Wednesday Rockpile: Examining the New MLB Collective Bargaining Agreement
Yesterday was a great day for baseball labor negotiations, as MLB and the player's union agreed to a 5 year labor deal, guaranteeing 21 years of labor peace. Here's a detailed summary of the agreement from the Biz of Baseball and a less technical one from MLB SBNation. For those of you with ESPN insider, Keith Law gives his analysis on the deal point by point.
Unfortunately, the new collective bargaining agreement (CBA) might have simultaneously dealt a grievous blow to the ability of low payroll teams to compete with their big market brethren by severely limiting the flexibility with which teams like Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh can construct a successful team. I will warn you, folks -- this is the longest Rockpile I've ever written (maybe even longer than my PR Academy articles), and that's saying something.
It's Good
Before I get all doom and gloom on you (oh, and I will), there was quite a bit for me to celebrate in the new CBA:
- The leagues will now each have 15 teams now that the Houston Astros are moving from the NL Central to the AL West, meaning that every division will have five members. The fact that it took this long to even out the membership of the leagues is mystifying to me, but I'm glad that it happened, as there will be (theoretically) a more even chance of winning a division for every team.
- On a related note, adding another wild card team, probably as soon as 2012, is good news if you're a baseball fan who loves a good pennant race -- especially if your team has never won a division title (/Colorado). Dave Cameron at Fangraphs suggests that this might turn the July trade deadline into a seller's market -- with as many as 2/3 of MLB teams still in the hunt at that time, fewer teams will be selling and more will be buying, or at least standing pat. More pennant race fever equals more packed houses in more cities, and that's good for everyone. For a team like Colorado who might be in a reloading mode, the playoffs became a much more attainable proposition in 2012.
- Replay review will be extended to include fair/foul and "trapped" balls. Again, this sort of thing has worked out beautifully in tennis (a sport perhaps even more reliant on tradition, etc. than baseball), and it will be great here. I'd have liked to see replay also cover safe/out calls, but this is very much a step in the right direction.
- The Elias free agent compensation rankings are gone, which is music to my sabermetric ears. Instead of relying on a bizarre formula that way off the track in terms of valuing production, compensation picks will be rewarded based solely on the market demand of the free agent in question -- which is how it should have been all along. Now, teams won't get a compensation pick for losing free agents unless they make a qualifying offer the player that is better than the average salary of the top 125 highest paid players (for 2012, the number is $12.4 million in any year of the offer).
- Mandating the wearing of safer helmets by every batter by 2013 -- this will hopefully improve player safety, and the helmets in question are lighter than the current helmets too.
- There will be (limited) trading of draft picks allowed (I think). Another thing that didn't make sense is being rectified here -- if teams want to use their draft assets on acquiring established talent instead of lottery tickets, they should be able to.
- Raising the minimum salary to $480k -- this will compensate pre-arbitration eligible MLB players a little better than the current system -- 16% better than 2011, in fact.
- The Rule 4 Draft signing deadline is moved from August to July. Just about the only positive thing about the draft in the CBA is that the negotiating window will be tighter -- with the goal of getting more top picks some professional experience in the season they were drafted. I also don't mind too terribly that Rule 4 draftees can't sign major league contracts anymore (placing them on the 40 man roster immediately) -- while leverage is somewhat decreased for the draftee, the team can't cripple its roster flexibility by giving out spots to players that are a few years away.
- Outlawing smokeless tobacco on the field and in interviews, etc.
- MLB will begin testing for HGH, with positive tests getting the same punishment as positive steroids tests.
- Super Two Eligibility (basically, an extra year of arbitration for the player) will be expanded from the top 17% of players between 2 and 3 years of ML service time to the top 22%
It's the same as steroids. There's not a single test worldwide (proving) that it improves athletic performance, not one. I don't know if it does, and neither does anyone else.
Steroids are certainly a divisive subject among MLB fans. I'm only against steroid use insofar as it is illegal in baseball, not that it is "cheating". In my opinion, what players put in their bodies is their business -- in using steroids, they are weighing the inherent health risks of using with the purported rewards. I'm against steroid/HGH use by MLB players, as MLB prohibits the use of those substances, but I'm not opposed to the idea of using steroids to improve performance on an ethical level. But I digress.
As for the Super Two issue, it's great for the young players that will get a salary bump sooner, but this policy still only encourages teams to hold their top prospects out of the majors for a little longer, perhaps at the cost of their squad's postseason hopes.
It's Ugly
Up to this point, we've seen a number of things that can and should be construed as positive elements of the CBA. Unfortunately, it's at this point where MLB and the PA decided to screw over amateur players (domestic and international), small market teams, and fans of creative management. Here are the main issues:
- Minor league free agents not added to the Opening Day roster or released 5 days later will cost an extra $100,000 and can opt out on June 1. This means that teams who want to stockpile a bunch of AAAA depth just in case will have to pay quite a premium to do so -- and as a result, 40 man roster spots will become even more precious than they are now. It's not necessarily a bad rule, but it's a rule that limits roster flexibility somewhat.
- The establishment of a signing bonus pool (and cap) for the Rule 4 draft. Monetary will be established for all the picks in the first 10 rounds, then a limit will be placed on a team's draft spending that is equal to the sum of the suggested value of those picks. The pool for 2012 seems to be between $4.5 million and $11.5 million depending on draft slot. If a pick after the 10th round is given more than $100k, that amount will also be counted against the pool (yes, that's 14th rounder Dexter Fowler for you). Penalties for going over the limit are draconian:
Excess of Pool Penalty (Tax on Overage/Draft Picks)
• 0-5 percent; 75 percent tax on overage
• 5-10 percent; 75 percent tax on overage and loss of 1st round pick
• 10-15 percent; 100 percent tax on overage and loss of 1st and 2nd round picks
• 15-plus percent; 100 percent tax on overage and loss of 1st round picks in next two drafts
- It might not be a violation of the legal rights of these amateur players, but it sure feels like a violation on an ethical level. Their potential earnings based on their skills have been artificially capped and they had no voice in these negotiations. There's already a huge difference in the salaries of young prospects and even major leaguers with very little service time when compared to free agent eligible players -- and this will make the gap even wider. MLB and the PA went after the group that had no leverage in the negotiation process, and they went hard.
- In an era where baseball has been losing many top athletes to other sports, MLB has decided to encourage the many high caliber multi-sport athletes to choose another sport to focus on for their professional aspirations. I agree with Rob Neyer that there might not be that many athletes affected by this, but losing just one Joe Mauer or Matt Holliday to football would be a darn shame for baseball fans. Limiting the talent pool of the sport, especially in an environment where talent is at a premium, is just asinine.
- In a similar vein, many top high school players will instead choose to attend college -- and while that is an admirable thing for the most part, college isn't an ideal developmental channel for MLB (just imagine how many promising young arms will get blown out by college coaches). Instead of filling Rookie levels with 18-20 year olds, clubs will field squads full of 22-23 year olds who are comparatively further behind on the developmental curve.
- The draft was just about the biggest bargain left to smaller market teams (we'll get to another in a minute), wherein teams could sign premium talent at artificially below market prices...and could, if they wanted, spend a lot more than other teams instead of pouring all of their money into the ML squad. There's a proposed Competitive Balance Lottery that will award compensation picks to low revenue teams...but with the new bonus pool system, the effectiveness of these picks will be diminished somewhat. Spending heavily on the draft is now a bad, bad thing -- sorry Pirates, here's another 20 losing years for you.
- A signing bonus pool has also been established for international players...for 2012, this was set at $2.9 million, though in the future, worse teams will get to spend more internationally than better players. Similar (draconian) penalties to the Rule 4 draft will be in effect for teams spending above these bonus pools.
As for the Rockies...well, they aren’t necessarily a small market team, but they’ve tended to build their teams through the draft and through international scouting. That makes me worry very much about the effect the new CBA will have on this team. Will management be able to adapt to a new way of building a roster? I certainly hope so.
Articles that I referenced but didn't directly link to
- Dave Cameron of Fangraphs wonders if a Steinbrenner wrote the CBA, since the Yankees were the primary beneficiaries of these policies. As Cameron says:
These rules are fantastic for big market teams who can maximize the advantage of their revenue streams by spending on Major League talent. These rules are absolutely terrible for teams who cannot afford to build teams by paying the market rate for those same players.
Congratulations, Major League Baseball, you just screwed every team that doesn’t have the capability of running out a $100+ million payroll, and you just made winning a lot more about Major League payroll size than anything else. In the name of cost reduction, you just made it even less likely that teams like Tampa Bay or Oakland will be able to build long term winners. This agreement will set competitive balance back significantly, and now the best hope is that the damage is so obvious that these changes get repealed as quickly as possible.
- Jonah Keri of Grantland very articulately lays out how the new rules will harm not only small market teams, but also the sport of baseball going forward.
- Here is a fantastic take on how the CBA affects the Rule 4 draft by SB Nation MLB Draft blog Bonus Baby. In particular, the opening paragraph on the essence of the draft is phenomenal.
- Mentioned but not elaborated upon: Rob Neyer's excellent reaction to the hue and cry put up by many internet baseball writers on the new CBA.
- The proprietor of the It's About the Money Stupid blog thinks that the CBA is pretty terrible...and this guy is a Yankees fan. If anybody's job got even easier, it's the Yankees.
- ESPN's Jayson Stark and Jerry Crasnick offer their takes on the deal
- Troy Renck applauds the efforts of the two sides to maintain labor peace.
