Sunday Rockpile: For some reason, Ryan Braun's positive PED test more interesting to media than Mike Jacobs'
The big news in the baseball world last night was that 2011 National League MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for synthetic testosterone and now faces a 50 game suspension pending appeal. There's too much righteous indignation from the media about this, but the prominent Internet writers that are quick to point this out are also going a bit overboard, particularly those that are embracing the idea that because the effect of steroids on the game can't be proven mathematically, that performance enhancing effects for ballplayers using PED's actually don't exist beyond a placebo effect.
This is foolish, and unscientific. There isn't a controlled study on the performance enhancing effects of steroids because physicians and scientists find it unethical to perform said research. Mathematical studies that show that power spikes during the time frame in question aren't out of the MLB's historical ordinary spend a lot of time and effort to ultimately prove absolutely nothing either way, without a more exact understanding how rampant (or not) PED use was during the periods in question. Skepticism is fine, but the evangelical denial of steroids' effects this in turn becomes really isn't.
****
There is one interesting quote from Dan O'Dowd in a Denver Post article about the Albert Pujols contract, in reference to a similarly scoped Troy Tulowitzki extension reached a year ago:
"...With Tulo, for example, we talked about everything. What if we change directions as a team? How will you handle good years and bad years? What if your skill level changes and we have to discuss a position switch?"
Within a year of Tulowitzki signing, the Rockies have changed direction, I don't think there can be any debate about that with three starters and a closer being traded away in the last six months (most in the last two weeks,) and another starting position player still on the block. At least Tulo was warned of that possibility. The next interesting part, of course, is that he's also been prepped for a possible position switch down the road. There's no reason to think about it now, but if Tulowitzki's skills decline and somebody like Trevor Story is ready to break in three years from now, maybe the transition won't be as awkward as the one we're seeing right now with Hanley Ramirez in Miami.
Speaking of one of those players traded, Ian Stewart's collapse last season remains a bit of a mystery. He does do a bit of finger pointing about it, however.
"I was never really a big change of scenery guy," Stewart said in response to a question. "I always felt like I fit in great with the Rockies when I was there. It just didn't seem like all the time I was always given the best opportunity to play."
Entitled to the end, Stewart still might not quite get it. I have little doubt that over a full season of at bats that his production would have been better than the small sample of misery we saw from him, but given how terrrible that start was, I have full confidence that it would have still been nowhere close to enough for an average team, let alone the contender the Rockies were thought to be heading into 2011. There isn't some special aura that surrounds MLB players who deserve full time at bats, with dozens of similar players seeking a handful of positions, a player has to produce to earn and keep a full time job in this business. Protracted slumps like Stewart's in 2011 can be devastating to a team, and to the franchise as a business. Stewart needs to understand that aspect, particularly now that he's in a large market where patience for struggling ballplayers is going to be in even less supply.
On the player acquisition front, all has been quiet while Rockies top free agent wishes Michael Cuddyer and Hiroki Kuroda make their decisions, and as we learn which teams were bluffing in trade demands leading up to tomorrow's non-tender deadline.
With the Yankees making a one year, $12 million offer to Kuroda, and the Red Sox about as interested, it seems highly unlikely that the Rockies would be the team to entice Kuroda to pitch for them next season. Cuddyer, on the other hand, seems a larger possibility as long as St. Louis doesn't make a similar overture to the OF/1B. However, even Cuddyer seems leaning to choose to remain in Minnesota unless Colorado or another team chooses to waste money extravagantly on him. The player simply isn't worth going too far out on a limb for with an alternative like Josh Willingham being nearly as good (or, if you're a firm believer in statistical projections, even better.)
Look for more trades today and tomorrow, however as teams make their decisions on who they feel they can afford in 2012. Joe Saunders is an obvious bluff by Kevin Towers, after Trevor Cahill was acquired there's no need or point in paying Saunders' expected 2012 salary for the D-backs, he'll be moved by tomorrow for relatively cheap. Meanwhile, Brian Sabean didn't even try to feign that Jeff Keppinger or Mike Fontenot were worth anything to a potential trading team by saying one or the other would be cut Monday.
Martin Prado and Jair Jurrjens, on the other hand, are interesting cases because they are valuable enough that you can't be sure if Frank Wren is bluffing or not in his apparent disinterest in anything but pie-in-the-sky offers. If Atlanta does have a budget to get under by moving one or the other, Wren's done a decent job of hiding that fact while building interest. That said, despite the decent poker face, he doesn't seem to be getting what he wants on the table for either player as other GM's like O'Dowd wait out the possibility that he'll have to move one or the other by tomorrow for a lowball offer that they've already given.
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I forgot to give the one Willingham link, also mentioned in yesterday's comments.
About him deciding between four teams, of which the Rockies are one.
Last night I asked about whether there was a scenario in which a Braun suspension might affect us.
It would seem like Seth Smith could be promising to them. He could provide immediate assistance in replacing Braun, then continue to hold value by platooning with Corey Hart. The most interesting piece that they might have is, in a situation in which they have to push for Ramirez, they sign him and can move McGehee. They might also be willing to part with Wolf, who is expensive but would be one-year rental. That move would also help them defray the cost of a Ramirez signing.
Any thoughts on this?
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A couple thoughts...
The more immediate impact may be that the Brewers ramp up their own interest in a player like Cuddyer (who would play OF and then move to 1B when Braun came back) which in turn could domino into the Rockies winding up overpaying for a Cody Ross type. This would be the worst outcome, but it should be considered about as likely as them pursuing Smith.
As far as matching up on a trade, the Rockies have really zeroed out their interest in 3B types that aren’t capable at second, so I don’t think McGehee would be on the teams’ radar.
McGehee has time at 2B. But I’d be lying if I said I knew how good he is there. His stats are good but there are SSS and, generally, I find defensive stats misleading.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:26 AM MST up reply actions
me too, regarding defensive stats.
I think the fact that the Brewers were sort of trying to squeeze McGehee to an unnatural position at second, much as the Rockies did with Stewart would be enough to turn Colorado off given his body type. He also seems like he might already be in a somewhat steep decline, ala Garrett Atkins. I’d guess the Rockies would be interested on a dirt cheap flier if there were minor league options with him, but Smith’s much more valuable right now.
Yep. It would include one of their stockpile of arms. I don’t know if we need that at this point though.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:37 AM MST up reply actions
I do think think this suspension could push them further into signing Ramirez and maybe that does create a need to open up payroll, making Wolf a good cash dump trade candidate.
I’d be down with a gamble on McGehee and Wolf if the price is right, McGehee moreso than Wolf. If Braun is suspended that’s 50 games that the Brewers don’t have to pay for, that might be enough savings that they might not feel pressured to do a salary dump which might not make that deal as cheap as hoped.
Latest rumor regarding McGehee I read was Texas trading Moreland to TB for Wade Davis and then going after McGehee for first base.
after another season of watching the Brewers
being stuck here in Wisconsin, I would really hope that we wouldn’t attempt to get Wolf. I have no stats to back it up this morning but when he is bad, he is REALLY bad. When he is good, he’s not too shabby. Just having seen the bad so often, he leaves a bad taste in thinking of going after him.
I don’t see the Brewers going after Cuddyer right now. He doesn’t fit in their win now plans. With still trying to get A-Ram, and wanting to keep Grienke and Gallardo next year, I don’t see them spending that money. I do see them trying to get rid of Wolf but more to someone like the Nationals or maybe even the Dodgers, and get a B+ level prospect back
I think a Wolf acquisition would be based
on his ability to eat innings in a one-year stop-gap to let our pitching depth mature. I think we are past this type of move at this point. I could still see a slim possibility of it happening though. He’s been pretty decent at Coors.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:35 AM MST up reply actions
The other reason
why I don’t see this happening is because of the salary. The Brewers would want to be dumping Wolf’s to free up flexibility elsewhere and the Rockies are not into taking it on for especially a one year rental.
I think for the Rockies to bite and take on Wolf’s salary, it would be a trade for an A-ball pitcher with little to no expectation of making anything for himself. And this is after the Brewers had their other acquisitions lined up
Wolf
Having lived in Philadelphia during Wolf’s tenure there I have seem him at some of his best as well as some of his worst, so I definitely understand your hesitation. And I wouldn’t mind this not happening by any means.
But as a one-year stop gap who can eat innings and has had decent success at Coors (which I was not aware of, which was a nice surprise) I’d be okay with the gamble if the price is right, and by right I mean low.
Aramis. Not Manny.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:54 AM MST up reply actions
Although I would respect
an F-This All-In approach to PEDs guys from a club.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:56 AM MST up reply actions
More on Braun:
A source told Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com that Ryan Braun’s positive test result was highly unusual and “never seen in the history of (baseball’s) drug-prevention program.”
There definitely seems to be something fishy in all this. While most guys who test positive proclaim innocence, there does seem to be a lot of smoke around this one …
by Traindogger on Dec 11, 2011 12:59 PM MST up reply actions
Tulo at SS
If Tulo’s skills decline quickly enough that he has to switch positions in around 3 years, look out, ‘cause we are in trouble. I’d hope that he could last at SS at least until his Age 34 season, here’s hoping that body type of his allows for that.
I think this depends on what we have available for shortstop at the time, or what's available on the market.
Tulo’s offense could play anywhere and still be an asset.
JFK's Quote of the Day:
“Enjoy your sweat because hard work doesn’t guarantee success, but without it, you don’t have a chance.” ~Alex Rodriguez
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Yeah. That’s funny. Nice.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:27 AM MST up reply actions
Better than the last two?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
The last ones weren’t bad—just gag-inducing.
This one is just straight funny.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:30 AM MST up reply actions
Where's the Mike Jacobs reference?
I wanted to read about him too
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
yeah
sarcasm doesn’t translate well on the internet, as my comment would also suggest. Maybe I should have put a :( after my comment and it would have helped.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Add Beltran for 9-11 mil/season, 3 years. Trade for Coghlan/Bonifacio/Keppinger..
I like Beltran a bit better than Willingham and Cuddyer. I’m sure Boras is trying to get more than that for Carlos right now, but eventually the price will decrease.
I feel like these two moves puts the team in a position to make a run NEXT season.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 11, 2011 9:36 AM MST via mobile reply actions
Beltran's a pipe dream for the Rockies still.
We could wait and see if he becomes more realistic as the market dries up, or move now on a bird in hand.
Yes waiting would be very risky..
But With Cuddyer leaning towards Minnesota, it might become realistic. It’s obvious the team will add an OF and IF, so we’ll see how this develops. I’m still wishing for my scenario.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 11, 2011 9:43 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
As much as I like Beltran
With his knee I don’t want to commit multiple years to him.
I only sign him if his market drops so much that he’s willing to take a one year deal with an option for a second.
And I don’t think that will happen. Just hope it does.
Not that
Cuddyer or Willingham don’t have knee issues as well. All three seem to have issues remaining healthy. But Beltran is still an all star caliber bat.
