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Monday Rockpile: If You Can't Win, At Least Don't Lose

There's an age-old question when it comes to sports: Is it better to score a run or to prevent a run from scoring? The great philosophers of sports in general have carried this debate throughout history, what gives you the better chance of winning? Should you bolster your lineup and move the fences in or should you expand the yard and staff your squad with gloves and curveballs?

In a sense, there's really no difference. Scoring a run is supposedly the same as preventing the other team from scoring a run, as far as run differentials go. Having a positive and large run differential is typically the story of how a team wins pennants. I know this is a shock, that outscoring the other team consistently suggests that you will win a lot of games, but stay with me for a bit here.

Let's think about the nature of both of the options. A team with a lot of bats and not a lot of gloves/arms is going to have a lot of exciting games and find itself on both ends of the 10-7 games quite often. A team with a lot of gloves/arms but a lack of thump at the plate it going to find itself dancing around a lot of 3-1 games. One team is really fun to watch, but ultimately disappointing. The other team is the 2010 Giants (so, yeah, still disappointing).

Here's another way to pose the question: you are going to acquire a free agent player. Do you acquire position player for his bat (thereby scoring your team a run) or do you get a gloveman at a critical position or an ace reliever or veteran starter (preventing a run)? The idea is that we obviously want to get a guy who can hit and field, adding both potentials to the club and giving us that much more of an advantage. Seeing how players who can hit and field are typically in high demand, it's going to be harder to acquire those players.

The next step is to look at the players who can do one of the two things, but not both. Good glovemen like Mark Ellis aren't all that hard to find, whether by sign or by trade. The best of the best out there are locked up with their teams, as they also tend to be some of the more elite talents, but there's typically no shortage of glove first guys on the market - they might even be in your own minor league system!

Star-divide

The other side of the spectrum tends to a bit uglier. There are a lot of readily available players out there who can bat but can't really field. Which is fine if you have the DH or if you have a vacancy at 1B. If those spots are unavailable, you'll have to take that risk that you'll be getting Lance Berkman in RF rather than Aubrey Huff in LF. If you're willing to take that risk, there are a lot of doors that could open for you.

There's a sub-group to this group as well, and these are the players that have played competently at positions other than 1B recently and have fooled their managers into thinking they have positional versatility, when the reality is that they're terrible at pretty much all of the positions they play. Talent acquirers will then overvalue that perceived versatility and be willing to take a hit on the overall batting prowess in order to acquire said versatility, and then sign it to a 2-year, $8M contract.

The problem with these guys is that they end up being Ty Wigginton and you get the short end of both sticks.

What remains is the all-glove players. The good thing about these guys is that they're typically cheaper than the all-bat guys, as one would expect, and can even have ACTUAL positional versatility. 

By the time we get to these guys, they're usually ages 33-40, and they're essentially known quantities. Without diving into aging curves on fielding, we can typically assume that good gloves will remain good gloves, good bats will remain good bats (at least based on expectations). Difference is, I'm not going to expect Jason Giambi to suddenly be able to play a competent RF. That said, Lance Berkman jogged back out to RF after spending time as a 1B and a DH and made it worth the Cardinals' while. The point is, batting spikes out of older players looking to have nothing left but their gloves are far more believable than Donny DH suddenly ranging to his left at 3B to start the 5-4-3 DP.

On top of all of this, the Rockies have a young pitching staff, and I'd like to welcome them to 2012 by saying "don't you worry about pitching to contact, we've got this covered". Maybe I'm crazy, but knowing that the 7 guys behind him are going to be helping him get outs might just boost the confidence of guys like Drew Pomeranz and Alex White.

Additionally, the general public seems to view strong fielding teams get the "strong team, not the most talented but still hard workers, playing the right way" while sloppy fielding teams are "lacking focus, distracted by the team's poor performance, pressing, trying to do too much.

