5yr/$36-50+M.
Obviously there is a limt to what you sign him for.
But, I don’t care about history with the team. Many cried when Matt left, yet Cargo may be better. Helton was 20% this year. But you don’t sign him for 12 mil/3 years?? at some point this team needs to. We have 30-35 million to spend next year based on this years payroll. What do you spend it on?
ZOMG MONFARTZ ARE CHEEP in this thread
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3 years at $12m per simply doesn't get it down
If he pitches the rest of this year as he’s pitched from last June forward, it’s going to take $14m minimum to get him signed, and he’s going to get at least one offer in that range of four years or longer.
There is no chance he signs for three years at $12m per unless his performance falls off significantly the rest of this year…and if it does, then no, he’s not even worth that amount.
He profiles as exactly the type of pitcher that some teams way overpay for and get horrible returns down the line (e.g. Perez).
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They aren't cheap not what I said
But I also don’t want a payroll of 65 mil next year just because they can. I don’t sign him for 5 year and 60. But 3/36 with an option I do.
Now why do you think we're going to have a $65m payroll next year
Our payroll has steadily increased every season for the last 4-5 years, and is currently around $81m.
There is no reason to believe that money saved by declining Hawpe’s extension, and the Helton contract kicking in, won’t be utilized in other areas.
But 3/36 simply does not get it done for JDLR, it just doesn’t, and that’s the part you’re not getting. If 3/36 would get it done, I’d actually be on board with this, but it’s going to take a lot more than that. A lot.
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attendance is best in a decade right now
they have money to spend, but I don’t see them locking up anyone for 4 years this offseason.
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Right...
When people say the Monforts are cheap, I hear SMART.
I’ve never understood this. Since when did it become a crime to just get the most out of each dollar spent?
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the two players we CAN and SHOULD lock up
are already locked up. End of story.
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I will gladly take DOD with $80m
every day of the week and 3x on Sundays over Minaya and $140m, or whoever’s running destroying the Cubs.
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So let's address some of the issues and figure DLR is gone
Second is Nelson/Herrera
Cahcin and FA/Rogers in the rotation.
1B ??? as I don’t see Helton after this year.
I think the payroll should be closer to 90mil next year
there's not a single 2B I would pay for in FA this offseason
Hawpe could be a great 1B until Arenado is ready.
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so why spend money just to keep payroll steady
when we don’t have to?
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$20m to Pujols won't get it done
He’s going to get 7 years, $28m per. Easy.
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this is Colorado
if we are paying for FA pitchers, we have to seriously overpay. Don’t forget this.
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This is the one place we separate
Given the widening discussion of stuff like the humidor, Uball’s performance, etc., I think pitchers no longer see Coors as somewhere that requires “serious” overpayment anymore.
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I think this is true to a degree
I also think a lot of pitchers out there would really prefer to let somebody else be the first to try to prove it.
Bazinga!
Yes, but with the respect going Ubaldo's way....
…..it seems he’s being the one in people’s eyes proving it.
Just listen to other players talk about UBall, and it’s clear he’s no longer an unknown quantity in the league.
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Totally agree on that point
I just wonder if there isn’t still some stigma about going there as a FA that even Ubaldo’s success might not totally alleviate. Not saying it’s logical, but then again baseball players aren’t always the most logical people…
Bazinga!
Well, we may not totally be over the hump yet
But no one actually laughs off the idea of coming to Colorado anymore.
The problem is, that doesn’t change the fact that we’re still solidly mid-market, and can’t pay for the Sabathia’s and Wainwright’s. But at least it means we also won’t be giving out 5-, 6- and 7-year contracts to pitchers.
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we paid big bucks once for a couple of pitchers
Not too interested in doing it again. Much prefer to bring them through the system or trade for Hammel/JDLR types who we can bring along.
I don’t blame DOD for the Hampton/Neagle effort. He tried. But it showed the problem with giving big bucks for a pitcher who has already proven himself.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
Also, at the time...
….a LOT of teams were doing this.
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That was also in the
pre-humidoroz era. I think even that deal might work out quite a bit better today than it did then. (especially if Neagle could find a better place to conduct his “extracurricular” activities…)
Bazinga!
I think it would for Hampton, not for Neagle
Neagle was already downswinging by the time of the signing. In fact, as far as I recall, most of us thought even then that it was a bad signing.
Hampton, on the other hand, was exactly the type of pitcher who would have thrived here in the humidor era (if he hadn’t been destroyed by the time the humidor arrived). Heavy hard sinker, GB specialist, yeah.
Think Cook, but like 40% more talented or so.
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Yeah, Hampton was the perfect fit
at the wrong time. Hard to tell how his arm issues would have evolved around here, but in a more neutral environment (humidor), he would have been a great signing.
I don’t remember being excited by Neagle, or particularly opposed. The contract did same very excessive even when he signed, though.
And then there is the sad case of Darryl Kyle. I’m not sure he would ever have been a good fit in Denver.
Bazinga!
I think Hampton's later arm issues....
….had their roots in all the changes he made here to try to get his sinker to keep sinking. So, in effect, coming here ruined his arm (eventually).
As for Darryl Kile, yeah, beyond the tragic end to his life, I never thought he profiled as the right type of pitcher for here….so sad, though. He was extremely well liked everywhere he went, and a good pitcher, as well.
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I remember hearing the news of getting Kile
I was driving down I-76 to Sheridan and heard the news about when I hit Federal. The guy on the radio was absolutely giddy the Rockies had a pitcher that could “throw a curveball that could break on the moon”
I was so upset – I knew who Kile was – one good season and begging for never finding an adequate release point when alternating starts between home and away games. I was so furious I was in Golden before I figured out I had missed my turnoff.
His tragic end aside, I really hated the fact the Rockies tried to bring him to Denver to try and validate pitching success in Colorado.
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Why do you see $90m next year?
Sure, I see it as possible, but not a fait accompli, and certainly not $100m by 2012.
$10m a year increases aren’t sustainable forever in this market, and we’re already $10m over what we were last year.
Anyway, if Helton does retire, I actually envision the club picking up Hawpe’s option and installing him at 1B next year, so that’s $10m right there.
I don’t see Rogers in the rotation. At least I hope not…he’s really not that good. We’ll have to see what FA’s are out there…not opposed to signing the right one, but not signing just for the sake of signing one.
And like Muzia says, there’s not a single 2B in FA this offseason whose worth signing. Definitely Nelson next year, and maybe just maybe Barmes as super sub, if not Herrera.
