Saturday Rockpile: As the D-Backs Continue to Improve, How Will the Rockies Answer?
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Dec 10, 2011 8:01 AM MST
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PrintLet's flashback to a little over four years ago, when the Rockies were coming off of a season in which they beat their division rivals, the Arizona Diamondbacks, on their way to their first World Series appearance. Many people thought that, of the two young and similar clubs, the Rockies' core was the one that would be in better shape for the future. Since then, each team has two additional winning season and one additional playoff appearance apiece, but with the struggles and turnover of the Rockies' young roster, not many people would say that they're in better shape than the division-winning D-Backs heading into 2012. That was even BEFORE yesterday, when Arizona made a bit of a splash by acquiring Trevor Cahill (plus Craig Breslow) from the Athletics in exchange for a package headed by Jarrod Parker. While Parker is young and talented, Cahill is a bit of a proven commodity that will only help a D-Backs rotation that was sneaky solid in 2011.
Now, you'd have to be flat out crazy to suggest the Rockies have a more promising near-future than their SRFATS roommates. The question is, does the Rockies' front office feel ANY pressure to counter some of the moves the D-Backs are making with shrewd ones of their own? While the Rox have made several deals over the past few months, it's likely that at this point, none of them will make the team better in 2012. And, while it can be argued that the Rox are in a little bit of a rebuilding situation, that simply should not be the case with Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez on the roster. Luckily for all of us, the offseason isn't even close to being over yet, and there are a few possibilites out there that could make the Rox an improved on-field product next season.
For the first time in years, it feels like the Rockies won't just stand pat with basically the same roster they had during the previous season. You almost KNOW that more moves are on the way. So, I pose a question - if the Rox were allowed to make just one of the realistic moves listed below, which one would you rather see? While looking at the options, keep some of the things we already know in mind:
- Trades involving the types of players the Rox are looking at won't include Dexter Fowler, Nolan Arenado, or likely any of their MLB-ready pitchers.
- The Rox are not looking at a long-term solution at third base, with Arenado seemingly looming on the horizon.
- Josh Willingham seems to be off of the team's radar.
- Don't even ask about Prince Fielder.
I'm fully aware that there's a good possibility of more than one of these moves being made, but just humor me.
Links after the jump...
Wrapping Up the Winter Meetings | Baseball Prospectus
Kevin Goldstein and company provide a pretty good review of the winter meetings, including their take on the Rockies/Cubs trade.
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I noticed that acquiring Prince Fielder wasn't on this list.
What’s up with that?
/oh
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2B hitting in the 2 hole.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 8:36 AM MST up reply actions
If there can be only one
I think I’d want Prado and then pray like crazy that some combination of the 20 or so starters the team has turns into a passable rotation.
"If I stay healthy, I have a chance to collect 3,000 hits and 1,000 errors."
~George Brett
Sigh. I'm about to give up on this, but Prado doesn't qualify as realistic by your Arenado/Fowler standard.
People wonder why they get disappointed by what actually happens in the off-season, it’s because they have expectations that don’t match with reality.
I've gotten here as well.
I think that the Rockies have too. The acquisition of DJ LeMahieu seems to be an indication of this as well. My only real concern with this is lack of a #2 hitter.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 8:17 AM MST up reply actions
LeMahieu's the default for that, at the moment...
There are other options out there than Prado. The Mets have been shopping Daniel Murphy, and apparently the Dodgers were close to a deal on that front before the Angel Pagan for Torres/Ramirez swap. This thinks that the Mets were thinking about giving Murphy up for something less valuable than Torres/Ramirez. That’s a much better price for a player that’s about as versatile and more productive at the plate than Prado last year.
I actually think he'll cost about that or just a bit more, as they did ultimately pass on what the Dodgers were offering
but if it’s even in that range, it’s likely to be worth it. Giving up Lindstrom and a prospect for Murphy is a lot more appealing to me than Smith plus Arenado/Fowler for Prado.
(I really don't understand what the Mets are doing this offseason)
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Alderson mentioned he doesn’t expect the Mets to contend until 2014 and realizing they have no shot at winning anything now he’s willing to give up pieces of the present in hopes of bringing back more pieces that can help for the future.
Plus, Mets owe a ton of money for their network, their new stadium, payoff from the Madoff scheme, to MLB for the Selig gave them. They are probably looking to clear some money up to, even if it’s a million dollars here, a couple million there, etc.
and yet they trade Pagan for Torres and Ramirez
they commit quite a bit of money to Rauch and Francisco, two older bullpen arms. If you’re gonna blow it up, blow it up. Don’t Astros yourself by collecting older pieces.
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I don't get the logic about spending $$$ on the bullpen
Alderson has been continually up front about their plan to spend what money they do have on the bullpen. So at least he’s consistent on that end.
Pagan was a non-tender candidate. The team had grown frustrated with his continual mental lapses and was hesitant to pay him the $4-$5 million he’ll get in arbitration. It did seem like they were going to keep him because they had no one else to turn to, but they were looking to dump him in much the same way we were looking to dump Stewart.
I don’t think they actually will trade anyone unless they get a deal that they can’t say no to. I think Alderson really just wanted to see how teams might respond to the chance at landing a Jon Niese or Ike Davis, and if they could bring back 2 or 3 prospects for each guy than they might go for it, as that should help build for the future when they might be relevant again.
The money factor probably isn’t as big an issue with their trade market. It’s, imo, the main reason my Reyes is no longer a Met though.
I'd guess that Alderson will try to cash in on FF and Rauch at the deadline
Same for all of them actually. I always thought the Royals and Astros could be light years better right now if they actually followed through the other half of the signing old players equation and traded them at the deadline.
Certainly, there are other options.
I just saw that as the organization starting to lean toward the Prado deal not happening. We just got more crowded with AAAA middle infielders when we have dams blocking any progression at SS. The Nelson/Herrera/Field/LeMahieu/Young/Emaus dance will be an interesting one leading to more than one guy being cut.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 8:34 AM MST up reply actions
Especially if we bring in Murphy or, god-help-us, Figgins.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 8:35 AM MST up reply actions
I saw Figgins as inevitable at the beginning of this offseason, but it sure doesn’t look that way now.
With these moves, O’Dowd really has given the impression that he’s done bargain-bin shopping for potential impact players. We didn’t trade Weathers and Stewart for Colvin, we really traded them for LeMahieu. Colvin just gives us more protection to trade out Smith.
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I'd take Murphy
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
If Murphy is actually available
At half the cost that Prado is, than it’s a no-brainer. The guy has a solid bat in the mold we have been trying to acquire, and can play 2nd. it would be quite a boost to the team, and he would make a perfect fit 2nd in the lineup.
He fits too well though, so it will never happen.
by mkorpal on Dec 10, 2011 9:57 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Darn you
He fits too well though, so it will never happen.
I have to agree for some stupid reason
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I've been preaching about Murphy for a while now.
Everyone thinks he would cost to much. Amazin Avenue told me that a couple of prospects would probably be his cost. I don’t know what we are waiting for.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:06 AM MST up reply actions
Atlanta knows they aren't getting
an Arenado level prospect for Prado, at least right now. Maybe they’ll decide to hold him at this point and try to let him re-establish his value next season. I don’t want the FO to close the door on it though. At least until they come up with another viable solution for 2B/3B, which right now the team doesn’t have.
"If I stay healthy, I have a chance to collect 3,000 hits and 1,000 errors."
~George Brett
I don't know if Atlanta does know they aren't going to get something like that.
They keep on asking for it from every team that contacts them. For this reason, I think they will do just as you say and keep him into the season. Jurrjens, OTOH, is most certainly going to be dealt before then. I think the Rockies have to shut the door on Prado and move on to finding that other “viable solution for 2B/3B,” (actually just 2B due to Arenado) or go into 2012 with nothing.
Which is why I didn't vote for that one
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
The problem with a period of of disappointing drafting and development
is that it’s left the Rockies with really limited options to improve, it seems.
I don’t know what to wish for. I just hope that the whatever the impending addition to the team is turns out to be good.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
I'm in the Trade-Smith-for-Pitching-and-Sign-Cuddyer boat.
We’re certainly looking to try to compete in 2012, but I’d prefer more long-term solutions. Those might be two long-term solutions that would improve us somewhat in 2012.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 8:37 AM MST up reply actions
This is especially true on the infield...
If any one of Stewart, Nelson, Young, Gomez, Herrera, Holcomb, etc… had developed into an average MLB regular, we would be in a much better state.
The first-round starting pitchers don't look like much as trade chips, either.
Greg Reynolds, Christian Friedrich, and Tyler Matzek, even as a package, aren’t bringing back someone who would improve the team.
I’m depressing myself this morning.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
At least with pitching, the Rockies made up for it with a couple of draft hits (Bettis, Brothers)
and several Latin American arms. The infield’s been a disaster.
The Rockies burn through starting pitchers faster than infielders, though.
Though the injuries last year were extreme.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
Yes but the infield is looking up if you ask me
Rutledge looks to be a above replacement level 2B, and lower in the system Herrera and Story have major promise. Yes one group of infield prospects failed (and failed horribly I might add) but this will likely be the last year any of them are with the team. I only bring this up because most commenters are more knowledgeable than me, and while the better pitching prospects drafted of late have been noted (with the exception of tago), why ignore the infield prospects?
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
I agree somewhat, and I'm not ignoring the new crop, but we're just talking about the drought of development between
Tulo/Iannetta and Arenado and how that’s put the Rockies in the situation of desperately needing to fill 2 holes ont the IF they’ve found themselves in.
Not saying it wasn't abysmal
But just thought that there was way to much gloom, and there was some oppurtunity for optimism that was being ignored.
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
If limited to a single acquisition, agreed.
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My vote as well
Kuroda has always struck me as underrated.
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
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My blerg
I voted for Cuddyer
But on second thought, if David O’Brien is right and we can get Jurrjens for Smith + Wheeler, I say do that.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
It's conceivable that we'd be able to do both.
There might be a need to shed a little more salary elsewhere to make up for the difference between Smith’s and Jurrjens’ expected 2012 payouts, but that would definitely put us in the same ballpark as the D-backs.
I think both are concievable as well
And that would obviously be the preferred route, but if I have to pick one of the two, it’s Jurrjens.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
If we were to do both...
What package would it take for Volquez without Smith/Street? And what the heck would we do with our 13 other MLB or close to MLB pitchers?
A rotation of
SP: Jurrjens
SP: Chacin
SP: Volquez
SP: De La Rosa
SP: Pomeranz
would be amazing, but White, Nicasio, Hammel, and Slowey are ready now. And Chatwood, Bettis, Friedrich, and Gardner may or may not be depending on performance.
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
It's an arms race.
Maybe the Rockies are going to invade Nebraska.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
That's a fight we can't win..
have you seen the arms on the cheerleaders in Nebraska?
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by Charlie77 on Dec 10, 2011 3:33 PM MST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I went ahead and rec'd this.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Rec'd, because Nebraska jokes never go out of style.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
It allows us excellent trade potential for future deals.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
And if last season taught us anything
it’s that you can never have too many ML-ready starting pitchers.
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My blerg
If we could do that I don't know why we haven't.
That seems ridiculously too little.
Seems like they’d be underselling Jurrjens by as much as they are overselling Prado. Maybe more.
It's a strange situation that leads me to believe that there's a money crunch there.
I think the strong smoke suggests that they feel they have to move one of the two to get under budget for 2012, possibly even by Monday’s non-tender deadline.
Reasoning makes sense
But it seems like the Braves should be able to get something better, and still cheap, than Smith and Wheeler.
Jurrjens scares me
A lot. NEIFI is more forgiving than most projection systems when it comes to low-BABIP and/or low HR/FB pitchers, but still, I have Jurrjens projected at just a 4.15 ERC for next year (so, a bit below a league-average starter)… he’s just depth, not any sort of meaningful upgrade. And at a likely salary of $6 million or more… that’s a pretty marginal asset. Let someone else overpay for him. I know we need more pitching depth, but I’d much rather take a flyer on Bartolo Colon or someone than shell out prospects (or Smith) for Jurrjens. Smith + any halfway competent platoon partner is much better than Cuddyer.
Oh, and Kuroda projects at 4.20, so about the same as Jurrjens (he had some crazy situational luck this year driving the low ERA), and he’s not signing for less than 8 digits. No thanks.
Have you ever watched Jair Jurrjens pitch?
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I was really hoping for Cahill, HF...
See below rant. What do you make of that Cahill deal? Why can’t we do similar thing to get better? And who???
I thought Colon announced his retirement,
Jurrjens actually worries me too, but I’m skeptical about Wheeler and I don’t see Smith getting better going forward, just more expensive and less valuable in trade. He’s not going to get draft compensation for the Rockies, either, with the new CBA. He’s kind of at a Brad Hawpe 2009 point in his career. Given the Rockies needs, I’d rather take the risk with Jurrjens, although that might be a grass is greener type of argument.
by Rox Girl on Dec 10, 2011 9:05 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
The lack of strikeouts...
has me concerned about Jurrjens. Why can’t we trade Smith and prospect for a better bet? I still say Nolasco, but there are others. One even got taraded last night.
Traded, not taraded...
Why does IPad think that’s a word?
I'd prefer Nolasco too.
Paker and Cowgill beats Smith and Wheeler in trade value pretty handily, I’d say. I have no qualms trading prospects to get better players, and I’ve argued in the past that this is what’s missing on O’Dowd’s trade resume, but it seems you’ve got a higher opinion of the MLB components that the Rockies have to give up than other GM’s do.
I don't see Smith getting better either
But he doesn’t need to, he’s already a .280 ABR guy whose glaring weakness (his platoon split) is something that we can use to our advantage. That’s a more valuable player than Jurrjens (and, again, also a cheaper one).
