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Around SBN: Are The Orioles Bad Or Unlucky With Their Young Pitching?

Monday Rockpile: Rockies have "big-money players" who haven't lived up to expectations--not surprisingly

RMN had to take a break today from his regular Rockpile as he celebrated his sister's wedding last night.

News from the Rockies

Rockies' big-money players off their game - The Denver Post
What do Todd Helton, Aaron Cook, Brad Hawpe, Huston Street, Jeff Francis, and Jorge De La Rosa all have in common this season? Each of them makes over $5 million and has been on the DL. During the offseason, several of them might have more in common if they don't return to the team. Brad Hawpe is already the first member of that club.

Chacin displays top-of-rotation stuff in victory - The Denver Post
Chacin would be a nice third anchor in the 2011 rotation.

Introducing Team NERD | FanGraphs Baseball
Carson Cistulli breaks down how watchable a team is for sabermetricians. The Rockies are in the middle of the pack, so it could go either way.

News from Atlanta

Heyward, Infante hit two HRs apiece in 16-5 rout of Cubs  | ajc.com
"When the first two hitters in your batting order combine for eight hits, four homers, eight runs and eight RBIs in one game, it's a good indication that things have seriously gone your way."

Rookie pitcher strikes out 12, makes adjustment on fly | Atlanta Braves
"Mike Minor displayed in his first two major league starts the skills to become a solid long-term member of the Braves' rotation."

Cox saddened by Piniella’s sudden retirement | Atlanta Braves
"Bobby Cox had to sense some cruel irony this morning when he heard the news, as we sat in the visiting manager's office at Wrigley Field, that Cubs manager Lou Piniella would retire effective immediately after today’s series finale against the Braves."

Miscellaneous News

Arizona Diamondbacks' Chris Young's heads-up play earns praise from Kirk Gibson
In the middle of this article, Brandon Webb still hopes that he'll be able to pitch this season. Apparently he'd like this to happen in the final game of the season

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Chacin would be a nice third anchor in the 2011 rotation.

Do you mean in addition to DLR and UBall? Or Uball and Hammel? I’m thinking the signing DLR discussion will be second only to the 1b discussion over the next couple months.

The OT: All that AND a bag of meat.

by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 23, 2010 8:04 AM MDT reply actions  

U-Ball and Hammel since DLR is a FA.

Either way, Chacin should be in the rotation next season.

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto

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by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 8:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

I am really excited

to see what Chacin can do with a full season in the MLB rotation.

#11

by Rosenort on Aug 23, 2010 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

As long as he maintains fastball command, he can be great. Not just good. Great. Better than anyone we’ve ever developed (non-Ubaldo division). His slider has become a legitimate put-away pitch and that ability to get the K puts him ahead of the game. It’s all about fastball consistency from this point on – if he finds it I think he could end up in an All-Star Game at some point.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 23, 2010 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

He has found fastball command a lot more than most 22 year olds

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 23, 2010 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree completely. It’s a matter of carrying it through an entire outing. When it slips he gets a little hyper and tries to overthrow and the movement flattens out. Then, when it’s in the zone, it’s way too hittable.

It’s not like he’s got a Moralesian road to fastball consistency. He’s very close which is why it’s so exciting to watch him.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 23, 2010 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Quote from Tracy in the linked article on Chacin

“Mediocrity will not get it done at this point.”

See my sig line, Jim. I’ve been saying it since June, and more succinctly.

Mediocrity sucks

by Maris6161 on Aug 23, 2010 8:23 AM MDT reply actions  

I wonder if Jim thinks he's a mediocre manager?

Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

699-674.

Mediocre if we believe a manager should be judged on that basis.

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
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by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't know what 699-674 means?

Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Career record.

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.

by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

I would say he is Mediocre.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Does he get a discount for managing the Pirates? Something like half off each of those losses?

The OT: All that AND a bag of meat.

by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 23, 2010 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Or has he just had mediocre teams?

And one was flat bad. Two years at Pittsburgh is responsible for 135-189. Lop those two years off and he’s at 564-485.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by pedalpusher on Aug 23, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

But again were they bad because they sucked

or because the manager coulldn’t get them to play.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

If a .509 winning percentage is mediocre, what does that make this guy’s .508 winning percentage?

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 23, 2010 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Lovable?

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.

by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

he has a good personality?

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Heh...

Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Jason Hammel: Unsung Hero
Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)

by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

He’s sure got a mediocre ballclub. If mediocre teams make mediocre managers, then, yep, that’s a fair assessment.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 23, 2010 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Do mediocre managers lead to mediocre teams?

Or vice versa?

Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

No manager is good enough to make chicken salad out of chicken something-else.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 23, 2010 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is an interesting point.

So did Tracy win Manager of the Year because of his players last year or because of him motivating the players and using them in the right way? (My intent is too not pick a fight…I think it’s a interesting notion)

Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

*to

Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

My answer to both parts of your question is yes.

For whatever reason, both the players and his using them in the right way have fallen off the cliff in (especially) the later part of this season.

by Bokosse on Aug 23, 2010 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

Simply put, this is right on

when you are the “most disappointing team in the NL” (my quote, but surely to be followed by many in the national media) its a complete organizational failure, from the FO to the skip to the players. Very few folks are excepted from the blame for this season.

by Teekalong on Aug 23, 2010 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good mornin from the desert of Nevada!
Go Rockies!

I still believe...
This is R year!

by prettyinpurple on Aug 23, 2010 9:21 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

Billy Butler

Just out of curiosity, I contacted devil_fingers, also known as Matt Klaassen, to ask about Butler.

Personally, I think there’s decent incentive. Are they talking a fair trade or what might happen in actuality? Poss. incentive for me is that KC probably won’t contend while Butler under control, unless they extend.
Don’t know the COL system, but real quick, but just about any pitching prospect, and all but top 25 hitters would be fair 1-1
Again, hypo off top of my head. Could be a combo of lesser players — say, 4 B prospects. Butler’s only 24, no decline soon

He really wouldn’t expect Moore to get an even return

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 23, 2010 9:59 AM MDT reply actions  

four B prospects would get it done?

so like Rogers, Deduno, McHenry, Nelson?

I’d do it.

by purplesocks on Aug 23, 2010 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'd make that deal

everyday and twice on sundays

#11

by Rosenort on Aug 23, 2010 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Rockies seem to treat Nelson as a B prospect

I think they’re making a mistake.
He should be playing right now instead of Herrera. Nelson has more upside.
Not to mention better numbers at AAA.

Mediocrity sucks

by Maris6161 on Aug 23, 2010 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

So numbers 4, 9, 11 and 16 on our “Top 30 PuRPs” list. Seem like a bit much.
Then again I am not a Butler fan. Seems like the guy can hit for average but when he tries to hit homeruns he strikes out a lot. Do we really want a 1b who only hits 15 homeruns (yes 40 doubles/yr would be nice) a year?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 10:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I just see all these player as expendable

Rogers is out of options next year i think, McKenry doesn’t project to much of a hitter in the majors, and the orginization seems higher on EY2 and Herrera than Nelson. I like Deduno’s stuff the little bit I’ve seen, but i get a young 1B under team control we will need to give up something or worth.

#11

by Rosenort on Aug 23, 2010 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

It is also worth noting Deduno is 27

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 23, 2010 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Guess

I incorrecly read the list on the right side of my screen. Sorry.

