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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Sunday Rockpile: Avoiding getting delusional about depth...

In 2010 the Rays won the AL East for the second time in three years, once again toppling the twin behemoths that sit atop all of baseball with a shrewdly built underdog team that showed Boston and New York to respect the peons. Andrew Friedman is rightly recognized as one of the best executives in the game because of what he's been able to do with Tampa Bay in building a team that can win like the big boys on a little boy's allowance.

Having said that, however, I think that Friedman tends to get too much credit for being a miracle worker, and that some analysts allow themselves to get blinded by his prowess to the point they lack objectivity. Tampa's a very talented young club. Before the offseason, they were a very talented and extremely deep young club. I really don't believe this to be the case anymore. When healthy, Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, Jason Bartlett, Rafael Soriano, Joaquin Benoit and now Matt Garza represented around 15 wins of value over replacement per season over the last three years. It's a testament to the Rays depth before these players' departures that in every single case the replacement for the departing player is at least in theory capable of putting up similar production.

There are a couple of problems with this, however. First, the supposed replacement of value is all involving speculative leaps of young, unproven players, and the risks to a season tend to be cumulative with each additional young player that you put this weight on. The projections might like that the players in question may be able to accomplish great things, but the confidence in the projections gets severely eroded because of a lack of MLB data to back them up.

Second, and from an analytical standpoint this is discouraging that it's been missed, but there's been some duplication in where the expected wins are to come from. The Rays lose Crawford, but analysts are okay that the loss can be made up with Desmond Jennings and increased production from a mystery DH the team has yet to sign. Now the Rays lose Garza for 2011, and replace his production with a decent pitcher taking up the bottom of the innings chain, Robinson Chirinos (who's like this stone cold lock to be a one WAR MLB player from the bench next season despite barely reaching AAA for 60 PA's at 27 years old) but also by adding a mystery DH. Mystery DH is very very good, apparently, and willing to sign at a deep discount to what his expected value to the Tampa team will be. 

Finally, there's an issue that it took some luck for the Rays to get where they did last season, the Yankees were likely a better team and the Red Sox were unlucky themselves, and in all of the foisting of Tampa as a legitimate contender in the league's most difficult division, there's an implicit assertion that this good luck will continue in 2011. I don't buy it. Every team besides Tampa and New York in the AL East added win value during the winter, and New York didn't lose the players that the Rays did. I think Tampa's likely to be one of baseball's biggest disappointments next year.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you ever see me doing stuff like this with the Rockies, kick me. Remind me about this post here. I think all fans get a little blinded when it comes to their own team, but in Tampa's case it's kind of going into crazyland.

Tracy Ringolsby writes that the Rockies are wise for locking up Carlos Gonzalez and Troy Tulowitzki long term, Colorado's using what advantages their market does afford over smaller market clubs like Tampa and Kansas City to offer near market level contracts to young stars. Having a couple of well paid but solid building blocks in their primes won't prevent the Rockies from being shrewd and frugal with the rest of their payroll, it just going to give the club quite a bit more margin for error than what we're seeing in Tampa.

More links after the jump.

Star-divide

In case you missed it from the comments to yesterday's Rockpile, the Denver Post has a little piece on everything Chris Iannetta is doing to improve his hitting for the coming season. Well, not everything, it's actually a bit lacking in specifics, but it sounds good on the surface. Watching video, shortening the swing, working with Lansford, etc... I don't mean to sound pessimistic, I'm just always a bit skeptical with this variety of off season stories until we actually see the pudding.

The DP also has a bit on the marketing of the pro teams in Denver, focusing on the three non-Broncos squads, where it acknowledges the Rockies have a bit of an edge, especially now with Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez locked up.

Vinny Castilla is retiring from playing in the Mexican Pacific League for a second, and likely final time. Similar to what has happened with Vinny and the Rockies since his playing days here ended, Castilla wants to continue working with his Hermosillo club in some capacity. 

Bobby Abreu tells a Veneuelan paper that he's proud of Carlos Gonzalez's accomplishments with the Rockies this last season and notes how close that CarGo was to becoming that country's first Major League MVP. 