To summarize all that, the all-glove guy and the all-bat guy (at least the "positional versatility" option) tend to be equally valued. The upside of the all-glove guy is that they might find one of those magical seasons where they inexplicably see/hit the ball well and end the season at all-star level.

This is what makes an Ian Stewart last-chance such a sticky situation. You could go for a Scott-Rolen-type acquisition and bank on a rebound based on good production just one year ago.  You could also just stick with Stewart and get another plus glove and pocket the savings,, but for ~$2M, you'll still be banking on the upside potential of a rebound year.

So all of that summarized just says that the Rockies need to be looking for the best defensive options available. That was what the team philosophy: get pitching, get defense, win things. It did, for a little while, too. The team decides to sacrifice some defense for "right handed road hitting" and has the most disappointing season in franchise history. 

Point of the story? Get defense. If you can't score runs, you'll never win games. If you don't allow runs, you'll never lose, either. Beyond the Boxscore ran a historical study on this back in the last offseason.

I'd rather be that team that never "loses" and makes every single step on the way to that win absolute misery for the opponents. That'll do for me in 2012.

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You MUST score a run to win a game, therefore scoring is more important.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Oct 24, 2011 10:20 AM MDT reply actions  

I don't Think it is that simple at all

How often do teams fail to score at all? 5% of the time? Teams trip into a run most times, so you can’t really make a blanket idea based on a small occurrence.

"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 24, 2011 10:47 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

People are forgetting that Ian wasn't bad from 08-10.

bq .This is what makes an Ian Stewart last-chance such a sticky situation. You could go for a Scott-Rolen-type acquisition and bank on a rebound based on good production just one year ago.

Scott Rolen was better than Stewart in 2010, but might be at the tail end of his career. And I’d take Stewart’s glove over Rolen’s (again, considering age here). Strictly defensively, we might not find much better than Stewart.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 24, 2011 10:25 AM MDT reply actions  

Whoops blockquote fail.

This is what makes an Ian Stewart last-chance such a sticky situation. You could go for a Scott-Rolen-type acquisition and bank on a rebound based on good production just one year ago.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 24, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Please, not Stewie again!

Strictly offensively, we could not do any worse than Stewart.

He has shown the fans too much disappointment. Get someone you can rely on, and move on.

by Real Perspective on Oct 24, 2011 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Like who?

Reliable 3B bats are at a premium.

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by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

Broox Robinson

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 24, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

mike shmitt

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

So if the answer is to keep in house options at 2B (Ellis) and 3B (Stewart)

The savings from not going after Cuddyer or Wright should be realized somewhere assuming we can trade Street/Wigginton (12M), a FA pitcher maybe? I think Mark Buehrle would be a good idea as I dont think he wants many years and has been very consistent throughout his career… though will be fairly expensive to lure away from Chicago. If the FO wants a reliable innings eater, Buehrle is as good a bet as any to reach 200 IP.

by Ender-25 on Oct 24, 2011 10:33 AM MDT reply actions  

I wouldn't mind seeing them cut payroll for the short term.

This is my ideal plan: focus on defense and developing players this year, with cheap veterans or reclamation projects to fill in the gaps. Basically, what Andrew said about defense. I think the Mariners showed us a few years ago that top notch defense can make a bad team at least mediocre, and it’s the cheapest way to upgrade. Then, in 2013 or 2014, when the pitching appears to be ready but before Pomeranz’s arm falls off, look into increasing payroll either through trade or FA. That way you’re not locking yourself into some relatively large contract now just because you have money to spend, but you’re spending your money wisely at a time when it is most likely to make a difference.

by RoxnSox09 on Oct 24, 2011 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

There is a difference

The difference between Ellis and Stewart is that Ellis has a modest bat and a good glove, Stewart has a terrible bat and a good glove.

Answer? Keep Ellis. Dump Stewart!

by Real Perspective on Oct 24, 2011 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nolan Arenado has AFL’s 2nd best PA/K ratio (18.67), Joe Gardner has 2nd best K/9 among SP (14.14), Salt River Rafters lead AFL in team ERA

Arenado’s contact ability is elite when compared not just to his peers, but top prospects that are older than him. This cannot be overstated.