Interesting point of view
Unfortunately, I don’t think the Braves (or anyone else) shares it! Jurrjens before the ASB last year was close to Ubaldo 2010. He was amazing.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:22 AM MST up reply actions
He was amazing results-wise
But not component-wise. Having a lower ERA than one’s component stats would predict is not a repeatable skill, at least not to any meaningful degree.
You're right. But see also Darren Cahill, 2010.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:30 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah, of course
But Cahill still projects well… he’s really young, and his peripherals over the past couple years have been right at league-average, which is a far cry above Jurrjens.
It’s not proven to be a repeatable skill, but there are pitchers that have done it consistently.
There is a difference between “is not” and “has not been proven” that a lot of sabermetricians simply don’t acknowledge.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I'm glad people see what I see.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 10, 2011 11:55 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Aberle (among others)
saw this three years ago with Hawpe
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
So I guess my answer to the poll question is:
Priority 1: get one of Maicer Izturis, Alberto Callaspo, or Kelly Johnson (actually a more attractive commodity now that he’s accepted arbitration and can be obtained for just one year). This strikes me as perfectly realistic; if we’re making a run at Cuddyer, we certainly have room in the budget for any of those three guys, all of whom are rock-solid regulars who should come fairly affordably (Johnson because the Jays weren’t planning on keeping him anyway, Callaspo/Izturis because the Angels only have room in their lineup for one of them).
Priority 2: if possible, get a second of the Izturis/Callaspo/Johnson trio, thus plugging both of our infield holes.
Priority 3: young starting pitchers. Niese (4.15) is a good trade candidate. Another one I like, who we’d be buying very low on is Travis Wood (4.25)… the Reds certainly have enough SPs to make him expendable. One pitcher in this class who I emphatically dislike is Wade Davis (projecting at just 4.62).
I hate Johnson's Jekyll/Hyde Act
It would be great when he’s on fire but when he went cold it would be tough to sit through.
Wasn't his also the entire 2011 Colorado Rockies?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
oops. This* not his
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
I think I've said this before, but I think Johnson's a very large risk to not live up to his projections
I would definitely be on board with Izturis or Callaspo, though, and both actually would be less likely to be put in Tracy’s irrational doghouse (Tracy loved the older Izturis.)
The thing that scares me about acquiring Jurrjens, is the Braves uncanny ability to move what appears to be a quality SP and have his career begin to go downhill. Grew up a Braves fan and on multiple occasions I have questioned why they chose to move a P only to see a decline.
by MileHighHawkeye on Dec 10, 2011 9:42 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
given the uncertainty of the projection,
I think this is a pretty valid concern to bring up with him. They do seem awfully eager to sell if they’re downgrading their asking price. It’s a similar situation to what many felt (perhaps correctly) the Rockies were in with Jimenez last summer.
It doesn't matter, folks, who we want...
The trade the Snakes just made to get Cahill is just the type of deal that O’Dowd never seems to make….trading the future to get better next year. The D-Backs have even done this before (the trade to get Haren when they already had a healthy Webb) under a different GM. Clearly, DOD is allergic to the “get better now” deal that teams like Arizona and Cleveland (Ubaldo) are happy to do. As a result, he fails to get fans excited in any major way that we suddenly became a better baseball club. It wouldn’t be so bad if DOD at least went out someday and made a real free agent splash by signing a top-shelf run producer in his prime, something we are also allergic to doing. The Larry Walker signing, I remind you, is the last instance our favorite team stooped so low as to bring in expensive mercenary help for the offense. I was but a 41 year-old pup back then, cough-cough.
So don’t get your hopes up, Rowbots. Our team is spinning its wheels and we’ll be lucky if they upgrade the roster before springtime, but if we be so lucky, I hope it’s Cuddyer and a trade for Nolasco.
Yeah, I wanted Cahill too
He’s not a great pitcher, but a solid #2 locked up for six years… there’s tons of value in that.
Parker/Cowgill is a $17m prospect package (I have Parker #63 overall, Cowgill #332). We could easily have beaten that… Bettis/Wheeler is $18m, maybe throw in a Blackmon or Corey Dickerson for good measure. I’d have made that trade in a heartbeat.
I very much doubt Beane would have seen it that way, though.
Parker’s still seen as a potential TOR and there’s a lot of thought in the industry that Bettis is just a back end reliever with two pitches. The perceived value might be off from their actual or projected value, but it does have more relevance to the trades that actually happen.
by Rox Girl on Dec 10, 2011 9:24 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that's true
Although if there’s any GM who’d be more likely to see it my way, it’s Billy Beane.
In any case, it doesn’t change the overall point… I mean, Cahill’s valuable enough that I’d give up Arenado for him (which isn’t an indictment of Arenado, we discussed him pretty thoroughly yesterday, it’s just a reflection of the uncertainty of prospects in general), and I think it’s pretty hard to argue that Parker is a significantly better prospect than Arenado.
That would have been an absolutely indefensible trade.
Cahill is barely worth Fowler.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:38 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank God you're not our GM
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
by free7694 on Dec 10, 2011 9:39 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
If you think it's indefensible
to give up a guy who hasn’t played above Single-A and has a merely good (not eye-popping) track record in exchange for six years of an above-average starting pitcher, I really don’t know what to tell you.
we mentioned this yesterday, but
cahill’s mechanics just scream injury, and his FIP and xFIP are much worse away from oakland than in it. yeah he’s a “proven MLB Starter®”, but that only goes so far
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Again...
I like Arenado. A lot. I have him rated as the #40 prospect in all of baseball; that’s high praise. But there’s a very real chance that he never develops into as valuable a player as Cahill is now. And re: Cahill’s home/road splits, that’s why we have park factors, and there’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a player’s splits are more predictive than his park-adjusted stats…
Park adjustments are very blunt instruments
They don’t get at idiosyncracies at all. Oakland’s not as much a pitcher’s park as you might guess (it’s only the10th most pitcher friendly) because you can sometimes hit for power there (see Willingham, Josh). But it also has the biggest foul pop territory in the bigs and infield grass that makes ground balls nearly sure outs. It’s perfect for a guy like Cahill, on other words. I don’t think you can discount a nearly 2 run difference in home/road ERA.
This is an excellent example of being blinded by stats.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:08 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Your logic makes sense.
But if your argument actually held water, there’d be statistical evidence that individual home-road splits have predictive value. There isn’t.
slightly different track
but I believe I read in an earlier thread that you don’t park-adjust or league-adjust your stats in ProspectBot. Is that correct?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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I think he uses his own adjustments.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
Don't know where you read that.
Of course I adjust everything. Unadjusted minor league stats are beyond worthless.
okay, I was skimming a Rockpile from earlier this week and thought I saw that
You use your own MiLB adjustsments then?
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Yep
I use my own MLEs. And all the studies I’ve done indicate that the MLEs that other projection systems appear to be using are much too generous.
I'm guessing that's all proprietary info?
There’s no way I could see what your adjustments were for, say, Joe Thurman Field in Modesto (which is notorious for suppressing RH power)?
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My adjustments aren't that granular
I’m using a .96 park factor for Modesto… other than that, it’s just a matter of applying the same MLE as I do for all other players in High-A.
He's barely above average
You REALLY overestimate Cahill. He’s just not that good. If it came down to having Saunders or him, I’d actually have to think hard about that before (probably) coming down in favor of Cahill. I’m nearly always at the front of the pitchfork line demanding we don’t overvalue our prospects and treat them like the trade chips that they (also) are, but this is not a fair trade. I’m not opposed to trading Arenado, but if we do for a pitcher it would have to be someone much, much better than a blah, average guy like Cahill. I’d be thinking James Shields/Matt Garza territory, or possibly Gio (but probably not).
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:05 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
"Barely above average"
Is exactly where I project him to be over the next six years. I don’t think the disagreement is about Cahill so much as it is about valuation of prospects vs. established big leaguers.
But you're not taking opportunity cost into count
Barely above average starting pitchers are not that hard to acquire. Yeah they cost something, but not much. Edwin Jackson is above average, for instance. On the other hand, where the heck are we going to find a potential all star level third baseman who’s barely 20? That doesn’t just change the calculus on the margins; it flips it on its head.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
Arenado is a rarer commodity, sure
But rarer doesn’t mean more valuable. Opportunity cost isn’t relevant here. We don’t need specifically “a potential all-star-level third baseman who’s barely 20”… we just need a solution to the third base problem. Solutions come in different shapes and sizes.
Opportunity cost isn’t relevant here.
I completely disagree. It’s always relevant.
If giving up our best potential bat is the opportunity cost of obtaining a #3 starter, that’s not a good move for us.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:21 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
You can't think in those terms
If we were the White Sox and our best potential bat was Trayce Thompson or whoever, it most certainly would be a good move to trade that bat for a #3 starter. So we’re back to the self-evident truth that the merit of a trade depends on the value of the players involved. The “opportunity cost” is the player’s value, nothing more.
But this isn't a White Sox blog
Context is important. Opportunity Cost is important. Trade valuations can help put together more equal value for both parties, but neither side will agree unless they feel that a trade makes their team better.
Trading Arenado for Cahill would make our 2012 likely better, but it would make our 2013-2016 likely much worse.
Context is extremely important.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:27 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Whoa
“Trading Arenado for Cahill would make our 2013-16 likely much worse”? Likely?
You seem to agree with me that Cahill’s a solid pitcher. So, by implication, you’re now claiming that Arenado is likely to be worth significantly more than 2 WAR per year? That’s just… wow. That’s not a defensible claim for any hitting prospect other than Trout or Harper.
Likely was too strong a word
but trading away from a position of weakness will not help the team long-term. 3B is a position of weakness for us, as well as the rest of the league.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:34 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
to expand
Most scouts agree that Arenado will be an above average third baseman.
Even if we ignore scouting, it would be extremely difficult in this market to obtain a league average third baseman, but it would much easier to obtain a league average #3 starter.
That’s why context is important.
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This is where I have to completely disagree again.
Getting a league-average 3B isn’t that hard. Alberto Callaspo is a league-average 3B… better, actually. Scott Sizemore is pretty close to average, and the A’s acquired him for peanuts. And I don’t buy this “3B is a position of weakness” thing, either… my WAR projections certainly don’t bear it out.
2011 NL 3B: .257/.317/.387, behind only 2B and SS
NL Catchers hit better overall in 2011 than 3B.
2011 AL 3B: .247.316/.394
There’s a serious lack of quality hitting 3B league-wide.
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That's one year
I’m talking projections. Right now, I have the 30 probable starting 3B projected at a collective .263 ABR, so right at league average.
Not to get too philosophical HF,
because I really appreciate your work and think it is great…
But I think you mix up the concepts of cost and value. Costs exists outside of context. Value really doesn’t.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:49 AM MST up reply actions
I'm actually uncomfortable with the level of certainty of Cahill performing at that level
I think Muzia went far in what he’s saying, but I get the point, and I agree with it.
I've seen those three play this year..
And I would absolutely place Arenado above Trout and Harper. I have yet to see a prospect hit with as much contact and line-drive power as Arenado.
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by Charlie77 on Dec 10, 2011 3:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
With Cahill's contract, that's actually a very tempting exchange.
I’d balk at giving up Arenado simply because of the Rockies vacancy at his primary position, and I don’t think it helps much if you close one hole to open another, but had I more faith in Stewart, that might have been a possibility.
Beane, sort of like O’Dowd, doesn’t actually acquire many prospects below AA anymore. He’s definitely shied away from that the last couple of years after missing with Chris Carter and a couple others.
Just to add some numbers to this
Cahill will make $55 million over the next six years if all his options are picked up. I think we ought to be able to agree that 2 WAR per year over that time frame is a reasonable projection… at $6m/win now + 5% inflation (and the evidence thus far suggests that those numbers are, if anything, conservative), that’s an $84 million value. So Cahill has $29m surplus value. That’s equivalent to the #10 prospect in baseball (who, interestingly, happens to be none other than Drew Pomeranz). And that’s assuming that Cahill is a league-average pitcher, nothing more. Being an established major leaguer really does have tremendous value.
And re: “close one hole to open another”… if it were that simple, I’d agree with you, but if Arenado has only a 50% chance to really fill that hole (and I don’t think you can reasonably put the odds much higher than that), then it’s closing one hole and opening half a hole, which sounds a lot more enticing…
The problem is, we're at a place where we need the farm to start producing MLB regulars in the next two seasons
Trading away those near-MLB bats at impact positions doesn’t really help us long term.
Arenado for Cahill may be a fair exchange talent-wise, but it doesn’t really make us a better team longterm. We simply aren’t in a position to trade away one the best potential bats (at a position of need) in our system for a #3 starter right now.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:06 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't really like value outside of context.
This is why I tend not to get into stuff like this. It’s nice to throw about in hypothetical conversations, but you can’t build a team ignorant of context.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:11 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. That's my main complaint about trade valuations using hypothetical values.
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So your argument, then...
Is that our context makes Arenado more valuable to us than to the average team and/or makes Cahill less valuable to us than to the average team. I don’t see why, largely because I don’t see why our chances to compete would be any better a few years down the road than they are now, given that a) our farm system is unremarkable and b) Tulo and CarGo are at their peak right now, they’re only going to go downhill.
We've had the "farm is unremarkable" discussion before. I won't go back into that.
In a vacuum, Cahill in 2012 makes us a better team.
So 79-83? 80-82? he’s simply not an impact player that is going to give us a winning record — let alone make us competitive. Now if we were guaranteed breakouts from Rosario or Blackmon, a Cuddyer signing or Prado trade….maybe it would be worth trading away near-MLB talent to bolster our rotation.
But in a vacuum, Cahill’s improvement on 2012 doesn’t really get us closer to the end goal of making the playoffs. If he can’t get us to that step, then why would we trade away 6 years of cost controlled Arenado, who may actually help us for the next 4-5 years while Tulo and Cargo are still near peak performance?