Additionally, Thomas Harding's Jhoulys Chacin profile that WolfMarauder linked in Friday's Rockpile is getting a lot of mileage in the Venezuelan press. I'm not going to link any of the re-hashes since all of the articles are pretty much Spanish translations of what we already read and don't add new information, but with four or five of them popping up in a Google News search for the Rockies, it indicates that we may be on our way to having a second sports celebrity from that country. Despite the Rockies desire to keep a lid on this, it looks like we'll get to see how Chacin responds to the pressure of expectation anyway.

The good news from that would be that if Chacin does respond well, he really is a machine, a robot sent to help us vanquish the evils in our division. Secondly, I would guess that the Rockies as a team are getting more press than any other MLB franchise in Venezuela this winter, which will only help recruitment efforts for young players there. 

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You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Jan 9, 2011 1:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Wow
They aren’t the New York Yankees or Boston Red Sox, who spare no expense in stockpiling talent. But they are confident that in the next five years they will be able to handle a payroll in the $120 million neighborhood so the Tulowitzki-Gonzalez contracts won’t strangle their ability to compete.

I’m pretty certain even Rowbots’ most optomisitic predictions don’t go that far.

Is it ApRil yet?

Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports

by Mondogarage on Jan 9, 2011 9:38 AM MST reply actions  

I found that figure a bit hard to swallow myself, as you'd be talking about a 33% gain in revenue

And Dick Monfort himself explicitly projected less than 20%

I do think that $105 to $110 million by 2015 is likely if the Rockies make another playoff appearance or two in the next couple of years. And I have to write more about this at some point, but the expansion of the playoffs and the Rockies current trajectory will make that a very real, almost likely scenario. I think $120 million’s possible with a WS win, but barring that, I don’t see it on the horizon.

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 10:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Any idea when their FSNRM TV deal is up for renewal?

I’m not sure if they would be looking at significantly more revenue there, or how much, just wondering if that might factor into the revenue projections…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

Bazinga!!

SD Cat 09 and Time Away From Purple Row are still awesome

by Junction Rox on Jan 9, 2011 12:57 PM MST up reply actions  

That's actually up at the same time Tulo's contract is...

so no dice on that front. This added revenue has to be coming from either tickets or stadium advertising. It’s why I think it’s very likely we’re going to see a pretty substantial ticket price hike in coming seasons.

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 1:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Spread over 3-4 seasons, or a couple of large, annual increases?

Looking back on the attendance records, it’s incredible that the team’s attendance held above three million per year for the first nine years, and above 2.7 for the tenth (the last time the team crossed the 2.7 million barrier).

This is just speculation, but if the economy has held down the Rockies’ post-playoff attendance bump since 2008, there could (maybe should?) be a fair amount of pent up demand for ticket if there’s an overall economic improvement in the next year or two.

That would likely obviate the need for large yearly bumps, but if ownership plays it right they’ll be able to make several subtle increases (that amount to significant increases) without alienating fans that are ready to return. Another playoff appearance coupled with slight increases, plus the loyalty to fans demonstrated by the contracts, could translate to a lot of additional revenue.

by deacs on Jan 9, 2011 5:07 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm guessing, like you, that it will come as a gradual build

spread over a few seasons. I think I’m assuming around a 10% total increase with increased attendance and hopefully some deep playoff runs giving an added nudge.

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 6:16 PM MST up reply actions  

don't know if this has been mentioned

haven’t been here much lately but anybody see the commercial with Cargo in it…young guns commercial…sweeet haha

LETS GO RED WINGS!

2011 will be the year....better be....

Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."

by TuLoRocks2008 on Jan 9, 2011 10:33 AM MST reply actions  

CarGo with the dog...

I don’t know what to say

"They can outplay us all four games and if we end up winning the series, I'll be fine with that." ~Troy Tulowitzki

by HeltonsHeroes on Jan 9, 2011 10:48 AM MST up reply actions  

I loved it!

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jan 9, 2011 11:31 AM MST up reply actions  

Isn't the whole we'd be awesome if Stewart/Helton/Iannetta/Fowler step up argument similar to the Rays?