"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 24, 2011 10:45 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

I'm cautiously optimistic

that Arenado’s high contact ways will be able to help sustain the offense on the road. Lots of times it seems like we get hits and stuff on the road, but nothing linked together enough to put up runs. I’m hoping he’ll be a real asset for this…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 24, 2011 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

He's got a 96 contact tool according to the Baseball Cube

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by Jeff Aberle on Oct 24, 2011 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ian Stewart is an "all-glove" guy now?

You do realize how much of a stretch that is, don’t you? You also realize that there’s about as much defensive upside in a single season for those all bat, no glove types, as there is offensively for their opposites. It’s why UZR isn’t considered reliable over the course of one season, it could make an overall below average defender look to be a positive for a year just as it did with Stewart in 2011. Meanwhile, Rolen, has never had a season as a negative defender outside his short rookie call-up cup of coffee and he’s been a better defender than Stewart in every season both have played. He’d save more runs than Stewart, he’d likely produce more at the plate. The only advantage Stewart has is in age, and when everything else is so overwhelmingly in the other player’s favor, you have to put that aside.

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 10:55 AM MDT reply actions  

I'd be willing to grant that he's on the low end of "average", as he's had more below average seasons than above average.

His total career UZR and r-dWAR is below zero, on the average he loses runs defensively rather than gain them, to me this is below average. He will get outproduced defensively by true above average defenders, such as Rolen and he doesn’t have as much of an advantage with the glove over somebody like Cuddyer as you’re making it sound like. The downside risk with Stewart is below average defense and another season at the plate like 2011, for which you pay $2 million or so. How is this that much different a situation than what we already have committed to with Ty Wigginton?

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Reading this site regularly

and (shamefully) never bothering to check Stew’s defensive SABR stats, I am pretty surprised that his numbers are that poor. My impression is that many really see him as an elite-level defender and I had always assumed that was backed up in the numbers. For my money he’s just fine as a defender, but I never thought he was special — certainly not enough to justify his 2011 bat.

Obviously, RG, you are not one of the IS defenders around here, but where are those folks getting this impression that he’s such a good glove?

by Teekalong on Oct 24, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

There are serious weaknesses in defensive metrics.

I had a long debate about some of this with RIRF one night.

I don’t think that Stewart is an elite fielder, but he has a decent slightly above average glove at 3B. He is at least average. His defensive numbers are begin killed by his 9 starts in the outfield and 21 starts at 2B in 2009. If you take those out, he has slightly above average defensive numbers at 3B, though his 2011 was pretty weak with the glove as well.

by DumbAndNerdy on Oct 24, 2011 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm no fan

of defensive metrics, which explains why I’d never actually seen the numbers he’s accumulated. I’m just surprised at RG’s take after hearing so many here (and elsewhere) pimp him as a great 3b, and my own eyes telling me that he’s pretty good.

by Teekalong on Oct 24, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I used to defend him regularly.

And I’d do it again, as I think some of the early grumbling about Stewart came to quickly to give a fair assessment, but he’s accumulated quite a bit of MLB data at this point, and it’s not that promising.

At any rate, I think one reason is that people easily confuse effort with skill when it comes to baseball defense. Stewart works hard defensively to make the plays he does make and makes fewer errors than the typical NL 3B. All of this will lead to a perception of an above average glove even though the numbers don’t really back it up.

I’m actually okay with the theory of a run prevented being a little more valuable than a run scored, the problem is that this is leading to a lot of incorrect default assumptions. I’m afraid this seems to be as true with the FO as it is with the fans. If you’re gaining 10 runs scored at 3B but giving up 10 more runs on defense, it’s not worth it, but the situation actually is more like gaining 20 runs scored and giving up 5 to 10 (Cuddyer) or gaining 5 to 10 on both (Rolen).

