Wednesday Rockpile: Examining Carlos Gonzalez and his Extension
About a month ago when Troy Tulowitzki signed his 10 year, $157 million mega-extension, I opined that the deal represented a major paradigm shift for the organization (and a positive one at that). The news Monday afternoon that the man preceding Tulowitzki in the lineup, Carlos Gonzalez, was signing a long-term deal with the Rockies (reportedly 7 years, $80 million) did nothing but reinforce that opinion. All signs point toward Colorado's revenues increasing as stars like CarGo and Tulo bring in more fans (who will buy more merchandise) and hopefully a more lucrative TV deal. The goal is a powerhouse of a franchise built on the principles of character, team, and integrity.
Much as I did with Troy Tulowitzki, I'll evaluate both the player and the contract, noting that the way in which Gonzalez's extension affects the Rockies amplifies the effect of the Tulowitzki deal (that is to say that my their effect on the franchise not only similar but also additive). To simplify things, I'll break down my analysis of the CarGo extension into on the field and financial portions.
On the Field
The same reason that people might not have liked Troy Tulowitzki's deal apply to Gonzalez's extension as well: namely the size of the contract and the risk incurred by its length. CarGo's clean injury history, youth, and athleticism reduce the perceived risk of the deal considerably, but other concerns about Gonzalez as a player seem to permeate the online discussion that I've seen. The primary detractors of the deal (and they aren't so much detractors as they are not completely enthused with it) point to two things with CarGo: his limited sample size of success and the seemingly inflated peripherals with which he achieved such success.
The first item definitely gives me pause -- after all, at the trade deadline in 2009 I projected CarGo to be a league average player -- in 2014 -- due to his considerable early struggles and risk of a flameout. While Gonzalez is certainly an above average player with perennial All-Star potential, one has to remember that he's only had one full season of greatness. To refresh your memory, here's a piece I wrote about CarGo's amazing 2010 at the plate.
The second item deals with Gonzalez's weaknesses as a player and is even more concerning to me than his limited sample size. His high K% (career 24.5%) and low BB% (career 6.4%) show me that there is still some work to be done with his plate discipline -- especially with those sliders in the dirt. Furthermore, CarGo's 2010 .384 BABIP suggests that he is a candidate for regression in 2011, though how much is anyone's guess. Gonzalez's excellent career 20.7% line drive rate as well as his exceptional speed would seem to indicate that he will have a higher BABIP than the average player, but something like .350 would probably be more realistic to expect in 2011.
In any case, your opinion of the deal depends mostly on how much you believe in 2010 as an indicator of CarGo's future performance. The fans at Fangraphs project a 5.1 WAR 2011 for Gonzalez, believing him to be a slightly above average fielder but a lesser hitter than he was in 2010. I'd take the over on that projection, since I believe a) that fielding metrics don't capture Coors Field very well, meaning that the value of Gonzalez's (Gold Glove) defense in all three outfield positions is probably underestimated (as it is here in this otherwise fair comparison between the Gonzalez extension and the 6/$51M deal inked by Jay Bruce) and b) that there has been an overcorrection within the sabermetric community due to Gonzalez's insane H/R splits and high BABIP. Gonzalez was the best hitter in baseball during the second half of the season, and to ignore that fact is to seriously underestimate his potential.
Furthermore, I see Gonzalez as the perfect Coors Field hitter, with excellent gap power that allows him to spray out extra base hits seemingly at will. In other words, he's more valuable at Coors Field than he would be at other parks. As a result, I see CarGo providing an average of 5.5 WAR per season to the Rockies over the life of the contract. He might not be worth it each year, and an injury could certainly gum up the works, but the potential is there for much more. After the jump, I'll explain why that makes this extension a fantastic deal financially.
Financial Impact
Before I go into this analysis further, it's important to note that I don't have an exact breakdown of the contract for this analysis. For CarGo's 2011 salary I'm going off the $1 million base plus $3 million bonus salary estimates quoted by Troy Renck today. Also included in that link is an indication that CarGo's three free agent years will be bought out at a rate of about $20 million per year, leaving about $16 million to be spread out through the arbitration years. For simplicity's sake, I've estimated 2012-2014 salaries of $4 million, $6 million, and $6 million.
Providing that this deal does indeed go through (and it should by next week), this extension has a significant impact on the Rockies' budget in the long-term, much like Tulowitzki's deal did. Here is the impact of the deal to the Rockies' long-term salary commitments:
| Player Name | Service Time | 2011 Salary | Additional Min. Obligation | Years After 2011 |
| Todd Helton | 13.059 | $10,600,000 | $9,900,000 | 2 |
| Jorge De La Rosa | 6.015 | $10,500,000 | $11,000,000 | 1 |
| Aaron Cook | 8.02 | $9,250,000 | $500,000 | 0 |
| Huston Street | 6 | $7,300,000 | $8,000,000 | 1 |
| Troy Tulowitzki | 4.033 | $5,500,000 | $152,250,000 | 9 |
| Carlos Gonzalez | 2.06 | $4,000,000 | $76,000,000 | 6 |
| Rafael Betancourt | 7.079 | $3,775,000 | $0 | 0 |
| Jose Lopez | 5.14 | $3,600,000 | $0 | 0 |
| Ty Wigginton | 7.169 | $3,500,000 | $4,500,000 | 1 |
| Ubaldo Jimenez | 3.087 | $2,800,000 | $5,200,000 | 1 |
| Chris Iannetta | 4 | $2,550,000 | $3,800,000 | 1 |
| Ryan Spilborghs | 4.082 | $1,925,000 | $0 | 0 |
| Manuel Corpas | 4.076 | $3,500,000 | $250,000 | 0 |
| Brad Hawpe | 6.054 | $500,000 | $0 | 0 |
| Octavio Dotel | 11.113 | $125,000 | $0 | 0 |
| $69,425,000 | $271,150,000 |
That's a jump up from the $190.65 million figure I quoted after the Tulo/DLR signings. It represents a considerable investment in the future of the franchise by the Monforts.
Unlike the Tulo extension, however, CarGo's deal also has an effect on Colorado's spending this year. In fact, this extension combined with the acquisition of Matt Lindstrom and replacement of Mike McKenry with Jose Morales brings my projected 2011 Opening Day Payroll to $87,918,000 -- which is very similar to Colorado's 2010 end of year payroll ($87,974,390). Barring another bullpen addition, this should pretty much be Colorado's 2011 ODP.
For some more information as to how I arrived at this number (particularly with arbitration award projections), please reference my November State of the Rockies article.
Now, onto an analysis of the contract itself. Here it is in table form, broken out by my projected 5.5 WAR per season and the salary estimates above:
| Carlos Gonzalez | ||||
| Year | Sal (M) | WAR | Val (M) | Net (M) |
| 2011 | $4.0 | 5.5 | $27.7 | $23.7 |
| 2012 | $4.0 | 5.5 | $27.9 | $23.9 |
| 2013 | $6.0 | 5.5 | $27.9 | $21.9 |
| 2014 | $6.0 | 5.5 | $27.9 | $21.9 |
| 2015 | $20.0 | 5.5 | $27.9 | $7.9 |
| 2016 | $20.0 | 5.5 | $27.9 | $7.9 |
| 2017 | $20.0 | 5.5 | $27.9 | $7.9 |
| FA Picks | $5.0 | |||
| Total | $80.0 | 38.5 | $200.1 | $120.1 |
To refresh your memory, the yellow box represents surplus value, or the degree to which Gonzalez will outperform his contract over its life. Yes, that number is huge. I'll explain this a little bit more below.
For this chart, I used $5 million as a value for a win on the free agent market. Likely by 2017 this number will be much higher due to inflation, so locking in a salary now for a potential superstar player as the Rockies did could pay serious dividends going forward. In addition, future money is less expensive to a team than money spent now due to the time value of money. When looking at the deal, it's very important to look at it in three pieces and examine it using opportunity cost (which is how the money could be spent differently and is an additional cost besides salary).
The pre-arbitration phase of the deal is the near-term: paying CarGo $4 million when Colorado could have paid only $425,000 or so. By paying CarGo an extra $3.6 million (most of which is a signing bonus), Colorado uses much of their payroll flexibility for the 2011 season, perhaps forgoing potential improvements to the bullpen. In any case, CarGo should be a bargain for the salary he's being paid this year.
