Rockies Ink Free Agent Michael Cuddyer to 3 years, $31.5M
by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 9:06 AM MST
in Transactions & Rumors
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PrintSports Illustrated's Jon Heyman broke the news this morning that the Rockies did, in fact, make a splash in the 2011 Free Agency Market by agreeing to terms with Michael Cuddyer.
The word last night was that Cuddyer was being offered 3 years, $27M. It would seem the Rockies budged. Whether or not that means they didn't have that figure in mind the whole time is left to be discovered.
Cuddyer, 33 by Opening Day, 2012, has played primarily RF for the Minnesota Twins over the course of his career, but has been known to make the jaunt over to the hot corner from time to time, along with playing a little 1B in relief of Justin Morneau.
Over his 11 years in Minny, Cuddyer has posted a .272/.343/.451 line which equates to a 111 wRC+ (or 11% above average). Those overall numbers are a bit misleading, as every full, healthy season Cuddyer has played in has typically produced better results (3 seasons above a 120 wRC+, 4 above 110 wRC+). His 3 most recent seasons have shown just shy of a 120 wRC+, which falls somewhere between the seasons Todd Helton and Seth Smith had.
How this will impact the team going forward is the next big question. Does a Cuddyer signing necessitate a Seth Smith trade, or will they keep Smith and use Cuddyer primarily at 3B, platooning in RF with Smith, and spelling Helton and Giambi while they refill their old man medicine prescriptions?
For as much as I've griped about landing Cuddyer, if they were to keep Smith in some form (platoonplatoonplatooncomeonjustdoit), you'd be keeping a generally plus bat in the lineup in Smith and then adding a plus bat to a position that was terribly negative last season (3B). Replacing Smith in RF looks to be a marginal upgrade for a $30M+ Pricetag (minus Smith's salary, of course), but replacing Ian Stewart/Kevin Kouzmanoff/Ty Wigginton at 3B would be a sizable upgrade, offensively speaking. Defensive issues are yet to be covered, but I'm going to bite my tongue until this offseason has finished unfolding.
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More money than I would have liked
but I don’t expect it to be a disaster contract. I agree with Andrew that Cuddyer at third and Smith/RH bat in right would be best.
Nolan Arenado
And Cuddyer isn’t very good at the hot corner.
Ughhwhshahahahahahahwheuelnabah. I don’t like this deal at all!
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 9:16 AM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I know this is a place voice opinions but
Everybody says how cheap the owners and so forth, how they wonts spend any money so they go out and try to improve the team and now its to much money on a terrible player it just cracks me up
he cant play RF either... at least not well
His UZR/150 is better at 3b the last couple years than RF
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Small sample
But I agree that I don’t think the overall level of fielding will really drop between positions.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 9:40 AM MST up reply actions
No kidding.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Ian Stewart
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by Rawktober on Dec 16, 2011 9:52 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Meh
he had decent range and a decent arm. But man, was he ever prone to horrible mental errors. Going based off of watching him, I’m not sure I would say he was above average.
Ummm ...
Cuddyer (1373 Innings): -9 UZR/150
Stewart (2600 innings) +2.3 UZR/150
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 10:02 AM MST up reply actions
Well some people wipe their butts with $100 bills
That doesn’t mean that $100 bills are worthless to everyone.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
Then your butt must be red ...
…is it shame or pain?
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
UZR
stands for Unreliable – Zero Relevance.
So many UZR ratings are ridiculous that it really has no credibility. The attempt to quantify defensive ability has failed so far.
Well ...
… my eyes tell me Stewie (having watched him in 50+ games) was a plus 3rd baseman subject to an occasional lapse but also could make an exceptional play on occasion.
While Cuddyer has looked out-of-place at every position (in maybe six games I have seen him). Is that what you are looking for?
The fact that the scouts – every opinion I have read on him – says Cuddyer is not a good defender anywhere … Is that what you are looking for?
The fact that UZR/150 substantiates these claims … wipe your butt with them if you wish, but you are in the miniscule minority if you think Cuddyer is a good defender, and particularly if you think he is anywhere near as good as Stewart at 3b.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 10:51 AM MST up reply actions
I'm not sold on UZR at all
I’ve seen too many results that I simply can’t reconcile to what I’ve seen.
But I’m not going to argue with UZR saying Stewie > Cuddyer at third. My memories of Cuddyer there are vague, and not horrific. But Stewie handled the position pretty well, and it just makes sense with Cuddyer spending most of his time in the OF that he wouldn’t be expected to be a plus defender at third..
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
Here are the Twins' 3rd sackers from 2004-11
Punto 11.3 WAR (decent – most of value defensively with a wRC+ of 76)
Valencia (3.1 WAR in under two seasons)
Koskie
Crede (2.4 WAR in 120+/- games)
Luis Rodriguez
Brendan Harris
Jeff Cirillo
Matt Tolbert
Brian Buscher
Glen Williams
Tommy Watkins
Howie Clark
Matt Macri
Alex Prieto
Tony Batista
Terry Tiffee
Mike Lamb
3.2 WAR combined over 1335 games (just over 8 seasons).
Don’t you think if Cuddyer could play 3rd he would have actually played 3rd?
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions
Now list their outfielders.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:50 AM MST up reply actions
You do it.
Easier to find an OF’er than a 3rd sacker.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
It’s a lot sexier when you do it, man.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:52 AM MST up reply actions
I think it's sexy...
… that you find me sexy.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
Are you guys bringing SexyBack?
Because this seems awkward if you are.
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but I’m too sexy for my shirt….
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
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RdRnnr makes an offseason appearance.
Nice.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
I've been around, but too busy to spend much time commenting.
Thanks for noticing. :-)
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
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I don't think Cuddyer could have played 3B?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:06 PM MST up reply actions
I didn't say Cuddyer was a good fielder
or better than Stewart at 3B. I think Cuddyer would be lousy at 3B.
What I said is the UZR ratings are often ridiculous & have no credibility with me.
UZR rates Seth Smith’s outfield defense higher than Carlos Gonzales’ in 2011. That’s laughable. If it can be that wrong, UZR is worthless.
That is why ...
we don’t use 1yr UZR’s, but rather larger samples normalized to UZR/150. perfect stat? Far from it.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 12:07 PM MST up reply actions
It's especially problematic with players like Cuddyer, or Prado
who move around so much that there isn’t a really good chance to get a sufficient sample. A lot of his bad OF UZR was also from the days at the Metrodome, and with that great big Hefty bag they had in play in right, I imagine it could mess things up a bit.
Outfield UZR tends to be unreliable ..
Because the outfield dimensions throw off their zones. Look at how it rates SF outfielders so high with the weird angles at McCovey compared to the back 40 the Rockies play on. Willy Taveras is a good example for someone who wants to see how UZR zones hates Coors Field.
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by Charlie77 on Dec 16, 2011 5:22 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
where do you see this?
On fangraphs its:
Seth Smith: -5.8 UZR -7.8 UZR/150
Cargo: -.6 UZR -1.4 UZR/150
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http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/uzr-2008-to-2009/
arenado: it's Rockie for future
/crazy train
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 10:01 AM MST up reply actions
oh. we were talking about 3B
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 10:02 AM MST up reply actions
which is what DOD was on
when he did this deal. More like Dan O’Dud, amirite?
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by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 10:43 AM MST up reply actions
O’Clown!
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
This signing isnt about defense
it’s all about offense. the Rox have been trying to find a stable bat to hit 5th for the past couple of years and Cuddy is going to be the teams latest experiment
is it summer yet?
It's about offense huh?
Then why wouldn’t we be interested in a better offensive player who we could have gotten for $10 million less in Willingham?
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:42 AM MST up reply actions
I don't disagree
there were better offensive solutions out there (beltran/willingham). The only issue with them is that they are limited to one position.
is it summer yet?
does cuddyer really deserve
10 mil a year? just because he plays a few more positions than willingham? I would think if we did sign him for three years, we would then have to trade an outfielder. we could keep smith, but i’d figure someone would have to go.
Staring out the window, waiting for spring.
We were hearing 3/$27 million last night
I liked this deal quite a bit better at that price…
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
I like the idea of keeping smith and putting Cuddy at 3B
But if we can trade Smith for a pitcher, than that needs to be done. I liked what was brought up the other day (I think it was Rox Girl) about trading Smith to CIN for Volquez.
is it summer yet?
if we can get Volquez - fine
Otherwise, let’s keep Smith
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by Rawktober on Dec 16, 2011 9:30 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think Smith = Volquez value-wise
The Reds were nearly willing to deal him for Street, who went for basically nothing (Though the Rockies were willing to eat money in the deal).
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
No. He is not a third baseman.
He had to be moved from there to RF because he wasn’t good, and he wasn’t any better when he went back there this year.
I saw him make a few nice plays at Target Field this year, but overall he was slow to react and of very limited range. Not the answer at a position that needs solid defense to support the ground ballers on the staff.
Welcome Cuddy!
As much as I think you’re getting overpaid, I think you give us the ability to be flexible through trade, and though you weren’t my first pick… I guess I’m just in the holiday spirit.
Welcome to Denver, and I hope the thin air treats you well!
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 9:16 AM MST reply actions
Cuddyer better earn every damn penny of this contract!!!!
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:19 AM MST reply actions
He won't
I don’t think any free agent (unless they’re like Manny in LA and they somehow create their own revenue stream) is ever ACTUALLY worth the amount of money you pay them – the market is so inflated its not funny.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 9:44 AM MST up reply actions
Just for fun
Let’s compare Cuddyer to the guy who got 10.5 million less.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:20 AM MST reply actions
as I've been arguing this entire time
you can’t just compare the two that way. Cuddyer is a better fit position-wise and approach-wise in this lineup.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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I disagree
Back to back to back 30 HR threats (which Willingham would have given us) would have done wonders for this lineup. How many bad lineup are out there with that threat?
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:38 AM MST up reply actions
You're missing the trees for the forest
The team is clearly moving away from the low average high slugging high strikeout style of batter. I doubt they were ever really interested in the hammer.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 9:42 AM MST up reply actions
Oh I understand perfectly
And I’m arguing they are now going too far the other way.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:44 AM MST up reply actions
Watching this team "hit" the last couple of years had become borderline painful
I think they are going to continue moving in this direction. I think they should.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Lot of opinion and not much fact in this statement
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:48 AM MST up reply actions
While actually I agree that much of the hitting had become awful
But Willingham is FAR BETTER than anyone who had become painful to watch on this team
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:49 AM MST up reply actions
Willingham is the same boom or bust player we've grown tired of seeing the last few years
If you’re all for watching the same type of team, have fun. I want a team that will actually put the ball in play, especially at Coors Field.
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Are you trying to say that Willingham is not far better than the other
boom/bust players we’ve had? Becasue his production has been consistently solid for several season in pitcher parks.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:52 AM MST up reply actions
He's definitely more "boomy"
I am terrified of his K rate. It’s approaching Adam Dunn territory.
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We have lost our home field advantage the past two seasons. Those years happened to be filled with high K, low AVG guys up and down the lineup.
I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Lost are home field advantage the last two seasons?
The Rockies were 52-29 at home in 2010. It was only 2011 where things went in the toilet.
And on the flip side, it’s not like we are bringing in a high average guy with Cuddyer – He’s never hit higher than .284 in a season.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 10:02 AM MST up reply actions
but his K% is only around 16%
for the next three years, I have a ton more faith in Cuddyer than Willingham — and that is based solely on their bats and nothing to do with positional flexibility.
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Or he could have a similar (in scale) revival to Holliday
after leaving Oakland.
Until this year, Willingham’s K% bounced between 19-20%. Cuddyer’s has been between 14 and 20%, with the 14 being more of an outlier and the true range being 17-20%.
They’re not all that dissimilar when it comes to average and K%. It’s just that Willingham makes up for it with walks, which I guess makes him CDI II?
This is also wrong and misleading.
Willingham’s K% has NEVER been under 17.9% and that was in 2005.
Willingham K%:
2009: 20.7
2010: 18.9
2011: 26.6
Cuddyer K%
2009: 18.2%
2010: 13.8%
2011: 16.3
You need to get a job in politics, man.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:30 AM MST up reply actions
I have one, actually.
And, again, if you remove the outliers (2010 for Cuddyer, and 2011 for Willingham), you’re talking about a difference of 2-3% at most.
Then this makes total sense to me.
Carry on.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:51 AM MST up reply actions
Willingham's outlier was last year
which makes it a bit harder to remove. It’s very possible he returns to career norms this year. But you can’t dismiss the possibility that he’s moving to a new phase in his career where a higher K % is part of the deal.
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
Ian Stewart
Chris Iannetta
Jordan Pacheco
Ramon Hernandez
The club’s love affair with Nolan Arenado — who signifies that approach.
Hesitancy to give Rosario the starting job by protecting him wth Hernandez’s 2 year deal.
The signs are all there.
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FWIW, I totally agree with you on this point Muzia
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by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 1:19 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
They way they had it constructed
the lineup was extremely streaky. I think they are looking to create more stability in it.
