Sunday Rockpile: Street and Stewart could be next to go, Pacheco prepares for opportunity
After offering a thought on the Boston managerial hunt, Troy Renck writes that the Rockies continue to dangle Huston Street and Ian Stewart in trade talks. An East Coast news source had mentioned during the ownership meetings earlier in the month that the Rockies were looking at position players in exchange for Street, but Renck states that the Rockies' focus is still on starting pitching. The Toronto Blue Jays and Baltimore Orioles are among a handful of teams that have expressed interest in Street, and it seems very likely at this point that the Rockies will move him at some point this winter. Stewart, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be drawing much interest to date if the hot stove rumor mill is any indication, but that may change as the off-season progresses and teams find their third base needs remain unfilled.
Renck put up a blog post about Jordan Pacheco's recent past and near future with the Rockies, while Pacheco's present sees him running up and down hills in the Albuquerque area as part of his off-season workout program. I like what I see of Pacheco on the field, and what I read about him off of it, but not what I see of him to date in box-scores and advanced statistics. Rockies fans seem to be a little too enthusiastic for the player given his production to date, and much like Jonathan Herrera a year ago, much of that may have to do with a kismet in the times that Pacheco has produced at the plate coming in important, runners-in-scoring-position situations. While nothing's set in stone, Ty Wigginton's departure does clear a path for a right-handed reserve for first and third for the Rockies, Pacheco will need to use this opportunity to show that his pretty swing can win out over his less than stellar minor league track record.
In the slow stretches of the off season, Google news searches for Rockpile posts sometimes reveal interesting results that I wouldn't necessarily get to or point out during the regular season. One such case would be this little historical tidbit from the Casa Grande Dispatch, which has a 2006 quote from a developer about how the Rockies "played" the community thirteen years before when the team apparently decided not to move their Spring Training facilities there.
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that's awfully cruel to a quite good pitcher
And possibly the best closer this organization has seen, though Fuentes probably wins out there
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 8:34 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
LMAO
Guess you haven’t seen that nut-case T-Sip in action after Games when he totally demolishes the inside of his vehicle. What his Dad did in ‘69 is enough to hate him, if you’d even remember that… lol
...what?
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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by papality on Nov 27, 2011 11:34 AM MST up reply actions 3 recs
This is my first post since registering, so hi to all
I appreciate your comment here, as I think there have been a lot of nasty things said about Street which he does not deserve (actually, I don’t like to these kind of remarks about any of our players). Prior to his going on the DL, his conversion rate for saves was among the highest (over 90%), and after his return, he posted a 0 ERA before having one pretty dismal inning. Personally, I’d hate to see him go, but whether or not someone is in favor of trading him or not, let’s not be mean. Anyway, since my husband has been on PR for a long time, I’ve been a lurker and feel I know a lot of you – looking forward to participating.
"There's no crying in baseball" - Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own"
"Ninety percent of this game is mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra
"We made too many wrong mistakes" - Yogi Berra (again)
"I believe there is a universal truth to the process of doing things right."
- Huston Street
"Jim Tracy is not my HomeBoy" - me
by purpleJerseygirl on Nov 27, 2011 8:49 AM MST up reply actions
Welcome to the site!
Huston is one of my favorite players to watch before a game. He’s a good teammate and takes care of the players around him.
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by Charlie77 on Nov 27, 2011 9:25 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Welcome to PR
What you state here is why ERA and Wins/Saves cannot be used exclusively for relief pitcher evaluation. I too think Street is a serviceable pitcher (closer or otherwise) but last year it seemed as though his pitches moved too much and often times back to the middle of the plate where they would be hit hard. If he can re-figure out his release point and keep the ball moving he could be really good again.
Nice sig by the way.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
While this is true
I suppose commenters are trying to sour themselves more than normal to Street. Or something. The tone toward Street has definitely gone from “I wouldn’t mind Street going in a good deal” to “You mean someone will actually give up VALUE for the worst player in Rockies franchise history? We should be content with only eating a PART of his $84M salary!”
Ok that’s a bit of an over exaggeration. But the general mood toward the man has certainly soured since he was pegged as a trade candidate.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 10:12 AM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
I have seen it also
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Thanks
I appreciate the nice welcome from everyone.
"There's no crying in baseball" - Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own"
"Ninety percent of this game is mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra
"We made too many wrong mistakes" - Yogi Berra (again)
"I believe there is a universal truth to the process of doing things right."
- Huston Street
"Jim Tracy is not my HomeBoy" - me
by purpleJerseygirl on Nov 27, 2011 8:19 PM MST up reply actions
I agree, Street's undervalued by a lot of users here and Rockies fans,
but I think you’ve got to take comments that indicate collegiate rival bias with a grain of salt, as at least nt-eagle shows from the git-go that he’s not going to be neutral when it comes to Longhorns.