- Here's a .pdf version of the CBA summary
Oh, and Ryan Braun won the NL MVP over the slightly more deserving Matt Kemp. Troy Tulowitzki came in 8th while Ryan Howard still managed to come in 10th.
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So they look great because they maintained labor peace
unlike 2 of the other major sports, but yet may have made some critical errors in the deal?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
Great Piece.
Lot of meat in it. And, don’t be “mystified”. The DBacks should’ve been the Team to move to the American League. But, since the Astros were going through an Ownership change, they were holding them hostage for Six Months. All while keeping it hush-hush, or just flat out lying about it to the Public (Alyson Footer). Within 5-6 Years, Crane and his 49 other Investors will default on their Loans, and the Team will probably be sold, and moved again, probably to Vegas.
Do like the Lottery System, but it is complicated. And, I doubt Monfort will have the Rox in that Lotto. He’ll spend just enough to keep that from happening, or the (Lotto) Ball will bounce the wrong way. The June Amateur Draftees get screwed, but at least they’ll sign now, and there won’t be anymore Luke Hochevar’s and Aaron Crow’s wondering around in the Independent Leagues. MLB Network needs a Three-Part Special on this, just to clarify everything. And, to get that Fake Cowboy (Kevin Millar) off my screen for a couple more hours.
Don't worry Houston will be fine they just need a leadership change
that combination of market and relocation will make them a more relevant team, and lord knows if there is one place where there are deep pockets willing to pay into sports it is Texas.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I am just saying that Houston is one of the biggest markets in the United States
look how quick Philly flexed their spending muscle once they had a little success.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Houston got hosed plain and simple !
MLB Has Never understood the Houston market; but did a better job than the NFL ever has. Houston has everything over Dallas from an economic stand point. Yet Houston has always had a glamour gap to Dallas. In Texas that’s a big deal. This is going to have the reverse effect expected. This is going to be the Cowboys sucking the oxygyn out of the Oilers and Texans all over again. To do this now while the Astros are at low ebb is the effective death nell of this franchise.
Bud; this is criminal negligence on your part. This moved combined with the new CBA is going to poison the well of a 12 million person market against you just as LA is a black hole for the NFL. The fiduciary malfeasence of this move boggles my mind more than even ENRON did. The only recorse for Crain is to totally black out the Dallas market and even to extend that to MLB network. That is the only way his franchise will survive.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Sure.
This is much worse than Enron.
Seriously, this is meaningless move for 95% of the residents in Houston. They still have a major league club. They’ll be getting a real rivalry. All of this bluster is completely baseless.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:27 AM MST up reply actions
Your attempt to paint that statement as hyperbole
just gave ten million people cancer
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Better than HGH, amirite?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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HGH is worse than AIDs
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Additionally, even if there is some complaining about this,
it vastly improves the MLB. I would happily have seen the Rockies go to the AL if it meant amore balanced leagues with more balanced schedules. The Astros just made the most sense, and were in the position to make it happen.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
you could argue that the DBacks made plenty of sense but that would
have meant two teams switching divisions
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
The Houston/Dallas in the same division helps with game times, travel, etc. You just don’t get that from Arizona.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
And with giving Texas some away divisional games that don't take place in the middle of the night.
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by Greg Stanwood on Nov 23, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
Sure.
A radical realignment with Texas, Houston, Colorado, Kansas City, Arizona would make the most sense for these issues, but that would have made everyone mad.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
This would be the best
California Division:
LAA
LAD
SF
OAK
SEA
West:
CO
TEX
HOU
ARI
SEA
Central:
STL
KC
MIN
CIN
PIT
Great Lakes Division:
DET
CLE
CHC
CHW
MIL
East:
ATL
TAM
FLA
WAS
BAL
ESPN:
NYY
NYM
PHI
BOS
TOR
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Poor Padres
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
hmmm for some reason SEA is listed twice
and I still have 30 teams… I’m not sure who I forgot, but they probably aren’t to important anyways.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Padres
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Ya told you they weren't important
swap them in to the Cali league and take out Seattle.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
nah
I like two Seattle’s more
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
but
Seattle (the city) does not like having to relocate to California.
Not enough rain.
by MileHighHawkeye on Nov 23, 2011 1:16 PM MST up reply actions
Hey, the PRMLB Poh-Bah of the Padres would like a word...
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
Poo-Bah of the San Diego Padres in the Purple Row OOTP League.
@Paul_Franz
My blerg
I would have assumed moving AZ to the AL West would Move HOU to NL West
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
This is even worse,
because now both Texas AND Houston are two time zones out of since with the rest of their division. That’s the point.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions
Maybe it is time for an NL South
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
True Astros Fans...
Would much rather be in the NL than the AL, even if it meant going to the NL West. How this was handled (or coverered-up) by the Astros and MLB is a disgrace, imo. Hence, why the Rox are now my New Team.
I personally hate the Designated Hitter, and when you are LIED TO by the Astros’ Senior Social Media Director about the move to the American League being all “hearsay”, that says something. Houston will now ALWAYS be second-fiddle to The Metroplex. The Astros will become an afterthought and joke once they move to the AL.
How true of an Astros fan can you be if you abandon your team? That seems odd to me.
The Astros are only an afterthought and a joke because they are losing. If they start to win again, almost everyone will be back. And, if they argument is that they cannot compete, then I would need some real data on that. There is no reason why they cannot recover in what is regularly a pretty weak division with usually one good team and three bad ones.
As I said, 95% of Houston residents don’t care. There is certainly an angry group of people. There always will be. People don’t like change. But, again, the imminent demise of the Astros is an exaggeration at best.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:39 PM MST up reply actions
Don't you understand, Petro?
Only true Astros fans don’t support their team anymore. It’s pretty basic, if you ask me.
Goodbye 2011, hello uncertainty about 2012...
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 2:54 PM MST up reply actions
I'm just mad that all of my fans seem to be leaving.
They’re MY team NOW.
(PRMLB Astros GM)
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 3:29 PM MST up reply actions
Well they're only leaving
Because of the lies and the greed and the DH… don’t take it personally :-)
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 3:37 PM MST up reply actions
I know this is sarcastic, but if you don't know it already, look into the story of AFC Wimbledon
And you’ll realise how close to the truth you may be.
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Petro; I think you are very wrong on this. You don't understand Texas politics and how this is going to play out.
Think UT vs AM rivary. In texas when the deck gets stacked against you every one bails. UT stacked the deck so heavily in their favor that all the other big schools from the big 12 bailed out. This move is so stacked in Dallas’ favor that that the Astros will always get the short end of the stick. The Oilers moved out of the Houston market because Bud Adams could not compete with the Cowboys in his own market. The Cowboys still draw more money economicaly than the Texans in there own market.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Actually, I think that you might want to consider your own knowledge.
This isn’t the 70s/80s. The Rangers aren’t the Cowboys. The Astros aren’t a team that replaced another team after the previous team left them high and dry. UT and A&M are public institutions with vastly different reputations and supports systems. Neither of these analogies apply here.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
I think the economic models do still apply.
All the years Houston toiled as an NL west team hurt them economicaly in the sixties and seventies. Houston’s natural rivals were the Cardinals. It wasn’t till the Astros got to play the Cardinals in an unbalanced division schedule that Houston became really competitive. The passing ownership ran out of wind four years ago and should have been replaced then.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
The Astros became good because the Cardinals became good?
Does not compute.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Astros became good because the got to play their natural rivals and drew out the fan base.
Baseball fans are more casual than football fans in texas; yet texas produces a greater percentage of baseball players than most states and only CA and FL rivals them in that resepct. All the late night games on the coast kept Houston fans home. They’d rather watch high school football for cheaper and earlier. When Houston started playing teams in their own time zone on a more regular basis the fans came out and the franchise started to prosper. It also helped to get out of the failed vision of the Astrodome.
This is going to drive the fans away again. They are not going to sit for being second fiddle to Dallas for long and they are not going to get excited about cali or Seattle.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
the alternative history:
Astros became good because they had players like Biggio, Bagwell, Berkman, etc.
Good players = good team = happy fanbase.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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The other alternate history is they could afford to keep the killer B's as a group .
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
...because those players were HOF caliber
not because they were playing in the same division as the Cardinals.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Before that group of players would have been traded away.
The Astros could only afford one high priced star. They could not afford a balanced lineup and quality pitching at the same time. They could not draw enough to keep that much talent in place.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Mike Scott, Bob Knepper, and Nolan Ryan
would like a word.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 12:43 PM MST up reply actions
You mean the Nolan Ryan who went 8-16 while
leading the league in ERA and Ks thanks to an inept offense?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
pitcher wins are great
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
yeah he must have been a bit mad finishing 5th
in the CY after striking out 270 batters in 211 innings as a 40YO
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
poor guy.
Insert wiener joke here.
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Probably his finest full season really
oddly it was his only full season that he didn’t throw a single CG. Steve Bedrosian won the CY for pitching to a 2.83 ER in 60 innings
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
how the hell did he not win a CY?
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WHIP, BB/9
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
umm
Bedrosian had a 1.202 WHIP and a 2.84 K/BB Ryan had a 1.139 WHIP and a 3.10 K/BB
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
i figured she meant for his career
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
and not playing on successful teams
the guy had 300+Ks in 5 out of his six seasons between 25-30
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I was referring to spending $3 million dollars
on three pitchers in 1986.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:40 PM MST up reply actions
Developing Lofton
Bobby Abreu and Carl Everett as well if they could have held that team together…
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Again. If this is the case, then this move is huge for Houston.