I don't really understand this
Cuddyer has batted between .246 and .284 the last four years, with a career average of .272.
Willingham has batted between .246 and .268 over the last four years with a career .262 average.
It’s not like Cuddyer is a great contact hitter. Cuddyer’s also not a low walk guy, nor is Willingham much of a “high slugging guy” in comparison to Cuddyer.
K%
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No need.
It’s wrong anyway.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:22 AM MST up reply actions
This is very misleading and wring:
Cuddyer AVG:
2008: (Injury Year only 279 PAs) .249
2009: .276
2010: .271
2011: .284
WIllingham:
2008: .254
2009: .260
2010: .268
2011: .246
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:22 AM MST up reply actions
Very misleading and wrong.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:22 AM MST up reply actions
Accurate:
Cuddyer’s BA, 2008-2011: .273.
Willingham’s BA, 2008-2011: .256.
I wouldn’t say that .273 over the last four years is “high average.” It’s barely not “low average.” If you’re batting between .250 and .275, what’s the difference when you are superior in several other important categories?
It's not wrong
It’s incomplete from your point of view.
But yours is also wrong because it’s incomplete:
2008: .254 (injured year)
2009: .260
2010: .268
2011: .246
Seriously?
Cuddyer has batted between .246 and .284 the last four years, with a career average of .272.
That’s right only in that .249 is between the .246 and .284. But he only hit .249 in a year which was a complete aberration from his regular stats. He’s never hit below .263 in a season in which he had more than 280 PAs. That’s the misleading part.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
Look at the last four years:
Cuddyer’s BA, 2008-2011: .273.
Willingham’s BA, 2008-2011: .256.
Your argument boils down to:
A .273 BA is significantly better than .256, and 2-3% difference is a big deal.
Look at the first graph for the BA here and see that you’re talking about minimal difference. Then look at the first graph on this comparison. Remove the last two years, which were anomalies based on the rest of their careers, and the difference is minimal.
No.
My argument is that you are using misleading numbers to support your argument. That’s all.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:45 AM MST up reply actions
Also, using four years is arbitrary, and, as noted takes away from Cuddyer whose worst year was for years ago. It’s only to the tune of .276 instead of .273, but it’s just another way to mislead. Why are you using four years?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:47 AM MST up reply actions
I chose four because it encompasses a time when they were both injured
How about the more standard three years?
Cuddyer BA: .276
Willingham: .257
So, .019 points. My argument remains that they’re not dissimilar in profile, they’re just perceived that way for some reason.
What about Willingham’s extreme K% last year? WIth his pull tendencies, it sure appears to me that he potentially could be Atkins-ing
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it's possible, yes.
But also possible he consciously traded k% for power in a stadium that suppresses power. The 2011 K% looks like an outlier, but if it is the sign of a decline it could be trouble.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:05 AM MST up reply actions
Could be, but Willingham is the same age as Atkins
So there’s reason to think that it wasn’t the slow and old type of decline, but rather a combination of new league, tough stadium, and injuries.
Not saying it couldn’t be the start of a decline, though.
Cuddyer strikes out less than Willingham. True.
Cuddyer has a higher average than Willingham. True.
Whether you think that the difference is “enough” is your opinion. But, as Amart pointed out, the Rockies felt that the difference was enough and were not interested in Willingham. That’s the point. You might disagree with that, but it doesn’t change the truth of the first two statements.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
Should say:
Cuddyer strikes out less often than Willingham. True.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
Truth and meaningfulness are two different things
by asserting that the truth validates the statement, you’re saying they have meaning. I disagree.
They're not misleading
Again, just because you think they need more context does not make them misleading.
I just went through this battle at work yesterday, so I could go all day on that point but I won’t.
Ok, but the point is
what’s the difference between someone who’s hit .273 and .256 in all combined ABs over the last four years (during which time both have suffered through injuries)?
The difference is .020 of BA.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:48 AM MST up reply actions
Misleading
It’s .017, which is more than made up for by Willingham posting a .361 OBP vs. Cuddyer’s .340.
Also, my argument is in essentially in response to Andrew M’s comment:
The team is clearly moving away from the low average high slugging high strikeout style of batter. I doubt they were ever really interested in the hammer.
and I’m saying that Cuddyer is not really that different from Willingham.
It's not misleading.
It’s wrong. I was still on the three years instead of your arbitrary four years. Three years is .020 and four years is .017
I made a mistake there.
/smh
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:56 AM MST up reply actions
But cuddyer should hit 20 HR or so
And with a similar OBP and lower k%. He may not hit as many bombs, but will probably also give fewer empty ABs. At the same price, there’s an argument to be made for Cuddyer’s approach. For an extra $10.5 million? Somebody else would have to tell me what that argument is…
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 9:44 AM MST up reply actions
from the sounds of it
protecting 2B until Arenado arrives, adding a spot on the bench that would otherwise be taken up by a platoon guy, and trading Smith for a 2B.
This is my dream world.
If Cuddyer allows us to grab Prado, it upgrades three potential pieces on our team.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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The Smith trade idea has always been my reason
for supporting the idea of a FA signing over bringing in a platoon partner for Smith. But it seems like that option was there for Willingham too, and cheaper.
I prefer Cuddyer as a player over Willingham, it’s just the cost difference that’s making me wonder.
And I do think the success of this offseason largely rests on what happens with Smith now…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 9:57 AM MST up reply actions
We have to add a middle infielder and another starting pitcher
We aren’t done. I don’t like the cost of Cuddyer (I like the player) but it’s not my money to spend.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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if we had Prado
we would have a scary lineup. Our one hole would either be 2nd or 3rd, and every position would be a decent hitter, with varying power and average. We have a whole ton of arms to throw out there, and could re-sign Kevin Millwood for cheap, and hope to god that 5/12 can not give up 5 runs each game.
Fowler, Prado, CarGo, Tulo, Cuddyer, Helton, Hernandez, Pacheco/Lemahieu. Would be a very decent lineup, I’d be willing to give Smith and Blackmon up for that.
Staring out the window, waiting for spring.
I'd rather give up Wheeler than Blackmon.
But I admit a large part of that is due to Blackmon’s personality, and has nothing to do with baseball. Heh.
Blackmon
definitely rates a + TAR (Twitter above replacement). The opposite of Stewart, pretty much….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 4:26 PM MST up reply actions
but knowing the braves
I bet they would insist on Blackmon now. I’d give up Wheeler before Blackmon, but the Braves always want it lopsided.
Staring out the window, waiting for spring.
Depends on how they see Blackmon as a CF
that seems to have been one constant in the whole thing, is they want somebody who can take over CF by 2013 if/when Bourn leaves…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 4:30 PM MST up reply actions
for all it matters, blackmon rakes in OOTP
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Interesting take
And probably flat-wrong, considering we likely trade Smith but:
Cuddyer’s versatility will help a Colorado team that lacks a third baseman, could use a backup at first for aging Todd Helton and needs a righty-hitting outfield option to platoon with Seth Smith. Cuddyer could fill all of these roles.
- Jason Catania
copying and pasting a post I put in the RP, regarding Cuddy & 3B:
really depends on if there is anyone else brought in to do so.
If the only 3B options are "internal," I think we’ll be seeing a lot of him there.
bets on a Helton, Pacheco, Tulo, Cuddy infield? hrrrmmmmm, I no like.
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by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 10:42 AM MST up reply actions
Pacheco at 2b? Cuddyer?
You lost me
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
Pacheco at 2b
I’m betting that infield happens at some point during the year. RIRF this post.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 10:44 AM MST up reply actions
I'm betting LeMahieu.
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
Most of the time, barring any more moves
But I’ll agree with fi#2 that at some point Tracy trots Helton/Pacheco/Tulo/Cuddyer out there. Hot bats, or some such….
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
The reason why we didn't sign Willingham
is his name is to close to Wigginton. People wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
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by hotdoglady on Dec 16, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions 3 recs
I think the FO is all in
on clubhouse culture change, and were willing to pay a premium for Cuddyer’s intangibles.
Bleed purple
sans links
by Rawktober on Dec 16, 2011 9:35 AM MST via mobile reply actions
Now if we could only trade Smith for some SP innings
the off-season would be an unbelievable success.
We got rid of every player (except for Smith) on this this team that drives me nuts. I am so pumped.
What the hell you lookin' at?
Welcome Michael Cuddyer
3 years at too much money, yuck. I really wish if the Rockies were going to pay him that much money they would have come down in the guaranteed years. At the very least make that 3rd year a vesting option. Would he really have said no to a deal that paid him the same as Willingham but at one less year, with the potential to make even more? Obviously he might have but I’d have taken that gamble. Makes you wonder what the market for him was and what other teams might have been offering. On the bright side, at least we didn’t sign Willingham.
On the positive side, I think the deal serves a function with this team and I do think he improves us so I don’t think the signing on its own is bad. I do think he could be an easy guy to root for so I am looking forward to watching him this upcoming season. I just don’t think this is the way the Rockies should gone about making their big move, unless Cuddyer is much more capable at 3B than everyone here has given him credit for. If he can play a competent 3B than I like this deal a bit more.
.
Colorado is getting a great guy
Also he is a fine player, but he’s not a superstar. Cuddyer will mash lefties and struggle some against righthanders with good breaking balls. He will play wherever he is asked to play, he’ll run out every ball and relish every time he gets to take out a second baseman or shortstop on a DP grounder. He will certainly be a positive in the clubhouse. When Cuddyer has been injury-free, he hits like he did the first two thirds of 2011. He’s played through injuries that hurt his numbers in 2008 and 2010 and the fine 50 games of 2011.
I wrote on another thread that I think Cuddyer’s defense is misjudged. I’ll summarize—decent in right field (primary position). Adequate/average at first. Doesn’t have the range to play second regularly. Unknown in recent years at third—less than ten games, but he should have the skills to be adequate.
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Dec 20, 2011 8:46 PM MST up reply actions
I'd be fine with the Cuddyer trade
if I wasn’t so skeptical the FO was going to use it as an excuse to forego making a splash in next year’s free agency.
Whom would we go after next year?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:07 AM MST up reply actions
Give it a shot. Name a few people.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:24 AM MST up reply actions
To my understanding the following will be FA's if left unsigned:
Guthrie, Saunders, Melky Cabrera, Quentin, Anibal Sanchez, Delmon Young, John Danks, Kendrick, Napoli, B.J. Upton, Ethier.
Some of these players are obviously easier to sign than others, and some of them are arbitration eligible.
cole hamels, zack greinke, robinson cano, nick swisher
all come immediately to mind
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Swisher's the only one remotely possible for the Rockies out of those four.
Cano will re-up with the Yankees before ever testing the market.
Yes.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
did not realize he had the 2013 option as well
darn
arenado: it's Rockie for future
It's OK!
We’ll have Trevor Story by the end of that season! (Knock on wood)
/is happy again
/reads rest of thread
/is sad again
arenado: it's Rockie for future
"True Yankee" right there
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
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@Paul_Franz
My blerg
seriously though, even without cano, the 2013 FA list is stacked
arenado: it's Rockie for future
It's weird.
I have no strong feelings about Cuddyer one way or the other. Hope he helps, if he doesn’t well I won’t be surprised either.
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I'm with you.
I was slightly leaning towards having Cuddier after watching too much MLBN
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Twins fans are sad to see him go
You’re getting a good player and a real class act in Cuddyer. I wish him the best of luck – hope he continues his success with the Rockies!
"Nobody wants to hear me rap." - Joe Mauer
"The more toppings a man has on his pizza, I believe the more manly he is." - Herman Cain
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 16, 2011 9:45 AM MST reply actions
Maybe not the perfect price
But I think it’s good to see the FO budge and get the deal done. Will he earn the extra 1.5 ish million a year, maybe not, but if that’s the difference from signing him and not signing him it is worth it.
Also, I had my interview with the Rockies yesterday and they talked about this a little. They specifically said that as an organization they would not hire anyone they done have the upmost confidence that is a good high character person. The Rockies are determined to never have a clubhouse cancer. This is part of the image they sell to fans, an integral part of the Rockies brand, no one wants a Milton Bradley or Big Z type of story showing up in the news.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
by Bloynoys on Dec 16, 2011 10:04 AM MST via mobile reply actions
you interviewed the Rockies?
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
I think he was
Interviewing for a job with them
by ShadowPenguin on Dec 16, 2011 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:30 AM MST up reply actions
If you ask RIRF how many times he’s RIRF’d, does that break the matrix?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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If RIRF is the only one on the row
and he RIRFs himself… did anyone really get RIRF’d?
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
If RIRF is in a box
And you don’t open the box, is he RIRFing or not?
by ShadowPenguin on Dec 16, 2011 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
Schroedinger's RIRF?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
When you open the box
He will collapse into a state of either RIRFing, or not RIRFing. Therefore when the box is not opened, he is in both states simultaneously.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
It is just gameday promotions but something cool would
be is that I would get to spend a week in Scottsdale helping with the Fantasy Camp. I’ll let you guys know what happens.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
Are you really Cuddyer?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:27 AM MST up reply actions
Challenge:
Anyone care to argue that Cuddyer’s versatility/character/non-strike-out-iness is worth $3mil/season over Willingham?