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You can find that in her profile if you're interested
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 7:54 PM MST up reply actions
You're right - it's on my profile
But I’ll make it easy – Roxman
"There's no crying in baseball" - Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own"
"Ninety percent of this game is mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra
"We made too many wrong mistakes" - Yogi Berra (again)
"I believe there is a universal truth to the process of doing things right."
- Huston Street
"Jim Tracy is not my HomeBoy" - me
by purpleJerseygirl on Nov 27, 2011 8:15 PM MST up reply actions
Oh wow, hello there and welcome.
I love your name, avatar, and sig and agree with this comment x1000.
I thought 2011 sucked pretty bad. I have nothing to add to that.
by prettyinpurple on Nov 27, 2011 9:56 PM MST up reply actions
Hello to you too
It’s great to “meet” you. Good luck in college. BTW, you are an excellent writer. Don’t quit writing your longer posts. They’re great.
"There's no crying in baseball" - Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own"
"Ninety percent of this game is mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra
"We made too many wrong mistakes" - Yogi Berra (again)
"I believe there is a universal truth to the process of doing things right."
- Huston Street
"Jim Tracy is not my HomeBoy" - me
by purpleJerseygirl on Nov 27, 2011 11:56 PM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Why thank you.
I thought 2011 sucked pretty bad. I have nothing to add to that.
by prettyinpurple on Nov 28, 2011 12:03 AM MST up reply actions
One other interesting note
In that Renck line this morning, EY2 has been sent home from Venezuela for tardiness. I have never been a fan of him at any position in the field and cringe every time he leads off from first knowing there is a 50/50 chance he is either picked off or steals second. Can we know acknowledge he needs to be traded away?
And why isn’t Pacheco given more reps at second when he has played there the majority of his professional career? Was he just that bad there?
Young was successful on 27 out of 31 SB attempts this past season and only picked off twice.
I haven’t done the math yet, but it seems that may be just a teensy bit better than 50/50. Second, this is the first report I’ve ever read anywhere that indicates any sort of a motivation problem, compared to several that are glowing about his work ethic. That said, you’re right that he remains a defensive liability wherever he’s been positioned, and losing the work at second the winter league would have given him does nothing to help in that regard. I’m still not sure if this is a sell high opportunity or if he’ll continue to be about as useful as he was this past season, I guess it would depend on what the return was. At a minimum salary, however, it doesn’t seem prudent to send him packing without something to show for it.
Pacheco has not played the majority of his professional career at 2B
It’s what he was drafted as, but he was quickly moved to catcher due to defensive issues.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 8:36 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
after his first go around in the bigs
I think he calmed down and has been much better at stealing bases. Early on though it looked like he was trying way too hard…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
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from a rotographs article:
To get an idea of how often he attempted to steal, I took the number of stolen base attempts (SB+CS) divided by the number of times he was on first (BB+1B+HBP). Not every time a player is on first do they actually have an opportunity to steal, but this combination does give a general idea of the number of chances vs. attempts. Here are the top players from 2011 (min 300 PA):
Rajai Davis = 70%
Jason Bourgeois = 54%
Dee Gordon = 48%
Eric Young = 44%
it may have been about rajai davis, but we can still see that EY2 was essentially the 4th best basestealer in MLB last year with 300+ PAs
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 27, 2011 8:02 AM MST via iPhone app reply actions
disappointed Rox girl
I’ve been waiting for your CBA article
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 8:36 AM MST via mobile reply actions
I think I'm going to have to make a separate post for that.
I’ve started working on it. The common line of this being worse for small market teams than the last CBA just doesn’t make much sense logically to me.
I have a sneaking suspicion that whatever stance I take, you'll diametrically oppose...
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
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Not a fan of the CBA; but at least we don't have a lockout.
I’m more peeved about another useless wild card, and Houston getting shafted, and interleague everyday!
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I think it's awesome
#groupthink
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 7:54 PM MST up reply actions
No, this was something I was thinking about shortly after the CBA came out
and several of the authors to the links you brought up on Wednesday made their opinions known. The reaction seemed to focus wrongly on competitive balance, seeing issues that really won’t have the impact that they are feared to and not enough focus on the tightening of a central MLB monopoly that threatens our flow of information and could impact bloggers like us eventually.
Street and Stewart
I like Street.
Closers are a finicky bunch, there’s a reason long term contracts with closers don’t usually work out. One year they are great, the next they hit a rough patch. It was only a year ago that Papelbon was thought to be in danger of losing his job, one season later and he receives a mammoth contract. It’s hard to know what to expect from a closer one season to the next.