Texas is a much better natural rival than St. Louis. St. Louis has two other rivals that are far more important than Houston. I’d venture to say that Houston has absolutely no rivalry with St. Louis, nor ever has. I’d challenge to find a reliable source that refers to their relationship with St. Louis as a rivalry.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 12:37 PM MST up reply actions
"I’d venture to say that Houston has absolutely no rivalry with St. Louis, nor ever has."
Albert Pujols and his homer disagrees
Carlos Gonzalez has an extraordinary tendency to amplify light through stimulated emission of radiation in frequent bursts.
Shoulder-to-Shoulder for life!
by Hollidayrain on Nov 23, 2011 1:35 PM MST up reply actions
Ask the Mets if they want to be in the same didvision as the Yankees?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Ask theMetsRays, Jays, or Orioles if they want to be in the same didvision as the Yankees?
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
Anyway,
I appreciate fan frustration because of the move, but the imminent demise of the Astros just doesn’t hold water for me. I’d need to see some proof. Even looking at attendance numbers, there were only two things that seemed to affect Astros attendance—success and the new ballpark. This says to me that if they are successful, they will draw a crowd.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 12:52 PM MST up reply actions
Then how did the Rangers get so good?
What explains the nine years from 79–87 where they finished 1st, 2nd, or 3rd for eight out of nine years with three playoff appearances?
How does this have anything to do with UT/A&M and Cowboys/Oilers?
If natural rivalry is so important, isn’t the rivalry with the Rangers great? The Cardinals have no rivalry with the Astros. They never have. The only minor rivalry that the Astros are ever able to create was a small one with the Mets. The Cardinals have two natural/historical rivals in KC and the Cubs.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 12:35 PM MST up reply actions
KC and the Cubs
would be a great name for a lounge act.
Insert wiener joke here.
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by hotdoglady on Nov 23, 2011 12:38 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Houston was a Cardinals farm club and the Cardinals had a historic heavy presence in the local radio markets all over texas.
My granparents were Cardinal fans as far west as Abilene because of that presence. San Antonio and Houston were the historic amature baseball hubs of texas and Branch Rickey made them Cardinal territory. The difference between Dallas/Houston rivalry and say a Boston/ New York is the sheer poison between them. New York and Boston are purely small patatoes by comparison. I was born in New York. I served in Newport and Boston. I know those markets and I know those fan bases. I was raised for a large part of my child hood in Houston and Texas.
Just as some here in Denver will say Denver has always wanted to be Chicago; in baseball terms Houston has always wanted to be St. Louis. Do you remember all the Cub fans here in Denver before the Rockies because of WGN? The Cards dominated Texas that way untill the advent of the Rangers shut them out of the market in North Texas. In many respects early Rangers owners repeated the same moves of early Astros owners. I don’t know how leveraged the current Rangers group is. I expect they have to maintain this level of competitiveness for awhile to stay profitable
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
This is also a weak explanation.
Most of the West and the South followed the Cardinals because they were the team that was furthest West and South had a giant radio that sent the games west and south. Does this mean that every city west of the Mississippi should be in the division with the Cardinals?
The Denver Bears were an affiliate for the Brewers, among other teams, does that mean that they should be in a division with them?
Seriously, there are no strong modern day connections with the Cardinals. None. They didn’t play in the same division until 1994. Even if some Houston fans think of the Cardinals because of old ties to them, few Cardinals fans are crying over the loss of 18 years of history with Houston. If anything, they’re rejoicing over having an even chance to make the playoffs for the first time in two decades.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
And the Buffs only thought they had a rivalry with Nebraska when Nebraska only thought about Oklahoma.
Tell that to the Buffs fans of the time. The Cards have had a better than even chance of making the playoffs second only to the Yankees!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Ok. Enough with the silly arguments. Here are the facts:
Astros 1991 per game Attendance (NL West): 14,767
Astros 1992 per game Attendance (NL West): 14,956
Astros 1993 per game Attendance (NL West): 25,736
Astros 1994 per game Attendance (NL Central): 26,460
Astros 1995 per game Attendance (NL Central): 18,942
Astros 1996 per game Attendance (NL Central): 24,394
Astros 1997 per game Attendance (NL Central): 25,269
Astros 1998 per game Attendance (NL Central): 30,351
What happened in 1997? Their first playoff birth.
You can argue that the strike caused the decline in attendance, but there was no bump from entering the NL Central and playing the Cardinals. None.
There was a bump in 1993. Why? First winning record in five years following an 81-81 record and the rise of the Killer Bs.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:55 PM MST up reply actions
And never before were the Astros ever able to afford a competitive group so long.
They had one or two year spurts before. Like the Marlins; the fire sale on a smaller scale always followed before. 1997 was local economics.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Whether that is true or not,
it has nothing to do with playing the Cardinals. This is the point. The attendance figures did not change.
Your argument is:
1) They started playing the in the NL Central against the Cardinals.
2) They made more money.
3) They were able to play well.
There was no attendance increase from playing in the NL Central. None. Thus, no increase in money to support your argument. The attendance improved because they got better. Then they closed the old stadium and built a new stadium, which also boosted attendance revenue. This has nothing to do with the Cardinals.
Unless you have other actually data, you aren’t going to convince me of this at all. So far, you have presented no data except anecdotal stories.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 3:15 PM MST up reply actions
Are the Texans really to baseball what the Cowboys are to football?
I’ll admit that my knowledge of Texas, it’s sports/politics/etc., is quite limited. But given the very different space that football occupies in ths sports culture of Texas vis-a-vis baseball, can we really draw much from Oilers/Cowboys story in this case?
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
You can't even draw an analogy comparing
Dallas and Houston of the 1980s with Dallas and Houston of 2012. They are vastly different places.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
If you would like me to explain how many ways this is remarkably inaccurate please let me know.
The fiduciary malfeasence of this move boggles my mind more than even ENRON did.
FYI I am an SEC auditor so it is an area of expertise…. Otherwise I will drop it.
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
On crap.
I knew they were watching.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 12:45 PM MST up reply actions
Always

"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
ENRON cooked the books to show a profit by trying to dominate the natural gas pipeline market or so they tried to make it appear.
MLB is cooking the books to make their short term goals look profitable in a down economy. I see contraction coming.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Contraction will not happen.
Insert wiener joke here.
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Want to bet a Fat Tire for the year 2030?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Yes.
Insert wiener joke here.
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Wait...... WHAT??????
First with regards to Enron.. um please stop. I can send you links to SEC and specific charges if you like; but essentially after several years of international and domestic expansion involving complicated deals and contracts, Enron was billions of dollars into debt. All of this debt was concealed from shareholders through partnerships with other companies, fraudulent accounting, and illegal loans.
As for contraction and what they are doing to Houston? I’ll let Maria deal with that.
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
Does the LA Dodgers fiasco look any better?
I think it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
nobody is going to lose their retirement because of Frank McCourt
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Maybe...
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Wrong....
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
Maybe...
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
definitely.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
who is going to lose
their retirement?
Insert wiener joke here.
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not matt kemp
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
I know some retirees from U.S. Steel who thought the same way and thet wer execs!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
you know ex-US Steel execs who signed $160 million contracts at age 27?
i’m pretty sure matt kemp is financially secured for the rest of his life
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
Maybe...
There is always the risk of what a bancruptcy judge will decide to do. Many people from the generation in front of mine had there retirement garuntees negated by a bancruptcy judge.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Maybe Kemp will get the Parking Lots at
Dodger Stadium for the next 8 years
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Not to get political...
Were are sitting on a financial house of cards. The side I’m on here is the green side of green backs. Go back and see in history how the depression hurt baseball for twenty years financially.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
that has absolutely nothing to do
with what happened to the Dodgers. Nothing.
Insert wiener joke here.
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You do realise that this is the one hundred billionth time
since the days of pharoah that prediction has been made, and that once ever 10-20 years the person is right? The studies of the people who predicted this last collapse shows that they are wrong in their predictions about everything else at the exact same rate as the people who didn’t
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
OZ is all seeing, knowing and powerful.
DON"T LOOK AT THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
if you are implying that we are currently sitting on
50 trillion dollars worth of public debt(federal, state, and local) with a currency that is 100% confidence(either meaning of this term applies here) based, and that we continue to ignore the underlying causes of these problems you are right.
I just don’t think it is all that different than it was 50 years ago as far as being likely to come apart.
The Dodgers are in the process of being looted, but will remain a valuable asset that someone else will purchase.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
hardly a similar situation
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
All industries have there poorly run companies
MLB is no different. They will find new owners and move on but really things will pretty much stay the same.
Enron changed the way everything was done from a public company perspective. SOX, PCAOB, etc…..
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
McCourt isn't running the Dodgers poorly
he is milking every dime out of them that he can, I am really glad he is doing it to so that the other MLB owners start thinking harder about who they let into that club
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
not the same.
at all.
Insert wiener joke here.
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Contraction will NEVER happen. It’s a lie that it has ever even been thought about. The union would never let it happen.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:41 PM MST up reply actions
Why the lie?
To get taxpayers to fund new stadia.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:43 PM MST up reply actions
this explains why you are on a message board
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Wasting the hard earned dollars of all those public companies?
Is what I am assuming you are getting at.
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
Look I am not saying the next boom/bust cycle is 100% on dsmba
but I am leaning towards at least 80%
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
You didn't hear this from me but
Blue Horseshoe Loves Anacot Steel
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
Whose watching the watchers; congress?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Frank McCourt
Insert wiener joke here.