I’m all ears.
When you are trying to build a contender
Front offices are always going to move towards people that have been there before. Cuddyer has played in a lot of playoff game and a lot of playoff chases, willingham has not. Cuddyer is a .338 hitter in the playoffs. With RISP willingham strikes out 25% of the time, cuddyer only 22%. It’s impossible to evaluate intangibles, but in a season that drags on for 162 games, is only going to benefit a team if everyone likes each other and gets along well.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
by Bloynoys on Dec 16, 2011 11:17 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Ohhh ... so Cuddyer is CLUTCH?
Why didn’t you say so?
And btw – pointing out a 3% difference in k% is not real convincing of a substantial difference in clutchiness.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
Playoff experience isn't important?
A lot of players wilt under the bright lights, it’s good to know that Cuddyer won’t. We can argue whether that is worth 9 million total but that has be part of the thought process when targeting players.
Also, it’s not like the Rockies were the only ones around the same number. Phillies are still looking for a RH power bat and they didn’t want WIllingham at 3/21 either, yet reportedly were right around 3/27 for Cuddyer. This isn’t Josh McDaniels and Richard Quinn here.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
by Bloynoys on Dec 16, 2011 12:09 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
cliff lee had no postseason experience in 2009
halladay, lincecum, cain, and bumgarner none in 2010, matt moore none last year… the list goes on as long as you like
arenado: it's Rockie for future
You just listed a bunch of pitchers.
The question is about hitters.
Think of A-Rod and his playoff choker stigma. You need your big bats to remain alive in the playoffs, or you’re done.
by ShadowPenguin on Dec 16, 2011 12:26 PM MST up reply actions
I'd argue that his less noticeable pull tendencies
his one year of age difference, his faster bat speed and the above categories you mention amount to a higher value than Willingham. $3 million a season higher? That’s harder to say.
Why do people keep saying the age difference between Cuddyer and Willingham is one year?
They are 38 days apart, or in baseball years, the same age.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:26 AM MST up reply actions
whoops
forgot the subject line. Sorry guys.
/takes a lap
/hits the shower
/reads Kizla
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
But it looks like a smaller gap than it is because 1979 wasn't a leap year.
I’ll admit I erred based off an earlier report and just passed along false info.
This is because
Willingham was born between January 1976 and March 1979 while Cuddyer was born between March 1979 and January 1981.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:36 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Damn, This is quality stuff right here.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Excellent, there you go. Besides the leap year thing. Cuddyer is totally almost a full year older than Willingham.
If they were both six, those 38 days would be a pretty big effin’ deal.
Huh. I never thought of it like that.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
DingDingDingDingDing!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I can't
I am a huge Cuddyer fan and I don’t see how Cuddyer commanded his deal. It made it easier for me, a Twins fan, to say good-by to my favorite player.
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Dec 20, 2011 8:48 PM MST up reply actions
Cuddy a great addition
A great match for the Rox. Offensive upgrade, plus versatility defensively. The Rox have stepped out with a great acquisition.
by Real Perspective on Dec 16, 2011 10:15 AM MST reply actions
It's done, so I'm in
I’m turning the page on Beltran, Willingham, the size of the contract or whatever. The Rox added a legit ML righthanded hitter and, by all accounts, a leader to their roster. After watching this team’s often pitiful offensive performances last season, I say “Welcome aboard, Miike, You’re gonna do swell here.”
I’m serious — I’m excited this morning. We just got better — for the first time this offseason, we can truly say that.
Well done, Rox.
Applause.
It’s not our money. Cuddyer is a good player, the best we’ve signed in free agency in over a decade. I’m in as well.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Cuddyer is a good player, the best we’ve signed in free agency in over a decade.
This may actually be a better reason to cry than celebrate.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 10:18 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Pessimist.
I love that they promised changes, and are bringing in changes wholesale.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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I'm not a pessimist
Look at my avatar
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 10:30 AM MST up reply actions
Hypocrite.
You kept that avatar all through 2011 :P
I thought 2011 sucked pretty bad. I have nothing to add to that.
by prettyinpurple on Dec 16, 2011 11:35 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
This this this
After so many offseasons of sitting around and waiting for guys to find their upside, the FO is finally not standing pat – whether it’ll bring success or not is yet to be seen. All I know is that I’ve been asking for change for a while. It’s finally here, so I will reserve judgement until I see the on-field product perform.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 10:32 AM MST up reply actions
agreed
the rockies tradition of striving for greatness continues
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Agreed
I think it’s a substantial overpay, too, but now that he’s a Rockie, I hope he has a career year & will root hard for him to do so. Put another way, I hope he reaches Spilly’s potential … which Spilly never did.
He's already surpassed Spilly's potential, and then some.
This is a guy who went 32/94/.276 playing in Minnesota. That’s way beyond where Spilly could have gotten.
Exactly!
It’s not the exact deal I wanted. But we’re like kids on Xmas morning and we wanted one of those little motorized jeeps, but we got a bike instead. It’ll still get us around town, and it’s more than we had before. There’s nothing wrong with wanting the jeep, as long as it doesn’t blind you to the fact that the bike is pretty okay.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 10:23 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm totally in this camp
Would I rather have Beltran? Yeah. Am I still stoked for Cuddyer? Hell yes.
by squalene203 on Dec 16, 2011 1:29 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm gonna have to go write about why I think Cuddyer is going to help this team next year now
Because if I don’t focus on that part of it for a few hours, I’m going to go bat$#*! crazy.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 10:16 AM MST reply actions
Credit for trying
To be honest, I don’t really know if it’s a great contract or how he compares to Willingham or Beltran. I’m just happy the FO is doing something other than recycling everyone else’s garbage. They’ve actually spent money to sign a legitimate, proven major player, which is certainly better than many past years.
We're getting a Cuddles for Xmas!
Seriously, I think y’all will be pleasantly surprised. Keep him in RF/1B and watch the gappers fly!
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
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this this and this
What the hell you lookin' at?
by Johnny Tits on Dec 16, 2011 12:56 PM MST up reply actions
To put things in perspective here
Last year we paid Cook 10 Million to do pretty much nothing.
10 Million for Cuddyer isn’t wonderful, but he will provide more value to the team then Cook did last year.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
RF/1B is the ticket
not 3B, please.
Trade Smith + prospect for pitching. I think O’Dowd’s got a deal in the works to do just that, and will be disappointed if that doesn’t happen.
If he plays any 3B, it's just as a bridge to Arenado
It’s pretty clear that the Rox believe in the kid. If he’s not there on opening day, Cuddyer may take an occasional turn there, but that’s not why they’re bringing him in.
He’s here to be a consistent and prominent right handed bat in the middle of the lineup. 3B is just a little bonus.
I absolutely agree with this.
Although, if Prado is available for Smith, that’s about as good as getting pitching. Prado can play 3B.
Pigs are flying, the moon is blue, and....
the Rockies have a middle of the rotation right handed hitter to complement Tulo.
There were times when I didn’t expect that to happen before the first two.
Street + Stewart for Cuddyer
(and 2 semi-prospects — LeMahieu & Colvin)
Would you have done that deal? Because that’s essentially what the Rox did.
I would have, though it adds payroll cost in the next 2 years. If it leads to a competitive season instead of a repeat disaster like 2011, increased attendance over the 3 years may cut the cost. It’s a gamble, but all big FA signings are gambles.
Yes, I'd much rather be paying big money to Cuddyer.
Than spending that money on Street as a set-up man.
I think Stewart for Colvin is a wash, but LeMahieu has some potential.
GO ROCKIES!
I'm a believeR!
What a Schmidty thing to do...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions
I'm working on a new concept
Forgetting about a player before he even starts with the org.
Schmidt is very forgettable.
I forget Schmidt all the time.
I would do that deal twice a day every day for the next year...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions
you have no choice to overpay for free agent sluggers when you play at Coors Field
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 16, 2011 10:35 AM MST via mobile reply actions 3 recs
Really?
I would write “you have no choice to overpay for free agent PITCHERS when you play at Coors Field.”
I would expect “sluggers” would love to come here, as opposed to Petco or many other parks.
Why do you think differently?
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Dec 16, 2011 10:41 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You suck McBain!
PRMLB - Tampa Bay Rays
by purplesocks on Dec 16, 2011 11:05 AM MST up reply actions
you have no choice
to overpay for free agents that improve your team
What the hell you lookin' at?
by Johnny Tits on Dec 16, 2011 12:59 PM MST up reply actions
l just saw a sarchasm detector advertlsed on Amazon for $19.99. lt ls speclally made for baseball blogs :)s
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
by butterfly on Dec 16, 2011 2:28 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
oh butterfly you ol' so and so.
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Is this too much money?
I thought 8-10 was max?
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
ಠ__ಠ----------------------------> 31.5 Million
wat
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The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
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by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 10:48 AM MST reply actions
Seriously, just when I was starting to think that 3 years for 27 mil wouldn't be all that bad...
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
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by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 10:50 AM MST up reply actions
Having scanned this thread, may I recap?
by evers44 on Dec 16, 2011 10:50 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
31.5 mil is alot to pay for a "gift"
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 10:50 AM MST up reply actions
You didn't pay for it.
Yeah, I know. Beer. Tickets. Whatever.
Still, you didn’t pay for it. So try to enjoy it.
So, by that logic, we should have done our best to enjoy Wigginton
Because he was something as opposed to nothing?
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
You're determined not to find pleasure in adding a guy who's quite likely to....
hit 30 jacks, drive in triple digits and provide right handed protection in the middle of the lineup, ain’t ya? OK, then, feel free. Me, I’m enjoying my morning.
I would totally be excited if we just added someone who was likely to add 30 jacks
but, alas, the true number is more likely high teens
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 10:59 AM MST up reply actions
Please expand on how he's
quite likely to hit 30 jacks and drive in triple digits
Cuddyer has only hit more than 20 jacks twice and has only driven in triple digits once. Coors Field doesn’t help that much.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:00 AM MST up reply actions
Guy went 32 & 94 in Minnesota two years back.
a. moves from AL to NL
b. moves from Minnesota to Coors
c. hits in the midst of Hleton, Cargo & tulo
So yeah, I fully expect those numbers.
We shall see…..
We shall see indeed
That makes you much more optimistic than I. Time will tell
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
Now I know why you like this deal so much
If we get 30 jacks and 100 RBI out of this, I’ll be thrilled. I don’t think it will happen, but I’d be dance in the streets happy if it does.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:06 AM MST up reply actions
What about 25/90?
I think that that is very likely.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:08 AM MST up reply actions
That wouldn't be terrible
But I expect mroe 20/75 like production
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
If he's healthy, he'll surpass that
That’s about what he would give you in Minnesota. For the reasons I delineate above, this is going to be a very different deal.
That's pretty low.
I’ll be disappointed with that. He did 20/70 last year on a team with an anemic offense, in a worse home park, with 582 PAs.
I expect more PAs, better park, and Tulo/Cargo with Helton behind him will all be pretty good for him.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:12 AM MST up reply actions
er 584 PAs
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:13 AM MST up reply actions
That changes EVERYTHING!!!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:51 AM MST up reply actions
I'm looking more at the doubles
He hit 34, 37, 39 two-baggers the last three years. That number should absolutely balloon at Coors.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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whoops,
34, 37, 29
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Esp
With his line drive rates and the fact that he knows how to go with the ball.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 11:14 AM MST up reply actions
I still think that he has the right swing to hit a decent number of dingers at Coors though.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
You don't think he'll hit 30 home runs and 100 RsBI in 3 years?
oh, wait.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 11:21 AM MST up reply actions
Everyone should SERIOUSLY stop
Comparing Wiggy to Cuddy:
Cuddy career OPS+: 111 (With 3 of the last 5 years being above 120, and an injury year where he was 89 being the only year he was below average)
Wiggy career OPS+: 100 (With 3 of the last 5 years being BELOW 100, with half of his games in 2011 in one of the premiere hitters parks in the league)
Outside ONE year where he posted a 128 OPS+, Wiggy has been a slightly below league average bat, whereas Cuddyer has gotten better with age, and with the move to Coors should hit extremely well.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 10:58 AM MST up reply actions
I wasn't comparing Cuddyer to Wiggy performance wise
I was trying to point out there’s no reason to be happy about signing a player simply because it happened
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The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
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by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 11:01 AM MST up reply actions
I could have just as easily said Jose Lopez
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
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by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 11:01 AM MST up reply actions
But the Jose Lopez
trade was counting on Lopez to rebound. We have proven offensive performance from this guy, and while he’s no Beltran, he is an acquisition that gives us more flexibility to deal Smith.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 11:12 AM MST up reply actions
"You didn't pay for it"
That’s too direct a way to look at this. It’s ultimately about payroll flexibility. If the Rockies were the Yankees and were willing to spend money to make money on an annual basis, sure, this would be a different situation. But for a mid market team like the Rockies who are financially conservative in how they build a team (financially) I think you have to take into consideration the size of contracts, the years, and how a move this year might effect potential moves in the future.
