Tuesday Rockpile: Carlos Gonzalez - Glove of Gold or Pyrite?
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 7:50 AM MDT
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Carlos Gonzalez sure looks pretty playing the outfield. He has a laser arm (led the league with 12 assists), can play all three positions, has good speed, and isn't afraid to slide, jump, crash or dive in order to haul in a fly ball. He does this. He is all you can want toolwise as an outfielder, and he won a Gold Glove in his first career full season in 2010.
In 2011, Gonzalez was not even named as a finalist in left field (where he played the most innings). Instead, Gerardo Parra deservedly was named a finalist. Matt Holliday is earning a reputation as a horrible fielder due to his recent playoff gaffes, but while he isn't pretty, he is like the Hunter Pence of defense - he's actually pretty effective despite looking disjointed. Oh, and he had a better UZR than Gonzalez. Ryan Braun actually had the 7th worst LF UZR in the league out of 120 players, but a combination of his MVP-caliber season with the bat and one single error gave him the nod.
So the question - why was Gonzalez omitted? CarGo himself assumes it was versatility that killed him. For the first time, MLB will separate the three outfield Gold Gloves into LF, CF, and RF, instead of handing out three OF awards. Gonzalez played roughly half his innings in LF, with the remaining half split between center and right. The Denver Post's Jim Armstrong agrees CarGo was jobbed.
Granted, Holliday and Braun earned their spot in the finals due to offensive accolades as much as anything. But versatility isn't the "only logical reason for CarGo's omission," as Armstrong suggests.
Perhaps CarGo isn't that fantastic of a fielder after all. /gasp! While playing left field, CarGo put up a UZR of -3.1, good for 110th out of 120 players in the NL. He was worth -0.6 runs overall, good for 70th overall. Yes, yes, you say UZR is bologna. Maybe you prefer RZR, where he ranks 90th? Out of Zone plays (OOZ), where he's 25th? Fielding percentage? 8th. Dewan's Defensive Runs Saved? 15th. Baseball Reference Total Zone? 138th.
There are a lot of statistical methods out there for defense, and many work in completely different ways. While each have their flaws, none of them suggest he was an elite fielder in 2011. None. So what is the only rational, objective conclusion? It isn't to throw out all defensive statistics completely decrying them all as worthless, instead trusting your eyes as you watched 50 or so games on TV, or even 81 in person. Just as watching offense can provide sample size bias and reputation bias, so too can it extend to defense.
Is Carlos Gonzalez a bad fielder? I would definitely say no, and not nearly as poor as UZR and Total Zone (the most cited SABR defensive stats) say. Fans have every right to be suspicious of defensive metrics that don't pass the eye test and fudge the rankings a bit to account for it, as long as all numerical evidence isn't thrown out the window in favor of a much SerSS "eye test."
Gerardo Parra deserves the LF Gold Glove completely, but even if Ryan Braun or Matt Holliday win by virtue of their bats, we shouldn't complain. CarGo got his last year.
More Defense
Rockies shortstop Troy Tulowitzki scoops up another Fielding Bible Award | ColoradoRockies.com: News Ours eyes don't always disagree with the numbers. Bill James' +/- credits Tulowitzki as making the most plays above average than any player in baseball. Amusingly enough, Tulo's DRS and UZR are both 2nd in the NL....to Clint Barmes. But last place teams don't generally see their "converted second baseman" steal hardware from a former teammate. Tulo will win a Gold Glove as well.
2011 Beyond the Box Score Catcher Defense Ratings: Year-End Edition - Beyond the BoxScore Catcher defense is the most difficult to quantify, as it is far more than caught stealing percentage and errors. Mike Fast did a lot with pitch framing, Bojan Koprivica did the same with pitch blocking. Matt Klaassen, also of Fangraphs and @devil_fingers on twitter, has compiled his own method, combining throwing error runs, fielding error runs, caught stealings, and passed ball/wild pitch prevention. Note: pitch framing is not included.
Of the 114 catchers in 2011, Chris Iannetta ranks 10th. That is pretty damn good. Most of his prowess comes from not being especially poor in any area, but his "throwing error runs" term ranks 2nd overall in MLB, nearly eclipsing Matt Wieters for the top. If Mike Fast's conclusions on framing are correct, we should probably add that Iannetta ranked 3rd worst in pitch framing in 2011, enough to push him far down the list.
For the interest of completeness, Klaassen has Yorvit Torrealba ranked 28th, Matt Pagnozzi 45th, Mike McKenry 80th, Eliezer Alfonzo 90th, Jose Morales 98th, and Miguel Olivo 113th.
Off-Season Direction
The quotes coming out of the front office have been pretty vague so far this offseason. "We could stand pat, sell pieces or buy pieces" tells us nothing. "We won't be getting Jose Reyes" isn't helpful. O'Dowd's latest "We have some guys we have thoughts about as we put a team together" provides zero insight. We are told a "big ticket deal" is "not out of the question" but the absence of a denial is far from proof of committal. Even the specific players the Rockies have been linked to seem to be a product of writers asking Dan O'Dowd, the Monforts or Jim Tracy "Are you interested in Player X" resulting in a "Sure, he's one of the (100 plus) players we're looking at."
All doors are either wide open, or the Rockies' brass want us (and other organizations) to think that's the case. Even after declining Aaron Cook's option for 2012, O'Dowd won't shut the door on re-signing the 2008 All-Star returning, even though the events required to make that a good idea would be a disastrous offseason.
I suppose it's fine this way. After all, they were more specific last year around this time:
"We need an impactful bat, another piece to enhance those guys. It makes so much sense," Tracy said. "We will be looking for something like that."
That ended up being Ty Wigginton. I suppose if we don't know the ultimate goal in the front office, we won't know if they fail to reach it. I just hope the ultimate goal is far higher than Ty Wigginton this time around.
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OT: Everyone with a remote interest in tech news
should check out the new SB Nation partnership, The Verge. It launched this morning, and it’s pretty spectacular…
You can even use your SBN login.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Arg! Clutter-tastic homepage.
I thought sbnation.com was a bit busy. The Verge is on the verge of media explosion.
And it didn't even let me know if the Rox signed Capuano.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yep.
It hurts my eyes, and you can’t really scan through the articles to see something that might interest you.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
As if I don't have enough information blasted at me every minute of the day
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonarda da Vinci
Leo understood web design.
He also invented flight
but even he never could have imagined in-flight internet…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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It is pretty cluttered
but the commenting system is fantastic. I’m z’ing everywhere.
I sincerely hope this is a test for the new version of SBN site commenting.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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I don't care what the sabermetrics says.
He is a hell of fielder. He committed 0 errors in RF and CF. LF, he had 1. Yet, he isn’t deserving of a Gold Glove.
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
a man in a wheelchair would commit zero errors in the outfield
He would never reach any balls. Errors are a BAD way to rate outfielders.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 8:27 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
and sabermetrics are?
How can they show that he is NOT a good fielder?
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
they are much MUCH better
Fandom, small sample size viewing and an amateur eye have just as specious objectivity at worst
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 8:34 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
or in other words,
Sabermetric defensive statistics are most commonly compiled by baseball people watching every play and crossreferencing plays against a detailed grid. I have watched a lot of baseball in my time, and I don’t know about you, but I don’t think I’m nearly smart enough to proclaim my eyes (in the limited games I actually see with the limited view of tv) to be of such better quality that I should completely ignore professionals objectively and carefully chronicling every play. If I were that adept and smart, I would have Dan O’Dowd’s job. Sometimes (oftentimes), when statistics disagree with your preconceived notions, it is because you aren’t as smart as you think you are, not because the statistics are meaningless.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 8:40 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh, I'm not smart at all. I didn't watch every game. I saw quite a few but not enough.
