Rockies close to signing Ramon Hernandez, trade Chris Iannetta to the Angels for Tyler Chatwood
by Rox Girl on Nov 30, 2011 4:56 PM MST
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Ken Rosenthal on Twitter first reported this:
Source: #Rockies close to signing R. Hernandez to two-year deal, sending Iannetta to the Angels. Teams checking medicals. #MLB
and we have further confirmation from Troy Renck:
Confirmation that Hernandez coming to Rockies... Chatwood should be coming back from Angels.
Apparently we're just awaiting the fine print and last okay.
UPDATE:
Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the Hernandez deal is for 2 years, $6.5 million (see below.) Iannetta would have cost a bit more if the Rockies were to keep him for two seasons. They get a similar catcher plus a rotation arm for about the same cost in salary.
UPDATE 2:
The Rockies official Twitter confirms that the Iannetta for Chatwood trade is complete.
UPDATE 3:
The Rockies have agreed to a $6,250,000 two year deal with Ramon Hernandez pending a physical according Rafael Rojas
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I never backed CDI as much as most people
But I’m going to miss that guy.. best of luck Chris
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by nodakroxfan on Nov 30, 2011 4:58 PM MST via mobile reply actions
And thus the great catcher war of 2012 was averted
Until we start arguing whether Rosario should start over Hernandez.
Or that Pacheco should start over both.
Ew.
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by Greg Stanwood on Nov 30, 2011 5:17 PM MST up reply actions
so, every non-CarGo/Tulo player's jersey I've bought they have been traded.
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by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 30, 2011 5:00 PM MST reply actions
Nah.
Now it’s a collector’s item!
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by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:45 PM MST up reply actions
I like it
I’ve been a fan of Iannetta’s, but I think this is a good thing. Hopefully Chatwood can give us some quality innings.
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I agree, especially if there's another player coming back in addition to Chatwood.
It’s just hard to see Iannetta’s trade value getting any higher than it is now, and if we’re getting Hernandez, it makes sense.
by Rox Girl on Nov 30, 2011 5:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
This is very true.
Which is why I’m perfectly fine with this. But does it REALLY solve our rotation issues as we stand? Not sure.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:21 PM MST up reply actions
no, it does not, but I'm sure it's not intended to.
I’ll write more about this in tomorrow’s Rockpile.
awesome.
And yea, I’m still of the opinion we need that vet starter.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:35 PM MST up reply actions
Just throwing this out for discussion
What would you guys think of using a six man rotation with all the young starters we have. It would allow all of our young guys to pitch deeper into games without taxing their arms and also lets more guys get useful major league innings under their belt.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 6:39 PM MST up reply actions
Not very opposed to it.
Though it’ll never happen.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:40 PM MST up reply actions
I'm more just trying to get a discussion going about it for now
Seeing different opinions of how it would break down and such. Since we have so many young pitchers, everyone’s going to have a differnent answer here and I think exploring them would be interesting.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 6:55 PM MST up reply actions
No philosophical opposition, but it seems like it wouldn't fit
It’s an interesting idea for preserving arms, especially if it was a 6-day rotation (rather than 6-man — using 6 pitchers when the schedule demanded it and having a swing man).
The problem is while it’s a good strategy for preserving arms I don’t think it’s a good strategy for winning baseball games. We have a pitching-heavy division. It’s much harder to get 1-6 top pitchers. So we might end up with 1-2 elite pitchers and then 4-5 mediocre guys. I think we’d see unfavorable pitching matchups about 2/3 of the time.
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Thing is, honestly, we don't really need to win baseball games this season
We’re not going to make the play-offs and we have the luxury of seasoning young players, tweaking our roster and being in really good shape for 2013-15.
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I disagree with this
Especially with the second WILD CARD being added. It’s probably going to that 87-88 wins or so to get into that game. I can easily see a scenario (although I’ll admit it’s not a likely one) where things break right for the Rockies and they reach that number.
Some things that could happen next season…..
1) The Rockies for the most part stay healthy.
2) Tulo puts it all together for the full season and has a true MVP type year
3) Cargo puts it all together at home and on the road all season and has a 6.0+ WAR season.
4) Stewart bounces back some or Arenado continues on the fast track and helps plug the 3B sinkhole.
5) JDLR comes back in early June and is a solid starter for us.
6) Chacin takes a step forward with his development.
7) At least one of our young pitchers (Pom, White, or Chatwood) breaks out and give us above average production.
8) Our bullpen turns out to be well above average (even with the possible departure of Street)
9) We spend the money we are trying to free up on the payroll on a free agent who ends up being a nice fits with the 2012 team.
10) The BABIP fairy smiles on the Rockies this season.
If I can get #1 to happen along with 6 of the other 9, I’d say we have a good shot.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 8:10 AM MST up reply actions
Add Nicasio to the list at #7
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 8:13 AM MST up reply actions
We could be the 2010 Pads or the 2011 DBacks
But I think it’s unlikely and in any case, you can’t plan for it. Too many of your points need to coincide and I think it’s only sensible to plan for 2013 while keeping a close eye on 2012 and, if we’re lucky enough, making moves to succeed immediately.
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I very much agree with this as I'm not willing to throw a "Hail Mary" at 2012 if it could wreck 2013 and beyond
But I was responding to this more definitive statement you made above
Thing is, honestly, we don’t really need to win baseball games this season. We’re not going to make the play-offs
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 9:22 AM MST up reply actions
Nothing would give me greater pleasure
Than you Rirfing that quote in 10 months time and throwing my negativity back in my face :D
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HAHA
I’ll remember it just in case.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 11:41 AM MST up reply actions
It wouldn't be a bad idea
if we can make sure our long reliever is a solid pitcher. There are no guarantees that he doesn’t get over worked because the young guns can’t make it deep in the game to begin with.
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doesn't the 6-man not work well?
not really familiar with many teams using it, other than the white sox last year
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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I'm not opposed
depending on how all these guys perform in the spring.
Speaking of which, spring training is going to be VERY interesting on the pitching front next year…
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by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 7:45 PM MST up reply actions
This is an excellent point
I;m going to be more into Spring Training next year than I ever have because with so many young guys battling for rotation spots, those game will (for once) have a huge impact on the begining of the season.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 7:48 PM MST up reply actions
The battle for rotation spots will be interesting
but seeing what we’ve got in all these young guns, even the ones that don’t make the rotation, is going to be fascinating…
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by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:18 PM MST up reply actions
Basically my feelings.
I don’t like seeing “true Rockies” leave, but we’re coming close to breaking even at C and adding depth at SP.
organizing a parade
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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You can never have too many good young arms. Tyler Chatwood pitched damn near a full season in the bigs last year, and he happens to be younger than White/Chacin/Nicasio… actually, younger than most of the Rockies pitching prospects. If he harnesses his control he could be a mid-rotation monster.
We’re building quite an intriguing stable of arms, gents (and ladies). I can dig it.
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I really like it, especially if the return is Chatwood and Hellweg
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 5:13 PM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Tyler Chatwood likely the only player in the deal… High upside. Was one of Angels’ top pitching prospects. Pitched in bigs at 21 years old
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by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 5:14 PM MST up reply actions
Still happy with the return
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 5:16 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
This is a good trade
Big Iannetta supporter but he was never going to get his chance here. I hope he goes out and has a year like 2008 in LAA. I like the depth and potential as many of you have pointed out with Chatwood.
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Not a huge Chatwood fan
but as F26 said, he’s pretty damn young so there’s some hope that he’ll develop into more than what he is now (which is pretty much 2011 Aaron Cook).
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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Nov 30, 2011 5:07 PM MST reply actions
I can't stop wanting to call him Jimmy Chitwood...
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I keep thinking Joie Chitwood...
probably a generational thing.
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Details on Hernandez:
Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal
Hernandez deal with #Rockies will be two years, $6.5 million. #MLB
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Iannetta salary = Hernandez + Chatwood
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 5:16 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
that's about exactly what I put in the update to the post.
It’s a really keen move given Chatwood’s cost controlled for the next five seasons.
It's very good.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:17 PM MST up reply actions
CDI was not the catcher of the future. We needed to get what we could while we can. This was a good get.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:18 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, I saw that after I posted. Stupid mobile.
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 5:18 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Credit goes to AMart
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by SurfaceThought on Nov 30, 2011 5:16 PM MST up reply actions
what does this mean for Rosario?
backup for 2 years? probably not a bad idea.
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Hernandez is hopefully a bridge to Rosario becoming the starter
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 5:20 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
true
Hernandez can play some 1b as well.
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by Ray Guilfoyle on Nov 30, 2011 5:20 PM MST up reply actions
Yep.
And a mentor as well, we hope.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:20 PM MST up reply actions
hernandez hasn't started 100 games since 2008
it should be a legit tandem this year, and rosario as the starter in 2013
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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That's pretty much what I was thinking.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Despite my status in Catcher War I
I am not a huge fan of the deal, but I guess its reasonably good on paper. CDI’s time here will be oft debated, I imagine, and perhaps his issues with Tracy/DOD run deeper than we know, but overall he was a fine player for the organization and I’ll cheer for him down I-5 from me.
That said, as my die-hard Angel fan friend said:
“Not a big fan of Chatwood. I’m guessing the Rox like him for his groundball tendencies but the guy can’t throw strikes.”