Obviously Street is not on Papelbon’s level but he is a good closer. He’s hit rough patches before in his career and rebounded so I got hope he could do the same again. I still think he’s the best closer on the team, Betancourt did a great job last year but I am hesitant to throw my trust into him based on half a years work on a non-contending team and Brothers is young and has yet to prove and earn it.
That said, I would fully be behind a Street trade. In a market where closers like Ryan Madsen are looking for contracts at ridiculous salaries for too many years, Street at one season and $8 million (buyout included) is a reasonable deal in this market for a solid, proven closer. Personally, I would MUCH rather have Street on his deal than say, Madsen for 4 years at that salary or higher. Maybe that’s just me though.
If the Rockies could net either Jeremy Guthrie or Jeff Neimann for Street I would be happy with that. Neimann preferred over Guthrie due to contract situation.
As for Ian Stewart, he’s got to be at his lowest value at this point. I really want the Rockies to give him one more shot because if he can recover from last season then the Rockies have their solution at 3b. If not, then I don’t think they lose much as they probably aren’t getting anything of much value back for him at this point.
And I don’t want to see Nelson or Pacheco as starters, platoon or otherwise.
Welcome to Purple Row
Great first post and I can’t wait to hear more from you.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
agreed on all points
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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I agree, and I'd add Nolasco to that pair of starters you mention,
but Pavano keeps on getting brought up and that’s where it’s a little trickier for me. This would be the one case where I’d be somewhat okay with Pavano, as it’s a better use of that salary than with a set-up reliever, but that’s a lesser of two evils argument and there are still even better uses. I’d rather just trade Street and his salary for minor leaguers at that point and sign a free agent.
Nolasco
I’d be fine with Nolasco as well but he kinda scares me with his streakiness. When he’s on his stuff is the best of the mentioned names, but when he’s off he’s dangerous.
Personally, trading for Pavano would be a downer for me. One year left on his deal and least upside of the bunch. I’d also go for minor leaguers over him, but I differ in that I would not trade Street just as a salary dump. I still value him.
I don't envision it as a salary dump, more like a reallocation of the money to more necessary areas
I too think Street’s valuable, just given the presence of Betancourt and Brothers, there might be more valuable players out there for the Rockies at different positions at the same salary level. The point where I don’t feel trading Street would be in the best interest of the team is where the player return doesn’t add up.
So you would rather have a marginal starter..
Than a quality reliever to backup our inexperienced rotation?
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by Charlie77 on Nov 27, 2011 11:29 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
salary
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
Marginal Starters
I think we have different definitions for what constitutes a marginal starter.
I think the discussed SP’s are solid, middle of the rotation guys capable of pitching games that give their teams a chance to win. They eat up innings while displaying the ability to maintain respectable WHIP’S an ERA’s. Nolasco is the riskiest of the bunch but probably has the most talent, imo, so I’d be cool with the gamble.
Granted, they would probably pitch higher in the rotation than you’d ideally want but that is a reflection on the state of our staff, which shouldn’t be held against them. To me, these guys are worth the risk of trading Street.
please stick around
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by Muzia on Nov 27, 2011 12:16 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
it can kind of even out
if we get a #3 starter who could pitch 200 innings it reduces the load on the bullpen to a degree.
Additionally, if we could rebuild Stewart’s value at all, we can deal him for a reliever (to an org that has an abundance) and pretty much replace Street.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
very good first post
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 10:17 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Betancourt and Brothers
I agree with your comments concerning these two pitchers. Betancourt has been a solid set-up man, but as all relievers, has had his bad patches, too. In the past, he has not been comfortable in the ninth, and as you mentioned, this recent surge has been in a pretty low pressure scenario. He may come out of the box lights out as a closer, but we’ll have to see. I agree that Brothers needs more seasoning. One thing I found to be interesting at the end of 2011 was that while so many of Tracy’s decisions were met with a lot of skepticism (rightly so, imo), there seemed to be none surrounding his Betancourt/Street switch while Street was on the 15-day DL. Just an observation.
"There's no crying in baseball" - Tom Hanks in "A League of Their Own"
"Ninety percent of this game is mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra
"We made too many wrong mistakes" - Yogi Berra (again)
"I believe there is a universal truth to the process of doing things right."
- Huston Street
"Jim Tracy is not my HomeBoy" - me
by purpleJerseygirl on Nov 27, 2011 11:03 AM MST up reply actions
niemann for street would be awesome
but we’d probably have to pay at least half his salary for tampa to take him…
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
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“Managers don’t have as much leverage as they used to have. We can’t really be the boss. If I say to a veteran player, ‘If you don’t perform, you may be sent back to the minors, they look at me and say, ‘Who are you kidding? I’m not going anyplace. I’ve already had three years in the major leagues and you can’t send me back to the minor leagues without my ok.’” Source: Washingtonian (August 1989) ~Frank Robinson
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
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JFK
The Pacheco love IS misguided...