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

I meant age, not PurP number

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 23, 2010 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

Question: why (the hell) is he so high on the PuRP’s list?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

Fastballz!

near MLB ready, with pretty decent stuff. But yeah, for his age he shouldn’t even be on there

/throws SDcat09 under bus
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Everyone

loves a good fastball.
I sure wish understanding minor league skills and translations to major league talent was easier.

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

he was the AA Texas League Pitcher of the Year last year

Had he not gotten injured, we would have possibly seen him at the mlb level. very good strikeout stuff. Late bloomers don’t mean not valuable, but yeah, he was a bit too high on the list

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 23, 2010 11:38 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

but if you look at the ceilings of the above prospects

likely bullpen arm, possible fringe starter/bullpen arm, likely backup catcher, who knows what the FO sees him as…

For a 24 year old RH 1B with some power, I do that in a heartbeat

/throws SDcat09 under bus
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

I understand the expendable part

but I don’t agree with the Butler assessment. What do you consider Billy Butler’s ceiling? Oh and why?
Related note: Some power? Really? Really? I am not a stats guy so I can pick out which stats would accurately describe his power…… doesn’t appear to me he has any relating to his position….. but I am sure one of the PR experts can convince me.

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not an expert

but saying he has to have power that relates to his position is a fallacy. Plus we’re going to get 25-30 HR out of the SS and 20+ out of the catcher’s spot, so that should make up for any “deficiency” out of 1B.

The OT: All that AND a bag of meat.

by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 23, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

put him in a better lineup

and I think you will see his power number go up, I don’t think he has much protection in KC.

#11

by Rosenort on Aug 23, 2010 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Entirely possible

but not sure I would count on it.
Side question. Has he ever had finished with a higher WAR than Helton?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

this year Butler is posting a 3.5 WAR at age 24

At 24 Helton was playing his first full season in the majors with a 2.4 WAR

#11

by Rosenort on Aug 23, 2010 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

And if you compare Butler’s first full season in the major’s to Helton’s?
Also if you are saying his progress going forward will be comparable to Helton’s then I am definitely on board.

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Did you know he's on pace to nearly break the GIDP record?

According to this. He attributes it to high contact rate and hitting hard grounders with men on, plus being slow.

by RoxnSox09 on Aug 23, 2010 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

Fangraphs:
Helton: 3.2 (1997)
Butler: 2.5 and counting (2010)

Reference:
Helton: 2.5
Butler: 3.5 and counting

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 23, 2010 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed

but then why the big need (Butler love) for this type of player. He isn’t a great fielder, hits for higher average with many doubles. Seems like you wouldn’t need to pay much to get that type of player. Would we pay that much for Gaby Sanchez or Daric Barton?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

I was making a shopping list for the organization yesterday

and #1 on the list was a RH bat with 4 hole type skills for 1B. Butler would fill the bill. The only problem is that I expect Helton to return and probably get close to 50% of the starts there (the most I think you can realistically expect at this point). And on those days, I’d like that new guy to be able to take 40 or so starts a year in RF. Butler is definitely not that guy. But if Helton retires I’d be very interested.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

I would like to use your premise above (Helton making 80 starts). Then what do we do? In house options? MelMo type options?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's why I'm thinking we bring in the RH hitter

who can go in the clean up spot and take up most of the 1B starts Helton doesn’t, plus a good chunk of starts in the OF when Helton does play. When Helton sits the bench, we would have Smith, Spilly and EYJ available who could take the third OF spot, at least in what I’m thinking (assuming CarGo and Dex would play virtually every day.)

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

What type of player can the Rockies expect to bring in for a “somewhat” platoon role?Maybe not platoon but not the first choice at 1b. Doesn’t appear to be many options out there.

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's why Butler still has some appeal to me

I just haven’t quite figured out what you do with both him and Todd if Todd returns. Realistically, Todd is still going to get a bunch of starts, and a guy like Butler would just sit and gather dust on those days. Ironically, I think the best example of the type of guy I’d be looking for might be Brad Hawpe, only RH and a little better equipped for the clean up role…

And I don’t know that I’d say the guy wouldn’t be first choice at 1B. More like starting 1B in waiting while Todd makes a (hopefully) graceful exit.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

but neither one of them....

can hit with RISP

Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
His name is Dan Uggla!

by Colsportsfan on Aug 23, 2010 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

rec'd.

8 days until my first Rockies game!

by CentralCaliRox on Aug 23, 2010 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking 5th

Actually, in my mind I think 3rd would be ideal, but I also like CarGo in the 3 hole, especially with the possiblity of stacking a lot of speed in the 1-2-3 holes.

I would just like to see a big, intimidating power stick in the 4 hole. Somebody to really put fear in a pitching staff. While Tulo is a great hitter, I don’t think he’s truly the power profile I want to see there, and I don’t think his game benefits from trying to be.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree, I just don't see Tulo as a clean-up hitter....

Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
His name is Dan Uggla!

by Colsportsfan on Aug 23, 2010 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

I do think he's the best option we have there right now

But the lack of somebody who truly profiles to that spot has been my biggest concern about this team since last season. As well as we did in the Holliday deal, that’s the one way in which we’ve never truly replaced him.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cargo is a better cleanup hitter

high average, high SLG, and we don’t have to worry as much about his low OBP

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

That makes sense

but we’ve all seen his tendency to chase some really bad pitches at times. I have visions of that getting worse with the added pressure of the clean up spot. I could very well be wrong, but those kind of questions are what leave me thinking a true clean up guy is our #1 need, with CarGo and Tulo making a great 3/5 combination.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I also like Cargo in the 5

I don’t know what more people want out of a #4 hitter…both Tulo and Cargo are good AVG/SLG guys, and IMO that’s what the 4 spot demands. 1 through 3 should be table setters with increasing SLG

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

They want Albert Pujols

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

not good enough.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Now you are talking.

Let’s dig up his body – and clone Babe Ruth – I’m pretty sure I can convince him to work for hot dogs…

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

I dunno...we might just have to make him a partner in Shiva Hut

Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Jason Hammel: Unsung Hero
Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)

by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

He would look good

in a gold bikini…

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Kinda like Chris Farley as a Chippendale...

Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Jason Hammel: Unsung Hero
Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)

by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

babe ruth hit 3rd, hence his uniform number 3. Gehrig hit cleanup.

Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983

by pedalpusher on Aug 23, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, now that you mention it.....

Of course everybody would like a Pujols. But please don’t act like that’s what I’m saying, because it clearly isn’t. I’m not bashing CarGo or Tulo here AT ALL. I’m simply saying I would like a true power guy in between them. To me CarGo and Tulo are at their best when they are hitting line drives into the gap and letting their HR power generate from there. I think both of them suffer when they set out to try to be long ball hitters. To me the 4 hole is the natural spot for that guy who is the more conventional type long ball power type guy. As AMart points out, a lack of OBP can be excused more there, while you want guys in front of him to get on base and a great hitter behind him with the consistency to keep him from getting pitched around. When I look at that, I see Tulo as a better fit at 3 or 5 than 4, and CarGo’s speed probably making me look at him in the 3 hole first and foremost, although that makes his OBP a bit more of an issue.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tulo's OBP could play well in the 2 hole

but of course, I also operate on the “3-hole is the 5th-highest leverage spot in the lineup”

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'd love Tulo in the 2 hole

not just because it’s fun to say, but because he’d be an awesome fit there. If we had the big bats for the 3-4-5 spots to put him there. But if it means hitting him 2nd and Olivo/Iannetta or Stewart in the 5 hole, it’s a lot less appealing.