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I don't pick up Hawpe's option.
If you can retain him for less, as I think he only gets DH offers, then fine. But you can get a lot beter player for 10 mil than Hawpe IMO
But can you get a lot better player than Hawpe
For only one year at 10m?
Not sure about that.
Dunn wants like 4/40, probably not a good deal at that rate.
The reason I sorta like Hawpe at 1B next year is that the difference between him and someone like Derrick Lee isn’t really that big, so not much of that $10m is wasted, and the contract is over after next season.
On the other hand, if we could get Derrick Lee….
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Do you see Konerko hitting the market?
Or do you sign an Overby type for a year or 2. If we can sign Hawpe to a 3 year extension for 5-6 mil a year I keep him and use that time to bridge the gap
5-6M/year?
maybe for next year if he continues to struggle. But that number is awfully low
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I don't sign Overbay at all
Konerko…I could live with, but
I think Hawpe would possibly be amenable to resigning, but would probably take $8m a year. Seeing as we have no one in the pipeline, I could actually see Hawpe being a roughly $8m player (with the ability to actually play above or below that), but if he wants more than two years, I don’t see it happening.
Konerko….well, here’s the thing
His performance this year is a lot better than it has been the two years previous. And he’s 34.
If the next two years, he’s like he was when he was 32-33 (which is more likely that a repeat of this year), then he’s actually no better than Hawpe, and will likely cost more than Hawpe, because of this year. So I’d kinda like him, but I wouldn’t pay more for him than I would for Hawpe.
Konerko’s having a bit of a renaissance this year, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to carry into next year, and he won’t be signing a one year deal. In fact, he’s having a career year this year, OPS-wise…no reason to assume he can repeat it.
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Plus you have that "contract year" thing with Konerko.
The Overby was a one year thing. 2years 15 mil and I keep Hawpe
Yes, this
Though I think I do so even at $16m or 17m. Not 100% certain.
But if I do that, I’m equally okay with picking up the option, and then seeing where we’re at in a year.
This is all predicated on the Helton situation. No way do I pick up the option for Hawpe to play in the OF next year.
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We are drawing better this year than last
Maybe it stays at 84-85 but I don’t want a drastic decrease
Only in the abstract does the team have $34M to spend
I’m not sure where the Cargo thing came from in this thread, but yeah, I’d put some money into signing him to a reasonable deal that gets the team through a FA year or two (but that’s unlikely with a Boras client).
Hammel, Belisle and Stewart will go to arb. There is the issue of who will play first if Helton is not read, and there is the issue of Francis and DLR’s spots costing money to fill. Those three things will eat most of the ~$25M left over after the arbitration raises.
If everything goes to plan, maybe there’s enough money to sign Francis, DLR and Hawpe (to play first) and maintain payroll, but who knows.
I like how you used the term 'reshuffling' David..
Everyone else is calling it a fire sale as if we would be giving up on the season. I call it ‘trimming the fat’.
This is the first year I can remember when a rookie wasn’t given a chance to succeed.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 11:56 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
who is this everyone else
we are all calling it fat trimming too
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions
I heard fire sale in the pod this morning.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 12:05 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
You're a stuck record, Charlie.
Herrera and Chacin – 184 PAs and 82 IPs respectively. That’s a decent chance, no? Chacin, as you well know, was sent down for roster reasons, and Herrera is still up.
So Chacin was given a chance?
Even though he’s pitching in AAA? HE’S LEADING ALL NL ROOKIES IN K’s!!! (for Pete’s sakes).
Herrera was first called up in 08.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 12:08 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I refer you to the answer I made earlier about roster requirements
But yes, he was given a chance, made the most of it, and is now a shoo-in for the 2011 rotation. Please, stop making a martyr of him.
I'm advocating the Rockies play their stud rookies..
So they can be a better than .500 team and make a run towards the playoffs. Are you saying they would be better off standing pat? Are you hoping Barnes will popup less and Cook will revert to 2008 form?
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 12:52 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Where in the Rockies history
has rookie trumped mediocre player making lots of money?
I believe Joe Koshansky would have made a name for himself if that was always a given for the Rockies.
Carlos Gonzalez
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 1:10 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
he didn't replace a higher paid player at the same position though
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Precisely
Teams just don’t do that unless extraordinary circumstances arise (and injury). The added reality check is that the Rockies have both Hawpe and Helton, who could combine to make a really nice first baseman if that sort of thing was possible, along with Aaron Cook accounting for $33.1M of the payroll.
The problem with them is that a) Hawpe couldn’t bring back decent talent, b) Cook is providing more value than what the team would get back plus the money they’d forfeit while moving him, and c) Helton is immovable and uncuttable.
You have a good point on the Barmes-Nelson thing, although you’re not the first to make that case.
Mora, Beimel and Flores could have been moved with little effect for 2010 and 2011, but the effect of moving Cook and Hawpe is likely negative to 2010’s depth, and I’m not sure what the impact would be on 2011 except that, at best, the team would probably make, at best, a lateral move to fill Cook and Hawpe’s roles (and saving money is not guaranteed).
Sure, Chacin can come up this year, but if there’s an injury in Aug or Sep who goes into the rotation and will be as good as Cook?.
And, sure Hawpe could have moved and the impact would have been negligible for 2010, but who starts at first in 2011 (assuming Helton’s back is not getting better)?
yeah but Hawpe for next year is
or should be, and independent decision of Hawpe for the rest of this year, since we are most certainly not picking up his option, thus allowing him to test the FA market.
Deacs you just pointed out he Rox would save $13mil by dealing Cook..
Who did you think was going to replace him? You’re arguing for both sides. Get off the fence.
As far as Hawpe and Helton are concerned; read my fanpost. By the end of this month I have a feeling we will all be lamenting the poor offense generating from first and second base.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 3:20 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Wow, lamenting the offense from first and second?
I disagree about first, but whatever. What I said about Cook:
Cook: $12.92M (includes $.5M 2012 buyout, doesn’t factor money Rockies send with Cook)
The money the Rockies would have to send to make a Cook trade worthwhile is a huge negative, and it begets another negative. Francis and DLR are not at the peak of health, and Ubaldo has been used pretty heavily. Regardless of whether the Rockies are in a pennant run, there is a strong chance that the rotation will need someone to fill in over the next two months. After Chacin, there really isn’t a replacement ready. So, to move Cook and plug Chacin in, you leave the rotation with no depth. That’s dangerous.