I’ve watched a lot of baseball in my years. I don’t understand the metric stuff and probably never will even if I tried to figure them out. I’m not saying the metrics are meaningless, there has to be something to them, otherwise they wouldn’t be there. I just know and watch a good fielder when I see one. Everybody will agree on that statement. He’s a good fielder. Some things just say he isn’t. If he isn’t as good as I think he is. That’s my problem. I will stick with it. I have nothing against anybody who can understand them and goes by them stats. I’ve learned a lot on here from you guys. Maybe in during this offseason, I can learn how they work.
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Saying "I don't care what sabermetrics say" is effectively saying "The metrics are meaningless"
I don’t fully understand them either, and frankly, I don’t trust them. But I also know that our eyes are wowed – especially on TV – by Cargo Superman plays, and we miss more of the routine stuff.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Defensive matrix's, Gahhh ohhhh you
Is GG nominated by players? Media? Coaches? I forget…All are flawed slightly as almost all post season awards are, but Outfield assists gotz to be pretty high on the qualifiers…
I throw a fit in protest and apologize not for it. I hate when numbers win…
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Nov 1, 2011 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Coaches
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Does Cargo's low ranking mean that UZR thinks he misses a lot of the routine plays?
As I see it, there are routine plays and there are borderline plays. Some guys might be really consistent at making the routine plays, but not have the range to make the borderline ones. Others might be really fast and athletic, and able to make a larger percentage of the borderline plays, yet perhaps they make bad judgements and fail to get the routine plays too often. We know that Cargo is fast and athletic, so he would have to be in the latter category if he’s a below average fielder. I just don’t remember seeing him let enough catchable balls drop to think this is true.
It must be
Or he has to play plays on a bounce that a more rangey fielder could get to.
That’s what UZR might be looking at – not that I necessarily agree with that evaluation.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions
I dont watch enough either
But when i feel like Drew Goodman and Jim Armstrong although it maybe through biased glasses at times have seen a heck of a lot of baseball games at the Major League level and they dont say he is an the 120th best outfielder in baseball
I love watching Carlos in the OF
Because he’s capable of making some amazing plays. But I don’t think it’s a tragedy if he misses out on a Gold Glove. He still has lapses where he tries to gun down lead runners when he has no chance, misses cutoff men, etc. Correct these weaknesses and someday soon he will be the best defensive OF in the game, regardless of position.
But then, you have something like this happen.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=17808735
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Yeah those plays are fantastic
But part of being a Gold Glover is knowing when you don’t have a real shot at the lead runner. So you make the smart, conservative play and keep the DP in order – that kind of thing. Carlos will get there.
by Northsider1964 on Nov 1, 2011 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions
It still won't matter because he is too versatile.
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
When did CarGo miss his cutoff men
or tries to gun someone when he has no chance this year? People don’t run on him anymore, because of his LAZOR.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Well, he led the league in assists....
…..suggesting quite a few players are still trying to run on him.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
precisely
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm not saying that NEVER run on him.
but he doesn’t get challenged as often as they used to.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Well, he led the league in assists….
He gets plenty of respect, but there’s still lots of chances for him.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
He did it a few times last year, especially when he was in CF
and Dex was in the Springs. It’s not that he does it all the time, and it’s a somwhat forgiveable offense for a young OF with a cannon arm. But it’s the one aspect of his defense that needs some improvement.
by Northsider1964 on Nov 1, 2011 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Dear Carlos
Please stop running at eleven billion percent into to the OF wall.
Thanks
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 9:38 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
CarGo needs echolocation to help him know where the walls are.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
Heh. Surgically implanted GPS
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Maybe just those beeping noises that some SUVs make if there's something behind them when they're backing up.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
LOL..that's funny
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Include it in the optional package with the LAZOR
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
I don't disagree with the Gold Glove winners
since offense seems to play a big role but Cargo should have at least been in the discussion for his hitting combined with his OF skills.
The Rays, as expected, kept Shields.
This makes it a near certainty that they will move one of their starters. They also declined their option with Shoppach. That leaves them with Jaso, Lobaton, and Chirinos at C. They might be interested in one of our two catchers. What do we think about this?
Josh Willingham wants a 3 year deal.
Sorry, but I’ll pass. Next.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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DAMN!
There goes that.
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Josh Willingham off the list
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Why?
If we want the guy, we have to eat another year and take the risk. If we’re not willing to do that, it’s another off season diet of Lopez and Wigginton types.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 1, 2011 9:50 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Because we already have a crowded outfield
which might leave him with no place to play for two of the three years of his contract. So, we’re giving up big money and a draft pick for one year of slightly above average offense and questionable defense.
No thanks.
But if he has a good year here
might he not have some trade value once we don’t have a spot for him anymore?
I’m definitely not the driver of the Willingham bandwagon, but I don’t see a 3 year deal as a total deal breaker. It’s not as if he’s 38, and it’s not as if he’s asking for 8 or 9 years.
Personally, I don’t love the idea of his defense, but since we’ve apparently been suffering along with CarGo’s defensive inadequacy, we can probably live with Willingham….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Personally, I don’t love the idea of his defense, but since we’ve apparently been suffering along with CarGo’s defensive inadequacy, we can probably live with Willingham….
HAHA! rec.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
My issue with Willingham
is that he’s a low-contact guy. In Coors Field, I want someone that puts the ball in play as much as possible.
Don’t get me wrong, he would likely do pretty well here. But I would rather have a different kind of bat as a permanent OF, especially if we are giving up a draft pick.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
makes sense
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions
You should start a club.
In Coors Field, I want someone that puts the ball in play as much as possible.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
As long as they are batting.
Someone putting the ball in play as much as possible on defense isn’t a great thing unless they are all infield ground balls.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Right.
I like Cuddyer because we might move him over to 1B in a year or two. Willingham is not a long-term solution, so I’d rather not pick him up on a three-year deal.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions
cant willingham be moved to 1b too?
hes only played 4 total innings there but I imagine it can be done
It's possible,
but I’d rather have Cuddyer there because his glove would probably be worth quite a few runs over Willingham.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions
Well, he's a RH power guy. . .
And if we’re targeting RH power guys, isn’t low contact to be expected?
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions
Does it have to be that way?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Well, technically no.
But it’s to be expected.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
At Coors, just put the ball in play consistently and you'll have a reasonable SLG %
Tasty gaps.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Weren't people saying this about Jose Lopez?
(yes, one guy is going to prove you wrong :P)
But seriously, you’re right and everything, but I don’t want to shy away from a really good offensive talent just because he doesn’t put the ball in play enough. He’d tear up Coors
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Well yeah, but Jose Lopez is a terrible baseball player.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Worst swing I've ever seen from a position player.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Because he’s 33, a Type A free agent, and I don’t want to compete with the Phillies and Giants for his services through age 36.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
ATF:
Defensive metrics are shoddy, as noted. I think it helps to dig deeper into the numbers. He is suffering quite dramatically in LF from a lack of PO. This is what is skewing his numbers to be artificially low. Even though he has about half the number of innings in LF as Parra, he has I’m not saying that he was better than Parra, but he is a little over 1/3 of the chances and under 1/3 of the POs.
I’m not saying that he’s better than Parra, but the weakness with the defensive numbers are based on their often weak foundations. Cargo is suffering statistically in LF because the ball wasn’t hit to him as much as it was hit to Parra. That’s not really a fair assessment.