It does not seem to help us win in 2012. That said, I guess I’m at least happy to see some proactive movement from DOD. Best wishes CDI, and here’s to Chatwood hitting his ceiling.
this completely ignores the Ramon Hernandez part...
The moves are separate, but they’re being reported and done at the same time for a reason.
True
But I’m not particularly excited about Hernandez, so I’m just evaluating this on the trade aspect alone. I don’t know CDI’s value, but my main issue is simply that I don’t have a ton of love for Chatwood. I’m not losing any sleep over this deal, but it seems more of a companion/followup to the Ubaldo deal/building for the future than making the team good in 2012. And I’m not really opposed to that, I am just not excited about it.
I think the FO would disagree. I think that their math is Hernandez/Rosario > CDI/Rosario
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:26 PM MST up reply actions
Even if true
its a marginal increase in value. But I’m not sure its true. Certainly the Angels would disagree.
The Angels aren’t factoring in that equation. The Rockies want a catcher to complement Rosario and work with young pitchers. CDI is not that guy.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:31 PM MST up reply actions
Why not?
Is hernandez that well regarded as a mentor/steady player, and if so why is he so easy to obtain for us? I don’t know the answers, but it seems odd. I just know the Angels could have signed Hernandez for about the CDI price, and saved themselves a young pitcher.
But Hernandez isn’t going to be getting 130 starts. It has to do with better fits. We need a platoon guy with Rosario. They need a starter. It doesn’t mean that one team loses and the other wins if both teams fill their needs.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:35 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not sure I agree
First, Rosario hasn’t officially been named to platoon status, as far as I know. But even if its easy to assume (which I grant) its my view CDI is the better player. So even if we give him fewer starts, he’s still better in that space of time.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m really not worked up about the deal or anything, but unless Chatwood really comes cookin’ next year, this deal didn’t make us better in 2012.
Baseball is about routine. CDI’s OPS+ pretty much fluctuates with his PAs. I’m not sure that a CDI who gets 80 starts and 300 PAs is necessarily better either. That’s the point.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:43 PM MST up reply actions
Perhaps
I’m willng to concede this may be true, particularly in CDI’s case, but I’m just talking absolute value. I don’t think anyone here would agree that RH is a “better” player. But I do agree, at minimum, that the margin is probably pretty small.
And yes...
I think having a Spanish-speaking veteran player who knows his place is a great move, whether or not Hernandez is a great mentor. He will have a greater impact on Rosario than CDI, who would have mostly seen Rosario as competition.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:38 PM MST up reply actions
Impossible to say
it might be true…but pro athletes aren’t wired this way in general.
It isn't impossible to say.
In fact, I’m sure the FO discussed this situation with Hernandez.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:40 PM MST up reply actions
Its impossible for us to say
maybe he’s a mentor, maybe he says he’s a mentor, or maybe he’s a type-A athlete that would step on his mother for an extra RBI opportunity and will hate the perceived notion that he’s keeping a seat warm for some punk kid that’s never proven anything at this level. I don’t know. I don’t think you’re way off base here or anything, but I also am always skeptical of the mentoring type stuff unless there’s some real concrete reason to believe it.
For the record, Rosario speaks English with much greater skill than many of the young Latin prospects.
While having a mentor with the ability to communicate with you in two languages can hardly be a disadvantage, I still have a hard time accepting that this makes any tangible difference, especially in the case of someone like Wilin.
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by Greg Stanwood on Nov 30, 2011 5:42 PM MST up reply actions
It isn’t about language ability.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:44 PM MST up reply actions
here’s to Chatwood hittinghis ceiling.the strike zone
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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he won't do one if he can't do the other
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by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 7:47 PM MST up reply actions
I'm a huge Iannetta fan, and wish him the best
But I also love this deal. I think the drop from Iannetta to Hernandez isn’t huge, and I’m a huge fan of Chatwood. I think he accomplished a lot as a 21 year old in the major leagues, and you can’t have to many young upside pitchers.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Chatwood
walks alot of guys….in the minors and last year in the bigs.
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by Ray Guilfoyle on Nov 30, 2011 5:22 PM MST up reply actions
And he's only 21
and was a highly regarded prospect in the Angels system. He has room to grow and 5 years of cost controlled aweseomness.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Whether you particularly like the deal or not
It’s better to get something for Iannetta instead of having him go the route of Garrett Atkins or Brad Hawpe
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yeah
good way to look at it
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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This is a good point.
Though, counter it with the fact that, if Hernandez doesn’t perform well next year and CDI does, how utterly insufferable this place will be to visit.
Thankfully, Hernandez is the model of consistency.
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 5:27 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I guess
but he’s precisely the type of guy that will not find much love here.
Why's that?
I’ve been a fan of Hernandez for awhile. He’s old, but solid with the bat and at least competent with the glove, and probably as good a mentor as you can find for Rosario. I’ve never been one to quickly write off veteran catchers.
he even has the reverse leverage splits of wiggy
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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Do you really have to ask?
He pretty much meets the checklist of “likely to be hated by PR”:
- veteran never a rox prospect
-
- not a SABR-stats guy “traded” for PR All Star CDI
-
I think he’s in for some rough treatment here. To be clear, I’m cool with him in general.
He is a SABR guy.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:38 PM MST up reply actions
Really?
I thought he was a “relies a ton on BABIP/contact” guy. He walked 23 times last year. Iannetta walked 70. Whatever. take that off the list, he’s still in the PR crosshairs.
his K/BB is almost even
that’s a HUGE SABR thing
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
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I think Chatwood is FAR more doomed than Hernandez
We just landed a 21 year old 2011 Aaron Cook with some legit FB velocity in exchange for a .360 OBP catcher.
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 30, 2011 5:39 PM MST up reply actions
I'll take a 21 year old Aaron Cook
that’s the most positive thing I’ve read about the guy.
Not a 21 year old 2011 Aaron Cook, though.
Ew.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Nov 30, 2011 5:45 PM MST up reply actions
Misread on my part
yes a 21 year old 2011 AC is not desireable, unless the real 2011 AC is your only other option.
Whatever, the kid has upside. the Angels obviously don’t see much likelihood he’ll hit it. One thing is for sure, we’ve got a lot of dudes that might be awesome pitchers someday, only if…
Are you just fishing for the bad stuff?
He’s no Tom Seaver, but to find nothing positive about the 7th youngest pitcher to make his MLB debut last year seems odd.
Not to metion
the Angels number 2 prospect going into 2011 according to BA. This is a great deal People.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
That was a bit much
But you must agree that the Angels giving up on him for a player that their manager, presumably, won’t love…I dunno. I guess I’m coming across like I care about this deal more than I do.
I'm actually taking it as a new GM thing...
Dipoto loved CDI from when he was with the Rockies and D-backs, and wasn’t enamored by the walk numbers, lack of a big K pitch he saw from Chatwood.
I think between
saying that Scioscia won’t love him, the Angels ‘give up on [Chatwood]’, and Hernandez likely to be unpopular here, you’re doing a looooooooot of reading into stuff.
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I love me some Hernandez
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 30, 2011 5:34 PM MST up reply actions
He is perennially my backup fantasy catcher
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 6:30 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I've liked him for some time as well
definitely an under-the-radar catcher
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JFK
throw me in on this one.
I like Hernandez. only think I’m worried about is the age, as he’ll be 36 next year.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:35 PM MST up reply actions
I picked the Reds in OOTP solely because of Ramon Hernandez
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 6:36 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
As a (kinda) Padre fan...
liked him.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
I liked him because Orioles radio guy Joe Angel used to say
RRRRRRamon Herrrrrnandez.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 6:36 PM MST up reply actions
With that 2013 out clause in his contract,
his trade value was only going to go down once the season started, or once teams started signing the FA catchers. It really wasn’t likely that the Rockies were going to get anything better in trade later than what they were offered right now.
Countdown until fangraphs loves this trade for LAA and questions it for COL
begins now!
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
this is under the radar
they’re going to be cooing over the dejesus signing for a while
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
You underestimate the FG CDI addiction.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:30 PM MST up reply actions
dejesus is the first player to beat tulo in searches in more than a week
bring it on, chris.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
It should be noted that Chatwood has two free option years remaining, meaning we don't necessarily have to include him right away.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
BBR is mentioning Cahill and Garland as a comps by age
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and Garland
won 18 games that one time. Chatwood FTW!!!
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Big, huge, sad sigh
I’ll take the word of others around here that this is good for the team, but I has a freakin’ major sad that my favorite Rockie is no longer a Rockie. Wish you all the best Tar Heel. I’ll miss seeing you at the yard.
I miss the magic. (h/t papality)
by rockhead on Nov 30, 2011 5:35 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Good luck to CDI
seems like a good deal for the Rockies. time is going too fast and slow, but I’m looking forward to baseball
Solid moves
"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 30, 2011 5:40 PM MST via mobile reply actions
The thing I like about all of this...
we don’t have to lose a pick for signing Hernandez. I bet this ball got rolling when he was reclassified.
So, Iannetta is trending on Twitter....I'm sadly amused
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I has a sad :-(
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 30, 2011 5:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Me too :(
My Mom is going to rant-a-rama. She adored CDI
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Was she the lady
Who called in to KOA – she was “at her last nerve” because Chatwood is 6-11. BAHAHAHA oh lady.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Nov 30, 2011 7:31 PM MST up reply actions
Bittersweet...