The arbitration phase of the deal, from 2012-2014, is the medium term, during which Gonzalez would have been eligible for salary arbitration. During this phase Colorado will be paying Gonzalez around $16 million over three years, which is an incredible deal. This is especially true if you subscribe to the theory that during their arbitration years players are paid 40%, 60%, and then 80% of their market worth. A 5.5 win player on the open market should theoretically be worth about $28 million per year -- which equates to arbitration payments of $11.2 million, $16.7 million, and $22.3 million during those three seasons. I'm certainly fine if readers balk at the $28 million figure, because it seems pretty high at first blush. Even if you reduce that figure to a more palatable $20 million per annum, a 5.5 win player going through arbitration should be paid $8 million, $12 million, and $16 million during those three seasons. That's a $20 million surplus of payroll flexibility gained by the Rockies instead of going year to year with Gonzalez.
To underscore my point: even if CarGo regresses to a league average player (2 WAR) over the next four years, he will have produced a surplus value of $20 million to Colorado. Actually, if Gonzalez is only a 2 WAR player for the length of the contract (pretty close to the worst case scenario), Colorado only loses about $10 million on the deal, less if inflation comes into play (and it will).
The free agency phase of the deal, from 2015-2017 is the long term, during which Gonzalez would have been paid at the rate at which the market valued him. Again depending on how much you believe a 5.5 win player is valued on the open market, Gonzalez's services could have been had for anywhere between $18 and $30 million per year. The $20 million figure the Rockie have locked in not only provides cost certainty (important when you consider that Tulowitzki will also be making $20 million) but also represents a probable (and considerable) discount towards the Rockies.
In terms of payroll flexibility during the final phase, the cost certainty is nice but the risk is there that CarGo could regress and/or become injured, meaning that a large percentage of Colorado's payroll would be tied down in dead money. At the same time, by signing two potential superstars long-term the Rockies are diversifying their risk. Namely, the chances that both bust and become dead money are very low, with the surplus value of one covering any deficiency of the other in value. Add in Ubaldo Jimenez (ostensibly after next year), and Colorado's money will be tied to three pretty strong pillars for the foreseeable future.
Of course I think that this is a great deal for the Rockies, but at the same time I believe that it's also a pretty darn good deal for the 25 year old Gonzalez, who shouldn't ever have to worry about money again. The trade off of financial security at the risk of future earnings potential is the way that pretty much all of these pre-arbitration contract extensions work -- and in this case it seems to be a great deal for both sides. In fact, if all goes according to plan I foresee the Rockies dominating the West throughout this new decade.
2011 Hall of Fame Balloting
Look today for 2011 Baseball Hall of Fame voting results. I went over my HOF ballot two weeks ago, voting for nine players. I'm cautiously optimistic that Larry Walker will at least garner the 5% of ballots required to remain on the ballot for next year.
ESPN's Jayson Stark is voting for Walker. He's also voting for Jack Morris. Go figure.
The Hardball Times predicted today's HOF results on Monday. They see both Blyleven and Alomar getting in with Larkin and Morris getting in next year.
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I don't know if I've ever seen a projection as optimistic as averaging 5.5WAR a year over a 7 year period
I think it’s almost a best case scenario, realistic perhaps but still at the top end of expectation.
This is true, but actually further evidences the point I was trying to make yesterday, which is..
He doesn’t have to perform at a 5.5 WAR average for this deal to be a financial winner for the club. Heck, an average of 4.0 WAR would make the deal acceptable.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
This
What I believe most people underesimate is hoiw ridiculously expensive a WAR is out in the open market. Although there is more risk involved in locking down players like Cargo and Tulo early, the reward of not having to pay that outrageous $4.5 – $5.0 million per projected WAR point is so high that it could save the Rockies hundreds of millions of dollars over the life of these contracts if they turn out right.
87 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 8:44 AM MST up reply actions
And when I say hundreds of millions, I'm including the extra revenue the Rockies should generate from these deals.
87 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 8:46 AM MST up reply actions
Get some TV money
It would be good to see the Rox land some large TV contracts., similar to what the East Coast and West Coast teams enjoy.
by Real Perspective on Jan 5, 2011 9:58 AM MST up reply actions
That's not gonna happen in this market
But there is still room for improvement.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Well, that's always been their intention
However, there’s not exactly big TV ratings to be had in Wyoming, the western half of Nebraska, and Utah.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
While not huge, the SLC media market is ranked like #32.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
Not dissing SLC's market size, but this...
the local cable ratings for a baseball team in a #30 something media market are simply not going to match those from a top ten media market.
And even if the ratings % matches, the actual number of eyeballs will be nowhere near, so the actual impact on TV revenue isn’t “minimal”, but it’s not that big, either
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
You're absolutely right.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:43 AM MST up reply actions
I agree that it's not big
but when you are adding SLC and the state of Utah to the Denver viewing it does help quite a bit.
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
It will help
However, expecting the actual ratings in SLC to equal those in Denver is unrealistic under any circumstance. Even if SLC adopts the Rox as “their” team, that would be akin to assuming Omaha, NE can have as many Cardinals fans as St. Louis has.
But absolutely, getting an SLC affiliate would help the overall TV revenue picture, for certain.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Well, all of the games are already broadcast here on FSNRM/Utah,
so it’s kind of a moot point.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:53 AM MST up reply actions
Once the market grows, it can grow further more easily.
Also, at the margins, even the addition of a small number of customers can make a real difference. I wouldn’t downplay this strategy.
Ladies and Gentleman, I present to you your Salt Lake City Rockies of Colorado!
Yes, absolutely
I thought we were talking about how to increase Rockies’ TV revenue to match the big market clubs.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
That will never happen. Without 3 straight WS wins.
cosidering LA and orange county ha 13 million(notcounting the inland empire) and CO,UT,ID,WY,1/2 of kansas and NE is barely 11mil.
I do know this: they REALLY need to continue establishing themselves here in Salt Lake
Start with getting a radio deal. End with moving the Triple-A team here. After all, this area is Denver Jr.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
I’m shocked the Rockies don’t have any affiliate stations in Utah. I know they’re pretty well represented in Wyoming and southern Montana, and in western Kansas. The station I’m at is one of only two affiliates in Nebraska.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Yeah it's kind of ridiculous...
I know in the organization’s infancy, we had their games broadcasted on the radio (and even on a local TV station, before the whole FSN deal). It has been a long time, though.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:22 AM MST up reply actions
You would think there would be a way to simulcast the games on Fox sports utah
Not sure how that works out legally. I agree that the AAA team should be moved to SLC
Oh they are...
I was just throwing the TV part in there. We get all the FSN games that you do.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
I do believe that's what Keli McGregor was doing in Salt Lake when he died.
Negotiating with potential affiliates in Utah.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 10:25 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah he was. Also meeting with the Salt Lake Bees...
…who later ended up having their PDC extended by the Angels.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
...who later ended up having their PDC extended by the Angels
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:35 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah...fairly recently. I just looked it up - through 2014.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 10:39 AM MST up reply actions
By the Angels, IIRC
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
For how long?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Bazinga!!
SD Cat 09 and Time Away From Purple Row are still awesome
Colorado may not have as many fans
At least there will be a little respect coming from the other side. And Colorado fans tend to be pretty active. Would like to see if any of this translates into increased ratings.
by Real Perspective on Jan 5, 2011 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
Well, FSRM's ratings have gone up over the last couple of years
As far as it’s market is concerned, baseball is actually getting decent ratings. I’m just saying, that it’s not going to translate into the kinda $$$ that the huge market teams get for their TV, because the market is just smaller.
Also, there’s the sorta sweetheart deals, because if my memory serves, FSRM owns about 10% of the ballclub.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
yep
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
I believe the tv contract with FSRM is a long one
Like through 2017 or something like that. Can they renegotiate revenues mid contract?
How can you forget Venezuela?
Partner with a tv station in Venenzuela and the pipeline is gonna burst open flowing with Latin players wanting to play for the Rockies.
by Rocky Mountain High on Jan 5, 2011 3:36 PM MST up reply actions
We'll have ever Cargo and Chacin there is
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2011 8:35 AM MST up reply actions
I agree, mostly because
I don’t think factoring in age related decline is useful considering how he’ll be signed exactly through his prime years. I usually feel that age 32 is the last good season before age starts to become an issue. Additionally, I think he can improve and get his walk rate above 8% (maybe not next year but at some point when there’s still a significant portion of his contract remaining).