Edit this sentence:
Even though he has about half the number of innings in LF as Parra,he has I’m not saying that he was better than Parra, but he ishe has a little over 1/3 of the chances and under 1/3 of the POs.
it isn't about putouts per chances
That is RZR, which some people prefer anyway. That doesn’t take into account the average difficulty of each play. We cannot assume they were identical.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 8:50 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
My point wasn't about putouts per chances
it was about the oddly small number of chances. And, comparing it with other LF, they are mostly inline with Parra’s CH/IP numbers. For some reason, no-one hit the ball to Cargo while he was out there.
that is really only partially true
Extra chances certainly provide more chances to compile counting stats, obviously. But his UZR is negative. At The same rate, more chances would only push him further away. And no matter how hard you try, chances alone don’t explain a near 13 UZR difference.
Yes, defensive metrics are flawed. Enough that I wrote he is probably better than the numbers say. But our extremely non-objective eyes are also flawed. You really trust what you see over six or seven different methods that all conclude he isn’t the wizard he is painted as? I’m not advocating for taking sabr stats to be 100% accurate. But the only way to suggest CarGo was elite in 2011 is to ignore them completely in favor of just as poor methods. That seems pretty unwise.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 8:48 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
You really trust what you see over six or seven different methods that all conclude he isn’t the wizard he is painted as?
I never said he was a wizard. I just think that the individual stats don’t tell a complete story, just one part of the story. You need to look at his entire line and decode what was happening.
Here is a quote from the FG article on UZR:
- Since UZR is a counting statistic like RBIs or HRs, the more playing time a player accrues, the higher (or lower) their UZR will be. In order to compare players with different amounts of playing time, UZR can be scaled on a 150 game basis (UZR/150). If you want to compare a player with 90 games played to someone with 140, UZR/150 would be the way to do so.
- Beware of sample sizes! Like with any defensive statistic, you should always use three years of UZR data before trying to draw any conclusions on the true talent level of a fielder.
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/defense/uzr/
I think that when you start digging into the states, the first thing you see is that his chances in LF were so low, that it’s really hard to draw any conclusions about how good he really was out there based on his stats. He has the equivalent of a September call-up’s number of chances in the outfield. This SSS makes most of the stats he has for 2011 negligible.
I don;t think you say that he was a wizard nor a goat based on these stats.
I didn't say YOU called him a wizard, just that he is painted as such
See Armstrong’s article this morning. And yes, as I said, UZR is a counting stat, so more chances would help. But only if the rate component UZR/150 is in the same neighborhood. And…if you dig a little deeper in the stats…you will see Parra trumps him by a large margin still.
So now the argument is SSS. Sure, the errors in measuring performance increase with lower sample size. But I have three problems with this: one is that we are introducing more qualifiers to just ignore data, two is that I included a half dozen different methods which more or less agree minimizing the error and you are only attacking UZR, and three: the stats measure performance, not ability.
If Jordan Pacheco hit more home runs in a month than Albert Pujols, no one would argue Pujols is still better even though Pacheco produced more. Why is it so hard to believe a less talented player can outproduce another player defensively in a small sample, or even a year? We give out offensive awards based on production comfortably, but we ignore statistical production in favor of reputation defensively? That largely due to the admittedly larger kinks in defensive metrics, but they are being ignored completely all too conveniently in my opinion.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 9:28 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
But I have three problems with this: one is that we are introducing more qualifiers to just ignore data
I’m not ignoring the data. I’m looking deeper at it, because the data you are citing are primarily rating stats that are based on formulas that are using a SSS to calculate a type of rating. If you look at the stats that the ratings are based on, you can see that he very quickly starts to look better.
two is that I included a half dozen different methods which more or less agree minimizing the error and you are only attacking UZR
Actually, I’m not attacking UZR. They’re almost all utilizing the same error-prone SSS. I was just using UZR as an example, but they’re all based on the same problem of an extremely low number of plays in LF to compare against other players.
and three: the stats measure performance, not ability.
The straight stats (PO, CH, A, E, DP) measure performance. Once you start with Rtot, RF/9, lgRFG, you start to take those numbers as a measure of comparison. This is where the numbers start to fall because his comparative stats are hurt by the SSS.
Again, I’m not discounting the stats altogether. But the SSS makes them difficult to use to support a comparative argument that he is better or worse than another player. This also makes if difficult to compare him against the league over a single season when he has the number of plays in LF equivalent to 1/5 of a season. I think it is important to acknowledge that when looking at all of the stats listed.
Actually, our non-objective eyes may be better at this than you think
There’s an emerging field of research in statistics and psychology (which overlap quite a bit) that suggests that for complex systems that we can only measure indirectly, the instinctive, evolution-honed conclusions of our senses are actually more predictive than data. It’s quite possible all the defensive stats are worse than useless. They’re just chaotic (in the mathematical sense).
by BostonTransplant on Nov 1, 2011 9:56 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
that ignores one large problem
The stats are based on every play, relative to others. Our personal eyes see only the games we manage to watch, and only by the view tv shows us (unless we are in person). That is a HUGE strike against the accuracy there. It’s like watching a couple weeks and proclaiming to know who hit the most home runs on the team all year.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 10:20 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
how is the uzr data compiled?
don’t they use the tv broadcast too? or are they watching some other film?
No it's not.
For a more apt comparison, it’s like watching a couple weeks and proclaiming a hitter has a swing that doesn’t cover the inside half of the plate.
And that’s a judgement that’s not exactly crazy to make.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
I'll say it: He's better than Parra
And don’t get me wrong, I think Parra’s a really good player. But there’s a reason why Gibson turns to other players to spell Young in CF. Parra is a very good but not spectacular OF.
by Northsider1964 on Nov 1, 2011 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't think inability to play cf or a manager's preferences
Are necessarily proof of ability to play LF
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 8:55 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe not, but I'll still take Carlos over Parra at any OF position
Even though I think Parra is a very fine corner OF.
by Northsider1964 on Nov 1, 2011 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions
I think UZR is an excellent tool for judging infielders. I don’t trust the park adjustments for the outfield.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
it hates our outfield for sure
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I just sort of feel like we’re putting more nuance into the voting for GG than is actually put into play. I think any superstar that ends up with a few web gems gets the nod over anyone else. The “incumbent” is going to get voted back into office more often than not. Then maybe the young upstart on a good team.
I think Cargo missed not an insignificant amount of time, and that’s probably what is going to hurt him more than anything else.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions
well yeah, that and his less than superstar bat are actually what hurt him
Not the versatility. But in terms of actually deserving, he probably wasn’t anyway.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 10:23 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
We're trying to start an OOTP online league of Rowbots.
Click the following link for more information:
http://www.purplerow.com/2011/10/31/2527245/purple-row-ootp-12-online-league
Go Team.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
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Miss you guys
but the new job is fantastic.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
woot!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Team retired.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions
What kind of money will Grady Sizemore be looking for?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
I'm going to say dollars,
but maybe he likes euros because they were doing pretty well at holding their value. Unfortunately, with the European debt crisis, the euro is now equally screwed. If I were him, I’d think about rupees.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
dubloons are making a comeback.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmOREzTI20&feature=related
Goodbye 2011, hello uncertainty about 2012...
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 1, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions
loonies?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions
But only purple ones
because they’re worth 50.
Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider! --George Carlin
That's a good question
Of all the contracts this offseason, the one I’m most interested in isn’t the one that Pujols, Fielder, or Reyes will get — it’s the leap of faith that someone will take with Sizemore. One year, $4 million with incentives? Two years, $14 million guaranteed? More? Less? I have no idea. Whoever makes the deal is likely to be disappointed.