I’m gonna miss Iannetta.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
I know.
For me, this move is a lot like the Ubaldo trade (obviously I think they did a better job of handling Iannetta like a human being and not ground beef), in that it was a unique, stars align sort of move.
With Ubaldo, you had a pitcher who wasn’t performing up to par, and a bunch of teams willing to bet that he will regress (towards both his mean performance and fastball velocity), and also willing to pay out the nose to do so.
With Iannetta, you have a team that wants him and is willing to pay with a blue chip prospect, a FA in Hernandez who’s comparable to CDI both in talent level and salary. I’m not thrilled about the move, but I’ve criticized O’Dowd in the past for failing to pull the trigger when a player still has value, and to his credit, he’s done so twice in an effort to make this team better for the long-term future.
I’ll miss CDI, but I’m excited about the potential for this deal to look good in about 2 years.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 1, 2011 9:10 AM MST up reply actions
So this gives us
Pom
White
Chatwood
Nicasio
Bettis
Chacin
That my friends, is an impressive collection of young arms under 30
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Speaking of Tampa
Which badly needs a catcher. (Old Jose Molina isn’t going to be enough.)
One question to ask about this trade is whether Chatwood is better than
what we could’ve gotten from Tampa for CDI — Davis or Niemann.
I’d rather have Chatwood than Niemann, partly for cost reasons, but
I don’t know about Davis. And maybe the Rays wouldn’t trade him even up
for CDI. But I think he’d have provided a better initial boost to the rotation.
We do now have a bunch of young arms. Only one (Chacin) can really be
regarded as an established Major League starter at this point, though, so
we’re really gambling on the rest.
But I think the Rox need to gamble at this point. The status quo sucks.
You're not exactly assuming something here,
but coming close to something that was probably highly unlikely. Tampa in general trades old for young, expensive for cheap. If they liked Iannetta, they would not have traded Davis or Niemann to get him, they’re using their pitching to continually re-stock their farm system. I said in a thread yesterday that I could see them trading a Sam Fuld type, or a like for like type of deal of a marginally useful position player nearing free agency.
There does seem to be a lot of overvaluing Iannetta’s trade cache here.
25
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I wasn't too on board with Chatwood when we first learned of this
but aside from the time in the bigs, Chatwood has 68 innings at AA and 21 at AAA. He’ll be 22 next season and his Dec. birthday means he’ll be a young 22. What we’re seeing with him, isn’t necessarily what we’re getting. If we send him to AA (assuming AAA is out of the question), he’ll have time to work on his control and improve his changeup. I have mixed feelings about this trade, but if you’re okay with viewing Hernandez = Iannetta, then this is a pretty good deal provided the org takes its time and develops him right.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Not to draw a comparison,
but Ubaldo had a worse BB/9 rate in his first season. Ubaldo struck out a lot more guys, but he was 24. I wouldn’t write this guy off either.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:50 PM MST up reply actions
Ubaldo
could also throw 100 mph with movement…
4-seam, actually.
his 2-seam sits 90-93, from what I’ve seen.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:31 PM MST up reply actions
Still a two seam at 90-93
With good movement is just fine. When he was drafted he had Roy Oswalt and Tim Hudson type projections if things went right. While I doubt he will have the same career that Oswalt and Hudson have had, I think he will be a solid number 3 for the next 5 years.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Very optimistic, according to a lot of reports I've seen on the kid lately.
I hope you’re right, though.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 1, 2011 1:53 AM MST up reply actions
That's where Cook's 2-seam
was before he got injured (multiple times)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'm not comparing their pitching styles.
Obviously, they are very different. I’m just using it as an example to show that young pitchers with promise can often through a lot of balls in their first season.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:56 PM MST up reply actions
Throw them too.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 5:57 PM MST up reply actions
some other tidbits
even though his ML numbers weren’t very impressive, he has a solid 10+mph differential between his fastball and his changeup. He also threw his fastball 74% of the time. If and when he gets more comfortable with his other pitches, he’ll probably throw less fastballs and be less predictable – just speculation on my part, but few pitchers can get away with throwing a fastball 74% of the time, especially as a rookie.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
he didn't.
He probably got tired in the second half, but I’m guessing a lot of his August/September issues were also related to hitters not having to guess about what was coming.
yea
ignoring the tired part which is what it is, I don’t know what this means for his upside, but certainly see a downside to the dude relying on a fastball 74% of the time, especially considering that from what [little] I’ve read it seems like his fastball is pretty strong, but not a dynamite pitch to rely on.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
I say that of course
in agreement with your point about hitters having to do less guesswork.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Some other prospect talk about the guy courtesy of fangraphs
2010:
After posting a walk rate of 8.53 in his pro debut (38.0 innings), Chatwood made some improvements to lower his rate to 5.11 BB/9 but he’ll continue to work to harness his stuff in 2010. Despite his struggles finding the plate, the right-hander still posted a strikeout rate of 8.20 K/9 and he allowed just 99 hits in 116.1 innings of work. He also did a nice job of limiting the homer (0.23 HR/9) despite an average ground-ball rate. Chatwood has the potential to develop into a No. 2 or 3 starter, especially if he can find a little more success against left-handed hitters (1.62 WHIP).
2011:
Notes: An extremely good athlete, Chatwood was set to play center field as well as pitch for UCLA before he signing with the Angels as a second-round pick. His athleticism eases some of the durability concerns that come with his 6 foot, 185 pound frame. Despite his slender build, Chatwood has power stuff. He can rush his fastball up to the mid-90s, and his hammer curveball has the potential to be a swing-and-miss offering. While his stuff suggests he should rack up big strikeout totals, his strikeout rates were curiously pedestrian in 2010. His K/9 was 7.75 in high A, and it fell all the way to 4.75 after being promoted to AA. Some of that can be attributed to the fact that, at 20 years old, he was facing more experienced hitters, but inconsistency and a lack of command also contributed. As his BB/9 rate of 3.8 suggests, Chatwood has a ways to go in refining his control. If he can maintain his 7.75 K/9 at higher levels, he could profile as high as a number 2 starter, because of his ability to generate ground-balls. In over 80 innings in the California League, Chatwood posted a Tim Hudson-like 64% ground-ball rate. Even with only modest improvements in his strikeout and walk numbers, Chatwood’s ability to generate ground-balls should allow him to profile in a big league rotation.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
A 21 yo kid improving velocity is possible
but it’s also possible it decreases as he tries to “pitch” better instead of throw the ball. I would lean more toward increasing velocity though.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I was never a huge fan nor a big critic of Iannetta
But I would have liked to have seen a better return. If you are wondering why, just look at some of complete stiffs who populate MLB rosters at the catcher position. Not the worst move ever, but I feel like the Rockies should have gotten more.
I guess this is where I come out
but at the end of the day, its interesting enough to justify on paper. Now…on to 2012…
Trade
I think its a very solid move, lets not forget that while Iannetta had two more years on his contract it becomes a one year deal if traded. I have been looking at the prospect rankings online and baseball prospectus had him as #76 overall. Lets also not forget that until last season people were very unhappy with Iannetta and wanted him out of town, taking the Angels top pitching prospect (21 years old with major league experience) is a pretty strong return….
Good luck CDI
by JTG3248 on Nov 30, 2011 6:21 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Fitting JFK's Quote of the Day (sort of)
“The fan is the one who suffers. He cheers a guy to a .350 season then watches that player sign with another team. When you destroy fan loyalties, you destroy everything.” ~Frank Robinson
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I didn't realize that Iannetta had a home/road OPS split of almost ,400
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Nov 30, 2011 6:17 PM MST via mobile reply actions
Question
If Chatwood at 21 is to be seriously considered a starting rotation candidate with about a half-season of AA and AAA experience,
why is Bettis not similarly a candidate? He’s older, and while he didn’t pitch in AA last year (he should have), his college years to some extent compensate for missed minor league time.
I think they deserve an equal shot at the rotation, along with Nicasio & White
Because Chatwood has 3/4 of a season of MLB experience...
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
so because the Angels promoted him too early
and the Rockies have promoted Bettis too slowly,
Chatwood gets the edge even if Bettis might be a better pitcher?
I'm not saying it's right
I’m saying that’s the reasoning
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I agree that's how most people would look at it,
probably including the Rockies’ brass. I just think some different ideas need to be tried.
I personally don’t think Bettis or Chatwood should be really considered for a spot in the OD rotation.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Then we're short of candidates
because Nicasio’s still a health unknown and White was downright scary at the end of 2011.
I’m in favor of opening it up to all real prospects & seeing who’s the best at the end of ST, regardless of minor league history or prior years’ prospect rankings.
Truth is both will be contending for rotation slots.
Chatwood’s odds are probably considerably higher due to the MLB experience, but Bettis will have a legit chance to prove he’s ready.
I still say we sign Paul Maholm for our innings eater...
And not put too much pressure on all the young arms.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
explain at least two of those yucks.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
coors field
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
With these two moves, the Rox make a collective step forward, IMO
Not a huge step, but a step nonetheless. A rock solid veteran catcher and bright young arm comes, and Iannetta goes. If Chatwood becomes more than a back of the rotation guy, it becomes a much, much bigger step.
So sure, good stuff. But not nearly enough. Keep working the phones Danny boy.