Look ... Cuddyer does make us better ... agreed.
But the idea that we can’t be unhappy with a deal on the dollars spent is preposterous. We are a small-to-mid-market team – we need to take advantage of market inefficiencies, not create them. $10 million over three years for Cuddyer over Willingham is indefensible in my view. And yes, it does make a difference to me. Check my posts over the last few days (RIRF-please report to the front desk) and you will see I have steadily argued that Cuddyer would cost too much – 3/$30 was the figure I used three days ago in a debate with RG … and I have also maintained that if Cuddy signs for 3/$24-5 I could live with it.
I believe that $6, 7, 8, 10 million whatever is a significant chunk of change that would allow us the flexibility to do something else to improve the team.
Now, if Brothers Monfort told O’Dowd – Go ahead and overpay for Cuddyer – we won’t count that $10 million against the budget - fine – sign me up – it’s not my money.
But since we ghave no evidence that is what happened – hell yes it is my money. It is money that could go into the team that I support – everyone of us supports this team in some manner – some more than others.
So get off your high (gift) horse and understand that dollars thrown away are dollars thrown away. Period.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:01 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
we need to take advantage of market inefficiencies,
Such as…
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:06 AM MST up reply actions
For one ...
I think injuries. Getting scared off of Beltran when he is coming off a 142 game season … especially if the $10mill/per number is anywhere near correct. Just as I advocated Berkamn to be a value/rebound last year … the same holds true for beltran this year.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
I would have loved taking a flier on Beltran....
but a flier is exactly what it would be. A guy with that injury history and with microfracture surgery behind him…. If you’re not prepared to possibly deal with eating a couple of years of contract, that’s a big leap to make. It would have been a bold move for the Rox, with high risk and high reward. They played it safe, and I’m not really sure I can blame them.
Again ... safe is fine ...
… but at a extra cost of $10 million? Not so much.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:23 AM MST up reply actions
I like Beltran the most of the free agent OF's
But just like the Cardinals did with Berkman, I would also only have offered one year guaranteed for Beltran.
platoons! rahhhhh!
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 16, 2011 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
16 position players. 8 starters. 1 closer. PERFECT!
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
I say this with all due respect and affection to my brothers & sisters here on the Row.....
Sometimes it’s OK just to be a fan. I know our inclination is to be analytical and break everything down to a cellular level. And that’s one of the great things about this place.
But sometimes, we need to remember that we’re fans of a silly little game involving sticks and balls, and it’s OK to just enjoy our team getting a little better at playing with sticks and balls without analyzing it into the dust.
This guy’s a quality player. And a quality guy. And we got him. And that’s cool.
It’s not like this team has done much to make us happy since 2009, so why not just enjoy this moment and look forward to seeing the guy at Coors? I know that’s what I’m doing.
by evers44 on Dec 16, 2011 11:06 AM MST up reply actions 16 recs
I'm gonna go ahead and rec this
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Because there is no evidence ...
… that we couldn’t have gotten a much better player at a similar price, or a marginally better one at $10 million less. Is that really so hard to understand? Saying we wasted money on Cook, Willingham, Lopez … does that really make you happy about overspending again? Even if, and I am on record as acknowledging, the player makes us better. Just not an additional $10 million better.
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 11:19 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes that makes me happy.
Delirously, gloriously happy. In fact, this is me right now:
Drinks are on me! Cuddyertinis on the house!
by evers44 on Dec 16, 2011 11:21 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Woot!
Wait, are Cuddyertini’s just regular martinis with the price jacked up? Maybe not so woot.
by Rox Girl on Dec 16, 2011 11:28 AM MST up reply actions 6 recs
This needs to be green sooner rather than later.
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A scene from
BREAKFAST AT WHAAARGARBLE!!!!
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
I'm sorry, but this irks me a little bit
I’m just trying to share my reaction to this deal. I’m sorry it isn’t the same as yours. This is where I come to express my Rox opinions. I don’t want to have to sugarcoat my reaction just because its “the fan thing to do” or something
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
I'm not stopping you. In fact, I'm doing the same thing -- sharing my opinion.
If you took it as a personal comment, my apologies. No offense intended.
No, no. Everyone here is being perfectly cordial.
I didn’t take anything personally. We’re all fans here. We were all ecstatic when the Spilly Slam happened, and when Ubaldo pitched his no hitter. We were all scared when Nicasio got hit. Every single one of us, no matter how anti-Cuddyer, are going to be jumping of their seats when he gets his first walk off with us. But sometimes, the team does something to disappoint us. And I just think there’s nothing wrong with expressing disappointment qua disappointment, if that’s how we feel about it.
Direct insults or purposeful nastiness is never acceptable, but who else but PR will understand it when I feel exasperated about Tracy batting Alfonso cleanup, or whatever
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 11:34 AM MST up reply actions
Cool. And I agree with that.
In fact, I’m often one of the more exasperated folks around here during the season. So when the team does something that, IMO, genuinely improves the situation, it got me a bit tweaked to see so much negativity when we should , at least, feel a bit of hope.
This is, for me at least, a good day to be a Rockies fan. We haven’t had many of those, so I hoped to come here and share the happy. That there’s less happy than I expected is what I was commenting on. But yeah, if you don’t share that opinion, go right ahead and make your points. That is is the essence of this board, after all.
^5
And you’re right. whatever you think about that contract, two things are true
1)The Rockies just signed a real live, actual FA
2)the 2012 are now more formidable then they were yesterday
So if we can’t find some happiness in that, then we might as well follow the Yankees or something where we don’t have to worry about the contracts that are doled out.
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Dec 16, 2011 11:53 AM MST up reply actions
Also, fans on here are constantly criticized by some for being too supportive of the FO
It happens a lot. So people should embrace the moment and be ok with a little substantive criticism of the FO for a change.
Cuddyer will neither play RF nor 3B...
he is going to pitch! How can you argue with a career ERA of zero??
by PioneerSkies on Dec 16, 2011 11:00 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
The man raises an excellent point.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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Or he'll end up as the primary 1B
If Helton’s season happens to go more like 2010 than 2011. I really hope that isn’t the case, but it’s a decent possibility.
And while I’m not comparing Cuddyer to Wiggy in any way, shape or form, O’Dowd continues to hamstring himself with 1B-related roster decisions that just don’t make send for an NL team. I have to believe Cuddyer’s ability to play 1B is one of the main reasons he shot to the top of O’Dowd’s wish list, ahead of Beltran and Willingham.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 11:08 AM MST up reply actions
Yes.
The Helton situation was certainly an underlying reason for this..
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
Until 3B gets settled, you can't take the chance of another corner power position....
being manned by the likes of Jordan Pacheco. So it makes sense to get some protection at first.
Of course the Cuddyer move makes sense
But only because keeping Giambi was the team’s red-hot, #1 priority offseason roster move, and then everything else had to flow from there. That’s what I mean by hamstrung.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
that GB% won't play at coors field
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Dear Mr. Cuddyer,
Welcome to Denver! The Mile High City. Please exit the train and take the escalators to the terminal, ground transportation, baggage claim.
Hey, just so we can start fresh, for the longest time I thought your name was Mitch. So there’s that. Also, just because I wanted Beltran more doesn’t mean I can’t grow to love you. Onward and upward, eh?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 11:32 AM MST reply actions 4 recs
This is freaking hilarious.
And I knew where it was going with the first line.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:33 AM MST up reply actions
I think Mitch should be his PR nickname
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Easier to say
than Cud-die-er
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 11:54 AM MST up reply actions
What is the point in changing the color of a cud, anyway?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:56 AM MST up reply actions
If he was a hockey player, no doubt his nickname would be Cuddy.
If he was a football player, he’d be C-Die
On PR, he’s Not Josh Willingham
I thought it was Not-Bel-Tran?
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
this is correct
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I think his full name
is Not-BelTran Hell NotEvenJoshWillingham. But Not-BelTran to his friends….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:09 PM MST up reply actions
So I guess the lineup looks something like this:
1. Dex – CF
2. ? – 2b
3. Cargo – LF
4. Tulo – SS
5. Cuddyer – RF
6. Helton – 1b
7. Hernandez – C
8. ?? – 3b
Not bad, we still have some huge questions about 2b and 3b, and Prado is looking really good. I would say that is a long shot though. I think 3-7 is very solid though. I’m a happy person today.
It’s Jim Tracy’s Fault.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I'm too lazy to look up
can DJLM play 3rd?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 11:41 AM MST up reply actions
Come September
1. Dex – Cf
2. Rutledge – 2b
3. Cargo – LF
4. Tulo – SS / GM
5. Cuddyer – RF
6. Helton – 1b
7. Hernandez / Rosario- C
8. Arenado – 3b
Now that’s exciting
Speaking of which...
Anyone know why Wheeler didn’t go to Camp Tulo this time around?
Didn’t he participate last year?
He couldn't handle the hazing last year.
So he was invited back.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:54 AM MST up reply actions
but he declined the invitation?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
Doh.
wasn’t
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:59 AM MST up reply actions
He hated it when they ran his underwear up the flagpole.
He called his mom crying.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:59 AM MST up reply actions
He shouldn't have worn the leopard print thong, then...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:10 PM MST up reply actions
Very funny
But what was the reason? Wanted to relax after the AFL?
I don't think we have a reason.
But I do get the sense that Tulo likes to involve new young guys each year (hence Rutledge this time around).
Tulo is empire building.
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BR's Comparisons to Michael Cuddyet
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Troy O’Leary (963)
Dan Ford (958)
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Sixto Lezcano (952)
Bernard Gilkey (949)
Alex Rios (948)
Larry Hisle (943)
Aaron Rowand (942)
Mel Hall (942)
Al Martin (937)
Similar Batters through 32
Larry Hisle (962)
Dan Ford (961)
Aaron Rowand (955)
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Carl Everett (938)
Bernard Gilkey (937)
Steve Kemp (935)
FWIW
Yeah, that's the name I going to choose to focus on
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
by Gasstation1 on Dec 16, 2011 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
Maybe he will promise a kid that he'll hit two home runs in a game.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
little league HRs
assisted by errors don’t count
Maybe he'll go bat-s on a Gatorade cooler at some point..,.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 16, 2011 3:33 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
In fact, O'Neill presents about the right kind of trajectory to consider for Cuddyer....
Moved from Cincy to the Yanks at more or less the same age. Got to a ball park much more suited to him and was surrounded by better hitters. Then he went on to have his most productive seasons after his 32nd b’day.
Fun Paul O'Neill fact:
Didn’t drive in triple digits until he was 34. Then he did it for four years running.
Ballparks and lineups matter.
if you're considering RBI, then yeah, of course they do
RBI is a lineup statistic after all
arenado: it's Rockie for future
...paul oneill?
he was basically hunter pence…. do you think hunter pence is on steroids?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
do you mean 1998?
if ever there was a team that was successful based on intangibles, that was it…. nobody even hit 30 home runs…. o’neill’s WAR is higher that year because TZ liked him to the tune of +11 runs, which is +1.1 of the 5.8 WAR. his real best year was 1994, when he hit a ludicrous .359/.460/.603 in 103 games, good for .448 wOBA and 4.8 WAR
arenado: it's Rockie for future
he once hit a couple of homeruns for a sick kid.
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IIRC, Hisle and Ford are both former Twins...
Also, if Cuddyer looks like Aaron Rowand at the plate, I am writing a strongly worded letter of protest to Messrs. Monfort, Monfort, O’Dowd and Tulowitzki…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 11:59 AM MST up reply actions
Nobody could look like Aaron Rowand at the plate
Except perhaps a really ugly stripper practicing her pole dance.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 1:08 PM MST up reply actions
I have a bad feeling this is going to be a waste of money
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
“Things people in line for Alvin & The Chipmunks say”?
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by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 11:59 AM MST up reply actions 6 recs
You rule
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
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by Charlie77 on Dec 16, 2011 5:43 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
“Something you say when buying a laser disc”?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 12:00 PM MST up reply actions
“What people who bought Orton jerseys think”?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 12:01 PM MST up reply actions
What Denny Neagle said on Colfax Avenue
by evers44 on Dec 16, 2011 12:02 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
“What Ralph Nader campaign contributors say”
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 12:04 PM MST up reply actions
"What the Sticker on Every Nickelback CD should read"
by evers44 on Dec 16, 2011 12:05 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
rec
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 12:06 PM MST up reply actions
Oh god, that's what the Rockies have missed these not-good seasons, isn't it?
Nickelback songs….ugh
Hawpe had his walk up music in ’07 & ’09
And the Rockies intro video in ’09 had a Nickelback song.
You know what must done…..for the good of the Rockies season.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 16, 2011 4:54 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
My body tells me no.