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think the prevented/scored thing

is probably too devoid of context to be enough to make any conclusive statements on value. How could it possibly be tested? In any event, I look forward to how DOD addresses 3b. Certiainly a tough place to be.

by Teekalong on Oct 24, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's actually one of the few things in sports that can be proven mathematically

Since I’m not a mathematician, I won’t actually write out the equation, but I will explain it:

It’s impossible for a team to lose if it allows zero runs, whereas it is possible for that team to lose for any non-infinite number of runs scored. That means that each run prevented (bringing a team’s defense closer to zero, or a perfect chance of winning) will be slightly more valuable than each run scored (an imperfect chance of winning since the other team could conceivably score more.)

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe

I still think these sort of macro numbers fail because of lack of context (i.e., we don’t add up all the runs scored and prevented to determine the champion, its all subdivided 162+ times at somewhat random points). This is all neat philosophy that undoubtedly has value, but is too esoteric to me to be worthwhile, particularly when you acknowledge that it is impossible to measure which option (here, Rolen, Stewart, or Player X) will actually be more valuable in context.

by Teekalong on Oct 24, 2011 2:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

His Rtot at 3B only is:

2007 (11 Games): 4
2008 (65): 2
2009 (121): 3
2010 (115): -3
2011 (42): -2

If you want to believe numbers, he has saved more runs than he has lost over his career at 3B. MLB average at 3B for that period is -1 rtot. This means that he is slightly above average,

by DumbAndNerdy on Oct 24, 2011 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

This means he isn;t great,

but I wouldn’t categorize him as a defensive liability.

by DumbAndNerdy on Oct 24, 2011 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

ian stewart has positive career marks at 3B in DRS, UZR, UZR/150, TZ, TZL, FSR

and he’s always looked the part as well; where are you getting that he’s not a good defender?

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm also a little confused where this is coming from

Check out his Aggregate Defensive Ratings (Defensive Runs Saved, TotalZone with Location data, and UZR – I hacked off the Fan scouting, because I intentionally stuffed those ballots (no I didn’t)) and Stewart was a stupidly strong defender in 2007 (SSS), slightly above average in 2008, above average in 2009, and slightly below average in 2010.

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by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

As I noted above,

I think she’s looking at career numbers that include 2B and OF stints that are killing him in dWAR and some in UZR. If you look just at 3B stats, there is no argument for him being below average.

That being said, i don’t really trusts defensive metrics anyway. But, like papally, I don’t see him being below average when you just look at 3B numbers.

by DumbAndNerdy on Oct 24, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

I could definitely say that he's not a good defender.

I can’t say for sure that he’s not an average defender. I know he’s at best the fourth place 3B defender in the division (behind Blake, Headley and Sandoval, and about even with Roberts) and he’s been outperformed over the last three seasons by Polanco, Rolen, Zimmerman and McGehee as well in the NL. That leaves him at best as the eighth best starting NL 3B. If you expand it to the MLB, he’s about the same, but a lot of this is riding on a good 2009 and the trend has been pretty bad the last couple of seasons. Players don’t typically get better at defense as they age, and it seems that Stewart’s sliding down the defensive spectrum as we should expect.

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

sandoval is not a better fielder than stewart

no way, no how. you should know better than to take sudden single-season massive increases in UZR as signs of true talent, RG. take away 2011, and he’s at -0.6 at 3B, which is far more likely to be true than the 12.6 mark he posted this year. he also grades out worse in DRS, the FSR, TZL. as for the others, well, rolen is one of the greatest defenders of all time, stewart would pretty much have to be brooks robinson to top him. polanco and zimmerman are also extremely good defenders. this was mcgehee’s first season with positive UZR at 3B since 41 innings in 2008, and all other metrics have him as poor as well.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

I really don't know if we can say that about Sandoval.