Cuddyer's and Willingham's knees are not in the same category
Beltran can’t really run anymore. Cuddyer and Willingham never could, but I don’t think they’re dealing with the bone-on-bone stuff like Carlos.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:23 AM MST up reply actions
Somewhat true.
But your talking about Cuddyer and Willingham, who also have major issues, and who also can’t be counted on to play a full season. Cuddyer seems to be in and out of lineups with hand and finger issues, while Willingham has hit the DL each of the last three years with a major injury.
And I guess my point
is I don’t see why it’s so horrible to go to three years on Beltran, but acceptable for Cuddyer or Willingham. Beltran’s knees may be a bit more concerning, but he is by far the superior player.
I agree he's better
But also left-handed, which hurts, and the bigger risk. I’d love to have Beltran, but all in all I think Cuddyer (especially) and Willingham, is the smarter investment.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:37 AM MST up reply actions
Guess so, now that I look
Ignore me.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
Beltran is switch hitter allbeit with better splits as a LHB
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
incorrect
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Either way if I was going to pay the same money for Willingham and Beltran; I'd take beltran.
He already knows his knees are shot and acted like he knows the signs now when he needs to rest them . Willingham is starting his knee troubles and acts like he can still play thru them, Beltran is the better athelete all things being equal and would be happy with him in RF and Carg0 in Left; as opposed to Willingham in LF and Cargo in RF
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I don't see any three of these guys
playing LF in Coors. It’s just way too much room for three guys who can’t defend.
Has Willingham ever played in RF?
I only remember him inLF
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
which is why you stash them in right
we lived with brad hawpe out there for years, after all
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Either way I think Beltran would have a greater impct when he plays with the benefit of taking a potentisl matchup away from Tracy
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
perfect for the 5-hole
arenado: it's Rockie for future
And his rest days gives who ever the extra outfielde is his chances to play
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Sorry guys I'm useing the back up keyboard today and you can see why it's the back up.
Some keys don’t work on a full time basis. Particularly the backspace delete and and insert keys. Afriend dropped hi coffee mug on the primary and totally wasted a 1/2 dozen keys.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
We probably don't _want_ to do that...
…I remain convinced that for this team, the ‘extra outfielder’ will remain Eric Young…
he's not left-handed, he's switch
and he’s a real switch hitter, too: for his career, he’s got a .370 wOBA vs righties, and .384 vs lefties. last year he went .391/.389
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I think either is a bit better of a bet to be healthy than Beltran
All three do have issues, though.
For what it’s worth, FanGraphs has Bill James projections of playing time of 128 games for Beltran, 142 for Willingham, and 152 for Cuddyer.
cuddyer fudges that by playing 1B and 3B
beltran would provide more value over 128 games than either of those two would in their projected totals; he’s a better hitter, defender, and arguably baserunner as well. it would be well worth the risk
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Fudging isn't the way I'd describe it.
The Rockies will definitely want a right handed hitter better than Ty Wigginton to take over for Helton some next season.
As I imply above, the real risk with Beltran is that he’s not actually available to the Rockies at all. With that quickly eroding PT, he’s not worth a 4 year contract over $10 million a year, which is apparently Boras’ sticking point right now, so I’m not sure what risk you’re referring to that he’s “worth.” The only way to get him cheap is to wait out a scenario that might not end up turning in the Rockies favor ultimately. The Rays were semi-successful with this strategy last season with Damon/Ramirez, but we’ll see.
I don't think even the Yankees would pay Beltran that
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
No on Beltran
He survived last year with those knees, but they’re a time bomb. Chances are good he’s out of the lineup more than he’s in. I think he knows that anyway and will almost certainly sign with an AL team so he can DH. The one possible exception I see is the Cardinals.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:21 AM MST up reply actions
Calling Stewart's attitude "Entitled to the end" is quite harsh...
and I fully disagree with such unfair characterization. He was telling the honest truth.
Tracy woud NOT give Ian the fairness of leaving him in the lineup, favoring Wiggy or whoever over Ian whenever there was an 0-4 the night before. He did NOT get a fair opportunity with just 122 ABs in 6 months. He now has a chip on his shoulder and will prove his naysayers on this forum and in the Rockies organization dead wrong with his new gig in Chicago. At least I hope he does. Shame on anyone who calls his thinking “entitled”.
The full quote, that I didn't cut and paste completely to avoid fair use issues:
“… I think this gives me a great opportunity to come in and be that everyday third baseman and to get those 500 or 600 at-bats that I need to be able to be successful.”
What do you call a player that thinks they deserve 500 or 600 at bats when they performed at the level Stewart was performing if not entitled? I really don’t think it’s that harsh at all.
I call that player "competitive"...
He clearly has a fire burning within him, and a self-confidence that belies his public passive and laid back demeanor. Obviously, Ian thinks he’ll put up the numbers deserving of an everyday player that gets 500-600 ABs, and I for one hope he does it.
ANY pro athlete, I might add....
who believes in himself and has competitive desire would say “You give me full playing time, and my numbers wil be there at the end”. What is “entitled” about that?
It's also entitled. I'm fine with the confidence, I'm fine with competitiveness, but if a player stinks, they stink.
By switching
“gives me a great opportunity to come in and be that everyday third baseman and to get those 500 or 600 at-bats that I need to be able to be successful"
to
“thinks he’ll put up the numbers deserving of an everyday player that gets 500-600 ABs”
you’re twisting his words to project what you want to see rather than what he’s actually saying. He has the order in the reverse that you do. “Give me the 500-600 AB’s and then you’ll see that I’m an everyday player.” That’s entitlement. And yes, most pro athletes will probably feel similarly entitled in their heads or private conversations, but few are so publicly explicit with it. Compare him to Iannetta, for instance, who had far greater reason to say things like this, a much better performance record, but kept his complaints to himself.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2011 9:55 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Fact is, RG, he does have that opportunity...
that Tracy clearly would not give him without seeing quick short-term results. Stewart is probably the type of player that needs to play everyday to get his groove, and power hitters like him tend to be streaky. We don’t get to see the hot streak if he’s be yanked around, from the starting lineup to the bench or from the majors to the minors. He stunk when he played last year, but he was not allowed to play his way out of it much. Injuries played into that, but so did Tracy. I think Ian has a valid complaint.
Ordinarily, I would agree
but even in a short sample, he needed time to figure stuff out somewhere other than an MLB lineup. But a 2-for-26 with a bunt single and check-swing infield single and 14 K’s is beyond “Let him play through it”
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2011 10:06 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
No doubt he was in an atrocious slump...
and I’m sure Ian would admit that too. However, I also think he’s the type of guy who thinks if given one more game, he’ll hit 2 homers in that game. Maybe that was part of his problem last year. He may have been trying to impress TOO much, get that two-homer game, and as a result he K’s three times. He didn’t have the support or confidence of his boss, and eventually it got into his head. You could see it. Baseball players usually do better when they feel they have the full confidence of their manager.
That's fine, I actually think he could have had more opportunity too,
but I’m not backing down that his statement also shows entitlement to playing time that the industry historically hasn’t given to players in his situation. He’s far from the first player to go through a slump like his and be benched for it, he will certainly not be the last.
I still have a beef with you calling his public comments...
“entitled to the end”. All he said in that quote is that he has the “OPPORTUNITY” (the operative word) to come in and be the everyday guy getting the 500 to 600 ABs. And that’s true. He has been offered a chance in Chicago to succeed Ramirez. He’s not saying “I’m being given an everyday job no matter how I do.”……which would be entitled.
I haven't seen any quotes from Chicago that *guarantee* 500-600 ABs to Stewart
or even the guaranteed starting job. He’s probably the favorite over Baker and incumbents, but any other conclusions is presumption
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2011 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
I agree....
and Stewart probably agrees too. He says he has that OPPORTUNITY to be that guy. It’s a far cry from saying he will be handed the job. So that’s why I feel RG levied a cheapshot this morning when she blasted his quote as being “entitled to the end.” That’s all.
Those "cheapshot"
…comments were the clearest perspective I’ve read on anything baseball today or yesterday. She nailed the situation. I wish Ian well and am simultaneously amazed that I had to watch him as many times as I did last year. It really showed the Rockies desire to “go beyond” in giving him a chance. This just my naive and individual opinion.
by holidayelsie on Dec 11, 2011 10:24 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Opportunity
a condition or situation favorable to attainment of a goal.
It’s not used in this context to imply that there’s a decent chance of a negative outcome. I’m sorry, I’m still not seeing how I went overboard.
I was pretty surprised to see you weren't being sarcastic
when I read the comments. Opportunity is a pretty vague term to hang your hat on either way.
Considering that DeWitt and Baker are the only real competition so far, it’s reasonable for him to think that, if he plays well in spring training, he’ll get the opportunity (which common usage indicates can be revoked at any time) to bat 500-600 times.
Somewhat agree about opportunity to be a vague term to hang an argument on,
that’s actually my point to GRG, but I strongly disagree that what you’re saying is what Ian said or was implying in the quotes above. Not even close to something like “if I play well, I’ll have the opportunity to bat 500-600 times.” He’s saying, give me 500-600 at bats, and you’ll see that I bat well. It’s a large difference.
You're engaging in as much of a semantics argument as GRG
with that line of thinking, but it doesn’t really matter.
I don’t think he comes off like a princess, but I’m not sure I’ve ever heard him speak or seen him off the field. No idea.
Perhaps the Cubs told him before/after the trade that he would be given the opportunity to start full time. The folks commenting at BCB seem to think that’s the case. And this Fangraphs article treats Stewart like the obvious replacement for Ramirez.
Also, both previous and current management have a tolerance for high K/high BB/high power people (Soriano, Pena, Ortiz, Soto, and Youkilis to some extent).
As far as comments made by professional athletes, sucky or not, it’s pretty tame. Put in context, it’s a non-issue.
I didn't say he came off like a princess. In other comments, I said that his opinion
could actually be on par for the course for professional athletes, even though many won’t actually voice them as Stewart did. What I did say is that the statement he made:
“I was never really a big change of scenery guy,” Stewart said in response to a question. "I always felt like I fit in great with the Rockies when I was there. It just didn’t seem like all the time I was always given the best opportunity to play. I think this gives me a great opportunity to come in and be that everyday third baseman and to get those 500 or 600 at-bats that I need to be able to be successful."
Shows entitlement to playing time and opportunities other players in like situations don’t get.
There are so many conditionals in his statement
that I have to assume you made the argument and are carrying it forward solely for the sake of argument.
Princess is my editorial comment. His statement seems more “aw shucks, I hope it gets better” to me than anything.
It’s also hard to believe that we’re having this discussion based primarily on 122 ABs. Yeah, he wasn’t a stud in 09-10, but he was an above average baseball player with significant upside. 122 ABs and an ambiguous comment later he’s hog slop.
Okay, whatever.
If Colvin said that he needed 500-600 AB’s to be successful with the Rockies, we’d say: “Sure, we understand, so if you don’t play well for the 200 or so you’re going to get, we’ll still keep you around for three years just to find out, because kind like that is what this business is about.”