But I won’t quit ’cause I want more.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 4:55 PM MST up reply actions
“What I said when I laid my bet on the Baltimore Orioles to win the 2012 World Series”
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Dec 16, 2011 12:06 PM MST up reply actions
well, lol, that isnt the type of responses I was expecting but ok.
I can see where you guys are coming from. Maybe he will do well and prove us all wrong.
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 16, 2011 12:13 PM MST up reply actions
what tony reagins said when trading for vernon wells
arenado: it's Rockie for future
“Overheard at the Blockbuster Video Franchisee convention.”
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 12:14 PM MST up reply actions
What Time Warner said when buying AOL...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:14 PM MST up reply actions
What Chicago Cubs season ticket holders say?
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
by Thnikkaman on Dec 16, 2011 12:53 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
As do I
The guy is ok, but eh..
Colorado Offense: Making bad pitchers look like CY Young Winners.
by Colsportsfan on Dec 16, 2011 3:00 PM MST up reply actions
The most common response to a broker when she says,“Yeah, newspapers are the hottest thing right now, you should totally buy into Gannet.”
Morosi
#Tigers say Al Alburquerque underwent elbow surgery, including a screw insertion. Best-case scenario, he’s out until the All-Star break.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
that seems optimistic, even for a best case.
Dan O’Dowd’s a genius. He knew this was going to happen.
#DOD’scrystalball
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:16 PM MST up reply actions
So he's screwed?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:19 PM MST up reply actions
Mike Francesa
Mike Francesa is really smart, and he doesn’t think Al Albuquerque is that big of a deal.
So....... Why in the hell would you need that?
Did he get hit with a batted ball or something?
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 16, 2011 4:30 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Fun Michael Cuddyer fact
He has 10 day old Twin girls.
Try to get some rest, big guy. You can now afford a nanny or two.
Since he made the exact same salary last season, I'm guessing he probably could already afford that.
Isn't this job basically the same thing?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:32 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
Game. Set. Match.
JR wins every RP forever and always
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
This isn't a RP.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:35 PM MST up reply actions
JR wins every thread ever created at Purple Row
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Notable exception:
yesterday
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:38 PM MST up reply actions
Do you think the Cuddyers will take that on my resume as experience?
Salary request: $2,000,000 plus expenses
2006-current Nannied Purple Row
"I'm sorry Ms. Girl, but you appear to be overqualified..."
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:36 PM MST up reply actions
Rosenthal
Sources: SPs still on #Reds’ wish list include Gio, Latos, Jurrjens. Garza too expensive. Danks less attractive entering FA year. MORE
I don’t know if that plays into anything we had thought about with Volquez
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
I think once they get one of those top three choices, they move Volquez.
I think the Rockies are the likeliest destination.
He gives me the Dontrelle Willis feel…Although willing to give him a chance after TJ surgery
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:17 PM MST up reply actions
What do they get from us?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:17 PM MST up reply actions
package slowey and chatwood
arenado: it's Rockie for future
color sensitive laundry detergent, gotta be tough washing all that red stuff
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:18 PM MST up reply actions
They were talking about sending him and another prospect for Street if the Rockies ate Street's salary.
Street’s value turned out to be Nick Schmidt. It doesn’t seem like it would take that much. If he’s not part of a return for Smith after they move Alonso for a SP, I’m guessing part of the Mattpen, albeit not Belisle since he already came from that org.
Why are Gio and Jurrjens on the Reds' wish list and not ours?
I don’t hate the idea of Volquez, other than the size 8.5 hat and the clown pajamas.
But I hate that the Rockies are eating leftovers off the plate of a team that’s every bit as mid-market as they are, and that sure as hell doesn’t need starting pitching any worse than the Rockies do.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 12:27 PM MST up reply actions
Because Nolan Arenado and Drew Pomeranz are higher on the Rockies wish list than Gio or Jurrjens
I can pretty much guarantee that it will take one or the other for Gio. For Jurrjens, it’s hard to say what Wren’s actual price will wind up being, he seems content to wait out the market for now.
Well I get that, but
I doubt that Walt Jocketty just told them, “Call me when you want your choice of our top two prospects, and I’ll put them on a plane immediately.”
The price may indeed be too steep, but we don’t even seem to want to find out. Too busy, perhaps, collecting #6 starters.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 12:52 PM MST up reply actions
The Rockies talked to the Braves about Jurrjens
We know that for certain from media reports. I imagine they probably kicked the tires on the A’s starters too, given their stated interest before the off-season, but it makes sense to me with the Cahill price of a Parker plus package, that they probably backed off.
OT: Ummm. Yeah.
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From Romance to Marriage: Cuddyer to Colorado
Fairly unbiased and reasonable take over on FanGraphs:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/from-romance-to-marriage-cuddyer-to-colorado/
Highlight:
Let’s shift gears. Here are the cumulative 2009-2011 WAR totals of four outfielders:
A: 6.8
B: 7.7
C: 8.5
D: 6.4
Outfielder A is Michael Cuddyer. Outfielder B is Josh Willingham, who signed with the Twins earlier this week for three years and $21 million, probably ending the possibility of Cuddyer returning to Minnesota. This has been analyzed elsewhere. My own brief comment will be that Willingham projects as a substantially better hitter than Cuddyer (around ten runs a season), and while Willingham is pretty bad in the field, I honestly think that he is no worse than Cuddyer, and might be better. The only advantage Cuddyer has on Willingham is his health record, which matters, but I’ll leave it to the readers (and trainers and doctors) to speculate on whether that makes up the difference. The Rockies at least do not lose any picks for signing Cuddyer (although the Twins do gain picks by losing him after offering arbitration).
Outfielder C is David DeJesus, who signed with the Cubs a few weeks ago for two years and about $10 million. Obviously, past performance only partly determines future performance. Moreover, much of DeJesus’ estimated value comes from fielding metrics that are far less reliable than offensive metrics. Still, I am guessing most people would not have guessed that he was more valuable that Cuddyer and Willingham. I also would guess that teams may be over-emphasizing the more recent season’s performance when valuing a player’s likely hitting value. I do think the fielding gap between DeJesus on one hand and Cuddyer and Willingham on the other makes their projected 2012 performance much closer than people think (I would put all three at between two or three WAR).
So who is Outfielder D, the player of the four closest in cumulative WAR (so close that they’ve been of equal value for practical purposes) to Cuddyer over the previous three seasons? Curiously enough, it is the player whose spot Cuddyer may be filling: Seth Smith. I recently posted on Smith’s under-recognized virtues, so I will not go on at length about them here. Summarizing a comparison with Cuddyer: Cuddyer is probably a bit better as a hitter, but Smith is at worst just as "good" in the field. As the previous post points out, Smith’s big platoon split is actually something that can be turned to a team’s advantage if leveraged properly. Finally, Smith is younger, and, more importantly, quite a big cheaper (will probably make just over $2 million in 2012). Even on the most favorable reasonable projected comparison, Cuddyer projects as worth as only one win more than Smith (and I think they are closer than that).
That does not mean that this is a bad deal, necessarily, although along with what other free agent outfielders have made it does cast a bit of a shadow. There may be other moves in the offing — the Rockies have been rumored to be interested in the Braves’ Martin Prado for a while, and if they can turn Smith into Prado, they will fill their hole at third base. However, it remains to be seen if that actually happens.
I'd say that it's not unbiased at all.
It’s pretty typical Fangraphs stuff.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:26 PM MST up reply actions
I think it
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I think it's really good analysis
and Fangraphs has been biased before.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
LIke most FG articles, it lacks context.
The inclusion of DeJesus in the article shows this pretty well. We’re not just looking for a RH RF for three years. You can compare him to other RH RF on the free agent market if you’d like. It misses the point.
There is a difference between cost and value. Cost exists without context. Value ONLY exists within context. If you’re going to say that one player is more valuable than another, you need to write about the value for a particular team.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:34 PM MST up reply actions
Well, I think they're fair in fact that it's wrong to judge this signing now because of other moves to be made
They are always going to put their 5 cents in on that their optimal team is based off of WAR + value, and will always sing their praises on signings that do that.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
That's where the bias comes in.
And it’s why i don’t read much of Fangraphs.
I prefer to read about someone trying to find out if they are right or not, as opposed to reading someone writing to prove to everyone else that they are right. Too much of FG is the latter.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:40 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
Imma Rec this post
As an early reader and early abandoner of fangraphs
Die-hard Rockies fan since 1993.
Poo-Bah of the San Diego Padres in the Purple Row OOTP League.
@Paul_Franz
My blerg
Saying that Cuddyer and Smith are pretty much of the same value
but one costs about 5 times as much as the other, is “someone writing to prove to everyone else that they are right?”
I'd also add that Willingham demonstrably exceeds Cuddyer's value
and, until 2011, had similar BA and K numbers while exceeding Cuddyer in BB and OBP. Yet, he cost $10M less.
I can be fine with adding Cuddyer to the lineup while still criticizing the signing.
Again. Value is contextual.
As noted, Willingham had less value to the Rockies than Cuddyer for various reasons.
In essence, something is as valuable as another person wants to pay for it. What they are willing to pay for it is based on their needs and desires. I think that you’d have a hard time demonstrating how Willingham is a better fit for the Rockies than Cuddyer based on stated and implied needs and desires of the Rockies organization.
You might quibble with whether or not they are overvaluing certain aspects, but I think it is difficult to argue that Willingham was a better fit according to the Rockies stated goals.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 1:44 PM MST up reply actions
They are both OF/1B who, except for a few minor and one major outlier,
strike out at a similar rate, get hits at an average rate, and play mediocre to bad defense.
If part of the appeal of Cuddyer is him playing third a significant amount, the FO is severely misguided.
The major difference is that Cuddyer is supposed to be bubble gum and Willingham is more of a cardboard guy.
OR:
Josh Willingham has 3 innings at 1B in his career.
Cuddyer strikes out less often.
Cuddyer hits for higher average.
Cuddyer has consistently been able to put up around 600 PAs per season.
Cuddyer has a track record of being a community asset and a leader.
All of these made him more valuable to the Rockies.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:12 PM MST up reply actions
And, as noted, value is contextual.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:15 PM MST up reply actions
If we expand it out to more important things than BA,
Willingham walks more often than Cuddyer.
Willingham gets on base more often than Cuddyer.
Willingham has a better slugging percentage than Cuddyer.
Willingham has no negative stories (that I know of) attached to his name.
Willingham exceeds Cuddyer’s value in all objective measures: WAR, RC+, wOBA.
Degree also matters. And in all of those above (except BB%), Willingham significantly exceeds Cuddyer. So far, all I see that matters is that Cuddyer strikes out 2-3% less and is known for being good with the community.
willingham also has significantly superior numbers in high-leverage situations and with RISP
arenado: it's Rockie for future
You are missing the point that value is contextual. The Rockies value the attributes listed in my post more than those in your post. That’s been quite clear.
You may value Willingham more, but you are not the Rockies.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:21 PM MST up reply actions
Could you provide a source for what the Rockies value?
And what the Rockies may value more does mean that the Cuddyer signing at that price is a better signing than Willingham at his price.
I am arguing that a) Cuddyer and Willingham are not different in the way that it was suggested earlier in this post, b) that Willingham has more overall value than Cuddyer, and c) Smith is worth more as a platoon player than Cuddyer as a full time player.
Amart:
The team is clearly moving away from the low average high slugging high strikeout style of batter. I doubt they were ever really interested in the hammer.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:25 PM MST up reply actions
Could you provide a source for what the Rockies value?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:28 PM MST up reply actions
Bloynoys:
Also, I had my interview with the Rockies yesterday and they talked about this a little. They specifically said that as an organization they would not hire anyone they done have the upmost confidence that is a good high character person. The Rockies are determined to never have a clubhouse cancer. This is part of the image they sell to fans, an integral part of the Rockies brand, no one wants a Milton Bradley or Big Z type of story showing up in the news.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:26 PM MST up reply actions
boston fans must really regret having signed manny ramirez and traded for curt schilling all those years ago
couple of jerks
arenado: it's Rockie for future
If you want to judge the Rockies on their value system that is fair.
I’m just suggesting that, to the Rockies, Cuddyer is more valuable because of their value system. I think it is hard to debate against that point.
I tend to like the way that the Rockies operate, but it has its faults.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:31 PM MST up reply actions
Not to the Rockies.
And that’s who is setting the value because that’s who is paying the money. That’s kind of my point.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
No, you're evidence only supports the argument that he's a better person
and doesn’t show that the Rockies think anything else than that. It says nothing about what they think of him as a player.
Cuddyer strikes out less often.
Cuddyer hits for higher average.
Cuddyer has consistently been able to put up around 600 PAs per season.
He also has decent experience playing multiple positions.
Those are things that were important to the Rockies as a player, among other things.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:41 PM MST up reply actions
Yes.
But, again, those are what you think are more important, not the Rockies. And my point is that the Rockies valued the attributes that I listed more than the attributes that you listed.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:47 PM MST up reply actions
I think there are 10,500,000 reasons
to think that the Rockies value those things more than the things Willingham brings to the table…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 2:45 PM MST up reply actions
Northsider1964
Or he’ll end up as the primary 1B
If Helton’s season happens to go more like 2010 than 2011. I really hope that isn’t the case, but it’s a decent possibility.