In a world where Rod Barajas received 2/7.5mil to play for the Pirates, I’m happy about giving Ramon Hernandez 2/6.5mil
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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And you kinda wonder....
why the Angels wouldn’t have made a run at him instead of giving up a young arm for Iannetta.
Yeah, this is very a good value signing.
Hernandez must really like Colorado, or something.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:33 PM MST up reply actions
I hadn't even thought about that.
Great point, since I’d take Hernandez over Barajas to begin with.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 30, 2011 9:07 PM MST up reply actions
So who's catcher #2?
Not a minor question, as Ramon’s probably a 90 game guy. Does Rosario stay in the bigs and split the time? Dioner Navarro? Jose Morales?
Interesting……
Rosario probably stays in the bigs splitting time with Hernandez
Navarro comes in for competition in case Rosario flops in Spring Training or there’s an injury
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
well, we still technically have Morales
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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Didn't we outright him to free agency?
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I must have missed that one
Oy.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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We outrighted him, and because he had no minor league contract to fall back on like Greg Reynolds, he was allowed to declare with the rest of the class.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 30, 2011 9:08 PM MST up reply actions
Second that
Navarro is horrible.
The Rays were and are DESPERATE for catching, and they dumped Navarro.
That should tell anyone something who’s paying attention to what the smart people do.
Navarro is purely for emergency
we have every expectation at this point for Rosario to make the starting roster.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I really don't
I don’t think the Rockies have enough confidence in his defensive abilities to send him out there regularly yet.
This is essentially a vote of confidence in Rosario as their future as catcher
Hernandez won’t start more than Iannetta did last year, and Rosario is good enough to still be valuable as he’s learning to hit MLB pitching and refine his defense further.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Navarro fascinates me
In the way that young guys who suddenly fall off a cliff tend to do. In a way that other teams are probably fascinated by Stewie.
I think the Rockies pursuit of Navarro sheds light on that,
The team hopes that Rosario will be ready for the role, but will prepare by going after another veteran on a Spring Training Invite contract.
Wilin Rosario
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I'm guessing a Morales-type backup to start the season
While Rosario gets watched closely in AAA. He’s not good enough as a catcher yet to work well with all these stockpiled young arms we keep talking about.
Pacheco will be the emergency backup, filling Wiggy’s roster spot.
I'm a huge Iannetta fan
and am sad to see him go, but happy that he doesn’t have to deal with rotting on the bench under Jim Tracy. I hate you so much Jim Tracy, so much.
2011 - not even light can escape
I understand the Tracy hate, but.....
Iannetta could’ve done something to improve his situation. Namely, not hit .172 with a .266 slugging pct on the road.
then again
Eliezar Alfonzo
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Meh.
My mind is unchanged. Not saying Tracy handled CDI well. Just don’t think the course of his career is all or even mostly due to his manager, which some here imply.
With you, here.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
rosenort, meet mike scioscia
mike, this is rosenort
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
Well I guess O'Dowd likes to make moves during the closing days of November
Not quite as interesting as last year but I pretty pleased with this. Instead of just repeating my thoughts from yesterday on Chatwood, I’ll just link them here. I’m very much in favor of this deal.
On another note, with Iannetta now traded, Spilborghs and Cook all but gone, and Seth Smith possibly gone, the Rockies may opening next season with only two guys left over from the 2007 World Series roster.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 6:33 PM MST reply actions
That's scary
Smith had 8 career at bats when we made the playoff. 8.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
But
we’re still looking at Hawkins, so that would make 3
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Was hoping against this
But now that its come to fruition I will root for Chatwood, hope he can find his control, and hope that he can become the mid-rotation guy his projections have suggested. If so, then I really won’t have anything to complain about other than the fact that this wasn’t the route I would have gone.
I really don't believe the route you would have gone was available to Colorado.
I’m guessing that Iannetta/Chatwood was the trade the Rockies took because they felt it was the best available.
I know, I still think the Rockies are better now with Hernandez and Chatwood for $3.7 million due in 2012
Than they were with just Iannetta at $3.8 million ($3.55 in salary plus a $250K buyout.)
What route would you have gone?
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Traded Street
First, I would have dealt Street if any of the reported deals were feasible (Neimann, Guthrie, Nolasco).
Then, I would have tried to find a deal with Iannetta, maybe as part of a package, to fill in a whole at 2B or 3B.
that still may happen
O’Dowd has a new strategy, and it is to acquire as many young arms as humanly possible. Then acquire even more.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Which is a strategy I heartily approve of.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Perhaps if the pitching staff showed more ability in fixing control issues in Rockies pitchers I would be a little more confident in this move and approach.
If they would stop nibbling
every time they get two strikes this wouldn’t necessarily be a problem (not sure who to blame here)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
What are you talking about? They fixed Chacin's control issue,
His control issue was hardly noticeable in 2010, now you can’t miss it. :)
by Rox Girl on Nov 30, 2011 7:01 PM MST up reply actions 6 recs
I am so glad I still remember how to rec something
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 7:02 PM MST up reply actions
steered the negotiations toward peter bourjos
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
Doubt that was even a real possibility...
though Jerry would’ve listened hard on Wells or Hunter. ;)
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
Hunter would be an Ideal platoon for Smith
wouldn’t mind his 144 WRC+ against LHP and his defensive mentoring for Blackmon, Dex and Cargo
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
It appears Keith Law hates this deal for the Rockies
Then again, I assume Keith Law is wrong about everything, so this trade must be excellent for the Rockies.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
fixed
It appears Keith Law hates
this deal forthe Rockies
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
You hate the Rockies, too?
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
He also posted that the Pirates were listening to offers for Cutch, so yeah.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 6:43 PM MST up reply actions
You mean the guy who said Arenado would never stick at 3B?
That Keith Law?
I’m sure glad he doesn’t like this deal.
if that's your reasoning, all scouts and writersbaee worthless
His ability to stick at third was questioned http everyone. It took losing 20 pounds last offseason and a lot of work to improve as much as he did. That’s not something many 19 year olds do.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 6:52 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
well...
… he certainly hates Tracy:
Iannetta scarcely got a fair shake from Jim Tracy, who’s one of the worst tactical managers in the game today, and he’s much better off out of the organization.
Really though,
he was 18th in PAs among Cs last year. Unless you want to complain about him only batting 8th, he did get a fair shake last year.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 6:48 PM MST up reply actions
If you ever saw Law's tweets about Tracy at times last season
he really comes off as having something personal against him beyond not liking him as a manager.
For the record, Goldstein seems to think Chatwood's UPSIDE is 4-5 in the rotation.
Wow
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:45 PM MST up reply actions
And I'll say another thing.
I really hope Chatwood doesn’t get moved to the bullpen. But I think that could definitely happen.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:46 PM MST up reply actions
He could, and the Rockies still could come out ahead if that happens.
It’s still wrong to uncouple this trade from the Hernandez signing.
Truth.
I really feel like Chatwood + 2 years of Hernandez > 2 years of Iannetta.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:50 PM MST up reply actions
For Once we agree on something
if you look at this from the perceptive of Iannetta for Hernandez and Chatwood, instead of the Iannetta for Chatwood, we really come out ahead on this deal.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
So, he won't get any better than he was at age 21?
That’s what Goldstein is saying here? I severely doubt that.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I know...
Goldstein dislikes him.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:52 PM MST up reply actions
quote
The Rockies swore Iannetta was their catcher for 2012, but apparently had their fingers crossed when they said it, as they’ve shipped him off for a pitcher who doesn’t fit the profile of a guy who’ll succeed at Coors Field.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 6:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That quote confused the hell out of me.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
yeah
ground ball pitchers don’t succeed at Coors
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Yea.
But I guess he’s talking about Chatwood’s BB #s
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:51 PM MST up reply actions
Probably
Chacin had that problem too and you don’t see a lot of “experts” saying he won’t make it.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Although he has better K stuff too
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
part of that is because Chacin had great control in the minors
Chatwood’s has always been poor
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 7:00 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Before being rushed to the majors this season, his BB/9 got better at every level though
At 21, I’m thinking he can improve this part of his game.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 7:05 PM MST up reply actions
because you don't want to walk people at Coors
You do want to strike people out. He is closer to the wrong end of both of those than the right end. And while he is a GB pitcher, he’s nowhere near elite with that skill.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 6:54 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Considering how fast he’s been catapulted through the minors, I’m willing to give him some time.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Nov 30, 2011 6:59 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
no
no time will be given. pass judgment now.
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
by papality on Nov 30, 2011 7:00 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Too bad
Keith Law isn’t, and he apparently has the final say here.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 7:01 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not writing it off as a loss by any means
Both trades together are a win, actually, I think. But its easy to see why his profile doesn’t fit coors as well.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 7:01 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
When did they swear that?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Nov 30, 2011 6:49 PM MST up reply actions
Chatwood "can't throw strikes".
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:49 PM MST up reply actions
I see at least three things that are wrong in that statement
It’s like an “I spy” game when Law speaks about the Rockies
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 6:51 PM MST up reply actions
They swore Iannetta would be their catcher for 2012
by having him on the trade block since the summer… touting Rosario… benching him in September…
It's a vote of confidence run though a Tracy Jedi mind trick.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 7:00 PM MST up reply actions
Keith Law hates most things
Or, maybe it’s just that he chooses to chime in more often on things he hates than those he likes, and that makes it seem like he hates most things.