I think the team realized this and will sit on Cook until the offseason
Then move him and send 6 mil with him.
The depth issue still exists next year
and is even more urgent with Chacin going into the rotation next year, and none of the young pitchers having shown they’re ready to step in.
I don’t see how spending $6M for Cook not to pitch for the Rockies benefits the Rockies, when they’re going to spend at least $6M for a replacement of Cook’s caliber. That’s $12M spent just to move Cook for a return of questionable value. The return will be better in the off-season, but I don’t know that it’ll be enough to merit paying Cook to pitch somewhere else plus paying someone to take his spot.
Charlie hasn’t even identified what the team should get back for Cook, so I don’t know why he’s all wound up. I agree with the idea of auditioning players for the spots of Mora, Beimel and Flores, but after that sometimes fat keeps you warm.
It pays Francis salary if you want to keep him
Which would free up 10 mil(Francis7+JDLR 5) to get someone for a year.
A 10m one year rental isn't going to get us any better
That’s Ben Sheets or Jason Marquis, and look at what they’re doing at this point in the season.
If you’re going to turn down the Francis option and trade Cook, you need to have an actual plan that has a basis in likelihood of actually taking place.
It’s a lot easier to just say “trade Cook”, without having to come up with a realistic plan of what you actually do next.
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If we trade Cook and free up 6-6.5 mil
I have no problem keeping Francis. And it can be a 5 milrental or use Rogers. I view Chacin as Cooks replacement so we need to replace DLR.
That still leaves you a starter short of a rotation.
If I understand you correctly, the rotation would be: Ubaldo, Hammel, Chacin (for Cook), Francis (for Francis?), and [open spot].
Thus, you haven’t saved $6M, and could end up spending more for inferior production.
Well Chacin makes nothing and the money you saved
Half of Cook’s salary plus 5 mil you are paying DLR this year gives you 8-10 mil
You’re double dipping on JDLR. There’s $34M pre-arb dollars to spend to get back up to this year’s payroll. JDLR is not included in that.
After Belisle, Stew, and whoever else get raises, there’s probably $24M left. $7M to Francis leaves $17M. $6M to trade Cook leaves $11M. So, there’s $11M to deal with a spot in he rotation plus Hawpe. That’s not going to get you someone who is better than Cook.
You seem to like tearing people's ideas own Deacs..
How would you solve this issue?
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 4:08 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Glass houses, big guy
You said:
Who did you think was going to replace him? You’re arguing for both sides. Get off the fence.
I’m not trying to get all balls out because we’re on the internet. I wouldn’t make an argument that I wouldn’t make in person.
The deficiency in your argument is that it will cost as much money to replace Cook as it will take to pay him to play next year, and it will deplete the depth of the rotation this year and next.
You can call it “tearing down people’s ideas” but I’m wondering where the answers are from all the questions raised by your earlier insistence that Chacin should be in the rotation.
Again, you’re right about Nelson but the team has handcuffed itself through poor roster construction.
For the record..
I’ve never said Cook should be traded. I said Chacin should be in the rotation. I’m fine with Cook in the BP like Fogg in 07.
I’m still waiting on ‘your’ solution.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 4:27 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Fogg was in the rotation in 07, not the bullpen
So if you don’t think Cook should be traded, expect him to be in the rotation.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
You're right..
I should have said Taylor Buchholz, 41 games pitched and 8 games started.
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What solution?
Cook can stay and give about the same performance as Chacin this year. Then, he’s either traded in the off-season, or he, Chacin and Francis fill out the non-Hammel/Ubaldo spots in the rotation next year.
If he’s traded (which I doubt), then that’s an answer I don’t have a question for because I think it’d be a waste of resources without a B prospect coming back to the Rockies. I wouldn’t put the money into DLR, and I’d rather Cook stay, fill out the rotation next year, and have one of the young arms be ready to take over in ’12.
We don’t really disagree, except to say that I don’t think it’s a bad thing to have Cook in the rotation right now. I would like to see Nelson up now, but having kept Mora and Giambi around prevents that until roster expansion. Herrera could go down, if that fits for you.
The only thing I disagree with is the idea that you’re the lone ranger arguing for Seth Smith and “trimming the fat.” There’s just not a way to trim the fat on this team without doing some dangerous plastic surgery that could leave the team in bad shape for next year.
Except for the easy stuff that could have been done: move the LOOGYs and Mora.
Correct.
I think that’s the most economically efficient rotation, unless some offer comes along for Cook that provides a B prospect with minimal money going the other way.
or we can get DLR for 3 years or less at an affordable rate
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
WHEN CHICKS HAVE HOT FRIENDS AND THERE MIGHT BE MORE THAN ONE HOT FRIEND DUCKS FLY TOGETHER
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On a one year deal via arb,
yes. The potential is worth the $7M or so, as long as whatever would bog down his price this year wasn’t a serious problem.
But he's not arb eligible this year, a straight FA
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
everyone seems to discount the possibility
that JDLR might actually want to stay here. We gave him his real chance and he seems to like the town/club/teammates. Not saying he’d leave a ton of money on the table but he might be willing to give a bit of a hometown discount to stick around. Just another thought.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
Maybe
The question is, what is the hometown discount. If anyone does go so far as offer 4 years/$52m, then even 3 years/$33m won’t likely get it done.
I am pretty sure he’d like to stay, but he may also see this as his one chance to get that generational altering contract for his family (after all, he’s been discarded by 2-3 franchises previously), and may not want to take any chances that he’ll be in the same position down the road.
Or at least, that’s what his agent is going to be telling him.
I don’t think there’s “zero” chance we get him back…I just think the odds are probably no greater than about 35% at this point. But that’s hardly negligible odds, so there’s reason to hope.
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who is his agent?
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
I haven't been able to locate that
I’m sure it’s out there, I just don’t know it
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That depends
Literally. It depends on the deadline to pick up or decline Francis’ option, vis-a-vis the deadline to resign one’s own free agents.
In a perfect world, yes. But I don’t know that the Rox have that luxury, under the specific dates applicable.
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If his performance falls off a bit....
but not too much, then I think yeah, we do want him (talking JDLR here), because with his stuff, and the fact he has demonstrated performance now (unlike when he was with his previous clubs), there’s reason to believe he’ll get it back.
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Yes, this is our most likely rotation for next year
Can’t totally rule out JDLR, but it’s very unlikely.
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So you've given up on this year and you're looking to 2011?