The 2010 Colorado Rockies: We may have lost the battle, but not the war. It ain't over till it's over.

by MattBerger on Jan 9, 2011 11:00 AM MST reply actions  

I don't think it's a perfect parallel here because...

in the Rox case, they’re looking for improvement from players who already have significant ML experience and have shown they can do well (but have underperformed since). In the Rays’ case, it looks like they’re referring to their rising minor league talent, who haven’t yet shown they are major league players, but are projected to be.

Is it ApRil yet?

Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports

by Mondogarage on Jan 9, 2011 11:08 AM MST up reply actions  

2 big differences...

We’re already as likely to win as our divisional competition with them producing just like they have been. Tampa’s a handful of games behind the Red Sox and at least a couple behind the Yankees for sure, and probably closer to the Jays and Orioles than a lot of people realize.

Second, it’s not as much of a leap of faith given that there’s already an MLB baseline with each of those four. You don’t have that with Hellickson, Jennings, Chirinos or others.

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 11:08 AM MST up reply actions  

probably closer to the Jays and Orioles than a lot of people realize.

This is my viewpoint of how the Rays will play next year, fighting for 3rd place.

I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P

by CentralCaliRox on Jan 9, 2011 1:04 PM MST up reply actions  

It's snowing again.

People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 9, 2011 11:25 AM MST reply actions  

I've already shoveled the walk twice this morning.

But I’m not complaining because:

(1) We need the moisture

and

(2) The Rockies aren’t scheduled today.

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Jan 9, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions  

How much snow have you got down Denver way so far?

We only have maybe an inch in Longmont thus far.

Is it ApRil yet?

Any number above zero is way too many days before Pitchers and Catchers Reports

by Mondogarage on Jan 9, 2011 11:34 AM MST up reply actions  

we've probably had about 4 to 6 inches in my part of Loveland

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Jan 9, 2011 11:40 AM MST up reply actions  

wow...you guys are getting pounded

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jan 9, 2011 11:48 AM MST up reply actions  

yeah. Pretty strange because we usually don't get much when others don't.

But I’m downstairs in the Rockies Room watching football with instructions left to let me know when it needs scooped again. So it’s all good.:)

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Jan 9, 2011 11:57 AM MST up reply actions  

got about 3 to 4 in my part of town right now

.

People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 9, 2011 1:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Consider yourself lucky.

I’ve seen snow twice my ENTIRE life, once when I was in kindergarten (I didn’t go to school that day and played in the snow :D) and the other time when I was coming back to UCLA from winter break, and saw snow on the mountains.

I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P

by CentralCaliRox on Jan 9, 2011 1:05 PM MST up reply actions  

the older you get and the more you've seen, the less fun it is. JMO.

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Jan 9, 2011 1:37 PM MST up reply actions  

this

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jan 9, 2011 1:39 PM MST up reply actions  

wrong

People ask me what I do during the winter when there is no baseball. I tell you what I do, I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 9, 2011 1:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes! No school here in Douglas!

There was definitely no point in canceling it as at this point, the roads are kind of icy but come on, they’ve made us go in a lot worse. But whatever, I’m not complaining :)

by Rockie4Ever on Jan 10, 2011 6:31 AM MST up reply actions  

I lol'd
Robinson Chirinos (who’s like this stone cold lock to be a one WAR MLB player from the bench next season despite barely reaching AAA for 60 PA’s at 27 years old)

Even 1 WAR off the bench takes some luck and work… I also think it is misleading to talk about WAR or bench players in the same way that we talk about it for starters; even if the young catcher does have a good year it means that others on the team must be having bad years. Whatever value Chirinos adds will at least somewhat be offset by a loss of value elsewhere. There is no team in MLB who wouldn’t enjoy a fourth outielder that could reliably put up 3 WAR in a whole season of work, but if he puts up 3 WAR in a full season of work because he had to replace the starting fielder who got injured and would have put up 4 WAR, then it is to the detriment of the team.

It would be a different story if the Rays had a good #1 backstop and were looking for a #2, but with two catchers that, barring injury, will most likely be more valuable than Chirinos, I’m not so sure what the idea is.

by SurfaceThought on Jan 9, 2011 1:34 PM MST reply actions  

Then again

Six Million Dollars should at least be worth a win on the free agent market.

by SurfaceThought on Jan 9, 2011 1:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, a win, maybe even a win and a half.