I don’t know. It’s not that I don’t respect the guy’s opinion, it’s just that he comes off as such a Debbie Downer that, at this point, whenever I hear him bash some player/trade/signing, it’s like white noise to me.
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
Somewhere tonight,
Jim Tracy is celebrating.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 6:48 PM MST reply actions
him an oldfoagie are out barhopping
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
by papality on Nov 30, 2011 6:49 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
burning calculators
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 30, 2011 7:31 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Completely unrelated, I want another Red to come here
I really like the idea of Rolen bridging the gap to Arenado, I feel like he would bring a lot to the team, and for cheap. I think Francisco is out of options and Frazier is nearly ready to start anyways, so the Reds could clear some salary out (though I wouldn’t take all of it).
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Rolen's still playing?
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
yeah
and he was really, really bad last year
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
Must have been
I really thought he had retired. Maybe I was thinking he should retire.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Still makes the same level of contact, still has gap power, still plays good defense
and had a low BABIP last year. He’s better than any option we have at third and the Reds have two solid third base prospects that are blocked.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
he started the All Star Game, remember?
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 6:56 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yep
I wonder if we could effectively move Stewart for Rolen by using the pitching prospect we would get in a Stewart trade for him.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I would take another Red as well
Alonso
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'd take Joey Votto
I’d take Jay Bruce, too, for that matter
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
i'd do very bad things to get joey votto
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
I'd need 'em to throw in Brandon Phillips.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
This was what I suggested a few weeks ago,
The Rockies should go after any of the above so long as a deal makes sense.
Still pretty "ehhhhh" on Rolen.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:53 PM MST up reply actions
I'm pretty "yuck" on Rolen
Ten years ago, five even? Great. But now, no.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
we tend to agree on a lot
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:56 PM MST up reply actions
He's still likely fairly close to the player he was five years ago...
The downside with players his age and skill level is that they will have the occasional stinker of a season, see Todd Helton, 2010. The upside is that they also bounce back.
most guys turning 37 don't bounce back after a .294 wOBA season
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
the big problem with this statement is that while true, most guys don't also hit like Rolen did between 32-36.
Players who hit at that level do tend to bounce back.
Hates Tony LaRussa
Tracy isn’t much different
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 30, 2011 7:33 PM MST up reply actions
Oh Snape!
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 30, 2011 7:40 PM MST up reply actions
Severously!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
At this point, I'd just prefer to see how Arenado performs in ST.
And evaluate Stew’s performance as well. I think it’s one of those two to begin the season, and I’m perfectly fine with that.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 7:14 PM MST up reply actions
I'm actually closer to this point than I was a few weeks ago...
I should clarify that I like Prado better than Rolen as an acquisition, as he could play second or third, or the outfield. Frazier could too, that’s why I was keen on him since the Ubaldo rumors, even though he’s young and inexperienced.
Why not get both Rolen and Prado?
Rolen is not going to cost much in a trade, and it seems like the money used for a starter is coming from Street’s salary.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Because isn't Prado going to be moving to second when Arenado comes anyways?
Rolen would be here for a year at most, so why not just start Prado at second for the season?
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Allocation of salary resources
Adding Chatwood to the rotation mix will probably take some from what I had envisioned going there. I’ll have to figure out how many innings I project having him saves us from having to buy on the FA market.
I guess
I wonder how money the Reds would be willing to throw in for a Rolen deal
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
At this point in his career, he strikes me as Wigginton without the ability to suck at multiple positions
Dude was a beast once, but that’s when I was still in college.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 6:58 PM MST up reply actions
He's still the best defensive third baseman in the game
Always had a prior history of it, put up a 7.4 UZR and a 18.8 UZR/150, and his batting profile just screams bounceback to me. He’s better than all of our options right now, and if he gets injured, well, at least Arenado got some AA time.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
oh, that UZR was this season.
If we can’t get a third baseman who hits the ball, we might as well get one that prevents runs from scoring.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Good point. I hadn't seen his 2010 numbers.
I can see being gun-shy, though he’d be a good mentor for Arenado in addition to his glove.
I do wonder how burned DOD feels by those veteran signings from last offseason. Then again, I barely know what I think about any number of things, so I don’t want to strain myself.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 7:12 PM MST up reply actions
...er, 2011
How did I not notice this typo for this long???
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:47 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, that's where this originally came from
I came across his stats which made me believe he would be the perfect gap to Arenado right now.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Well...this news is a fine how-do-you-do.
Fare thee well, Doom. Watch out for rabid Scioscias, though. Their teeth are extremely sharp.
I admit I don’t know a lot about this Chatwood fellow, so I’m not sure what to think here…
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 6:56 PM MST reply actions
At least that’s what the guys at Fangraphs seem to think.
I’m confused as to why they think Chatwood isn’t an upgrade over any of our current starters? Surely we’d be better off starting him over Washed-Up Pitcher X (Pavano…?) in the No. 5 slot?
he'll probably be in the minors next season.
Just depth for now. We still need a durable, innings-eating vet
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:58 PM MST up reply actions
I agree that there's still a major move that's going to made for our rotation this offseason
But he’d slot in as a member of the rotation if that Fangraphs writer is going to talk about our current pitching situation. If (God forbid) we stand pat with regards to our rotation and Nicasio isn’t ready for the OD roster, we’ve got…what…Chacin, Pomeranz, Hammel, White? And Chatwood would certainly deserve the No.5 position over Clayton Mortensen or Esmil Rogers.
I hate this sentence.
After seasons of speculation, the Rockies finally gave up on the 28-year-old catcher,
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Nov 30, 2011 6:59 PM MST up reply actions
We got Marquis for Vizcaino
Street is much more valuable, and there is a market for him, we could surely get someone at least 2008-2009 level Marquis back for him which is more valuable for us than Street would be in 2012.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
writers crushing the rockies continues
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 7:28 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I like fangraphs articles
except for when they’re about the Rockies, then I always seem to hate them (though the rotographs one on Ian Stewart I think pretty well captures our views on him).
I think the article looks at Chatwood from only the most superficial viewpoint – saying ‘his fastball was his least valuable pitch and he threw it 75% of the time so watch out’ It seems kind of obvious that he wasn’t throwing secondary pitches at all. No clue what this means for Chatwood fulfilling his potential but he def could work on stuff and there’s def some room for improvement.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
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I find Fangraphs article very silly more often than not.
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Hernandez really fell off a cliff after the All Star Break last year...
gives me pause for liking the FA signing, especially with that age.
@CentralCaliRox
: (
I thought 2011 sucked pretty bad. I have nothing to add to that.
by prettyinpurple on Nov 30, 2011 7:10 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
woo hoo
:P
I thought 2011 sucked pretty bad. I have nothing to add to that.
by prettyinpurple on Nov 30, 2011 7:19 PM MST up reply actions
Rafael Rojas confirms the Hernandez signing and says it's for $6.25 million.
Heyman said $6.4, Rosenthal $6.5, it seems to be shrinking.
it'll be down to a grand by tomorrow morning
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
I don't get the SABR-geeks (and KLaw)'s dislike for this trade
The chances of CDI suddenly, at age 28/9, becoming something he hasn’t been so far are pretty small. Especially since he will now be hitting without a pitcher behind him. And that’s really the only thing that could make this any less than a minor win for the Rox. Worst case scenario (I mean, barring a CDI bust-out) is we get a flyer on a very talented 21 year old for basically nothing. I’ll take that every day of the week.
Speaking of Klaw, did O’Dowd steal his lunch money at some point?
by BostonTransplant on Nov 30, 2011 7:26 PM MST reply actions
iannetta’s .195 career ISO and 13.5 career BB% for a 21-year old with a K/BB of 1
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
If there's a starting pitcher named Tyler
with a K/BB ratio anywhere near 1, you know the Rox will want him in the organization.
They might even spend a 1st round draft choice on him.
Yeah but CDI is what he is
And Hernandez is actually a far bit better, at least offensively. Didn’t realize until I got home tonight that Hernandez had a 400 OBP against lefties last year. Damn … We can definitely use a bit of that.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 30, 2011 7:33 PM MST up reply actions
iannetta's OBP against lefties was .423 last year
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
I know, but ...
Hernandez also hit 323, and didn’t have the BB-juicing 8th spot in the lineup, at least not to my memory. OBP is CDI’s main (only?) claim to fame, and Hernandez came very close to matching it.
Basically, you compare the two offensively, and Hernandez is clearly the better player. Defensively, it’s a step back, but frankly I was never impressed with CDI behind the plate.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 30, 2011 7:38 PM MST up reply actions
Honestly. I love a lot of SABR things, but there's so much missing from their takes on this
The salary and one year of trade potential remaining for Iannetta is a big deal, the fact that Chatwood should be a decent reliever if he flames out as a starter is another.
Also the 2nd comment on the article ATF jus linked up above:
In evaluating the Rockies thinking on trading Ianetta, please feel free to completely ignore Wilin Rosario.
I know there are still a lot of unknowns about how Rosario will fare. But there’s no way Rosario is not factoring into this, and he’s not gotten much mention in the write-ups.
How about we give you White back for Kipnis? :)
hahahaha
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
how about chatwood, and two of your tinstaaps for Kipnis?*
*not Pomeranz
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 8:11 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
i wonder how hernandez is at framing pitches....