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:33 AM MST up reply actions 4 recs
This.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:36 AM MST up reply actions
You write as if we are in the AL or NL East...
and that our hill to climb is just too darn steep. Malarkey. The NL West CAN be won, just ask AZ. We were an awful 73-89, but part of that was tanking in the final month, resting the dinged up Tulo, Cargo, and Helton. Our talent level, if healthy, would be more like 79-83 or 80-82 that you mention. Sadly, the loss of Street has lowered that a bit, but there’s time to get back to that level. I think three deals to help us in 2012 could get us the division. One, a FA signing of Cuddyer. Two, a trade for someone on Nolasco’s level, and Three, obtaining a real MLB second sacker.
I’d like us to win a division for once, so why is the mindset around here that we necessarily HAVE to be rebuilding our team for 2013-2016? That’s a deteatest attitude that I believe Heltonfan can back up with his projected wins number. He probably has us at 82 wins right now. Let’s focus on getting some 2012 help, then.
See my post below
I don’t believe 2012 is completely out of the realm of possibility. I do, however, take issue with selling off near MLB ready parts of the farm (Arenado) solely to improve our roster for 2012.
The Dbackshave that advantage with their “Big Four”. We do not.
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I've got us at 80.5 wins now
Been tweaking the depth chart a bit recently… I decided it’s better to play it safe and not count on De La Rosa at all. Plus the Street trade hurts a bit, as does the D’Backs grabbing Cahill.
But yes, I completely agree that writing off 2012 is a mistake. The D’Backs, even with Cahill, project at 86-76… this division is thoroughly winnable, and I’d like to see us give it a shot.
And to Muzia: Cahill for Arenado would not be a move solely to improve the 2012 team. It would most likely help the team in 2013 as well, and there’s a very real chance that it would help even beyond that (again, Arenado is no sure thing, I can’t stress that enough).
I'm well aware that a prospect is just a prospect until he's proven.
Ian Stewart is that shining example to all of us.
But I also weigh scouting reports and my own personal opinions from watching Arenado the past two years, and I am high on his ability to transition to the majors. I know you purposefully ignore those biases in your projections, but I find them extremely valuable.
Because of that disconnect, there’s essentially zero chance that we find a middle ground on this issue. It’s been a fun debate, however.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 11:05 AM MST up reply actions 3 recs
Oh, I'm sure we won't find a middle ground
That would go against the essence of internet debating, wouldn’t it? ;)
But seriously, can you elaborate on what you see in Arenado that makes him a better prospect than the numbers would indicate? I can’t incorporate this kind of stuff into my projections, but that doesn’t mean I think it’s worthless…
I've already given my two cents on that,
just the contact rate alone makes me think he’s a bit more likely to have some MLB value, even if he loses some on the top range of expectations without OBP or significant power.
RG is faster than me
I would also add excellent strike zone awareness. He almost never strikes out looking (less than 10 times in the past two seasons, I believe) and usually puts the ball in play.
I’ve seen you concerned about his contact translating to power, but I have noticed that Arenado really shortens his swing quite a bit with RISP. He doesn’t try to hit the ball over the fence to drive the guy home, and focuses on putting the ball in play. His power numbers may suffer because of it, but I really don’t view this as a negative.
Again, it’s little things like this that lead me to believe he has a high baseball IQ, not to mention the actual tools to put these principles into practice. I know RBI is a useless stat, but the guy honestly focuses on just driving runners home. You can see it in his swing and in his approach.
I’m nearly convinced that he’ll be a solid MLB player, and probably something more.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 11:17 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention defense
Where numerous scouts now believe he is not only going to be serviceable at third, but actually above avererage to plus.
by Traindogger on Dec 10, 2011 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
He sounds like Bichette as a hitter...
Widening out and shortening stroke with two strikes was Dante’s trademark. Not taking strike three may also been his trait, and it may not necessarily mean excellent strike zone awareness. It could mean he just swings at a lot of pitches. What’s Arenando’s average pitches seen per plate appearance? Dante’s was only 3.5.
Thanks for the explanation
And I like the “high baseball IQ” argument. I still don’t see why a player who excels at making contact should be expected to develop better than one who excels at (for example) hitting for power, but the baseball IQ thing… I can embrace that logic. Of course, whether or not you or I or anyone else is properly capable of assessing a player’s baseball IQ is a separate question… but anyway, thanks for the response, that’s helpful.
Doesn't power develop later?
It seems to me that would show statistically, and it definitely feels right anecdotally. I mean, Joey Votto only hit 97 HR’s in the minors. It would seem to me that a player who excels at making contact would have MLB value in that department sooner than a player who excels in power has in their department.
Mike Stanton begs to differ
Seriously, though, that’s a good question, and I don’t know the answer. I can say one thing, though, and that’s that the “power develops later” thing is largely a product of the fact that HR rates are considerably higher in MLB than in most minor leagues, which in itself says absolutely nothing about how players with high or low minor league HR totals would be expected to fare in MLB….
I think that assumption
probably devolves from the idea that players who hit for power have bigger, harder swings than guys who hit for contact, and that with that bigger swing comes more gaps that better pitchers can exploit. the statistical analysis Rox Girl mentions would probably give some idea whether there’s a general truth to that, but there would still obviously be exceptions to the rule.
There’s probably also an underlying assumption that contact hitters are “smarter” hitters, which is probably mostly just an archetypal response based on the general idea that powerful guys are “brawny”, while more finessed (generally smaller) guys are “brainy”….
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 2:39 PM MST up reply actions
The way you describe him
Arenado is now my baseball hero. That’s just about everything I want in a MLB hitter.
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If we got a Nolasco, KJ, and Cuddyer...
hypothetically, and all it cost us from our MLB roster was a Smith and Blackmon type, what would we project to in wins then? What combo of trades and/or FA signings could get us to 86 projected wins or close?
Forget Cuddyer
Smith is better. Cuddyer would be a colossal waste of resources.
Nolasco (or Niese), KJ, and Callaspo would get us up to 85 wins.
Niese kind of scares me...
more hits than innings pitching at Citi Field? Seems a bit hittable to me. I like his age, but what else is there that stands out?
Point taken on Cuddyer….may be better use of capital elsewhere.
Niese
Solid K/BB numbers, good groundball rate… he actually had a 3.77 FIP this year, just got slaughtered on BABIP. He looks like a perfectly good middle of the rotation guy to me.
What about Volstad?
I think he’s going to be one of the least costly starters available but it seems to me that he’ll be almost as valuable as a lot of these other pitchers we’re talking about.
Volstad
I have him projected at 4.35… so he’s like half a tier behind these other guys. I wouldn’t complain if we acquired him, but I think we can do a bit better.
what is the relation of your "ERC" to FIP, xFIP, SIERA, etc?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
ERC is component ERA
Which is like FIP without the BABIP regression. In other words, it’s the ERA that you’d expect a pitcher to have given his IP, H, HR, BB, HBP, and K totals.
My ERC is scaled to a park-adjusted league average of 4.00.
what's the formula?
if you don’t mind…
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Raw ERC formula
ERC = ((H+BB+HBP-HR)((1.4(1.12*(H-HR)4*HR)-0.6*H-3*HR0.1*(HBP+BB))1.1)/(((1.4(1.12*(H-HR)4*HR)-0.6*H-3*HR0.1*(BB+HBP))1.1)+3IP)+HR)*9/IP
That’s based on David Smyth’s BaseRuns, which is the most accurate of the theoretical run estimators.
cool, thanks
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Not sure what happened there, let's try again
((H+BB+HBP-HR)((1.4(1.12*(H-HR)4*HR)-0.6*H-3*HR0.1*(HBP+BB))1.1)/(((1.4(1.12*(H-HR)4*HR)-0.6*H-3*HR0.1*(BB+HBP))1.1)+3IP)+HR)*9/IP
If the formula doesn’t come out right this time, just google “David Smyth BaseRuns”, you’ll get the idea…
The stars are bolding things
I don’t think you want bolded but instead multiplied.
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Yes, and ...
again, Cahill’s probably not even a #3 starter. There’s a very significant change he leaves the Coliseum and becomes a #5-at-best.
I don’t get this conversation at all.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
with his elite GB%, he should always maintain some success
He’s a very solid MLB regular, and I would love to have him in our rotation. We just aren’t at the position to trade away TOR potential like the Dbacks at this moment.
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It's a bit more nuanced than that, though,
It’s a 50% chance of filling the hole with maybe up to a 20% chance (depending on how much faith you have in what the Rockies are saying about him having 3rd in the lineup offensive capability, I’d say closer to 10% or less) within that 50% that Arenado is a regular All-Star level player. Cahill doesn’t have that ceiling, and any 3B the Rockies try to acquire likely won’t either.
To get the playoffs regularly, the Rockies will need another player or two like that, and given that Arenado might be it at a dirt cheap cost, it makes him very difficult to pass along.
by Rox Girl on Dec 10, 2011 10:14 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
This is it exactly, for me
This idea of trading a prospect who has the chance to be an outstanding player for a player who we already know to be effective, but not great, at the MLB level, just to have “something” to me totally misses the point of trying to build a real winner. So Cahill can help us win the division in 2012? Then what? Does anybody really believe that this team, plus Cahill and Callaspo, is going to win in the playoffs, go to the World Series, win it, even if it wins the division? Is there anybody in the system on the horizon likely to change that? Not anymore.
Take Tulo and CarGo, add an Arenado that meets projections in a year or two. Now you’ve got a team that’s a lot farther down the road to competing. And with Arenado working cheap for a few years, you’ve got more money to add some pieces around it. Is it guaranteed? No. Do we know exactly what we have right now? No. But does it offer the chance to create something special? Yes.
Sometimes a team does have to take a chance on developing something special, and not settling for something they can comfortably value right now.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 11:38 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Lots and lots of assumptions in your comment...
Cahill helps in 2012, and THEN what? You gotta be joking. Cahill would/could also help in 2013, 2014, etc. He isn’t a one-year rental.
HF didn’t say Cahill/Callaspo were the keys to unlock the World Series vault for us. He said his excess value based on his long-term contract and being under control exceeds expected value from Arenado, a perfectly reasonable position to take. Don’t create a strawman argument to battle his points.
You are a believer in Arenado’s future maybe being better than the projected value right now, and that’s fine. But sometimes you’ve gotta trade value to receive value, and 2012 and beyond would look better for our rotation with Cahill in it. Arenado may, or may not, work out to your expectations. He may be a future HOFer too, but as with all prospects, he’s a prospect because he is not a proven MLBer. A crapshoot, in other words.
The "then what" was referring to 2012
so he helps us win the division next year? Where does that lead us? Is winning a division really our goal, or is it winning a pennant, then a world series?
I’m thrilled that our “excess value” would go up with a #3 starter instead of a potential all-star third baseman. Except if Arenado pans out, it doesn’t. It could go up even more. This idea is about trading the possibility of excellence for the certainty of something less. That is not how championships are won. It is the strategy of the mediocre, which ironically is exactly what you’ve been railing against.
One other thing – there are no strawmen to be found in my post. I would appreciate it if you take your own advice and not resort to such rhetorical tricks to try to undermine an argument you disagree with.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 12:09 PM MST up reply actions
I would be fine making a trade
like this in almost any year but this one for a single reason: Outside of Arenado we have almost no one who can play third base. We would then have to sign a 3B FA this year or next and this year the crop isn’t great (Ramirez and lesser players) and I don’t know about next year. If 3B wasn’t as big a hole trade the unknown with high probability for a known quantity and you’ve got it. This also goes for any of the Rockies other prospects, it’s just that, as RoxGirl says, the FO hasn’t been willing to do this.
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JFK
It's not just the 2012 and 2013 FA crops
it’s 3B in general across baseball. There are just not many difference makers at the position, period. That’s what I think is being missed in this conversation.
Arenado has a chance (yes, no guarantees) to be the kind of special player that, added to Tulo and CarGo, could make us a real contender, for more than just winning a weakened division. And do so at a price that would allow us to supplement the pitching staff, or 1B, or the outfield to reach that level. From where we are right now, we are going to have to add difference makers – I think 2011 made that obvious. CarGo, Tulo and a bunch of guys isn’t going to meet the goals this franchise should have. That’s not easy to do at any position, but the fact that Arenado happens to offer that opportunity at a position that is suffering across MLB just adds to his unique value.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 1:16 PM MST up reply actions
Of COURSE winning a WS is any team's ultimate "goal"....
but winning a division would give any team a big head start in that quest. Also, it’s better than winning a WC spot in the new format for obvious reasons.
You write that as if we should construct a roster with enough “high-end upside” talent to not just win a division, but to win a WS. The problem with that thinking is the idea that a division-winner with just “good solid” players and depth has less of a chance of going all the way than a division-winner with more All-Stars. It’s just not provably true.
Just getting “to the dance” is 85% of the battle, so to speak. Any team that gets in the postseason can get hot, and win the WS. Sure, it helps to have a “Randy Johnson in his prime” to make three starts in the LCS and/or WS, but the odds that the opponent will have that sort of difference maker against us and kill our hopes is not enough to worry about and make long-term personnel decisions to offset.
Just having a good, well-run team that has lots of really good players and a couple stars (Cargo, Tulo in our case) and no real holes is good enough for me, as it should be for any fan. Let’s stop dreaming of the All-Star or HOF caliber talent we could be trading away to get that #3 proven starter, when the chances of the prospect being traded turning into such a star is rather small.
You write that as if we should construct a roster with enough "high-end upside" talent to not just win a division, but to win a WS.
That is exactly what I intended to write. Why on Earth wouldn’t we? It’s all well and good to say that a team of average guys surrounding a couple stars can get hot and win it all if they just win the division, but that’s not the norm. Being a serious contender for a world title much more often involves having great players on your roster.