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/11/1/2528931/grady-sizemore-free-agent-agency-contract
I wish I had anything definitive. I think he’s worth whatever we were gonna pay Lance Berkman. For one year.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions
He is only 29 years old compared to Berkman last year who was 38
I think your right. I think hes worth what we were gonna give Berkman. Its one of those Boom or Bust type situations. However, I wonder if our FO is even considering OF as a need right now with Smith/Blackmon as choices that will probably be cheaper. I would hoope they would look at it because 3B and 2B are very shallow.
Obviously check him out healthwise first, but we have a few other guys to spell him to keep him healthy.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions
to try to keep him healthy
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions
I dunno. I really think Sizemore is dead from a baseball standpoint.
Deader than Beltran.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yeah. As I said yesterday,
if we’re going to take a risk, I’d rather take a risk on Garrett Jones. I don’t Sizemore taking less than $2 million per year. Jones with get less than half that. The possible reward might be less, but the punishment for failure is far lower.
Risk on Garret Jones?
What does Garret Jones have to offer? He has really never shown much. I’m guessing he is a sub .200 vs LH Pitching
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Sizemore hasn’t shown anything since 2008, and has at least a dozen surgeries in that time. He’s toast.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
At least he has shown Something before. That article said Paul Molitor was injured during his 20’s and came back in his 30’s
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Microfracture surgery on a CF is a death sentence.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Why? If a basketball player can come back
after microfracture surgery I would think a CF should be able to as well
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Its even more of a death sentence on a 6'9 PF
but Kenyon Martin still plays with 2 of them
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
This is exactly who I thought of
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
This is exactly who I thought of
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I thought each knee deserved a mention.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
by SDcat09 on Nov 1, 2011 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
this was your best doublepost recovery ever.
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
And he’s the only one to play with microfracture on each knee. And his game isn’t what it once was, because he’s still 6’9".
Sizemore was a superstar because his production was elite for a good defensive CF. He’s no longer a CF, and his “production” since then doesn’t play at the corner OF.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
this should read
And his game isn’t what it once was, but he can still be an effective power forward because he’s still 6’9".
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
And that is why it is a Risk/Reward situation. High risk with possibility of injuries but also possibility of good production
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions
I see less than 10% chance of good production. We’re talking much bigger surprise than Lance Berkman coming back from the grave.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
And yeah
I personally agree it would be a huge risk. But this team needs a huge boost to get it to the World Series type level. And we don’t have a ton of money to play with. We either need a top 1 or 2 starter or a 3, 4, 5 bat and can’t afford to mortgage the farm. So it was just a possibility to look at depending on the investment.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions
If we can get him for a heavy-incentive contract, count me in.
He’ll sign for guaranteed money somewhere.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Thats because he had more than 2x amount of Plate Appearances vs RH’s than LH’s
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions
Offseason wishlist:
- Not Ty Wigginton. We paid Wigginton 4 Mil and Jose Lopez instead of bringing in a proven producer. Clint Barmes would have done just as well at 2B at about the same cost. To be fair we didnt know we had a huge problem at 3B at the time, but between those two or in house option Herrera 2B was going to be covered. Please trade Wigginton and use the savings for Ellis or an actual upgrade at 2B.
- In correlation to #1, not Carl Pavano. Why shell out prospects and 8 Mil to bring in Pavano when Cook or Milwood might be able to put up similar numbers. If they want to stabalize the rotation then they should bring in a proven innings eater who hasn’t shown decline yet, Mark Buerhle. He only wants to play for a couple more years or so and would only be looking for 2 or 3 years for a contract around 15M/year. If we pitch a run at the postseason he might be interested as he is intrigued about pitching in the NL (though admittedly in the Midwest). If not Buerhle, then at least someone that can be counted on though I think Buerhle is by far the most consistent out there.
- Not to rely completely on young arms. Bring in Francis, Milwood, Cook on value contracts to provide depth and known quantities.
that's always really weird.
Can you do me a favor and email that to support@sbnation.com?
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions
Last night, I dreamt that I roamed far into the desert.
I found a tall tower built next to a small oasis. I climbed the tower, navigating traps and loose walkways, only to find a room on the top.
I entered the room, and was face to face with C.J. Wilson. I explained to him that Colorado was a lovely place, with lovely fans, and then offered him a 4 year contract worth $60 milllion.
He accepted. I presented Wilson in front of Dan O’Dowd at a banquet, and the Kingdom rejoiced.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
you have the weirdest freaking dreams
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 1, 2011 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions
lol wut?
ಠ_ಠ
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 9:33 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
See, I know this story.
C.J. wilson is Pan, and you’re the goat thing that looks like Pan. You’re just ripping off Pan’s Labyrinth. Minus the face getting smashed in with the wine bottle.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions
SpinningTracy.gif
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 9:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Tywigginton.gif
Goodbye 2011, hello uncertainty about 2012...
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 1, 2011 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm behind idea number 1
Wigginton can go take a walk off the top of Mt Elbert.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 9:28 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I like the combination idea at 2nd
Ellis/Johnson or Hill…
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
Pitchers that are FA's that I would be interested in
Erik Bedard
Rich Harden
Edwin Jackson
Hiroki Kuroda
Chris Young
Jeff Francis
Livan Hernandez
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
hahaha I snuck that one in there as a half joke. I use to hate him but I have come to respect him and how he pitches.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions
11.75 hits per 9 IP with the Rockies
DO NOT WANT
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 9:29 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
hahaha I want 13 hits per 9
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions
I think Joel Zumaya is a Free Agent
haha, I am not sure if his arm comes with that though
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
I want Broxton actually
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
A newly rejuvenated Broxton? Yes please.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
We may need him
If Wigginton goes away (please yes) we need someone to fill the teams fat guy quota
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 9:58 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey! He's not fat. He's just a big boy all around.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yeah, well so am i
:smug:
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 10:56 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I would agree with this statement
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I want Hisiashi Iwakuma
okay I’ll stop
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
I want Yu Darvish.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I love his invisi-pitch
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
It's as good Matsuzaka's gyroball
/yeah, I bet it is.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 9:49 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I think the Gold Glove really has more to do with a player’s “super star” status and the prowess of the player’s team. How else would Matt Holiday be considered for the Gold Glove?
It's all about the Money and PR and Publicity
MLB makes no money when Clint Barmes wins a Gold Glove, but when Tulo does it goes bigger. Same goes with Gerardo Parra versus Ryan Braun.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
What do you all think of Jed Lowrie as a 3B?
We’ve liked him in the past, and it seems to me the Sox and Rox match up on a lot of levels, not least because Cherington and O’Dowd are buds from way back. Maybe take him for Boston taking Street’s salary?
by BostonTransplant on Nov 1, 2011 10:09 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
I have no Idea what Jed Lowrie is worth or anything
but yeah sure bring him in Can he play 2nd Too?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Why would Boston do that?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Because they are a charity
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
because their new GM is Ben Cherity?
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 10:33 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Because they need short relievers in spades
And they look like they’re getting ready to say bye to Papelbon. Sure, if they can sign Madsen or Bell it makes less sense. But likely those two stay where they are.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 1, 2011 10:23 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Why would they trade away a useful bat at a position in league wide short supply for an expensive reliever at the market’s most flush position?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Because pitchers are more valuable than backup infielders
If you’re saying someone else would offer more for Lowrie, that may be true. But it’s undeniable the Sox would love to have a proven vet short man with AL experience like Street. I’d also be willing to talk Smith. Sox need a RF too.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 1, 2011 10:37 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I think I would be on board with this.
As much as I wouldn’t like to see Seth go.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Are any of Baltimores OF's of any value to us?
Obviously Adam Jones would be, but what about Markakis or Reimold? I highly doubt Adam Jones would even be obtainable but the other guys could be
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
if Nick Markakis
wasn’t like the most disappointing guy out there, then maybe…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
He's still pretty damn good.