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
the answer is veterany
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by Andrew Martin on Nov 30, 2011 7:39 PM MST up reply actions
Does he know lots of fistpumpz?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:16 PM MST up reply actions
In other news,
my Astros are now tied for first place. BOO YAH!
[11 games into the season]
/sorrywilltaketootherthread
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
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Well, at least this trade has confirmed something Purple Row knew all along.
Nobody can start an Internet catcher war like Chris Iannetta.
by Rox Girl on Nov 30, 2011 7:42 PM MST reply actions 7 recs
So it basically comes down to this
Trade value = 5 years of Tyler Chatwood + (2 years of a combination of Ramon Hernandez and Wilin Rosario – 2 years of a combination of Chris Iannetta and Wilin Rosario)
I don’t see how that number ends up too far below zero (and it could end up well above).
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 7:44 PM MST reply actions
Still six years...
Chatwood hasn’t completed his first year, so even if he started with the team OD, he’d still have all six service years remaining. Can’t earn more than 1.000 in a year. Without time in the minors, he would very likely be a Super 2, tho.
In all likelihood, he’ll being going to the minors anyway, the big difference will be exactly how much of a season above 6.000 he’ll be when that time comes.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
The jury is still out on math....
but preliminary deliberations agree with your evaluation
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:17 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention one million dollars.
Bwahahaha
No, but really, Chatwood plus Hernandez for 2012 and 2013 costs $7.5 million, keeping Iannetta for those two years would have cost $8.55 million.
Yeah
Kind of an oversight on my part. I figured that the gap was small enough to leave it out. Where this might really come into play though is if Chatwood does become a member of the rotation (even if it’s as a #5 guy), and the Rockies don’t have to spend money (or give up pieces) to attain another starter.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 8:34 PM MST up reply actions
So if things fall a certain way
We will have a starting rotation made of 60% Tyler’s in 2015
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 7:50 PM MST reply actions
Even though it was your only ejection as a Rockie. You made it a good one. Keep the fire alive. We will miss you.
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=16966349
81 days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Nov 30, 2011 8:32 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
I love the comments about the trade on the Rockies' Facebook page
Just hilarious. Someone called it “the worst move in Rockies history.”
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Every move the Rockies make is wrong
And each one is wronger than the one before it!!!
LOL Cheapforts – Or something like that….
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 30, 2011 8:36 PM MST up reply actions
LOLCHEEPFARTZ
FIRE ODUD
/amidoinitrite?
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:42 PM MST up reply actions
we could trade spilly for felix hernandez and it would somehow be a bad move to those people
the phillies signed papelbon, and are now #1evilorg. the rockies have signed no one, but trading wiggy to the phillies totally makes it okay
PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM
How many game winning extra inning grand slams does Felix have?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:40 PM MST up reply actions
Maybe he can make up for it in cool facial hair
That or llama-whispering skills
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:43 PM MST up reply actions
someone said that on Facebook about the Wigginton trade
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 8:45 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Probably while watching "Jersey Shore"
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:46 PM MST up reply actions
I guess it's the Denver FacebookPost now
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:46 PM MST up reply actions
I liked this comment from "Agustin Gutierrez"
About time ….next. heuston ,kooky m hamol wat ever his name s…..
hahaha…i really hope he is not in the public school system or we have seriously failed as a country
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 1, 2011 7:26 AM MST up reply actions
wait...this means we traded Lisa Iannetta too
:(
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 30, 2011 8:36 PM MST via mobile reply actions
But the Angels are throwing in a SoCal hottie to be named later...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:41 PM MST up reply actions
How does silicone do at elevation, though?
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:43 PM MST up reply actions
Great
less gravity…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:51 PM MST up reply actions
That is a good thing
I was more worried about problems with pressure differentials
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 8:53 PM MST up reply actions
Some expansion is possible
whether this is a good or bad thing is probably open for debate
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Nov 30, 2011 8:56 PM MST up reply actions
Depends on whether it makes a mess or not, I suppose.
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 9:15 PM MST up reply actions
No movement
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Ooh...that's a killer
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
There are those who call me..."Skip".
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Nov 30, 2011 9:47 PM MST up reply actions
my first thought
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 1, 2011 7:26 AM MST up reply actions
my personal opinion
This is a win for the Rockies regardless, and has a chance to be a massive steal for them. I like it.
Bill Geivett is interviewing for the Astros' GM job.
Per MLBTR and Ken Rosenthal
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Just saw that
I don’t know very much about the backgrounds of the men in the FO. Would Geivett be a big loss?
Yes and no
he knows our minor league system better than anybody but at some point I think a fresh body in his position wouldn’t be bad either. How he would do as a GM is something I have no clue about.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I think he'd be a good get for them.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
Thank GOD
I was going to have a sad if there would be a day on Purple Row without a Houston Astros update :-)
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 1, 2011 9:17 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
It is fascinating how CDI became so beloved in some parts amongst the fan base
Not knocking those who loved him, just mulling it over. He seemed like a nice enough guy, but never really flashed much personality. He didn’t play any specific roles in a particular moment of team history (a la EY hitting the first jack, Dante going deep on opening night at Coors, Matt Holliday and his bloody lip, etc.) His performance was, to be fair to both sides, pretty average for the most part.
Apart from the SABR folks (who make up a small % of the overall fan base), it’s hard to figure the attraction. Maybe it’s that he was the first homegrown Rockies catcher to actually stick in the bigs for any length of time?
I’m always sort of curious why some guys become fan favorites and others not so much. Whatever the elusive “it” factor is, I suppose Chris had it. So good luck to him the AL. Hopes he makes Angels fans like him too.
And I hope the guy we got for him becomes a local hero for what he brings to the mound every 5th day.
I'm not really sure either
he is a player who has immense talent. He could be, and was at one point, one of the top 5 catchers in the majors. I guess that could be it, who knows. What I do know is, he has disappointed me to no end.
Yeah but that's the thing ...
To me, he’s exhibit A or B (behind Stewart) in the case against the Rockies having “so much talent.” I never saw it frankly. He is a solid defensive catcher, no doubt, but nothing special. And offensively I just kept seeing a guy with a long swing (like SO many of our supposed super-talents) and a disposition toward taking loads of pitches while waiting for a mistake fastball. Weaknesses against off-speed or anything with movement (like all long swings), and a tendency to get behind. He never fixed any of these problems. Didn’t even noticeably try (although I’m sure he actually did try). He was almost unplayable offensively on the road last year.
So while I think he’s a useful player and the Angels will be fine with him as their primary C, I’m happy to replace him with Hernandez and take the flyer on Chatwood. And I, too, don’t get the attachment some have to him.
by BostonTransplant on Nov 30, 2011 10:03 PM MST up reply actions
Yes
But a decent defensive catcher with plus power is always something to want. But, this fact scares me with Rosario. I can see him being the next Iannetta, with the same development stall. I fear the same failure with the same massive upside.
He was one of the first guys I followed
coming up from the minors when I got back into baseball, I always favored catchers because of how demanding the position is. When i visited Denver in 2010 (the first time since 1997), I had trouble deciding which jersey to get, I decided on Iannetta after seeing a ton of Tulo’s and Cargo’s and wanted something different. Chris then hit a walk off home run against the Cardinals that very night, securing his place in Rosenort mancrush Hall of Fame.
2011 - not even light can escape
I have his autograph from when he played in Casper
He was a really nice guy, and I thought he was a pretty good catcher. I am RIDICULOUSLY sad about this for the autograph thing. I’m very shy, even with random people at the grocery store and stupid stuff like that, and he was very approachable. So, you know, that’s one fan’s reason for loving CDI. I’m still a bit at sea about SABR stats, but I always thought he was a pretty good catcher, and I hope the Angels and their fans treat him well.
We are Fangirl. We are Legion.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."~ Winston Churchill
Would a little positive thinking hurt anyone?
Haters gonna hate. (with optional vuvuzela)
I like CDI. I really hate to see him go.
Hopefully, this trade will work for both teams.
80 today and 79 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
So what's the scoop? What are we supposed to call this guy over at HH?
I’ve seen CDI multiple times…are those just his initials or some other acronym?
BTW: Good luck to Chatwood and the rest of your team. Right now I’m viewing this as a fairly even trade.
Scioscialist Party of America - Redistributing your defense since 2000.
by Commander_Nate on Nov 30, 2011 10:47 PM MST reply actions
CDI are is initials, though it became a meme here to replace the D with a variety of other things, perhaps most notably Doom.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 30, 2011 10:52 PM MST up reply actions
It has certainly seemed that way from this side
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Call him: Destructobeam
forever and always.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Yeah, even...
Maybe better for the ’13 Rockies than the ’12 Rockies but that sort of depends on Hernandez.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
Ummm...
Have fun spelling his name during a game thread
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 1, 2011 7:28 AM MST up reply actions
He's sure to start lots of internet flame wars between
between the SABR and traditional folks on your site. Also, he’s from Rhode Island which I always liked :-)
On the field, he’s an above average catcher (although not well above) and he should be a MASSIVE improvement for you guys at that position. The problem is that some folks are not going to like how he gets there. If you like a guy who gets on base, you’ll love him, but if you expect him to actually hit for average while getting on base, then he will drive you nuts.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 7:54 AM MST up reply actions
OBP
Iannetta’s a very thoughtful and patient guy in general and certainly that way at the plate. There’s been debate about how much of his OBP is due to walking on junk pitches with the pitcher behind him. Looks like we’ll all get to test that out with him in an AL lineup. My guess is his OBP will come down a little bit but not dramatically. At the same time his average just might go up a bit with him not trying to clear the pitcher’s spot.