It’s not that vague or conditional a statement. I actually wish Stewart well too, I want this trade to be a win-win and think that’s possible, but he needs to understand that he has to produce first, and then the AB’s come in this business, not the other way around.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2011 12:31 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Let me highlight all of the conditionals
"I was never really a big change of scenery guy," Stewart said in response to a question. “I always felt like I fit in great with the Rockies when I was there. It just didn’t seem like all the time I was always given the best opportunity to play. I think this gives me a great opportunity to come in and be that everyday third baseman and to get those 500 or 600 at-bats that I need to be able to be successful.”
If Colvin fails after 200 ABs next season, it is different than Stewart because Rox didn’t draft Colvin and the same attachment is not there. If he did fail after that many ABs, that would still only amount to about 2/3 of a season. Then he can be sent off to space. Plus, it’s not really clear that he’s better than the in-house options (if we still have Smith or sign another OF) and he doesn’t need to be because he wasn’t acquired to be a starter. Stewart, however, has pretty meager competition for the job until Vitters is ready.
I didn't, I addressed it in the first comment
Did you miss my highlighting of all of the conditional phrases used in Stewart’s comment? Because if you remove those, then I definitely could see what you’re saying.
Otherwise, it’s just regular MLB player platitudes. And it seems pretty generous towards Tracy considering what is said about him here.
I did, I think you might be equally ignoring the
absolute parts of the statement, so I’ve kind of given up trying to argue this. He starts by saying he’s never been a change of scenery guy, which is denial, he always felt like he fit in great with the Rockies just that he wasn’t given (gift, an entitlement) the best opportunity. He now has a great (minimizing any conditional aspect) opportunity in Chicago to be that everyday third baseman and to get those 500-600 AB’s that he needs to be successful.
It’s not nearly the, oh maybe if I compete well I can win the job, statement you’re saying.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2011 1:02 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I never said it's definitely anything
You’re missing the point of conditionals. They are the maybes and could bes that you’re looking for.
When I said “His statement seems…” that’s me saying it could be something other than what you appear to think it is.
Like I said, I kind of have given up arguing.
I know what conditionals are, and I know those that Stewart used aren’t what you’re implying they are in the context he used them. Well, two of them are (seem like, I think, as they aren’t modified) but you’ll note those three show a level mistrust and are conditional for management of the teams in question, and not for Stewart’s condition.
When it comes to his own situation, it’s crystal clear to him what he deserves, it’s just a matter of whether the team will give it to him. Every other conditional that actually does apply to him and not the team, he modifies with one of those absolutes or minimizing adjectives I pointed out: “I never really,” “best opportunity,” “great opportunity,” “always felt like,” “need to be able.”
It’s not uncommon, people don’t like to face themselves, but I really think Stewart might need to in order to be as successful as he could be.
Yet, we complain about Tracy's tinkering
all the time on here. It’s frequently characterized as frustrating and needless. And if he felt the same, that could be quite defeating.
We could go on for hours, but I’ll just say I think you’re doing what people on here frequently get criticized for: make conclusive comments about a player’s character or demeanor without really knowing anything about him. I’ve always considered the Stewart/slopping hog things to be like the idea that Tulo drives an ‘86 Camaro. I doubt there’s ever been a sourced comment from a reporter by a person inside the organization confirming the suspicions about Stewart. If there is, then I apologize for the needless debate.
Actually, maybe I did miss your point with Colvin.
I don’t really know how to respond because their circumstances seem quite different once we get beyond two talented players with terrible 2011s.
Seriously… :lol:
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 1:11 PM MST up reply actions
I'm being a little ridiculous about this
And I’ve now devolved into the argument for argument’s sake that I accused RG of.
It doesn’t matter in the end what he does with the Cubs. All that matters is that they broke their streak of waiting too long to trade players of undecided talent.
I guess my question about that statement...
if he needs 500-600 ABs to be successful, I assume that means he is saying that he would have been successful if he had just gotten another 400 or so ML at bats in 2011, my question is when would that success have kicked in? Were the Rockies supposed to put up with that level of performance for another 200 ABs? 300? He got quite a few in AAA, and that didn’t seem to help when he came back up. Do only MLB at bats count in getting him to the point of being successful?
He has got to understand that an MLB team can’t put up with a guy hitting .150 with no power indefinitely. He has got to understand that the reason he was taken out of the lineup is not because somebody doesn’t like him, or somebody is out to get him, or he was being picked on. It was because he wasn’t performing at even a minimally acceptable level at his job, and in the big leagues, that means somebody else is going to get the chance to perform in your place.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 12:45 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You mention
he got a few more at-bats in CS but he didn’t actually tear the cover off the ball there either. In fact he hit about the same level as Pacheco with more power. Not a great showing there either.
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by jrockies on Dec 11, 2011 12:49 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
A lot of people here seem to agree that Tracy is a puppeteer
and if that’s the case, Stewart doesn’t need to think that Tracy doesn’t like him in order to reasonably make the statement “It just didn’t seem like all the time I was always given the best opportunity to play.” I think a lot of MLB players say that sort of thing, and I think a lot of Rockies could reasonably make that statement during Tracy’s tenure (like most 2B).
As for how long a team has to tolerate poor performance, it was tolerated for a long time with Atkins in April/May ’07, Aug/Sep of ’08 and most of ’09. It was also tolerated with Hawpe when he went through long, terrible stretches before being waived.
Atkins was barely more established than Stewart when that horrendous start to ’07 occurred.
This is different because he’s far more established, but David Ortiz was considered on the down slope when he had a horrific April ’10. They let him play through it.
As for how long a team has to tolerate poor performance, it was tolerated for a long time with Atkins in April/May ’07, Aug/Sep of ’08 and most of ’09. It was also tolerated with Hawpe when he went through long, terrible stretches before being waived.
And given how those situations worked out for the team, do you think that may have influenced their attitude on how long to suffer with Stewart?
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely
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It did work out for the team with Atkins in '07 into the first half of '08
I was as big an advocate of trading him after ’08 as anyone.
The difference with Atkins and Stewart is that I’d imagine other team don’t think Stewart’s potential has been tapped yet, or that his peak has been reached. Atkins, on the other hand, already had his stud season and was entering his age-29 season.
Hawpe also worked out for a significant length of time while being streaky in ‘08-’09, but should have been traded for anything after the ’09 season. It would have been similar to Stewart.
I’m actually pretty pleased that they traded Stewart for this. It’s what they should have done but seemed afraid to do in the past. Regardless of his thoughts on change of scenery, Rox fans definitely need their own change of scenery at third and away from the teasing disappointment of Stewart.
But then Atkins tanked again
sure, he rebounded for a year or so. Then right back in the crapper. And he’s another guy who had a lot of the same baggage as Stewart in terms of work ethic, etc. (if you believe what has been reported/rumored about both). If the Rockies saw a similarity between Atkins 2007 and Stewie’s 2011, it may have just served as confirmation to them that this was another situation unlikely to end well…
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 1:10 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
If that's the case, even better
I don’t really care what the circumstances were that led to Stewart’s trade. Like I said above, I think it’s important that the team be able to get beyond their own bias/concerns about the fanbase and trade homegrown, but disappointing or fading talent.
Atkins actually had a great first half of 2008, but then faded (then of course the terrible 2009). Those two, long stretches of bad play should have been enough of a sign that he needed to go before nothing could be had in return.
That "year or so" I was talking about
would be from mid-season 07 to midseason 08.
I agree with you about it being encouraging they’re actually willing to make more aggressive decisions with some of their home grown guys. But I was actually on board with keeping Stewie and giving him another chance if they couldn’t get the right return. Did they get the right return? I’m undecided at this point…
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 1:19 PM MST up reply actions
He had that opportunity in Colorado
491 PA’s in 2009, 441 in 2010 (including a month on the DL). Let’s not act as if the organization refused to ever give him steady playing time. The fact is that if he puts up numbers in Chicago like he did here last year, he’s probably not getting any more playing time.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 10:44 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
It sounds like that second sentence is actually pretty close to what he's saying to me.
You’re now arguing semantics and the narrow definition of a single term in a paragraph that in context says otherwise to fit your view. This is clearly something that you’ve set your opinion on, I’m not going to convince you otherwise. Meanwhile, narrowing your argument to a possible definition of “opportunity” to imply more left to chance than the actual definition and common use of the term does is not going to convince me that I erred in my stance, either.
Sometimes it’s better to stop, or dig yourself out. But, I guess there is valor to digging in deeper. Or something.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 10:43 AM MST up reply actions
Im glad you're sticking to your guns on this RG..
Stewart was never known for being the hardest-working player in the clubhouse. I can’t imagine EY2 making this kind of statement. Ian’s actions have always reflected that he deserved whatever he got, not that he was trying to earn anything.
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by Charlie77 on Dec 11, 2011 4:29 PM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Nobody has anything definitive beyond this one article and the fact that he tweets about video games.
Oh and his crappy on-field performance.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 11, 2011 8:18 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Getting thrown under the bus by Tulo.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 8:21 PM MST up reply actions
Well, this one article, the other article,
the other article, the scouting report, the statements of certain club employees, the other scouting report, and his crappy on field performance. But beyond that, no, nothing definitive. The fact he tweets about video games is not germane to any of this, it was just a suggestion to help an image that seems to dog him, a ridiculous thought, I know, considering how motivated and gung-ho the rest of the league sees him.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2011 10:37 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
dude, like, that's just your opinion, man
the stew knows he’s the shiz, why else would he tweet about video games and say that he’s actually the man.
come on
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 11, 2011 11:37 PM MST up reply actions
I see no links
So I went ahead and did it for you: This summer the Sky Sox manager said Stewart needed an attitude adjustment.
At least that’s the way Irv Moss phrased it and how it was repeated in a Rockpile. But that’s not what was actually said:
“At some point it has to be an eye opener,” Cole said. “It becomes time to kick it in gear, get back to where I need to be.”
Your point, and your unsourced claims to back it up, are hyperbolic and self-serving to the point of view you’ve chosen to embrace.
That's not all that was said, either.
It would put Cole’s job, or just about any Rockies staffer’s job in jeopardy to go on the record with much more than that.
You're just filling in made up gaps with made up information
It’s also starting to sound like black helicopters are hovering above your head.
Because I'm done arguing. If it comes from me, you'll find it ambiguous
And the words of a raving person with an agenda, and you’ll see me reading into it what I want to see. If you have back issues of Baseball America, look back to the end of the 2004 season. Look back to issues around the time Stewart was drafted too. If you have access to the Colorado Springs Gazette, look to his interviews when he was sent down, or not called up.
