Sunday Rockpile: Don't shoot the messenger, Baylor's preaching the message too
by Rox Girl on Aug 29, 2010 8:18 AM MDT
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Now that Dave Krieger talked to Don Baylor and got word from the coach himself that he's trying to get Rockies players to adjust their offensive approach to the situation, it takes us to the next quandary:
- Is the reason that some players aren't getting the message because Baylor's a bad coach or leader?
- Is the reason that the players are stubborn and "uncoachable"?
And I'm hesitating to use that word, as given prior conversations on Purple Row, people might get the impression we're talking only about Ian Stewart here, but there are more Rockies than him that show signs of stubbornness. In addition to Stewart, both catchers, Miguel Olivo and Chris Iannetta, Seth Smith, Dexter Fowler and even Carlos Gonzalez could improve their results and hitting approaches deep in a pitch count and have been stubbornly bad in those situations this year. I'd include Clint Barmes, but I really don't know how possible a fix would be with him. The Rockies in particular need to be aware that what works at Coors doesn't on the road, and while given the results, its okay for them not to make these adjustments in the friendly confines of LoDo, once they get on that plane elsewhere they need to have a whole different mindset to how they approach each at bat.
If the issue isn't Baylor, then the blame goes up the ladder to the GM for creating a team of so many problem cases and the solution is in swapping out on field personnel, not the off-field coaching staff.
Jhoulys Chacin isn't going to get much, if any, love from NL ROY voters in a deep year, but just in case you were curious (I was) check out his current FanGraphs WAR compared to the players that will be mentioned prominently come award season (this is a pretty random order, I don't mean to imply anything by it):
- Jaime Garcia 3.1
- Buster Posey 2.9
- Stephen Strasburg 2.6
- Jason Heyward 3.5
- Jhoulys Chacin 2.3
I think Posey's going to get the bulk of the Western U.S. vote, Heyward's going to rule in the Southeast (along with that Gaby Sanchez guy, who I hate) and Garcia will have a pocket of support in the Midwest. The Northeast will get to decide who wins, probably largely based on who goes to the playoffs and whose highlights are seen most on Sportscenter over the last month of the season. Sorry, Buster, your games are too late.
Chacin's not far off from these players in value, and a few more starts like last night could see him being the most valuable rookie pitcher in 2010, even if it's fairly certain he won't factor into the ROY voting.
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The game
was only one inning last night?
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I mentioned this yesterday. It may also play into why they do well at Petco, very similar to Coors in layout
We are an alley hitting team which plays very well here but they seem to be just flyball/liner outs elsewhere. But instead of hitting to holes we try to hit it out. Olivo may be listening and it resulted in his slump(doubtful). Dex is young and I do seem to see improvement over the course of this season. Cargo is starting to walk.
SOmetimes we want changes to show immediate results and in baseball that rarely happens. It may not minifest itself until next spring.
Did Baylor talk to Krieger before or after
Making campaign calls to be someone’s next manager?
After he told reporters he's still interested in managing.
Good point. I’m still in the gray blame everybody camp. It’s part O’Dowds fault in team building, part Baylor’s in not getting the message through, and part the players for not getting the message.
If the issue is the players being stubborn/uncoachable, will any hitting coach get through to them?
My problem is what I consider an excessive number of backwards Ks on pitches that should be swung at with 2 strikes. Is this the hitters being stubborn and looking for the perfect pitch or the hitting coach telling them to layoff borderline pitches.
I guess I don’t think the hitters are just going up there trying to jack HRs. We’ve built for the most part a group of guys who have power swings whether it goes in the gap or the power alley. We are not a group of punch and judy hitters with the exception of EY, Dex and Herrera.
It will be an interesting off-season seeing how it all shakes out. I doubt that Baylor will be back next year, probably due to him landing a managerial job. I hope this happens early enough that we can land a well respeceted hitting coach.
Baseball statistics are like a girl in a bikini. They show a lot, but not everything. ~Toby Harrah, 1983
by pedalpusher on Aug 29, 2010 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Manny once again not in the lineup, per Renck.
The Dodgers are still claiming that they’re not going to give him away to the White Sox, that Chicago has to offer a prospect in return, which is still BS.
This is earily like Hawpe's situation. Chisox have no reason to trade any one of value.
ANd will get him after the game for a PTBNL is my guess
They'll get him after the game (or on Tuesday) for nothing at all
The Dodgers will blink first and let the waiver pickup go through.
Remember, Manny has a full no trade clause and is said to be demanding an extra year. The Sox don’t really wanna offer that. The only way the Dodgers get the last few million off the books (which is of greater importance to them at this point), is just to let him go.
not as punny as SDcat00
by Mondogarage on Aug 29, 2010 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Btw, I made the tweet last night that he absolutely deserves a call-up
but check out Cole Garner’s August:
.330/.382/.600 with 6 HR after knocking another one out last night.