The fact is that average players are more available to acquire than true stars. Giving up somebody who has the chance to be a true star is taking away a talent you are unlikely to replace. Allowing that player to become a star under your watch is giving you something you are unlikely to get elsewhere. Of course that player might not be great, but you can still acquire a Cahill equivalent in other ways, and be in exactly the same place you are by making that trade, and having also given yourself a chance to develop a star.
What are are proposing is capping the potential upside offered by prospects at mid-level starter level, just out of fear that the prospect might work out. I understand it’s a method of controlling prospect risk, but it’s one that’s going to lead to a cap of mediocrity for the team.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 3:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
er, prospect might NOT work out...
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 3:27 PM MST up reply actions
I'm actually fine with this argument with any Rockies prospect save Arenado
Pomeranz might be on the border of where I’d draw the line. There’s just too much of an intersection with Arenado’s potential, positional need and near MLB readiness, however, to make him that expendable, particularly for a starting pitcher (which is a position that’s more catastrophic injury prone than others) that’s not a TOR, and who could be getting dumped at an opportune time by a team that noticed a problem in the second half last season.
by Rox Girl on Dec 10, 2011 3:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Just having a good, well-run team that has lots of really good players and a couple stars (Cargo, Tulo in our case) and no real holes is good enough for me, as it should be for any fan.
I guess I’m just an unreasonable fan, then, to hope that we might actually try to develop another star, rather than settle for the ceiling of a mid-level starter in his place. I guess I’m just crazy enough to think that if you take a chance on a guy that is almost by consensus considered an above-replacement level ML player at a position of scarcity, it might just work out, and work out in a big way. I guess I think that sometimes you have to take a chance in order to build a winner, and not always take the path of lowest risk and lowest reward.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 3:08 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm unreasonable too...
In truth, I’d like us to sign a free agent run producer in his prime, something we have failed to do since LW in ‘95. However, you undestimate the benefits of having legit proven MLBers at each position, and how it’s more conducive to season-long success than two or three more stars on the roster to go with several holes.
legit proven MLBers at each position
Let’s name the teams that can claim to have such a benefit.
Yankees.
Red Sox?
Rangers?
Angels?
Yep. Good list.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 3:41 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm really not in favor of a lineup full of holes
so I think you’re misunderstanding me here.
What I’m saying is that it takes more than a couple stars and a lineup full of “solid” players. I don’t think we can sit back and say “well, we’ve got Tulo and CarGo, so all we need now is role players around them”. I think that’s a road to complacency that we can’t afford. CarGo and Tulo need support from another legit bat (and I’m talking more than a Cuddyer or Willingham here). I have been saying that for a couple years now, and after 2011 I feel I have been proven right.
What I am saying is that it’s a lot easier to get the solid guys to supplement those stars than it is to get the stars. And, relevant to our situation, it’s also cheaper. I’m not saying we shouldn’t get them, I agree we will have to get several of them at various positions. I’m simply saying that giving up on having any more elite players, and cashing in that potential so that we can add “solid” guys is sometimes not the right move.
Arenado’s floor is very likely one of those “solid” guys to surround them, and his ceiling could be to be the third leg of the base a true contender is built on. If there is a player this franchise has had in its system since Tulo that has the potential to make that step, this is the guy. As a fan I don’t think I have to be expected to settle for 2 stars and simply forget about having any more, if the opportunity arises. Try to imagine where we would be if before 2007 we had said “we already have 2 stars in Atkins and Holliday, that’s all we can expect. Let’s trade him for a #2-3 starter. He’s a little big for shortstop, he might have to move to third, he might not be able to hit major league pitching. Let’s make sure we get something.”
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 4:09 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Point well-taken and I don't disagree...
We definitely do need a third big bat to go with Cargo and Tulo. However, even if Arenado turns out to be The One, I doubt he comes right out of the shute that way. My guess is that he’s three years away, at least, from being that respected bopper that can protect Tulo in the lineup. He’d still be only 24 or 25 when he breaks out, but that doesn’t help us in 2012, 2013, and possibly not in 2014 either.
So, YES, a team of solid players without holes to go with Tulo and Cargo could go far, but we realistically need two or three of those solid contributors to have All-Star seasons in any year in order to make the playoffs. Frankly, giving up on Ubaldo so soon is something I am afraid we will regret as I simply think he was out of sync last season and had an off-year. He was a proven ace-level pitcher at his best, and we don’t know if either Pom/White will ever get there. O’Dowd really cost us All-Star potential production for 2012 when he made that trade, IMO, and that hurts more than any opportunity cost of keeping Arenado instead of trading him for a Cahill type of pitcher..
If Ubaldo bounces back, you're right
if he doesn’t, and Pomeranz lives up to billing we’re right back to where we were in having Ubaldo at his peak, with the potential for contributions from other guys. I have to believe the Rockies were seeing something that told them Ubaldo wasn’t likely to rebound, because even with the potential to have an ace and at least one more MLB contributor in what we got, I have to think they would have preferred to have the proven star. Of course money is always the other possible explanation there.
In some ways it’s almost like a prospect for prospect deal, because while Ubaldo had proven he could be great, there is plenty of room for projecting what he can do in the future. His 2011 has probably redefined what his floor could be, and raised real questions about how likely he is to reach his ceiling again. I’m so confused by what went wrong for him this year that I won’t even try to predict if he’s likely to make us regret the deal or not.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 6:28 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I think you may have misunderstood my Cahill/Callaspo point
I wasn’t saying that he said it was the key to unlocking the world series. My point is that we should be looking for people that give us a chance to win the world series, and that nobody would mistake those guys for people who put us in that position. Do that, and we’re still not close to what our goal should be, and we now don’t have a guy who has the potential to possibly become a player who might get us quite a bit closer.
Sure, there are no guarantees with Arenado. But I think there is a guarantee that if you trade him for Cahill, and bring in a Callaspo to be your 3B for the foreseeable future, you’re still left looking for a true difference maker. The best bet from the farm system would be gone, and financially they’ve got no more to work with – a little less, actually….
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 1:24 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We should be looking for guys that give us the best chance...
of winning the most possible games in a 162 game schedule. Rule #1 should be “leave no holes” in the lineup, rotation, or bullpen. We can’t have any more seasons with Wiggy, Lopez, or Felipe Paulino playing or pitching us out of contention in May. If we build a team with good talent in all 25 roster spots and no glaring holes, and it results in 95 wins, I’ll let the rest take care of itself. Winning a WS would be great, but constructing a roster is about winning the most regular season games, or should be.
"leave no holes in the lineup"
so let’s trade our only real 3B option for a starter to add to our 12 member rotation?
We can’t have any more Wiggy, Lopez or Paulino, so let’s sign Callaspo?
I’m really not following the logic here.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 3:05 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Heltonfan rec'd Callaspo...
so that comment should be directed to him.
I’m discussing the hypothetical here. In theory, it could have made enormous sense to trade Arenado for Cahill, but the scouts and talent evaluators could disagree. In any event, we could get someone like Prado to man 3rd base.
Yes, we have no internal options for 2012, but guess what? Arenado isn’t a real internal option either for next year. Even if he wins the job out of ST, as a young player he can’t be expected to hit better than .250/.310/.400 his rookie year at age 21. Plus, he probably would make a lot of rookie mistakes at 3rd base. We need someone more seasoned for at least one season.
So let's get someone for one season
let’s not throw away the kid because he might not be 100% ready for this year, and we have decided we HAVE to win the division and hope for a playoff miracle now…
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 4:10 PM MST up reply actions
We've gotta TRY to win the division...
even if we don’t HAVE to. Yes, people like Rolen could suit us for that type of placeholder role until Arenado is ready. But O’Dowd better get cracking. Nothing has really been addressed yet for next year.
I'm assuming there are more moves to come
and everything we’re hearing indicates that’s the truth. I voted for Prado in the poll above, because he would absolutely fill one of our holes, either 2B or 3B, this year and in the future. He can handle two positions of great scarcity in MLB. And he should be one of those “solid” guys every top team needs for several years. Honestly, for my comments about Callaspo above, I kind of like the idea of bringing him in. But only if we’ve still got the option of Arenado going forward.
But the Prado deal works for me only if we’re talking a guy like Wheeler in the deal, not Arenado (assuming Smith would be included either way). Wheeler showed potential to be a big bat this year, but he’s got a much lower floor. I’m willing to give up the chance that he becomes a star, because it’s much more remote than Arenado’s chance. His floor is much higher, and his ceiling by all accounts much more likely to be achievable.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 6:34 PM MST up reply actions
50% Chance?
If Spring Training started today, he’d be the man.
I don’t think that’s Plan A, but it’s obviously a contingency.
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You're overhaluing Cahill and undervaluing Bauer/Saunders
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t mind the Rox acquiring Cahill for his innings-eating ability, and the fact that he’s only 23. But other than that, he’s pretty mediocre, the least of Oakland’s front line guys and I’m actually surprised how much Beane got for him.
He’s an extreme ground ball pitcher who, like almost his brethren, gets rocked hard when he can’t locate the knees or the ump isn’t giving him low strikes. I really don’t like those kinds of pitchers because it’s so hit and miss. He played in a ground ball pitcher’s paradise in Oakland, with the long infield grass. His road ERA last year was five and a quarter, and he now goes to a top 5 hitters’ park.
Yes he had a good 2010, but his peripherals didn’t really match the front line numbers. Meanwhile, Saunders pitched to a sub-4.00 ERA in that same Arizona ballpark last year. I’m not at all clear they’re actually better if they end up dumping Saunders for Cahill. Or if they keep Saunders and keep Bauer and Skaggs bottled up for another year.
I think AZ was shooting for Gio, which WOULD have made them significantly better, but lost their nerve (and didn’t wan to give up Bauer or Skaggs) and downgraded. Not a game changing deal, IMO.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:29 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Saunders is another guy who got very lucky in the ERA department this year
His peripherals put him pretty firmly in the #4/5 starter category. At his salary, he has zero value.
I dunno. He's done that throughout his career.
I remember back when I was an AL fan he drove he absolutely crazy. Quality start after quality start even though when he was off it was like batting practice. He has a way of getting out of jams that I don’t think is pure luck.
He’s pretty good and if the D’backs dump him I’d love to have him in our rotation.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:37 AM MST up reply actions
Yep.
That worked out great for Cleveland.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 9:55 AM MST up reply actions
Yu Darvish
This is a HUGE longshot, I understand that. I know that he takes two layers of money to get to and the Rocks aren’t likely to even try. But what is he doesn’t sign with the team that gets the initial negotiation rights? This could be the best player still available, and could give us a potential #1 guy.
I know that there is a ton of fluctuation with pitchers from Taiwan / Japan, but I think he’s a #1 Ceiling #3 Floor type of pitcher.
If nothing else, what does everyone else think Darvish projects as?
Daisuke Matsuzaka
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If he doesn't sign with the team that wins the post, he returns to Japan.
No other MLB team would have rights to negotiate with him.
Negotiations
I had no idea that was the case. My understanding was they were just given the first right to negotiate. I suppose that only makes it even more far fetched for us.
by RockiesRick! on Dec 11, 2011 12:11 AM MST up reply actions
I'm gonna be a bad boy and speculate on Prince
I think another team, one without quite the same player loyalty ethic as the Rox, would at least be calling around — particularly to the Rangers — to see if someone wanted Todd for his last couple years in exchange for nothing but salary relief. His salary plus the rest we’ve built up would be enough to nab Prince. He’d hit 50 in Coors and make us (by a substantial margin) the best middle of the lineup in the NL.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:35 AM MST reply actions
I like it
But it feels more like a video game move then a Rockies move
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Aside from the fact that I don’t think anyone would be willing to take on $23 million for Helton, would Helton accept a trade? And I really like Fielder but not at his price tag. He wants too many years, let an AL team offer him that.
by Adam2011 on Dec 10, 2011 9:48 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Texas might
$23m over two years isn’t out of the question for them, and he would definitely be an improvement. In fact, since their coming-to-Jesus moment on budget (when all their studs are FA’s) is coming in about two years, it’s not a bad fit.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:01 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah, he is
They badly want to upgrade there, since it’s almost the only position they can …
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
Well
Helton only has two years left on his contract at: 2012 $4.9 and 2013 $5.0 so not a lot of money in his contract at all actually.
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Back payment
Helton’s actually due $13.1 million (at 3% interest) due in backpayment between 2014-2023.
I know
but that’s only at something “small” like $1.3M per year which is not generally a huge hindrance for any team.
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"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'd like to think of those payments as "small money to keep Helton as a visible part of the organization"
He’s our first true great, and there’s really no reason to trade him away unless he specifically asks for it.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:11 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Good way to look at it
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Well, I'd take issue with "no reason to trade him"
Namely, in this scenario we’d get a hell of a lot better switching to Prince at 1B.
But yeah, otherwise I agree.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:50 AM MST up reply actions
He is the future batting coach
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
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by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
I thought that was Giambi?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
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JFK
I would rather see Helton as the hitting coach.
No offense to Giambi
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Well
I’m expecting Giambi to retire first so Giambi would get the first nod at hitting coach. Helton would stay in some other capacity (or replace Giambi) when he retires
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"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
i picked kuroda
and it’s surprising that most think cuddyer is the answer at the moment, given our needs for actual good pitching are higher than our needs for cuddyer
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Agreed
We need more innings out of our SP’s so pitching is the biggest need. Cuddyer scares me due to his age and I’ve never really considered him that good of a hitter especially for a corner OF. I’m not going to discount him and am willing to give him extra points for being a “leader” since something just isn’t right in that clubhouse. But unless we have 3 SP’s that are reliable, we’re going to have issues next year.
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by Cargo'es Yard on Dec 10, 2011 9:49 AM MST up reply actions
Cuddyer's got damn good numbers
In a bad hitters park. I’d like at him again if that’s your opinion of him.
Oh, and if age is a concern, I’m not sure you really want Kuroda!