Unfortunately for me, to your point of view all of that is just going to be stuff that hints at something I’m seeing, not actual evidence, but I can’t print off the record conversations and I doubt you’d trust them coming from me anyway. So I’m done. You can look it up on your own. I’m not backing down from what I’ve said about Stewart having an entitled attitude. I will say again, though, that I do think an entitled attitude like this is fairly common among profession athletes. It doesn’t make Stewart a bad person or athlete, and I’m sorry if it seems like I think it does.
by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2011 9:05 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
He had more than enough opportunity to prove over the last four years that he is not adept at adapting,
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by Oldfoagie on Dec 11, 2011 11:09 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I could not disagree more
He is one of a couple of players that for whatever reason never got consistent AB’s, not consistent enough to hit at the major league level. Baseball is far different from football, yet I think the impatient football mentality has entered baseball. Stew in particular was hurt by having a micro manager in Tracy. I think in general the entire offense has suffered from his management style, but streaky, power hitters especially are hurt by it. I agree with GoRoxGo in that I hope Stew has a huge year in Chicago.
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Why should he get consistent AB's as opposed to, say, Chris Nelson?
He was WAY worse than Nelson, which is saying a lot. Not to mention Wigginton, Pacheco, and others. I don’t get why it’s in anyone’s interest, Rox included, to give this guy 500 AB’s when he’s hitting 150. This isn’t little league.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:56 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
932 PAs in 2009-2010
I’m going to copy Junction Rox’s headline to answer your question. Unlike Nelson, Stewart has actually peformed like a competent regular 3rd baseman in the major leagues, though he has been a flawed player in need of growth. He turns 27 next April, an age when many players to grow, or the light bulb comes on. He’s hit 25 homers as a 24 year-old, so I don’t see why he can’t hit 30 HRs at age 27 in the Friendly Confines.
Nelson and Pacheco aren’t even close, and Wiggy is Wiggy. Silly comparisons, all three, to what Stew actually has done in the past (ignoring his sinkhole season of 2011).
932 PAs in 2009-2010
I don’t think it’s accurate to say he “never got consistent ABs”.
There is no reason to think he should have continued to be in the lineup every day in 2011 with the complete lack of performance he demonstrated. Not if a team is actually trying to win games.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 11:59 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
He actually got about 300 ABs last year.
You are wrong in your characterization of his playing time as well. He got a very far chance in the month of July and in early August, and he blew it. Look:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=stewaia01&t=b&year=2011
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:44 AM MST up reply actions
Yes. I’m combining MLB and AAA time for thoes ABs.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
He played less than 50 MLB games last year...
How is that being given a fair shot? You condemn him for blowing it, and he did do that….over a limited number of ABs while always looking over his shoulder and not able to get comfortable, metaphorically speaking.
This is what you said:
Tracy woud NOT give Ian the fairness of leaving him in the lineup, favoring Wiggy or whoever over Ian whenever there was an 0-4 the night before.
That was wrong.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:57 AM MST up reply actions
Most of the season, it was not wrong....
OK, maybe Tracy let him play 3 or 5 straight games before benching him, but bench him he did. And on multiple occasions.
Most of the season?
Did you look at the link? He was at AAA for most of the season.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
So you defend Tracy and his usage of Stewart....
You, might friend, might be in the minority as a Tracy defender around here.
Everyone here knows I'm not a Tracy defender.
I was one of the first to assess him harshly this season. There’s a FanPost to prove it. You’re just wrong.
In a stretch of 26 games from 7/5 to 8/8 he started in 21 of those games. He played in all of them. His numbers in the month of July were .200/.300/.306.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:52 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Why wasn't he left in all 26 games?
You preferred Wiggy in his place those times? Was he hurt then? My point is you can’t settle in if you are benched after a bad game or two, and you’re also cherry-picking the one stretch of games last season where he was given any sort of chance.
You can look deeper.
I’m going to guess that we were playing against a LHP. He was benched after a bad game or two.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 9:58 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
This would also explain why he came in later in the game.
The LH starter was gone. He played in every game.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 10:02 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
This seems to be a strawman,
saying that Stewart had opportunity isn’t remotely the same as defending Tracy.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2011 9:57 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Of course it's defending Tracy in this instance....
Saying he got enough exposure or given enough chances to play, when all he got was 122 ABs in 6 months, is an endorsemnt of Tracy’s usage of Stewart, and I consider that to be in defense of his decisions in this regard.
Really?
How can you bash a manager’s decision to bench a player who was hitting like a pitcher in the first two months of the season? We don’t like Tracy here, but this isn’t even a decision that any manager with any common sense thinks twice about. It was quite obvious that Stewart was having serious issues, injury and mechanically, where playing him everyday at the major league level was just going to make things worse.
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by MattBerger on Dec 11, 2011 10:12 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, in truth, Tracy erred in playing Stewart....
on Opening Day when he should have been disabled and given a chance to get into game shape in extending spring training after being hurt in March. If he had gotten to 100% and come back in late April, he may have had a completely different season. We tend to forget that.
I'll also note that
I was in favor of keeping Stewart.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 10:03 AM MST up reply actions
I think most of us were
We knew we were going to get a meh package for him, and that’s exactly what Colvin and LeMahieu are.
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Blaming the manager for everything from global warming on down to Ian Stewart is the oldest dodge in the book
I don’t see how you can make that case with a straight face. Same goes for Iannetta. This is the major bloody leagues. You don’t keep running a guy as lost as Ian was last year out there, without getting laughed at and (in fact) making it even worse for the guy. You saw him last year. He was not a professional baseball player. He was an easier out than the pitcher. I hope he figures it out and develops a little confidence in Chicago, but I doubt it because he doesn’t seem to give a rat’s ass, this statement notwithstanding (and I hope it means he now gets it).
I think we should fire Tracy as much as most folks here, but in Ian’s case he handled it just about right.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:16 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
My main point here is the cheapshot...
and calling Stewart’s quote “entitled to the end”. Maybe he wasn’t entitled to any more than 122 ABs over 6 months, maybe he was. However, to kick the guy as he’s walking out the door when he didn’t even have a choice in the matter is not very becoming of RG as a write, IMO.
No, I think it's quite fair
It’s not just about his poor performance. He’s always given off the strong whiff of a guy who felt he didn’t have to work for anything because he was Ian effin’ Stewart. Sorry, we all get gut feelings about the guys we watch every day. They may be wrong, but that’s what I get, strongly and clearly, from him.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:28 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm amazed how fans think they can get into the head of players...
or even know what’s in their hearts. You have no clue, nor do I, as to what Stewart’s attitude is in this regard. I never heard him make cocky statements about how great he was. He was no Muhammed Ali, that’s for sure. I sensed he was quiet and laid-back publicly, perhaps even passive and aloof. His letting inside corner strikes punch him out time and again seemed to show he had trouble adjusting to what pitchers were doing, but that’s a far cry from devining what Ian thinks of himself. I certainly have yet to read a thing that makes me believe Stewart feels “entitled to the end”, which is why RG’s characterization of him this morning rubs me the wrong way.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree
You can intuit a lot from body language, what a guy says and doesn’t say, both in TV and in social media, and how he evolves (in Ian’s case, not at all) over the years. We’re on more more solid ground gathering things from these clues than in blindly giving all Rockies org guys the benefit of the doubt.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
I wish he was Ali
I’m fine with the ’tude when you have the game to back it up.
Whether or not Stew is truly “entitled” may not be something we can ever really know, but we certainly can chafe against a guy with his numbers taking shots at the org and blaming others.
I hope stew does well in Chi. I don’t think it was a bad move to trade him, nor do I think he got a bum rap last year. And while RG’s comment was tough, I think it was fair.
by Teekalong on Dec 11, 2011 11:03 AM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Shame? Stewart should feel some...
Entitled is about the nicest thing she could have said about him. This kid had EVERY chance to win the job over several seasons and never could put it together. How many drafts were altered to the detriment of the Rockies because we always knew we had Ian Stewart coming in the next few years. How many rally killing K’s do we have to watch when Ian “1 & 2 to” Stewart takes strike 3 on an inside fastball?
I actually felt a little sympathy for this kid and now seeing this quote proves everything I always suspected about this kid. I wish Little Ian Stewart the best in Chicago, but he was given every chance here in Colorado.
by WhiskeyDrinkingMan on Dec 11, 2011 10:56 AM MST up reply actions 3 recs
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My guess for the rest of the off-season
We do get Cuddyer (I don’t think he’s leaning toward Minnesota in the slightest … I’m more worried about some other team who’s a more immediate contender jumping in at the last moment). We trade Smith and Wheeler to the Braves, not for Prado but for Jurrjens. We sign Keppinger or the equivalent to compete for 2B with the Cubs kid. And call it a day. If all that comes to pass, I give the FO a B+ at least.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:20 AM MST reply actions
I'd be very satisfied with that.
That’s not enough for Jair though. I think we just need that one Vet
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by CentralCaliRox on Dec 11, 2011 10:25 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Jurrjens off the market?
Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe reports that the Braves may have to hold on to Jair Jurrjens now due to concerns about Tommy Hanson’s shoulder.
Jurrjens has been known to be on the trade market, but if the Braves are truly worried about Hanson, dealing Jurrjens might prove to be too risky. Hanson initially started having shoulder issues in mid-June and wound up making just eight starts the rest of the way, with the last one coming on August 6. Exams never revealed any structural damage, though, and the Braves have indicated that they thought he’d be fine after an offseason of rest. It will be interesting to see how Hanson is feeling in spring training.
Posturing
They are going to deal him or Prado, trying to combat the widespread notion that he’s available for less than his value.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
From Ken Rosenthal
Source: Braun tested positive for a prohibited substance, not a performance-enhancing drug. More coming on FOXSports.com.
timmeh style??
arenado: it's Rockie for future
nope, MLB players don't get tested for weed.
probably a masking agent.
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by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 11, 2011 12:16 PM MST up reply actions
I saw that, which of course would change things quite a bit.
I wonder why the synthetic t was brought up if it turns out to be something else?
There is synthetic pot, but I doubt that's the case here
It’s an anti-nausea medicine often used to combat the effects of chemo.
I have no idea what other non-performance-enhancing yet still banned substances there are. Chewing tobacco?
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
Synthetic pot is used for Cancer?
not gonna lie ive tried the synthtic stuff or the “spices” you can legally buy and not only do they taste like shit but they don’t really do anything for ya. It’s really a waste of money even smoking it.
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:40 AM MST up reply actions
Not to treat the cancer
But the nausea from the chemo. It’s apparently very effective, far better than the narcotic stuff.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:40 PM MST up reply actions
interesting
im glad it can be put to good use
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@Garrett_Olsen
by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:21 PM MST up reply actions
Hell' that could mean hetreated a cold with an old botttle of Nyquil
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
heyo Rox fans
thought id stop by and see if there is any new news on future moves for the Rox. Also Willingham has ade his list to two teams… The Twins and Indians
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@Garrett_Olsen
If Willingham signs with the Twins, I expect an announcement soon saying
that Cuddyer has signed with either us or the Cardinals
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
What about Kubel if we lose both?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
He hits lefty
not a fit for us.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I'll admit though I don't know much about Kubel
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
He has hit for the cycle before though...