Given salaries and contracts, the trade seems pretty fair to me. I wish him well in Anaheim and with a manager that doesn’t yank him around needlessly.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
This is not so dreamy.
A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.
Mile High Hockey : Where B- is different than C+
I joined HH yesterday in anticipation of this...;)
I will miss CDI, he was always a guy I rooted for hard. I like a lot about the potential of Chatwood and I’m hopeful about him. The HH discussion was quite good – a lot like the chatter over here. They seem most hopeful that Iannetta supplants Jeff Mathis.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
Here's what my projections say:
Using the current rate of $5.63m/win (based on actual signings so far this winter):
Iannetta: 5.04 WAR from 2012-2013, $8.55m salary… $20.84m in surplus value.
Hernandez: 2.67 WAR from 2012-2013, $6.25m salary… $9.73m surplus value. (Yes, this is a great contract for us, no question about it).
Chatwood is projecting considerably below replacement level (seriously, the guy’s numbers are across-the-board terrible, both in MLB and in the minors), so if we do a straight projected WAR-based valuation, he comes out at zero. But he is really young, I’ll give him that… were he still rookie-eligible, he’d rate as the #156 prospect in baseball per my ProspectBot rankings, which would give him a value of $7.1 million. (Our other not-quite-a-prospect-anymore SP, Alex White, is worth $6.1 million by this reckoning… obviously, White is better right now, but Chatwood is younger).
Add it up, and this trade has us losing $4 million in surplus value, which is not good. Rosario is irrelevant here… we swapped out one catcher for another, so there’s no reason not to compare them directly (and besides, Rosario doesn’t project to be better than Hernandez until 2013, and doesn’t project to be better than Iannetta in either year).
Anyway, that $4 million isn’t such a catastrophe. That’s 6 runs, over the course of two years, or 3 runs a year… so if Iannetta is a little worse than NEIFI projects him to be, or either Hernandez or Chatwood is a little better, this deal is pretty much a wash. I don’t like the value exchange here, but it’s not anything to get bent out of shape about.
What bothers me is that this is a crystal-clear indication that we’re punting 2012 (whether we realize it or not). Iannetta has outhit Hernandez by a significant margin over the past three years and is seven years younger… there’s no way that that isn’t a considerable downgrade. And Chatwood is strictly a long-term project, who has yet to show that he can put up decent peripherals above A-ball; counting on him for anything next year is asking for disappointment.
We’re projecting at 83 wins next year (post-trade), the Giants are at 85, D’Backs at 84… this is close enough that every marginal win is huge. Between this trade and the Ubaldo trade (which I also ripped at the time, no hindsight here), we’ve cost ourselves 3-4 wins in 2012 and substantially weakened our chances to win a very winnable division.
I should also add...
One of my primary arguments against the Ubaldo trade was that the fundamental logic was just terrible… Ubaldo, because of his contract (with the 2014 option, voidable if traded), had more value to us than anyone else. Same thing goes for Iannetta with his 2013 option. These are not the sorts of players a smart team looks to get rid of.
I don’t think we needed to make a move at catcher this winter. Iannetta/Rosario was a fine tandem, the likes of which most organizations would love to have… a solid contributor for the present, and a talented young guy for the future. But if we were going to trade a catcher, I’d rather have dealt Rosario (who we could get fair value for, no reason to expect otherwise) than Iannetta (whose contract made it virtually impossible for us to get fair value for him, and if you look at the deal we just made, we in fact came nowhere close to getting fair value for him; the only thing that makes this sequence of moves at all palatable is that Hernandez signed so cheaply, but Iannetta for Chatwood by itself is a joke).
CDI Outhit Hernandez?
Iannetta has outhit Hernandez by a significant margin over the past three years and is seven years younger.
What figure are you using for that?
Hernandez has had a better OPS+ and wRC+ than CDI in four out of the six seasons that CDI has played INCLUDING the last two seasons.
If you include the fact that CDI’s numbers depend quite heavily on walks, then the “outhit” tag has even less merit. It’s just wrong.
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Any standard park-adjusted hitting stat will underrate Rockies hitters because of the hangover effect
Using proper park factors, I have Iannetta at an aggregate ABR of .268 over the past three years, Hernandez .264. (ABR is Average Batting Runs, or RAA/PA converted to the batting average scale… .263 is league-average). And that’s without considering the fact that Hernandez has had a considerably higher BABIP than Iannetta… it’s likely that he’s been a bit lucky, and Iannetta has been a bit unlucky.
(Outhit = provide greater expected offensive value (“expected” = with neutral luck). There’s no point in getting into a semantic argument over whether or not walks are a part of “hitting”.)
.004 is a significant margin?
Why three years?
What happens when you take out 2009, in which CDI clearly outproduced (better term) Hernandez? I’m going to guess that that .004 decreases and perhaps disappears altogether.
Either way, the following statement is misleading, even if you use your numbers while ignoring others.
Iannetta has outhit Hernandez by a significant margin over the past three years and is seven years younger… there’s no way that that isn’t a considerable downgrade.
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Why three years?
Because every decent projection system uses at least three years of data.
I'm glad that you used some reasoning there.
So. Let’s revise your statement to something like:
Iannetta outproduced Hernandez by .004 aggregate ABR over the past three seasons. He is seven years younger than Hernandez.
Then we can let everyone else decide whether that amounts to a considerable downgrade.
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As an addendum, we could note that this number was based on a park-adjusted formula that is more favorable to Rockies than that of OPS+ and wRC+. That would help too.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 1, 2011 5:46 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Missing the point
My park adjustments incorporate the hangover effect. Any park adjustment for Rockies hitters that ignores the hangover effect can’t be taken seriously. Yes, this means that OPS+, wRC+, as you see them on b-ref, fangraphs, etc., are all wrong, and all underrate our hitters. And no, this shouldn’t be controversial.
That doesn’t change my statement above.
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No, it doesn’t, but “more favorable to Rockies” makes my formula sound stupid. “Based on a formula that reflects the hangover effect” would be a fair phrasing.
this number was based on a park-adjusted formula that is more favorable to Rockies than that of OPS+ and wRC+
That’s the whole quote, and it’s true. People can make their own decisions on whether your formula is better or worse.
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Rosario is irrelevant here.
No. He’s not. He’s the reason why we are making the trade. CDI’s effectiveness has been closely related to his PAs throughout his career. I believe the FO was worried about what we would be getting if Rosario ends up doing well and taking PAs from CDI.
Chatwood is projecting considerably below replacement level (seriously, the guy’s numbers are across-the-board terrible, both in MLB and in the minors), so if we do a straight projected WAR-based valuation, he comes out at zero.
According to whom? BR has him projecting with Garland and Cahill. I noted yesterday that Wandy Rodriguez’s second season at 27 years old was very similar to Chatwood’s 2011.
counting on him for anything next year is asking for disappointment.
Who said that we are? He is most likely going to the minors after a stint in Spring Training.
We’re projecting at 83 wins next year
By whom? We have no 2B. No 3B. A rookie C. And a rotation littered with injuries and holes. Where did those projections have the Dbacks last year?
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Okay, fine, I'll rephrase
Rosario should be irrelevant here. We’re talking about a guy who struggled in AA this year… people seriously expect him to immediately perform better than Iannetta, a proven above-average big leaguer in his prime? Not happening. I’m not disputing Rosario’s ceiling, but there’s no reason to expect him to be much of a contributor until 2013 at the earliest.
Re: Chatwood, forget Garland and Cahill: similarity scores are toys, not projections. Chatwood was replacement level in MLB this year, and was a lot worse than that in the minors… I have him projected at a 5.23 ERC (component ERA) for 2012, league average is 4.00, replacement level for SPs is 4.85. He’s got a long, long way to go.
That 83 wins is my current projection based on current depth charts for every team… I’ve got EY plugged in at 2B, Stewart at 3B. The Rockies certainly don’t look great right now, but no one else in the division does either.
I would hold off on the $/WAR rate...
It’s going to plummet back around 5, if not lower. It always does. There’s still a bunch of Alex Gonzalez types that are going to sign for $3MM/year, tops, and have an average of 1.5+ WAR/season.
Dunno why you’re figuring projected WAR to the hundredths, either, but that’s small potatoes in comparison to the discrepancy that using $5.63MM/win will account for.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
It was $5.72m/win last year
The $5m/win figure isn’t based on any evidence, it’s just a convenient assumption. I tracked all the signings last winter, it was $5.72m/win, this year it’s about the same.
To be clear...
I agree on $5MM/win being a convenient figure.
However, Fangraphs does actually go through and make a finding that is used in their dollar formula and the results of your two findings are considerably off.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
The problem with projecting a $4million loss in surplus value is trying to place a number on Chatwood
To say that he’s only going to be worth $7.1 million is saying that he’s only going to provide the Rockies 1.26 WAR during his time here. That’s a pretty bold staement to make at this stage of the game. He’s the total WIld Card in this deal and the fact that he only has to provide more than 2 WAR to make this a surplus deal for the Rockies makes this a much better deal than these numbers first want us to believe.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 8:26 AM MST up reply actions
Chatwood is the wild card here, no question
But saying that a guy with god-awful peripherals at every stage above A-ball is “only” going to provide 1.26 WAR is not a bold statement at all. For someone whose only positive statistical attribute is his birthdate, 1.26 WAR is hardly pessimistic.