And I didn’t know you operated on that principle, but I’m still not going to ask what the 4 higher leverage spots are. Just because you want me to…..

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

you wanna know, look it up

it’s based less batter-to-batter but more on which spots in the lineup see the most run-driving-in opportunities

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

My worry of Tulo in the 2 hole

is him stealing…sometimes his baserunning choices…are a wee bit questionable. Not a lot, but a wee bit. And I don’t know if want to risk any further quad injuries with all the stop and starting. The stealing he does now is fine….but in the 2 hole won’t he be tempted to try for more? I’d rather it be Dex and EY2

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dex and EY2 is exactly what I'm thinking most of the time

but I don’t worry that much about Tulo having to run too much in that spot. It’s not necessarily a big base stealing spot so much as a make contact/move the runner/take or swing at the right times to protect the runner kind of spot. Bat control is huge. I think Tulo is getting better at that all the time, plus he gets on base, which you really want from all 3 spots at the top of the order as much as possible.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

And if they can't

they aren’t going to contribute anywhere (aside from Dex’s defense) and we need to be looking for yet another addition to the lineup. Which would probably be a 1 or 2 hitter…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, shoot if OBP is all you want, then go with Todd

Herrera and Ianetta ;)

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Herrera's .340 OBP is bad? I thought that was considered

average?

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

It'

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's worse than Dex's .350

but then, so is everybody’s on the team except Giambi, Tulo and Mora.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I was thinking for 2nd...not leadoff...

i thought we were discussing 2 hole hitting? Did I get lost…?

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I might've

but even in the 2 hole I need to see higher

if EYJ posts a .360 OBP in the leadoff, I won’t be thrilled, but if he’s figured out how to steal in the majors, I’ll grin and bear it.

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think what we are all getting at here is that we really need one more big bat in the middle of this lineup

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's all I'm trying to say

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Question

is where are you going to put him. 1/2 1b and 1/2 RF? Maybe Garry or Ian can become that big bat but they are both lefties.

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes, that's what I've been saying

1B when Todd isn’t playing, RF most likely when Todd is.

I’m thinking RH because we’ve had the LH overload at this point, and because it makes the most natural way to split the 1B playing time between this player and Helton.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

I judt don't think the answer is a45 HR guy who strikes out 160 times

I think this team needs more guys who hit for a higher avg. more doubles. If Tulo,Cargoand 2 others hit 25-35 HR but hit for a higher Avg. The bottom of our order can’t bat for .220,.250, .230 but have pop. i’m tired of pitchers leading off innings because our 8 hitter swings at everything

by Roxfan24 on Aug 23, 2010 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Couldn't agree more about the 8 hole

turn over the damn order, please!!

I’m not advocating for Adam Dunn here, either. I love the line drive, doubles type guys who can hit 20+ homers. I just think there’s room for one guy who profiles more as a bit of a basher – I’m not thinking the guy has to be a strikeout machine who occasionally mashes something deep, though. If we want that, we can just bring back El Dread….

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 5:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think everyone has their situational bone to pick

about this season. For some it’s that the order didn’t get turned over regularly enough. For some it’s not moving guys from 2nd to 3rd. For others it’s having guys on 3rd with less than 2 outs and not scoring him.

The OT: All that AND a bag of meat.

by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 23, 2010 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Since Morales' command issues were mentioned above

I’m curious about his current situation. I recall reading somewhere recently that he’s made some improvement, and has been throwing much better of late. I find this very encouraging, because I think he still has a lot of potential. However, he seems to have worn out the organization’s patience (and most of the fans’ patience as well) so it doesn’t seem like he’s in the long term plans. Does he have any options left? If not, what are the likely scenarios for him? I would love to see him regain his command and become a DLR replacement, but if he could bring something in trade that would be good also.

by RoxnSox09 on Aug 23, 2010 10:14 AM MDT reply actions  

out of options

if he doesn’t make the team out of ST, he’ll probably be trade bait. I expect 2 packs of Fruit Stripe gum and a 2-for-1 coupon to Ruby Tuesdays for him, unlike the Quality Baseball Return that might have come had we traded him after 2008.

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

We should at least hold out for Doublemint

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

you just want the twins

/throws SDcat09 under bus
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by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, yeah

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

I inevested the last four years watching this guy and hoping he would come around

only because he is a lefty pitcher that wears #56 (same position and number I wore in high school). At this point I am hoping for the miracle and he figures it out before April 1 2011. Talk about him being worth gum saddens me mainly because it is a fair trade.

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by Neclord56 on Aug 23, 2010 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t like gum. Can you make it M&Ms?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Okay how about Starbursts? Nobody eats those things anymore…

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

/eating starburts right now

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

/feels bad for burt

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

I like big leauge chew

Grape is my favorite.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

What about Skittles?

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’d rather eat cyanide than listen to Waldman eat Skittles

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'll go as high as a

Bubble Jug, but getting into B+ and higher brand candies is just out of the question.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

YIKES!

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

They think Kila is on par with Peanut Butter M&Ms, so I guess that’s a real return compared to Bubble Jug.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

You kidding me?

I LOVE Starburst!

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

preferrably peanut butter

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

So Reese's Pieces?

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not at all

peanut butter m&m’s give you a lot more chocolate than those E.T. droppings…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Any kind

but the one with the pretzel in the middle
/shudders

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

who thought those were a good idea??

seriously, just awful…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

look how wrong you are

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

/tastes dry, nasty pretzel in middle
/remembers you can buy good chocolate covered pretzels
/realizes problem

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

but not nasty

at least not good ones. The ones in the middle of the M&Ms are just nasty.

I was excited about the idea, but appalled at the failure in execution.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

See my third previous reply

either that, or I just got a bad bag of M&Ms…..

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

I wonder if you did

they weren’t a world-ending candy but they weren’t this blight upon the snack aisle like it sounds

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

weren't?

aren’t they still selling them? They only came out like last year…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

I haven't looked for them

I just assumed it was a short-term gimmick to test to see if they were enjoyable and they’d be back later if so

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

some people’s taste…..

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

are personal?

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

don’t agree with mine so are not good?

by dsmba on Aug 23, 2010 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

nope.

everyone else is wrong.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

they have a decent salad bar.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've always felt DLR is headcase de jour....with potentially deadly

his starts since he came off the DL have been quite interesting. In many of them he pitched good enough to win but the Offense let us down….in the others he came down with Jason Hammel’s “blow up inning” sydrome.

The thing is…I’ve always felt that when DLR is “right” his stuff is right up there with U-ball’s…it’s the mental game that’s interesting. I think the injury helped the Rox chances of keeping DLR at a lower price.

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by jpage78 on Aug 23, 2010 10:27 AM MDT reply actions  

I thought this was interesting...

Today’s DP has an article on the Pirates and their finances (clicky-pops). I have to say I was a bit surprised.