You can’t just take 2011 out of his line and be fair either, and again, I’m more inclined to weight recent performance over performances three or four seasons ago. Sandoval’s likely not as good as 2011 indicated, but he’s currently not as bad as the prior seasons either. Also, an argument could be made that his vastly improved conditioning has had that much of an impact on his defensive capability. It’s too early to say, but I’d expect 2012 to be another positive season for him. I’m obviously not so sure on Stewart.

My bottom line is still that whatever Stewart brings to the table defensively, it’s not enough to justify standing pat at the position for the Rockies instead of looking for an upgrade. It’s certainly not enough to justify on the grounds of saving the young pitching, as the fielding difference between Stewart and a -10 defender isn’t going to have as much of an impact as the difference between his bat and a +15 to +20 bat. This is especially true when the options available to upgrade elsewhere, including pitching and 2B are even less enticing, and Seth Smith makes an OF upgrade less necessary.

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree.

    I think you have a better chance of Pacheco becomeing slightly less than average defensively at 3b and being productive enough with the bat; than Stewart recovering enough with his bat to be helpful. It’s a chance I’d rather take. Don’t gey me wrong; Pacheco is destined to be a carreer PH because of his D. I’d rather use him as the stopgap than Stew and see what happens.

    That’s with the caveat that the Rox must upgrade elsewhere; via pitching and other bats as we wait for Aareando.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 24, 2011 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Why all the negativity on Pacheco?

Like most of us, I’ve only seen him for a couple months, plus once in AAA. But I don’t see “career PH” at all. I see solid regular once you give him a position and stick to it. Dude may be the 4th best hitter on the 25 man roster right now. And his defense looked just fine considering he played all year at catcher. He was a terrific 2B in college, and looked good at 3B. Give him a job, and he won’t give it up for years.

For some strange reason, I think people have taken his unexpectedly bad 2011 in AAA and written an internal story about the guy that will not change. Meanwhile, someone like Blackmon had a great AAA but a relatively poor ML performance in about the same sample as Pacheco. Now, which one is the career PH?

by BostonTransplant on Oct 24, 2011 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

The reason he's been pegged a utility is like Wiggy he does not have a position to play.

    He is a minus defender wherever he goes. I like his bat a lot. I’m not sure his bat can carry his D. In truth He reminds me alot of me.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 24, 2011 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

pacheco is exactly the kind of hitter you love

high contact, never walks or strikes out. who cares if he’s no robinson or mazeroski at the moment? there’s nothing that says he can’t improve over time. i would think you would have a far more positive opinion of him than you seem to.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Which is why I want him to be the stopgap instead of Stew....

    I want him to have the chance to improve with both his glove and his bat. I want him to have exposure to all of the Division’s pitcher’s. Righr now (besides Todd) if there was someone in a Rockies uniform I wanted to start a rally with; it’d be Pacheco because of the traits you mention.

    He’s not going to keep the OPS guys happy at a corner position Long term. He could turn into a doubles machine like I was or be that guy that will get on base somehow someway with out hitting for any power at all. He hits alot like year five Dave Magadan.

     I think he’s most likely to be a (Old school ).277/.300 avg Close to .400 OBP and maybe .330 slug player. He’s that guy you want when you absolutly have to have a base runner because he doesn’t give away an AB. Magadan carved out a fairly nice carreer with that skill set. Last I looked he was hitting coach for the Red Sox.

    I don’t see that comparo as any kind of put down at all , and RG will probably tell you I’m optomistc for once.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 25, 2011 3:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

agreed on all counts

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Something about not having a good year in AAA

and not the best minor league numbers/SSS Rockies numbers.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 24, 2011 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

286/318/369?

Out of a SSS call-up playing a position he had barely played all year? That’s damn good. Yes, he needs to hit for more power, but that’s always the last thing to come.

Call up Arenado and stick him at SS, and see if he gets those kinds of numbers.

by BostonTransplant on Oct 24, 2011 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

September numbers mean nothing.