I’m confused as to how I’ve seen it written that this contract was somewhat foolish because he’s had 2 full seasons in the majors (one of which had a flukey-high BABIP) thus its risky but no mention of the fact that as he’s only had 2 full seasons, he can still improve. Maybe improve doesn’t mean 7 or 8 WAR seasons, but maybe it means another 6 WAR season with a .330 BABIP.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Right
but lack of experience is two-sided and only the downside of his lack of experience has been acknowledged, not the upside. Personally, the analysis of Cargo has seemed a bit lazy and its just consisted of his BABIP was too high (which i could have told myself when i looked at his player page), and that Jay Bruce and Dustin Pedroia signed better deals.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Additionally
and I don’t know how much weight this should carry, but the guy has had about 2 full seasons or as you pointed out, 1 full and 2 halves – so basically 3 separate incidents for him to establish himself, and every one of those has been better than the last (except for defense I guess). This isn’t to say that I think he’ll continuously improve and make this the best extension ever, but rather I’m just annoyed that there hasn’t been a whisper of this at all…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I think it's the kind of deal that serves to feed into confirmation bias pretty well on both sides (those that like it, and those that don't)
which indicates to me that it’s probably pretty close to a true market value for the contract. The detractors also seem to be comparing it to deals where players are really getting screwed over by their teams (Longoria, Bruce and Braun, for instance) and find it lacking, while the supporters are pointing out 1) it’s Scott Boras, of course it was going to be higher, and 2) it’s still a good value.
I agree with biondino, the projection is probably a bit purple tinted, even if there’s a reasonable chance that he can produce to that degree.
I kind of hate the fact
that rather than analyze the deal in its own right, fangraphs just decided to analyze it compared to the Bruce deal. The Bruce deal has no impact on this being a smart move or not for the Rockies.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
exactly, nor does the Pedroia deal which Dave Cameron just brought up in a chat there
Just because other teams employ idiots for players doesn’t make this a bad deal. It just makes those other guys seem even more idiotic for choosing to play with the teams that they did.
Plus
the Rockies are trying to do something the Reds and Sox aren’t necessarily trying to do, which is build a (winning)brand. The Sox are the Sox and the Reds, while having been pretty poor the past decade, still have a pretty solid place in history. it wouldn’t surprise me if the org is willing to pay a bit more since they have more at stake.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
So $88M ODP?
That’s a $2 million bump from where they were projecting it to be earlier in the offseason, and it’s probably an indication of the season ticket boost when Tulo signed, and maybe an anticipated similar bump with CarGo.
Certainly a possibility, however, I think at this point...
A Tulo-ticket bump would exceed an expected Cargo-ticket bump, just because of Tulo’s longer tenure here, and greater name recognition. Tulo’s already pretty much up to Helton status, and while CarGo may well become an icon, it’s still only been a year or so.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
and because Tulo's came first
Of the pool of people likely to rush to buy tickets solely off a name recognized player signing when he would have already been here, many may have already done so.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 8:04 AM MST up reply actions
I don't know about that, I think they might be similar.
I think there are different demographics each player appeals to (I’m not only talking about the Latino impact with Gonzalez, but that is there, Gillette knows it too) and I think you can see the evidence of this here on PR in the last couple of days. We’ve had a bunch of new posters come in with the Gonzalez extension.
Plus getting Cargo on the front page of the Post
is always good for publicity. Part of the ticket sales comes from the public being reminded that we exist.
His publicity is valuable
Every time the young man’s face shows up on TV or major magazine, the Rockies cash in.
by Real Perspective on Jan 5, 2011 9:59 AM MST up reply actions
What I havent seen mentioned
is the potential for his walk rate to improve. It improved substantially as the 2010 season progressed – even after taking out intentional walks. Also, last year the walk rate was 8.8% and in the minors, 9.9%.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
/changes byline of drafted player review from ATF to resolution
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 8:50 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Wait, what does this mean?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
maybe you should write his article for him?
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
oooo
Was his bb rate going to be talked about ATF? My bad
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
It started to improve during last season
If I throw out the intentional walks, his BB rate month by month looks like this.
April: 2.4%
May: 4.7%
June: 1.9%
July: 4.5 %
August: 8.6%
September: 8.1%
Remember that early last season the Rockies asked Cargo to bat leadoff (and even 5th sometimes) before moving him to third in the order about the time Tulo went down. At first he had no protection but once Tulo came back on July 27th, Cargo’s BB% skyrocketed.
87 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 9:11 AM MST up reply actions
This exactly!
All of the talk is about regression completely leaving out a chance for improvement. There are areas for improvement available. You can look for Walk rate to increase and he can also lower his k rate. I also think his power numbers, OBP, and RBI totals are all likely areas to go up in 2011. His spot in the lineup could help dramatically as well as continued overall development at the plate.
In other news
Adrian Beltre doesn’t like to have his head touched
87 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 8:49 AM MST reply actions
Reminds me of what I do to my cats
run up, poke them in the belly, and try to get out before the claws get me.
Wow, what is his problem?
The funny part is everyone knows he hates it and continue to touch him… Its like poking a sleeping bear.
"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle
This is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time
He hates it so much he would throw down to keep people from touching his head.
I find this prediction to be incredibly optimistic
the following players have exceeded an average of 5.5 WAR the previous 7 seasons:
Albert Pujols
Alex Rodriguez
Chase Utley
Lower that number to the past 5 years and we include:
Hanley Ramirez
Miguel Cabrera
Matt Holliday
David Wright
Joe Mauer
These are all superstars of the game, but it’s just incredibly tough to maintain that level of production over such a long period.
I find it impossible very difficult to believe that Cargo will produce 120M in surplus value on the field over the next seven years, though I am willing to accept that his value to the Rockies franchise may approach that number over the life of the contract.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
How many of those hitters are 5-tool players like CarGo..
The way he plays Cargo reminds me of 1992 Griffey. Good arm, smooth fielder and hits with power. For fun check out Griffeys 92-99 WAR numbers to see what Cargo’s skillset is capable of and you’ll see 5.5 is a modest projection.
@charliedrysdale
by Charlie77 on Jan 5, 2011 12:52 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I agree but this is somewhat dangerous
as Griffey was still all around better – he just had more of what Cargo has – (much) more walks, less strikeouts, and more power. Griffey was also much more established by age 25 and had a pedigree CarGo doesn’t.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
so we should all
be very excited to see Carlos’ son play (assuming he has a son that plays baseball)?
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Didn't you hear?
DOD just signed CarGo’s son to an 8-year deal worth 60 mill. It’ll take him through his age 12 season.
I don’t like the deal though personally – the son didn’t show the improvements i hoped as he transitioned from tee ball to live pitching. Also, Ryan Braun’s son signed a similar deal for 20 mill less.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
It's funny you say that
Last summer my father, who is a big baseball fan but doesn’t follow the Rockies at all saw one game last summer and said…….
“You know who that Gonzalez guy you have reminds me of?”
“Who?”
“Ken Griffy Jr.”
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 1:07 PM MST up reply actions
Sometimes it's nice to just forget about SABR and use the old eyeball test.
@charliedrysdale
by Charlie77 on Jan 6, 2011 12:44 AM MST up reply actions 3 recs
5.5 WAR per year is unjustifiable.
5.5 WAR per year is an insane projection. Even if you think that’s his true ability now, which is dubious enough in its own right, you can’t forecast him not to lose anything at all over the next seven years.
I’ve got CarGo projected at 4.6 WAR for 2011, 3.7 WAR over the life of the contract… and this still comes out as the best deal of the offseason. Here’s my offseason signings spreadsheet, if anyone’s interested.
The biggest key to understanding this offseason is that the market rate is higher than people seem to think. $5 million per win is way low. I’ve got it at $5.75m/win, based on all the signings thus far. And there’s no chance that I’m undershooting everyone’s projected WAR to any significant degree, because if that were the case, my league totals would be screwed up.
that should obviously say...
… 3.7 WAR per year over the life of the contract (25.8 WAR total)…
I basically agree with all of this
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
This looks a lot better.
I know my in own biased view was envisioning 30 WAR as “reasonable” and thought that would be high according to a neutral projection system. 38.5 is extreme, but like you, I could see him being that “valuable” to the franchise itself just because I think there’s some pretty clear albeit circumstantial evidence that position players contribute surplus gate revenue here.
These numbers seems awfully pessimistic to me
According to this, no player signed or traded this offseason other than Cliff Lee will average above 4.0 WAR per season and only three players will average above a 3.0 WAR per season. I’d be willing to bet anything I own that that won’t be the case.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 9:24 AM MST up reply actions
You're no doubt right,
but the problem is that those players that do outperform these projections will be the exceptions, just as those that crash and burn and underperform. Most will fall right into these lines. Identifying the positive exceptions and staying away from the bad apples is where GM’s will earn their money.