He just hasn’t been the beast that everyone expected. I wonder what would happen with a change of scenery for him though.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions
I dunno man
he’s been like league avg and everything including defense has dropped. The change of scenery thing is interesting though – maybe he isn’t motivated on the Orioles…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
It would be tough to get motivated playing for those types of teams
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Could go
L R L with CarGo Tulo and Markakis. He wouldn’t feel the pressure of trying to produce so much as he did in Baltimore because of Tulo and CarGo
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions
he's actually pretty expensive, which I didn't know
12 mill next year, 15 mill the next two years, 17.5 mill in 2015
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Wow. Yeah, I didn't know that either.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
They did a Longoria-type deal with him.
Because he was expected to be Longoria at one point.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions
backfire
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions
We might be saying that about Cargo too.
Though I doubt it.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
WHOA
no way
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions
An OF of Markakis-Fowler-Gonzalez would be the best in baseball
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:02 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
They're a great trade target
Prospects for MLB ready pieces. They’’ll take position players, pitchers, whatever you’ve got.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
We have this Greg Reynolds
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:04 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
This:
He just hasn’t been the beast that everyone expected. I wonder what would happen with a change of scenery for him though.
Can also be said about Wright’s last 2 years as well.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:13 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
>.<
Markakis is really good…
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions
Markakis
was really good. I don’t know what’s up with him now but his walk rate, power, and defense have just declined and been really weak. Someone could probably convince me that he’s a change of scenery type but he gets paid an awful lot to take that gamble.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Peter Angelos made him shave his beard.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:54 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
noooooooooooooooooooooooo
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Rockies twitter says
#Rockies reinstate Blackmon, De La Rosa, Herrera, Nicasio & Spilborghs from 60-day DL. Rox have 37 on 40-man roster.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Should I be surprised that Nicasio is on that tweet?
Is that further evidence that he could be pitching next year?
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
You can't have guys on the 60 day DL in the off season, I think
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:03 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Everyone on the 60 day DL has to be restored onto the 40 man roster after the season is over.
It doesn’t mean anything.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
It means they still expect him to come back
Which, given his situation, is no small thing.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
Renck tweets
They believe he will be back next year RT @AcaGuy @TroyRenck Does reinstating Nicasio mean they are projecting his return
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He should.
Not OD, but mid-season
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Your opinion.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
yeah. :P
OD is a total pipe dream
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
and mid season is incredibly pessimistic considering his current state of activity :P
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
haha maybe.
I won’t argue this point because neither of us haven’t a clue when he’ll be back, really.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
^4
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
From the reports,
I think he’ll be back sooner rather than later. But what we can expect is anyone’s guess. Same with DLR, although that timetable has a little more of a historical sample to go by.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
I also
wouldn’t be surprised if JDLR was back fairly quickly but I don’t think I’d expect too much out of him for the first few months…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Is it possible Nicasio comes back in the pen at first?
This seems like the kind of injury where his endurance could be a bit off when he’s first ready to come back, is it possible they could start him back with some shorter stints out of the pen?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Maybe in rehab
I really doubt they want him in the pen in a Rockies uniform; they’ll take another couple weeks to work on that endurance in Tulsa or wherever.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
So May 12th?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions
As expected, that leaves room on the roster to protect Friedrich, Cabrera and one more player that will probably end up being Parker Frazier.
The Rockies may choose to make another round of cuts before the Reserves Deadline if they want to protect anyone else.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 1, 2011 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
There's also still technically the matter of Eliezer Alfonzo to deal with, but I';m still expecting a release before 11/20
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 1, 2011 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
I would not have minded signing Broxton, especially if Street is traded
Pen not top priority right now plus gave glut of RH relievers RT @will_e_777 @TroyRenck Have Rox shown any interest in Broxton?
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:11 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
Trade Street, pick up a cheaper arm that will give you Street's production.
Or even fill it through the system. Street is just too pricey
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions
he might be worth hanging on to
for the draft picks in the end (which would be worth more than his salary I think…). But it’s an awkward spot to be in…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I don't think Street's coming back as a closer..
The picks would be nice though.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
If there are cheaper arms that will give you Street’s production, why would anyone trade for him?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
well, building a bullpen takes some creativity.
I don’t think the replacement would be obvious, and I think Street has decent enough numbers for a team to want his services.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
Casey Weathers, why couldn't you have been any good
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:19 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh
Why must we keep doing this?? Its like poking a festering wound because we are bored.
/Casey Weathers was worth it, casey weathers was worth it.
Greg Reynolds will come around, greg reynolds will come around
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Nov 1, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Gotta love his stuff.
Not sure he’ll ever get a chance though. Not with that control. . which sucks.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions
Thank you for at least taking in consideration of Mike Fast's work on Framing.....
By the simpler methods of scoreing a catcher in the Beyond the Boxscore article do make Ianetta look good. Just as BA and RBI made Joe Carter look good as a hitter. Mike Fast is resarching an article to see if pitchers are living more on the edges of the strike zone at Coors that would make Iannetta look worse on framing than otherwise. It is one of several projects competeing for his time. I for one hope he finds the time to complete and publish.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
OMG. Can't breathe
laughing too hard. Victorino is just remarkable!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
idk... That Nowitzki one is greattttttttttttt
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions
No no. Victorino derping on the same play twice
makes me irrationally happy. Nowitzki is just being Nowitzki. He does goofy stuff on the sidelines all the time.
And Phyllis Rivers thinks last night was his Worst.Day.Ever feels me with glee. Although apparently he’s forgotten all his chokes in the playoffs……
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Logos made of food!
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Simpsons did it.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 11:32 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't know the site or the writer, But this is interesting
http://www.throughthefencebaseball.com/in-the-rockpile-chat-with-rockies-owner-dick-monfort/13030/#
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 11:44 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
Interesting article
though it makes me sad that someone has to “look up Nolan Arenado”
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
The article strikes me as the perspective of most regular fans. Slightly under-informed, but leaning in the right direction. But, Wilson Betemit? Seriously?
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
And bringing it back to the gifs,
I will never think of Wilson Betemit again without thinking about Joe Throwy.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 1, 2011 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Beggars can't be choosers
And really, Betemit’s not bad at all. Career 800 OPS with his best years recently. 30 yrs old. Hits well with RISP and on the road. Not a lot not to like, and a helluva lot better than what we’ve got.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 1, 2011 1:08 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
He's a career backup.
He’s only had over 400 PAs in one season: 2006. His defense at 3B is statistically and anecdotally bad. He’s basically Ty Wigginton at the same age without the same amount of playing time. Seriously, look at Wigginton’s stats.
And Chase Headley and Tim Stauffer
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Dick, I just want to say two words to you. Just two words.
Contact hitters.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
I'm dismayed about the refusal to hire a team manicurist.
Is it 2012 yet?
by DAWNMARIE01 on Nov 1, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we don't have a team manicurist
I’m pretty sure Pujols won’t sign here.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You both deserve a rec for that one lol
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Kim Ng
There was some discussion about her in yesterday’s Rockpile. ESPiN has an article up about her today here, which is pretty good except that Val Ackerman managed to make about half of it about her experiences working with the NBA.
Also, it’s probably unfortunate that the little blurb on the ESPiN MLB home page leading to the article contained this particular typo…
espnW
Kim Ng Making
Mark On Game
Considered for the Angels’ GM job, the longtime executive’s opportunity rests on her track record woking on baseball’s “sport side.”
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
Quote function fail
Everything after “espnW” should be in that same quote box….