Granted, $10 or $15 mil a year will probably only get you two, maybe three higher-quality players, but I would think it could at least help the Pirates pick their arbitration battles a little better rather than having an attitude of, “He’s arb-eligible? Get rid of him!” All of this “we have a plan” and “we’re committed to winning” stuff rings a little hollow otherwise when you blow it up every few years. I mean, it seems to me that if you’re relying on a constant youth movement, you need to have a bit more patience and stability.

Some things, I just had to laugh at. A new computer system? Really? It’s not like the team is all that good at judging talent to begin with (outside of having a handle on who may get a big payday come arbitration time), or has people who know much about baseball in key positions.

Not that I’m saying they should be the Mets, Red Sox, or Yankees (that’s stupid, too), and the Rays would wholeheartedly agree with me, but really…it’s okay to try and keep key pieces if you really want to win. You’d at least give Pittsburgh fans a reason to hope again, which might actually, you know, increase those gate receipts, thus the circle of life continues. It’s things like this that help me understand why the Steinbrenners of the world have issues with revenue sharing as currently structured.

I was also amused that it only took two comments for the “CHEAPFARTZ WHAARGARBL” toads to emerge. That’s quick even for a DP article.

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 10:44 AM MDT reply actions  

Also, the team should be profitable, of course...not saying they should run at a loss

…but a profit that runs a third of payroll is going to raise some suspicions, and they probably have some merit.

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

it cracks me up that the first comment

is calling the Monforts cheap…

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry

Given that payroll is the highest it’s ever been, and is in the upper half of the league.

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's an interesting article

it’s so rare to get a glimpse at revenue numbers from these teams. I have to think the Rockies are probably pretty similar to the Pirates in things like TV money and the MLB website. They should definitely have more ticket revenue than the Pirates, but if you look at their payroll, the difference more than eats up the profits the Pirates showed and part of the difference in ticket sales. But of course there is still the DP commentator contingent out there that will never be happy until the Monforts start outspending the Steinbrenners….

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by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the commenters really kind of ruin it

I understand that, as a private business, the Pirates don’t have to release their numbers (and sounds like this one was unauthorized), but it also helps to show WHY they don’t want the numbers out there.

It also goes back to the attitude of the FO and ownership, and I really think this is where the Pirates and Royals fail and fail hard. Love them or hate them, the Steinbrenners are passionate about putting the best product on the field, and it shows. They could go cheap and be absolutely rolling in dough since, after all, the MFY will always be able to print their own money because they’re The Yankees, and that name will always have a powerful cachet, no matter what. You know who else cares about putting out a quality product? The Monforts. Yep. I said it, DP troglodytes. They do care and try to put the best possible product on the field, within the resource constraints they have. That’s the difference that no one sees, but if you invest smartly in scouting and player development, you can do well. The Rays and Padres would agree with me here, and probably the best team of all time at doing this was the Expos when Bronfman owned the team and even in the early Brochu years.

So yeah, for all the cries for a salary cap (which probably wouldn’t bring as much parity as hoped), it’s only fair to consider that a salary floor may be needed (I’m looking at YOU, Pirates and Royals). A floor would probably do much more toward a “parity” ideal than a cap, or at least put strings on how revenue-sharing can be spent. Of course, the league seems to be moving in that direction pretty well organically.

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

That is what bugs me..

.complaining without actually knowing that the monforts have dropped more money this year – than any other year…sigh..

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

But all teams are the same

Everyone has the MFY revenue streams, right? Right? “Monfort” is just French for “Steinbrenner”!

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

lolmonfarts beez cheep

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

LOL CHEAPFARTZ

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hell, I'd think Mets fans have more right to be angry than anyone

A payroll that bloated that overspends on crap? I’d be pissed.

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

ha! that is true...

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

Just goes to show you that lots of money alone won't get you to the promised land

You actually need to be able to, like, evaluate and develop talent and stuff.

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by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Except

the Yankees tend to let other teams develop the talent, then pick them up in FA.

It should also be noted that the vaunted Yankees have problems this year, just like every other team. For $200M, you’ld think they would have a more stable lineup.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Aug 23, 2010 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

correct me if i'm wrong - and feel free to call me an idiot

But isn’t a good chunk of the current Yankees roster home grown?

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, they have a fair share of homegrown guys

Posada, Cano, Jeter just to name a few. The question is, if they were the Toronto Blue Jays, how many of those home grown guys would they have been able to hold on to? Particularly while adding A-Roid, Teixeira, etc. to go with them?

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by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

This exactly

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

But they aren't Toronto

They are New York – they do a great job with generating revenue that allows them to keep the home grown guys as well as the big FA’s that they can sign.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

They do a great job generating revenue

but they also have a market that lets them produce more revenue than 80% of MLB teams could ever hope to produce, even if run by the Walton Family and Bill Gates, with proceeds invested by Warren Buffet….

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by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes - but they

still put a quality product on the field instead of sitting on that revenue.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

They can do both

I have no doubt the profits the Yankees ownership sees are a very large multiple of those the Pirates made, even with the difference in payroll.

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by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

But the pressure to win is much higher

on the Yankees than it is the Pirates. So they have to use that revenue stream to satisfy market demands…Yes they make more money – but they have to make it in order to feed the beast that is new york.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

They don't have to choose

they can feed that beast and still make money. Lots of money. That is the advantage they have that the Pirates (or the Rockies) don’t have.

Let’s put it this way – if the Rockies had the Yankees revenue, do you think Matt Holliday is wearing birds on his chest these days? Do you think our roster would have been devastated for years after the Hampton/Neagle debacles? Do you think we’d be pondering who replaces JdlR in the rotation next year?

Even if you think Holliday is signing a deal that takes him past his productive years, or JdlR is too great a risk for the money he’ll be offered, you can take those chances when you’re swimming in seas of money. If it doesn’t work out, you can always sign a replacement. Hampton and Neagle fail? Meh, just bring in Sabathia and Vasquez? Vasquez blows up? Just make an offer to Cliff Lee. Not only is there more freedom to make moves, but so much more margin of error if those moves don’t work out.

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by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

but then it bloats to the point

that you HAVE to make the playoffs to stay profitable. The Yanks aren’t able to spend as liberally as everyone here makes it out

/throws SDcat09 under bus
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by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

I have a question...

doesn’t the money made from the YES network and Yankee paraphrenalia contribute to the profit margin?

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

yes.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

So, then that would contribute to like

1/2 of their income. I’m not kidding….

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

but what happens if you have a down year? or two?

lowered expectations translate to lower revenue. Their organization as a whole has pressure to succeed without peer in professional sports.

/throws SDcat09 under bus
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by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

this.

thank you.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

They might have the pressure to win..

but they sure as heck won’t be losing money if they don’t….

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

yes they would

/throws SDcat09 under bus
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by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's a testament

to what they’ve done with the Yankee brand. It will sustain them if they go through a period of on-field failure.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

yes they would.

maybe not after one season – but if they performed like the cubs or pirates have – they would be in serious financial trouble.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Only if they sustained their payroll

which I doubt they would do if they had no talent on the farm. If they were sustaining their payroll, it’s possible that they’d continue signing the best talent and keep winning.

The third scenario is like what happened from 2002-2008: spend to no results. I’m assuming they still made money during that stretch, but I don’t know.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

How much revenue would they have to lose to reach that point?

and how long would they have to be bad in order to cut revenue that much? I doubt either of us has access to the answers to those questions, but I’m willing to wager the answer is 1) a hell of a lot and 2) a lot more than one off year.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would wager 5 years..