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PCAOB is watching the Auditors
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
What's that but Linkedin's second offering? Loud and Clear buddy
I won’t tell a soul
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
that should read Buy Linkedin's second offering
but hey you are an SEC auditor so you probably didn’t catch that
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Jump all in buddy, jump all in
We have a knack for understanding what people mean not what they say. Litigation is fun.
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
I am just taking the piss I hope you know that
I probably have more sympathy for people in your position than most anyone I know
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Of course
Those in my position just aren’t very good at banter, jokes and all that. We try… but we fail….
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
do you come from an accounting or finance background?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Accounting mostly some finance and management
I forgot to ask what is the name of the Company you work for? ;)
FYI – PR is lucky, they have THE funniest CPA in the US. Junction Rox.
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
by dsmba on Nov 23, 2011 2:06 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
The only one of my buddies who is a CPA is pretty goofy
and my company is privately held so you don’t scare me at all :)
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I may not scare you but I know many people who work for the IRS
They are much scarier they we are ;)
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
Yeah I suppose but it's like old Robert Zimmerman said
when you ain’t got nothin, you got nothing to lose
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Money, meh; its when they take your freedom
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
This unsolicited testimonial brought to you by...
Junction Rox, CPA. Meeting your witty banter and stupid question needs since… I don’t know, a while ago, I guess…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Nov 23, 2011 3:14 PM MST up reply actions
nice plug!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
They said nobody would be able to tell I had plugs....
I should have just gone with the toup, I guess…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Nov 23, 2011 3:19 PM MST up reply actions
You are too young to remember Jack Benny and Jello!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
when i first read this, i thought you mean SEC like the college athletics division
stuff makes a lot more sense now.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
CAM NEWTON!
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Great piece Jeff
Although I agree even divisions is better, I would have preferred they revert back to the two divisions in each league (with two wildcards each) but I understand the travel schedule for many teams would have been detrimental.
Really surprised this was agreed to by both parties since they didn’t have the small market fan in mind and I’m hoping the effects of this deal are much smaller than we’re making them to appear.
by Cargo'es Yard on Nov 23, 2011 7:36 AM MST up reply actions
Do did the Owners of the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox draft this
And then held a gun to all the other Owner’s heads forcing them to sign it?
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
I really don't think this is as bad as people think
it might mean that no more Matzeks drop to competitive teams, but it does mean that all of the truly elite prospects will now either be signed in the top ten picks or in the 11th through 20th. I see Dexter’s $973K 14th round bonus record being shattered soon.
The 2.9 million international means that we will see a lot more Albert Pujols type situations where 15yo dominant Dominican or Venezualan top prospects will be showing up in Florida, California and Texas HS(you don’t think there are any unscrupulous agents who would bankroll a 2 year stint in the old Etats Unis?).
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
any bonus after the 10th round over $100k counts toward the top 10 round slot pool
So don’t expect Dex’ bonus to be broken
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 7:47 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
yeah but if Josh Bell is sitting there in round 14 you don't think the Rangers
will throw 4 million at him and take the 4 million dollar tax? especially since the 18 mil they throw at int signings is now 3 milmillion?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
that's possible
But that would also result in a lost draft pick the next year, correct? Doubtful they’d go that far for a high school kid
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 7:57 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I guess but since you can now buy sandwich picks from bad teams they might risk it
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I have two rather large disagreements with you, Jeff
1) we can not assume the recommended slot pool will be identical to the sum of the slots in 2011. They will likely be much much higher, making it probable to continue wooing talent with big $ while still avoiding the tax. We don’t know all slot assignments yet, but Jeff Passan tweeted that the 1st overall pick is set at $7.2mil. Considering Garrett Cole got $8mil on an MLB deal, that’s pretty fair. And a lot higher than the previous slot.
2) you claim the caps on the draft and intl spending will hurt the rockies because they build through those, but that ignores HOW they build through those. We aren’t the White Sox, but the rockies rarely spend significantly in the draft. In 2011, They were bottom five, with only Story going above slot by any real amount. Other than Matzek, a little on Parker and one higher bonus lower round guy (Fowler, Cleary, Swanner, Massey), they’ve spent relatively little. The new caps shouldn’t change their procedure much…it’ll bring other clubs closer to rockies spending though.
Same with the international free agents. They’ve upped the bonuses some to Rosell and Payamps. But otherwise, you say they’ll have to look for bargains? That’s already what they do. Jimenez, Morales, Nicasio, Chacin and Rogers were relatively low bonus acquisitions.
While the rockies “build through the draft,” it hasn’t been from pouring money in. The rockies absolutely are a bottom ten market and should benefit from new rules there. Not sure of revenue, but I doubt that. But since the rockies stuck to slot, and really stayed fairly close to the new intl pool, very little will change for the rockies while other teams like Texas and Pittsburgh will have to overhaul their methods. I think this CBA benefits the rockies, at least as much as any other smaller market team.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 7:46 AM MST via mobile reply actions
agree...
1) It will not be the same as the current slotting system, it will be much higher—there is a BA article that basically states this much.
2) agreed—Rockies don’t tend to overspend
However, I think the bonus picks may elude the Rockies. I’m sure they are not in the bottom 10 in revenue (around 17 last year) and would guess might be right on the cusp of the bottom 10 in market size—Milwaukee, KC, Oakland (depending on how it is split from San Fran), Pittsburgh, Baltimore, San Diego, St. Louis, Cincinnati are all smaller TV markets. While I find the idea laudable, the sharp cut-off for eligibility for the bottom 10 is arbitrary—you really don’t want to be 11, which is close to where the Rockies will be.
hopefully they'll go by this ranking
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 8:20 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
They might not get the bonus picks based on revenue
but there will the picks any teams lose due to the penalties will go by lottery to teams who didn’t exceed their draft pool. So those would still be a possibility (also, I think it’s only those bonus picks that can be traded—not regular picks).
A well measured critique...an off the cuff response:
1. The spending pool will range between $4.5 million and $11.5 million in 2012…and 5 teams spent more than the upper limit in 2011. I hope that MLB will raise the caps substantially more from that number.
2. I agree with you on this point to an extent. Colorado hasn’t been a team that spends extensively on the draft or excessively in Latin America. However, I think that with the growing disparity between the haves and have nots, the Rockies would have turned more toward that strategy in the next couple of years as a way to add more talent. Now that option simply isn’t as available for them.
I believe that Colorado is in the 16-20 range in terms of revenue.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
its true that the properties of talent acquisition are dynamic
So It’s difficult to know what the Rockies would have done (more int’l $ WOULD follow recent patterns) or how we would compete against teams spending the same. It appears a positive slightly at worst now to me though.
As for the 5 teams spending over the cap, there will be no extra picks in 2012, so teams like the 2011 diamondbacks won’t be there to stuff that total. I also think that cap will motivate teams to evaluate their bonuses more to get below the number. Just because they spent over that number in 2011 doesn’t mean they would be incapable of paying less in 2012, especially since the drafted amateur wouldn’t have much leverage in most cases.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 8:37 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
It will certainly force teams to craft a solid draft strategy...but again, it's at the price of flexibility.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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Eschew Obfuscation!
You're assuming the amateurs have no leverage..
however we’ve seen that the most talented athletes do have leverage. High School players can choose to attend college. Multi-sport athletes can choose to play in a different sport. Another league such a Japan may see an opportunity to steal picks away. Or simply the athlete will choose not to enter baseball from the beginning because of the limitations on what they can earn.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
"I know, because I'm a cop." ~ Charlie Swan
I didn't say no leverage
I said little leverage in most cases. Which isn’t changed from now. We have seen several back away from their leveraged position and sign for much less than their asking price – Bell, Matzek. This may push their rewards a little lower, but how many will walk away from 40% of their initial price but take 50%? For most, getting millions or even six figures is the best choice.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 8:58 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
So you're willing to give up on the most talented athletes..
in return for saving on the rest? Because this affects the athletes with highest abilities.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
"I know, because I'm a cop." ~ Charlie Swan
I think that argument lacks a certain perspective
And the doom and gloomers are WAY overreacting. There seem to be a fair number of libertarian types among baseball writers, who consider it a given that 18 year olds will always choose a future, potentially higher payday over an artificially lower one today. That’s poppycock. Though it may be artificially low, and that may insult our sense of market freedom, it’s still (for 1st round kids) a huge amount of money to play a freakin’ game. You think any significant number of them would turn it down in favor of an extremely uncertain future NFL contract, or to go to college? Let alone international signees. Even a few hundred thousand is a king’s ransom for 99% of them. He’ll, it sets their family up for a decade or more.
I think the hand-wringing has much more to do with the writers’ ideological bent than the relatively benign effects the CBA will have on the draft.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 23, 2011 9:24 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
John Elway would be a Yankee under the system they just changed
Dave Winfield would be a Ram under the new one
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Who knows
NFL contracts are unguaranteed so it may still be a smart decision to go baseball. In any case, people like that are very very rare.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 23, 2011 9:57 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think two sport super stars are that rare, elite athletes tend to dominate several sports
Allen Iverson once picked off 5 passes in one game in HS
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Bo knows baseball
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and Brian Jordan, Deion Sanders, Carl Crawford, Kirk Gibson,
Bob Gibson, Tony Gwynn, Kenny Lofton or Joe Mauer
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Todd Helton was a QB
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True so were Mark Derosa and Ryne Sandberg
and I am not sure but I believe Jackie Robinson was a Halfback at UCLA
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I believe that its more going to boil down to
What sport each player loves and the likeliness they will get to play at a professional level.