I think there’s only one available player that I’d really trust providing that (Thome) value as a DH for 2011. I think Vlad and Manny are not that impressive.

I think the issue remains, however, that the Rays seem to be wanting this one player to provide three or four wins. Not only making up the gap between Garza and the bottom of the pitching chain, Jennings and Crawford, but also to provide the same value that Pena provided at first last season (as they seem to be angling Dan Johnson there right now).

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 1:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Sad news in baseball. Dallas Green's granddaughter was one of those killed in Arizona shootings...

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/09/dallas-greens-granddaughter-killed-in-tucson-shooting/related/

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jan 9, 2011 2:22 PM MST reply actions  

For CDI; I agree simple is better and shortening his swing will help him some.

 It’s going to take no small amount of repition to lock in a shorter swing. He’ll need to do a lot more to get better coverage on the outside third. The Rox won’t be too specific so as not to advertise his adjustments early. I really hope for the Rox’s sake He can increase his miniscule Hot zone to a more practical size and move it lower in the zone.
 As he ended last season I would not have used him against any ground ball pitchers.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jan 9, 2011 3:00 PM MST reply actions  

I'm hoping it will make him less of a guess hitter

It looked pretty blatant last year, in that he would swing at sliders in the dirt in the same AB when he took a BP fastball with the bat on his shoulder. He was lost. Quicker swing equals longer to recognize pitches equals more reacting less guessing. But I fear he’s been a guess hitter so long he can’t change.

by BostonTransplant on Jan 9, 2011 4:14 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree with everything you said; there is more to pitch recognition and that involves studying pitchers.

 It has always been counter intuitive to me that catcher’s in particular should suffer from pitch recognition problems so much. Who looks at more pitches?. I was good at picking up release points and could often spot grips. That is something not usually taught to most players as being to hard. I would think catchers working with their pitchers would develope that skill in observing their mechanics.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jan 9, 2011 5:21 PM MST up reply actions  

I dreamt last night the Rox won their first two games

And in the second game, Cook threw a complete game shutout. Pretty cool :P

I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P

by CentralCaliRox on Jan 9, 2011 3:28 PM MST reply actions  

I actually hope this doesn't come true

If Cook is throwing a shutout in the second game, then either Ubaldo or JDLR are likely starting the season on the DL.

81 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 10, 2011 9:06 AM MST up reply actions  

We could have a repeat of 2008

Where they start playing Friday, and get rained out so Saturday is the first game with DLR and Cook goes Sunday

You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the goddamn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all. ~Earl Weaver
Baseball fans love numbers. They love to swirl them around their mouths like Bordeaux wine. ~Pat Conroy
JFK

by jrockies on Jan 10, 2011 9:28 AM MST up reply actions  

Renck tweets re CarGo
Have confirmed that CarGo will take physical Monday. That means press conference should be Tuesday to announce 7 yr $80m deal

SQUEEEE!

Optimism Warrior
2011 Colorado Zombies-DeadWalking to the NL West crown
Todd and Troy: Because they ARE Rockies.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jan 9, 2011 4:19 PM MST reply actions  

The Rays...

I find it hard to bash the Garza trade. Hellickson will step into his spot in the rotation and shine brightly. As you pointed out, they lost some players this year. But, they have depth. The back end of the bullpen is wide open, but Jacob McGee will get a shot for sure, and don’t be surprised if the big fish in the Garza trade, Chris Archer gets used as a setup man and/or closer this year (ala Neftali Feliz). Guyer is a 4th outfielder of the future. Desmond Jennings will fill Crawford’s shoes.

Will Tampa compete in 2011? Probably not. Will they be good in 2012 or 2013? Probably yes.

by noelman31 on Jan 9, 2011 5:08 PM MST reply actions  

It's asking a lot for Jennings to fill Crawford's shoes.

Jennings has 24 PA at the ML level, and he doesn’t project for nearly as much power. He may match Crawford in defense and on base skills (might be better at getting on base), but he certainly won’t provide the value Crawford did in ’08 or ’09.

by deacs on Jan 9, 2011 5:13 PM MST up reply actions  

You'll note that I'm not, nor have I bashed the Garza trade.