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
at that point we're probably better off keeping smith
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I'm pretty sure the Rockies are really confident of their chances of Cuddyer
They wouldn’t have practically eliminated themselves from Willingham if they didn’t think so, though I’m sure they have a solid backup plan. I wouldn’t mind a Blackmon/Ross platoon if Ross came cheap
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
not gonna happen
Ross wants 3 years 18 mil… Reds are first in their hunt for him and still shook their head at that request
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
Eh, just thinking on my part
People here seem to be really against getting Ross. I wouldn’t do 3 years for a platoon outfielder either and the Reds know that his price will come down
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
yea
i tend to lean with the majority here i just don’t like Ross much either but it looks and sounds like there is mutual interest in Cincy for Ross.
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@Garrett_Olsen
by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
The against Ross thing
comes from Hating him quite a bit (and he’s not that great)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
nice
Stl has a lot of work to do to bring in some bats in hopes of reducing the blow of losing Albert… Wouldn’t be surprised if Cuddyer ends up there but would like to see him in Colorado.
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
Don't think Cards are a fit for Cuddyer
His best position is RF by a long shot, and they’re pretty well set there with post season hero Allen Craig. Also John Jay. Beltran’s a better play, but I suspect they’ll save their pennies for next year’s class anyway.
Teams I worry about as far as nabbing Cuddyer are: Twins, of course; and a random high payroll team looking to add a little punch, like the Rangers (in which case they’d trade Murphy), Blue Jays, or the Phillies.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:33 AM MST up reply actions
Craig just had "Beltran" surgury on a knee. Out for to six months I thought I read.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
No, I think pretty minor surgery.
He played all the way through the WS, if memory serves, so couldn’t be anything too severe.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
yep
I think the Cardinals would do well pursuing a 4th outfielder who can start while he’s gone, not Cuddyer or Beltran. Doesn’t sound like Craig will miss too much of the year
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
True
beware of Boston too.. I know the Sox have interest in Cuddyer
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah he fits in Boston
But I think they’re hell bent on acquiring pitching. Nothing else matters.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:40 AM MST up reply actions
Yea true
i hope there contiues to be caos in Miami so they trade Hanley to Boston and then Boston can persue some pitching
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:41 AM MST up reply actions
The Red Sox are claiming poverty
They don’t want to go over the luxury tax threshold for a player like Beltran or Cuddyer.
They could always eat some salry and give us Crawford?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Kind of defeats the purpose
Since they’d have to eat more than half of it for many many years. Maybe though.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:45 AM MST up reply actions
Speaking of the Sawx, Rosenthal says ...
Rox are interested in Scutaro. We could get him or Lowrie (prefer Scutaro) maybe for one of our pitching depth, like Hammel or say Cabrera.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:44 AM MST reply actions
Boston won't touch Hammel
and idk who Cabrera is
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:45 AM MST up reply actions
Probably got his name wrong
The lefty who led the minors in K’s?
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 11:46 AM MST up reply actions
i don't know much about the minors my friend
just a select few haha
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by NastyNessy71 on Dec 11, 2011 11:47 AM MST up reply actions
Hang around during the season
and you will quickly learn who these kids are
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
A Cabrera swap for Scutaro makes sense IMO
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I agree
Scutaro’s fairly old, but on a one year commitment, he’s a very solid choice for 2B or 3B and LeMahieu could play the other until Arenado is ready.
I wonder if we could play off the Red Sox desperation and get him for less
Rob Scahill + Clayton Mortenson.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
that would be nice, but I would think somebody may offer more than that.
That said, I really like Scahill as a bullpen prospect, I’d almost rather offer Cabrera.
I see this happening like the Street situation
Red Sox need salary relief, and unloading Scutaro is the best way to do it. I would have no issues reallocating Street’s salary to Scutaro.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
He makes $6m though
That’s half our available dollars, so unless the FO is willing to go a bit higher (which frankly would make sense, since Scutaro’s on the last year of his deal) we probably can’t get him and Cuddyer. And forget about a front line SP.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:25 PM MST up reply actions
and Martin Prado would be 2 million dollars less than Scutaro
Don’t forget, we don’t have to pay Stewart in arbitration anymore, and the 2-2.5 million Smith is due to make in arbitration is likely to go away.
I’ve always thought the money we freed up from Cook goes to a starter, Street goes toward Cuddyer, and the rest goes towards complementary pieces.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Too bad we didn't just send Street for Scutaro and pocket the $1m difference
I wonder why, if the Rox had interest in Scoots, the Sox didn’t care enough for Street?
Simple. Sox want to shed payroll to make a run at a SP
Their backup plan is to move Bard to the rotation, but I get the sense they REALLY prefer to land a legit starter.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:27 PM MST up reply actions
Who's left as a FA SP that they'd go after?
And, what – besides Lars Anderson, who is sort of like Stewart at this point – are they going to trade in exchange for a quality SP (like Gio or Niese)?
Those are their mentioned targets, according to Cafardo.
They do have a few MLB players to move like Reddick, Lowrie, and some prospect depth if they wanted to go for a big splash and get a Danks or Shields.
Meh, he's been kind of a disappointment
Also a lefty, I believe. He’s pretty equivalent to Smith. If anything Smith is better, but older of course.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:49 PM MST up reply actions
Edwin Jackson maybe ...
… or a trade for Ervin Santana … two moves I would like the Rox to consider as well.
by Traindogger on Dec 11, 2011 12:51 PM MST up reply actions
The Red Sox covet Madson
They have no plans for Bard to close, and to be honest, I think Street is a horrible fit for Boston and the AL East.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Renck says that we're out on Willingham, Heyman says that we're in:
#indians, #rox, #twins still main teams eyeing josh willingham. professional hitter. had 29 hrs, includ 15 at oakland mausoleum
I’d trust Renck’s sources on this more, but this rumor seems to be as conflicted as the Braun story right now.
I don't see why the Rox would admit they're out on Willingham
unless they think that 3/$27-30M is actually a reasonable price for Cuddyer, and that honing in on one player makes him more likely to sign. Aside from signing top tier talent, shopping around seems the better strategy for the Rox.
Plus, for some reason it seems unlikely that Willingham gets three years. Just opinion, though.
I agree with your opinion here on Willingham,
but Renck tweeted that he talked to a Rox source that said they’re out on him.
In general it seems safer to trust local reporters
Especially when there’s two reporting it. Though I could see why his representation would have an interest in giving the Twins and Indians the impression that they’re the main/only teams involved.
I was gonna say the opposite, actually
I think GM"s tend to use the local beat guys as disinformation mouthpieces, while the national guys have broader sources that may know things, since as Willingham’s representation. Unlikely Renck has contacts there, but Heyman certainly does.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:29 PM MST up reply actions
Renck I would trust a little more than most because of his relationship with Fox
So it seems like he’d be privy to some of the same contacts as Heyman, Rosenthal etc..
But I basically undermined my title argument with the statement below it. Local reporters have more of an interest in sentiment/emotion than national reporters (who still frequently engage in disgusting nostalgia/moral/indignation) and so may more easily be played by agents.
But by the same token
might Willingham’s representation not be using the national guys as disinformation mouthpieces?
I actually think that might be even more likely, as their audiences are less likely to hold it against them if they got something wrong about one player with a team than the beat writers readership is.
I don’t know either way, btw. Just thinking out loud..
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 12:51 PM MST up reply actions
Ya never know ...
Whoever talks most to the agents is gonna get used more, that’s the only rule!
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
Another source ...
Nick Camino of WTAM 1100 in Cleveland reports that Josh Willingham has narrowed his choices to the Twins and Indians.
Camino reported Saturday that Willingham was down to four teams, but he says the Rockies and Mariners are now out of the picture. The Twins are likely viewing Willingham as a back-up plan if they’re unable to re-sign Michael Cuddyer. The Indians, meanwhile, have yet to make an offer to the 32-year-old but are having an ongoing dialogue with the outfielder’s representatives.
by Traindogger on Dec 11, 2011 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
Scutaro
Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that the Rockies, among other clubs, are interested in trading for Marco Scutaro.
With the Red Sox needing help in the outfield, the rotation and the back end of the bullpen, they’re looking to shed some payroll. Scutaro is an obvious candidate to be moved, as he’s set to earn $6 million in 2012 and the Sox already having Jed Lowrie on the roster and Jose Iglesias close to being ready. The veteran batted .299/.358/.423 in 445 plate appearances in 2011.
Ok, show of hands ... anyone know that Marco Scutaro is Venezuelan?
That’s … um … not what I would have guessed.
Also, three of his best four offensive years were post age 34, and he has about half as many starts at 2B as he has at SS. With one year on his contract, I think he’s an ideal get.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:39 PM MST up reply actions
a better fit than Polanco, actually, and I was excited about that possibility.
I agree. If it’s doable, then this would be solid for the Rockies chances next season.
If we get any more Venezuelan
we’re going to have to let Hugo Chavez throw out the first pitch on Opening Day.
But I like Scutaro for a year. Solves 2B for 2012 & gives backup for Tulo.
by maris61 on Dec 11, 2011 1:32 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Not to mention ...
Scutaro also has good numbers defensively at 3rd though the bat may be lacking a bit there.
I wasn't aware of that.
Then play him at 3B until June, move Arenado up if he’s raking in AA, and either play Scutaro at 2B if needed or trade him in July to some contender who’s lost a SS due to injury.
I like this if Arenado is unready in April
Fowler
Scutaro
Cargo
Tulo
Helton
Cuddyer/Colvin
Hernandez
LeMahieu
Pitcher
If Arenado, is ready, put DJLM on the bench.
I'm wondering what it will take for the Rox brass to conclude
that Arenado is ready.
Pacheco had a great ST last year, but wasn’t ready defensively, or I think he’d have made the team.
If Arenado has a similar ST offensively in 2012 & is adequate at 3B, a position where the Rox aren’t exactlly stacked with quallity candidates, it’s going to be hard to send him down.
Obviously, there’s a financial reason to do so — not starting his service clock. That’s what the Rays did with Longoria his rookie year, and that’s why they did it. But the veterans on the team, as well as fans, semi-revolted and said, “This kid is ready. He’s the best 3B in our system. We need him to win.” He was brought back up quickly, before the June trigger, and signed in fairly short order to a longterm, arb-years-buyout deal. The Rays won the division.
They say history never repeats itself, but I hope it does this year with the Rox & Arenado.
If I had to bet the house
I think Arenado breaks camp as our starting 3B. I actually think it might be a mistake, in part because Pacheco is better than a lot of folks on PR think. But I think the Rox brass REALLY wants Arenado to be the guy, for the excitement value after 2011 as much as anything, and will look for reasons to keep him rather than send him down.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 1:52 PM MST up reply actions
Yep, I think the Rockies do too.
That’s why I want another IF like Scutaro, Prado, somebody so that it’s less obvious that everything’s resting on Arenado fulfilling prophecy and ascending to the majors on the 6th of April in Houston.
and I should add that I actually like his chances as much as I would for any prospect
just because of that high contact skill being his greatest attribute, I just think it’s best for all concerned if the Rockies reduce the pressure by having a clear alternative.