I like Beimel he’s done his job and fits the teams personality he’s also cheap. I’ve said for awhile Flores should go. I like Mora in LF he’s not a problem.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 2, 2010 6:24 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Eh?
There’s a difference between “giving up” and recognizing the likelihood of the situation.
Beimel can actually get us something in return, but he never makes it through waivers now. Not sure what you’re even asking now.
If you’re suggesting we keep all three guys in 2011, I think that’s possibly a wack idea at this point.
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That was directed at Deacs..
First he mentioned the benefits of trading Cook and the money it would save. Then he said:
I don’t think it’s a bad thing to have Cook in the rotation right now.
Personally I would like to see Chacin in the rotation. Fangraphs rates his WAR at 1.6 slightly ahead of Cook’s 1.3 rating. Chacin also has a lower ERA, WHIP and a higher SO/9. Chacin will only get better with experience and could help this team this year. Cook is on a downhill trend and should be used out of the pen.
ERA
Chacin 4.04
Cook 5.08
WHIP
Chacin 1.312
Cook 1.535
SO/9
Chacin 9.7
Cook 4.2
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You’re picking and choosing responses from multiple threads stemming from David OhNo’s original comment.
I neither think it would be bad to trade Cook or to keep in the rotation, but the former is highly unlikely to happen. There was a caveat included in mentioning the money saved from trading Cook, and that caveat negates the value of trading Cook as I have said ad nauseum. The one place where Cook doesn’t go is the bullpen, and since he’s not getting traded he’ll stay in the rotation.
Obviously Chacin is a good pitcher and is ready for the rotation. Cook hasn’t pitched nearly as poorly as his ERA indicates, and while the WHIP is legitimately bad he had a good month in June and his peripherals in July were the best of any month.
Using Cook’s SO/9 against him is ridiculous. If anything, since trading him is highly unlikely this season, it means he should stay in the rotation and Chacin should be up in the bullpen.
I get what you’re saying, and you clearly get what I’m saying, but try to understand the context in which my comments are made.
In some situations, trading Cook would be right; I don’t see any of those conditions existing right now.
Chacin would be an upgrade, but then what to do with Cook? No bullpen and no trade. I don’t know. It’s more complex than: he said it’s this way, then he said it’s that way, he’s riding the fence.
I'm not trying to provoke you..
but you say Cook should continue starting and I think Chacin should start. The Rockies are only 5 games above .500 which means something needs to improve. Cook is the worst starter in the rotation. I don’t see his numbers improving. Chacin has good numbers, he would help this team win more games.
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So you DFA Cook, thus guaranteeing the rest of his salary?
That’s an awful lot of sunk cost, about $12m worth, to not have someone pitch.
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Dude..
For the record..
I’ve never said Cook should be traded. I said Chacin should be in the rotation. I’m fine with Cook in the BP
Although he’s going to be placed on waivers. But Deacs is right that we need him for starting depth at the very least. Just like we needed Kip Wells in 2008.
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Good comp
You know a lot about baseball, especially using that really cool SO/9 and WHIP to compare incomparable pitchers, and mentioning Kip Wells in the same breath as Aaron Cook.
Yeah, he’ll be placed on waivers and no one’s going to take him. Maybe Philadelphia before Halladay, but not now. And I doubt the Rockies would allow him to go within the division.
Remember what rotation depth did in 2007?
When Cook went down, Ubaldo was in there and Morales came up to take the spot.
If there had been someone around in ‘08 to provide real depth, perhaps Francis wouldn’t have had to pitch through pain and disastrous results.
Wow, I thought we were getting along..
until that sarcastic personal attack. If you remember Kip Wells was our opening day starter in 2008.
So you tell me which pitching stat is a better comparison?
Wins
Chacin 5
Cook 4
ERA+
Chacin 111
Cook 88
SO/BB
Chacin 2.34
Cook 1.18
FIP
Chacin 3.78
Cook 4.62
AVG against
Chacin .232
Cook .288
WAR
Chacin 1.6
Cook 1.3
If you need help understanding what any of these stats mean then let me know. My 5yr old will explain them to you.
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Ok, I'm a dick. I apologize.
Sorry, I thought the Kip Wells comp was sarcastic. But, now that I’m looking at the numbers, he had a decent April in ’08, including the 4IP in the 22 inning win.
You’re right that Chacin is a better pitcher than Cook, and all of those are evidence of that (particularly FIP and the SO/BB). I still just don’t know what happens to Cook going forward. If he went into the bullpen, it’d have to be in mop up duty which doesn’t help him. A well-timed DL stint and some rehab starts would be nice.
Kip Wells wasn't our opening day starter
Jeff Francis was our opening day starter, and his game got called by rain before it was an official game.
Kip Wells became our starter for the replayed “opening day” game the next day, so that our rotation would not have had to pitch on a day’s less rest.
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The only opening day
roster that counts is the one from the game that got counted. Kip Wells was the opening day starter.
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
I get that, and in an ideal world Chacin would have been in the rotation through July. Two things stand in the way, however: Cook isn’t getting traded (because the money, the return, and the need to pay a replacement would be a net negative for the Rockies) and putting his skill set in the bullpen would be a mistake.
It’s a catch-22: Remove Cook from the rotation now, and you get Chacin, but Cook has no trade value in the off-season. Don’t remove him, and you could be sabotaging yourself, but you could also be helping the team (if he improves) and boosting his trade value.
His main problem is walks. That’s uncharacteristic of Cook, and something I think he could probably fix.
Another issue to consider is that Chacin is about 16 innings away from passing his 2009 mark. Will he be as effective once he gets two or three starts past that number? IDK. I wish his 1.88 ERA since he was sent down had been in the rotation for the past four weeks.
Fair enough
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You keep assuming there's someone who will....
….both take Cook and take on $6-6.5m of his salary for next year.
That’s not a solid assumption, really.
And if we go into next year with Rogers and Chacin in our rotation, we’re a 78-82 win ballclub. Rogers is not a ML starting pitcher.
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BTW, who exactly...
….would take Cook and pay $6-6.5m of his salary next year. What teams out there would actually do it?
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Well if you need to pay more than 6 mil to get a team to take him
You keep him I guess. When Suppan gets 12 mil Cook can be a bargain at 6 mil
The Suppan contract was signed in the winter of '06
Teams are a lot more cautious now. Randy Wolf was actually pretty good from ‘07-’09, though three years was unnecessary.
All I’m saying is that to get Cook’s production back (and get a decent prospect back) it’s going to take giving up $6M at min, and paying out at least $7-8M, making the proposition a net loss for the Rockies.