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:59 AM MST up reply actions
Eduardo Nunez
Curious if Nunez would be of any value at 2B and if so what might it take to get him from NYY? Could he hold down the fort until. Story, Herrera or Rutledge are ready?
Also, out of the box thought – any chance at all that Jason Bay could have any value? Mets are trying to get rid of him and for a song and a dance he might be an interesting bounce back candidate.
TGFPR!!
by jlot10 on Dec 10, 2011 9:43 AM MST via mobile reply actions
I like the Nunez idea
But I think so do the Yankees so not sure what they would want. I’d give them Smith which should open the door for them to trade Swisher and save $10 million.
No, to Bay. Massively over paid and massively sucked since signing that contract.
I went with Kuroda....
since we have only one pick. I could have gone with Cuddyer just as easily but, I think we need help in the starting rotation. All of these options scare me a little bit. I don’t want to see another chapter of Wigginton or Morales type fail. Let’s hope we see either some nice surprises in Spring Training or we get a FA that turns into another Cargo -like player
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Will the good 2012 ever get here?
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The A-Rod quotes are getting sickening.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 9:57 AM MST up reply actions
Which is why I'm posting them
Tomorrow’s is actually a good quote from him (my opinion)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
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JFK
Well, a Merry Christmas to you too! ;)
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:12 AM MST up reply actions
I actually
think it’s funny to laugh at what he said in the past when they don’t apply anymore
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
A question for the experts....
…..will this team ever go after a top tier star via trade for FA ever again? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just curious. “Small” market teams do it occasionally (see Florida and Milwaukee), but will the Rockies ever do it again?
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
Didn't they grab a pitcher last year?
…sorry can’t look it up right now (maybe Grienke)? But that really isn’t the point of my question….sorry if that is incorrect.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
Those were trades
and they seriously hurt their future with those trades
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I still liked the idea
but they had an expiring window with Fielder.
We don’t really have that window now that Tulo and Cargo are locked up, and Ubaldo is gone.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 10:07 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Also true
Had the Rockies had the top prospects to make those trades, even with Carlos and Troy around, it would have been tempting but they also have huge holes now where those prospects are coming up so I can’t really advocate for the trade.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
It's a possibility next year though
say we go through 2011, and White, Pomeranz, Chatwood, Gardner, Bettis, Anderson, Matzek are all tearing up their respective leagues. We extend Chacin after he rebounds from his bad half of 2011. We’d have the extra arms to acquire an impact player.
We’ve accumulated so many potential arms that it’s not out of the question that we can start trading away surplus once a rotation has been established. Cream rises to the top, we trade away the depth.
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That sounds about right
But it will have to be next year, which would fit really well with our 2013 time frame (assuming that’s what it is at this point)
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"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
by jrockies on Dec 10, 2011 10:50 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Not necessarily
With two wild cards and a weak division, we actually could compete next year. Am I the only one here who thinks that? Damn … people usually say I’m too pessimistic about things.
If we sign Cuddyer to hit 5th, then make a trade for a decent SP or a 2B, I don’t know if I write us off in 2012 at all.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
I've maintained we'd be "competitive" since the Ubaldo trade
Now that’s a deliberately opaque term, but I am truly fascinated by what next season brings. I don’t think we’ll be an embarrassment.
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I agree, depending on further moves and a bit of luck in young player development.
It’s not likely, but not that far-fetched, either.
Oh no
I think we can compete next year and I’m waiting on the Rockies to make a move to show myself that this is true. Right now no, the next 5-6 weeks will tell me a lot about whether I should think the Rockies can compete next year.
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"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Miami's not actually a small market, they just had small revenue
and that revenue situation suddenly brightened for them by getting out of a lease with Huizenga at Dolphins stadium, and into a lease that’s subsidized by city taxpayers at their new park. They are not a good example to compare the Rockies to.
Milwaukee, on the other hand, is probably a very good case of a what a small/mid-market team could do. The Rockies really shouldn’t be as afraid as they’ve been to make trades like the Brewers have for Greinke, Marcum and Sabathia before that. I think what’s held O’Dowd back so far is this thought of being perpetually outside contention, but the NL West is so mediocre that really shouldn’t be the case.
Plus they are the Caribbean's team
They will develop a following in Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic and the rest of the Caribbean and Venezuela. Some people will follow other teams, but the Miami team will be their natural ‘home’ team.
by Larry Walker on Dec 10, 2011 10:09 AM MST up reply actions
So is their a track record of teams winning the World Series....
….using our approach? The Marlins and D-backs won their first WS by bringing in top flight talent, sure it hurt them in the long run, but at least they won. Since the Twinkies in the early 90’s how many teams have won using our kind of approach? I’m just curious if this is really a recipe for winning it all or a recipe for being on the fringe.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
I'm not sure that I would cite Arizona and Miami has healthy organizations.
I think the goal is healthy organization that puts an entertaining, competitive product on the field every year. Winning the World Series would be great. But, if you have to choose, and most teams do, the former is preferable to the latter.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:17 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm really not sure.
Attendance-wise, it’s pretty clear that fans care more for the perpetual fringe teams like Minnesota and Milwaukee than they do the build a power beyond your ability to pay for it and then collapse teams like the Marlins and D-backs.
It's not quite fair to mix those teams.
Milwaukee and Minnesota have long-standing traditions. Miami and Arizona have little tradition in transient markets. It’d be fairer to compare the Rockies with those teams.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:21 AM MST up reply actions
I do realize this factors a bit, but I think that argument gets overplayed.
Both Miami and Phoenix aren’t new to MLB baseball, Spring Training’s been happening in those cities for as long as the MLB has been in either Minnesota or Milwaukee. I really think that the consumer market favors teams that try to keep some stability. Fans tend to be more loyal to players than they are smart about them. This is part of why O’Dowd’s offseason of trading three established regulars is incredibly risky given the relatively high attendance last season. It would obviously be much worse with Cargo or Tulo moving on, but the lineup instability will add woes to an attendance that already figured to drop due to the team’s 2011 record.
I completely agree with you on what should be a team's goals.
I just think the comparison isn’t quite fair. I mean, there are two generations of Twins fans who saw two World Series victories. And I think Spring Training only exacerbates some of the issues of transiency and loyalty.
Really though, I completely agree with the important part.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:39 AM MST up reply actions
I don't think CDI, Street, or Stewart drew any fans
I agree if we’re absolutely awful next year it’s going to hurt attendance, but then again, we were pretty much bottom of the barrel last year, too.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:48 AM MST up reply actions
You only need to look at various Purple Row reactions to the trades, particularly CDI and Street,
to see how wrong you are in that opinion. Look at the FanPosts. Stewart had a lot of fans too, although not as many post here. This will impact people’s game time decisions to buy tickets. Player stability has a lot more to do with attendance than people realize, there have been studies that show this is the case.
I'm not sure I'd use the Row as a good indicator of general fan reaction.
There were projections of doom of the Ubaldo trade. Those never came to fruition because we’re a different breed.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:54 AM MST up reply actions
The blog is large enough now that we're a sampling of the larger Rockies fan population.
And while our cross-section skews to the somewhat more well read fan, we do have enough of the general fanbase at large that comes to get a feel of their reactions.
I wish you were right
But I think you overestimate the knowledge level of the average Rox ticket buyer. Unclear sometimes if they even care what sport they’re attending! Not that that’s unusual in MLB.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:58 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
No I think she's right
The average ticket buyer is one who wants to go see the Rockies play and knows who the players are and some basic statistics. I think you’re looking at the people who just want to go and hang out on a gorgeous night at the ball park with some friends without any care in the world.
Yes, we here at the Purple Row are more well versed in the happenings of Rockies baseball but the “casual fan” knows what is going on.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'll agree and disagree
I actually had a co-worker talk to me about both the Iannetta and Street trade. And I know he is a casual fan. So, they do have an impact as they were known names who were on the team, and now are not. However, they aren’t names who put butts in seats at Coors. Guys like Tulo, Cargo, helton and Ubaldo do/did.
I've
had three or four guys at my work talk to me about it and ask my opinion because they know I’m much more into than they are. I also agree that it’s the guys you mention that put butts in seats, and the opposing team on a given day.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Yep
Although these changes do add up. By it’s self, moving a guy like Iannetta or Street isn’t going to change the average fans perception of the club by much. But when you move Iannetta Street, Stewart, and possibly Smith within a few weeks of each other, it does created a perception of re-building/non competing. It adds up to be something pretty significant. This is why they need to get a big name player back soon.
Exactly this.
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This cumulative effect is what I'm talking about, so I don't know why you'd be in disagreement with me.
I already said Tulo and Cargo were the bigger draws.
Everyone agrees
This doesn’t happen often
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I don’t. So, no.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 11:09 AM MST up reply actions
Not just the cumulative effect of these moves
I think the perceptions of one offseason can be overcome pretty quickly with most of the fanbase (the folks who are still angry about Matt Holliday being the exceptions to the rule). Where I think a team runs the risk of alienating a fanbase is if those kind of changes become a pattern. Fans will deal with Iannetta, Street and Stewart being gone. But if in 2-3 years they get attached to Rosario, Brothers and Arenado, then see those guys gone and are asked to invest emotionally in their replacements, at some point that pattern ends up leaving the fans feeling disconnected from the team on the field.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 11:55 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
All I know is that
many folks predicted a drop in attendance because of the Ubaldo trade and how important he was. The Row was used as an indication of that as well. That didn’t happen. That’s just one instance, but it si more support for the fact that most fans aren’t really tuned into things like that.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 11:08 AM MST up reply actions
The effect
of trading a player like Ubaldo will be felt more this year than it was at the end of last year. When he was traded, most of the tickets for the rest of the games had been sold.
No. The walkups were still huge.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 11:13 AM MST up reply actions
it's Lodo in the summer
People just want to pregame at Coors before heading to the bars.
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This is part of it
The fan base here just likes to be outside during the summer and early fall. At times, they seem to be completely oblivious to the Rockies and just enjoy a day outside. Like a band playing in the park. They don’t care who they are, they just sit down, tune them out, and enjoy the day.
Try this.
The Pirates still have fans. Most of the people here are like that. Whether they are well-read or not, they would support the team even after two decades of futility and more sell-offs than I can count.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
The key word is "most"
and we do get a lot more casual fans than you’d realize that read, but don’t post. Plus the reactions here might not lead to fewer ticket buys among Purple Row users, but they will point to that impact among the casual Fanbase. Nobody writes a Fanpost regarding how hurt they are that Felipe Paulino is leaving, so you can pretty much guess a zero effect with him, but with Street and CDI it’s as plain as day to me (I follow this type of reaction on Twitter, too, and it’s the same thing.)
Typically it takes two full seasons with a team for a player to start having this entrenched effect among casual fans, although it can happen sooner if the player is a heavily touted prospect or take longer if they’re a reliever or bench player. All three players I’ve talked about qualify, though.
What if their replacements turn out to he nice guys who play well?
I think you’re overthinking this.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 11:27 AM MST up reply actions
Then their replacements too, would have that same impact two seasons down the road.
Immediately? No. I’m not overthinking this, winning is a leading indicator to attendance, not the other way around. Fans don’t know that a replacement is going to be a nice guy who plays well until he actually does for awhile.
PR and Fanposts posters are not a random sample of Rox ticket buyers
Not even close. Most of the people who post on fan sites are going to go to games come hell or high water, and even if not they’re small in number.
Most people who go to games know Cargo and Tulo and Helton. The rest is filler.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
Again studies have shown what I'm saying is true.
It’s true that Tulo and Cargo and Helton have a much larger box office effect, but CDI, Street and Stewart weren’t unknown to most casual Rockies fans.
Finally, don’t get me wrong here, but I think too, that you might be speaking from a male perspective, on this and not considering the female ticket buyers. I know that males make the bulk of the attendance, but, losing three of the more attractive players on the team does not help the other sex’s decision making process. In general, I think women do get attached to players and team stability more than men, and I recall reading that in one of those studies, but I’m having a hard time finding it right now.
Ha! You're absolutely right, I did not consider that
My small circle of female Rox fans would tend to disagree, I think. The only player I can think of they would hate losing because of the attractiveness factor is Cargo.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
Cargo would definitely be a bigger loss in that department, I think.
He’s of course a star player too, though, so there will be a muddling of which effect is which.
My 8-year-old kid was a fan of all three of them, and Ubaldo. More than he is a fan of Tulo or Helton.
We don’t live close enough to Denver to go to games regularly, but he’s told me that he doesn’t want to watch the Rockies this year.
That could easily change with a winning season, but he probably won’t forget the disappearance of his first favorite player (CDI).
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
by glaucophane on Dec 10, 2011 11:09 AM MST up reply actions
And this could impact the family decision making process on where to spend entertainment money, right?
Particularly if you were close enough? Young fans too, get attached to individual players.
Yep. And even from far away, when we go to Denver, do we go to a Rockies game, or to see dinosaurs at the Natural History Museum?
Dinger’s tracks don’t count.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
by glaucophane on Dec 10, 2011 11:12 AM MST up reply actions
Giambi makes it possible to do both at once
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by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 11:57 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
There is a loose connection between this and the macro-effects.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 11:14 AM MST up reply actions
our approach
doesn’t seem to work anymore. and the fans would love a world series, but honestly I/we just want one single division championship, and we should spend to make it happen while Cargo and Tulo are here. So Kuroda would work, and I would bet we get Cuddyer in a week.
Staring out the window, waiting for spring.
I think O'Dowd's completely right to do things the way he does.
As soon as the Dogs are sold, they turn into Yankees NL.
I put down Brandon Phillips
I know it hasnt really been discussed, but i would like another veteran with some passion in the dugout. Plus, his bat and speed would be nice in the 2 hole to help set up tulo and cargo. Doubt this would happen since he is so old though
God I would love that
He’s a dream acquisition. But sounds like the Reds are about to extend him.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:53 AM MST up reply actions
hes only 30
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reply fail
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All this talk about a 2 hole hitter....