It was a definite win for the Rays. I’m bashing analysts that think the Rays are a better team this year (2011) without Garza than they were with him.

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 5:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Not a better team, but still a darn fine squad that should challenge for a playoff slot in 2011

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jan 10, 2011 7:11 PM MST up reply actions  

2012, when there's an extra playoff spot and they have a year of maturity sure.

In 2011, I’m guessing they’re no better than sixth best in the AL (Boston, NY, Minnesota, Detroit, Texas) and might be worse than that.

by Rox Girl on Jan 10, 2011 8:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree to disagree I guess.

To borrow from Around the Horn, I’m selling on them winning the division but I’m buying on them being competitive for the Wild Card. I see them being competitive with NY and MIN/DET/CHW with deep pitching, defense, and an underrated offense.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jan 10, 2011 9:09 PM MST up reply actions  

The pitching's just not as deep as it was anymore and is due for some regression from last season anyway

The one guy who’s not (Shields) likely isn’t as good as his FIP would suggest. On offense they’re relying too much on players maintaining either a bench level or AAA level of production when moved to starting roles. It’s sort of like where we were with Smith and Stewart a couple of seasons ago.

I think we are in disagreement, I just see this team as very likely to disappoint relative to the still high expectations.

by Rox Girl on Jan 11, 2011 4:20 AM MST up reply actions  

Do you have a crystal Ball?
Hellickson will step into his spot in the rotation and shine brightly.

Or are you basing that on the impressive sample size of 36.1 IP last season in MLB?

I certainly don’t argue that he has a very good chance of doing so, but part of RoxGirl’s initial point I believe is the uncertainty involved, not the level of talent. In the context of whether or not the Rays are better or not in 2011, every team needs to count on a rookie every once in a while… But when you are counting on effectively three to have smooth adjustments to MLB with seasons that reflect their level of talent, there is a lot of room for thing to go wrong. The margin of error in that division in particular is very thin, and if Hellickson takes a half year to adjust that could make the difference between a team that is competing with NY and BoSox for lead of the division and a team with an angry and panicked fan base at the all star break.

by SurfaceThought on Jan 9, 2011 8:19 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm not a Rays fan...

… I’m a Rox fan like you all. But I find myself consistently impressed with the moves that their organization makes. Re-read my last comment. I said to watch out in 2012 or 2013.

Regarding Hellickson, I’m basing that on his career minor league stats: 2.71 ERA in 580 IP, 634 Ks and only 137 BBs. The kids going to be a superstar, assuming he stays healthy (the same risk all pitchers have).

I think Archer’s going to be pretty awesome too. Control is his biggest problem. Still, look at his career minor league #s: 3.67 ERA, 444 IP, 449 Ks, 257 BBs. Supposedly, he only has 2 plus pitches (mid 90s heater and a good curve). The jury is out on his change up. If his worst case is dominant closer, I don’t think that’s so bad. 6 years of dominant closer for 3 years of a #3 pitcher when you had another stud to step in? I’d make that trade. If Archer’s low end is he turns into Neftali Feliz, and his high end is he’s a right handed Gio Gonzalez, I wouldn’t be bashing Archer just yet…

by noelman31 on Jan 9, 2011 10:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed.

They let their entire (and going to be expensive) bullpen walk, but they rebuilt it (through the SD trade partially). However, their inability to spend any sort of money is what worries me. But yes, agreed that the franchise is in pretty good shape.

I'm GoRockies!! everybody :P

by CentralCaliRox on Jan 9, 2011 11:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Way too much.

While I think the prospects the Cubs gave up are overrated (Lee’s a second division starter at short, the other position players likely backups and even Archer might not stay a starter for much longer) the hype of the prospects is typically what you look at for their value, which would make a comparable Rockies package something like Friedrich, Pacheco, Adames, Blackmon and Garner.

by Rox Girl on Jan 9, 2011 6:56 PM MST up reply actions  

I could see all of those guys traded except Friedrich

He is the only one who is considered untouchable, and some argue he should actually be traded now. After that, the best player is Blackmon, who we already saw in trade rumors this offseason, and Pacheco, who plays a position of solid depth in the minors. Still,O’Dowd would not have made that deal.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 10, 2011 12:53 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

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