And that’s not all at home, in the last road trip to Memphis and Nashville he went 11/29 with six extra base hits. He’s on fire at the right time. And I’m really curious to see how he translates these stats into MLB performance.
Wait..You tweeted?
Checks twitter feed. I don’t see it.
People I wished tweeted more often:
Alexi Lalas
Kenny Mayne
Brandi Griffin
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by Charlie77 on Aug 29, 2010 12:29 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Ditching the pseudonym, because I couldn't figure out how to get back into my BrandiGriffin account
KendallRocksOn is my new Twitter account.
Here’s the link to the Tweet on Garner.
OH! You're Kendall Rocks?
I’m already following you. And now.. oh that fills in so many blanks.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 29, 2010 12:40 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Ha! I figured you already knew, since you're like one thirty followers I have
And PurpleRowCares is another.
Well you were following pr cares and i was enjoying your tweets ..
So much that I decided to follow you from my personal @charliedrysdale and I kept wondering who you were. I thought you might be a PR Lurker.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 29, 2010 1:03 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Baylor
I’m reserving judgment on Baylor until after the SF series. Although we’ll be facing THAT pitching staff so maybe I’ll wait until after the Padres series.
OTish- I was reading the Retro Rockpile post you put up the other day. It was really quite awesome to remember.
RG, you are prescient – you mentioned that Torrealba might very well continue his trend and should start over CDI in 2010. You were right and it’s too bad, he’s doing it for the Padres now (.
Also, it was balloon boy day…wow…
Dear Rockies - Please beat the dreaded Dodgers
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all! Good luck with the Rays!
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I know, I thought the same thing re: ballooon boy day.
We should probably hold a vigil or something on the anniversary.
Yeah, and I sort of saw it coming with Torrealba, as a player who had finally gotten a grasp on what we’re talking about in this thread on changing his approach to the situation. He had taken a step forward in his ability to make good contact last year that a lot of people were missing because they were too focused on either loving or hating CDI.
btw, I didn’t make that post to say neener-neener-neener I told you so about Tracy so much as to try and get people to remember what they told me about Tracy. I hate blaming managers/coaches for failures of a team, unless it becomes patently obvious there’s an issue (as was the case with Hurdle and the Mets hitting coach earlier this season) and think most of the responsibility should fall to players or the FO that brought those players in.
I do think Baylor and Tracy deserve some blame, and some credit for the team’s performance, but in general I think fans that want to give coaches an axe are looking for a quick fix that might not always be there, and being lazy in uprooting deeper problems.
I didn't take your post as a neener-neener thing.
It was definitely a great reminder of what we all discussed and thought. And you have been pretty consistent in your opinion of Tracy all along.
Dear Rockies - Please beat the dreaded Dodgers
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all! Good luck with the Rays!
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Okay, I admit I took it as a neener-neener thing at first
I was wrong and I’m sorry about that.
As to the larger point, I have to agree. While Tracy has certainly made some bonehead decisions, he wasn’t on the field during that nightmare road trip. Baylor isn’t the one swinging for the fences with two strikes, and Dac doesn’t serve up meatballs to the Casey Blakes of the world. Clint Hurdle had obviously lost the team, and they were quitting on him as a result, but no one can say that they’re quitting on Jim Tracy, regardless of how they may feel about some of his moves.
Personally, I still choose to think that things would be a lot different this year without some of the injuries, because alternate history is FUN. Sure, the team as a whole (especially the pitching staff) was ridiculously, unsustainably healthy last season, but it’s been tough this year (and I still think it drove a lot of the tinkering).
I hope that DOD and Tracy will sit down sometime this winter and take some serious stock of what they saw this season and do what they need to do. Maybe that results in some personnel moves, maybe not. At least come up with some emphasis items for ST or something…with the new hitting coach if Baylor gets the work he really wants.
Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
HEAR YE: Tremble (with laughter) at the sight of Sir Preening Fauxhawk, BS, of the Clan of the Great Pumpkin
Jason Hammel, Unsung Hero warns us all: Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)!
by Paleface Destro on Aug 29, 2010 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions
You really like Trade dealine poker don't you RG?
I agree with you main points and you can take a closer look at Todd and Seth ( excuse me SDcat; I meant Gary) in my fan post. I think it shows a lot about the futility this year and think I have a partial answer.
I don’t know if it’s a generational thing or Baylor is the wrong messanger. I brought up in the post wrap friday what Halo’s Heaven thinks of Hatcher. Suboptimal’s fanpost about fireing Hatcher was brillant. I want to see Garner and Nelson after the 1st and Miller too. I hope that Nelson can br that right handed bat to balance the order and that Garner can be that clutchy power bat we lack.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
foagie its Garry spelling is key here..:P
Dear Rockies - Please beat the dreaded Dodgers
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all! Good luck with the Rays!