Pacheco most likely isn’t an MLB regular. His bat should play well enough as a utility guy though.

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by Muzia on Oct 24, 2011 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with this for now.

Though I think he can develop into a MLB regular-type bat. With a few years of experience.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 24, 2011 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

He’s almost 26. The clock is certainly running against him.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Oct 24, 2011 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't get this evaluation at all

I’ve been watching baseball players both recreationally and professionally for 20 years. Other than Cargo, Tulo, and Helton, there isn’t a Rockie with a sounder approach at the plate than Pacheco. Actually, he’s actually MORE sound than Cargo and Tulo, but they’re ridiculously talented.

by BostonTransplant on Oct 24, 2011 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

the big trouble is that the one decent number of those three, the average,

is also the least repeatable. Pacheco had a higher line drive rate at the MLB level than he has in the minors save for Tri-City, I really think that limited success he did have with the Rockies, which still had him OPS less than many other younger debuts like Brandon Belt, Jerry Sands, Jimmy Paredes, even Wilin Rosario, isn’t a reliable source to make a career prediction, but even if it was, it’s just not that impressive.

by Rox Girl on Oct 24, 2011 5:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

phillies decline option on oswalt

gotta get the money to pay ryan howard to be useless somehow

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 2:09 PM MDT reply actions  

Get the money to pay Hamels, you mean

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Oct 24, 2011 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

and probably wouldn't be very good in Denver because pitches don't break at Coors.

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

i think he'd be fine here

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

we don't enough money.

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

yet we have enough money for michael cuddyer?

i doubt the two would fetch very different salaries.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 4:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Im saying we go after Cuddyer. I want Wright. Not that there is much of a difference there either.

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

that's fine, but you can't say that we can afford cuddyer's likely 3/33

and not oswalt

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

I dont know what we can afford and what we can't

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

we don’t enough money.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

so what are you trying to say here?

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

you can't say we could afford cuddyer but not oswalt, when their salaries next year will probably be within ~2mil of each other.

if we can afford cuddyer, which

Im saying we go after Cuddyer.
implies you believe, then you also believe we can afford oswalt

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Whatever it takes to put a winning team on the field.

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 5:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wwhile we're on defense...

    AM I the only one who thinks our outfield is slipping? Spilly and Smith regressed badly. Dex is taking screwyer routes. Even Cargo had some bad days. I did not see enough of Blackmon to tell. I hear mixed reports about Wheeler. How are you going to trade people when they are average bats and poor defenders?

    I’d also like to hear how Swanner’s and Rutledges D are doing?

    So Oswalt retires or becomes a Yankee.or an insufferable SAWX? Maye the ’stros new owner has something else in mind?

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 24, 2011 3:17 PM MDT reply actions  

He's got Red Sox written all over him

Doncha think? Older guy who used to be great, overpaid, decent enough to rack up some wins with that lineup, but in the end pure dead wood.

by BostonTransplant on Oct 24, 2011 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

You think so? I'm not seeing it.

1. Smith: I don’t think many people expected him to replicate his 2009 season given regular at-bats. 2010 was a huge disappointment, but he bounced back nicely and I’m still seeing him as excellent trade bait if the Rockies decide to go that route.

2. Spilborghs: He’s given us some amazing years and is an incredibly likeable player, but I think he basically reached his ceiling in being a quality bench bat from 2007-2010. I certainly didn’t expect him to regress that much this year, but I never got the impression that he was a coveted asset to begin with.

3. Fowler: I think that 2012 is the year that Dex finally turns it around and ends up with an all-star year. I have no idea what’s up with those first-half slumps, but his comments after being called up this year about “learning to enjoy baseball again” has me believing that he’s learned how to harness his talent.

4. CarGo: Honestly, he’s one of the best pure hitters in baseball, and I’d imagine that playing “smarter” in the outfield has to help. I’m not worried about him at all.