Let’s face it, to the rest of the world, the Yankees represent baseball in America. People will buy their stuff because it is the Yankees…no matter if they lost for 5 years. It’s the history of the team and the association with past and potentially future championships that will keep people buying their stuff. And watching the YES network.

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Lots of people in China wear Cubs stuff

and they’re so bad, they did to Lou Piniella what the worst of the D Rays couldn’t do.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

No, he just settled for 7 years, $120 million

in the city he was traded to, in the area he wanted to live. He didn’t have to look to NY to get the offer he was looking for, so he didn’t. The difference is that SL is going to be seriously screwed if Holliday suddenly develops Atkins Syndrome in the next year or two, whereas NY would have more room to work around it. And SL isn’t exactly a small market team.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nobody ever said they do

Just that they can have a lot more than anybody else, even Bahston.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

That just means that money doesn't mean everything

to some players and maybe they would rather not play in NY if given a choice that was a somewhat comparable amount.

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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh God, not this again

Let’s look at it this way. Say you and I are playing a game of monopoly but instead of us each starting off with the same amount of money I start off with $3,000 and you start off with let’s say $1,000. Our luck throughout the game is virtually the same as we each have opportunities to buy lots of unpurchased property with similar values and we both routinely land on each other’s spaces. The only difference is that because I have so much money, I can afford buy everything I land on while you have to carefully pick and choose which properties will be most valuable to you.

Since my resources far outreach yours, I can afford to purchase all the expensive properties and therefore end up with a couple of really expensive monopolies well you couldn’t afford to buy some of those spaces when you landed on them and had to settle for a rinky-dink monopoly over on Reading Railroad row. In other words I can afford to keep both my "home grown" properties (the ones that I landed on) and I can also afford to buy what should have been your "home grown" property because again, I just have that many resources.

Worse yet, I still have more money than you even after all the property is bought and can afford put up houses and hotels right away while you have to slowly build up each time you collect money for passing go. You think you might get some help when I get the "pay for each house and hotel" card (monopoly’s version of baseball’s luxury tax) but even that is not enough to make you competitive as my embarrassment of riches proves endless.

After my victory I gloat and tell everyone how much better a monopoly player I am than you and you say "Well RIRF, you really don’t deserve a lot of credit for this because you had a lot more resources than I did"

I laugh at you and say "Oh yeah, I still had to make the decision about whether or not I wanted to buy the property and whether or not I wanted put up the houses and hotels. Since I still did that I deserve mad amounts of credit and it also makes me a better player than you."

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I mean to say I have a very hard time giving the Yankees any credit for winning

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think you have a gigantic chip on your shoulder

Brian Cashman is a VERY good GM, now that Hal Steinbrenner has given him the license to do his job.

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

So do you like Cashman or dislike him....?

Because as soon as he gets his grubby paws on Ubaldo….what will you think?

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

that he's an excellent GM

I neither have to like nor dislike him to think he does an excellent job at what he does.

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's easier to do an excellent job when you have that many resources

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

rec'd

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but the Mets are outliers are they not?

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry

I missed the last time either one of those teams had the resources to commit $493 million to three players in an offseason where the economy was on the verge of collapsing

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

something something liberal media

/throws SDcat09 under bus
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by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Even adjusted for inflation of the dollar, there's nothing comparable

but the Baltimore Orioles of the ’98-99 off-season came close with their trades and signings. Acquired: Charles Johnson, Will Clark, BJ Surhoff, Albert Belle, etc in excess of $150M in total contracts.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Seriously, RIRF

In 2000-01, the economy was on the verge of seeing the massive dot com bubble burst. The economy was already retracting.

And the Rangers spent at least $350M on free agents.

So, what matters more: money or good management? Good management (Marlins, A’s, Rays, Twins) gets to the playoffs pretty frequently.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

But for how long?

Those teams can get to the playoffs with good management and good drafting. But can they stay there? Will the Rays be able to keep Price, Garza, Longoria, Crawford, Hellickson, Niemann, Davis, etc. etc.? The Twins kept Mauer, but can they keep a solid cast around him? Look where the A’s are now. It’s very possible to build a contender from scratch without a big budget. The Rockies have proved that the last few years. What’s harder is staying there once the good players start earning the big money.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Who cares for how long?

The Orioles, Dodgers, Yankees, Rangers, etc all prove that money doesn’t buy you an expanded window to the playoffs.

The Twins have had the window to the playoffs open for eight years now, the Rays have the talent (though the misfortune of being in the AL East) to have a window of 4-6 years, and the A’s had a 5-6 year window in the first half the 2000s.

How long does the window have to be for it to be clear that management matters more than money?

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

So because you can spend money and fail

money isn’t helpful?? If I do an hour a day in the gym, then die young because I stupidly smoked 3 packs a day, does that mean exercise isn’t healthy?

And I suspect the fans of every damn one of those teams cares how long they are able to be good for. That’s kind of the point – that teams that can spend more money can afford to keep replenishing themselves in order to be continuously competitive. For other teams it is more difficult. The Twins deserve credit for producing good young players (and for occasionally being in a crappy division). Hopefully the Rockies can do the same for the long-term. But their options are a lot more limited if they do make a mistake.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Marlins, Rays, and A's get to the playoffs pretty frequently?

Are you kidding me? The Marlins haven’t made the playoffs in seven years, the A’s have made it once in the last 6 years and the Rays have made it once in franchise history (twice if they don’t collapse this year)

I’m thinking the money is more of an advantage

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cool

So they just need to learn how to make more money right?

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

haven't used this in a while

/throws SDcat09 under bus
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by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

And there lies the problem

They can’t because of their geography. I realize that teams are going to have enormous advantages over other teams the way the system is set up (which is fine) but I refuse to give the teams with huge advantages much credit for winning and my disdain for them will only rise when others do because as far as I’m concerned they just don’t deserve those accolades.

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Woah, slow down Charlie Red

It’s untrue that you can’t be successful due to your geography. Brand power isn’t exclusive to large cities. Otherwise, would the Packers still be in existence?

Competent management fuels success, not money.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize the Packers played baseball

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

exactly

it was a great point of a small market team doing a good job of raising revenue.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize that salary caps did

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Salary caps have been in existence

for a fraction of the time that the Packers have played football.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is true. What I should have said is that the NFL and MLB

landscapes are so different that you really can’t compare them as far as how $ translate to winning on the field. The NFL has never had teams on as many different levels as MLB does now.

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

So have big contracts

it’s a lot easier for a small market team to compete when they highest paid guy in the league is making $30,000 a year rather than $30 million. As contracts have ballooned, so has the difference in cost between paying stars and average players.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

so is the problem the

Agents?

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

/re-reads post
/still doesn’t see word “agents”

Gotta say no to that one….

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

well who do you blame

for the big increase in salaries?

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

The economics of the game

Fans will pay big $ for tickets and merchandise. Networks will pay big $ for TV contracts (because advertisers will pay big $ for ad time). There’s more $ in the system to pay the players, and they’re getting their cut.