Why can’t Helton bat 2nd?
Excellent eye for pitches.
Good patience and plate discipline.
Better than average OBP.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 10, 2011 10:56 AM MST via mobile reply actions
Untraditional = Tracy not interested
He can’t run, which means a handful of times a year he’s going to cost Cargo an extra base on a line drive in the gap. Which of course means we can’t do it.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:57 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
If thats such a concern, the bat Carlos 2nd and Todd 3rd
You have to get your best hitters the most PA’s as possible
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 10, 2011 11:07 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Use SABR logic instead of
Tracylogic™? That doesn’t compute.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
If Helton hits like first half of last year
That would be fine, actually.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 11:21 AM MST up reply actions
If Fowler gets out and the #2 guy gets on,
I think you want someone who can go from 1st to 3rd. It’s possible, but It’s not really ideal.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:59 AM MST up reply actions
Doesn't play second
otherwise I got nothing
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I've been a fan of this idea since, like, 2006
But it runs contrary to Rockies managerial ethos, as other comments have noted. The problem is, Tracy et al still see “contact” and “scrappiness” and “handling the bat” as more important than OBP from the two hole.
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
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@Paul_Franz
My blerg
I voted for Cuddyer, but...
signing Cuddyer presents two potential problems. First, he would have to want to play third. I know he has player third in the minors. Is it what he would prefer? As a free agent he has the luxury of looking for fit as well as dollars. The Rockies proposition would go something like this. "Mike we would like you to play third in 2012 and until June 1 in 2013 when we hope to bring up Arenado. Then depending on how things have evolved we would either move you to second or the outfield.
And what kind of contract would it be anyway. Probably around a budget straining $10 million a year. At 33 this is Cuddyer’s peak value, so he is going to go for at least three years, possibly as many as five.
I think he would be a great addition, I just doubt that OD would pull the trigger on this.
More likely is trading for the 37 year old Placido Polanco. He has one year left on his contract at $5.5 million. His defense is solid. His hitting is suspect, but he doesn’t cost a lot of dollars and there is only a one year commitment. He might also return in 2013 as a free agent at second or in a backup capacity for lower dollars. He would be 38 in 2013 and his skills are already fading.
Reasonable fills the immediate need at third, reasonable 2012 dollars, no long term commitment, doesn’t block Arenado and the Phillies seem likely to want to deal him. We also could still sign an impact FA starting pitcher.
This, or some similar move for an imperfect veteran, is more likely than adding splashy FA dollars and years. We are filling in pieces around our core of Tulo and Cargo. We are not adding a new FA core piece.
I don't want to be poking holes in your argument
But, 1st, why does he have to only play 3rd. RF is looking like it will be open. 2nd, all reports are saying it will take 3 years to sign him, not 5. And 3rd, it’s been reported many times that the club isn’t interested in Polanco due to concerns that he can’t play 2nd anymore. The perception is that the team is more concerned with 2nd at this juncture.
Why would Cuddyer play third more than once in a while?
He’s being courted as the everyday right-fielder. The time is done with Smith and will use him as a trade chip if they can sign Cuddyer.
And I believe the FO said (through Renck) that they’re not interested in Polanco, mostly because they don’t want to spend big bucks on a 3B and they don’t think he can play second. Him being available is dependent on the Phils signing Ramirez, anyway.
Cuddyer’s looking for 3/27 maybe as high as 3/30. Certainly not more than 3 years. Given what he’s said about the Twins the last few days, I’d put the chances of him signing here at 75% or better.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
Given what he’s said about the Twins the last few days
The franchise, or his new children?
Seriously though, I must have missed a link. What did he say?
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Yeah, I want to know too
I would put it about 50/50. I think the room for both teams to bid is pretty damn close, with bonuses and options being the big difference. The Rockies may offer a slightly better chance to compete for the postseason, but he is familiar with the Twins.
He's more or less questioned their commitment to winning
He’s also looking for about $2 million more than they’re offering, which suggests to me that the Rockies have probably implied they’d go that far.
Thats funny
Cause us fans are questioning our commitment to winning as well.
by mkorpal on Dec 10, 2011 11:37 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't have a new GM who has vowed to slice payroll
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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and that awful, terrible mauer contract
arenado: it's Rockie for future
That he's concerned about them competing in the next few years
Also, although this may be the writer’s opinion (I can’t remember) that he wants to hit in a better hitting park.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks, I hadn't seen that part.
It’s definitely sounding like we offered him around 3/27.
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I also think that he's hinting about bolting for here.
Not getting my hopes up too much yet, but the signs were more encouraging yesterday. I think he’d prefer to stay in Minnesota, but our offer might be just enticing enough.
I hope you are wrong about this ...
Just like you are wrong about everything else ;) (DOH! Schmidt!).
I really don’t think Cuddyer is the player many of you think he is … bad defense everywhere … not a consistent 3WAR player of last year, on the wrong end of the aging curve. And see Deacs post below.
by Traindogger on Dec 10, 2011 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
I've seen Cuddyer in person a lot over the last two years
He’s a terrible bet to hold up over three years, and he was awful in 2008 and 2010 (combined .8 fWAR). Also, his willingness to play 2B and 3B does not translate to an ability to play those positions. Except for last year, the defensive metrics say that his OF defense is bad. He played the equivalent of 12 games at 3B last year, the first experience he’s had there since ’05.
Target Field is not nearly as expansive an outfield as Coors, and still he can’t react and catch up to basic balls hit to right. He’s a Gardenhire favorite because of the willingness to play different spots, but that leads to managers doing stupid things (like Cuddyer playing center field, which was awful to watch).
counterpoint:
I would rather pay Cuddyer 9mil next year than Aaron Cook. It’s not really raising payroll, just making it more productive.
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 11:41 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd rather pay the Hammer that amount than Cuddyer.
Just not sold on him.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
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by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
Agreed, but...
there are, I’m assuming, other things we can do with the $9m. Unless we plan on trading him if we’re not in contention (which could be difficult with a 3 year deal), I’d rather 1) wait for a better signing, or 2) do nothing, pray for a miracle, and then use the savings in-season to trade for a need.
I would be okay with a reverse-Dodgers deal as well
Front load the first year, or include a signing bonus. That way, he gets cheaper as his production level likely decreases and Tulo and Cargo get their built-in raises.
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Not a bad idea.
Also a more valuable trade chip. Part of my fear about Cuddyer is that Tracy will think he can play the infield regularly. Also, I just don’t like watching him play. And maybe it has something to do with the cold up here right now.
A lot of it may be irrational.
Big undervalue
He was an all-star last year (which is saying something for a hitter in the AL), and Target is not a good hitting park. He will be a solid 5th hole hitter for us, I have zero doubt. His defense does suck though (although not as bad as Smith).
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 11:42 AM MST up reply actions
He's had two recent years where he's basically had zero value
And his numbers last year were greatly inflated vs lefties (.420 wOBA).
I'd take Cuddyer over what we have
But, I think I would still rather have Willingham. They are both defensive liabilities who probably won’t age well, but Willingham has been much more consistent with the bat and will probably cost less.
THIS
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
To expand just a bit
I’m shock they are not pursuing Willingham at all. Perhaps they are just hiding their pursuit better than Cuddyer as to throw off other teams, but the fact that they flat out denied interest is a bit of a shock. it just seems like he will take less to sign, maybe closer to two years, 16 million vs the 3/27-30 we have heard for Cuddyer, while providing similar value.
I bet it's a hitting approach issue
Willingham is more of a low average, low contact, high power guy. We’ve seen plenty of those around here.
Cuddyer should hit for a better overall average.
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Average wise
They are not too far off career wise, .272 for Cuddyer vs .262 for Willingham. Although Willingham has much worse strikeout numbers, which they may also be trying to avoid.
OBP: .361 vs .343
SLG: .475 vs .451
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I was talking more about the strikeouts
this front office has seen enough of the high strikeout, high power guys.
Stewart, Iannetta, Wiggy
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by Muzia on Dec 10, 2011 11:54 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
basically this,
I think the FO also sees it as a hedge against the Coors hangover effect on the road, although I’m not sure how much study they’ve done into that. I do think it makes some sense theoretically.
see my BR links below
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:52 AM MST up reply actions
maybe them denying it shows they are really intersted
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:50 AM MST up reply actions
If we sign Willingham, who I like
Because I saw him play for the Nationals, who plays third?
by Larry Walker on Dec 11, 2011 7:11 PM MST up reply actions
One last thing to say before I leave for work
I like the idea of adding one of these two players. I really like the idea of having three starting outfielders and no platoon players. However, I do agree with those who are cautious. They have above average bats, and both have good points. But they have had major knee injuries and are already known as poor defenders. I can certainly see both becoming DH type players over the next few years. There is certainly risk in both DL time and in fielding that becomes a joke. But, I really want to see a good 2012, and I think both could contribute heavily to that by providing a stable bat in the lineup, which Smith has not. And considering what looked like a solid market for Smith, would allow us to use Smith as a trade chip to help fill another hole.
It's definitely risky...
One of the reasons I think Cuddyer’s a better player than his projections or his f-WAR indicate is that he admittedly plays so often through injury. 2010 with torn ligaments in his knee, his defense was atrocious, but after he had surgery to fix that it was decent last year. I think he’ll be underpriced relative to value because of his stats, but because of his injury history, he’s a tricky bet. Still one that I’d take, though.
He was bad before the knee injury too.
In ‘08 and ’09. I’m on board with the idea that when you’re close, you have to bite the bullet on a contract that includes a bad year or two. But I don’t think the Rox are close without some big surprises the rest of the off-season or during the season.
2008 was such a small sample, though,
and again, because of injury. I think healthy, Cuddyer’s not nearly as terrible an OF as he’s made out to be. The key will be to get him to admit if he’s in pain so that he won’t play and hurt the team.
2006 is his biggest RF sample
UZR/150: -5.1
2007 and 2010 were his only seasons with an above average UZR, and he was above average only by tenths of a point.
He’s not a good outfielder, by statistics or visually. He’s not Brad Hawpe, but he’s too close and too old for comfort.
I never said that he was good, just not nearly as terrible as he's made to sound.
When healthy, he’s not likely to hurt the Rockies in the OF, yet many here are making comments that imply he will.
Right, and I'm disagreeing by saying that he is terrible
He is spoiled milk in your morning cereal. He is stepping in dog poop and tracking it on to white carpet (though those people deserved it for having white carpet. He is 40 MPH wind on a 0 degree day. He’ll be worse than Smith in RF, and Tracy may get the idea he can play the IF.
Also, why does it have to be about “not hurt[ing]” the Rockies? Why can’t we find someone like Pagan, who will help the defense and not hurt the offense? With Slowey at #5, they’re going to need all the OF defense they can get.
Yeah, this is why I'm saying that you're actually engaging in the kind of hyperbole
that will keep his relative cost down. That’s fine, but Cuddyer’s a better player than you’re indicating.
Thankfully for him, I'm not an old white man employed as a GM
who doesn’t know how to work a computer.
He’s a fine hitter, but he’s neither a fit for the team nor worth $30M over three years.
I wouldn't pay him that much either.
I actually don’t think he’s worth the $27 million that I would go up to, but I do think that defensive disconnect between his injury deflated numbers and what his actual value likely is makes him more attractive than most.
2008 was not the only year he played baseball
He was awful overall in the OF in 2006, 2008 and 2009.
Aside from being right handed and nominally an OF, how does he improve the team at that cost?
The only long-term good he would add is the prospects we’d get in return after trading him.
I'm confused
What I mean is that his numbers might have been injury deflated in 2010, but he was also bad in the OF in 2006, 2008 and 2009.
Again, 2008 he hardly played at all.
When healthy, he’s a slightly negative (-5 runs to zero) defender in the OF. Given his bat, that doesn’t hurt a team. This is why I think he flies under the radar with everybody who owns a computer will be misled by what they see according to FanGraphs.
He played half a season in 2008
A season in which, along with 2009-2011, I saw him live numerous times.
He’s slow to react, he takes bad routes, and he looks like Hawpe when trying to deal with the RF wall.
I actually think he'll spend one season in the OF in Colorado
And I don’t think it’s going to be as terrible as you’re indicating, but after that he’ll become primarily a first baseman.
No, I see Giambi retiring.
Helton was down to 124 games last season, and obviously winded at the end of them. I expect that attrition to continue next season, he might play 110, but at that point Cuddyer should probably become the regular and Helton the reserve.
I may get shot for saying this on this website
But I’m okay with neither. Both seem like they are too pricy for their talent/age. trade Smith and play a CarGo, Fowler, Colvin, Wheeler, Blackmon outfield. That outfield is cheap young and talented, as well as deep. Use Smith to get Jurrjens/Volquez. I don’t care if Wheeler has to be used, we could sign Gomes to platoon with Blackmon. With Volquez/Jurrjens, we have a legitimate rotation. Lemahieu/Young/Nelson 2B platoon lasts until Rutledge comes from the minors midseason. I say let Arenado start the year @ 3B if he’s ready and if he’s not then let Pacheco play until he is. This way we have money for players we actually value in the future. Not for fill ins who’s salaries we regret later
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
LOL, you all are hilarious
I think you could talk yourself out of anything …
I think Albert Pujols has declined in value each of the last three years, and if form holds, he’ll only produce a 3.5 WAR this year. So he totally sucks and even if we could have signed him it would have been a bad idea …
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 1:50 PM MST up reply actions
Compare: Then opinions
Willingham: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willijo03.shtml
Cuddyer: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cuddymi01.shtml
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Now that we have Colvin (who by no means is a savior for us) to possibly play LF and if the Prado thing don't work out.