Hard to navigate, etc.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions
I really need to make Chinese food this weekend
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 1:11 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey, I wrote something about Denver sports. It sometimes mentions the Rockies.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Nov 1, 2011 12:21 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey!
I want to go to an Avs game in the next couple months. Any suggestions?
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh.
And I think you LIVE near Sports Authority field, not love You may to the latter, but I don;t really want to read about it.
I love minutes from Sports Authority Field
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
And there's a comment riddled with typos
correcting a typo.
Nice.
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions
No, I think he meant what he wrote
Trust me, you want to give some warning if you’re about to pass under those bridges close to Invesco Mile High Sports Authority Field….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Dammit,
I need to fire his editor.
Uh….
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Sometimes, I do love minutes from Sports Authority Field…
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Sounds like a different talk show to me
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Are you bringing the family? Do you need a weekend game? Give me some details here
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
No family.
Me and a friend, I think. Weekend or Weekday. Maybe suggest one of each. I have a friend going through a pretty bad divorce and I want to take him out to get his mind off things.
Stubhub worked great for me
$94 tickets Friday night for $40.
Could have been in the $20s if I didn’t want the attack twice end.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
That's where I'll probably look,
but I want to know which upcoming games are going to be the best to watch. I’m trying to follow the hockey, but it isn’t working out.
Honestly, I’ll just sell you my club seats for $25 apiece. Let me email you the link so you can see what’s available.
Give me a month, and I’ll recommend a home game
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
November or December,
but it can’t be the week of Thanksgiving or after 12/20.
That leaves:
11/6 Flames
11/10 Islanders
11/12 Flames (who the hell scheduled that?)
11/18 Stars
11/28 Stars (seriously?)
11/30 Devils
12/2 Blues
12/4 Wings
12/13 Sharks
12/17 Caps
That Flames game on 11/12
is a Saturday night 8PM game. If you want to get your buddy out for an evening, the 8PM start time can be good for dinner (and/or beers) downtown and still have time to get to the game. And the games with the Flames can be pretty intense at times. OTOH, the date is getting pretty close.
Red Wings games are still an event, even if pretty much all the players from the old days are gone. And of course, the Caps game should be a lot of fun, if just to check out Ovechkin in person.
I’m actually looking at the 11/20 game against the Sharks, since I’m back in town that Monday and Tuesday for a class anyway. But that’s Turkey week, so not on your list of options… But the 12/13 Sharks game is probably a decent option too…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
Seriously good list of games, actually
Stars have no stars left on their roster, but somehow lead the West right now.
Flames are about to done get blowed up because they have been ignoring the impending rebuild for years.
Blues could be a great one, since there’s some bad blood between the two teams since The Trade™
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yeah.
I’m just scratching my head at two Flames games and two Stars games so close together— particularly the Flames games.
email sent
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Cool. I'm looking into 11/12 and 11/18.
If you guys ever want money for an empty seat, let me know. I’d probably go down by myself too. Now that baseball season is over, my wife is struggling to find ways to get me to go out.
Also,
what’s up with not being able to comment except through Facebook? Or am I missing something?
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 1, 2011 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
I don’t ever post over at the regional sites because of it
by ShadowPenguin on Nov 1, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
This is what
happens when two company tech teams get buddy-buddy.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Excelent article
You’ve said what I’ve been thinking. I got chastised for wearing an Avalanche T-Shirt to a Broncos Tailgate two years ago.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Very good article
Where were you sitting at the Broncos game? I was in the SW corner and didn’t really hear any of the Tebow chants or see any of the fights you mentioned. There was really more of that at the Cincinnati game I was at. I guess I’m not surprised it’s still happening, though.
Disappointing the game Sunday night didn’t get more of a crossover crowd. The crowd Friday night was pretty disappointing too, although it filled in better than I was initially fearing it would. Too bad the game was so damn frustrating…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
We were in section 522, just a few rows from the last in the stadium.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
And we were in 135, middle of the lower level
that might explain why we were seeing different things…
Also, “we”? I take it this means you were back in Denver this weekend?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
I'm here
until Nov. 15
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
I was at that Avs game, believe it or not (5 rows back of the goalie to boot)
That live hockey experience was much better than the last one. I might need to give it another shot.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Back to the original post....
Yes, trust your eyes. Cargo is a fantastic outfielder.
He gets great reads, he makes excellent routes to balls and his arm is first rate.
If the numbers show otherwise, that’s the numbers’ problem, not his. He’s an elite defensive OF’er.
not sure how much of my post you read
You seem to assume 1) what you see is more accurate than what other people (and those that contribute to uzr et al) and 2) that performance is consistent and perfectly representative of all plays you don’t witness. I wouldn’t be confident about either.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 1:07 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
This thing sort of reminds me
of how ESPN’s new QBR stat rated Tebow’s SD game performance above Aaron Rodgers in a week where Rodgers was excellent. Sometimes you don’t need to work through assumptions and self-critical analysis to know something isn’t right.
but if you did look into that
QBR is heavily context generated. The fact that Tebow was so effective in crunch time made a HUGE difference. I think that circumstance shows leverage is probably too heavily weighted, but that doesn’t mean it should be ignored outright, as if all existing statistics aren’t without flaws.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 1, 2011 6:18 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
“You seem to assume 1) what you see is more accurate than what other people (and those that contribute to uzr et al) "
But Andrew, we don’t know if the folks who contribute UZR have ever seen Gonzales play. We can assume they have, but there;‘s no evidence yea or nay. In fact, sabermetrics can be applied to, say, the Japanese or Taiwanese leagues from thousands of miles away, and lead to conclusions about players we have never laid eyes on. And, if you’re right, that shouldn’t matter, and those conclusions should be correct.
But, as a baseball fan, you know better than that. Stats and eyeballs are needed to draw real conclusions about any player. And I’ve spent enough time at Coors, watching Cargo take routes and get jumps, and them comparing it to the mental database of more than 40 years of watching other outfielders take routes and get jumps to make my conclusions. And they’re valid. They’re subjective and open to argument, but they are valid.
UZR is almost worthless with it's current mapping system..
Look at Randy Winn for an example. Between 1998-2004 he was rated with an average UZR of 1.81 then when he played for the Giants his UZR magically shot up to 10.32 in 2006-09. In 2009 his rating was 14.7, but somehow the next season he was so horrible it dropped to -7.3
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
-- odowd apologist --
In 2006-09 was when he played for the Giants..
his worst years was playing somewhere else.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
-- odowd apologist --
You can't argue this way when all of the stats disagree.
You won’t win an argument around here “trusting your eyes”. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, it’s just how it is.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 5:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, I recognize that PR is a largely pro-sabermetrics site, so I get it.....
…and I find many sabr stats useful. But I simply can’t embrace the notion that everything that happens on a baseball field can be explained with numbers, or that observation of a clearly observable fact (i.e. Cargo is a hell of an outfielder) is less dependable than numbers that may imply otherwise.
Until today, I can’t think of a single time on this site when an argument was seriously considered that Cargo is anything less than a stellar fielder. Now, with some numbers to work with, I’m suddenly an outlier for suggesting that he still is?
I never imagined a day when praising Cargo as a great OF’er would give me the position of contrarian, but I guess that’s what I am. :)
.
I don't think anybody on this site would argue that everything on a baseball field CAN be explained with numbers.
The GIST I got from this Rockpile is that pretty much every defensive metric rates CarGo as below average; considering that each is calculated differently, it’s worth discussing why he’s found to be below average across the board.
I agree with you that my eyes say that CarGo’s an excellent fielder. But my eyes don’t know all that much about baseball.
Why isn't it worth discussing....
whether those defensive metrics are valid? I recognize that the algorithms underlying these metrics present a shiny veneer of science, but these are relatively new inventions. Isn’t it possible they’re flawed?