If that money were distributed equally, it would have no effect on competitive balance. Since some teams earn more of it than others, they can afford to pay players more. Which isn’t necessarily wrong, but it certainly shouldn’t be dismissed as being any factor at all.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Read “When Pride Still Mattered”. During integration, not only did the Packers compete despite their geographic location, they competed in spite of it due to the difficulty of convincing black athletes to move to a rural town in northeastern Wisconsin.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

oh I totally agree with your point.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

But didn't the city buying the

team help them avoid going under?

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

The citizens of the city

are shareholders in the team. I forget how all that came about. I think it was more a capital investment, rather than a controlling interest.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

But plenty of small market teams

find ways of generating more revenue – see the Packers as a good example of that.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Move their teams to New York

it’s simple.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Making the playoffs is a shallow marker of success

but if that’s what you’ll go on, fine. Winning seasons or years in contention matter as well.

The Yankees monolith is not solely responsible for the Rays not gaining entrance to the playoffs in ‘09. There’s nothing anybody who argues in favor of management mattering more than money can do about the Rays playing in a division with two perennial contenders and one team that could make the playoffs on a regular basis if it was in any other division (Blue Jays).

Also, the Rays were horribly mismanaged until ~2004, and the A’s made the playoffs in 2006.

In fact, the A’s had winning record seasons from 1999-2006. The Marlins had winning records in 5 of the past 7 seasons, including a WS. The Twins have had winning records in 8 of the last 9 season, including five playoff appearances.

Meanwhile, the Astros, with a payroll consistently above $100M, haven’t made the playoffs since 2005, haven’t won 90 games since then, and won’t be successful in the near future. The Dodgers spent plenty from 1997-2003 and had no playoff appearances. And let’s not get started with the Mets again.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Or, how about the Padres this year?

If money mattered most, shouldn’t the Giants and Dodgers be crushing them?

Instead, you have a well assembled team outpacing two financial juggernauts. How do you explain that?

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Black Heart of Eckstein tm Destro

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

the ol’ San Diego Slap and Tickle

(read BABIP)

The OT: All that AND a bag of meat.

by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 23, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't call the Dodgers and Giants juggernauts

Their payrolls combined don’t equal the Yankees payroll

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

OMG!

They both have payrolls near $100M. Isn’t that enough?

The Padres payroll is less than half of either of those teams.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

And their payrolls

are each less than half of the Yankees. Quite a bit less.

Clearly teams CAN win, at least in the short-term, with small payrolls. But it’s hard for me to understand the argument that a large payroll isn’t a significant help in building a competitive team.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

So wait

You think that a 100 million payroll is a lot but then the Yankees at over 200 million is not a huge advantage?

To me the advantage of having a big payroll starts small at 90-100 million and increases from there.

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Are you familiar with the concept of diminishing returns?

I’ll acknowledge that there’s a slight difference between $96M and $130M, but there’s even less of a difference between $130M and $200M. The Yankees just had a ton of payroll freed up at the right time, and they invested it in players in their prime. That’s no crime.

The real villains are the Pirates and Royals.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not calling the Yankees villains

but having a payroll of $200 million plus on an ongoing basis sure as hell is an advantage. If it wasn’t, why would they be spending the money??

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

IDK, you’re just repeating the same thing about $200M in payroll like it’s a smoking gun and I’m saying it’s a lot more nuanced than that. And that given the nuances, management matters more than money.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm repeating it

because it’s still true and it’s still important. It matters. That’s why the Steinbrenners spend the money. Because they want to win, they have the money and the money is the best way to win. Pointing out rare examples of well run teams that make the playoffs a few times or examples of stupid teams with big payrolls doesn’t change the fact that the great majority of playoff teams every year are from the top of the payroll list.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't say 5 out of 8

is a “great majority”

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 4:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

How about this?

Top 10 teams in average wins – 2006 – 2008:

Angels
Yankees
Red Sox
Mets
Phillies
Twins
Tigers
Blue Jays
Indians
Dodgers

Payroll ranks: 6, 1, 2, 3, 10 , 24, 8, 15, 23, 4

7 of the top 10 payroll teams are top 10 in wins over that stretch. 2 of those top 10 teams are from the bottom half in payroll. Teams #5 and 9 in payroll (Cubs and White Sox) were #12 and 11 in wins. Only the Mariners of the top 10 payroll teams were in the bottom half in wins. It seems to me like the low-budget teams that win a lot and the big-budget teams that don’t are the outliers there…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oops, link didn't post.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2009/03/20062008_payrol.php

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

And how are the Pirates and Royals villains?

If your argument is that spending money isn’t important, why should they be villainized for not spending money. It wouldn’t make any difference if they spent those $29 million in profits on players anyway, right?

At worst, they have made a wise economic decision not to waste the extra money, just poor baseball decisions with the money they did spend. That’s not villainous.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are completely mischaracterizing my point

Management matters more than money. I’ve detailed what I think about tiers of money in relation to opportunity for success below.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

How have I mischaracterized anything here?

You are simluataneously arguing that spending money doesn’t matter in building a winner if you have good management and that certain teams are “villainous” for not spending money.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

And yet the higher we go on the payroll latter the more likely the teams are to make the playoffs

I’m not concerned about returns here, I’m concerned with how much spending money helps you make the playoffs. Once you get there it’s a crapshoot and anyone can win as SSS baseball is so unpredictable.

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Under your argument, being in contention come September is the most important indicator of success. September are relatively small sample compared to a season of results.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

No

My measure of success is being one of the 8 teams in the playoffs. After all that’s the goal each team is trying to attain in the regular season right?

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

And, please explain

why the 2001 Rangers are different than the 2009 Yankees, if not for competent management?

What is the reason that the Dodgers failed from 1997-2003, or that the Orioles were in the top 8 in payroll from 1998-2000 and blew? And there are tons of other examples of teams having top 1/3 payrolls but sucking. Why did the 2000-2003 Rangers finish in the top 9 in payroll every year, but fourth in their division?

Why is it that money matters when moneyed teams fail more often than they succeed?

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

You've never answered this

are you really saying that just because it’s possible to fail with a big budget means that a big budget isn’t an advantage?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Seems to me if big budgets

weren’t an advantage, why would the Yankees have such a big payroll? I’m confused…

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

They’re not an absolute advantage. The Yankees’ payroll is so big because they reinvest in the team. Everyone knows what their payroll is, but you, RIRF and Jnct Rox don’t want to seem to acknowledge or account for the big budget failures.

Those failures demonstrate that money is certainly not everything, but having competent management means everything.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wait now...I never said that

nor disavowed knowledge of said failures. At the same time, you don’t seem to be willing to acknowledge that a bigger payroll does provide some advantages….

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've already said

that bigger payroll, up to a point, provides an opportunity for a longer window for success.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Then what are we arguing about..

lol

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well that's no debate.

They are EVIL!

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 4:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Evil=good?

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by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 4:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Big budgets can fail

we all admit that. That doesn’t lead to the point that big budgets are irrelevant that you are trying to make.

Go back to my example about spending an hour a day in the gym and stupidly smoking 3 packs a day. When I die young, it doesn’t mean that the exercise wasn’t healthy. It just means I was stupid enough to override the benefits.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

But here's the thing

When you get to the Yankee level budget failures don’t hurt you. Kei Igawa, Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, Giambi, Jarred Wright, soon we can add Arod to this list ect………………….