Cook is at $9m or so next year (plus his option buyout)
The $6m was predicated on us even kicking some money over to the team picking him up.
Hence Deacs’ argument, we’re probably better off just keeping him, because we probably can’t replace his actual performance for $6m
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rock beats everything, right?
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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What beats everything is...
….what #17 did at that moment.
How to be a pro baseball player, if you’re in Casper….do whatever #17 does.
Anything else can only hurt the ballclub.
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This is what happens when...
white people try to do that handshake with the fists bumping thing.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
I'm white.
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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not mutually exclusive
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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Actually I just wanted to say that.
I have an agency that I work with that targets the “urban market” (read: black), and right on their web page: The African-American Market, who, while you were sleeping, began to eat Thai food, surf, drive SUV’s, listen to Faith Hill, stay at the Ritz, and vote Republican, not to mention dominate the PGA tour…but who occasionally still listens to Aretha Franklin and do that handshake with the fists bumping thing.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Wow, that's pretty bad
Using Tiger and Michael Steele as the face of black consumerism.
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Well, it's been a while since Tiger's "dominated" the PGA Tour
And calling the success of one man (no matter how big that success is) the equivalent of the “African-American market”, and given the paucity of blacks actually involved with the Republican party, the fact that one is their chairman doesn’t really mean a whole lot.
I’m all about inclusion, but to me, those analogies do not speak to inclusion, but rather the exceptions
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I don't know if I really want to get into this...BUT...
It’s not about “one man’s success becoming the equivalent of the market”…It opened up A market to a demographic that previously wasn’t interested. Using Tiger Woods as a poster child for young, urban hipsters, is probably overgeneralizing, but if he created the interest in the sport (and all the marketing peripherals) it then becomes “how do utilize his success to capitalize on a demographic for our customers and their products.” Conversely, how many companies associated with golf have aligned themselves with Tiger to make their products more attractive to the “urban market”? No right or wrong, just sayin’.
As far as Republicans…paucity might be a bit overstated…er…understated? There are are a lot more Republican blacks than given credit for. It’s because they are SO quickly dismissed as being exception/uncle Tom/scarce that they bristle at the idea that they SHOULD be liberal simply because they are black.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
I know, this is getting wickedly offtopic, but........
I actually don’t disagree at all with the proposition that Tiger’s golf success has opened up the marketing potential for golf to the urban market. That said, I think the real issue here isn’t developing market interest as much as it is market access. It’s all well and good for Titleist and Callaway to advertise on BET, but it seems to me that actual access to golf is probably still woefully short.
As far as Republicans go…I’m not a Republican and don’t attend Republican events, so I can’t offer any facts (and won’t really presume anything). But I do recall that the 2008 Republican National Convention had something like 2-3% of their delegates who were black. So to me, that still pretty much the exception.
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Well, it did say "began to"
not that it’s representative of the whole population. But personally I think it’s good to recognize that we’re talking about a culture that’s becoming more diverse and shouldn’t be stereotyped. Would it be better if the agency advertised its’ expertise in marketing fried chicken, watermelons and malt liquor??
Bazinga!
by Junction Rox on Aug 2, 2010 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Hell no
I’m not suggesting that at all. I’m just saying there’s probably a lot more valid analogies to draw than to the PGA tour and the Republican Party, given that each has like one actual public face.
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Totally agree on the PGA tour
as for the GOP, they said blacks are beginning to vote Republican, which is really a proposition that doesn’t require any public face at all. I haven’t checked to see if the stats support it, but I can accept it as a possibility.
Bazinga!
by Junction Rox on Aug 2, 2010 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I would doubt the stats support that
Having moved here from DC, where the Dem candidates get roughly 90% of the vote…..
I think the Republican Party certainly was starting to make inroads until Tea Party types started taking over the agenda.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I don't follow how either of those points
indicates that blacks can’t be starting to vote Republican. Nobody is saying 90% of them are doing so, just that they are doing so in greater numbers than before.
Bazinga!
by Junction Rox on Aug 2, 2010 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
DL likely for Fowler, Helton could be activated
Renck: http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15659494
You can allow chicken to a barbecue and it can still taste awful.
Does anyone know if his catch #1 on SC?
Tough break for Dexter considering the weekend he had.
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
It was the leading vote getter by far on espn.com this morning though.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
They shouldn't be related
Swapping Fowler for Helton really diminishes the versatility of this roster, but this is all too convenient, and as I stated earlier, the front office prefers the easy decision.
by David OhNo on Aug 2, 2010 1:23 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
You know as well as anyone that it's just a trial
if Helton is done for, he retires or something and Fowler is reactivated.
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
with as bad as Hawpe
was feeling they might not reactivate Fowler until September because the move would be easier to do then (I hope this doesn’t happen).
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
I don't believe it's that easy
For one, even a two week trial of having only one centerfielder and one MI backup is poor roster construction.
Two, are we really down to the point that Helton’s career will be decided by two weeks of play?
by David OhNo on Aug 2, 2010 1:47 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Spilly is a serviceable CF
and Herrera does have experience in the OF, as does Mora (yeah, I know)
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Barmes and Stewart have played OF too...
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
Doubt it
I’d be amazed if Helton were to retire mid-season. I expect him to play through the season, as best he can, spend the offseason seeing what medical help, if any, there is available, talking to people, etc and making a decision then. People as driven as he is don’t hang it up easily.
If he’s even semi-healthy, he’s going to be on the roster (but not necessarily starting) and frankly for this year at least, the team owes him that much.
I agree that at this point swapping Helton for Fowler makes the roster less flexible, and it would seem to make sense to let Todd continue with his rehab for as long as it’s doing him good, but at least we have the outfield depth to make it possible.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
No matter how loyal and full of integrity Todd is - and I am sure he is both
He has several million dollars of his family’s money relying on him not retiring, so he will give it everything he’s got before throwing in the towel.
does his contract protect him from injury issues? Is there a disability insurance that would provide the $$$?
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
His contract is probably insured
“Probably” because with the previous back issues, it’s possible no insurer would touch the contract.
But that’s irrelevant, because if he retires, he doesn’t get the contract and the insurer wouldn’t have to pay it.
But a retirement would probably involve a buyout of the rest of the contract by the club, probably of around half of the remaining amount, something like that.
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Didn't Bobby Bonilla's deferred contract just kick in recently?
I seem to memmer reading that recently. Nice annuity.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Metrosexual: It's like being gay, but not being into guys.