Well then these projections are more an average of what everyone will do (or have done to this point in their careers) than a prediction
I appreciate the effort Heltonfan put into these projections but I’d use them more to say Cliff Lee is going to provide the most WAR per season of anybody signed/traded this offseason (4.13), Tulo the second most (3.84), Cargo third (3.69), Adrian Gonzalez 4th (2.98), Jorge De La Rosa 5th (2.94)…………………….
/Holy COW!!!!!!! We did pretty damn well this offseason.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 9:44 AM MST up reply actions
To finish the thought
I use them more for that than the exact WAR numbers they spit out.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
Agone is underated
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
He hasn't signed an extension yet, and despite RIRf's mentioning trade, the spreadsheet doesn't actually include those.
He’d probably be pretty high on a WAR/season contract list, I’m guessing, once he does sign.
A-Gon's on the spreadsheet
I included him because I was curious, and because he’s a significant data point in establishing what the market rate is… I’m assuming the rumored 7/154 extension, starting in 2012.
Re: RIRF’s comments on the projections seeming low, the important thing here is aging. I have A-Gon projected at 4.9 WAR for 2011, which basically entails repeating his 2010 offensive performance (I think everyone will agree that that’s reasonable), but with normal aging, he’s down to 2.2 WAR by 2016, and 0.5 WAR by 2018. Hence the seemingly low yearly average. You can’t expect anyone to average 4 WAR per year from age 30-36 unless they’re starting at a near-Pujolsian baseline.
And again, it’s not possible that my projections are collectively low, because if they were, I’d be able to see that from the league totals.
Okay, I just missed him, and that explanation makes sense.
I guess he could be a possible overperformer, although I doubt it. I think Boston picked him up for the next couple of seasons while he’s still in his peak, and they have the revenue to cover the downslope.
but his first three years at Fenway could be monstrous enough to bring up his 6-7 year WAR average
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
I'm not arguing that your mean WAR total is too low
I’m arguing that your range of WAR projections is too low.
Also, you say that you “can’t expect anyone to average 4 WAR per year from age 30-36 unless they’re starting at a near-Pujolsian baseline” and yet you have Cliff Lee averaging 4.13 WAR per year from age 32 to 36. As good as Cliff Lee is, I don’t think he’s the Pujols of pitching. Guys like Halladay, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, and even Ubaldo are just as good.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 10:17 AM MST up reply actions
Cliff Lee is an enigma and should be exempt from this conversation.
His career is completely unique.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
the problem with that statement (while I agree with it)
is that once you allow for it, suddenly all the homers come out of the woodwork and claim their player is special and exempt.
by Andrew Martin on Jan 5, 2011 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
Well
If the mean is correct, but the range is too low, that would mean that in addition to the guys I’m underselling, there are also a slew of guys who I’m overprojecting. Which is certainly something I’ve never been accused of. You won’t find a less optimistic set of projections than mine anywhere.
Right, Lee isn’t the Pujols of pitching. Felix is. But Lee is, as you said, right there with Halladay/Ubaldo/Lincecum, which puts him a tier above Gonzalez (unless you think Gonzalez belongs in the Mauer/Longoria/Tulo tier among position players, rather than the Votto/Holliday/Cabrera tier? Doubtful).
Anyway, Lee is projected 1 win better than Gonzalez for 2011, and since his contract is “only” five years, he still projects to be a league-average pitcher in the final year. That’s the big difference here, the length of the deals.
yeah
because he’s a 1B, and because his true talent level as a hitter is probably around his 2009 level, not what he did last year. I have him projected as the third-best hitter in the game (behind Pujols and Cabrera), and the #8 overall position player, so it’s not like I’m really bearish on him or anything.
Out of curiosity
Do you have a list projecting the 15/20 best hitters in the game?
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
top 20 hitters
In order:
Pujols, Albert
Cabrera, Miguel
Votto, Joey
Gonzalez, Adrian
Mauer, Joe
Longoria, Evan
Fielder, Prince
Morneau, Justin
Ramirez, Hanley
Youkilis, Kevin
Choo, Shin-Soo
Tulowitzki, Troy
Holliday, Matt
Hamilton, Josh
Braun, Ryan
Gonzalez, Carlos
Bautista, Jose
Wright, David
Teixeira, Mark
Zimmerman, Ryan
Or just check out the NEIFI Projections spreadsheet, which has WAR projections as well…
by Heltonfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:07 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I think this is a good call
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks
I think this is a pretty solid list. I’ll give you a rec just for doing all that work.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
Oh and just to continue to be a pain
Why is Tulo’s age listed as 27 when he’s only 26?
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
But you're aging him by 10 months!!
That’s almost a whole year of youth lost….
That ain’t right…:P
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Got ya
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:19 AM MST up reply actions
Knowing how there's variation,
What % chance do you think there is that Gonzalez is actually in the top 10?
I guess why I ask is because I think that there’s a pretty solid shot that he’s a bit better hitter than his aggregate MLB line would indicate. I think most 2011 projections for him might be undershooting his true BABIP ability, which I know sounds kind of nuts since most are in the .350 range on it, but I’m guessing it’s actually going to be quite a bit higher than that. Possibly around .370 even with regression.
Laser = High BABIP
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
well, actually yeah...
Since his call-up in July 2009, his BABIP has been .379 (the best of all time for a career is Ty Cobb at .372, btw). What’s more, since then CarGo’s road BABIP has been higher than the .350 overall projection. His lowest month is .324 (July 2009) and he’s had as many months over .400 (including the NLDS in Sep. 2009’s numbers) than under .350. We can’t ignore 2008 and early 2009, but if it’s seen as an adjustment phase, and this last part of his career more in line with what we’ll see during his peak, he’s going to be right up there. Obviously his home park’s helping a lot with this.
this is why I'm a Cargo optimist
and while it would be impossible for his line drive rate to improve his pitch recognition can improve lowering his k rate and increasing OBP.
Those are good numbers
The splits you bring up, while small, seem to indicate that the BABIP numbers Cargo put up last season may not be as fluky as some might think because he didn’t accumulate it all in one spot. Instead, it’s more consistent from month to month with an extrememly high floor. It’s that high floor of .324 that I think is most important; you don’t just have nine straight months with a BABIP of .324 or higher unless something special is going on. Nobody’s that lucky.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:55 AM MST up reply actions
This and the better than people realize road numbers was where I was going with that.
The longer it continues like this, the more likely that it’s a skill that’s being replicated rather than randomness.
What odd is that his home/road BABIP
splits are so close and yet his overall home/road splits are night and day.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:10 PM MST up reply actions
The extra 27 strikeouts on the road didn't help him much
this last year
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
I'm guessing his power splits have a lot to do with that
26:8 HRs
.737:.453 SLG
.357:.164 ISO
Hes just hitting the ball out of the park more at home. Add that to the strikeouts and thats probably the cause
Considering that
about 27 of those away games came in NL West pitchers parks the power splits might be off a little bit.
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
If half those home hr's
became doubles, where does that leave him?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
at second base
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
by Muzia on Jan 5, 2011 12:39 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
One day Muzia
right to the moon!
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
HAHA
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:48 PM MST up reply actions
BABIP
On the one hand, CarGo’s BABIP is crazy. NEIFI looks at singles rate rather than BABIP specifically… CarGo had more singles above expectation than any other NL hitter except Omar Infante. He clearly has nowhere to go but down in that regard.
On the other hand, his projection certainly isn’t being killed by an expected BABIP regression. I have him projected at .304… if I were to take his 2010 BABIP completely at face value, that would go up to .306. Basically, because 1) it’s only one year of data and 2) I’m already giving him credit for like 80% of that BABIP anyway, it doesn’t make much difference.
But there’s got to be a pretty good chance that he’s a top 10 hitter… maybe 30%? If the power he showed last year is for real, he’s a slam dunk, no questions asked top 10 guy.
Oh I think you're absolutely overprojecting some players;
but it’s not your fault. Some guys will suffer huge injuries while a few others will just inexplicably flame out dragging down the overall mean. The problem is there’s no way to adequately predict who these players are so it’s not even worth trying.
The issue I have is that a byproduct of accounting for all these injuries, flame outs, ect….. is that your projections come out too low for the best players in the game because there’s not enough WAR points to go around if you don’t know who it is that’s going to get injured/underperform. If healthy (which is something I like to assume a player will be when making projections), I think guys like Cargo, Tulo, and AGone will exceed these projections.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 10:51 AM MST up reply actions
This is one of the fundamental issues in projections...