But that’s just me.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
True but a lot of these guys, Josh Bell jumps to mind
love both but the money/security for their family is tough to pass up.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
deion sanders is a bit of a different case
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
I stringly disagree
That any significant number of these guys have real, first-round money options in multiple sports. Allen Iverson was never going to get a dime of NFL money. The Bo Jacksons and Deion Sanders of the world are incredibly unusual.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 23, 2011 11:02 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
If the NFL drafted players out of HS Iverson maybe never makes the NBA
since Baseball is the only one of the three major sports that can offer a HS senior a life changing amount of money. That by itself is a significant advantage, one that they have cut into severely in this CBA.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
He weighed like 150 pounds in H.S.
There’s no conceivable way the NFL even glances in his direction.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 23, 2011 3:43 PM MST up reply actions
On top of this,
football has become so roided out that the number of players whose bodies would work in both leagues has deceased since those days.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 3:47 PM MST up reply actions
so just QBs, WR, CB, S most RB and most LB
so I guess that is only 13-14 of 22 starters
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
i would think linebackers are too big to play baseball
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
my point is that
The signing bonus they asked for under the old CBA
>>>>
What most ended up signing for
>
What they would sign for under the new CBA.
>
What they actually would settle for at the least, aka the level at which going to college/other sport is the better decision.
Most young kids will be wooed by large guaranteed money rather than a possible payday off in the future MAYBE. Of course, if a guy truly loves football more, he might just pursue it (even Russell Wilson signed though). I think the instances of passing off guaranteed money for college/other sports will be quite low. Those players won’t sign for as much, but they won’t be totally unhappy signing either
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 10:31 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
do you think we get fowler under this system?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
that's difficult to know, since we don't know what Dex' allegiances were to at the time
I think we COULD have gotten him, absolutely, at a lower bonus that he still may have accepted. Half a mil is a bunch of money. So is a quarter mil. Tough to know unless you get a candid quote from dex himself
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 11:29 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I mentioned it yesterday
but I’m hoping this low cap on international spending may sway teams away from building up international operations somewhat.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
You don't think steroids & HGH should be banned?
Bring back Bonds/McGwire/Sosa ball? The good old days, I guess.
Sorry the Wall fell and you can no longer root for the East German swim team.
I just don't have the ethical abhorrence that many do when talking about steroids.
They weren’t illegal for most of that period — so the players that took them during that period shouldn’t be vilified.
I’m also sick of sportswriters getting on their high horse and passing judgment on players like Jeff Bagwell, for whom there is absolutely no steroids evidence…but that didn’t stop the plurality of writers from leaving him off of their Hall of Fame ballot.
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They will probably hold it against Helton also. He played during that era. But, they will hold Coors against him also.
88 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
If I held Coors against me
Do you think it would feel good?
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are the mountains on the label blue?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Are you calling me cold?
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I am saying you are willing to sacrifice...
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
depends
are you drunk?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
now?
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in general
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
yes.
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then it'll
feel good.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
to me.....
the issue is that if legalized, then one would have to take steroids (which absolutely work) or possibly HGH (which is more questionable, but reasonable think may work too) to compete with the others who are willing to. Since this carries health risks, it is a really bad idea to create a climate where one has to take health risks in order to have a career.
They already do take health risks to have a career.
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such as?
the odds of getting hit with a ball? The chance of blowing out a knee or shoulder? Yes, some things are unavoidable, but steroids are completely avoidable—and illegal without a prescription.
You think whipping your arm to throw a ball 90+ mph is natural?
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that Steroids or HGH will is arguable
Yes Lyle Alzado (biker/boxer/DE/party animal from the 70’s is likely have been doing other things too) but Lou Ferrigno seems to be doing fine.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Alzado...
It is unlikely that Alzado got cancer from his steroid use, but the effect on your heart, your brain, your mood, your testicles and your liver are real.
Just because Schwarzenegger and Ferrigno are fine, doesn’t mean that you aren’t risking your life by using it. There are many smokers that live a normal length-life, but that doesn’t mean it is safe.
what happened there?
I meant to say that Alzado probably wasn’t killed by steroids, but that there are real health effects of steroid abuse—these effects are on your heart, liver, brain and testicles and yes—it is very much putting your life at risk.
Just because you can point at anecdotal examples of not-dead steroid users, doesn’t make them safe. Not every smoker dies before they are 80 years old—not every woman that used thalidomide while pregnant had a child with birth defects and not every person who gets cancer dies—it doesn’t mean it is harmless.
harmless and a risk that a person is willing to take to enhance
their standard of living are two different things.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
to be clear.....
you are advocating the legalized use of steroids?
of course, people are willing to accept the risk for the chance to make millions of dollars. By legalizing the use, you are squeezing out many players who are not willing to accept that risk. In essence, you are requiring players to make a decision: take steroids or don’t become a major leaguer.
by DenverBears on Nov 23, 2011 10:31 AM MST up reply actions
the list of people who took steroids/HGH is full of players
who never touched the majors.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
do steroids make you a great baseball player obviously not
Do they help significantly?
Most argue that they do but for me the argument is far from settled.
Do I not want them in baseball?
Sure but but I also don’t like my team spending 1/3 of what the top payroll is, hate the DH, and think draft picks should all be tradeable but I doubt any of those things change.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Well draft picks might be tradable now
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
just those comp sandwich picks
imagine the haul Washington could have got for the strasburg pick
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
and my dad who was a non-drinker, non-smoker died of esophageal
cancer at 50, saying that people who are constantly working out, traveling, tearing tendons, breaking bones, and ripping muscles are not allowed to endanger their long term health is a bit disingenous
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
steroids and working out....
are hardly the same. Who is being disingenuous?
by DenverBears on Nov 23, 2011 10:32 AM MST up reply actions
you don't think years of working out intensively don't shorten
a person’s life? I would argue that the stress a top tier modern athlete puts their body through is at least as damaging to their life expectancy as say HGH is.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
agreed.
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I don’t think so.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
You think the travel schedule, stress/scrutiny, lifestyle
and training regimen don’t take a toll? Very hard to prove either way but HGH has not been linked to the nasty stuff that Anabolics have, and while doctors warn not to use unless prescribed by a doctor they kind of say that about everything
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Well,
1. I kind of am inclined to believe that a career where one’s physical fitness is something of a priority leads to some sort of a health benefit (and I don’t get the impression that their workouts are a negative as they’ve gradually worked up to the level of their current workouts since probably high school).
2. Baseball players have a strong union which provides a good amount of money and health benefits. These two things alone can probably offset a lot of the supposed damage.
3. I think the stress and scrutiny you mention is certainly damaging but many careers can be pretty stressful at times, and many of those careers don’t feature a lengthy offseason to recuperate.
Additionally, not all players are necessarily scrutinized equally and for me personally, I think a strong player development system should really include training on managing/coping with/reducing stress, whether or not this actually happens remain to be seen.
At any rate I feel as though even though baseball players may have a lot of (unique) challenges, I don’t think they’re really that much worse for the wear at all relative to other segments of the population.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I would say they likely out live the truly inactive
or the Drill Rig workers. Baseball is probably a bad example compared to say Football, Hockey or Soccer players but the Stan Musials or Buck O’neils of the world are pretty rare.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Honestly
I think a greater shock to the system (Though I make no claims about how this would impact life expectancy) is the transition from baseball to retirement. Unless players get involved in coaching or broadcasting, it usually seems pretty rough to me.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Are you refering to the thing that ate Jack Clark,
the thing that ate Tony Gwynn, or the thing that ate John Kruk?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
None of the above. I forget which player talked about the transition but it’s tough to go from a seven figure star athlete to just anyone. Also, if you look at a lot of the post-baseball careers, they’re not always the greatest. Not to say former players aren’t happy with these things, but I imagine the transition itself isn’t always the most painless.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
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exercise increases your life span
other things in a baseball player’s life are detrimental, but you can hardly say that in a vacuum, the guy who’s in better shape won’t live longer
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
Depends on the type of exercise.
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...
elaborate
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
Anything in excess is bad for you.
Even exercise. And lets face it – elite athletes abuse the hell out of their bodies – leading to some serious issues later in life.
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I don't think that's the argument
Athletes – and everyone else – should be allowed to endanger thier long term health if that’s what they choose to do. A person’s health is thier own buisness. Furthermore, I have a bit of a libertarian streak myself and believe that all drugs should be made legal for adults with no exceptions whatsoever. If a sound-minded adult wants to take steriods for any reason and is willing to suffer the consequences, so be it.
But what we’re talking about here is whether or not baseball’s rules should allow performance-enhancing drugs. If they do, then what results is a scenario where a person who would otherwise choose the healther alternative (not taking steriods) is now compelled to make a different choice just to keep up with those who are using steriods. Yes, that’s still a choice (be healthier vs. have a better chance to suceed) , but that’s not a choice the rules of baseball should force players to make. It’s just not.
Yes, there are inherently unhealthy aspects of baseball and almost every other sport. Anybody who plays makes a choice to accept that. But what’s disingenous is comparing a deliberate choice to use steriods to an accidental injury. They are not the same thing. Not at all. One of those two things can be prevented (or at least curtailed) by rules/testing. That being the case, how is baseball not a better (and more moral) game by not forcing people to have to choose between using a dangerous drug and being competetive?
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 10:39 AM MST up reply actions
What I am saying is a player endangers their long term health
by taking on the role of elite athlete. The Intense training, stress, travel, strain on homelife/relationships, media scrutiny so saying they aren’t allowed to choose something they think will benefit themselves and their family because you are worried about their quality of life?