Guy hits .270’s in AAA last season, doesn’t have a lot of pop, and is an absolute statue playing the corner infield. Yet there are those who are enthusiastically hyping his arrival as Wiggy’s replacement? I don’t get it. Yes, I disliked Wiggy as much as anyone here, but I can see that Pacheco is no upgrade and not MLB-quality, especially on D.
he's probably
a defensive upgrade over Wigginton – and if that’s the role he’ll be asked to fill then that’s fine. He also can catch which expands our bench in the sense that CDI can pinch hit for us on days he’s not starting (and the same applies to Rosario if/when he makes the team).
I do think Pacheco has been a bit overhyped but I don’t think it makes sense to say that because he hit .270 in one season he’s just fodder when he consistently hit .321 or higher the previous two years.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
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A .303 career batter in the minors....
is not all that impressive when you consider that Pacheco gathered a lot of his stats playing for Modesto at age 24, and Asheville at age 23. That’s old for A-ball (high or low). His SLG was .426 in the minors, again showing why he’s not an MLB-quality bat for a corner infield role that might require any sort of playing time. At least Wiggy showed an ability to slug at a .450 clip in the majors BEFORE we got him.
As for his defense, let’s just say it’s “unproven” at either 3rd or 1st, and while he could end up better than Wiggy at 3rd, he could also end up worse, as horrible as that would be to imagine. I did see him botch three straight groundballs that were almost right to him in one inning in September. Seemed he couldn’t lean over to grab one ball hit three feet to his left. That’s why I call him a statue there. Could he get better at 3rd? Sure, but his limited inning exposure at the position in his minor league career indicates that his coaches didn’t think of him that way, and the devlopmental guys made him play catcher the most.
In short, I’m as excited about the prospect of Pacheco landing a major bench role for the team as I was when they gave the opening day starting 2B job to Jayson Nix a few years back. And I suspect the results will be similar.
I think the hope is that
as a backup he can be pretty handy, particularly if his high-contact, higher BABIP ways can translate. He could be a pretty useful and cheap guy to have around.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
I agree with the cheap part of your comment...
As for the rest, we’ll just have to wait and see.
I love when people discount all the good seasons..
And then use the one bad one as defense to prove he’s not a good player. How about in AAA his BABIP was 30 points lower than his minor league average? He shows a consistent ability to avoid Ks and put the ball in play. This guy is built too so we’re not talking about 150lb Johnny Scrappy. Slugging develops as players get comfortable at the plate, look at Dex and once he approached 1,500 PAs as an example.
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by Charlie77 on Nov 27, 2011 1:41 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Your ignoring the fact that
He was 2 years older then his respective players his whole minor league career. I honestly think that 2011 is a better reflection of his tools.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Neifi Perez had great contact skills too...
How good a hitter was he? At least Neifi could play utility in the majors for a few years after he was our shortstop, due to good defense.
this is a ridiculous angle to take
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
If he's going to compare Jordan to Neifi then I'm comparing him to Mickey Mantle
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by Charlie77 on Nov 27, 2011 4:28 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
The Mick was light hitting shortstop when he first came up
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by Charlie77 on Nov 27, 2011 4:29 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
daric barton slugged .405 in 2010
and provided 5 WAR, 6th in MLB and only .1 behind adrian gonzalez. the idea that corner infielders need to be sluggers is a myth
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
6th among first basemen, i should say
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
career .377 OBP in the minors
only one player on the team bested that mark last year
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
can't really compare minor league stats to mlb stats though
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 12:56 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, Jordan could get on base....
in the low minors (mainly A ball) at ages 23 and 24. So what?
you see no value in that at all?
what about his K/BB? even last year, when he hit “only .270” he OBPed .343
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
Yes, I think compared to Stewart...
Pacheco can do better with his AVG and OBP. His defense and SLG will be inadequate though, and would hurt his team with any extended exposure in the field.
The first thing you need to know in handing a major infield role to a player is “can he field his position”? The answer is doubtful in Pacheco’s case.
Every college player is going to be older than his initial MiLB competition
unless they start at AA or higher (very very few do).
Your argument seems to extend to saying that no college player can ever be considered any good, because they are older than low MiLB competition.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Nov 27, 2011 2:24 PM MST up reply actions
I agree
I haven’t seen anything to suggest he’s anything but a utility guy. And given how little power he has displayed he has no value to me as a backup 1B.