Should a set of projections reflect the most accurate over/unders for each individual player, or should the projections reflect the distribution of performance as observed over a typical season? Those are very different things. The same thing goes for team projections… the spread of projected team W-L records is always smaller than the actual spread at the end of the year (making them look “boring”), but the realistic over/under… well, it is what it is, and you disagree with it at your peril.
Bottom line, no system tries to guess at breakouts, injuries, flameouts, etc., and if one did, it would end up looking absolutely ridiculous.
Very fair
I’d rather see a projection with more WAR points awarded than actually exist with a note that says some players will miss time/flame out lowering their overall WAR because I think that most players who stay healthy will outperform their WAR projections the way you do it.
I probably only feel this way though because I’m A) an optimist and B) have a short attention span. :-)
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:26 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah, it's probably an optimistic projection. But it's one that Gonzalez could meet pretty handily if his defensive metrics improve.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
you bet
Park and era adjusted. So you can compare cargo at coors to Jackie Robinson at Ebbets Field if you want.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 9:21 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Character is everything
We have spoken a lot about Cargo’s WAR and playing ability, but bloggers have only mentioned his character in passing. The Rox had some difficulties with a pitcher named Neagle not long ago, and other teams have taken hits from the media because they have a player who does not behave himself in public very well. We have witnessed what happened to a well known golfer in recent months. Manny of Mannywood also seemed to be swept up in himself as to forget about perceived character issues.
So far Cargo seems like a great player in the character category. A question would be can the young man handle the international media hype, the star status, the repeated interviews, seeing his picture everywhere all the time, and all of the other superstar attention? Even if he plays well, will he remain a fan favorite?
This is something DOD and staff (as well as the Monforts) need to be thinking of, and make sure their young superstar is prepared for this type of life — the fast lane mentality. Helton has served as a good role model in this category. Will his legacy carry over to Cargo?
by Real Perspective on Jan 5, 2011 10:10 AM MST reply actions
I believe Tulo has a mojor hand in continuing this trend,
As the team leader i get the feeling that he controls the clubhouse and the attitude.
I like Cargo's character
but I didn’t mention it because the last time I tried to talk about how much I liked a player’s character it nearly caused a war so I kept my mouth shut instead.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 10:20 AM MST up reply actions
Nah
It was a Tulo debate
/Shocking I know :-)
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
I'm glad to see people saying they like Cargo's character
because that’s the only thing that has me really concerned about this deal. 7 years is a really long contract to give a player who’s had one great year after several questions about his drive and discipline in other organizations. This wasn’t an issue with the Tulo deal because Tulo is probably one of the more driven players in the history of the game. I don’t know Cargo personally, but from what I’ve read it was a reason behind his history of being traded.
What turned things around here?
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
I think it was
after being traded that he decided he didn’t want that anymore. If he could prove himself to be a hard worker and one of the best players on the team or in the game he wouldn’t have to go through that any more. I think he worked his tail off to get the long-term contract so he wouldn’t have to be traded anymore and he realizes that he has to keep his value up to prevent being traded again. He knows what was said about him and he didn’t appreciate it. I look forward to his work ethic over the next 7 years and having him in front of Troy for all 7.
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
I think this is a good explanation
Whenever Cargo talks about being traded twice, he doesn’t speak about it in a positive light. Some probably thought he was an entitled punk because of this but he seems rather genuine to me.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 10:56 AM MST up reply actions
I don't think motivation should be a problem...
especially since we got Tulo in the background rallying everyone.
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
by Colsportsfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:16 PM MST up reply actions
Why would we only pay him $16 mil through arbitration and then $20 mil each of his three FA years?
Shouldn’t we spread the cost around a little more evenly so we don’t have 40% (assuming a $100mil payroll in 2015-2017) tied up between two players?
What are the benefits of doing the contract like that instead of say 4,6,10,12,14,14,20?
Because it's possibly the only way the deal gets done
Because if he continues on this path, he’d get a $20m starting salary as of 2015.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
hes still making the same total and he'd be getting more money up front
I would think money now would be better than money later. Is it a pride thing? He would want to be one of the few ball players making $20m a year?
No, I understand what you're saying
Same dollars, same AAV, and all.
But here’s where I’m going with this. I think the Rox decided they weren’t going for more total $$$ than they did. But in order to get Cargo to sign, they had to offer Cargo what he could make during those specific years, were he to leave.
Just my opinion.
One other aspect of this…unless there’s a blanket no trade (which we know there isn’t), this puts out the greater dollars towards the end of the contract, in the case of an eventual need or desire to trade (extremely unlikely, but not utterly impossible).
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Amazing chart at Beyond the Box Score
A game by game depiction of the 2010 NL West race.
(Make sure to click on the asset to enlarge it)
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
by Muzia on Jan 5, 2011 11:41 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
that was awesome
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Even though I knew it wasn't going to
I was still rooting for the Purple bar to go above zero right at the end there.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
The last 10% of that was horrific.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
I chuckled in the 130s
Every bar moved dramatically thanks to the padres
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:11 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That would also be really awesome in line graph form
On the y axis you have the number of games a team is above or below .500 (ranging from -40 to positive 40 or something like that) and on the x axis you have the game numbers going up to 162.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:20 PM MST up reply actions
May need to modify "the face of the franchise" concept
Looks like the new “face of the franchise” is actually two faces, Tulo’s and Cargo’s. Understand the two, with a hopefully a third in Ubaldo, will sell a lot of cracker jacks.
by Real Perspective on Jan 5, 2011 11:55 AM MST reply actions
Larry Walker
20.3% of vote.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
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Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
Very nice, imho
He’ll have a pretty decent chance of getting in, in a few years (hopefully)
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Newly eligible guys
in 2012 don’t look good. 2013 has all those questionable guys.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
He won't get in next year, though
But maybe the lack of candidates next year gets him up to 40% or so, making him a real outside possibility for 2013.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
I can't wait for 2013
It’s gonna be a brouhaha
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:13 PM MST up reply actions
Yay
He’s going in, in a few years.
Blyleven and Alomar got in this year.
Yay for Bert
People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 5, 2011 12:13 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yay for Bert, truly
Well deserved.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
heh
I tweeted an hour ago that I was hoping for 20% and would consider that mark a victory.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:14 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
wooohhooooooo
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
InsidetheRox TRADE RUMOR
If you read the CarGo thread, you’ll see one “EdtheUmp” yesterday saying that a “BIG” trade is in the works. It’s gotten the thread all lathered up. This morning, Ed is not retracting his hint of a trade, but saying it may not be announced until after the CarGo signing (though he says he hopes it’s earlier).
Based on what Ed has written, it’s definitely a trade, not a signing. He has shared specifics by e-mail only with Steve Foster of that site. Steve, after he was informed by Ed, would only say that the trade is something that had been discussed on InsidetheRox in the past couple months.
Wonder what this is? My guesses are it’s one of three trades:
1. Michael Young
2. Justin Upton
3. Gavin Floyd
I can’t think of other trade chatter that has occurred in recent months. Anyone care to speculate, because Ed said we’d all be VERY happy!
Yeah, well, the first question is
“who the hell is Ed”.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
A guy from Greeley....
who claims to have inside sources (Monforts?). There is some credibility to it. Steve is credible, and seems to believe what he’s telling him.
Its quite tasty, ain't it?
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
by Colsportsfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:34 PM MST up reply actions
Guys who claim to have inside sources often don't
That’s all I’m saying.
And there’s no way in hell the team takes on any more payroll in 2011 after the Cargo deal.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Also...
Mowing the Monfort’s lawn in June doesn’t give one inside information.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
I went to school with Dick Monfort's sons
Both were constantly bombarded for inside info, so (I think) they just started making up rumors or targets. None of them ever came true. I doubt they knew much anyway.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:19 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
this
Is he another “Oakland F’s” or another “ice9286” or whatever. I have a really hard time seeing a trade happening.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:13 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
reads like more the former than the latter.
The offer to buy beer at ST leads me to think he’s got a fairly legit source somewhere. I know what beer costs at sporting events, and that’s a lot of Rockies fans to be making that offer to.
I’m guessing it’s the Michael Young for Charlie Blackmon deal, but how it would work with the budget I still haven’t figured out.
if it is true, ed needs to learn to protect his sources better
If the Rockies are set to make a huge trade, whistleblowing can’t help them.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:27 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
If Ed doesn't protect his sources any better...
Charlie and Dick won’t let him clean their pool any longer.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
We've seen that as an organization, they're not the best at keeping secrets this winter.