This in a sport where hiring a 16yo in another country to devote his life to your team is par for the course strikes me as absurd. They can then cut that player free if he is injured playing for them, but that they suddenly care about his quality of life 20 years from now?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I still think you're missing the point
Of course there are cons that come along with the pros of pursuing a career as a professional athelete. And of course there are aspects of professional baseball that aren’t so warm and fuzzy.
But when one aspect of the game can be made better, more fair, there’s absolutely no reason not to do it. You’ve mentioned several things about the business and practice of baseball that work at cross-purposes to a player’s wellbeing, but how on Earth does that consistitute a good arguement to avoid making improvements when and where they’re possible?
You’ve thrown out a lot of red herrings here. Of course there will continute to be dangerous/undeserable aspects of baseball even if/when steriods/HGH are taken out of the equation, but how is having one less dangerous/undesirable aspect in play a bad thing?
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 11:11 AM MST up reply actions
I am saying that it is splitting hairs to allow things like
cortisone, tommy john, blood platelet based rehab all because they are scientific/medical advances but saying HGH is not because you have labeled it a “PED”
Since it is splitting hairs, I come down on a different side of the fence than you apparently do.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I don't think it's splitting hairs, at all.
All of the things you just mentioned are drugs/procedures employed to treat injuries and/or return a player to the feild when they might otherwise be unable to. Steriods/HGH, as they’ve been commonly used, are proactive steps taken by players to increase performance above thier natural baseline.
Comparing well founded, medically endorsed treatments to the covert consumption of drugs in a manner that is dangerous and unquestionably NOT medically endorsed is, again, disingenious. At best.
I understand that steriods/HGH can also have a role in the treatment of injury/desease, and to the extent that MLB could put together a rule and process to distingish between the use of steriods/HGH as PEDs and their use as legitimate treatment, personally I’d be open to that.
But that’s still beside the point. Players overwhelming use steriods/HGH to gain an advantage on thier competition (not as legitimate treatments). This is not a small difference. It is not minor or trival. And it is not splitting hairs.
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
Ask Rich Jackson what he thinks of Cortisone
shots as a “well founded, medically endorsed treatment”
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Another red herring...
Of course there are examples of cortisone shots being misused. That doesn’t mean that cortisone shots = steriods.
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
HGH is used all over the place in mdeical
treatments, so is Pseudoephedrine they aren’t allowed in in MLB. Red herring (fallacy), the informal fallacy of presenting an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question. I believe the argument we are having is about where we draw the line on what is should be allowable and why so presenting examples of things that are legal, widely used and have similar effect is hardly a red herring
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
That's not the arguement, at least not the one I'm having.
I’ve been trying to make the case that MLB getting HGH out of baseball is unquestionably a good thing, saying that just because there is a lot of other bad stuff about baseball, that’s no reason not to get rid of this one bad thing, HGH. So mentioning all those other bad things, while they are, in and of themselves, bad things, is a red herring in that it has nothing to do with the “good” that is getting rid of HGH.
In talking about the difference between treatments for injury/desease and treatments to artificially enhance ability, you alluded to the fact that sometimes cortizone shots are inproperty used. Again, that point, in and of itself, is absolutely valid, but it’s a red herring in that it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that there’s a big difference between treatments for injury/desease and treatments to enhance performance.
Since we’ve moved on to semantics rather than substance, I suggest this thread come to a close. But one last point: I just aknowledged the fact that HGH can be used as a legitimate treatment. And I said I’d be ok with MLB allowing that provided there’s a good way to distinguish between its use in that way as opposed to as a PED.
Now… Go Rockies? ;-)
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 12:17 PM MST up reply actions
Also didn't McGwire talk about how he started
using them in an attempt to earn his contract?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I just realized something we can definitely agree on...
…taste in profile pictures. ;-)
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Nov 23, 2011 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
I know AT&T and PNC have amazing views
but Coors is pretty hard to top
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
No kidding
I also hate this madonna/whore complex that society in general and writers in specific have with sports figures, hell public figures. Whether you are talking about Doc Gooden or Brittany Spears I get a little sick of everyone fawning over people on the way up and piling on them the minute they hit a rough patch.
I also don’t understand how what Bartolo Colon did is looked at as legit, or Cortisone shots for that matter but if a player takes HGH they are immediately spitting on the game. How do guys like Brian Giles or Julio Lugo get a pass but someone like Mark Mcgwire is satan incarnate?
That Miguel Cabrera can be caught in the condition he was in a year after Nick Adenhart was killed and it blows over in a week, but Sammy Sosa will be off the ballot for the HOF in no time?
Save me from the rightous indignation of those who venerate the traditions of a league that excluded black players for the first 60 years of existance, that ignored the handfulls of benzadrine that players were downing in the 50’s/60’s and were perfectly happy to reap the benifits of those same players getting bigger and stronger.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Steroids corrupted baseball..
they shattered unbreakable records and created a game that was unnatural. In it’s wake it left us questioning every player who had a good season. We were left asking if it was because of his talent or his chemistry? That is why steroids is bad.
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"I know, because I'm a cop." ~ Charlie Swan
Every record is unbreakable.
there is no such thing as an unbreakable record.
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Records reflect our limitations..
For 100 years 60 HRs was shown to be a baseball players limitations. Only 2 players had ever exceeded that total. Then within the space of 3 years the record was broken 6 times by 3 different players.
1. Barry Bonds (36) - 73 - 2001
2. Mark McGwire (34) - 70 - 1998
3. Sammy Sosa (29) - 66 - 1998
4. Mark McGwire (35) - 65 - 1999
5. Sammy Sosa (32) - 64 - 2001
6. Sammy Sosa (30) - 63 - 1999
7. Roger Maris (26) - 61 - 1961
8. Babe Ruth+ (32) - 60 - 1927
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
"I know, because I'm a cop." ~ Charlie Swan
Humans evolve
and get faster and stronger over time. why would this not apply to someone’s ability to hit homeruns?
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evolve?
evolution takes many, many generations—-millions of years. This is not evolution! You could argue nutrition, general health, better medicine, but not evolution.
From what I understand
HGH and Steroids shorten the healing time your body needs. Thus you get the ability to work muscles out more often, and increase muscle mass. Or it allows someone who just had surgery to be out for 4 weeks instead of 8.
I don’t see it so much as cheating the game of baseball as it is taking away chances for other players to have their time in the spotlight. How many players in the Steroids era were there that were potential MLB caliber players that were shelved in AAA because their counterparts were enjoying extended careers due to HGH and Steroids.
I’m not for it or against it in totality because as a fan, I’m still getting the same entertainment value. However, if its in the rules, I’m going to feel cheated if someone gets caught because its now against the rules.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Craig Counsell was screwed!!!
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
He had his moment in the sun..
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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that was precisely the article that jumped into my head
I think this is the funniest thing I have ever read in the Onion, but it has some stiff competition
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
That one is pretty phenomenal.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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this has to be the line that sealed it for me
“Garth “The Embrace” Josephsen, who maintained some form of reassuring but undemanding physical contact with his fiancée for nine consecutive hours"
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Nay
It’s short, but this is undoubtedly my favorite sports-related onion article, and is probably shortlisted for my favorite all time.
Goodbye 2011, hello uncertainty about 2012...
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 10:08 AM MST up reply actions
Like I said there are quite a few in the running
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
you need to separate the two...
I could see the defense of use for recovery from injury—other types of steroids are prescribed for injuries (cortisone is a steroid hormone). However, anabolic steroids are generally used chronically to build strength and it comes at a health cost. HGH may or may not aid in recovery from injury and may or may not (my bet is it does a lot) help in other aspects of athletic competition.
if that's the case
then why has no one broken the hit record (aside from one, and he limped to it), the IP record, the CG record, etc?
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
Why did it take Cal so long
to break LG’s record? Or Aaron so long to break Ruth’s?
Records are hard to break, but that doesn’t mean that they are unbreakable.
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aaron broke ruth's record the same way rose broke cobb's
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
by breaking it?
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limping to it
i don’t even really know where i’m going with this, to be honest; i just wanted to play too.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
they are grueling for sure
but unbreakable? no.
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ICHIRO WAS ON THE JUICE!!!!
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
All that saki.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 2:10 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
So you're saying players suddenly evolved arouns the time steroids and hgh was introduced?
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
"I know, because I'm a cop." ~ Charlie Swan
by Charlie77 on Nov 23, 2011 5:14 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
for the 50 years before Babe Ruth 20 was the unreachable barrier
then Ruth hit 51 as a 25yo. and if you lower that total to 54 you get Jimmy Foxx, Hack Wilson, Mickey Mantle, Ralph Kiner, and Hank Greenberg. Don’t forget that that in the last 20-25 years nearly every team is playing in a new stadium as well
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by TomCat009 on Nov 23, 2011 9:18 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
well said
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With the exceptions of the Polo Grounds, Forbes and Old Cominsky and RH Yankee Stadium; there wer a higher percentage of band boxes too.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Down the lines sure but the CF in most of those old parks are ridiculous
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
See: Polo Grounds
Left Field Line – 279 ft. (not posted – sometimes listed as 280)
Left Field Upper Deck Overhang – about 250 ft.
Shallow Left Center – 315 ft.
Left Center 1 – 360 ft.
Left Center 2 – 414 ft.
Deep Left Center – 447 ft. left of bullpen curve
Deep Left Center – 455 ft. right of bullpen curve
Center Field – approx. 425 ft. (unposted) corners of runways
Center Field – 483 ft. posted on front of clubhouse balcony, sometimes 475 ft.