I think it is a symptom of the historically horribad 2B and 3B position we have had
Pacheco isn’t the first infielder to go from afterthought to potential savior in the eyes of Rockies fans everywhere with a mediocre at best MLB debut. Nelson, EYJr, Nix and Herrera all followed that path. We as fans are just desperate to finally find something useful. Pacheco didn’t even rank as highly as Nelson or EYJr in PuRPs lists, but his unique contact ability is a breath of fresh air, so the hope is heightened. I’ll write off the season if he’s a regular 3B though. He isn’t the type of prospect you make room for. He’s a nice piece to have though
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 12:55 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
It's pretty sad to think that...
Pacheco could be the answer to any legit MLB team’s need for a utility player. I wouldn’t even call him a “nice piece to have”. I’d call him a “piece”, or maybe a “warm body”. That’s it.
Wow.
Premature much?
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 27, 2011 1:04 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, those handing Pacheco the job....
and hyping him at all are way premature.
wigginton is gone and stewart is being shopped
pacheco HAS been handed the job
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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of utility guy?
Eh, not really a big deal.
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You are, of course, right....
that it’s “not really a big deal”…..if we don’t plan on contending.
contenders are not made and unmade by their utility men
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I suspect the Phillies will continue to contend
And lookit who their new utility guy is…
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
Name the main utility guy for any of the playoff teams last year.
It’s really, really, really not a big deal.
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It's only not a big deal IF...
the team has an established regular well ahead of the utility guy on the depth chart who gets 150 starts. As long as Pacheco logs 100 innings or less at 3rd base, he can’t do much damage. If he were to start there for 80 games or more, we’ve got a BIG problem.
I feel like somewhere along the way you’re conflating Pacheco being an affordable and versatile utility guy who has some major warts but a mature, contact-heavy hitting approach with Pacheco being expected to garner 500 at-bats between 2b and 3b.
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Craig Counsell
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"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Allen Craig, Micheal Young....
Granted those are good players that did not have a regular place to play. I think Pacheco fits my Dave Magadan analogy
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Can you imagine a team making the playoffs with players like Jeff Baker or Garrett Atkins coming off of the bench?
Well… Baker was a passable 3B…
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 1:26 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Good to see you, wolf...
Too bad about that Scoreboard forum.
I don't know....
but I kind of miss their commentary already.
How do you know Arenado isn't being...
given the opportunity to take it in Spring Training? How do you know we won’t sign or trade for another veteran player who can play the hot corner? Fact is, nobody knows how good or bad Pacheco could be, and to hand him the job is to raise the white flag of surrender before the season starts.
If that’d DOD’s plan, I say “good luck with that” and “I hope his resume is updated”.
as much as we all love arenado
giving someone with literally no experience above A ball, no matter how well they did there, a starting MLB job is a mistake, and one that will not be made
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I don't disagree with that....
but to be consistent, you have to also admit it would be a mistake to “HAND” the job to Pacheco as you earlier stated. Talk about “uproven” or lacking “experience” at a position…
pacheco has played in AA, AAA, and MLB
arenado has not
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.
This guy Never played in AA, and had a grand total of 14 AB’s as a 20 year old before making it to the big leagues also…..
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=pujols001jos
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he's also a first-ballot hall of famer and one of the top 3 right-handed hitters of all time
not seeing the comp
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I'm saying
if Arenado tears it up in Spring Training, there is no reason not to give him the job, given the other options we have.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
expansion of Super Two status is a major factor in that decision.
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and scott boras being his agent
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Monfort baseball
Lets play Herrera and Pacheco at 3rd base, to not start the Arbitration clock on the next Tulo….
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Agreed that's the mindset...
but if we don’t make other moves to contend, the argument could be made NOT to rush Arenado to the majors.
Please.
Every single team in baseball does the same exact thing with their top prospects.
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I'm much more comfortable with delaying
Arenado for the first two to three months of 2011 when our team is attempting to understand where Pomeranz and White fit in, what Hammel’s deal is, and how Nicasio and JDLR are faring during their recoveries, and getting an extra year of Nolan out of it.
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I am concerned about starting the clock..
on Arenado too soon, and would rather have control of his age 27 season than his age 21 season. That said, if O’Dowd does his job and filld our other holes decently this offseason, I have no problem with Arenado winning the 3B job in Spring Training. If it looks like we aren’t serious contenders, though, leave him in the minors no matter what and preserve the clock.
I disagree
These are Tulo and Cargo’s Prime years, and Helton’s last few shots.
You put the best team you can on the field regardless of if you start the Clock.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I agree with that comment...
but am skeptical that DOD will make the personnel moves to contend. If he doesn’t, he may as well waive that white flag, annoint Pacheco the starter, and start looking for another job.
yea, that makes a TON of sense
..