However the Yankees still made the playoffs despite all this stupidity because they always have more money. That’s the point, the level they are on allows them to make mistakes that would cripple other teams for years.

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

Here's my final say:

What RIRF and Junction are arguing is that the Yankees ability to spend $200M, combined with the fact that they’ve made the playoffs every but one since 1996, is absolute proof that more money is an indisputable advantage. Then they say that 5 of the top 8 payroll teams, etc… No nuance. Bigger the budget, the greater the advantage.

From the low-budget, well-managed size, my argument offers; Twins, A’s, Rays, Marlins. From the high-budget, poorly-managed side, I offer: Rangers (2000-2003), Orioles (1998-2000), Dodgers (1997-2003), Astros (2006-present). Those teams contradict the idea that money is an absolute advantage.

Within the realm of payroll, there are certain things that offer greater opportunity for success. $50-70M clearly allows for a longer window of opportunity than $40M. After that, maybe there’s a difference when you get to $130M, but it’s slim. Going from $130M to $200M is even slimmer.

What the Yankees have done for the past 15 years is manage their roster construction well, balance home grown talent with FA signings, and use minor league assets for trades.

Not every dollar of their $200M payrolls has worked out. In fact, for years during the 2000s, probably $80-100M of that payroll was creating more problems than helping. More money spent =/= absolute advantage.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

In fact, it’s more luck than money. What if the contract to Giambi, Pavano, etc hadn’t run out when they did? The Yankees wouldn’t have had the money to spend on Teixeira, Sabathia and Burnett. Sheer coincidence (and if not sheer coincidence, then incredible long-term outlook) has as much to do with it as money.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

How do you know they wouldn't have had the money?

They may not have had it if Giambi and Pavano were still on the books. OTOH, they might have been able to do both. Neither of us knows what that limit was. What both of us do know is that for most teams in baseball, signing Teixeira, Sabathia and Burnett was not an option no matter what other contracts were on the books. Hell, for most teams signing any one of the three was not an option. But I guess there’s no advantage to those signings.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

It is an advantage

I’m not saying it can’t be trumped by good or bad management, but it is an advantage. I’m not sure what the reluctance is to admit that it’s an advantage to be able to spend $200 million (or even $150 million) than to spend $75 million. It doesn’t mean the $200 million payroll isn’t well managed. But there is an advantage there.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’m saying that a big budget is no more a guarantor of success than a small budget. And I’ve given numerous examples to that effect. Management matters more.

Now, if you want to talk about sustainable windows, $40M in payroll isn’t going to get you past a year. But $50-70M in payroll will get you a sizable window, maybe 4-5 years.

After 4-5 years, everything is a crapshoot.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Management may matter MORE

that doesn’t make it the only important factor.

It also ignores the point the management with a large budget has a lot more freedom to make the occasional big dollar mistake.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Then why are more than half of the teams in the postseason in each of the last half dozen years all in the top 30% of payrolls?

If money doesn’t matter this should not happen

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Eh

Not all. At least five of eight who make the playoffs each year are in the top 30% of payrolls

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

because most of the other teams don't care

or are completely imcompetent

/throws SDcat09 under bus
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Did I click on the Denver Post site?

If a team isn’t winning, it’s because they’re a bunch of cheapfartz who don’t care about winning and pocket all the money. Except for what they pay to Dan O’Dud to be stupid and cut payroll?? I know that isn’t what you meant, but what exactly are you saying here?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

If money mattered the most

then all of those 8 teams would be the top 8 payrolls. It’s neither an absolute advantage, nor the only recipe for sustained success.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Speaking of misrepresented arguments

HO-LY COW!!!

I’m pretty sure a bunch of Rockies fans know you can make the playoffs without a top 8 payroll. I’m pretty sure nobody has said it’s impossible to lose if you spend enough money. In fact we’ve all said every time you keep bringing up that trope that stupid can override money. Can you admit, in turn, that there is a pretty damn strong correlation between the teams with the most wins and those with the highest payrolls? I notice that post of mine above hasn’t seen any replies.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 4:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

I liked that post :-)

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 5:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Making the playoff is a shallow marker of success?

So let’s see here. Teams that have money and are not runs by complete idiots make the playoffs and team that have little money but great managment have winning seasons and sometimes make the playoffs.

And BTW, the Rays only winning 84 games last year is why they didn’t make the playoffs, not because they were in the AL East

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

They wouldn't have won more than 84 games

if they played in the AL Central, or the NL East?

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

WRONG!!!!!!!!

Tampa went 40-32 against the AL East last year and 44-36 against everyone else. Playing in that division didn’t hurt their record one bit.

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dude, unbalanced schedules mean they’d play the Royals and Indians a lot more.

Just because they only won 55% of a certain number of games out of the division does not mean that they’d continue winning at the same rate if they played them more.

It’s hard to argue that playing the Royals and Indians more wouldn’t afford the Rays more wins.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Except for the fact that they went 3-5 against the Indians

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

After all of this,

and not that I don’t stand by my arguments, I wonder: so what? What is instructive about pointing out the successes of high-revenue teams?

That life isn’t fair? We already knew that.

I’m steadfastly of the belief that good management and a $70M payroll will win as often, if not more, than average management and $200M. But even if you disagree, and say that $200M is an advantage that a $70M payroll team can’t overcome, where does that go?

In a letter to the commissioner’s office that no one will ever read?

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Cubs have printed their own money almost as much as the Yankees

Those “cachet” names tend to do pretty well, especially as loyal as Cubs fans are, and having Wrigley Field doesn’t hurt.

Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Jason Hammel: Unsung Hero
Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)

by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Baltimore Orioles of the late 90s and early aughts

The Dodgers, pretty much from 98 to now. The Astros since their WS appearance.

The Mets are not alone in high priced mediocrity.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Rec'd. So rec'd

We would have also accepted “Peter Angelos”, at least before even O’s fans stopped going to games.

Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Jason Hammel: Unsung Hero
Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)

by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe it's harder

did you ever think of that??

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not perfectly fair, no

but no professional sport is perfectly fair with a level playing field. The NFL has a salary cap, but it’s still easier for certain teams to lure free agents than others. The NBA has a salary cap/luxury tax system, and 3 guys can still decide to run off to Miami to do their own thing. It happens. Personally I’d like to see some steps taken to make the economic playing field a little more even, but as it is I think it has to at least be recognized that certain teams have HUGE built in advantages and it is unrealistic to expect other teams to spend themselves into bankruptcy to “keep up” when they never could.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

So what you are saying,

is that the next version of Monopoly will be Yankee Monopoly.

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Already is.

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto

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by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, sonofa...

I should have known…sigh…

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

their "jail"

is actually having to go an dplay for the Mets.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

heh...I see what you did there..

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

That will look great in my fireplace this winter

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

The funny thing to me

is that I don’t see a whole lot of acknowledgment of the fact that several of the players signed by the MFY over the years have taken less money to play there. No, the Yankees are not always the highest bidder. There are fairly sizeable numbers of players out there who see a lot of prestige simply in playing for a marquee team like the Yankees, and they would be right…

Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Jason Hammel: Unsung Hero
Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)

by Paleface Destro on Aug 23, 2010 5:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ok. This is just silly.

Monopoly is mostly about luck.