Look, if someone comes up with a statistic that declares pepperoni pizza as an awful tasting food, I won’t reassess my position on pepperoni pizza. I’ll question the validity of the statistic.
In this scenario, Carlos Gonzales is pepperoni pizza. Delicious, delicious pepperoni pizza that gets great jumps on balls, covers the cavernous outfield of Coors with ease and has an accurate cannon of an arm.
If he’s a mediocre outfielder, then get me two more just as medicore and I’ll be a happy man.
It's very possible that defensive metrics are flawed. I'd even say it's likely that they are.
But the various defensive metrics are calculated in different ways and take different factors into account. So if they’re all flawed, they’d all be flawed in different ways, as opposed to sharing the same flaw.
Yet, despite all of this variance, pretty much all of these stats say the same thing: “Carlos Gonzalez is a below average MLB outfielder.” That doesn’t make it fact that CarGo IS a bad outfielder, but it does make it fact that each of these different formulas has evaluated CarGo, and each has independently concluded that he isn’t as good of a fielder that he looks to be.
So yes, it’s absolutely worth discussing the validity of these defensive metrics. But it’s also worth discussing why they ALL conclude that CarGo is below average; it suggests that there’s some common flaw to his defense that plain observation of the game may not necessarily notice.
I accept that there's something about his defensive game...
…that these metrics don’t like. I can live with whatever flaw that may be, though.
But, consider how the Dewan stat is calculated:
From http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110317&content_id=16989338&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
“Dewan employs “scouts” who pore over video of every game played in the course of a 162-game MLB season and track each batted ball.
They are tasked with analyzing how hard balls are hit, how close or far they are from the fielders deemed to be responsible for making the plays, and the result of those plays. The company comes up with a number, plus or minus, of how many runs per season a fielder “saves” or “costs” his team."
OK, so:
- Are these broadcast videos, which wouldn’t show OF positioning and jumps on balls?
- Who are these “scouts”? What experience, biases and preconceptions do they bring to their task?
- Who’s to judge how “hard” a ball is hit, what’s ‘close" or what’s “far”
Those are just a few questions that come to mind but one thing can’t be denied — these so-called “objective” stats are the result of a chain reaction of entirely subjective opinions by unnamed people of unknown experience.
Oh I agree, CarGo is a great outfield and the numbers are BS.
I’m just saying, you can’t win an argument like that here. People will tear it up.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think "people" will tear it up
just point out the flaws of both sides, as it is clear that defensive metrics are still coming around. I don’t know if I trust any one defensive metric (they all give different levels that Carlos falls into) but they all have something in common and I’m left to wonder why, to which I have no answer.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
In the end, does it really matter?
I can’t think of many outfielders I’d rather have patrolling Coors than Cargo, so I’m not especially concerned with the flaw in his game that is setting off metric alarms.
CarGo>Dex
IMO, defensively.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 8:35 PM MDT up reply actions
also agreed
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
That's an interesting discussion.
I think Dex is a wonderful outfielder playing in one of the toughest CF parks in baseball. If he falls behind Cargo it’s largely based on decision making (and arm strength, too, I suppose). Cargo is one of those rare OFers who plays even faster than he is because of his ability to read balls and almost always make an ideal route to the ball. Jim Edmonds was like that.
Dex doesn’t quite have that 6th sense (few do) so he has to make up for it with speed. I’d like to think he’ll develop it. The fact that he showed ability to step up his game offensively this season gives me hope that he’s a progressing ballplayer. If he progresses in the OF, he’ll be at Cargo’s level before long.
I think you just hit on it
Dex doesn’t always take the best route to the ball but he can make it up with speed. Carlos makes a lot of things look easy because he does get the good jump.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I had an uncle....
who grew up going to Yankee games and got to see Dimaggio play many, many times. I loved to hear him talk about how Joe D played with an almost psychic ability to get a jump on the ball at the moment of contact, and how he was never wrong. He made catches look so easy because it was almost as if he know where the ball was going before the pitch was made.
I’m not saying Cargo is in the same league as Dimaggio — that’s crazy talk. I’m speaking more the existence of an innate ability to read balls at a very high level. And that’s what Cargo does possess.
pretty sure you missed fisher's response above
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions
singular is person
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Maybe the Mariners would pay a little/ a lot of Ichiros salary
and ship him to us in hopes of getting him a championship
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 1, 2011 1:12 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Why would he come to Colorado in the hope of winning a championship?........
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions
dreams
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Nov 2, 2011 6:56 AM MDT up reply actions
This may have been brought up already.
What is this new Rawlins Platinum Glove award? It said the best defender in the NL and AL. Is Tulo have a chance at this? You would think but it will probably go to someone who isn’t as good.
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
If it's Holliday. It will be rigged.
Is there a better defender on that team that is better than Tulo?
Thank you Cookie for many years of service. Hope all goes well with you in your continued career.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
LOL.
Won’t be Holliday. That guy’s brutal in the field.
I don’t understand the thought that it’d probably go to a Cardinal either.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 6:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Platinum Gold Glove, actually.
The name is incredibly stupid.
I’m pretty sure it’s open to public voting, too; after the GG winners are announced, you can vote online/by phone for who should win the Platinum Gold Glove (that name!)
Arenado has two doubles and 3 RBI on the day so far
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
you have to stop
it’s like winning the lottery the day before the world ends. Stop getting me excited.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Hey, I just watch Gameday
It’s not my fault
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
dhsligrtfbhsthgbfts
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
also
Gardner crapped the bed. 4 walks, a wild pitch, a HBP…
The 1 hit and 3 k’s makes me somewhat optimistic that if he refines his control he’ll be awesome but it’s a big IF.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Nolan gonna Nol'
/I dunno
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 1, 2011 4:51 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
The Salt River Rafters have a 4 game lead in their division.
And the Championship Game is on national TV November 19th.
Gotta mark that one my calendar if Arenado keeps this up.
Hey! There's a baseball game on tonight!
Taiwan all-stars on MLB Network. Yes I am that pathetic
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
JFK's Quote of the Day:
“I used to tell Jackie (Robinson) sometimes when they were throwing at him, ‘Jackie, they aren’t throwing at you because you are black. They are throwing at you because they don’t like you.” Source: The McFarland Baseball Quotations Dictionary (David H. Nathan, 2000) ~Pee Wee Reese
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Gold Glove Awards Show in 1 hour on ESPN2 (The Deuce)
Everybody pumped up?
Are we sure we won’t need a separate thread for this one?
Ty Wigginton is the DH in the Taiwan All-Star game
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Foolish move by the team's manager.
If you DH Wiggy how are you supposed to take advantage of his versatility?
I just think it's funny that Wigginton
is on the squad along with Cano, Bonifacio, Granderson, Morrison, Michael Moore, Erick Aybar…etc
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I mean good for Wiggy
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Woo hoo. This is comforting in a way.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yes because they four more games against Taiwan
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I honestly can't believe that Mike Napoli got traded for Vernon Wells
partially so that Jeff Mathis could start instead.
Mike Scioscia, everybody.
You know I'm not going to say too much against Scioscia
I’d take him over Tracy
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
It doesn't feel right that on Nov 1
you and I are not watching the Nuggets :(
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Don't remind me. :(
The postseason is over, the Broncos are terrible, the Nuggets don’t have a season to play, and the Avs don’t play til tomorrow night.
At this rate I’ll actually do something productive this evening!
Well we can't have that now can we!?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
BOOM Grand Slamderson
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
bahahahah I was just saying....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
And this bizarre of a hivemind to boot!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Didn't that happen yesterday?. .