Not the worst, either, but they certainly aren’t good at being the “mystery team”.
The Tulo extension came out of nowhere though
So did the JDLR sign. They deserve a huge amount of credit for that.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:34 PM MST up reply actions
sign signing
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:35 PM MST up reply actions
JDLR's deal wasn't completely out of nowhere,
I guess it was if you relied too much on the Denver Post opinion, which has been missing pretty badly this winter, but the Rockies were known to be a viable contender for him according to everybody else. The Tulo deal did surprise, though.
I’m not going to give them too much credit for keeping a lid on leaks until I see more evidence that they deserve it more than most clubs (like say the Phillies with Cliff Lee). That said, I’m in the camp that I also don’t think some telegraphing of the team’s moves and interests is necessarily a bad thing, and could be beneficial at times from a PR standpoint.
"...could be beneficial at times from a PR standpoint"
PR=public relations, or
PR=PurpleRow
???
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
PR is a PR firm, of sorts.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
That's why I wan't sure from the context...
It makes a lot of sense either way!
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
I think the JDLR signing was a pretty big surprise
Yes we wanted to retain him but it never looked like we were the leaders in that race.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:50 PM MST up reply actions
yeah Renck made it seem he was certain to be gone
It definitely surprised me.
The Beltre signing makes me believe that Young is going somewhere
He seems like overkill on the Rnagers now.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:36 PM MST up reply actions
In fact I wonder if Cook would go in that deal
Texas needs pitching and the Rockies would need to dump Cook’s salary if they aquired Young.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:38 PM MST up reply actions
I prefer Young and Francis....
to Cooks for THIS year. It’s the following two years where Young is pricey.
Except Francis isn't a Rockie
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Ironic
I would find it ironic if Francis went to the Royals to ressurect his career after JDR came here from KC and ressurected his
Some hope?
by rockiesfan4ever on Jan 5, 2011 12:43 PM MST up reply actions
Francis WANTS to sign here....
he just needs assurance of rotation spot and he will be back. He’s loyal to the Rockies, and wouldn’t cost a lot.
either way Francis
loses a friend in Cook
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Ya
I just saw the rumors about the Royals’ interest and I laughed
Some hope?
by rockiesfan4ever on Jan 5, 2011 12:46 PM MST up reply actions
why?
I think Young’s pretty close to perfect for Coors field with the LD+GB rate he has. He’d do a lot of damage here.
We wouldn't do that without having another pitcher signed
If Francis was already on the books, I’d actually think that was halfway likely.
Also, I really feel having Lopez makes Young much less likely.
Unless Texas eats a ton of money, and I’m not sure I see that.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Plus, I think Francis my re-sign with us...
if a rotation slot opens up. He’s probably waiting to sign with someone else to see what we do. He’s loyal to the Rockies.
He doesn't owe the Rockies anything
They neglected to pick up his option, so it’s not like they did him any favours. If he wants to stay at Coors it’s because he’s happy there or whatever, but to assume loyalty will come into it is naive (unless, say, no-one picks him up and he ends up with a few minor league offers, in which case the Rox may well be the most appealing).
I'm not saying it's likely
I’m just pointing out those those pieces line up and wouldn’t be an outrageous starting point for a trade. IF this thing does heat up, I’m guessing this is where the discussions begin.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
You're probably right about it being Young....
Since Renck wrote yesterday that a Young trade is extremely unlikely, that’s probably what happens. Renck has been the kiss of death (or is it “kiss of life”?) to deals this winter.
Link
http://www.insidetherockies.com/2011/01/03/gonzalez-close-to-extension-with-rockies/
If you read all of Ed’s posts there, he sounds at least like a sincere guy who truly believes he knows something. Whether it’s true…..well, Steve wrote he’d give Ed credit on the blog if it comes to pass.
Steve Foster's responses seem to suggest that something has legs, at the very least.
Something to keep an eye on.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
Personally, I'm hoping for a blockbuster, something like...
Floyd and Beckham for Stewart, Cook, Rogers, Morales, and EY2. If we got Beckham, Lopez would start most games at 3rd (where he played excellent defense last year), and Beckham would be the everyday 2nd baseman.
That would be a severe overpay on our part
And why would the White Sox take on Cook’s salary?
That said, I’d be pretty happy with it.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Not an overpay...
if The ChiSox took Cook’s contract off our hands with minimal cash considerations on our part. Beckham is a future star, and EY2 is an obvious trade chip as odd man out this year.
I have certainly learned
after all the Giambi stuff two years ago, not to immediately dismiss a rumor from a random poster on a Rockies blog. That said, I doubt anything happens.
And yet, the truth is that most rumors are still patently untrue
Freddy Sanchez, yo.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
perhaps it was initially true then dod wisened up
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:31 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Except there's never been anything to actually evidence that, at all
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
well no, but we probably hear about less than 10%
Of what is actually discussed between teams.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
And the same goes for reporters, except it's maybe 20%
…which leaves it up to reporters to make up all kindsa crap. And sometimes it turns out to be true, solely because it’s a trade that actually makes sense, and it being “rumored” is kinda a non-sequitur.
Unless we’re told by an unidentified “Ed” somewhere
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Freddy Sanchez WS rings - 1
Rockies – 0
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
While I would be shocked, I have been already with the DLR/Tulo/Cargo extention
Although I won’t like it if it is Young and will if it is Napoli or Floyd
Same boat here...
WANT NAPOLI/FLOYD. NO WANT YOUNG.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 12:43 PM MST up reply actions
If there is a trade....
I really hope it is not Young, he just doesn’t fit anywhere. An Outfielder or a Starting Pitcher would make more sense.
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
He fits perfectly at 1B. We'd go from near replacement level there to three plus wins.
The problem is that the three places he fits best are three of the trickier decisions the team faces.
C: Iannetta
1B: Helton
2B: Lopez
SS: Tulo
3B: Stewart
LF: CarGo
CF: Dex
RF: Smith
Why not
Young at 2b and Lopez the backup MI?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
that's likely what the team will say it's doing with this trade.
That’s good politics, but I think the reality will be that we’ll see both Young and Lopez in the starting lineup frequently, especially against LHP’s.
The problem with Stewart is, the Rangers have no use for him in trade
I don’t see Smith as such a difficult decision, except that I don’t see Young in RF, either.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Stewart wouldn't have to get traded at the same time.
I don’t think the Rockies intend on moving him, but if they were thinking 3B with this, it’s not that hard to envision a second trade with another team for Ian.
Like I say, though, I think this move would really be about the right side of the infield, and the defensive attributes Young has (a strong arm in particular) would fit okay in RF. The person it really makes superfluous, though, is Wigginton. In just about every way Young would be an improvement over him and both are right-handed.
Although I have to say after looking through some media reports, Napoli is making more sense as a possibility. The Angels beat writer at mlb.com keeps on talking about how his trade stock went up last season, including in yesterday’s arbitration article, and the projected salary crunch outlined in the article are both further tells that the Angels are still shopping him.
Also, the Soriano to the White Sox rumors are indicative that Floyd’s probably still available too. How about the Rockies trade for all three? Stewart to the White Sox for Floyd, Blackmon and Cook to the Rangers for Young, and Esmil Rogers to the Angels for Napoli. Bam. World Series. Done.
You're hired!
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
I would totally be down with Napoli
And yeah, Wiggington would totally be the odd man out in either scenario, but that raises the question of why would we have even gotten Wiggington in the first place, then? Seems to me he was the fall back position after not getting the other guys.
From a baseball standpoint, all three of those trades make sense. I just don’t see all that happening, in an already extremely busy offseason. Of course, that thought has no basis in any specific knowledge at all.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Yeah, I don't think so...
the team is pretty much done.
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
by Colsportsfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:22 PM MST up reply actions
BilltheDentist
He cleans Charlie Monforts teeth twice a year
The Accountant to the Monforts
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
by Colsportsfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:59 PM MST up reply actions
that's what you WANT to happen
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 12:35 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I would want...
Napoli for Alan Johnson
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
by Colsportsfan on Jan 5, 2011 12:37 PM MST up reply actions
I really hope Alan Johnson knows he's a big thing on PR
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
I would want...
Alan Johnson in the starting rotation immediately.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 12:43 PM MST up reply actions
All kidding aside, if the Rockies find themselves needing a Harikkala-esque spot start,
he’d fit the bill.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 12:45 PM MST up reply actions
It almost happened last year.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 1:22 PM MST up reply actions
Alan Johnson may be a release candidate this year anyway.