And while I’m not comparing Cuddyer to Wiggy in any way, shape or form, O’Dowd continues to hamstring himself with 1B-related roster decisions that just don’t make send for an NL team. I have to believe Cuddyer’s ability to play 1B is one of the main reasons he shot to the top of O’Dowd’s wish list, ahead of Beltran and Willingham.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:27 PM MST up reply actions
What can I say?
I think that preferring Cuddyer over Willingham for character reasons even though I’ve never seen a negative story about Willingham is silly.
Especially when you compare Willingham to Cuddyer, or Cuddyer to Smith, Cuddyer is not an upgrade (and the quotes, beyond proving your point, make a pretty good case about him not fitting well as a player).
Papality
all the media fawning over cuddyer’s intangibles is really getting annoying
The difference in this aspect between Cuddyer and Willingham is pretty great and well-documented. Willingham isn’t a bad guy, but he isn;t being worshipped. And I believe there is something more to this than him just being a product of the Minnesota system.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
I thoroughly disagree with this.
Cuddyer doesn’t go out and advertise his character, but that it’s something that’s so easily picked up on that everybody has to write about it indicates there’s likely something there. You’re saying that Willingham isn’t a bad guy for the clubhouse because there’s nothing negative that’s said, which is fine and probably accurate, but to then extend this to somehow making the case that he’s equal to Cuddyer (who people are going out of their way to say positive things about) in these measures doesn’t pass the smell test.
No, you're mis-characterizing or mis-understanding what I'm saying
There’s evidence that Cuddyer may be a superior person than Willingham. Petro has detailed that.
That has nothing to do with, objectively or from the team’s POV, whether he’s a better player.
To the Rockies organization,
those two things are inseparable. To be a good Rockies player you also need to be a good person. That is very important to them.
What I’m getting out is there is a difference between your values, WAR, and the Rockies organizational values. You can quibble with their values, but I don’t think you can say that, according to the Rockies value system, Willingham was more valuable to them.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:44 PM MST up reply actions
this is true
it’s stupid, and detrimental to winning, but true
arenado: it's Rockie for future
This contract is very good news for the people who believe that Tulo and Cargo are outstanding people off the field.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:44 PM MST up reply actions
And also even me.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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Wait
What?
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 10:05 PM MST up reply actions
(he hates tulo)
arenado: it's Rockie for future
But it will have something to do with who they'd feel better about
should the signing turn out to be a bust on the field. They could be mistaken, I sort of remember reading some things about Neagle being a decent guy off the field before he signed, but it’s almost always a good idea to be proactive in the community if your job hunting in any field as a separator and way of getting a salary advantage over similar peers. I don’t believe baseball players would be any different. I don’t think it’s enough to account for all of this value difference, I think that has more to do with the bat speed and injury risk, but it certainly adds to some of it.
Risk averse
Having a bunch of mediocre guys who give good interviews and do community service makes for fascinating baseball.
No, seriously.
by MADness on Dec 16, 2011 2:54 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, see I wouldn't call laying out $10.5 million/season
for a 33 year old OF that so many see as so flawed as a risk-free move. But if you want to, go ahead.
there's educated risk, and stupid risk
that much money is stupid risk
arenado: it's Rockie for future
That much money,
If we value WAR close to $6 million as Heltonfan says that we should, $3 million over Willingham represents a half win per season of intangible value. That doesn’t sound outlandish to me at all. Given all the press about how great he is, I’d actually expect his leadership and character to be worth a win over a neutral character/leadership player during the course of a season.
That's ridiculous
I don’t disagree with the conclusion, but what is your formula for quantifying off-field value?
You use a term here that I would shy away from
in determining Cuddyer’s value to the team…“off-field,” as the intangibles that are most relevant to the discussion, motivating teammates in various ways to play above and beyond their usual projections, energizing them, would be very much related to on-field team performance.
Minnesota’s final record over the past several seasons with Cuddyer before 2011 did seem to beat projected win totals more often than not (including 2011, which was way under, the Twins have beaten projections in 6 of 8 seasons since he started getting regular PT in 2004) and while far from proof, this does give credibility to the claims for Cuddyer in this department.
These values can neither be proven nor disproven, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Teams have to make that judgment call themselves. In valuing Cuddyer at this rate over a similar player like Willingham, the Rockies are indicating that they give a little over a half of a win’s worth of value over replacement per season in Cuddyer’s intangibles.
Again, if the Minnesota press is to be believed compared to the absence of similar accolades for Willingham, and given studies that indicate job motivation is important to productivity in every other field, it shouldn’t be that much a stretch to see a player like Cuddyer bringing this much extra value to his teammates.
Willingham hasn't had the chance to be
the revered teammate that the MN press made Cuddyer out to be. And it seems reasonable that Cuddyer is a good teammate.
However, the MN press (and I can say this first hand) is an absolute lap dog for Gardenhire, and Cuddy was a Gardy favorite. Nick Punto was also a Gardy favorite and the media gave him far better treatment than he deserved… JJ Hardy was not. See what I’m saying? Quality of player has little to do with how the press up here perceives them as teammates.
It's not just the MN press, though...
Willingham has been reasonably productive for several seasons, but he’s always teams’ second or third choices when it comes to their OF.
Have you asked yourself why the market itself is valuing Cuddyer so high, and not just the Rockies? From printed reports we know of at least three teams that offered Cuddyer more than they were prepared to offer Willingham (Col, Phi, and Min -even knowing they would get draft picks if Cuddyer walked) and likely a fourth (Seattle.) We know of a couple that expressed interest in Cuddyer but had little to no actual interest in Willingham. And yet anybody who has access to the Internet or these players’ numbers could plainly see what you do. Your answer to this is basically, “all these teams and the market are just dumb.” My answer is “These teams are likely seeing something valuable in Cuddyer we can’t measure, and adding a monetary value to that accordingly.”
I can’t say for sure that you’re wrong and I’m right about whether this intangible win value exists with Cuddyer or not, but I know that you can’t say for sure, either. What I am saying that we can measure is the monetary value teams give to this quality when like players appear on the market.
This seems to be a textbook case of it, and it seems that the Rockies suggest great leadership/intangibles are worth about half a win a season. The Twins suggest they’re worth about 1/6th a win (this is complicated though, because of the draft compensation lowering their incentive to sign Cuddyer,) the Phillies a little more than that (probably about a quarter of a win.) Averaging these, the actual current market value of great intangibles seems to be about the same as an added 3/10ths of a win over replacement.
And yet ...
The twins signed Willingham and they were in a position to evaluate Cuddyer’s intangibles better than anyone. Hmmm.
by Traindogger on Dec 17, 2011 11:30 AM MST up reply actions
I do mention that the Twins had extra incentive
In the form of two high draft picks not to sign Cuddyer, and yet they still offered Cuddyer a bigger contract than Willingham and only fell back to Willingham when Cuddyer’s price got out of reach.
But it does make you wonder then ...
Why Minnesota didn’t value Cuddyer’s clubhouse presence to the same degree the Rox seem to … perhaps this is all overblown.
I really see it as placing value on the RH bat and versatility, and while I am not sold on his defense anywhere, the fact that he can play multiple positions of need (RF, 3B, 1B, even 2B) does have some value – I just happen to believe too much is made of those qualities and this led to an overpay.
by Traindogger on Dec 17, 2011 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
Which is the point ...
And I don’t think you disagree … the price went beyond reasonable and no speculation on intangibles can justify the overspend.
Willingham's slower bat speed is likely playing into his higher K numbers.
I think they’re more different in the ways that are suggested earlier than you are letting on without knowing how much of a difference there is between the two.
But they don’t have the same value to the Rockies. Not in the slightest. Smith’s value to the Rockies is extremely low. As mentioned, value does not exist out of context. We are looking for a RH RF bat because Smith’s has failed to provide valuable performances in the context of the Rockies. In particular, he has not been able to fill the #5 spot in the order, hit LHP well, nor hit HRs.
Whether those expectations are fair or not is debatable, but that is what is valuable for the Rockies, as stated by them, and Smith does not fit there.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 1:38 PM MST up reply actions
While Cuddyer hits the same hand better than Smith
he’s still pretty mediocre vs RHP: .728 OPS last year. That’s not so hot.
A lot more ABs come against RHP than LHP, so Smith’s handicap would come into play less of the time.
As for batting order and HRs, if a competent RH platoon/4th OF was in place, he and Smith would combine for 20-25 HR. That’s about the same as Cuddyer, and probably for a lot cheaper.
As for batting order and HRs, if a competent RH platoon/4th OF was in place, he and Smith would combine for 20-25 HR. That’s about the same as Cuddyer, and probably for a lot cheaper.
But this is not the same as Smith alone having the same value of Cuddyer alone.
Saying that Cuddyer and Smith are pretty much of the same value
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:13 PM MST up reply actions
Yes, Smith alone pretty much has the same value as Cuddyer
If you use rate stats (ie, SLG) instead of counting stats (ie, HR), and look at WAR as Fangraphs does, Smith as a 75% player has more value than Cuddyer as a 100% player.
Except he doesn't. Over the last three seasons by f-WAR, Cuddyer is more valuable than Smith.
Cuddyer’s even more valuable by r-WAR.
Cuddyer is .4 fWAR higher with 591 more PAs.
2.2 rWAR higher. Although I find it hard to believe that Seth Smith was a replacement level player last year hitting 112 OPS+. His defense wasn’t that horrendous.
PRMLB - Tampa Bay Rays
That's what Twins fans said about Cuddyer one year ago when his extension was picked up.
At least they did at Twinkietown. They were right according to UZR this season, I would believe you could be right too about Smith, but my main point with this would be that UZR’s unreliable with OF’s and should probably be disregarded almost completely.
He took a big step back defensively last year
At least that was the perception during the season last year. And UZR/150 (again, I’m not a big fan, but I’ll trust it more for year/year comparison against itself than anything else) seems to bear that out. 13.4 in 2009, 9.8 in 2010, -7.8 in 2011.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 2:51 PM MST up reply actions
In addition, I never said:
Saying that Cuddyer and Smith are pretty much of the same value but one costs about 5 times as much as the other, is "someone writing to prove to everyone else that they are right?"
It has more to do with the approach to writing the article from the outset. I think a better start to an article is:
Why would the Rockies make this move?
Rather than:
How does this move lineup with my own personal views of assessing such moves?
I think this article starts for the latter. There isn;t anything wrong with that. I just prefer not to read it because it rarely leads to me learning much more than details about the author’s views.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 1:49 PM MST up reply actions
I’d like to congratulate PetroCW and deacs for following this:
I prefer to read about someone trying to find out if they are right or not, as opposed to reading someone writing to prove to everyone else that they are right. Too much of FG is the latter.
With thirty comments trying to prove they’re each right.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
You've been around, you know how I operate.
The only thing I can’t tolerate is someone masking a subjective argument as legitimate reason. We all have perspective; own up to it.
this is the key
Michael Cuddyer is a useful-but-overrated player that might have additional appeal to some teams because of his reputation for being a "good clubhouse guy." He’s been compared to Michael Young, another decent bat and "leader" who fields several positions badly, although that is not how those making the comparison would probably see it. The recent contract is fair in terms of money, but they could have spent less either on the free agent market or taking internal options more seriously. Still, the off-season is not over, and the Rockies may have other moves in mind that will make the deal seem better, if not optimal.
as of right now, it’s not really all that good, but there’s potential.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Greatest Shocker of All Time
keithlaw
Agreed. Not a fan of the move. RT @PhillyWCWagon: @keithlaw what u think of cuddyer signing for Rockies? 32 mil three years is alot I think.
3 hours ago
by Traindogger on Dec 16, 2011 12:51 PM MST up reply actions
does he like anything?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
He's a fan of...
the opposite of the Rockies.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
He'll fawn over certain teams moves.
He rarely criticizes anything Epstein does, or Friedman. Not that Friedman makes a lot of mistakes, but I’ve never seen Klaw not like a Rays move since he’s been in charge. Toronto, Seattle and St. Louis all seem to be given the benefit of the doubt too, and it seems might now fall into that category with Luhnow.
Favoritism
Not sure why he favors successful, intelligent and logical GMs.
Doesn’t make any sense.
The guy it doesn't make sense with is Daniels.
Law didn’t start favoring his moves until after the Rangers started succeeding, coincedentally. The Mike Adams deal, for instance, would have been an obvious bad decision by O’Dowd, but because Daniels made it, and Hoyer at the other end, it somehow became a win-win. Sabean, who’s won a WS always gets poor remarks. Amaro, who seems fairly successful to me also tends to negative reviews, as does Walt Jocketty, who has several WS rings on his fingers. Law likes young GM’s, as long as he thinks they’ll follow certain SABR-creeds, he dislikes older GM’s as he assumes they always won’t.
I'm pretty sure ...