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 27, 2011 2:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
What do you disagree with?
Outside of the Post and a few places around here, Pacheco’s ceiling is that of a bench player. It certainly would be a bad sign if such a player was placed as a starter as a rookie. And whether you agree or not, O’Dowd hasn’t made aggressive offseason moves for a long time, so skepticism is pretty natural.
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 7:57 PM MST up reply actions
That O'Dowd isn't going to make the necessary moves to contend.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 27, 2011 8:30 PM MST up reply actions
Frankly, I'm not all that sure he SHOULD this offseason
This rotation isn’t playoff caliber. I wouldn’t mind moves targeted for 2013
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 28, 2011 6:40 AM MST up reply actions
The UTILITY job.
My goodness people.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 27, 2011 1:22 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Counter Point
Jim Tracy is the manager. Utility guys get a lot more playing time then they should, and given the black hole of suck at 2b and 3b this year, I’m pretty sure Pacheco will get his fair share of AB’s as a “utility” guy.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Hahaha you guys make me laugh sometimes.
What is suddenly so wrong with Jordan Pacheco that has all these haters sprouting up? I’m confused.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 27, 2011 1:29 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
i share your confusion
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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Nothing is wrong with him
We think that some people get overly attached to marginal players like Herrera and Pacheco, and aren’t objective enough to look at the collective body of work and realize they aren’t major league starting caliber type players.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
and neither one of them is likely to be a regular major league starter
even with our lack of an established starter.
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But like Herrera last year
Pacheco will get his fair share of AB’s and I’m afraid the results might be around the same, without the glove to help him.
I’m cheering for the guy, but he has never been a top prospect in this system, and he has always played at levels he was about 2 years to old for the competition.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I'm not saying Pacheco is any long term answer, either
there’s a lot to be concerned about with him getting regular playing time. But I do know he has a good contact tool, and that happens to be exactly what this team has needed the past couple of seasons. His ceiling is fairly low, but the type of skill he brings makes him a good utility fit for 2012.
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I won't disagree
as long as he can prove 2 things:
1) He can handle himself with a glove
2) The Solid contact skill isn’t a product of being to old for his league.
I think these are 2 huge questions that a lot of people are ignoring. Given his 2011 Season in the Hitters Paradise known as Colorado Springs, I’m a bit concerned.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
scouting reports on Pacheco have regularly said MLB-ready bat
the glove is an issue for sure, but the bat should play above replacement in the majors.
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Maybe MLB ready, for a CATCHER...
but doubtful for a corner infielder.
for a utility guy, he's great
I’m not discussing him as anything but.
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NL 3B hit .257/.317/.387
i think pacheco can beat that
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That's freaking horrible.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 27, 2011 2:05 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
What if you take out Ian Stewart?
.270/.340/.400, right?
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My blerg
I laughed
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 4:10 PM MST up reply actions
he had an 89% contact rate in his 21 games in september
would be tied with pagan for 12th in MLB
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if plate discipline splits existed for the minors
it’d be at least that high, and you know it.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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And yes, contact has never been an issue with Pacheco. Even with his bad 2011 AAA season, he still made excellent contact.
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boom.
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very SSS
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OTOH,
This discussion has already seen 3 ground balls cited as the basis for declaring him unusable defensively, so SSS may be out the window…
Seriously, SSS is going to be an issue judging any September call-up, obviously. To me, I saw enough to think he’s worth a look for a utility spot. He’s not a starting 3B unless we’re really desperate. Which we kind of appear to be at this point.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Nov 27, 2011 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
I think part of the issue is
that people are simultaneously saying that Pacheco really shouldn’t be given many ab’s and be a strict utility guy while also saying ‘we need to see how he handles himself with the glove’ or ‘see how he rebounds against ML pitching after a poor 2011 in AAA’
The only way the latter part of this is going to happen is if he gets at-bats, and given how much of a mess our rotation is, early 2012 will (hopefully) be the best time we have as a club to get a handle on exactly what Pacheco’s potential is and where he fits in with the club.
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It's a little early to objectively say
that he can or can not be a major league caliber starting player.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Nov 27, 2011 2:28 PM MST up reply actions
In Tracy's system...
the utility job is likely to get 300 ABs minimum in 2012. That’s why it shouldn’t be scoffed at and downplayed.
yuni betancourt had nearly 600 PAs for the 2011 brewers
we’ll be fine
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The Brewers had 2 solid Ace's at the top of the Rotation
and the MVP, as well as Fielder, in a weak NL Central…
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
those are all arguments in favor of not freaking out about pacheco
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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I disagree
Brewers had good rotation and a great lineup up to mask Betancourt’s lack of production. Rockies rotation has its questions and its lineup is not nearly as good. Don’t forget that at this time 2B is a black hole too.
and still lost in the playoffs
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
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Utility Guys
Agreed with everyone who values the role of the utility player.