We have a pretty crowded AAA rotation lined up. Now that we have confirmed Esmil Rogers has been granted a fourth option year, he’s pretty likely to be the opening day Sky Sox starter. That’s one. We also have Greg Reynolds on his fourth option year unlikely to be sent back to AA again. Samuel Deduno and Cory Riordan are also 40 man roster starters that project to start the season at AAA, leaving just one spot open for Alan Johnson or Greg Smith, the only two starters still officially on the Sky Sox roster. Eric Stults would have his name in there too, but we know that if he doesn’t make the team, he has an out clause to go play in Japan.
One other possibility is that one of Deduno or Johnson is moved to relief, but that’s surprisingly crowded as well.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 2:03 PM MST up reply actions
ROAD TRIP MANY TIMES OVER
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
Oh, I would so be there, at least once
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
For me, one would be enough
I’d be a damn late night getting back to Longmont in either circumstance
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
BEST DEAL EVER
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Yep
I used it to sit with two scouts and watch Dexter Fowler last year
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2011 8:36 AM MST up reply actions
I am still not used to not seing "Tucson" in this context
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
also good
Maybe we should do Talking Stick for optimistic seasons, Salt River for pessimistic ones. So the Rockies would be playing at Talking Stick, the D-backs Salt River this year.
by Rox Girl on Jan 5, 2011 2:29 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
this could work
I like it.
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
I've considered that.
If he does, both Johnson and Smith would be cut.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 2:24 PM MST up reply actions
and PR would become 100% less funny
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
by Muzia on Jan 5, 2011 2:25 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm guessing there's likely to be a pitcher or two sticking around for extended.
but you’re right, there are usually at least one or two AA or AAA level SP cuts for the team at the end of ST.
Yeah, it's difficult to try and predict what they'd do there.
One could make the argument that a pitcher who has to be stuffed into Extended ST just to clear roster space for the AAA team doesn’t hold enough value to keep on anyway, but depth is not a bad thing. Can you imagine if we still had Chaz Roe in the mix too?
If you’re still around… do you think converting Sam Deduno to the bullpen at this point would be a good move?
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 3:25 PM MST up reply actions
I thought it would be a good move two years ago.
I still think it’s where his most likely MLB value will come. He’s just too erratic and too fragile for a starter’s role. I’m guessing that he does get put there this Spring in the Springs, but I’m not sure who’s spot he’d take, I imagine Andy Graham’s chances of staying are relatively slim without a turnaround, and Sean Jarrett’s probably pretty fringy as well.
I agree that Deduno has value there.
Looking at the mix of people in contention for the AAA bullpen, we’ll likely start with Daley, Escalona and Billings optioned there. Graham and Johnston are the only relievers already on the roster, and both would be there unless released. Assuming the continue to keep Brothers on the super-fast track and send him there to start the season, that still leaves room for one more, which could be a Deduno or Johnson conversion, yes, without a release?
Or are you saying that someone like Sean Jarrett (or maybe Craig Baker) from Tulsa being denied promotion here would likely lead to a cut rather than a Tulsa repeat?
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 3:46 PM MST up reply actions
Though Jarrett and Baker would both probably be ideal Extended ST candidates....
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 3:48 PM MST up reply actions
yep, I was just thinking about who would likely be cut first
although I’m usually pretty bad at this exercise when it comes to the minor league bullpens.
That bullpen doesn't look too bad anymore
Thanks for the heads up on what it might be like
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Young
With Beltre’s signing Young seems like the most obvious guess…especially considering that the original talks had some life to them.
The original talks did, but I think the combo of Lopez/Wigginton made the talks obsolete
The only way any kind of trade for Young makes sense now is if it involves moving Stewart, and the Rangers don’t need/want Stewart.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
My money's on Napoli
Michael Young would be too redundant. We’ll need to a more experienced back up catcher than McKenry.
Though McKenry is probably already second on the list right now to Jose Morales.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 3:25 PM MST up reply actions
Not that Morales is a beacon of experience in general, but compared to McKenry...
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 3:26 PM MST up reply actions
Possibly
But the rhetoric from the front office has stated many times that Iannetta will be given the job this year. Bringing in Napoli would be a shift in that thinking (again)
Which means, of course, it's going to happen.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 3:33 PM MST up reply actions
If we've learning anything fron the FO in the last few years though
it’s that they’re never going to put Iannetta in that position. They like having a high competition level for the catching job.
/banned
No really, we’ve talked about that possibility quite a bit
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2011 8:38 AM MST up reply actions
I remember it just seemd like he was going to be given a "real" shot this year
But if there is a trade for Napoli i don’t see CDI catching more than 2-3 times a week.
Well, I've been saying all offseason that MO would go out the window
To date, it has
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2011 8:38 AM MST up reply actions
What the FO doesn't know is that Morales is going to hit .400 in April sending Iannetta to the bench once again :-)
85 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2011 8:41 AM MST up reply actions
I love the deal
Of course if he continues on the trend he’s on then this will be an awesome deal but even if he regresses a bit averaging just a bit over $11M per year (not counting his current deal or prorating) then it still will be a good deal.
Some hope?
by rockiesfan4ever on Jan 5, 2011 12:42 PM MST reply actions
I spoke too soon
This is a cool piece over at fangraphs
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I just spent that in five minutes, within the last hour.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Okay, it was only $1930.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
College will do that...
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I've done that, though the actual money originated in financial aid
Real fun to pay back lemmetellya
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 5, 2011 3:19 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Oh and sorry to shine the spotlight away from CarGo
But it’s my 19th birthday :D
I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P
by CentralCaliRox on Jan 5, 2011 4:24 PM MST up reply actions
Seriously!
I knew quite a bit in HS, and even one in college. My girlfriend’s is tomorrow.
I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P
by CentralCaliRox on Jan 5, 2011 4:56 PM MST up reply actions
Holy moly!! Happy Birthday....
oh…crap….it’s my brother in law’s birthday…I totally forget.
/races to free birthday cards online……
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Happy Birthday dude
Your only one year older than the Rockies franchise
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 4:39 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks everyone :)
I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P
by CentralCaliRox on Jan 5, 2011 4:56 PM MST up reply actions
Happy Birth!
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 8:40 PM MST up reply actions
I hear that.
3,150.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 5, 2011 8:40 PM MST up reply actions
Wow, that needs to be a movie or something.
okay maybe a story on MLB Network
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
HOF voting from earlier today
Player: Votes: (must be 75% to be elected)
Roberto Alomar 523 90.0%
Bert Blyleven 463 79.7%
-———————————————————————————————————
Barry Larkin 361 62.1%
Jack Morris 311 53.5%
Lee Smith 263 45.3%
Jeff Bagwell 242 41.7%
Tim Raines 218 37.5%
Edgar Martinez 191 32.9%
Alan Trammell 141 24.3%
Larry Walker 118 20.3%
Mark McGwire 115 19.8%
Fred McGriff 104 17.9%
Dave Parker 89 15.3%
Don Mattingly 79 13.6%
Dale Murphy 73 12.6%
Rafael Palmeiro 64 11.0%
Juan Gonzalez 30 5.2%
Harold Baines 28 4.8%
John Franco 27 4.6%
Kevin Brown 12 2.1%
Tino Martinez 6 1.0%
Marq Grissom 4 0.7%
Al Leiter 4 0.7%
John Olerud 4 0.7%
B.J. Surhoff 2 0.3%
Bret Boone 1 0.2%
Benito Santiago 1 0.2%
Carlos Baerga 0
Lenny Harris 0
Bobby Higginson 0
Charles Johnson 0
Raul Mondesi 0
Kirk Rueter 0
People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 5, 2011 4:02 PM MST reply actions
Guess that settles the Kevin Brown argument for a while
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
that's really too bad.
At the very least he should have been kept on the ballot. Juan Gone barely stayed on.
Why? He's in the Mitchell Report, as well
If you’re a voter who specifically did not vote for McGwire for ‘roids, you’re not going to vote for Brownie.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
I think this is where Jayson Stark nailed it
the “small hall” mentality is getting to the point that qualified candidates cannot even stay on the ballot because each voter can only select 10 players. Since the pool has expanded, they need to increase the number of players you can vote on each season.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
Why? Most writers don't even vote for 10
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
but if you are a voter that felt okay voting for McGwire, as 19.8% were,
than why not Brown? I really don’t believe McGwire’s case for the HOF is any better on statistical merit.