Could you be specific as to the differences between his stats in A, A+, and AA?
His stats seem pretty similar. They only appear to tank at AAA in the PCL. But, that was only 21 IP and it’s the PCL. Then also , the majors. But that’s the majors.
I’m curious.
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Look at the K rates
2009 (A): 116 IP, 106 K
2010 (A+): 81 IP, 70 K
2010 (AA): 68 IP, 36 K
2011 (AAA+MLB): 158 IP, 85 K
That’s pretty concerning, I think.
That's just one stat. And the rate didn't drop that much between A and AA
SO/9: (Worsens)
A: 8.2
A+: 7.7
AA: 4.7
BB/9: (Improves)
A: 5.1
A+: 4.0
AA: 3.6
HR/9: (fluctuates)
A: .2
A+: .7
AA: .4
H/9: (Worsens)
A: 7.7
A+: 7.9
AA: 9.5
WHIP: (fluctuates)
A: 1.418
A+: 1.316
AA: 1.449
I’m not sure that I would categorize his work in A+ and AA as “god-awful.” It seems pretty similar to his work in A ball. It seems like this was someone who wasn’t ready for 140 I{P in the majors…. and the PCL.
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For full disclosure:
IP:
A: 116
A+: 81
AA: 68
AAA: 21
MLB: 142
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I meant that SO/9 didn’t drop between A and A+very much.
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By "A-ball", I meant A and A+
He was fine in the California League, sure. Look at the drop-off between A+ and AA, that’s what I was pointing to. 3 K/9 is huge.
Again, to interpret:
But saying that a guy with god-awful peripherals at every stage above A-ball
should be
But saying that a guy with god-awful K/9 at every stage above A-ball
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god-awful K rate above A-ball
And a walk rate of average or worse at every level. That’s not a good combination.
Considering that he is 21, and has only pitched 231 innings above A ball, 3/5 of which was in the MLB in the AL, I think it is pretty premature to write him off as a replacement-level pitcher based on one stat.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 1, 2011 9:20 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Or three, or four
His FIP is ugly, his ERC is ugly… we could go on…
I am not writing him off “based on one stat”. Projection systems don’t work that way. Nor am I writing him off as a potential future contributor. Based on the totality of his statistical record, I am writing him off as a potential contributor to the 2012 team. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don’t think anyone expects him to contribute in 2012.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
I really don't disagree with you.
I just like to see the stats behind the damning statements on Chatwood and Hernandez. There are certainly negatives for both. But there are also negatives about Iannetta and good things about Hernandez and Chatwood.
In the end, Hernandez is a better bridge than Iannetta, and we got a potential solid MLB arm while saving money in the short term. There is risk in building a bridge to Rosario, but that is where the organization wants to go. This all goes back to why Rosario really isn’t irrelevant. He is why these deals are getting done. In his absence, we keep CDI.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
There are at least two more positive statistical attributes,
his fastball velocity and his groundball percentage. It’s not like he’s a soft tossing Yusmeiro Petit/Alan Johnson type of RHP.
His birthdate is a big one though
How many starting pitchers get to the big leauges at 21 and don’t improve? The numbers you are using to make this projection are not a finished product and instead a moving target.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 1, 2011 9:17 AM MST up reply actions
No argument
And that’s why he still rates as a pretty good prospect (like I said, in the #150 range overall, were he still rookie-eligible). But not an elite one.
I find a projection that has him being worse than last year to be pretty sketchy. I suppose that it is possible. But that is typically not the order of things.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
A couple things:
1) I gave Chatwood too much credit when I said he was replacement level in the majors last year. His ERC was 5.45… combine that with the MLE from his ugly AAA stint, and his aggregate ERC for the year was 5.62. So the 5.23 projection actually represents a significant improvement.
2) There’s nothing at all unusual about a projection that calls for a young player to get worse. It’s very easy for the player’s previous seasons to drag his projection down more than aging pulls his projection up.
Good to see you again, Heltonfan, and I agree...
Sad that our old small forum died. Maybe we can find BRJA and a couple others and resume our dialogue here or elsewhere. Hope Armenia is treating you well.
And I agree with your trade/signing analysis. As I wrote in today’s RP, I say “meh” with this trade. It doesn’t hurt us significantly for the next two seasons, but it does nothing to help us. Ultimately, the value of this move by DOD will depend on how Chatwood does in 2014-16, and I don’t expect DOD will be around by then to take a bow for this deal even if the kid does well.
What gets me about DOD is the way he disassembles his personnel rather than package them together in an effort to make more impactful deals. If Iannetta was expendable, then why didn’t DOD package him with Ubaldo in July, and attempt to get a meaningful MLB piece from Boston, or even Kipnis from Cleveland? DOD has wasted potential package deals for the small stuff like this, and it’s not ultimately helpful to the cause.
Package deals like that are really rare
I like the idea, of course, but I can’t get too upset with DOD for not pulling off a move like that. Seriously, how often do deals like that happen? Cabrera/Willis to Detroit is the only recent one that comes to mind.
The other interesting thing here is that after years of holding onto his assets too long (Stark, Chacon, Atkins, Hawpe, etc), O’Dowd now seems to have swung too far in the other direction, trading players too soon. If he somehow stays on the job another five years, maybe he’ll finally learn to hit the middle ground…
Yep, bummer about the forum. I’m in Estonia now, getting my master’s degree, although I’m going back to Armenia over the holidays to visit people…
I like the trade and signing. Similar catchers, and I like ramon’s average, hopefully drew and the gang wont need to pull out secondary stats like they did on Chris to show how well ramon is doing. I understand OBP is a great stat, but others they pull up on Chris are just pure fillers. Essentially adding a somewhat highly-touted arm for free? No problems with that!
Go Avs! Please?
Sad to see CDI go.
He was one of my favorites. I’ll definitely be following him in the Angels.
@bix783
leavebeforethelightscome.blogspot.com
by bix on Dec 1, 2011 4:39 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Anyone else think this will be the biggest move the Rockies make this offseason? Well, other than signing Chone Figgins to a big contract.
I was going to post this in the RP, but I will post it here as well.
NO.
In fact, I think it shows that the Rockies are serious about cleaning house. It goes back to that post-Ublado-trade conference call. There were a lot of vague declarations by DOD that young players were not handling the pressure well nor living up to their potential. There were also declarations that DOD was going to be more objective about Rockies farmhands. At the time, I knew this was at least directed at Smith, but, looking back, I think he was talking about at least three, if not four, players:
Smith
Stewart
Iannetta
Nelson
Nelson is on the bubble because I think that the organization had already given him up for organizational depth. I expect at least one of the other two will be moved before ST.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
And I’m not suggesting that CDI is to C what Stewart is to 3B, but I think it is clear that CDI never lived up to the organization’s expectations, whether they were fair or not.
Anyway, I think the FO is done with this class of guys and is ready to replace them with the new class (Rosario, Blackmon, Wheeler, Arenado) over the next couple of seasons with stopgaps like Hernandez.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Three of those guys projected as 4 WAR players coming up
those are the three I expect not to see in purple come next year
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
@Keithlaw
Some Rockies fans want to know why I hate the Rockies. I want to know why Jim Tracy hates the Rockies.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
he has always slightly reminded me of the guy on Entourage..Eric Murphy (KevinConnely)
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 1, 2011 7:33 AM MST up reply actions
Way to not actually answer the question KLAW...lame
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I think Law hates the Rox because of Ringolsby...
He and Law have been feuding for years. They hate each other, and since Tracy (Ringolsby, not the manager) covers the Rox, hence the lack of respect by Keith Law.
I don’t know what dynamics caused this feud, but do recall Tracy saying Law didn’t deserve a HOF vote.
Some of that goes back to the Ringolsby sock puppet episode on BBTF
Of course, what Ringolsby did there hardly rose to the level of say what Rob Neyer did in taking down a rival book, but Ringolsby seems to get more guff from the Internet crowd. There’s been a bit of a feud between Law and him since then, I’ve also suspected that it might have something to do with his distaste of the Rockies org, or that it might be an anti-evangelical sentiment feeding a bias.
At any rate, he’s definitely skeptical of any action of the ownership, FO and management that he doesn’t exhibit with other clubs. Of course, some die hard Rockies fans would also fall into the same camp. Usually I think Law’s a bit more neutral and an equal opportunity hater with our prospects, but maybe the organizational bias is seeping through there too. It seems he’s a bit more negative than usual with the prospects in the system.
I sure am going to miss Lisa!!!
That California tan will do you well!
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
We got an All Star catcher!
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
No starter
Doesn’t make sense could of kept Iannetta and spent the $7mil on a pitcher. Just wondering who the real GM is in Denver.
We still had to pay CDI that same money
If i get what you are saying correctly
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 1, 2011 7:48 AM MST up reply actions
We saved roughy $1M per year over the next two years from what I can see
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 1, 2011 7:54 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I think in 2012
we break even, CDI $3.55 and RH $3.125 and TC 400K
I think CDI had team option for $5 mil in 2013
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 1, 2011 7:57 AM MST up reply actions
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