I’m certainly not sold on Blackmon and Wheeler (I think the latter should be a sell-high canditate this season) but if they don’t pan out, we’ll have another wave of high-upside OF prospects near MLB-level by that time: Parker, Ortega, Dickerson. I really think OF is a position of great depth in this organization.

by steakman on Oct 24, 2011 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Foagie's talking about defense mostly

And I sort of agree. Cargo’s obviously close to the best there is. But I’ve never been a huge fan of Dexter’s D. I mean, it’s quite good. He’s fast and catches everything he gets to. But his arm is just OK and his “great play” ratio seems, anecdotally, to be down. Smith’s completely “meh,” both hitting and defensively. So overall it’s OK, far from our biggest problem, in fact not really a problem at all. But unless you hit it to Cargo, it’s not a strength either.

by BostonTransplant on Oct 24, 2011 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

this isn't football; defense doesn't win championships

the brewers had several terrible defenders, and nearly made the world series in spite of it. good pitching and good hitting will outpace poor defense any day.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Spilly is irrelevant to the conversation. He's played his last game in a Rockies uniform

Cargo, Fowler, Blackmon, and Wheeler can all technically play CF. No problems there.

Smith had a rough year defensively, but still would be a slightly below average corner defender. Nothing to worry about here.

Rutledge was drafted as a gloveman, so no concerns about his defense.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Oct 24, 2011 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

My main problem with Seth

If you’re going to be that bad in the OF, you’ve gotta hit with more power. The doubles are good, but we need 20+ HRs out of that spot, IMO

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 24, 2011 4:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Eh, I’ll take a .900ish OPS platoon bat to complement Cargo in the outfield.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Oct 24, 2011 4:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

Smith's yet another guy with a swiss cheese swing ...

Hits anything straight from a right hander. Anything else, he’s very pitchable. I think he’s a classic “sell high” player, because his overall numbers look alright. Pretty good actually. It’s only when you have him on your team that you realize he’s got these holes in his swing. I will say, though, that he tried. Of all the Rox, he and 2nd half Dex are the only guys who seemed to realize they needed to adjust their approaches.

by BostonTransplant on Oct 24, 2011 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

I was only talking defense in the out field.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 24, 2011 3:49 PM MDT reply actions  

Sorry, I completely missed the title line about defense...

Dexter doesn’t always seem to take a direct route to the ball, but (at least from my observation) he’s so fast that he nearly always makes up for it. I feel like I saw a TON of “wow” plays from him, though of course I can’t back this up at all, as defensive metrics seem to hate outfielders at Coors. As Muzia said, Seth Smith is just “meh” — he’s not great, certainly, but not terrible either.

Overall, I’m with papality here — the offensive capabilities of this group are more important and far outweigh any defensive issues they might have.

by steakman on Oct 24, 2011 5:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

JFK's Quote of the Day:

“This is a great city to play. Anywhere you go, you’re going to have great fans, but not like you have here in St. Louis. I’ve only played in St. Louis, I haven’t played anywhere else, but even when the other teams come here they tell us, ‘Man I can’t believe how nice the fans are here.’” ~Albert Pujols

"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK

by jrockies on Oct 24, 2011 5:26 PM MDT reply actions  

Go Rangers!

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 6:32 PM MDT reply actions  

LOL...Hahhahah Derek Holland

is hilarious. Just did a perfect imitation of Harry Carey

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 6:54 PM MDT reply actions  

Holy carp Moreland hit that into the 3rd deck!

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 7:03 PM MDT reply actions  

cmon matty, make him pay

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 7:40 PM MDT reply actions  

or not.

not works too.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 7:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

5 men left on for Holliday in his last two AB's

I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 24, 2011 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

He's been kind of like Hamilton this series

he’s hurt and has no business hitting in the middle of the order

by MCDallas on Oct 24, 2011 7:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

I rather like these Texas fans

I thought it was cool when they were all chanting “Let’s Go C.J.”

And of course the Napoli chant.