I wonder if Brown was just overshadowed by too many other great pitchers during his time
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 4:47 PM MST up reply actions
Well, he did have a royal douchebag reputation
Which absolutely should not have been a reason to keep him out, but also wasn’t going to get him any extra consideration by anyone who considered him borderline.
And as for considering him borderline, I don’t know anyone who considered him a slam dunk, which means there’s lots of room to debate.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
The reporters must have wised up after Blyleven
and figured the best way to not have stat-nerds complain about their not voting for a guy based on his personality was to kick him off the ballot year one.
Or.....
80% of them weren’t going to vote for Brown under any circumstance (steroids), and enough of the remaining BBWAA voters just didn’t think he was good enough.
Furthermore, Brown’s only true dominant stretch only lasted five years. He did decidedly nothing HOF caliber at all prior to his 30s, and little after the age of 35.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
That's the difference between 70 home runs and not ever holding a record
That’s what retiring 8th or wherever on the all time home run list will get you.
And McGwire’s totals have been going down a bit every year.
My point is, if you do not vote McGwire for roids, than you’re definitely not voting for Brown. But even if you overlook the roids, that just puts you in the camp of “are his stats, in my feeble reporter’s mind, good enough”.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Who voted for Benito Santiago and BJ Surhoff?
take the HOF votes away, right now.
People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 5, 2011 4:04 PM MST up reply actions
one of the Surhoff votes was from an ESPN editor.
Apparently he cut his reporting teeth in Surhoff’s hometown. It was the rest of his ballot (Morris, Mattingly, Martinez and Martinez) that should get his license revoked.
whoa. I forgot how good mid 90's Kevin Brown was. Career WAR of 64.8
And got robbed of the 1996 NL CY because of ZOMG WINS BRAVES PITCHER.
John Smoltz – 1st
24-8. 253.2IP. 2.94 ERA. 1.001 WHIP. 149ERA+ 6.1WAR
Kevin Brown – 2nd
17-11. 233IP. 1.89 ERA. 0.944 WHIP. 217ERA+ 7.5WAR
People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 5, 2011 4:35 PM MST up reply actions
to be fair, those are both phenomenal seasons
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
true. But I would still take the guy with a H/9 of 7.2 and HR/9 of 0.3 (Brown)
I guess that’s just from seeing guys pitch in Denver for so long though.
People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 5, 2011 4:41 PM MST up reply actions
But in 1996...
Brown pitched in a pitcher’s park, while Smoltz pitched in one of the worst (Fulton-County Stadium), especially for home runs.
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
WAR is park adjusted
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2011 8:40 AM MST up reply actions
Thats easy
Smoltz had a better beard
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
These numbers could be bad news for steroid users
Also, Barry Larkin had a nice jump this year
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 5, 2011 4:44 PM MST up reply actions
What is the threshold to stay on the ballot?
Good to see Walker over 20% – that should keep him on for sure…
Absolutely shocked to see Bobby Higginson not getting any votes. Crazy…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Bazinga!!
SD Cat 09 and Time Away From Purple Row are still awesome
Thanks
Personally, disappointed to see that JuanGon stays on the ballot but Harold Baines doesn’t. Haven’t compared the stats, but based on certain aspects of their careers I think I’d much rather see Baines get another shot than JuanGon.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Bazinga!!
SD Cat 09 and Time Away From Purple Row are still awesome
I believe I heard
that the threshold is 5%
Caution: Colorado teams are better than they appear.
by ShadowPenguin on Jan 5, 2011 4:05 PM MST up reply actions
Should be a reply to LMM above,
obviously…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Bazinga!!
SD Cat 09 and Time Away From Purple Row are still awesome
Vote of confidence!
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Still hates Tulo, but is quickly losing momentum.
Enjoys watching Galiardi and Shattenkirk fight for my next jersey purchase.
SB Nation Denver
Wonder of EdtheLawnMower has had anything to add yet
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
PaulthePenguin said it could be Mike Napoli
We’ll have to wait and see
Napoli's going to make around $6 million this season
which given the current ODP projection means we’d have to take about that much off the roster to make it work. That’s not going to be an easy fit.
that one's actually a little easier if you figure Cook's probably gone in the trade
and Wigginton’s redundant and likely traded later. At that point it’s just a matter of the Rangers chipping in the rest.
That is what makes any trade of Young difficult.
The Rangers would be doing it as a salary dump, but it’s hard to do that when you need to take major salary back plus eat some of the contract.
The salary they take back
would be for only one year though (not counting what they chip in to cover for us taking the dump)
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
I would think Wigginton wouldn't be in high demand at his age and multiyear deal
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2011 8:41 AM MST up reply actions
I dont think any trade is going to happen and will be very surprised if BobtheBuilder is correct
I was just playing along on Mondo’s comment
It's not what "could" be, it's what the alleged person in the know said "will" be
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
Has anyone seen this yet?
SB Nation’s best animated gifs of 2010?
A gif I posted made it to #39!
People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 5, 2011 4:57 PM MST reply actions
I just want to make sure this gets the attention it deserves:

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Oh that is too funny!!
May I repost on Denver Stiffs as it is basketball related?
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Wow, when did they let Sandoval run out onto a basketball court?
Is it ApRil yet?
Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports
And what a GIF it is
Love it
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Huh, #39 is rather condescending in it's title...
but F them, we have Ubaldo and they don’t
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
The title is pretty much accurate from an outsider perspective.
I’m willing to bet most people’s understanding of the Coors effect prevented them from ever even considering a pitcher like Jimenez arriving out of our organization. In fact, despite having the amongst the metrically best pitching staffs in 2009 and 2010, most people still throw in the arbitrary “Rockies need pitching” line in every analysis.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 5:56 PM MST up reply actions
I just didn't care for the "actually" part...
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
It didn't bother me too much.
I’m much more bothered when people refuse to give credit at all to our pitching staff, and this was actually an attempt at doing that.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 6:07 PM MST up reply actions
That's true....
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
The Rockies have signed Hernan Iribarren to a minor league contract and added him as an NRI.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
Well, he's definitely taken over the lead for most unique name in the Rockies organization
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Jhoulys Chacin is more unique than that.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 5:34 PM MST up reply actions
I dunno.....
Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Jhoulys is though
Who is this Gustavo impostor anyway?
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
afraid I don't
You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK
Pitched with Houston in 2010, still floating around.
anyhow, that makes the other guy a more unique name.
by Andrew Martin on Jan 7, 2011 1:18 PM MST up reply actions
For now yes....
Yorvit will always be the all time winner.
by SurfaceThought on Jan 8, 2011 12:05 PM MST up reply actions
He will be the 7th announced Spring NRI, for those counting.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 5, 2011 5:39 PM MST up reply actions
Oh so that's the big deal Ed the Toiletman or whatever was talking about
Lol.
I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P
by CentralCaliRox on Jan 5, 2011 6:06 PM MST up reply actions
Sorry if already discussed
First of all, great article! Second, if somebody made a similar comment, please forgive me. I have read most of them, but not all.
Even with a pessimistic outlook of an average of 3 WAR for 7 seasons with a market value of $3 Million per win, the market value of Cargo would be around $63 ($9MM x 7). No? All you have to do is change the market value per win to $4MM and this contract is more than worth it.
So all Cargo has to do is play half as well as he did according to fWAR for the next 7 seasons and this contract pays for itself. Heck, Cargo could have another year like last year, miss an entire season (may the gods never allow this) and still be worth it.
There are very few people who hit the ball as hard as he does in to the gaps. I would go as far as to say not even Tulo can pound the gap as hard as Cargo.
Keep sippin' the Rockohol
by Jamie Hollowell on Jan 5, 2011 10:45 PM MST reply actions
The market value for a win is already well over $4m
But yes, it’s clear that this is a decent deal for the team. If Cargo loses his legs in a yachting accident then it’ll suck, but the risk/reward ratio is comfortably in the Rockies’ favour.
I think you bring up a very good point
but what makes this even more complicated is Cargo was not going to be a free agent during all seven years of this contract. Therefore, the Rockies wouldn’t have had to pay him $4.5 million – $5 million per WAR point (or whatever number you want to argue a WAR is worth on the free agent market today) every single year. The Rockies only would’ve had to pay that number during the last three years of this contract (when he would have been a free agent).
It’s important to separate the next couple of seasons from the ones where he would have been out on the open market when considering the value of this contract because the amount of money Cargo would have been able to garner each season drastically changes throughout the life of this contract.
Even when considering this though, I still believe the Rockies are getting a really good deal here.
86 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2011 7:44 AM MST up reply actions

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