That is also possible, but that will have to be Helton's choice, not the org's
The org doesn’t just get to say “we want you to retire and we’ll pay you off over 10 years”, because the player doesn’t have to retire if he thinks he can still play.
If Helton actually decides he’s done as a player, then you’re absolutely right, this will happen.
But I don’t think there’s any way Todd doesn’t at least try to rehab/rest/strengthen over the winter and come to spring training, first. Which makes his salary due next season not something the front office can factor in as available money to spend elsewhere.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
The only portion you ahve to spend is the portion he restructured.
Which is 6-7 mil if I remember right. And i’m not sure what happens if he retires before the regular season starts.
Helton has coming to him...
$4.6M signing bonus in 2011 and $6M salary for 2011, with $13.1M deferred to 2014-2023 at 3% interest
plus the $9.9m for 2012-2013
So that’s a total $33.6m, of which over 1/3 is already deferred.
And you’d have to restructure $20.5m of money that comes before the deferred money. That’s a hell of a lot of money to get someone to try to give up, and all the more reason he does not retire this offseason, not without at least trying to come back next year before any buyout talks.
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You don't get it
He’s already deferred $13.1m for 11 years…so why would he do it any further.
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Possibly...
He really might. But there’s no chance he does so before spring training next year, for the same reason. He’s not going to give up without being 100% certain he’s done, and an offseason to heal, etc….
So you can’t count on having any of that money available, during this coming offseason, you have to plan as if he’s here (unless he comes back this month and is reinjured or terribad).
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I don't have a lot of hope remaining, sadly :-(
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Neither do I, really
I’ll never question his desire or work ethic, but as someone who’s injured his back playing sports, and being several years younger than him when doing so…..I just can’t see him coming back very effectively.
That “leg weakness” he has, I know exactly of what he speaks, and it robs your ability to drive through anything.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
This is what I think will end up happening
Unfortunately for our roster construction, we need to make our decisions before that , which is why I suspect we do end up picking up Hawpe’s option, even if it means overpaying for next year a couple mil.
Because it actually ensures having someone who’s demonstrating they can play 1B and has power, even if streaky.
And because Helton will come to ST, we can’t exactly go out and sign Dunn or Konerko, because of the message it sends.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
have you seen his numbers so far this year?
there’s a reason he’s played for so many teams
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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This
I’d rather have Giambi back at $2m then LaRoche at $4m
That said, I do think Giambi retires after this season.
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Just a driveby post to say Unhappy Crestfallen Day everyone!
"You can learn a lot just by watching" - Yogi Berra (thanks to pedalpusher)
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!"
Ubaldo, Tulo, Hawpe and Spilly say "Germans?"
QPU Member #4, NYYHEG Member #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Healing Day!
and it’s a wonderful day. :-)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
I had the worst dream ever.
I dreamt CarGo died :(
And on Purple Row, everybody was all mourning and stuff. It was a horrible, horrible dream. And then my subconscious was like telling me I was dreaming but I couldn’t tell haha, it was weird.
Woke up this morning and realized it was a dream. Whew. :)
28 days until my first Rockies game!
srsly
28 days until my first Rockies game!
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 2, 2010 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh, man
That is awful. I’m glad I haven’t had dreams like that.
Fan of Troy Tulowitzki since 2007
This is R year!
by prettyinpurple on Aug 2, 2010 1:35 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Fowler
Finally caught up with yesterday’s game on DVR and can now stop avoiding PR…
This is now the 2nd time Fowler’s gotten hurt because the Rox didn’t put a game away when they had a chance. The guy shows some serious grit, which is worth sticking with him through a few slumps. I must make a point of remembering this the next time he goes into a slump….
Also, Herrera had a good-but-overlooked play. When he advanced to 3rd on the throw which hit him in the back, he popped up, keeping one foot firmly on the bag until he located the ball and the infielders, then he took off like a shot. Nice fundamental execution which should be a given at this level, but sometimes sadly is not (and hence worth mentioning).
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
That's exactly why I want Herrera around.
He is not doing what he’s done by an extraordinaey skill set. He has succeded in what he’s doing because someone somewhere along the way did an excellent job coaching him. I want him setting an example of how things are supposed to be done. David Eckstien has a WS ring; Ryne Sandberg DOES NOT! Eckstien gets cursed by us for executing the small "stupid"stuff. Let our opponets curse Herrera. When the naysayerser get all bent out of shape by his small OPS and SLG. That’s not his job. Given his skill set I am not unhappy with him at all except when he listens to his detractors and swings for the fences. Given his limited playing time at the big league level I’ll take his 22 runs and fifteen RBI. It took Spilly longer to do that at his age.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
well Sandberg played for the Cubs
no one wins a ring there
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
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The point is Being one of the best 2B in base ball history doesn't garuantee sucess...
There are more Eckstiens of base ball history getting the ring than the Sandbergs. The Consolation prize is the HOF.
The Successful franchises that repeat sucess year in and year out do it by eeking out the little things and and being mostly above average. The Yankees are the exception; and we can’t afford to be the Yankees. (WHO CAN?) The Rox should model them selves after the Dodgers and Cardinals Historical norms. The Dodgers of the Sixties Seventies and Eighties always had more stars than the Cards because their bigger market afforded it. The Dodgers on average were more fundementally sound than everyone but the Cards. That was Branch Ricky’s legacy. It’s Sad to see the Dodgers lose that.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I don't have a problem with Herrera..
I would just like to see Chris Nelson get a chance to play 2B and 3B against lefthanders.
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I want to see Nelson get his chance too...
That’s why I wanted to try Tulo at 1B for a bit and see if it would help the Team as a whole. Nelson also plays SS. (Ducks brick thrown by RIRF)
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
CarGo is NL player of the week.
Ubaldomania.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 2, 2010 2:39 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
road trip or not
he hit .382/.414/.735/1.150 with 9 HR, 20R, 22RBI and 4 SB. This is kind of hard to beat.
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
For the month? Wow.
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Didn't Edwin Jackson pitch a no-hitter?
or was that June :p
On a more serious note – Josh Johnson had a heck of a month for pitchers.
Wyoming baseball --- GO GHOSTS!
Good lord
this Corey Hart deal is crazy. Imagine what Cargo would be looking for in a similar situation one year from FA.
Its like $6 million next year
and then $10 million for his first two free agent years.
that's a pretty decent extension, tbh
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I dunno
I see a lot of Hawpe in that deal. $10 million for a corner outfield spot seems like semi wasted money for a mid market team like the Brew Crew.