Ducks ...
and looks around for Heltonfan …
by Traindogger on Dec 11, 2011 1:57 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I had forgotten about the Houston start
Might as well keep him with the Rockies on Opening Day, then, because he’s start off playing against minor league competition anyway.
by maris61 on Dec 11, 2011 1:58 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe that
would help improve US-Venezuelan relations?
/I kid and know I just crossed a line
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
by jrockies on Dec 11, 2011 1:35 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think political correctness applies to Hugo Chavez
but I could be wrong. You never know these days.
I was referring to PR rules a little
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Qulck...jump back over...l don't thlnk anyone notlced..
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
yea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=897jlnmTYqE
69 today, 68 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Bring on the Venezuelans!
There are about a million people of Italian ancestry in Venezuela. Not to sound professorial but immigration to South America is very similar to what took place in North America, there are millions of Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese, and people from all over Europe that migrated to South America in the late IXth and early XXth centuries. Italians in particular moved in large quantities to South America, it is estimated there are twice as many descendants of italian immigrants in South America than in North America.
Good stuff
I have not seen you around for a while.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 11, 2011 8:37 PM MST up reply actions
Argentina in particular has a big Italian community
And Venezuela was named after Venice, after all. (my dad’s from Venice, hence my own interest).
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
Bring on the Venezuelans!
Oh God, please no. Those things drove me nuts during the World Cup….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 10:31 PM MST up reply actions
I am strangely uninspired by this news
but I will admit I didn’t expect to see a split line that looked quite that good, either.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 12:52 PM MST up reply actions
Scutaro's a sneaky good hitter
And exactly the kind of hitter we need. Very disciplined, very good bat control, can turn on a pitch and yank it out quite effectively. He’s a pro’s pro.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:53 PM MST up reply actions
jim tracy just read that, and
now o’dowd’s phone is going nuts
arenado: it's Rockie for future
No, actually good ...
Not Jim Tracy, “versatile” good.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah ...
He was better in 2011 after disappointing somewhat in 2010: .275/ 333/.388
by Traindogger on Dec 11, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
I’d love love love Scutaro here.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 11, 2011 1:03 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Scutaro + Willingham/Cuddyer + no bad luck = killer offense
One of best in NL, I’d bet. At least at home …
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 1:13 PM MST up reply actions
I'd worry about the salaries of Scutaro and W/C
Can we include both? I’m not so sure about that…
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2011 1:23 PM MST up reply actions
Yes we could.
We’d have to cheap out on the Veteran starter, or not add one at all. But I don’t have the numbers with me, so someone like Jeff/deacs would know.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 11, 2011 1:28 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
My thought would be that the payroll will/could be $85M next year
And if you subtract $9.5M for Cook (salary-buyout), $7M for Street, $2.25M for Stewart, $7.7M in savings from the Helton extension, you’re at $26.5M to spend. Factor in $3.5M more for Cargo and $3M more for Tulo, you’re down to $20M before arb/pre-arb raises. I don’t know how much they are, but let’s say they negate the Wigginton savings. Then there’s the $1M from the Ramon-CDI deals, and $2.75 or so to Slowey.. So, about $20M to spend?
Cot’s says there’s more that’s not committed. But $20M seems right. The Helton savings is nice.
I’s doable if the veteran starter is for about $3-4M. Volquez doesn’t make much money, so that’d be nice.
When we calculated this a few days ago
We were much lower, in the $12m range. I have no idea why, especially since you seem to have forgotten the remaining Corpas money, which is also coming off this year.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 1:55 PM MST up reply actions
Seems like there should be more than $12
because there’s not a lot of raises coming. I didn’t see it the other day.
Yeah I dunno
Other folks know that stuff much better than I.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 2:21 PM MST up reply actions
Technically, probably not
We’d likely have to then trade Smith for a minimum salary guy, which would suck, and do a one-time increase over budget. Because Scutaro’s contract has only 2012 on it, it’s no big deal. Easy for me to say of course.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 1:30 PM MST up reply actions
But would the Rockies actually want Scutaro?
It only says they are “interested” in the idea, which might be like me being interested in going to Europe tomorrow, or me being interested in making tonight Taco Night. There might be some nuance here we could argue about for four more hours.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2011 1:17 PM MST up reply actions
I take that as code for "have called and would like to talk a deal"
but haven’t mentioned any names yet. Perhaps he’s one of the options for getting value from Smith after we sign Cuddyer/Willingham? That would make sense.
by BostonTransplant on Dec 11, 2011 1:28 PM MST up reply actions
Yay, arguing!
I think in this case it’s actually somewhat conditional on the salary and cost in prospects. He fits with the team, but it won’t take much for the cost to outweigh the value.
Yay, arguing!
I think in this case it’s actually somewhat conditional on the salary and cost in prospects. He fits with the team, but it won’t take much for the cost to outweigh the value.
Lots of conditionals there. Are you sure you really stand behind that argument?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 1:34 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
You'll note that I do use a lot of true conditionals in my writing.
It’s because I’m unsure of myself. Stewart does have self confidence, which is a good thing. It’s difficult to say where or even if it crosses the line, which I guess is what we we’re arguing above.
by Rox Girl on Dec 11, 2011 1:39 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
It's good you can admit that because you do use a lot of conditionals
It baffles me why you wouldn’t recognize the same in Stewart’s pattern of speech. Except that he sounds like a valley girl, whereas you sound like you’re just hedging.
Frankly part of that's the nature of the sport, or any sport.
I’d feel like an idiot if I didn’t acknowledge the unknowable.
So... why the insistence on your conclusion about Stewart's statement
when there’s nothing but, at best, unsourced reports about his temperement and attitude?
I'd say entitled about any player that said that.
I said entitled to the end about Stewart based on more than what you suggest.
I acknowledge that from some perspectives, it could seem otherwise. That’s probably about as far as you’ll get me to go.
The audio would probably make it a lot clearer
The Stewart I picture in your version has his legs kicked up on Theo Epstein’s table, lighting a cigar with a $100 bill.
The Stewart I picture uses a neutral tone, because we’ve never seen any sourced information about him having a bad or good attitude, work ethic, etc.
In a neutral tone, those are extremely ambiguous comments.
Good afternoon all.
If Braun did have something in his system. It still falls under the drug policy and will still have to serve the 50 game suspension. So, even though it may not be PED’s. It is still a foreign substance and therefore you still took it, got caught, now pay the price.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A
70 today, 69 tomorrow, 68 on Saturday, 67 Sunday and 66 Monday is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
If it was a masking agent
(and I have no idea if it was), then it’s just as bad as steroids.
I’m withholding judgment on this until all the facts come out. Too many incomplete reports at the moment.
by maris61 on Dec 11, 2011 2:10 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Has a player ever been confirmed to have taken something that would incur a 50 game suspension and then been able to appeal there way out of it?
by MileHighHawkeye on Dec 11, 2011 4:27 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
First that we knew about. Jimmy Rollins tweeted earlier today that he knew of a case that was successfully appealed that nobody would ever know about, and Kevin Goldstein confirmed that he’s heard similar stories from people in the game. Find their Twitter timelines.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Is 2012 a rebuilding year or not?
I’m becoming slightly tired with the whole try to get slightly better because we just wait on our prospects, but we never trade MLB talent for prospects for the future. So, in your collective opinions, is 2012 a year where we are trying to compete? Are we solely rebuilding? Or is it the classic, well we got a couple of cheap semi-young rebound/filler guys and we’re gonna try to get lucky?
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
It's not a try to compete year.
Not in the sense most fans will see that We might happen into contention because the division is so mediocre that it’s a crapshoot, even with AZ’s acquisition of Cahill, but the Rockies are clearly not trying to build a team with the highest true talent level for 2012.
I honestly have no idea
This offseaon’s moves are so incomplete right now that its impossible to tell exactly what’s on management’s minds. I do know that, even if they are rebuilding, it’s not something they can really say. Rox fans aren’t in any mood to hear that. At least I’m not :)
Rosenthal: Angels apparently not interested in trading Callaspo or Izturis...
Heltonfan brought them up yesterday as a couple of very good players the Rockies could look at for the IF, but according to Jerry Dipoto, they don’t appear available at this time.
Gorzelanny could be non-tendered tomorrow
Any interest in that? He had a nice K/9 (8.1) and BB/9 (2.8) last year. Also, a career BB% nearly ten points higher than Slowey.
I'd have preferred him to Slowey.
You could have had Gorzelanny and Hammel battle for the same SP spot knowing that whoever loses is still a compete bullpen arm. With Slowey you don’t have that luxury. I know he pitched some in relief last year but given how he pitched last season that really isn’t a supportive argument.
Slowey
Although the local media really had it out for him (and anyone else that Gardenhire declared un-Twinslike).
Probably/possibly. If he's non-tendered, though, it would seem unlikely that he'd pick Denver as the place to go as a FA
However, given the trade between the Rockies and the Cubs this week, I can’t imagine his name didn’t come up in conversation. If the Cubs knew they were going to non-tender him at that point, yet the Rockies preferred Colvin, that’s kind of weird to me. I get LeMahieu, but I’d have rather had Gorzelanny than Colvin.
Rockies couldn't pick a better time to be doing an offseason rebuild.
I doubt anybody in Denver is paying attention to them right now.
I'm in Golden so I don't count
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'm up in the North Metro.
I have no idea what the heck is going on. Something about the Handegg?

Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 5:33 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
I don't really follow any Handegg writers, but when all the baseball writers I do follow
are writing about what’s going on in Denver on a late Autumn (technically) Sunday, and it has nothing to do with the Rockies, then yes, I’d guess the Handegg.
I watched the game with an old college friend from Chicago
It was amusing.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2011 5:44 PM MST up reply actions
I haven't watched Broncos games for a few years, but I've got to admit I've watched the 4th quarters and OT's
the last two weeks. It’s intoxicating what the team is doing right now, reminiscent of Rocktober. It’s too bad only one guy is getting credit for it, though.
If anything
Tebow and this years broncos, and the Rocktober Rockies teach us that there are things in sports that Statistics and Projections can’t show, and intangibles are more important then what most fans give them credit for these days.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
by wolf213 on Dec 11, 2011 5:51 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
AAAARGH
Statistics absolutely, totally DOES tell you that there will always be outliers, there will always be “luck”, both good and bad, and that the probability of Tebow-esque events tends towards 100%.
Intangibles come into it too, I’m sure (though I can’t say how much because they’re intangible) but anyone who claims things like Rokctober prove statistics wrong is missing the point completely. Rocktobers proves statistics RIGHT.
PRMLB - The San Francisco Giants are better than you
As I don't like the Broncos
I agree that it’s sad only one person is getting credit for it (and they don’t even take the time to look at how the opposing defense has played that last bit either, only looking at the offense).
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I feel like while Tebow gets most of the attention
in some ways it’s become a meme. And people do realize that the whole team deserves credit, not just one guy.