Moving beyond just Pacheco, the idea of having Pacheco, Nelson, and Herrera all on the MLB roster is a losing proposition for a team. They’re too redundant to each other. The idea that 2 of the 3 could potentially be in the starting lineup together (2B and 3B) is frightening. At least to me.
And I agree 100%, Arrenado is not the answer to anything until he shows us he is. I like him, have faith in his potential, but prefer to not expect overnight success in the majors from him.
The Pacheco argument is ridiculous
There seems to be a couple posters today who are just bored and stirring things up. For goodness sake.
Yes, his ML record is a SSS, but that’s all we have to go on. And during that SSS, he was, after Tulo, Cargo, and Dex, the hardest out on the team. And he produced runs at a 100 RBI pace on a really really bad offensive team. And his defense was quite decent at 3B despite 2011 being the first year he ever played consistently there (which is absolutely remarkable, IMO). And to “punish” him because he stayed in college and didn’t enter pro ball until he was 22 or whatever, well, that’s the most ridiculous of all. Come on!
And most of all, we have a much better player (theoretically) on his way, so the most Pacheco will see at 3B is one year’s worth of games.
Seriously, one bad year at AAA and the fact that he went to college … that’s why we’re dismissing him? That’s kind of like my little sister liking players because their name is “cute.”
All i know about Pacheco, once you get past the SSS, is that professional baseball people who watch him approach hitting say he will almost certainly be a solid ML hitter. You watch enough guys try and hit a baseball, and you recognize instinctually when a guy has “it.” Pacheco, at least at the plate, has “it.”
Can we talk about something else?
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 3:52 PM MST reply actions
While I'm completely behind you
We’ve all been guilty of grinding axes here and there. There’s plenty of reason to have pause about Pacheco, but there’s a lot of definitive statements being made about the guy with roughly nothing to go on.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 4:18 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not grinding an axe on pacheco...
I’d rather try to develope him than waste anymore time and resources on Ian Stewart whom I have a double bearded halbred to weild after. I think he can be a preimere pinch hitter given enough exposure now. If he shows a penchant for getting solid contact when it counts; I’ll forgive his glove while I await Arenado. I’ll take him at 3b as a stop gap and work him a lot a 1b to backup Todd.
Bottom line isI think we are really waving the white flag if Stew starts the season at third. He is a failed project who will not develope further because he will not learn what he needs to to defend himself at the plate. Pacheco still has some upside for me even if his potential ceiling is lower. Stewart is not going to find that potential in a Rockies uniform because he’s not listening to the voices around him here.
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what do you think about headley?
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I rather have him; but if San Diego won't give him up then I'll take the time to see what I have in Pacheco.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
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I don't think he's ever talked about Headley before
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 10:15 PM MST up reply actions
Headley Lamarr?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Nov 27, 2011 10:18 PM MST up reply actions
That's Hedy.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 10:34 PM MST up reply actions
like a poorly poured beer?
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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It seems both sides seem to be missing the rather obvious elephant in the room that the other sees.
Neither seems to be aware that there are two elephants, the first is that Pacheco’s a very skilled hitter, and the second is that he hasn’t been a particularly productive one as a pro all told. It isn’t punishing him for being delayed on his professional entry, but we are for not producing at a level hitters at his age and supposed skill level should. At the same time, though, like you say he’s a very mechanically sound hitter and I’m really at a loss as to why he hasn’t been that impressive since being drafted. It’s not like a slap hitting Jonathan Herrera last season where you’re just hoping that the player has discovered some mystical method of placing his slaps just out of reach, Pacheco actually has sufficient offensive tools.
I dunno. His numbers before the Springs were pretty good.
No, they weren’t Arenado good. And yes, there are other hitters in MiLB that have better numbers (very few in our organization, however). But they were solid. And remember, he’s done that while learning to be a catcher! The toughest position on the field and one he didn’t play in college. I’m surprised he remembered what a bat is for at all with all that going on!
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 5:48 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, that's all true, that's why nobody should write him off,
but he’s lackluster by any standard in levels that he should have excelled at given his skills. Again, you can’t just write that fact off, either. Pacheco still has a ton to prove.
rays just sent john jaso to seattle...
iannetta for niemann/ rosario for shields, anybody?
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Huh. That is very very interesting.