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm watching it tonight on MLB network. No idea when the game was played.
But SPOILERS!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
whoaaaaa.....hivemind???
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Sadly, he's made me hate the Yankees just a little less.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Completely agreed.
Honestly, while I root against the Yankees and dislike what their organization represents about baseball, there aren’t any players on their team that I actively dislike. Not even A-Rod or Jeter.
Not until the game is over I guess.....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
And an interesting game it is
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Almost over now
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Holy crap 123 pts?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I thought Wiggy was still gonna get thrown out. .lol
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Where are you watching this?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Well that sucks
don’t have it
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
It's a game from 24 hours ago, I think.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 1, 2011 8:36 PM MDT up reply actions
And that really doesn't matter to me because I'm just watching it now :P
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Watching the Taiwan all-star game....
…is the baseball junkie’s equivalent of football addicts watching the combine workouts.
More a cry for help than anything else.
And yes, it’s on my TV. :)
Hey this is an actual game be it exhibition or not.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
So if Tulo doesn't win the GG.........
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Whoa...I just heard Frazier on ESPN.....I don't understand..my brain...what?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Speaking of Tulo... From Renck:
Football game over. I will bet my mortgage that Tulo wins Gold Glove. Speaks to year he had and his superiority over other 2 candidates
LOL Renck has such faith in the system :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
So if he loses....
someone else pays his mortgage?
Smart betting Troy.
Ravich is short I think
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
One passed ball?? wow...
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
You should write a letter...
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Strongly worded at that.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Molina wins in NL for catcher...YAWN......
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
wait, what?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Oh...okay gotcha
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Buerhle and Kershaw ....good choices.
I want Kershaw on my team…
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
The day will come when I can hear Kershaw's name and not think....
“Greg Freaking Reynolds”
That day is not today.
I do feel bad for the guy
It’s not like he forced the Rox to take him 2nd.
Someday, when he’s 85 in a nursing home, some other geezer is gonna give him a hard time for not being Lincecum, Longoria or Kershaw.
That geezer? Me.
LOL. That's funny....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
You know, I didn't even think about that...lol
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He always looks that way
I mean did you see the blue jerseys?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
They've mentioned it twice while talking about the OF
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I KNOW! So annoying....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I love me some Torii Hunter.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Shane Victorino??? Really Kruk?
/thinks of hilarious gif of the month…..
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I'm just laughing at Kruk....I always look for that opportunity
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Failed again
Matt Kemp
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I know we've discussed this all day,
but I honestly can’t fathom a world where, defensively, Ryan Braun>Carlos Gonzalez
Yes he does
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
NL West Cleaning house in the OF
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Not gonna lie, feelin' a bit of divisional pride right now.
Even though I hate those guys, they’re still NL Westies.
Me too
and we know at least one more to come (if not riots)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
West Coast bias!!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 1, 2011 10:15 PM MDT up reply actions
With all that gold..
the Dodgers can afford to pay off their debts!!
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
-- odowd apologist --
Parra and Kemp make sense.
Ethier? I dunno…..
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
But unsurprising...
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Wow. Paul Blair made NO erros in 17 years?? Holy crap...
That’s unbelievable…
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He should have his hand dipped in gold....sheesh
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Blair was UNBELIEVABLE
One of my favorite outfielders ever.
And the weird thing — he had an anemic career BA, but he was unstoppable in the clutch. He’d take his .235 BA to the plate in the 9th inning and, without fail, stick a dagger in the other team’s heart.
Baltimore, mostly
and the Yankees at the end of his career
That would explain why
he was happier announcing Markakis as the GG winner
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Wasn't he on the Yankees championship teams in '77 and '78?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yep. He was one of the quiet guys who didn't get much attention
But he did a lot of good things for those teams
That's where I remember his name from.
I liked the Bronx Zoo Yankees…
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yeah, that was my team.
I grew up in NY and was a teenager when that was going on. Whenever I hear about how all the players on a team are supposed to like each other in order to win, I think about them. Those guys punched each other out in the dugout and then would reel off a win. What a nutty collection of characters — and winners.
I had a special place in my heart for Thurman Munson....
and Bucky Dent..
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I was driving home from my after school job when I heard that Munson had died.
I had to pull over to the side of the road so I could shed tears. For me, he embodied baseball.
Awww......:(
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Over the years, I've become far less likely to develop emotional attachments....
…to players than other fans. But, whenever I start to become intolerant of that sort of thing in other fans, I try to remember how I felt about Munson.
We all should have that one player that we remember forever.
Orioles, Yankees and Reds I think
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He was on the '69 Orioles team that also had....
Belanger and Brooks Robinson in the infield and FOUR 20 game winners in the rotation.
Probably the greatest combination of defense and pitching in baseball history.
And they lost to the Mets in the WS.
I like when there are 1st-time winners.
Even though GG voting is still plenty suspect, it shows the coaches aren’t just automatically voting for the incumbent.
Markakis....that's for you CCR :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
How did ESPN get the rights to do this show
I’m not terribly impressed, although the player’s they’ve brought in so far have been pretty cool to listen to.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
If only it was on MLB Network...:(
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I don't think there's any good way to make it terribly exciting.
And they probably aren’t going to be very critical of any selections.
I does roll off the tongue.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
*It....It rolls off the tongue....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Cabrera was awful defensively in 2011
I know, it’s the Gold Gloves, what does defense really matter?
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Eric Aybar, really?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Erick Aybar? Wow.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Heh. I got used to hearing it being in SD and all...
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Have you heard Tony Gwynn's?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Tony sounds like a surfer dude half the time
it’s hilarious
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
It if was Kruk....I wouldn't worry...
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
They say Reyes and Rollins
and they show a video of Tulowitzki
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Tulo Gold Glove!!!!!
Sweet!!!
☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 9:29 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Well deserved. And the best part about the kid?
He’ll say he’d trade it in a heartbeat for a pennant, and he’ll mean it.
DUDE!!! SPOILERS!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
It's Tulo
I didn’t want to wait
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 9:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought he was just doing a pre-emptive YAY TULO lol
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I didn't even see a link lol
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
For something like this he definitely wouldn't fake it though
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
You never know.....
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Yay Tulo!!!!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I don't have to riot now
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
We can have a quiet riot.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I said I didn't have to
doesn’t mean we can’t
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Hey now, that's holly's job.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I'm not too fond of the Yankees
But if I was, I’d be pretty furious about Gardner not winning a gold glove.
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 9:44 PM MDT reply actions
But I don't like the Yankees so it's Okay
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Do you have the links handy?
And do you have to be on Facebook? Or can you still vote without a profile?
As far as I can tell, you have to have a Facebook profile and 'Like' the Rawlings page before you can vote.
Link is here: http://www.facebook.com/rawlings?sk=app_185208208228906
I voted Beltre
I’m just glad Gardner’s not there so I don’t have to look like a fraud.
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 10:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Tidbit on Tulo from the Rockies twitter feed:
#Rockies Tulo is youngest NL SS to win 2 Gold Gloves since HOF’er Ozzie Smith won his 2nd Gold Glove at age 26 in 1981.
If he stays healthy
He could win a whole bunch in row now. He has the game and the name.
I was pretty disgusted after the Rockies season, but the rapid demise of the I-95 teams have helped with that.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 1, 2011 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry, Tulo... backflips are cooler than lollipop throws.
But I’m still glad you’re playing for the Rockies.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
Mark Cuban interested in Dodger....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Color me skeptical that Cargo is anything but an extremely talented defender
but we should definitely look to the coaching staff to improve our outfield positioning, I am doubting Cargo would be an above average CF in Oakland and immediately become a below average LF in Col
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
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