Center Field – 505 ft. (unposted) sometimes given as total C.F. distance
Deep Right Center – 455 ft. left of bullpen curve
Deep Right Center – 449 ft. right of bullpen curve
Right Center 2 – 395 ft.
Right Center 1 – 338 ft.
Shallow Right Center – 294 ft.
Right Field Line – 257 ft. 3 3/8 in. (not posted – sometimes listed as 258)
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 2:05 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Gah Castilla would have shattered Ruth's record playing there
his HR tracker would have looked like a Hydrangea bush at the foul pole
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Clint Barmes: All time home run king
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 2:15 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Here is something to ponder...
Willie Mays was not particularly a pull hitter. When he played in the Polo Grounds CF was called the place where triples went to die.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
true but if you could get a double through the LF/CF gap you could run all day
read The Year Babe Ruth Hit 104 Home Runs by Bill Jenkinson all about how the parks then changed the numbers more than you know
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Before Ruth there was many parks without fences..
Most ballparks used a rope and had people park or stand arouns the rope. Look at Tris Speakers numbers as an example. He had more HRs after Ruth came into the league than afterwards. Ruth revolutionized baseball with the HR and owners built stadiums to take advantage of this phenomenon embraced by the fans. Before Ruth players loaded up on triples and doubles.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
"I know, because I'm a cop." ~ Charlie Swan
by Charlie77 on Nov 23, 2011 5:12 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
So chicks aren't the only people that dig the long ball?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
the HR/AB didn't change at all
I truly believe talent dilution had more to do with it than anything, Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson had no problem pitching to these guys, but Brian Bohananon and Rolando Arrojo did.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
or juiced baseballs
created by a league desperate to regain their audience after a cancelled World Series…
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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They can do all these labor agreements they want but the way I see all this is simple.
As long as their is baseball games to be played and the Rockies can field a quality team, I don’t care what they do.
88 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
OT: I officially hate you NBC
Community is my Arrested Development
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
another one of those shows that will go before everyone who would love it can find it.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Technically it's not cancelled
So we have the hope that we can at least see the remaining episodes by summer.
But I am sufficiently bummed. I adore Community! :(
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If I don't shave for a couple weeks
I am pretty much Tom Haverford.
lol
Carlos Gonzalez has an extraordinary tendency to amplify light through stimulated emission of radiation in frequent bursts.
Shoulder-to-Shoulder for life!
by Hollidayrain on Nov 23, 2011 10:45 AM MST up reply actions
That's interesting
My sister full believes that someone at NBC spied on me for a year and then created “Ron Swanson.”
by Northsider1964 on Nov 23, 2011 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
Bring me all of your bacon.
I’m afraid you misunderstood what I said as “bring me a lot of bacon.” I want you to bring me all of your bacon.
Goodbye 2011, hello uncertainty about 2012...
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 1:31 PM MST up reply actions
Isn't he on Parks and Rec not Community?
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
via Buster Olney
Grady Sizemore gets a $5 million base salary, plus $4 m. in incentives, to re-sign with the Indians.
About as expected.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Too rich for my blood.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 10:45 AM MST up reply actions
definitely wouldn't have wanted to beat that by enough to lure him away from Cleveland
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I mentioned weeks ago that
the Pirates released Garrett Jones. If we’re going of a low-risk/high-reward LH OF, he’s a better move.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 11:02 AM MST up reply actions
OT: Holiday Humor from McSweeney's
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/pardoned-turkeys-where-are-they-now
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I think that the idea of changing the best of the best FA compensation to
stealing a player from the team that signs them’s farm system would decrease the volutility of the compensation.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Since I wasn't around for yesterday's Pile
ATF – with you vast knowledge of the DSL could you please enlighten me to the knowledge behind this statement regarding Aquino
even if he wasn’t the best pitching prospect on that team
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
It's obviously difficult to gauge DSL prospects
We don’t see them, they are 50 times further from MLB than AAA. But I’d say Joel Payamps is certainly more highly regarded than Aquino based on buzz from BA and signing bonuses.
Here is a blurb from BA’s Ben Badler touching on Payamps this summer.
Payamps was given a $465k bonus, I believe a record for a rockies Latin pitcher signee. For comparison, Johendi Jiminian signed for $100k the same year as Aquino, and Jiminian was the headliner of that year’s Latin pitchers. compare those to other recent int’l signinga in David Kandilas ($150k) and Rosell Herrera ($550k, franchise tops) and you can see where Payamps fit in terms of prestige when entering the org.
I may write up a DSL season review, but PAyamps did have inferior stats to Aquino: ~3 ERA, ~9K/9, 4 BB/9, but he also is 17 until next April, while Aquino is now 19. Aquino certainly has made ground on Jiminian, but Johendi still might be the better prospect, depending on who you ask. It’s a nice little trio. I figure Aquino and Jiminian will be in Grand Junction next year, and Payamps sticks in the Dominican.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 2:04 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Thanks
didn’t mean to sound like I disagreed just wanting more insight. Seems like quite the pipeline for the Rockies so I would like to know more. In fact it seems like the Rockies Intls is/will produce more than their Rule 4 draft.
"Take the first step in faith. You don't have to see the whole staircase, just take the first step" Dr. MLK Jr.
that's how I took it
There’s a lot to like with some of these Latin players. But there’s a lot of volatility with young raw Latin teens, moreso than the draft. So who knows? But Rosell and Payamps in particular were lauded as very good gets when they signed here.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 2:25 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
OT: Do you ever wonder how they decide which Turkey Gets to be pardoned by the president?
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
they pick the one
that looks like it would taste the worst.
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that would be all of them.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 2:25 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
usted no le gusta el pavo?
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I thought you were Mexican.
¿a usted no le gusta el pavo guajolote?
Nahuatl words are fun.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:45 PM MST up reply actions
i'm a bad mexican.
I thought everyone here already knew that….
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I thought you were just BAAD!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
i'm a sheep?
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No that's BAAAAAA.................
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
It's funny. I learned Spanish living in Mexico.
I moved to Peru, and no one understood anything I was talking about.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:56 PM MST up reply actions
Nahuatl is pretty cool
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I like turkey....they just don't look appetizing when alive
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 2:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
that is a really weird thing to say
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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by Muzia on Nov 23, 2011 2:29 PM MST up reply actions 5 recs
You, sir, win the Rockpile.
Happy Thanksgiving.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 2:46 PM MST up reply actions
Nice to know I will now add that to my ammo can
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Imagine a Red Sox choosing his final resting place as Dallas?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
We need to make this turkey green
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Replay
Thrilled to see this finally expanded, but I’m very worried that they left it up to the MLB and (especially) the umpires to figure out the specifics. I can’t help but fearing this means things will be done in the worst possible way for the players and fans. We all know umpires leaving and returning to the field is what causes the biggest delay. We have great models that work (NHL, major tennis) and one model that clearly has problems (NFL). It’ll be very interesting to see what they come up with.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
only thing left is
7/7/9 postseason
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
Game 9 on Thanksgiving night!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 23, 2011 3:17 PM MST up reply actions
7/7/7 would be better
7 + 7 + 7 = 21. 21 < 31, so there’s no reason they couldn’t get it all done in October, with a few days to spare for travel even.
Instead we’re getting 1+5+7+7. It’ll make setting rotations interesting at least.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
I might actually get baseball on my birthday
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And if the Rox make it far enough, and Fowler is starting
You’d get birthday Dex.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 3:50 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
cut the season back to 154, schedule more doubleheaders
7/79 is the way to go
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
154 isn't going to happen. Teams already have TV contracts years into the future
besides, why have less baseball? You can get 7/7/7 (or even 7/7/9 if you really tried) into the month of October. They play nearly every day March-September. Why should October look like an NHL schedule?
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
also jeff, a point you neglected to mention, but i've pulled from the comments on that dave cameron post:
They also made it highly unlikely that the big market teams can get elite talent in the Amateur Draft. The overslot penalties are steep, and they really want players to get drafted in order of talent rather than signability.
The big market teams, such as the Yankees, Red Sox, and Philles, now have little to no chance of drafting elite talent in this scenario. In the past, the only chances they had of getting the elite players, because they’ve been good for such a long time and have been drafting at the end of the first round, was to hope teams would pass on the high bonus demands in favor of more signable players. Or just hope for exceptionally deep talent pools.
Without bonus demands, players now have zero leverage, especially the college seniors who can go no where else. At least juniors and high school seniors have another year of eligibility or scholarships.
Really, the owners’ pockets are getting helped a lot here, and that was never a worry with the Steinbrenners, who are now limited to how much they can spend on amateur talent, just like everyone else is.
I understand what you’re saying about the big market teams, but even they try building through the amateur pipeline.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
2011 Arizona Diamondbacks PRMLB GM
I have mixed feelings about the new CBA but i am starting to warm up to it the more I look at things.
I think I have to agree with ATF about how the changes to the Rule 4 draft and Int’l signings doesn’t really hurt the Rockies based on their past activity. Tampa, Texas? They’re screwed.
I like the idea to have the draft driven by talent versus signability, but I think the caps and the penalties for exceeding the caps are off base. Also, the int’l signing rules seem wholly unnecessary. Not sure what “problem” is being fixed. I can’t help but feel that these rule changes were nothing more than a money grab by the players association. The money that can’t be spent on the draft can now be used to pay existing MLB players. I see an increases emphasis on signing free agents, because there will be no cap on that spending.