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Sorry...
Couldn’t sleep last night. Wrote the post instead. now I have to go to sleep. ::-/
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Just wake up in time for the game today :)
Dear Rockies - Please beat the dreaded Dodgers
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act. I'm going to miss you most of all! Good luck with the Rays!
"You can learn a lot just by watching"-Yogi Berra
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Trade deadline poker is the best kind of poker.
It’s just been sort of a strange thing in this case with the Dodgers leaking disinformation that they may keep Manny. If they really like him helping their chances down the stretch, and think the $4 million he’s still due is worth it, then why not play the guy?
maybe its like when you have a really cool, rare, and expensive toy
so you just kinda have it around to look at and show off, but not actually use…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
If Eli Broad owned the team, this would make a lot of sense.
I realize you’re joking, but that’s definitely not the M.O. of their current ownership group.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Per Renck:
no Ian Stewart for the Rockies despite a right-hander on the mound.
He strained his right oblique in the batting cage during Friday night’s loss and may miss a few games.
Ubaldomania.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 29, 2010 9:36 AM MDT reply actions
shize
Yes, I actually do like cricket. I'm Indian.
Rockies are actually zombies. And they're coming to hunt you down just when you think they're buried.
Hollidayrain Music
by Hollidayrain on Aug 29, 2010 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm hoping it turns out to be a blessing in disguise.
Stewart’s been mediocre of late, and if he can work some things out in a practice environment before returning, it could really help the Rockies in the stretch run.
Time to show Nelson and Herrera at 3b
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Time to bring Stewarts hitting coach to Denver..
You know he reads PR right? seriously
Donate to charity by shopping for Purple Row Merchandise at: Purple Row Cares
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by Charlie77 on Aug 29, 2010 12:32 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
true
Yes, I actually do like cricket. I'm Indian.
Rockies are actually zombies. And they're coming to hunt you down just when you think they're buried.
Hollidayrain Music
by Hollidayrain on Aug 29, 2010 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure that's old (from yesterday)
For some reason, the Post automatically inserts various old articles into Renck’s Twitter.
Last night was the only righty we face until Timmy on Wed
So Mora was going to see a fair amount of action anyway
Mora's been pretty productive lately, so I guess it could be worse
Yes, I actually do like cricket. I'm Indian.
Rockies are actually zombies. And they're coming to hunt you down just when you think they're buried.
Hollidayrain Music
by Hollidayrain on Aug 29, 2010 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Maybe he can play some Xbox to get it back into shape
(I kid, of course…he’d need a Wii to do that properly)
Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
HEAR YE: Tremble (with laughter) at the sight of Sir Preening Fauxhawk, BS, of the Clan of the Great Pumpkin
Jason Hammel, Unsung Hero warns us all: Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)!
by Paleface Destro on Aug 29, 2010 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions
my Wii Fit board is probably gossiping behind my back as we speak.
Such a backstabber. And it wonders why I was “too busy” to work out yesterday.
It tends to be very harsh when taking my weight, I've noticed
Little so-and-so…let’s see how snarky you get WITHOUT BATTERIES! HA!
Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
HEAR YE: Tremble (with laughter) at the sight of Sir Preening Fauxhawk, BS, of the Clan of the Great Pumpkin
Jason Hammel, Unsung Hero warns us all: Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)!
by Paleface Destro on Aug 29, 2010 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions
"OOOH OOF"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 29, 2010 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
dun-dunDUNdundun-dun
That’s Obese! ;-p
"Good pitching will beat good hitting any time, and vice versa." ~Bob Veale
"I hope this game isn't horrible. Because if it is, we're going to have to wait until tomorrow to see the Rockies win." ~5-yo
"Sometimes you're the windshield, and sometimes you're the bug."~Mitch Williams
Chief Engineer of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
Proud Member of the PR Gynocracy
by Rox the Casbah on Aug 29, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
haha
By the time I get back, it’ll be a few weeks.
I still believe...
This is R year!
by prettyinpurple on Aug 29, 2010 11:45 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't mind
Mora’s been pretty good
The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 29, 2010 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Oops
Not in the lineup today
The 2010 Rockies are done!!!!! Do you hear me Rockies? You have NO SHOT at making the postseason. In fact I guarantee you will not make the postseason. (Okay, now that I have removed all expectations go out and make me eat these words)
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 29, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Lineups:
Rockies lineup for 8/29 vs. LAD. Young4, fowler8, Gonzalez7, Tulowitzki6, Helton3, Spilborghs9, Iannetta2, Herrera5, Hammel1.
Herrera at 3B. Hmmmm.
Ubaldomania.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 29, 2010 10:18 AM MDT reply actions
get well soon Stewart
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
yes
I still believe...