Perhaps I get lucky with my rolls – and never land on your properties – thus cutting off any income stream you may have – and you can never build on the expensive properties. And you get the bad luck and keep landing on my smaller priced properties and feed me more and more money to build up on what I do have – and eventually beat you.

And even if you do beat me in your scenario – yes – you had to leverage what you had in order to beat me. If you don’t spend the money available to you – you can’t win the game. And ultimately just like in baseball – the goal is to win. So you could say that you were a better player for me. You were able leverage your assets better than I was able to leverage mine…is it fair that you started out with more…but hell that’s life.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

You could argue that baseball is mostly about luck too

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

It is about luck.

How else would the Padres be running away with the division right now?

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pitching and defense?

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

So, positioning and anticipation

of said infielders is only luck?

Tulo is sad….

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

there are many ways where “part” is different than “only”

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

fair enough...sorry for missing that PART .....

:(

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe all a GM can do is put the best team possible on the field

and that should give the team the highest chance they can have to win. The problem is that the Yankees odds are always goin to be higher because they have more resources (Just like my odds would always be higher in my monopoly example becasuse I had more resources)

The issue here is not as much about fairness to me as it is about how much credit the Yankess get for what they do. I would think anyone who tried to tell me how much better they were when they have multiple times the resources is an ass

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

You have no evidence to support that claim

And there is a mountain of evidence that suggests: Mo money, mo problems.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh really

If money causes problems then how come five of the teams with the highest nine payrolls last year made the postseson and a 6th (Detroit) was one inning away from making it?

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

mo money mo problems

/throws SDcat09 under bus
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

So I guess the fact that

five of the teams with the highest nine payrolls also made the postseason in 2008 and that five of the teams with the highest eight payrolls in 2007 made the postseason is just a coincidence too then?

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Which is why

teams with more money can afford more good players.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

And if it werent' for the poor

small market teams – the Yankees wouldn’t have anyone to steal good talent from.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

and the vast majority of poor teams choose to be sucky

blame crappy owners/GMs

/throws SDcat09 under bus
Rowsdower! But why, Rowsdower?
SB Nation Denver

by Muzia on Aug 23, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Exactly

the Yankees sucked in the early part of the decade because they had George Castanza working for them.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Exterminator!

That’s what we used to call him back in high school.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

My team doesn't have a Yankees-sized market share!

a Bloo Bloo Bloo it’s not FAIIRRRR

The Rockies operate on a lower payroll and can’t afford the best. There’s no room for error. We need the most from our dollars. You don’t like it? Go be an Angels fan.

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

whoa!!! That was a little harsh..

and somewhat beneath your normal “edginess”….

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Everyone should stop

deploring the Yankees and learn to love them. Just like the Bomb!

"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
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by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

So you want us to hate the Yankees...

Dear Rockies - Please finish ahead of the hated Giants
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all. ( Please don't kill us wherever you play)
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
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by SDcat09 on Aug 23, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Only because hate is love.

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by Russ Oates on Aug 23, 2010 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dammit Russ

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

What the hell did I say to deserve this?

“Go be an Angels”

Seriously?!?!?!?

I defend my argument with stats about how much teams spend and how many of them make the playoffs and this is how you respond?

You’re better than that RMN

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Actually, there is a spending binge comprable to the Yankees '09 offseason

The 2001 Texas Rangers committed at least $350M that I could track to: Ken Caminiti, Angres Galarraga, Rafael Palmeiro, Darren Oliver, Kenny Rogers, Ivan Rodriguez, and A-ROD.

And that was in the 2000-01 off-season.

How’d that go for Texas?

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

more money doesn't mean success

 You still have to be good at knowing what players are going to be worth spending the money on.

I don’t think they are getting a good ROI on Rodriguez (but again nobody would because he is way over paid). And I think they paid way too much money for Clemons…and he didn’t pan out well for them either.

And in New York – anything less than a world series title is a failure…Look at the stretch of time in the first part of this decade – they didn’t live up to how much they were paying their players…

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

even if you do beat me in your scenario

I would beat you in this scenario almost every time. Just like the Yankees win that division almost every year

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Because you know

the Yankees don’t have any other big market teams in their division to contend with….

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Yankees are in a class of their own when it comes to this

They have spent at least 40 million more than the Red Sox every year for the last nine years

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

The post season is a crapshoot

Once you get there I think anyone can win (See the 83 win 2006 Cardinal team)

It’s getting to the postseason where I believe the huge resources makes it really easy

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

And yet the Red Sox

have more world series titles in that time span.

"Ninety feet between a hot dog and my mouth is too far" - Maria M (SDCAT09 is awesome for coming up with this fake quote for me!)

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by Maria M on Aug 23, 2010 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

At what point does the spread between the biggest spender and the next biggest spender even matter?

Once you’re above $100M, if you have good management you are playing a stacked hand.

by deacs on Aug 23, 2010 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

When the Red Sox payroll last year is closer the the Royals than the Yankees I think it starts to matter

The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 23, 2010 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you take the starters

DH should be Berkman (DL from the Astros) so Posada
1B Teixiera (Texas)
2B Cano
SS Jeter
3B ARod (Seattle,Texas)
RF Swisher (Oak)
CF Granderson (Det)
LF ?
C Cervelli (ably filling in)

Of the 8 starters, 5 are from other systems.

SP
Sabathia (Cle)
Burnett (Fla)
Pettitte
Vazquez (Mon, ChiSox)
Hughes

5 SP, 3 from other systems.

It was argued that their core came from their system, Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettitte, old history, and Hughes, Chamberlain Cano, new history. But that argument really is starting to falter IMO. Of those last 3, Cano is proving everyone right, as is Hughes. But Chamberlain is over-rated and seems to be nothing more than a product of the New York media.
For their money, the Yankees should have a very productive farm system when you think about how much money they could spend on the foreign guys.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Aug 23, 2010 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

But don't forget

buying FA is one thing, and making trades is another

Teix was obv a FA, as well as Burnett and CC.

They traded Alfonso Soriano + Joaquin Arias for ARod

They traded Wilson Betemit, Jeff Marquz, and Jhonny Nunez for Swish (and Kanekoa Texeira, who was Rule 5’d away)

They traded Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, and Ian Kennedy for Curtis Granderson.

They traded Arodys Vizcaino, Melky Cabrera, and Michael Dunn for Javy Vazquez and Boone Logan.

Having good player development doesn’t mean you HAVE to have a full homegrown lineup every day. Players are resources that you can either keep for what value they can provide your team in the form of on-field production, or they can provide value in the form of another player’s production.

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Very good point

OTOH, having the financial resources allows you to trade for players that teams are looking to move for financial resources, or make trades for high priced players in a limited market, since most teams can’t afford those players….

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

by Junction Rox on Aug 23, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

which should be taken into account, sure.

The Yankees are a great money sink, that’s for sure. But when you have to move a guy, and nobody else will take him…

by Andrew Martin on Aug 23, 2010 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nobody else could have taken on A-Rod's contract

and still had the flexibility to add Teixeira, Sabathia, Burnett, …

The argument that money doesn’t matter in baseball is beyond silly.

by RoxnSox09 on Aug 23, 2010 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, true, but they're still good at evaluating talent

To be fair, they’ve also had their share of homegrown players over the years, too.

As for their problems, how badly have they been bitten by the inj