Wouldn’t sending Smith to Boston for Lowrie be a good thing? They need a RF and we need a 2nd baseman.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I hadn't heard that. Thanks.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 12:05 PM MST up reply actions
speaking of boston
is jd drew a possibility to sign?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
there doesn't seem to be a declared market for Drew, Beltran, and Willingham
I bet one of those guys is available for a reasonable price this offseason
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
It's interesting to me that there is absolutely zero chatter about Drew from any team.
Willingham, Cody Ross and Beltran are at least blipping on the radar for some teams as fallback options, but there’s not even that with Drew.
I'm still very shocked
At the apparent lack of a market for Beltran. He may come in even cheaper than Cuddyer or Willingham, is as good, if not a better player. He has gone from extremely like at the trade deadline to left behind in the free agent market.
Heh, I hadn't even realized Beltran was on the market...
I’d love to see him in a Rockies uniform for a season or two.
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
Poo-Bah of the San Diego Padres in the Purple Row OOTP League.
@Paul_Franz
My blerg
I would laugh if the Mets happened to re-sign him this offseason at substantial discount
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
me too
i’ve been advocating beltran all offseason
arenado: it's Rockie for future
All aboard the Beltran train.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 10, 2011 12:37 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
The problem is that at the beginning of the FA period, the non-star players hold little leverage, but all the pricing power
So when Boras says that it will take more than $10 million per season on a four year contract to sign Beltran, nobody signs up. That’s why it’s quiet right now. As teams get more desperate, he’s hoping they’ll rise to meet him, but it could be that if he waits too long, he’ll have to sign a one year deal at a discount somewhere.
+1
I am a Beltran fan and would love it if his price dropped into our range. He’s got the red flag for his medical history but he had the best season of the FA outfielders last year, imo, and I would love to see him here in Denver from as a fan.
Sorry, this computer I am using is a mess when it comes to posting online. As a result, the end of that message got clipped.
I was trying to finish that off by saying as a fan I’d love it but he had a strong enough year in 2011 that I don’t actually expect it. I think he will be able to get a contract that is more than the Rockies are willing to invest.
I'd love Beltran.
I doubt he’d come cheaper than Willingham/Cuddyer though
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 10, 2011 12:29 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I think Beltran ...
Is a good bet for the Cardinals; after losing Pujols they need another bat and Berkman can slide to 1B, Beltran would be great on a 2-year $18/mil deal but doubt he signs that low in years and $$.
by Traindogger on Dec 10, 2011 12:32 PM MST up reply actions
Speaking of Red Sox...
…What’d they do with Darnell? Any hope we could bring him home? I know some people have him tabbed as a replacement player, and I didn’t see enough BOS play to tell me otherwise, but I have a thing for guys who grew up here…
OT: Brandon Roy retires for medical reasons
perfect example of why long term contracts are dangerous
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
via Morosi
Source: Rafael Furcal’s two-year deal with #STLCards will “likely” come in around $14 million.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Jackson + Furcal + Beltran for the price of Pujols? Yeah, much better.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
i thought they didn't have room for jackson
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I think they have to do it but I question whether Furcal is worth it at this point. He’s forever injured and his play has been in decline. I know he finished the season strong in STL but it his performance in the playoffs was a not too inspiring.
it's that bad? Oy.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
and you guys complain about Helton
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Yeah, if we're going to compare him to Furcal
we’re going to have to start calling him the Iron Horse
I love how everyone one just disappears now that the meetings are over.
I figure it would be busier in here.
bq. It must be the weekend.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
It isnt letting me blue box stuff. UGH
Isn’t it bq.?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I realize that joke probably came across a lot meaner than I intended,
I’m sorry if that’s the case. I really was just teasing.
I've done it like 3 times.
It must think that’s 3 times too many.
I get teased on here all the time because I’m one of those Rockies fans that come up with dumb stuff to talk about.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
The preview
button is really helpful at that point.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Yea. Sometimes I forget about that.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
You're not the only Rockies fan that talks about dumb stuff
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
sometimes I do wonder.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Meaning we all talk about stuff other people might
consider dumb. I wouldn’t worry so much about it :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Oh I'm not worried about it.
I love it here and wouldn’t rather be anyplace else on the internet.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Cat' s rlght. l know l've felt llke you many tlmes. guess that's why a "Z" button was lnvented :)
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
I think
you have to put a space between the paragraphs for it to work with bq.
because it works for me
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
LOL. It's ok. I forgot about the space.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
This is awesome
RT @BaseballHall: BBWAA Ballot Preview: Vinny Castilla debuts on Hall of Fame ballot
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Link
http://baseballhall.org/news/voting-news/mexican-league-major-leagues
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Does age really matter?
Castilla hit 35 home runs and led the league with 131 RBI in 2004, sparking a resurgence in his career at age 36.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Renck tweets
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
RT @ScottMCBSSports: Anaheim police department estimated 4,200 attending Pujols “press conference” today.
Wow
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Guess they had nothing else better to do on a Saturday
I wonder if Disneyland was empty?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 3:35 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Today was pretty busy at Disneyland, actually
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
PRMLB - Los Angeles California Angels of The Greater SoCal Area in Anaheim
Willingham
According to WTAM 1100’s Nick Camino, free agent Josh Willingham has narrowed his list of desired landing spots to the Twins, Indians, Rockies and Mariners.
Guess that means the Rays are out.
...too bad we aren't pursuing Willingham...
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Renck
in the article Brian listed in the Rockpile
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
It's like no one.....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
by SDcat09 on Dec 10, 2011 4:49 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
...sigh...
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I think he's probably a pretty clear second choice for both the Rockies and the Twins
And right now, they’re the two teams willing to spend the most money on an outfielder as far as I can tell.
it's not, but if it makes you feel better, I still think the Twins are the favorites to land Cuddyer,
which by default makes the Rockies the favorites to land Willingham. Right now it’s seeming the most likely scenario.
I think Willingham will do good in Denver.
We just need to give him a chance.
We all have see how former A’s player have had success there.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I'm sure he will do fine in Denver.
I just know that he’s not the Rockies preferred choice right now.
Prado would cost us too much
Murphy would cost us maybe 1 or 2 low to mid level prospects.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
We're talking about Willingham here, you brought Murphy up down below.
And I mentioned how cost efficient Murphy was about 8 hours before you
oh crap. I replied to the wrong thing. LOL
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I'd rather pass on Willingham
I think he’s a short sighted signing. If he requires a multi-year deal I think it would come back to haunt us. I just have this feeling he’s going to have this Brad Hawpe type collapse all of a sudden.
And looking at his numbers, he looks to be like world’s worst batter when hitting from behind. The splits between hitting in front of the count to behind is as drastic as Iannetta’s home/road splits. Though he does have other stats that do balance that out. Like his lines are pretty consistent with RISP to his overall numbers.
Ultimately, I just have this feeling that he’s a guy we sign and look back on and wish we hadn’t.
I actually agree, but it's more a hunch based partially on what seems to be an industry consensus
and what also might be a Cuddyer bias, so I don’t know if I trust my opinion on that.
i have a willingham bias
due to the nice increase in hrs, RH bat, decent fielding. but yes he does S]trikeout often, and can’t hit behind. and no he can’t play a corner infield in a pinch. I think we could use another nice power bat since there will be little reliable power coming from other positions.
I like Willingham, but against my like of him I think we should get Cuddyer.
Staring out the window, waiting for spring.
I think that's sort of where I'm at.
I’ve liked Cuddyer from the start, but also like Willingham and wouldn’t be terribly disappointed if that’s how it turns out (like I say someplace else, I actually think this is the likeliest scenario for the Rockies right now.)
The "industry consensus" is what gets me too
I mean NOBODY thinks Willingham is worth as much as Cuddyer. But his hitting numbers are if anything better.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:37 PM MST up reply actions
Oh you mean like Wiggington?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
mlbtraderumors MLB Trade Rumors
Mariners, Indians In The Lead For Josh Willingham bit.ly/utQZK5 #mlb
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 9:37 PM MST up reply actions
Funny how even in the comments of that story, fans of these two teams are so unexcited ...
What is it about Willingham? Dude gets absolutely no respect. Maybe it’s the late start his career had (didn’t play a full ML season until his late 20’s). The K’s. Who knows. But what makes me wonder if there might not be something to it is that these are AL fans who watched him have his career year in 2011. What did they see that makes them — even offense starved M’s fans — not want a guy who hit 29 HR’s and drove in 98 runs last year?
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 10:06 PM MST up reply actions
THIS CAN NOT HAPPEN.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111210&content_id=26143120&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb
We need to do what we can to get this guy. They are willing to trade him and we have to block the Dodgers from getting him.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
The Dodgers are trying to build a roster made completely of utility infielders
if they are willing to trade something of value, I say let them dig their own grave.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
so we miss out on another decent player.
The guy finished with .320 avg. I know that don’t count around here but its all I can go on.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Right now we have a lot of left handed hitting outfielders of variable skill and questionable starters too...
our strategy is a lot more nuanced.
He isn't an OF.
He would be a good alternative if we couldn’t get Prado.
Plus, he is mainly a 2nd and 3rd baseman.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I would really like us to get him
barring that, the entertainment value of watching the Doggers field a team of Ethier and 10 utility infielders might be worth the price of admission. Oh yeah, and Kemp. That’s not as amusing….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 5:44 PM MST up reply actions
DOD can't be sitting on his thumbs on this.
If we can’t afford Prado, which it sounds like we can’t, then get Murphy. I’m sure all it would take is a prospect or 2. He would be worth it. He is a good gap hitter and he can single and double pitchers to death. Couple that with Coors, and boy oh boy. He would be a good person to put into the 2 hole.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
the guy seems to have ligaments made of paper.
I mentioned him above already, and I’m not opposed to adding him, though.
yea, he had knee surgery last year but didn't Sizemore also. We sure seemed interested in him.
Link for Murphy. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda08.shtml
38 doubles is decent.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
He had surgery the year before too, on his other knee.
Sizemore only had the one. I like both players, I actually think the Rockies should be exploring what it would take to get either, again, if you read the comments to the Rockpile, you’ll see that I already said that about Murphy today.
I chimed in that also. I've been wanting Murphy in Denver for a while now.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
What is Colletti doing?
This move would have made a ton more sense prior to the Ellis and Hairston signings. And I also ready he was considering using him as a platoon in the OF with Etheir. Huh? Murphy’s value is tied directly in him being an infielder, imo, as an outfielder he becomes meh.
Me, I am definitely pro-Murphy to Denver. If all LA is offering is Tony Gwynn Jr we should be able to top that offer without even noticing what we gave up.
He comminted no errors in the OF last year.
and a total of 6 in the INF last year.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Let me correct myself.
10 in the INF last year
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Link
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/murphda08.shtml
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
1 game in the OF last year
He primarily played 1B once Ike Davis went down with his ankle injury.
Fielding is not his strength.
Yea, I realized that after I put that down.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
But it was one ERROR FREE game
and as we all learned in the great Dan Uggla wars of the first decade of the 21st century, fielding results in one game can be incredibly important…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 5:46 PM MST up reply actions
Right there with you Adam
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 10, 2011 6:12 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
roxman4ever:daniel murphy::oldfoagie:chase headley
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Sickels on the Cubs/Rockies Trade
In their first transaction, the Chicago Cubs under Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer traded outfielder Tyler Colvin and infield prospect DJ LeMahieu to the Colorado Rockies in exchange for third baseman Ian Stewart and right-handed pitcher Casey Weathers.
The two rookies in this trade are LeMahieu and Weathers, so let’s take a look at them.
D.J. LeMahieu, 3B-2B: LeMahieu is a 23-year-old infielder originally drafted by the Cubs in the second round in 2009 out of Louisiana State. A right-handed hitter, he is very adept at making contact and has some pop to the gaps, but his swing is tailored for line drives. Despite a 6-4, 205 build and inherent physical strength, he’s never shown much power, slugging just .399 in his minor league career (overall line .317/.353/.399).
He hit .358/.386/.492 in 50 games for Double-A Tennessee in 2011, followed by a .286/.328/.366 mark in 58 games for Triple-A Iowa. He hit .250/.262/.283 in 60 at-bats for the Cubs. LeMahieu’s best defensive position is third base, but he lacks the power typical of the position. He can also play second base and shortstop without committing excess errors, though his range is limited at those positions according to scouts. Personally I think his range may be a bit underrated. He can be a useful role player, and it is plausible (although not likely) that he could develop into a Freddy Sanchez-type regular statistically, although LeMahieu is four inches taller.
Casey Weathers, RHP: A 26-year-old reliever, Weathers was drafted by the Rockies in the first round in 2007 out of Vanderbilt. He was expected to develop into a major league closer, but he had Tommy John surgery in the fall of 2008 and has never been the same. He still hits 96-98 MPH on his best days and has a nasty slider, but his command is seriously fouled up. He posted a 5.32 ERA with a dismal 48/48 K/BB in 46 innings this year for Double-A Tulsa, although he allowed just 32 hits.
Weathers still throws hard enough to be an impressive reliever, but he can’t succeed without throwing more strikes. A change of scenery seems like a good idea, and perhaps the Cubs coaching staff can figure out some way to turn him around that the Rockies couldn’t. Since he still throws hard, he qualifies as an intriguing reclamation project.
Not much new here ...
… though I admit the SLG% for DJLM in AA last year surprised me a bit (in a pleasant way).
I think his power potential might be getting a little short shrift in some of these write-ups.
I’m not expecting 20HR, but that build should be capable of 15 fairly easily.
I knew his K/BB was bad
but only 32 hits? That would be impressive, if they didn’t drive in runs on walks
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I don't think hitters swung very much when ol' Casey came in
Not a lot of upside in trying to hit a 98 mph fastball when he’s probably going to walk you anyway … so I wouldn’t say that hit total is super impressive.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:31 PM MST up reply actions
LeMahieu's defensive analysis sounds a lot like Sam Mende.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
Ladies and Gentlemen. Your 2011 NL MVP.