If the Rockies went to the WS at least in part aided by an Adams deal, Law would applaud it.
He wouldn't have at the time of the deal, and it's disingenuous to say that he would
given his complete non-reaction to the Betancourt deal, which was about the same thing, only with us giving up less.
Yes
It’s just that when it comes to trades he seems to more often than not analyze the deal from the perspective of the team he thinks loses out.
I actually think he makes a lot of valid points. Sometimes I think he is a little too much a a hater and I disagree with his overall assessment of things, as he focuses only on the negative and not the positive, but generally I do find myself agreeing with his individual points.
And given the response here not sure why anyone here should be shocked that he might not be a fan of the signing when actual Rockies fans, by large, weren’t in support of it either.
No, Keith Law doesn't like anything
I’ve made this comment a few different times on PR in the past, and yes: it’s a generalization. Sometimes he likes things, and there seem to be some teams/executives he generally favors. But I’ve always maintained that he is the most negative analyst in the business. Yes, he does seem to hate the Rockies in a strange and specefic way, but I don’t think that’s biasing my opinion of him. The guy just comes off as very bitter and hateful in general. Clearly he’s a smart guy – I respect his intelegence and baseball knowledge – but despite that, I don’t think he has much credibility. And wether he’s talking about the Rockies or some other team/move, I tend to tune him out.
Just a small town kid who thinks Coors Field on a sunny summer Saturday night is the best place to be on this or any other plane of existence. When a late-inning Todd Helton go-ahead homerun is added to this scenario, my brain melts.
Great writeup on Cuddyer by Minny beat writer
Clearly he loves the guy. Probably gives some insight on just what the Rockies loved about him. Hopefully it works out the way they plan….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
Spilly was greatly loved in Colorado too
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:26 PM MST up reply actions
I really want to see him back if he doesn't get a major league job
I wouldn’t give him a guaranteed 25 man roster spot though
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I want him back just so he can do more Spill The Beans Videos
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:36 PM MST up reply actions
I don't recall Spilly ever
being cited as a leader like Cuddyer was there.
Also, Cuddyer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spilly.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:35 PM MST up reply actions
I dunno about that. I think Spilly's mascoteering went a long way
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
don't worry, we now have cuddyer's intangiblesing to take it's place.
we’re totally set.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
can you touch leadership?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
Tim doesn't do that sort of thing
until he gets a ring!
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
hahaha, he likes to tough Lindsays vonn
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 1:00 PM MST up reply actions
You're saying he was the leader of the club
that’s made for you and me?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:38 PM MST up reply actions
Fun Michael Cuddyer fact #2
He’s a photographer. And not half-bad. Here’s his flickr account:
We'll let Maria be the judge of that :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I've been looking through his stuff and it's really interesting....
He gets to each ballpark he plays in early and takes some really interesting behind the scenes shots.
For example:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fivebball/5706956453/in/set-72157626690917270
Visitors training room @ Fenway
i love how precarious the swiss ball and that container above it are
they’re just waiting to wreck glasses dude
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I was just making a joke about Maria being the professional photographer and all
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I understand that it's a lot of money
But those complaining really sound like the Michael Young doggers last season. I think this is a good move; this guy has had a very reliable bat and K’s and heck of a lot less than Willingham. In my opinion, one of the best additions to this team we could have made, reasonably. And there’s no doubt that we needed it.
Now, I wonder what’s gonna end up happening at 2B?
Carlos Gonzalez has an extraordinary tendency to amplify light through stimulated emission of radiation in frequent bursts.
Shoulder-to-Shoulder for life!
Fun Michael Cuddyer fact #3
His numerology charts for December (http://www.celebrities-galore.com/celebrities/michael-cuddyer/personal-month-cycle-number/) include this tidbit:
“An unexpected invitation to visit a friend or relative in some distant town may inspire Michael to pack his backs and go. This will turn out to be beneficial.”
and yeah, I know it’s a bunch of hooey. That’s why it’s a fun fact, not an actual fact. :)
Beneficial for whom?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:41 PM MST up reply actions
"Some distant town"
Even the supernatural doesn’t give us any respect….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:43 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting piece here: "New Twin Josh Willingham is no Michael Cuddyer - but who is?"
The piece isn’t a knock on Willingham, it’s about Cuddyer and what he meant to that team. He truly sounds like a special guy, and I can see him and Tulo bonding and providing some tremendous leadership.
Some nuggets:
“But he (Willingham) is replacing one of the great class acts in the game of baseball. On the field, Michael Cuddyer played well, played hurt and played everywhere. Whatever the team needed.
Off the field, Cuddyer was the type of guy who didn’t feel it was necessary to call a news conference every time he performed a work of charity. Which was good because he’d have spent an awful lot of time trapped in news conferences."
“Cuddyer completely got it. He knew he was blessed to be able to play baseball for a living, and he never, ever took it for granted. "
“So here we are. Cuddyer will be missed in so many ways. Suffice it to say it’s hard to envision anyone representing the organization with such class. And it will be almost impossible for Ron Gardenhire to replace his versatility. On a team filled with brittle players, Cuddyer was like a human cork, plugging holes left and right…..No. 5 definitely will be missed. Some other organization is going to get a great deal, regardless of the price tag.”
all the media fawning over cuddyer's intangibles
is really getting annoying
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Fixed.
all the media fawning overcuddyer’sTebow’s intangibles
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:51 PM MST up reply actions
they've never been photographed in the same room, right?
once cuddyer leads the rockies to several ridiculous successive 8th and 9th inning comebacks, the question must be asked… is michael cuddyer tim tebow?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
And the one thing Tebow and the Broncos have taught us is....
intangibles don’t matter.
STATZ!
Two articles and you're overloaded?
Hey, the Twin Cities reporters obviously adore the guy and they’re writing their eulogies to his Twins career. Be happy we just got a real leader for a team that lacked leadership in years past.
it will be interesting if this fawning over intangibles creates a bias for analysts
who will then go out of their neutral way to prove the intangible/leadership stuff wrong.
it's far more than two articles
it’s every time he’s mention everywhere, twitter, MLBN, fangraphs, MLB.com, i’ve never heard him discussed without a mention of his legendary intangibles. freaking get off it people, he’s not abraham lincoln or dwight freaking eisenhower
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Why are you bothered by this...?
IMO it’s nice to see that this much good is being said about the newest Rockie.
because they take it so ridiculously seriously
like he’s this great, fantastic driving force of men who makes everyone around him 3 inches taller, shaves a second of their time to first, and increases their max bench by 10 pounds.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
How do you know he doesn't?
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are people 3 inches taller in pictures with cuddyer than they are without?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
You can't see it with the naked eye
That’s why it’s magic.
exactly
It’s like one of those 3-d magic eye things…some folks just can’t see the schooner.
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or how every wiggy is doing something different
arenado: it's Rockie for future
No two Wiggy's are not on fire
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
(Please, somebody get this reference)
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 1:54 PM MST up reply actions
iunno,
“Is your house on fire Clark?”
“No, Aunt Bethany.”
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 1:56 PM MST up reply actions
Some baseball players are Squirrell handed
Cuddyer is a weird name.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Some people have
rigged the enemy base with explosives. Dexter Fowler has.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 2:19 PM MST up reply actions
Some People are tall and merciless
Tulowitzki is destroying San Francisco.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Some people have southern accents, which are hot
Todd Helton is a severe hottie.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 2:24 PM MST up reply actions
Some people are about to be run over
Buster Posey has about 5 seconds
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Some people are being
fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous (BABIP) monster. Jose Lopez’s batting average is being digested.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 2:31 PM MST up reply actions
all the base are belong to tulo.
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There is no schooner to see
those things are just a big practical joke…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 1:27 PM MST up reply actions
You dumb bastard.
(i don’t mean this, just keepin it going.)
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Dec 16, 2011 1:38 PM MST up reply actions
A Schooner is a sailboat stupid head!!!
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
I don't see it that way
I think there’s this spike in discussion about his intangibles because he’s leaving Minnesota, where he’s been for his whole career, and reporters just want to pay tribute to how much he’s meant to their team.
Not a big deal; I really don’t think it’s worth getting worked up over.
NO I'M GOING TO GET REALLY FRUSTRATED ABOUT IT
AND FREAK OUT ALL OFFSEASON
arenado: it's Rockie for future
And really, as a Rockies fan, I'm always happy to see high character guys come here.
Of course, I want him to be a high character guy who drives in 100 runs, mind you.
so if I read you correctly, we basically signed Cuddyer to serve as an organ bank for Helton.
I’d pay 10 mill a year if our 1b got a new back.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Dwight Freaking Eisenhower is the coolest name ever
“Don’t you know who I am? I’m Dwight Freaking Eisenhower!”
“It’s time to get down, party people, Dwight Freaking Eisenhower is in the building!”
“Yeah I’ve got a reservation. It’s under Dwight Freaking Eisenhower, punk.”
by evers44 on Dec 16, 2011 1:10 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
second one is the best
ike loved to shuffle
arenado: it's Rockie for future
oh it's going to be awful
arenado: it's Rockie for future
*Plugs ears*
Don’t even want to think about it – ever never ever nEVER
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
Cuddyer was like a human cork, plugging holes left and right
/snicker
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 12:50 PM MST up reply actions
I guess we know his Superhero name....
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
Mr. President, The Hole in the Ozone is about to cause the earth to get blasted with radiation!
“Quick, get me Cuddyer on the phone”
"The dam is about to burst, sir!!!"
“Damn it, only Cuddyer can save us now!!! We need the Human Cork!”
This is why I want Josh Outman
He already has a superhero name.
But him in the bullpen, and it would be like summoning Underdog to save the day…
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 1:06 PM MST up reply actions
I always thought Wolf Blitzer was wasted as a newsman
He’d have been the ultimate middle linebacker.
or hit man
arenado: it's Rockie for future
or bounty hunter/caterer
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or fashion designer
“Wolf Blitzer’s new line is fierce!”
custom motorcycle shop owner
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Or own his own pest control company:
Wolf Bltizer
Executioner
Resident Lesbian Bunblogger - PurpleRow
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Rip Taylor!
Strange guy who became famous for no apparent reason.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 1:37 PM MST up reply actions
That was Rip Torn
Rip Taylor was some goofball who frequented The Gong Show, Hollywood Squares, etc.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 2:28 PM MST up reply actions
Rip Taylor? He's like a god in my country.
He can’t walk down the street without getting mobbed.
Is there a statue
of Charles Nelson Reilly in the town square?
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 3:05 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Right outside Arte Johnson park...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 3:10 PM MST up reply actions
I think I went to a Paul Williams concert once
at Arte Johnson Park.
Fannie Flagg and I were on a double date with Gene Rayburn and Brett Sommers.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 3:17 PM MST up reply actions
That sounds like fun
Did you see Dumb Dora there? She was always around. They say Dumb Dora was so dumb, that she always forgot to bring her ________ when she went to a concert.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 3:26 PM MST up reply actions
The evening was going well
Until Old Man Periwinkle decided to show us his _______.
It went downhill fast after that.
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 3:36 PM MST up reply actions
Alright I'm on board with this.
Gotta trust the FO.
Let’s just win a damn division please.
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 1:37 PM MST via mobile reply actions
I'm far less enthusiastic as I was last off season.
Good sign?
by CarloWitzki on Dec 16, 2011 1:39 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
I know the team isn't done making additions.
Prado is a realistic option at this point. Volquez too.
I’d be happy with those moves. But there’s definitely more to come
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 1:43 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Well it makes sense
We were everyone’s favorite for NL West Champ in 2011.
Instead we finished 4th.
Is anybody as enthusiastic now as they were at this point last year?
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 1:51 PM MST up reply actions
in fact, just to be safe, we should never be enthusiastic again
because look what happened when we were
arenado: it's Rockie for future
After 2007, we had 2008
After 2009, we had 2010 and 2011.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 1:53 PM MST up reply actions
I'm excited about this plan!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 2:53 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Lolz
You really are today’s winner.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 2:59 PM MST up reply actions
3 years, $31.5 million
Yikes, that’s a lot of money. Let’s hope those aren’t the numbers we remember about Cuddyer’s time in Colorado.
That said, I don’t think the contract is a cap-killer or one that’s untradeable if need be. Welcome Mr. Cuddyer, may you deposit many home runs in Coors Field’s bleachers.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I'm going to go jot these down
in my Cuddyer-ie
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 1:51 PM MST up reply actions
Is that how cows keep track of grass quality?
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
I got it.
Cud Diary
Like a Scotch Diary to keep track of quality and notes of different scotches.
I was with you. It was you who wasn’t with me.
Avalance 2011-12 season, Mission 45 Wins.
Get well soon Juan.
Ugh I'm sorry
There’s no excuse.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 2:20 PM MST up reply actions
So, Cuddyer's only small potatoes compared to the return of Zach Simons.
Also Wilkin Castillo and Mike Ekstrom were signed to minor league contracts. Simons and Ekstrom actually have fairly decent chances of appearing for the Rockies this season, Castillo sort of does too in that Pagnozzi/Fasano type of way, but having Pacheco this year might lower the chances of that.