The worst part (and this was mentioned in the article) is the siphoning of talent away from baseball as a result of better financial incentives offered by other sports. If the players thought they were doing themselves a favor, they may be right in the short term, but they may have relegated baseball to permanent lower-tier status in the long term. Smoke ’em if you got ’em!!
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
True Story:
I just now figured out what CBA meant….
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Chinese Basketball Association.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
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Colorado Bear Alliance
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Canadian Bacon Advocates
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 23, 2011 2:21 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Czech British Affiliates
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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Clever Bogus Acronyms
Goodbye 2011, hello uncertainty about 2012...
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 2:22 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
no, that can't be it....
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 23, 2011 2:23 PM MST up reply actions
Collaborative Bartering Arrangement
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
cantankerous belligerent argument
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Crush the Bastard Astros
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Nov 23, 2011 2:37 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't Buy All-stars
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
WINNER!
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 3:19 PM MST up reply actions
That would be the NBA version...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 23, 2011 3:18 PM MST up reply actions
Crush Bobcats Always!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Choking Basketball games Away.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 3:39 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
A defunct basketball league
That’s on the long list of things Isiah Thomas has destroyed since retiring from the NBA.
by Northsider1964 on Nov 23, 2011 3:06 PM MST up reply actions
Isaiah Thomas cheated off of my mother's psychology exam in college
True story
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 3:08 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Did your mother punch him in the face?
If so, she is my everlasting hero.
What a sorry excuse for a human being.
by Northsider1964 on Nov 23, 2011 3:11 PM MST up reply actions
looks like the new draft slots are 1.5 times higher than 2011
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 23, 2011 3:11 PM MST via mobile reply actions
Royals seem to be signing Chen.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/royals-to-sign-bruce-chen.html
Not that he was high on anyone’s list, but he’s another FA pitcher of middling quality off the market.
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Pretty decent pitcher, good for them
Seems to be a fair amount of “old team loyalty” going around this year. We’ll see if it holds any longer. I think it might in Pujols case, and Heath Bell maybe.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 23, 2011 3:45 PM MST up reply actions
Mother of God:
Cherpumplecan: It starts with a layer of white cake encasing a cherry pie, then a layer of yellow cake surrounding a pumpkin pie, then a spice cake concealing an apple pie, and finally a chocolate cake enveloping a pecan pie.

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not to mention
the cinnamon on top of the confectioners sugar looking like leaves…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Amazing
Turducken for dinner, this for dessert….
You couldn’t eat for a week, but it’d be worth it!
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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Colon Blow Awareness
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Two Words::
Turkey skin.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 4:04 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
For dessert after the turducken
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 3:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That can't be real?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
BAM!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp4yWTLIPaE
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 23, 2011 3:50 PM MST up reply actions
My golly gee
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Technically, that appears to be a picture of a Cherpumple. I don't see the pecan layer
somehow, it just doesn’t seem complete without the pecan layer.
The only way to ruin that work of perfection would be by adding a layer of carrot cake encasing a mince meat pie…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 23, 2011 3:53 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah. Carrot cake isn't a real cake...
Can you believe I had to order jars of mince pie filling on amazon this year for my grandfather (who lives in Maryland)? He wouldn’t consider it Thanksgiving without a mincemeat pie.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
Whoa there mister.
Carrot cake is not real cake? Please provide evidence of this scurrilous assertion
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Seriously
Carrot Cake is the best
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 23, 2011 4:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I like cake.
I do not like carrot cake.
Therefore, carrot cake is not a real cake.
Q.E.D.
:-)
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
by RoarFrom112 on Nov 23, 2011 4:04 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, since you put it that way...
LOOK HOW WRONG YOU ARE
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Carrot cake is acceptable
….as long as it comes with vanilla ice cream
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 4:09 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That's what the Cherpumplecan needs!
Ice cream. Probably neapolitan…
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
Ewww strawberry
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 4:13 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah. Just keeping with the theme...
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
But carrot cake is basically the ONLY kind of cake I like!
…. oh, that makes your point for you. Feh.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 23, 2011 8:08 PM MST up reply actions
Reccin' dis...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 23, 2011 8:49 PM MST up reply actions
Ohhhh you make a good argument!
Definitely needs the pecan layer
and some peas and carrots.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I'll see your Cherpumplecan and raise you this...
http://www.hulu.com/watch/1447/saturday-night-live-taco-town
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
pepperoni pizza? NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL A TACO.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 23, 2011 5:31 PM MST up reply actions
JFK's Quote of the Day:
“If I had one wish in the world today, it would be that Jackie Robinson could be here to see this happen.” Source: 1974 Press Conference (On being the first black manager) ~Frank Robinson
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
In light of MLB's labor lovefest, here's a quote worth remembering:
“We have nothing to fear but Fehr himself.”
- Jerry Reinsdorf
by Northsider1964 on Nov 23, 2011 7:42 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow.. I never thought i would see such negative
reaction to cap on the draft amount…
I don’t understand the logic that this will send players to other sports.. NFL first round players are making 40 M less than what they made last year (and that is 66% pay cut)… Did anyone jump on NFL’s bandwagon to say that NFL will loose players?
Rob Neyer had a excellent point regarding the cap..Agent will hold out as long as they know that theere is leverage.. when there is no leverage and none of the teams can go over the cap, which agent would recommend holding out? Are you going to hold out for 1 M more salary knowing that next year you may end up getting the same offer ..
Not holding out, per se -- taking their ball and playing another sport, rathe.
Being the BMOC as a college FB player is quite an allure for many. I didn’t say that baseball would lose a lot of talent because of this…but I do think that any talent drain (given the way that the top athletes are most often picking football/basketball) is going to be a problem for the long-term viability of the league.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on Nov 23, 2011 10:53 PM MST up reply actions
My uninformed view is that in a year or two the expectations involved with drafting bonuses will have changed
So they fit in with the new system. Elite baseball talents will just have to deal with getting less money, but with a few multi-sport exceptions, any negative side effects will likely be marginal.
If college baseball does see a boost from more players opting to go to college, I suspect this will have as yet undiscussed positive effects long into the future.
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
That's certainly a major piece of it...
college baseball doesn’t have the best track record with young pitchers…and major league teams would definitely prefer to develop these players on their own
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on Nov 24, 2011 10:15 AM MST up reply actions
Perhaps there'd be closer ties between colleges and MLB teams?
Perhaps the coaches would appreciate that instead of having the squeeze out every last drop of value from the few talents they can hang on to, they can become part of a more holistic training experience for the players.
There may be rules about this kind of thing, but it seems that optimistically it could be a win/win situation to an extent.
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
Could this give a little bump in draft value of a pitcher over a position player, if both are coming out of high school?
My reasoning would be that MLB teams might be inclined to overreach for a P to avoid them potentially being burned up in college?
by MileHighHawkeye on Nov 24, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
Wow, you guys take your holidays seriously!
Not a single post on the whole site since I last checked. Do you all have lies-in on Thanksgiving? I would.
However, I would also end up here when family stuff palls, making borderline-acceptable rude jokes and comments after several glasses of wine and port. Maybe that’s still to come :)
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
I was waiting for the new RP to post
as I have my quote of the day
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Thanksgiving is the biggest holiday of the year.
It’s the only one that everyone celebrates and most people are off from work, or at least don’t work until the evening.
I am spending part of the day watching the first season of Downton Abbey because I have a friend hooking me up with the second season before it gets to the states.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 24, 2011 10:53 AM MST up reply actions
I wish we had something like Thanksgiving
I guess in a zero-sum universe, we Brits should spend today flagellating ourselves and shaking our fists westwards. Hang on, I’m thinking of 4th July.
Also, excellent re Downton! How far have you got? Series 1 really is a corker.
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
We finished the "changes" episode, which I think is #4.
It’s the one in which Sybil wears the pants at the end. Watching the interactions between the characters when I know what is going to happen is interesting. It shows how good the acting is.
The biggest thing I don’t get is why Thomas is so evil. It still doesn’t make sense and it isn’t really explained. The earlier actions and those toward Bates would be driven be his ambition for a higher place. But some of the other stuff, like that with William, is just odd. I was hoping that it would make more sense the second time around. It still doesn’t. It’s the biggest weakness of the show.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 24, 2011 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
I can't remember at which point you discover the... thing about Thomas
If you haven’t, then I won’t spoil it!
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
Well, I saw the whole first series already.
He’s gay. But I don’t get how that explains that he’s an evil bastard. If it’s a second series thing, don’t tell me.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 24, 2011 11:26 AM MST up reply actions
It doesn't, but the opinion I heard
Suggests that his need to repress it, combined with the brutality and risk of rejection (see: Mr Pamuk), might have made him a bitter, fearful man and turned him into someone who can only enjoy the misery of others.
Or, he might just be a dick.
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
That's my reading as well,
but I think the story goes too far with that angle. It might explain his harshness in dealing with Bates, but not all of his seeming pure evil. Anyway, I’m looking forward to the second series. I was always fascinated with WW1.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 24, 2011 11:41 AM MST up reply actions
Compare and contrast with the only other gay regular
I hope that’s intriguing rather than spoiling, as you won’t find out who it is until well into the next series :)
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
You should watch "The Black Adder" it is a facisnating look
at trench life in WWI
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
And most of the Pilgrims were the crazies that you got rid of,
so you should be celebrating as well.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 24, 2011 11:19 AM MST up reply actions
I'm working
because a lot of people are “thankful” that golf courses are open today. :-(
Happy Thanksgiving everyone
by MileHighHawkeye on Nov 24, 2011 11:25 AM MST up reply actions

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