Elway got a lot of the attention too
as did Manning, and Brady, and Rodgers… it’s the nature of the beast.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Tebow deserves more attention.....
because he’s raising the level of his entire team’s play. If guys on both sides of the ball believe that any game is winnable, they’ll keep playing hard no matter what. This entire team is night and day with Tebow under center compared to Orton.
Just heard Jimmy Johnson say that Tebow was the best he’s ever seen at making players around him better. That’s an incredibly rare intangible.
And I say this as a very late (and still somewhat skeptical) rider on the Tebow bandwagon.
just goes to show
the value of a good quarterback running back
arenado: it's Rockie for future
by papality on Dec 11, 2011 6:26 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the meme observation is a good one...
while Tebow deserves attention, and to me it’s becoming clear he is a unique player, so much of what is said about him is because people are having fun with several notable parts of his persona. The religion, the enthusiasm, the comebacks, the hype that came to Denver with him, the cult-like following. It’s all good fodder for the interwebz, the talk radio scene and the national sports guys. He has becoming a walking, talking, Tebowing meme…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 6:28 PM MST up reply actions
I think the issue with this, though, is how it eventually gets translated to Joe Sportsfan
Sarcasm is hard enough to get, but when every sports media personality is engaging in it, the repetition of the name becomes sort of a mantra. The Broncos are making a mint on the free advertising, though.
he's been equally fawned over and derided since and throughout florida
it would be an awfully long time to keep up sarcasm….
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Ultimately, it's because he wins
If a guy has all sorts of strange superstitions and rituals, but hits .220, he’s just an oddball.
Same guy wins the batting title and kids across the country are imitating him.
Let’s take stock of what’s happened here — Tim Tebow took over a team that was considered so bad that people were practically measuring Andrew Luck for an orange and blue uni and now has them in full command of the AFC West. That’s amazing. And that’s why all the other stuff about him seems so compelling.
It’s intoxicating in that it makes me want to drink until I am dead.
The Broncos are the guy at the casino that keeps hitting on 16 and getting an ace, another ace, and a three. Eventually, though, they change the deck of cards and that guy gets his ass thrown out of the casino.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
As a Broncos fan, it's been the most fun season since 1997.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
As somebody who’d almost rather see the Broncos go 0-16 than see my own favorite team win a Super Bowl, let’s just say now I know how Padres/Phillies/Diamondbacks fans felt in 2007.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Dec 11, 2011 6:41 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
really?
better than jake plummer’s glory daze?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I wouldn't consider those "fun"
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
why?
10-6, 10-6, 13-3… sure, getting crushed by indy twice wasn’t nice, but man, you gotta give it to 2005 at least
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I liked Jake's personality and his energy....
but those one or two horrible decisions that he seemed to make every game took years off my life.
As someone who has never liked the Broncos and can’t stand Tebow, I have enjoyed watching the Bronco’s defense discover themselves this season. I love me some tough, aggressive, blitzing defenses and I never thought Denver could become one of those.
I haven’t been able to watch the past couple games so my perspective on Tebow seems like it could be outdated but for as much as I have enjoyed watching the Broncos defense I have not enjoyed watching Tebow go multiple quarters without making a single completion.
he's had flashes of being an actual quarterback
but yeah, I have as much fun watching a legit defense play hardball.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Dec 11, 2011 6:56 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
For the talk about how Tebow makes those around him better....
same deal with Von Miller. Guys like Woodyard & Williams look like different players right now. Miller and a healthy Dumervil have raised that unit way, way up.
He was as bad as I have ever seen him today. 3 of 16 in the first three quarters. Chicago got their 10 point lead and then went into the prevent… and say this for Timmy, when facing a vanilla four man rush and soft cover four, he can hit an open receiver with the best of them.
I almost think you’ve got to take the prevent package out of the playbook against Timmy. If you’re kicking his ass and he’s not making any big plays for three quarters, why change anything for the fourth just because you have a lead?
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
should've been tied in the 4th Quarter
if Thomas doesn’t drop the damn ball on a sure fire TD Pass, and a field goal isn’t blocked… but go ahead and keep hating.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
by wolf213 on Dec 11, 2011 7:01 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Aww, it wouldn’t be a Tebow discussion if the words ‘Keep hating’ weren’t spoken, would it?
If Thomas doesn’t drop… if field goal isn’t blocked…? How about if Marion Barber doesn’t run out of bounds? Donkeys lose 10-7.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Counterpoint:
7-1
All the luck in the world doesn’t turn a team from 1-4 into 7-1.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Dec 11, 2011 7:05 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but if what Denver’s gotten the last eight weeks isn’t all the luck in the world, it’s certainly a substantial percentage of the world’s allotted luck.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
which, by definition, means there's something special happening in BroncoWorld
it could be the flukiest thing in the world, but it’s really enjoyable to behold. I don’t know what’s happening, but even the hardest critic has to admit something is happening. Otherwise, you don’t really have a leg to stand on at this point.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Again, this kills me. We’re on a blog that knows its sabermetrics. There’s an explanation for EVERYTHING. Sometimes Johnathan Herrera hits .300 for a month, and everybody here understands he’s probably gonna hit .200 the month after that. And yet, when it comes to football, no logic is required.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Ya, and the Rockies going 20-21
Wasn’t logical whatsoever either, but it was fun to watch… Sometimes its just fun to enjoy the ride.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
and realize
that as effective as stats are, they don’t tell the whole story. Intangibles are real.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
by wolf213 on Dec 11, 2011 7:17 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
That they are.
And it’s still amazing that such an obvious point is still under debate in some quarters. Denying the impact of non-measurable intagibles on the outcome of a sporting event just seems absurd to me Especially in a gme as fueld by emotion and momentum as football.
Anything can happen over the course of 16 games
I thought that was the reason people loved football.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
So show me the sabrmetric (or football equivelent) proof that Tebow has had....
little or nothing to do with the team going 7-1 in his starts. Because that seems to be the argument you’re making. That it’s all some magical coincidence fueled by luck and pixie dust.
Tebow would be the pitcher who has terrible form, can’t reach 90 on the radar gun, is constantly pitching from behind in the count, and always finds himself with runners in scoring position yet always findings a way to strike someone out and getting out of the situation resulting in a great Win-Loss record.
Evaluating by the numbers you would be convinced he’s the luckiest bastard in the world.
I'll take that guy over....
a flamethrower who falls apart when the game is on the line.
Winning > any stat ever invented
It does
As long as we are looking at past events. When trying to determine if something is sustainable though, the stats are more useful than just seeing if someone wins all the time. When you’ve only outscored a team by two points over an 8 game stretch and are 7-1, you’re probably going to start regressing soon. (I still fully expect them to win that divsion though)
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 11, 2011 8:00 PM MST up reply actions
Agreed.
For all the defending of Tebow I’m doing here, I’m still unsold about the sustainability of this. So yes, I’m still a skeptic going forward.
My point here today, though, is that Tebow is undeniably the primary reason for the Broncos revival, and denying that just seems a bit out of step with reality.
So you give little credit to the improved defense
and running game?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Really.
The defense isn’t that good. It’s better. But it is hardly elite. The weak division and weak schedule deserve quite a bit of credit.
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http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 8:17 PM MST up reply actions
I didn't suggest the defense was elite.
I’m trying to say that it’s not just Tebow doing the winning
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Oddly this is where I completely disagree
I think the defense is undeniably the primary reason for the Broncos revival. Before Tebow took over as a starter, The Broncos were allowing an average a 28 points per game this season – a very similar number to the 29.4 they allowed per game last season when they ranked dead last in the NFL in that category. During this 6 game winning streak however, teams have only average 17 points against the Broncos.
For comparison, the Batomore Ravens have given up 16 points and changed per game this season and rank 4th in that category. So what has really happened here is that the Bronco defense has gone from the worst in the NFL to a top 5 unit at the same time Tebow got the starting job.
The offense however has gone almost unchanged. Denver’s offense averaged 21 points in the first 5 games and have averaged 20.5 since Tebow took over.
It’s not Tebow, it’t the defense.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 11, 2011 8:26 PM MST up reply actions
Weak schedule. Weak division. This defense is not a Top 5 unit. It certainly has helped as much as Tebow has though.
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Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 8:34 PM MST up reply actions
Regardless of where you want to rank the defense
It should be rather obvious that since Tebow has taken over, it’s the points allowed per game and not the points scored per game that’s changed – And that chnage is the reason for the Broncos revival.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 11, 2011 8:40 PM MST up reply actions
So, just out of curiosity....
If this isn’t first and foremost about the change brought to the entire team by Tebow at the helm, What do you folks think the Broncos record would be if Fox had kept Orton at QB?
Call me crazy, but somehow I don’t think we’d be looking at 8-5 and a solid lead in the AFC west.
You're correct it wouldn't be
(I have not talked about Tebow here since this is a Rockies blog but I should probably clarify my statement above so my stance is clear)
When I say “it’s not Tebow, it’s the defense”, that’s not completely true because I include Tebow in part of the defense getting better (I’ll get to that in a moment). From what I’ve seen, Tim Tebow has done nothing, absolutely nothing to make to Bronco offense score more points than it did with Kyle Orton under center. He doesn’t complete enough of his passes, he’s not consistent enough during the game, and he wouldn’t have the record he does as a starter if the defense didn’t step up. What he has done however is help prevent to opponenet from scoring because he doesn’t turn the ball over. In less than five games, Orton managed to throw 7 INT’s while Tebow has only throw two in just over eight games. So oddly, Tebow (as an offensive player) has allowed the defense to blossum. The only way to score against Denver now is to drive the field against their defense (which is not easy) where before you could count on Orton throwing INT’s and cashing in on pick 6’s / great field position. In my mind, (even at QB) Tebow is a better defensive player than he is an offensive player because he does more to prevent the other team from scoring by almost never throwing an INT than he does enable the the Broncos to score with good thrwos throughout the game.
Again, the #1 reason why Denver has been more successful with Tebow than they have with Orton is because they prevent the other team from scoring points far better than they did before (as indicated by the numbers I posted above). I actually give Tebow some credit for this, athough I think there would have been some improvement regardless of who was put in there for Orton as long as they didn’t turn the ball over as much as he did. To expand on this – Notice how in the five games Orton started (where the Bronco’s went 1-4) that there was one game he didn’t throw an INT, and surprise, surprise the Broncos won that game. In the eight games Tebow has started, there have been six games where he didn’t throw and INT, and surprise, sursprise the Broncos have won all of them. In fact, they are 7-0 when the QB doesn’t throw an INT and 1-5 when he does.
Denver’s best quality is it’s defense, Tebow allow the defense to shine MUCH, MUCH better than Orton did – and good for the Broncos because they have found a system that works. The only thing I question though is what happens when the defense slips and Tebow has to play in a shootout? We may get that answer next week against New England.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 12, 2011 1:00 AM MST up reply actions
And the Rox had similar luck in 2007.