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 7:45 PM MDT reply actions  

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

CARDS!

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 7:51 PM MDT reply actions  

tie game!!! wooo

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 8:12 PM MDT reply actions  

Uh. Why would you steal right there?

I think somebody messed up something

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 8:27 PM MDT reply actions  

Texas is walking a tightrope

I don’t know if that is a good sign or a bad sign.

by MCDallas on Oct 24, 2011 8:35 PM MDT reply actions  

Andrus is no Tulo, Moreland is no Helton

It’s funny watching other teams try to make that play.

I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 24, 2011 8:52 PM MDT reply actions  

If we didn't have Tulo, I'd take Andrus

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh he's very good

And that’s part of the point. Even some of the better players can look foolish on a play Tulo and Helton make look routine.

I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 24, 2011 9:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Can he play 2nd?

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't know. But I don't think he's available anyway

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wow, now THAT was very Tulo-Heltonesque

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 8:58 PM MDT reply actions  

There's the Octavio Dotel I remember

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:01 PM MDT reply actions  

I'm calling this goes to extra innings

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:05 PM MDT reply actions  

Maybe not!

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Oct 24, 2011 9:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Okay that Conoco Philips ad is REALLLLY annoying

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:07 PM MDT reply actions  

4-2 Texas now. Never mind my extra inning prediction :)

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:13 PM MDT reply actions  

Ron Washington is a hoot

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Leave it to LaRussa to waste a pitcher on an intentional walk

to help buy time for the next relief to get warm.

And the pitcher he took out looked none too happy

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:21 PM MDT reply actions  

wait wait

he’s a genius! You can’t possibly understand the variables involved in making that move. You must not be a chess player.

by MCDallas on Oct 24, 2011 9:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

lol

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Turns out that Lynn wasn't supposed to be warming up

Motte was. LaRussa says he was expecting Motte to be warming up and when he motioned for the right-hander he wasn’t expecting Lynn to come out. He wasn’t going to pitch today, so he let him intentionally walk Kinzler while Motte warmed up.

by MCDallas on Oct 24, 2011 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

This may be the stupidest thing I have ever seen

bringing in a pitcher just to intentionally walk a guy.

by MCDallas on Oct 24, 2011 9:21 PM MDT reply actions  

Strike em out throw em out! woo hoo

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:33 PM MDT reply actions  

Strike em out throw em out DP!

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Oct 24, 2011 9:33 PM MDT reply actions  

This might be Renck's nerdiest tweet ever
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Napoli has officially self-actualized

hahaha

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:37 PM MDT reply actions  

Bah.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Oct 24, 2011 9:42 PM MDT reply actions  

TEXAS WINS!!!!!!

This has been one hell of a series.

It's Jim Tracy's Fault.

by wolf213 on Oct 24, 2011 9:43 PM MDT reply actions  

Awww, Darren Oliver gets the win.

Useless stat, I know, but I have a soft spot for the guy still, so that makes me happy.

by holly96 on Oct 24, 2011 9:45 PM MDT reply actions  

I know!

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

A win/win situation, afaic....

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Oct 24, 2011 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hey

Schumaker is a FA at the end of the year. Can we get him to play second?

"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK

by jrockies on Oct 24, 2011 10:00 PM MDT reply actions  

we probably could

not sure why we would want to, though; he’s terrible at baseball.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 10:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

This would not be a bad idea. I would take him. Plus, he can play OF.

Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Oct 24, 2011 10:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

OT: Sitting here watching old skool "Halloween" by myself

this movie still scares the crap out of me!

eeek!

Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Oct 24, 2011 10:59 PM MDT reply actions  

You shouldn't have ordered the deviled eggs...

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Oct 25, 2011 1:07 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

it would be really difficult to not root for texas

good thing i picked the easy way out.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

be happy, because 2012 is coming.

by papality on Oct 24, 2011 11:02 PM MDT reply actions  

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Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AAA
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