Now what you going to do there Bud?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
HOLY CRAP! Braun fails PED test......
Oh wow, totally stunned……ESPN’s ‘Outside The Lines’ reporting NL MVP Ryan Braun faces 50-game suspension for PEDs http://es.pn/uZ7mOT
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
See above
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Really dude? I didn't even see your post. That minute is HUGE
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Oh I'm playing. We'll just call it a hivemind.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
works for me
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
we shall share credit.
So its been said, so shall it be done.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
OOF
Wow, that really stings for the BrewCrew.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
That doesn't sound bigoted at all.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Not my intent
Just saying…only a few Jews at the big league level, even fewer that are in the upper echelon, so those that do make it you find yourself rooting for.
I understand but you could see how it could be interpreted :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Without realizing I was Jewish I could see how some could question where I was coming from with that statement.
It's all good :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I'm gonna find me a NewCrew
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 5:53 PM MST up reply actions
clarification
Braun has tested above the normal ratio for testosterone. Appealing. Not a steroid positive.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Even so. It does not bode well.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Every individual naturally produces testosterone and a substance called epitestosterone, typically at a ratio of 1-to-1. In Major League Baseball, if the ratio comes in at 4-to-1 or higher during testing, a player is deemed to have tested positive. The sources did not indicate how high above the threshold Braun’s sample tested.
but, didn't they say it was of a synthetic type?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Yes
That initial test triggered further testing which revealed it to be synthetic.
I should have included that, my bad.
nah its ok.
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
If his appeal fails, ban him.
Let the players get an appeal (as they should)
But if their appeal is denied, ban them. The whole lot of them. I have absolutely had it with guys physically cheating their way through our sport. There is a clear line between things like stealing signs and tipping pitches at second base and things you do ON the field and other things that you actually do OFF the field.
There are legitimate good hard working guys, who bust their ass day in and day out in this sport who actually don’t use that shit.
If they are caught ban them..
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 10, 2011 7:21 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
The policy as we have it is fine.
Lifetime bans are overly punitive for a first offense, I think that 50 game number is serious enough to be more than a slap on the wrist, especially with the threat of an escalation for the second offense. I’m all for forgiving people if they learn from their mistakes.
by Rox Girl on Dec 10, 2011 7:28 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yeah, 50 games is a long time in baseball.
It’s a fitting punishment.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
Okay this made ma laugh via Twitter
nuggetsnews Benjamin Hochman
this. RT @molly_knight: M-V-P-E-D.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I LOL'D
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Can they strip Braun of his MVP if this turns out to be true?
71 today, 70 tomorrow, 69 on Saturday, 68 Sunday and 67 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
They didn't strip A-Rod of his after he admitted use.
Jason Giambi also has a trophy, and I’m guessing he wasn’t clean when he won. They’d have to do a lot of retroactive awards stripping to be fair. I don’t see it happening, nor do I think it should. He pulled one over on the voters, though.
Does this mean Braun can be stripped of his 2007 ROY award?
So Tulo can get what he really deserves.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
They're apoplectic over at Brew Crew Ball
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I'll bet
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Must be a very BlueCrew...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 6:35 PM MST up reply actions
Renck tweets on Braun
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Braun challenging the results. He faces tough odds. No one has won an appeal. Bad day for baseball. No one can dispute that
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He comes from Selig's old team...
…so maybe he’ll be the first :0
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
Ryan Braun positive PED Test
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
It's going to be very interesting watching how the Ryan Braun story unfolds,
that rumor erupted quickly, exploded in rage and now that news of the second test is coming out, there’s a wave of skepticism. It reminds me of this article I read in the Guardian about how Twitter was used to spread and knock down rumors of the London riots.
It's also fascinating that the news broke right before an onslaught of other notable events
the Heisman presentation and the Iowa debates, most notably. My Twitter feed has been overrun with non-Braun discussion.
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
Poo-Bah of the San Diego Padres in the Purple Row OOTP League.
@Paul_Franz
My blerg
It's still creating doubt in the Twitter-verse, which is the sort of thing I find fascinating
And then of course you have all the:
Keithlaw keithlaw
The highly enlightened soul that I am sees the media’s sanctimony over this and cries for the state of our Republic!
Which is of course unintentionally funny. (I might be paraphrasing his actual Tweets.)
Tom Haudricourt, btw,
Just spoke to someone familiar with the details of Braun’s test and was assured he will be found innocent. If so, horrible this leaked out.
It does seem that many were awfully quick to judge. Keith Law will probably be even more sanctimonious now that he might be right about this.
Sure, but if they tested the first test multiple times (including testing to see if synthetic)
I don’t see how a 2nd negative test (depending on the time frame) means much. Especially if it was after his season had ended.
Granted, it could also mean that he did take something unknowingly. But that just makes him incredibly stupid.
He wouldn't be the first athlete to fall into that category.
Braun is a spokesperson for a major fitness supplement company, Cytosport, and supposedly he uses a lot of their products. I’m guessing he’s only taking from an approved list of products, but who knows if there’s a tainted/crossed batch. There are somewhat innocent or at negligent explanations, which is why I think being condemnatory beyond the allotted punishment goes overboard.
I completely agree with you on the punishments.
I don’t have any problems with the punishment structure.
I know tainted batches are technically possible, but extremely unlikely. Which, if it is what happened, would make Braun incredibly unlucky.
Yep, I still think he's likely guilty of PED use given the evidence we have,
and the stereotype his endorsement of CytoSport and fitness heavy lifestyle bring to my mind. I just take a Devil’s Advocate stance to create reasonable doubt so people don’t go off the rails with their judgments.
by Rox Girl on Dec 10, 2011 8:23 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
If the BCS is doing the testing, a second test coming out negative would make him indisputably innocen...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 10, 2011 8:21 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Jeez, I wonder which party Haudricourt spoke to?
Of course Braun is going to deny, deny, deny. Especially as he’s fighting the ruling and probably even after, as he fights to hold on to his reputation/legacy/whathaveyou.
Personally, I’m bummed as he’s the first player I’d consider myself a fan of to get burned for PED’s. I would be thrilled to see him redeemed and there be a lab error but I don’t have my hopes up for that.
I always thought players juiced in the off season and the players were able to capitalize on the benefits throughout the season?
Part of the benefit of PEDs is they help a player recover faster..
so a 162 game marathon can feel like a sprint.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
I thought HGH also did that?
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Anyone know what the testing schedule is like?
Are these PED tests random? Do players have them every off season? I’m always fascinated by the notion that someone who knew he had taken a PED — we’ll see in this case — peeing in the cup anyway. I would think you’d be better off blowing them off until the residue is gone. Probably little to no punishment that way (that’s what the pro tennis players do … Rafael Nadal does it nearly every time.)
by BostonTransplant on Dec 10, 2011 9:34 PM MST reply actions
Everyone has probably gone to bed... However...
Call me cynical, but is there a possibility that the Brewers might be looking for an outfielder to replace Braun for 50 games or even longer if there is the possibility of a voided contract here? And, since they are also losing one of their LH hitters, they might also want that outfielder to be LH?
So, basically, what might they have that we want.
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Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
But what do they have that we want/need?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
That was my question at the end, J? ;)
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:25 PM MST up reply actions
Missed that detail obviously
I’ll look because I’m not familiar with their team as well
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I don’t know farms well enough to say.
At the MLB level, they have pitching, particularly of the innings-eating variety. They have a strong bullpen. They have bizarro Cargo!
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:28 PM MST up reply actions
But is that realistic?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Probably not.
Wolf might be though. This is the equivalent of the Rockies losing Tulo and having Cargo go down three months. If they just try to regroup in 2012, they might be willing to dump Wolf. He’s expensive ($9.5 million) but he has a team option in 2013.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:39 PM MST up reply actions
Pretty much the definition of innings eater
over 200 innings the last 3 years, 190 the year before.
Expensive though…
McGehee would go before Weeks. He’d also e of some interest. He played some 2B.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:42 PM MST up reply actions
I would take McGehee.
Can he play 2nd?
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:43 PM MST up reply actions
He had a very bad year last year.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:47 PM MST up reply actions
I think something like that would hinge on whether they get Ramirez. He has played 2B, but SSS.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:46 PM MST up reply actions
But he is a decent home run threat. Something we haven't had at 2nd in a long time
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:47 PM MST up reply actions
Would you give up Arenado for Weeks?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
No.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:47 PM MST up reply actions
Not no but HELL NO
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:48 PM MST up reply actions
Yes.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Wow.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:49 PM MST up reply actions
He's been worth 10 WAR the past two years and is controlled for 4 years
He’s a longterm solution to our second base problem. And we can always trade for Callaspo.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I'd give up Smith and a mid to high level prospect.
Just not Arenado
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:48 PM MST up reply actions
It doesn’t really matter. They wouldn’t move Weeks. It wouldn’t make sense.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:50 PM MST up reply actions
Why not?
They are losing Fielder, Braun is probably out for the first 50 games. Move him and start over.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:52 PM MST up reply actions
They need to utilize a surplus to try to make up for the loss of key components. They can’t give up more key components. They have some surplus pieces in their pen, in McGehee if they sign A-Ram, and possibly in their rotation.
They just on the Central. I don’t see them closing up shop quite yet.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:53 PM MST up reply actions
Is Weeks cheap
for the next 6 years and does he limit his strikeouts?
The answer is no to the first and not really to the second. Good power though and a decent OBP. Not what I would give up for a top prospect
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'm not looking at us giving up a prospect though.
This is specifically about making up for Braun’s lost production by acquiring something that could still be useful when/if he returns. Smith could do that, then platoon with Hart.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 10:57 PM MST up reply actions
Their only internal option would be to bring Logan Schafer up. Would they really want to start the clock on him? It might be cheaper to make an acquisition than to do that.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 10, 2011 11:06 PM MST up reply actions
He would be worth every pennt of that contract. I'd argue he's underpaid for the contract he has.
Strikeouts? The dude was worth over 6 WAR in 2010 and he’s in his prime!
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
No arguments here
and I wouldn’t mind getting him but to trade our up and coming 3B prospect isn’t what I want to do to fill our 2B hole. If we wanted to trade Rutlage and one of our LH OF that’s fine because we have plenty of them and Weeks would block Rutlage (for a time). This improves our team now and keeps the 3B option open in the future.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Much much easier to find a third baseman than a second baseman like Weeks
I wouldn’t even think twice about giving up Arenado for Weeks. You’re worried about third base? Acquire Callaspo or Bonifacio. Callaspo has 2 years of control, Bonifacio 3. I’d argue you acquire Bonifacio and Weeks and we never worry about 3rd or 2nd again until their contracts are up.
Jeez, I would trade anyone but Pomeranz, Chacin, Tulo, Rosario, or CarGo for Weeks. Even Fowler.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I agree and I love Arenado
and I would even do a Arenado/Rosario package for him
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
We wouldn't need to.
They have their future catcher in LuCroy. I think they’re happen with him.
I would call up Milwaukee and offer Arenado, Wheeler, Rutledge, and an arm not named Pomeranz or Chacin.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Talk about dumping some decent players.
Arenado-someone must not like him.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:17 PM MST up reply actions
More like man-crushing on Weeks
We complain about third base, and forget that second base has always been a position of woe for us. Weeks has already reached the WAR ceiling we hope out of Arenado.
We’re talking about a top 5 second baseman here, and one of those is certainly more valuable than a top 5 third baseman.
I love Arenado, but Weeks would solve more problems than Arenado.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
What would you give for Zobrist?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I wouldn't even bother
They would want Rosario as a centerpiece. Arenado has no use to them with Longoria, and I’m not sure that they would consider Arenado a centerpiece if they valued him as a first baseman.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
There is no way a player like Arenado leaves this team.
I agree with Matt’s players except for Rosario and Fowler.
I would trade Rosario and Fowler would not be traded.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:16 PM MST up reply actions
You are much higher on Bonifacio than me
Callaspo would be a nice pickup but now we’re talking about multiple trades which can get sticky. If we could get both Weeks and Callaspo then I would be fine with trading Arenado.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I just think acquiring a legit 5 WAR talent second basemen, even if he is injury prone, is a rare oppurtunity
It’s easier to find a good third baseman than a good second baseman, the same way it is easier to find a good second baseman than a good shortstop.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I also think Bonifacio benefits the team more than Callaspo
Allowing Fowler to move to the two hole where he belongs is HUGE.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I've always been of the idea the Rockies goal was to trade for Prado, sign Cuddyer, and add one last starter
The starter market is still very fluid, so I’m not worried on that front. I’m still holding to my belief that Smith+Wheeler gets a Prado deal done, but the Rockies have held tight to Wheeler so far. In the case of Prado not happening, my votes for Bonafacio, as I feel a true leadoff hitter would benefit the club immensely by moving Dex to permanently hit #2.
I’m pretty confident we get Cuddyer, and that his twins are holding up the deal. The Rockies don’t add Colvin to the roster unless they’re completely sure of acquiring Cuddyer.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I did some figuring.
In my fantasy baseball, if Arenado was in the majors. He would scored 1,607 points. That is more than Tulo and Cargo. There were only a few players that was above 1,600. Pujols only had 1,555 points. I hope he can translate these numbers actually over to the Majors.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Here are the ones over 1,600
Braun-1,632. Don’t count in my opinion now.
Fielder-1,730
Kemp-1,777
Votto-1,743
J. Upton-1,626
I would say that is pretty good company to be a part of. Granted, it was A+ ball but hopefully, it’s a good sign of something to really look forward to.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 10:58 PM MST up reply actions
Look at those numbers.
Kemp-1,777
Braun-1,632
That right there shows that Kemp had a better year but Braun still wins MVP. I’m not a fan of Kemp but he really got a huge screw job. Know, its only worse since Braun will get to keep his MVP and it wont be given to Kemp.
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 10, 2011 11:00 PM MST up reply actions
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