This is R year!
by prettyinpurple on Aug 29, 2010 10:41 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
good luck Johnny
get well Stewie indeed
time to make another run to the postseason....get it going guys!!
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Aug 29, 2010 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions
Let's go out there and show them what the Unsung Hero is all about.
Paleface Destro, Infield Butcher: Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
HEAR YE: Tremble (with laughter) at the sight of Sir Preening Fauxhawk, BS, of the Clan of the Great Pumpkin
Jason Hammel, Unsung Hero warns us all: Beware The Black Heart of Eckstein(tm)!
by Paleface Destro on Aug 29, 2010 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Herrera and not Mora? huh
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
His name is Dan Uggla!
by Colsportsfan on Aug 29, 2010 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions
This would be one of the signs that the Rockies would also be bluffing to say they're in pure contender mode
But they’ve never actually leaked information to the press to that effect like the Dodgers. Herrera and EY Jr. still need long looks before the season ends. This is an opportunity to watch both.
I'm positive Tracy is playing the career splits
Mora leads the Rockies in career PA with 41 vs Lilly but only has 3 hits against him. I don’t usually look into those too much, but that’s one that I don’t mind playing into.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 29, 2010 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Management has a problem
They get stuck on certain players who they think are the next “it” before they are ready. Sorry but Young is a liability in the field, anywhere. Dex was brought up too soon. They praised Gonzalez last year too soon, and the Rockies suffered. They like the flash and arrogance that is ruining the clubhouse atmosphere. The most successful teams have a balance of veterans and a few young guys, but the Rockies give away any stability. Veterans are trying to show the guys the right way to play ball, listen to coaches and show the game respect but management has created their own monsters.
by indianrox on Aug 29, 2010 11:15 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
THEY ALSO HAVE LOUSY POSTGAME MUSIC IN TJE LOCKERROOM!!!
I think it was Air Supply.
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by Charlie77 on Aug 29, 2010 12:34 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Okay, now you've done it
I’m all out of love.
not as punny as SDcat00
by Mondogarage on Aug 29, 2010 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions
This team
is lost in love…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Bazinga!!
by Junction Rox on Aug 29, 2010 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I can't believe you just called EY a black hole at second...
…I KNOW from black holes at second (Stewart, Uggla, Mora); and while EY needs to learn how to position himself on an SB attempt, that’s the extent of his bad
Without a clear, reasonable definition of when a player is "ready"
this kind of argument always falls apart. It sets up a scenario where a mediocre (or worse) performing veteran will always be the preferred choice over a better performing younger player. Go back to the Garrett Atkins scenario, where you had one player clearly in decline, dragging the team down with his bat, and a hotshot minor leaguer that could probably stand to use more AAA seasoning, but who was clearly the superior on field player. Your argument says, “The Rockies should just live through a few more years of terrible results until Stewart reaches his full potential.”
I’m sorry, I don’t buy it.
I’d say you have it backwards. They stick on guys too long, mostly. Atkins and Hawpe are cases in point, though, to be fair, nobody really could have foreseen just how far they’d fall.
There's a place out west where the Powder River rolls off the Bighorn Mountains. It's a land of red walls, blue sky, and clean air, where the eagle glides high above the canyons and makes its nest in the rocks that overlook the valleys where the sagebrush and cottonwoods grow. This is ranch country - has been for more than a hundred years.
Well things have changed some since the early days, but there's still a thread of character and tradition that runs true from one generation to the next. You can see it in the way folks out here set a horse; you can hear it in the way they talk. And when the work's all done, there's nothing they like better than to get together at the one room schoolhouse under the red wall for another down home, homegrown, Western Saturday night.
whew
Gah! Technical difficulties nightmares! Whew!
That bed is hard as a rock!
Applesauce for breakfast, hope that holds enough energy for me ; J
I still believe...
This is R year!
by prettyinpurple on Aug 29, 2010 11:17 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
must...keep....winning....
be nice to win a series over the Dodgers for once as well…Go Rockies
time to make another run to the postseason....get it going guys!!
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
I've just discovered to my absolute surprise
That a BBC radio station over here has a baseball show, and are about to broadcast the Yankees/White Sox game! How about that. And the (British) announcer says he’s an NL guy. Sweet.
Thanks Butterfly :)
The game itself is being commented by the regular Sox guys live from Chicago. But the Brit dude is the one who used to present live baseball when it was shown on TV at 1am up to a few years ago, and he’s great.
On the other hand, it’s a bank holiday this weekend and we’ve got friends coming over for a poker night tonight, so my listening will be necessarily brief…
Thats awesome!
I’ve been excited to follow an EPL Guy here and have been watching Arsenal on the ESPN.
Donate to charity by shopping for Purple Row Merchandise at: Purple Row Cares
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by Charlie77 on Aug 29, 2010 12:36 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
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