That’s part of sports. Doesn’t make the 2007 run any less magical because we got lucky more often than usual. And it doesn’t make the players’ accomplishments any less remarkable.
And completing all those 4th quarter passes and stripping the ball from Barber wasn’t lucky — it was good football.
In the end, there's just the scoreboard.
And Tebow has scoreboard right about now. Big time.
Ah, the delicious irony of a stats-savvy baseball team blog resorting to “WINZ” as the major argument.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
That is the point of playing sports, yes?
Winning is the ultimate stat.
Wins are a great way to evaluate a team, not a player, such as apitcherquarterback.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Your so right
I’d much rather have Tarvaris Jackson on this team rather then Tebow….
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
by wolf213 on Dec 11, 2011 7:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You think you’re gonna rile me up by mocking the Seahawks, and that just isn’t not happening for you.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
I think you were the one that entered this
discussion as angry for whatever reason…
The analogy about the casino was a trolling comment if I’ve ever seen one.
No, this is a trolling comment.
@SI_JimTrotter: brian urlacher when asked about tebow: “he’s a good running back. he does a good job for them.”
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Considering Trotter is in Denver and just tweeted it about 10 minutes ago, I’m betting it was a post-game quote.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Dec 11, 2011 7:23 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Then Urlacher should probably realize....
that his defense just got beat by a team without a quarterback. You’d think he wouldn’t want to trumpet that if he really believed it.
Nope, that was post-game
which is what makes it totally classless, IMO.
That “running back” just beat you, and is a far sight better QB than Caleb Hanie…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 10:36 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
That's not entirely untrue if you looked at
Tebow running stats.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
And 3-16 before that
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Shhh, you’re not allowed to mention that or mention that Chicago went to a prevent with their 10 point lead.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
As I recall, they were playing their base defense or, at best....
a 2 deep zone, not a prevent. And it was the result of Denver going no huddle. The Bears couldn’t switch packages and move personnel on and off the field. So you go vanilla.
A prevent defense is when you throw extra DBs and everyone plays back. That’s not what was happening there.
The CB
were all playing 5-7 yards off the line. I wouldn’t consider that a base defense at all
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
It's loose coverage at the line...
because they didn’t want to get beat deep. That’s hardly a “prevent defense” though.
People toss that phrase around all the time incorrectly. A prevent is when you have 6,7 or even 8 DBs in the game and a three man rush. We didn’t see anything resembling that today.
Am I allowed to mention Marion Barber's name?
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 11, 2011 8:01 PM MST up reply actions
Just did.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 8:02 PM MST up reply actions
The irony is that he put together a pretty good effort....
before his miscues overshadowed everything.
Which says nothing about his running stats.
He also completed 3, (3!) passes in the first 3 quarters. My point is saying Tebow is a running back isn’t the worst thing that one can say about him. Hell, I wish they would just make him a running back and draft Andrew Luck!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He’d be a great H-back/gimmick QB. Like what Matt Jones of the Jaguars was supposed to be, except without all the cocaine.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
And really who cares what Brian Urlacher
says about Tebow anyway? It’s just some razzing by the competition.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Winners get to razz
Losers just get to dish out sour grapes.
by evers44 on Dec 11, 2011 7:45 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Meh. It's really not that big of a deal
I’m sure Tebow doesn’t care.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Why should he?
I can’t imagine anything in the world would be bothering him right about now.
Wait.
You’re a Seahawks fan and you are saying this? Did you have fun during your team’s improbable playoff run last year? How can you possibly get upset at Broncos fans for enjoying improbable success?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
We were 7-9 and we stunk. We had no business being in the playoffs. Beating the Saints was hilarious, and a blast.
I apologize if you think I’m upset with you enjoying your success. Didn’t intend to come off like that. You’re entitled to enjoy it. I’m entitled to hate it.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
As long as you can understand the parallels.
I have no idea what Tebow will be in the next week/month/year, but I do know that I will no longer miss a Broncos after several years of indifference.
THAT means something for a previously hapless franchise.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Dec 11, 2011 7:22 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand that. If Tebow were a Seahawk I’d be enjoying all the wins. But I like to think I’d be realistic enough to appreciate the astonishing good fortune that has come along with it. And I’m sure I’d be wondering just how much better my team could be if they had a quarterback that played well enough so that we weren’t having to make such fortuitous comebacks.
When the Rockies did their thing in 2007 we all had the same reaction – we just enjoyed the ride. But when the Giants and Padres were beating our asses in 2010 it was all about how lucky they were. Because we hate them. And I hate the Broncos, so there you go.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Hater
Haha … hating on the Donkeys on a Denver blog (albeit a baseball one) makes you cone across like a troll. Your hatred makes it hard for you to be reasonable.
Yes, the Donkeys have been lucky. They played the Bears without Forte and Cutler. Before that the Vikes without Peterson. Definitely possible that they lose both those games if those guys play. But in football as in all sports, you play with who ya got and don’t make excuses.
The Broncos are winning. Some good fortune, yes, but some seriously kick a** defense and team play, led by a QB who is driven and lifts his team up …and you have a 1st place team when we looked like one of the worst teams in the NFL. The defense improving is not just because of Tebow – they finally got healthy too after injuries to Dumerville, Champ, DJ et al.
But the idea of keeping it close has played well with the defense, believing if they can do that Tebow can lead the team to a win.
Well
Your hatred makes it hard for you to be reasonable.
I would argue that, as a fan of a particular team, it is hard to be reasonable all of the time. If I don’t like a certain team for reasons it can also hard to be reasonable.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Whatever happened
to invoking irrational hatred of sports teams? I mean we all do it.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Exactly
Me: Broncos, Giants, Braves, Yankees, Red Sox
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
All of my hate is completely rational.
Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves.
Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves.
Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves.
Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves.
Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves.
Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves. Braves.
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Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 11, 2011 10:48 PM MST up reply actions
You need to start generating some for the Dogs and the Giants...
…and a little for the Snakes wouldn’t hurt either. No need to do it for the Padres…they’re unlikely to be good enough to be worth hating any time soon…
Whatever happened to the
team concept of winning and losing?
I mean unless it’s singles in tennis, or golf, it takes more than one player to make or break a team.
Just a thought.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I think the notion that Tebow gets all the credit is a straw man
To non-sports fans, perhaps the focus is on Tebow, because he’s an interesting personality. But every Bronco fans knows and respects the contributions made by multiple players. Miller, Dumervil, Colquitt. McGahee… these guys are all getting plenty of attention.
You left out ping pong
although you could include it as “tennis”
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Doubles ping pong disagrees :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
right I should have put in "singles" ping pong
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Heh.
I think the key to the Broncos is that the defense and running game decided to start playing again. And Tebow is part of that running game.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
My thoughts too
/still can’t stand Denver
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Fair enough !
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
It got devalued some by wild cards/ excessive playoff berths and the concept that our kids should not be competitive. Therefore we embraced "Second place winners"
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
in the case of football, it’s the only thing that’s relevant at this point.
Short season rules all.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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We are 8-5 with a better then decent chance of going to the playoffs
your team is 5-7, and going nowhere.
Keep Hating.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
I feel pretty good about that 5-7, actually, given my expectations for the Hawks coming into the season. We’re short a franchise QB but we’ve got a lot of good young talent coming up, especially on defense. And I quite enjoy ‘Beast Mode’.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Great
Then feel good about your 5-7 and we’ll feel good about our 8-5. Everyone is happy. Don’t hate … the ‘Hawks haven’t been getting their a**es beat in the AFC West for what … 15 years?
by Traindogger on Dec 11, 2011 9:23 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
The Seahawks aren't short a franchise QB
They’re short a QB. Full stop. Tarvaris Jackson sucks, he’s godawful, a much worse passer than Tebow. I’m a Vikings fan, I should know, the high point of his tenure in Minnesota is when we finally got rid of him.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Nah, I’ve watched enough of both guys to know – we ain’t gonna win a Super Bowl and would be lucky to make the playoffs with Jackson, but he’s got a much better arm than Tebow.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Dec 11, 2011 10:00 PM MST up reply actions
I watched T-Suck for 5 years
The guy couldn’t throw it into water if he was standing on the deck of a ship at sea. Tebow is a significantly better passer.
And the Seahawks will never make it to the playoffs with Jackson. Trust me.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
And yet T-Jack’s completing 60% of his passes. Is Tebow up to 50% yet?
I get why you hate Jackson, being a Vikings fan and all, but let’s not be ridiculous here.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Dec 11, 2011 10:48 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not being ridiculous
Let’s look at their QB ratings:
Jackson:
2011: 76.1
Career: 76.4
Tebow:
2011: 83.9
Career: 83.4
Tebow’s better.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Let's be fair about that shoulda been TD
If it’s thrown where Thomas can actually reach it with both hands, there’s a much better chance it gets caught.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 10:42 PM MST up reply actions
I think
it should be removed in general with the exception of having the safeties playing back a little farther. It’s a lot like Andrew said a while back about the “No Doubles Defense” they really don’t work all that well.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'm pretty much in the same situation
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 11, 2011 7:35 PM MST up reply actions
making national headlines apparently:

"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 11, 2011 5:38 PM MST up reply actions
It appears as if all the sports luck for Denver teams in 2011
was separated into two containers – One good, one bad. The former was dumped on Sports Authoruty Field at Mile High, the latter was dumped on Coors.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 11, 2011 7:27 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
I'd like to see Tebow...
start hanging around Coors Field. Maybe some of that can rub off on next season.
"If I stay healthy, I have a chance to collect 3,000 hits and 1,000 errors."
~George Brett
Or maybe Matt Prater should pinch hit in the 9th
Talk about having ice water in your veins – 59 yarder at the buzzer to tie it, and a 51 yarder to win it, and both are center-cut bombs. Wow.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 11, 2011 10:24 PM MST up reply actions
They saved some of the latter for at least one of the tenants of the Pepsi Center...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 11, 2011 10:39 PM MST up reply actions
O/T
TrippingOlney
DENVER’S RECEIVERS MUST BE AGNOSTIC
arenado: it's Rockie for future
OT:

Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
by free7694 on Dec 11, 2011 9:17 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
Not a Tebow fan whatsoever.
But this has to be the picture of the year so far. This is awesome.
69 today, 68 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 11, 2011 11:32 PM MST up reply actions
My pancreas hurts from laughing so damn hard.
69 today, 68 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 11, 2011 11:32 PM MST up reply actions
OT: Sigh.
Writing a cover letter to apply for a job you pretty much already have is really annoying.
That really sucks holly :(
I hope it goes well for you!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
The worst part is I don't even know if I want it.
But I want to at least give myself the option.
Part of me, though, thinks it would be easier if it wasn’t a possibility and I knew for sure I had to do something else. Would make the decision making process a lot easier.
I understand. On the one hand more options are nice but yeah it can be confusing ...
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
At least the "convince them I'm qualified for the job" should be easy to fill in
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 12, 2011 6:35 AM MST up reply actions
OH MY GOD DID WE SIGN MICHAEL CUD
oh they’re talking about football. great.
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