Maybe they see him as 1B after Fielder leaves
And the deal is shorter than Hawpe’s, isn’t it? For a player younger than Hawpe was when he signed it?
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
3 years carries very little risk at his age
Both sides win
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Jack Moore?
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At least the Rockies probably won't ever (at least in the foreseeable future)
get him now.
/irrational dislike
he's grotesque
I’m right there with you
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Would 3 year/$24M be generous enough now to give the Rockies favorable option years for the first two FA years?
I'd do that for Cargo in a hearbeat
but he is a little younger and further away from FA. Plus he can play CF.
Three years will only take us through CarGo's arb years
No way in hell does Boras allow CarGo to sign away any of his FA years right now, so it’s a non-starter.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I'd think if the options weren't too team friendly it'd have to be considered
I think he’ll have two years of service after this, so $48M over 5 (3/$24M for the three arb years, plus two $12M options) would be pretty good for both parties.
I thought that would be nice, until I looked through the list of Boras clients and couldn’t identify one person who’d taken slightly more over the arb years to give the team reasonable options for the early FA years (like a Tulo/Ubaldo deal).
Exactly, and that's why there's no point in signing him through arb years right now
Because it doesn’t get us anything.
Now, maybe after next season, after the next CBA, when arb rules are undoubtedly going to be changed. But not now, because other than accounting certainty, we get nothing out of the deal.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I do not think he makes super 2, given when we called him up last year
So absolute worst case scenario, we have him through 2014 and then trade the winter before he hits FA, a la Holliday
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right when he hits his prime
which is scary to think about, considering the season he’s having
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I actually might be convinced that
signing Cargo long term is a good idea after he hits FA. His body type seems like the kind that might stay productive longer than the certain musclebound traffic pylon who used to man left field for us.
But if he develops like we hope he will, I shudder to think about what sort of contract he is looking at. Beltran’s is probably just a starting point.
And Todd will be completely off the books,although i have allocated that mony to Tulo.
And there is no way to predict the economy and other factors by then. He could even change agents by then, anything is possible.
Exactly, too many variables
He could also end up like a Juan Gonzalez and break down, just too far down the road to see.
I’d like to think that we’ll have a coupe more playoff appearances during that time, average around 39-41k in attendance, maybe a 10% ticket price increase in that four year span, and we can keep him even at a Beltran-type contract.
But who the heck knows?
The only thing I do know is this…if we get to his FA year, and he’s still got Boras and is determined to hit FA, then I completely trust DOD to get the same type of return on a CarGo trade that he got on the Holliday trade, thus ensuring our continued successful future with yet another #5 manning left field.
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so was Beltran
look how well that turned out with the Mets
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Considering he put up 19.7 WAR from '06-08,
I’d take a gamble that he wouldn’t turn out to be such a delicate butterfly. He also put up 3.1 WAR in just 80 frickin games last season.
Definitely wouldn’t have a problem with the AAV, but just wouldn’t want to see seven years. Five at $18M, with mutual options/buyouts? Sure.
precisely
but the problem is making sure other teams play ball. If he heads straight to FA, he’s going to take the 6-8 year deal from some schmuck GM and forget all about Colorado. We shouldn’t give out 6 year deals, we’ve learned our lesson.
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Yes, but therein lies the Boras factor again
Assuming continued performance curve, Boras will get Cargo between 6-8 years when he hits FA. And it won’t be four years plus option years.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
it seems we are making the same arguments
Moving in Stereo
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In Ster-e-er-e-o?
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Metrosexual: It's like being gay, but not being into guys.
Well, we see this the same way
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Well if he shows very little drop off I would consider 6years and an option
You have a CBA coming before then and I see some sort of cap coming.
how will there possibly be a cap
the most powerful owners won’t allow it and the cheap owners don’t either.
The Marlins let the Yankees pay for their yearly expenses before they even play a single game.
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Q. Will there ever be a salary cap in baseball?
A. No.
Folks who haven’t actually studied this history of labor relations in baseball should do so.
Making any statement such as “well, they have it in the NFL and NBA” (and I’m not suggesting you’ve said so) can only come from a place of ignorance.
Hear me now, and believe me later, there will never be a salary cap in baseball. Never.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Could you give a cursory background of the history that backs up this claim?
I know a little about the history labor relations, by reading Ball Four and reading a lot about the ‘94 lockout, and I don’t think there’ll ever be a cap. But I don’t know if I’d be comfortable saying it in absolute, never ever terms.
The entire '94 strike (it wasn't a lockout)...
…was due to the owners imposing a salary cap after declaring an “impass” in the negotiations.
To briefly compare the unions for each sport…
Only the MLBPA has managed to ensure all contracts are guaranteed for all players (even in the NBA, only 1st round picks’ contracts are guaranteed).
Every other sport’s union’s members have decertified their unions, for different reasons. In the case of the NFL, their union “leadership” were nothing more than owners’ stooges. In the NBA’s case, the few players making so much more than anyone else (Ewing, Jordan, etc.) were more intent on keeping their max contracts, and they were also the senior player members of the union committee.
The MLBPA is the only sports union to never “lose” a labor dispute.
And unlike the other sports, the MLBPA actually does a great job of instilling the history and purpose of past union actions into current generations of players.
Marvin Miller’s autobiography is probably the best read on the subject. That, and “Lords of the Realm”
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I have it, it is one of my favorite books
Curt Flood is the reason I studied baseball labor relations in college (not as a major or anything like that, just wrote a couple papers).
The Curt Flood story is very complicated, and not just the aspects re his legal fight…he was a very complicated individual.
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I'm like halfway through A Well Paid Slave
that was 6 months ago
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Get 'Er Done
You’re falling behind. It’s like you’re still playing FF7.
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to be fair, that game is all sorts of awesome
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well now that I don't have bus rides to waste time reading on
it’s harder to get through a thick book like that
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Put it this way....
I barely read anything not in a newspaper or on the net anymore. And I couldn’t put that book down at all.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Leaving for the library in a few minutes
just confirmed it’s on the shelves!
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Notorious Hat Liar
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
I still have a hardcover copy, if they don't
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Thank you for the generous offer!
I did get it at my local JeffCo branch, and will start on it tonight.
Kids had to go pick up their free books from the summer reading club.
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
Notorious Hat Liar
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
But serious question:
Your argument leads me to wonder:
Who/what kind of player deserves a 6+ year FA contract from the Rockies (just A-Rod/Pujols type freaks)?