There’s nobody outside Ramon Hernandez available in FA, and he’s a really bad defensive catcher who’s going to be overpaid. Can’t imagine the Rays wanting him. No way they’re re-signing Shoppach. That leaves them with exactly zero catchers, and (from what I’ve heard) nothing ML ready in the system.
They HAVE to be about to trade for a catcher. Absolutely have to. And I’d do Rosario for either of those SP’s you mention.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 5:52 PM MST up reply actions
Nope, My bad. Forgot they signed Jose Molina.
So likely they’re going with Molina and a kid they pick up from the scrap-heap somewhere.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 5:56 PM MST up reply actions
if they need a proven starter, why would they trade a top flight starter for Rosario?
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well the list of individual players that shields gets moved for straight-up is about 3 names long
but we could certainly build something around rosario. iannetta is obviously a different subject
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$$$$$$$
They’re always looking for a cheap alternative. Shields makes a lot and they have SP’s lined up in the minors like flights over O’Hare. NIemann doesn’t yet, but will soon. Depends on how they rate their guys. I have a feeling Shields may be a risk for regression, and the Rays normally are pretty smart about timing their trades. But I agree, if they decide to trade him, they can get more than Rosario.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 6:09 PM MST up reply actions
price may actually be the better choice for them to trade
but i don’t think friedman realizes that yet….
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Yeah, he's definitely gone as soon as he can
But IIRC they still have him for a couple years, and they have a real chance to win a WS in that time. Sure, they’d get a king’s ransom for him, but aces are hard to find even for a team with a system like they have.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 6:24 PM MST up reply actions
Shields
I wonder how Colorado’s pursuit of Shields last season affects a potential pursuit this off season. They ended up passing on him last season and now he’s coming off a fantastic rebound year. The cost has to have gone way up, especially as you consider how many teams are in the market for SP and the dearth of quality pitchers out there. TB is going to be asking for the moon for him and probably come close to getting it as he’s young, good, and affordable.
Didn't know the Rox were seriously pursuing him ...
To the extent of passing on a proposed trade? Did that really happen?
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 6:25 PM MST up reply actions
RE: Shields
I don’t know how far they got with their pursuit. Publicly, it seemed they chose to re-sign De La Rosa and that ended the Shields pursuit. But who knows what went on behind close doors; I’d guess even if there wasn’t any formal offers presented the Rockies probably had an idea of the kind of package TB was looking for.
I think the Shields pursuit ended because Friedman realized Shields was worth keeping
While Garza would net more in trade.
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 27, 2011 7:59 PM MST up reply actions
This helps knowing it gets closer day by day
130 days until the Rockies Home Opener!
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I see single game tickets go on sale tommorow...
Does anyone know if that includes the home opener?
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It does not
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
WAIT! Let me take that back.
It does incluse it
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
include
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I resemble days like this...
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"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Ok, I am totally screwed up here. THis is what it is telling me
You can purchase 2012 Colorado Rockies tickets prior to the general public in an online pre-sale tomorrow, November 28 at 8 a.m. MT. (excludes Opening Day and June Fireworks games). The Public Onsale is at 10 a.m. MT.
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
and this
Register for the 2012 Ticket Opportunity for the Rockies’ Opening Day and June Fireworks Games (April 9, 2012, 2 p.m. MT vs. the San Francisco Giants, June 29 and June 30, 2012 at time TBD vs. the San Diego Padres). Registration begins tomorrow, November 28.
85 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
No,
they’ll draw for OD and Fireworks in Jan after registration.
I thought 2011 sucked pretty bad. I have nothing to add to that.
by prettyinpurple on Nov 27, 2011 10:00 PM MST up reply actions
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Breaking: #Astros expected to announce major changes Monday, including dismissal of GM Ed Wade. Full story coming shortly. #MLB
There are still a few decent players on that roster that we need to unload some of our trash for….. :-(
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
Wandy Rodriguez
Rockies seem to have been pretty interested in him and Wade’s demands appear to have been the road block from a deal going down. With Wade now out I wonder if the cost just became more realistic. I’ll admit, I like Rodriguez (maybe more than I should) but given his contract I don’t know if even I would gamble on him. It would be fine as long as he performed, but were he to struggle in Denver that contract would be suffocating.
A few teams interested in Wandy ...
Including the Red Sox most recently. We’d have to outbid some guys, which of course means we won’t touch it with a ten foot pole.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 27, 2011 8:43 PM MST up reply actions
now that Ed Wade won't be GM
sadly you’re right. Otherwise I was down for a Wandy acquisition if the price were right…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
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i wonder what our resident astros fans have to say about this...
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
That we're not allowed to complain
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 27, 2011 10:17 PM MST up reply actions


