Are 6+ year FA contracts dead for all but the A-Rod/Pujols freaks?
Well Holliday just got one.
And the cap come and revenue sharing goes away significantly. I don’t see a hard cap but a soft cap at 120 mil with a floor of 50mil so teams like the Marlins can’t go 20 mil payroll.
who is going to vote for any cap? serious question.
Rich teams hate it, poor teams hate it, teams with cheap owners hate it
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The players union will never sign a CBA with a cap
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The union is more concerned with aging players
continuing to make money than pre-arb players.
They want older players (especially the highly talented, first year FA-types) to be able to continue to make as much as the market can bear because it feeds their organization’s power and coffers. That can’t happen with a cap.
The min salary has gone from $6k to $400-something k
And the union has not agreed to a cap in that time. Why would going to $850k change that?
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
See my post above, there will never be a salary cap
And the Cardinals are seriously going to regret the last three years of the Holliday deal, when they’re getting Jason Bay-type performance at the age of 35-36.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
What about for the Rockies?
What kind of player deserves a 6+ year deal, outside of the Pujolses and Rodriguezes?
This is a good question
For a team in a market like the Rockies, and with a good farm system, such a deal is basically a “bet the franchise” move, so the short answer is that it’d be someone you’re willing to bet the next 5+ years of your franchise on.
- Obviously someone with the proven talent that would make you consider such a thing in the first place
- Someone who is young enough and you have reason to believe will stay healthy for many years.
- Someone capable of carrying the team mentally
As a GM, if you’re right you have a cornerstone to build around. If you’re wrong, you have a serious albatross dragging the club down for a long time.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
Good reply.
What I had in mind was a player who came up at a bit older age and established himself quickly. Someone like Votto, but at a position of defensive value.
Gonzalez might, by that time, as might Tulo
No pitchers, ever. Not even Ubaldo, not even if he wins 25 games.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
If you are regularly contenting over the next 4-5 years
Those 2 are the only ones I consider it with. But I agree never a pitcher. and certainly not a pitcher over 30.
Tulo and CarGo would be the only two I'd even consider
Tulo is already locked up and I’m not convinced about Gonzalez yet. Not saying he isn’t good, but I wouldn’t bet the franchise on him just yet. Maybe this offseason though if everything falls right. Pitcher? no way. We just have to make the investment in the system to keep developing pitching talent.
You also can’t discount the value of not doing the big contract and having another Holliday-esque trade.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
O% chance Cargo signs an extension in the next 2 years
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Boras clients rarely do deals through arb
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In three years, the Mets will be looking for a Beltran replacement.
Hopefully they’ll have some decent prospects to raid by then.
Unlikely.
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wasn't it just 3yr/24M? Am I wrong?
that’s a decent deal for both parties
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Anyone want to go to tomorrow night's game?
Hoping someone can help me out here. I have two tickets to tomorrow’s game that no one in my usual group was able to use (section 112 of course — way down the 1st base line but still decent lower deck seats). I’d like the seats to be used, but not go to Giants fans. The tickets go to the first person (or first two people if the first only wants one) who replies to this and meets the following criteria:
• must have 100 or more lifetime posts on Purple Row (so I can verify that you’re not a Giants fan — if I wanted to sit next to Giants fans I’d just sell to a scalper)
• must be able to get to the 20th & Wynkoop gate by 6:00 PM tomorrow evening so I can give you the tickets
No charge for the tickets but I wouldn’t say no to a beer during the game. :-)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
Already there in 244
Otherwise…
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Ugh!!! I would so go...:(
I’ll wave to you through the television
"You can learn a lot just by watching" - Yogi Berra (thanks to pedalpusher)
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!"
Ubaldo, Tulo, Hawpe and Spilly say "Germans?"
QPU Member #4, NYYHEG Member #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I'd go...but then you'd prolly have to sell the other ticked to a SF fan.
Cooler than a polar bear's toenails...
Metrosexual: It's like being gay, but not being into guys.
already there in section 142
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
I will take them, ANd buy you a beer. If you don't mind my 8 year old baseball crazy son sitting with us
Sounds good
Should be a good preview of 7 years from now (my son is 1 year old, and not yet baseball-crazy, though he does have a Rockies sippy-cup and points to the baseball on it and says “buh-buh” so we’re on the right track).
Email me at the email address in my profile so we can work out the logistics.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
good to read this
DFowler24
Thank God! No break, deep bruising!! Thank you everyone for your prayers and support! Hopefully be back soon!! Go Rocks! 13 minutes ago via web
Ubaldomania.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 2, 2010 4:02 PM MDT reply actions
Best news I've heard all day
GO DEX! Get well soon!
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
Anyone else
looking forward to Jeremy Hellickson’s debut for Tampa tonight?
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
1-2-3 inning to start his career.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
?
?
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
by Greg Stanwood on Aug 2, 2010 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions
is there something special going on in ashebille?
by Andrew Martin on Aug 2, 2010 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions
baseball
which is not going on in Denver
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
Fowler likely headed to DL
Makes sense after the decision not to send Hawpe to the DL after a similar injury cost the team. This will open room for Helton.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
Yes, accepted assignment 3 days ago.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
by Greg Stanwood on Aug 2, 2010 5:21 PM MDT up reply actions
not only that
but he already has been hitting dingers for the Sky Sox
Wyoming baseball --- GO GHOSTS!
Sloppy play by Asheville
Arenado fielded a bunt that would have gone foul, Carlos Martinez didn’t cover second and the runner advanced.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
Good to see we teach lack-of-fundamentals early...
keep working on that and they should be able to add in a throw into center field so the runner advances to third too.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
It's funny
Pitcher Jonathan Vargas DID throw a ball into CF on a pickoff throw. The runner didn’t see it though, and didn’t advance.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
by Greg Stanwood on Aug 2, 2010 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Too funny
Sarcasm aside though… that reminds me of that play by Herrera yesterday. Felt the ball hit him in the back but still took the time to find it before advancing. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen guys thrown out at 3rd on plays like that.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." ~Earl Weaver
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
boy the Cubs suck
18 runs and 26 hits tonight for the Brewers lol
time to make another run to the postseason....get it going guys!!
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
LOLCOORZ...
wait they aren’t playing in Denver, there is no major altitude difference?
The only difference between love and baseball is a "G."
JFK
They are still hung over from Silva's 'altitude' sickness!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

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