Cuddy's walkup music was voted for last year a la Tulo.
The voting was done on a country station.
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This is great!
The winner was Helton;s walk-up song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isLqoB3v_wI&feature=artistob&playnext=1&list=TLvDN7CjNo0v0
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 1:58 PM MST up reply actions
Apparently, before the voting, he used:
"Til I Collapse" by Eminem
"H.A.M." by Kanye West and Jay Z
"One More Road to Cross" by DMX
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 2:02 PM MST up reply actions
Cuddyer's going to have to change his number
5 is spoken for here for the foreseeable future.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
Haven’t thought about that, thats a bad sign
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 2:08 PM MST up reply actions
He should wear #21 during the first half
And then burn it at the All-Star break.
Signed,
Jason Marquis, Miguel Olivo, and Wiggy
by Northsider1964 on Dec 16, 2011 2:16 PM MST up reply actions
the only thing that could make this signing worse
is if he wears #21
2011 - not even light can escape
indians sign jose lopez
suckers
arenado: it's Rockie for future
he’ll prolly hit .280 with 17 hrs there
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 2:19 PM MST up reply actions
he's got nowhere to play
they have kipnis, chisenhall, and hannahan
arenado: it's Rockie for future
makes it even more impressive doesn’t it?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Dec 16, 2011 2:22 PM MST up reply actions
Versatile
If ‘versatile’ means ‘sucks at multiple positions’ then count me out.
I don’t really care about the signing one way or another since the Rockies obviously weren’t going to do anything to significantly improve the club in the first place but if I have to listen to one more crap fielder get called ‘versatile’ because he sucks equally at multiple positions I think I might vomit.
Just relax, hes an upgrade and you will be eating your words later in the season
Go Avs! Please?
by avsfanatic33 on Dec 16, 2011 2:34 PM MST up reply actions
RIRF, you got this?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
yup
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:48 PM MST up reply actions
Thumbs up to O’Dowd for actually pulling it off. Prado and a vet pitcher and we may have something to really look forward to
Go Avs! Please?
there could have been,
if this signing hadn’t been such a ridiculous overpay
arenado: it's Rockie for future
There is still cap space, O’dowd in his conference yesterday even admitted still talking extensively about Prado, THERE IS SPACE
Go Avs! Please?
by avsfanatic33 on Dec 16, 2011 2:38 PM MST up reply actions
obviously no cap space, but you know what i mean… “budget space”
Go Avs! Please?
by avsfanatic33 on Dec 16, 2011 2:40 PM MST up reply actions
absolutely there is, CALL THE MONFORTS
Go Avs! Please?
by avsfanatic33 on Dec 16, 2011 2:35 PM MST up reply actions
How do you figure?
Last I saw, we had around 18 million to spend. Minus 10.5 now of course. Still a good chunk of change.
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 2:47 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Gives us 7.5
4 mill for a Prado leaves us 3.5 mill for a vet, and don’t forget, we’re looking at relievers as well. Also, does that include Smith heading out or no?
4 mill for Prado, 2 for Volquez and the rest on relief?
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I'd say 6.5 - 11.5 million budget left, if Smith stays. Add 2.5 million if he's gone in a trade
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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JFK's Quote of the Day:
“We have a responsibility not just as atheletes, but as members of society to treat people well. To do things the right way.” ~Alex Rodriguez
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
How many more of these ARod quotes?
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
by butterfly on Dec 16, 2011 3:12 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
sorry thls sounds so snarky, but l can't stand the guy
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
I think I like snarky butterfly :)
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
i love a-rod
arenado: it's Rockie for future
3
Two of which are rather amusing, the other is more of a praise of someone he has ceased to praise
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Somebody clearly doesn't practice what they preach
This guy is one of the biggest phonies of all time.
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:51 PM MST up reply actions
I think
he said everything I’ve quoted while he was in Seattle (tomorrow’s will be as a Yankee)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I just like this:
From Troy Renck of the Denver Post:
The Rockies have extended themselves as far as they will go — believed to be three years and $27 million — in an attempt to land their first big-ticket free agent since 2000. Cuddyer was weighing interest from Philadelphia and Seattle, but Colorado is considered the strong favorite.
Jon Heyman (Some time later):
cuddyer is in agreement with #rockies … cuddyer gets 31.5M over 3 years from colorado.
Yes, I know Renck said ’believed" but this is in large part what all the uproar is about.
That plus the fact that it took so long for Cuddyer to decide implies the possibility of another under-the-radar offer from another club this past week.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Dec 16, 2011 4:00 PM MST up reply actions
OT: Boo.
So it turns out I can’t actually get away without doing my year-end review even though I’m only on the job for another week. Apparently they have to have reviews/ratings in the system in order for me to be eligible for the incentive plan payout for the year.
Bummer. Though the incentive payout will be nice, and at least my manager basically said she didn’t really care how detailed I make it. So still not nearly as tortuous as normal.
My year-end review, by Holly96.
I am awesome.
The end.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 4:36 PM MST up reply actions
Of course!
But what other conclusion could we come to?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 4:50 PM MST up reply actions
Just give yourself excellent on everything
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
revlew / Holly 96/ best employee you have ever had and wlll be sorry to lose me .!! thanks
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
by butterfly on Dec 16, 2011 4:36 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Also OT: I always sign off on work e-mails with "Thanks!"
Every single time, without fail, I initially type “THanks!” before fixing it. Seriously, every time.
Oh good.
I’m glad to know that I’m not the only one with that particular affliction. THanks for THat!
Waiting for spring.
My typical signature everytime (before autocorrect kicks in):
THanks,
ADam
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 4:47 PM MST up reply actions
You should sign:
Thanks,
The Toddfather’s Goatee.
See if anyone notices.
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Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 4:53 PM MST up reply actions
Haha
Just wait for someone who reads the blog to be a lurker on the site and notice how much time I waste on here.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Dec 16, 2011 5:33 PM MST up reply actions
Sign it as T. Hanks
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 16, 2011 5:02 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I spell work,
werk every single time. Truth
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
The contradiction in this comment is mind-blowing.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 5:49 PM MST up reply actions
I'm not sure I understand.
I’m just saying when I type it, I always type it werk.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
But... but...
I spell work,
werk every single time. Truth
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 6:04 PM MST up reply actions
OHHH lol. I did not get that
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Welcome to Coloardo, Cuddy!
I have serious reservations about this, but now that you’re a Rockie, I’m gonna cheer my butt off for you. I think you’re gonna like it here.
Waiting for spring.
Got this from a Twins fan on another board I frequent
about Cuddyer…
here’s what you can expect from cuddyer:
-double play choppers pretty frequently.
-occasional stolen base.
-good defense, great arm (not sure how much longer he can keep that up).
-usually during the middle of the season he will explode with great numbers for about a month/month and a half.
-like has been said before, good clubhouse guy. you will want him to do well.
That first thing got my attention, so I checked it out (the “good defense” comment made me think I should double check this guys information lol). Sure enough, his GIDP % over his career has hovered between 3-4% of PAs. That’s higher than Willingham (around 2%) or Beltran (same). By comparison, Tulo led the Rockies in GIDP last year with 16, but that’s less than 3% of his plate appearances. Spilly had 10 GIDP in about 220 PA, which is about 4.5%.
That takes a little shine off his lower k% than Willingham, for me…. :-(
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
With the actual percentages all being relatively small
I wonder if the numbers would change if you control for how many times a player is up with a runner on first (versus nobody on first and thus no possibility of GIDP).
I thought about that
and I suspect it has something to do with it, but didn’t set out to try to prove it. All those guys were mostly hitting in the middle of the order, so the difference in number of PAs with runners on first would seem like it would only change based on the offense of the team, over the long term. Both how many guys get on and how often they’re being moved up/driven in/erased by the guys in front of these guys. I’m sure that’s measurable, but I have a Christmas party to get ready for…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 5:18 PM MST up reply actions
The real question is
how does that compare to the Wiggington (who, as we all know, is the king of rally killing DPs)?
Funny thing
that’s the first guy I looked at too… :-D
Last year Wiffy was at about 2.2% (10 GIDP – yeah, I was shocked too, in 446 PAs), closer to 2.7% for his career…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Dec 16, 2011 5:22 PM MST up reply actions
Wow, that's much lower than I thought.
I’m guessing that he only came to bat with a runner on first and less than two outs in about 2.5% of his PAs? ;-}
He only liked to fail big with RISP.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 5:28 PM MST up reply actions
Ah, I had forgotten. Time heals all wounds.
Actually, I never hated Wiggy all that much. It’s just irresistible to bash him, though.
What was Wiggy's GIDP%, like 83?
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
The only reason it wasn't was becasue he came to the plate more than 17% of the time with either the bases empty or two outs
Although baseball is full of teams suffering setbacks, it’s also full teams overcoming them. All I ask is for the Rockies to be defined by the latter category.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 16, 2011 9:55 PM MST up reply actions
People have to be on base to GIDP
If he’s productive in the other 70-80% of those at-bats (no GIDP runner moves up…) I’ll take it.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Hate this. Don't like the player's fit, his salary, or the consequences that will result from bringing him on board
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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by Jeff Aberle on Dec 16, 2011 6:14 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Seth Smith's likely departure
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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That was going to happen with or without the signing.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 8:03 PM MST up reply actions
I really don't get your stance here given that Smith is almost in the exact same spot Hawpe was when you advocated
trading him for the first time, and about as likely to decline quickly.
I don't get it because it isn't like we're getting rid of Smith because Cuddyer is out there.
We’re getting Cuddyer because the team no longer likes Smith. Losing Smith is a consequence of his failure to meet team expectations, not a consequence of acquiring Cuddyer. The expectations may have been unfair, but that’s a different conversation.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 8:10 PM MST up reply actions
Smith's a comparable player to Hawpe in 2009 in some respects, yes...
but here are some differences: Smith is 2 years younger, his trade value matches up much closer to his actual value (Hawpe had the All-Star cred but wasn’t actually very good due to his terrible defense), and he’ll be about $3 million cheaper than Hawpe was at that time. It was just very frustrating that O’Dowd didn’t take advantage of such an obvious market inefficiency.
I think spending less money on the OF and instead funneling that money into starting pitching would have been the better play here, in this situation.
I don’t know, it just bothers me that the Rockies finally spend money on a free agent and it’s for an expensive marginal upgrade. If Smith gets us Niese or Prado I’ll happily change my tune. I just doubt that it will happen that way.
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okay, thank you for clarifying, because I was wondering.
I have as many doubts as you about Smith’s return that the Rockies could have funneled money into SP without losing a lot of surplus prospect value in the trades it would have took and we both know FA’s are mostly futile. Their option for the pitching is sort of the piecemeal approach they’ve been taking of siphoning MLB position players like Iannetta and Smith for young starters and/or hunting for bargains like Slowey.
Since they can replace the Smith and Iannetta production (at least somewhat) via FA, it’s a back door way of meeting the team’s needs despite the reality of their situation. It’s pretty close to how I suggested they should do it at the start of the off-season.
I agree ...
Doubtful on the return for Smith, but if we a dd a quality starter and a competent 2B/3B then the Cuddyer deal is easier to swallow.
wasn’t Hawpe more money? and he was also averaging -2WAR defensively. Smith isn’t the best but he’s not Hawpe bad. I’m also not sure where it’s clear that Smith is headed for a decline – I’d assume that he’d be fine offensively for another 2-3 seasons and treat a decline next year as a down season rather than a true decline…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Hawpe was also a much better hitter than Smith has been,
and yet may have had a lower trade value than Smith does right now because of the defensive concerns. Hawpe had three straight seasons with a wRC of 120+, Smith has had just one, two years ago. Given this, I’d definitely consider another down year as part of a decline.
I dunno RG, he’s been pretty stable outside of a BABIP crash in 2010. Smith seems like is true talent (against righties I guess) offensively lies between wRC of 113 – 120 Hawpe was a better hitter but I’m still not seeing the connection between Brad Hawpe’s decline, and Smith’s inconsistency equaling Smith heading for a decline (unless there’s some allusion to people in CO breaking down prematurely…)
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Smith's inconsistency has been gradually pointing downward...
His BB% peaked in 2008, his ISO and his defense in 2009, his ability to create damage off a FB (by FB/C either in the standard or PitchFx section of FanGraphs) also peaked when he was called up. There’s a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that Smith’s not just headed to a decline, but already in one, and for an average player, that can get steep fairly quickly.
you may be on to something. well if we keep him, I’ll hope you’re wrong, if we trade him…then I really don’t care…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
I think there is something in this
because of how low the FO is on Smith. We can sit back and scratch our heads and compare numbers all day. The Rockies have more information on Seth Smith than anyone. They seem to have been bent on dumping him since at least this summer. I have to believe that its more than just that he’s not hitting home runs like he should. RG may have sussed out what is really going on.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 9:42 PM MST up reply actions
Not to say there’s no merit to RG’s claims, but I’m getting the feeling it’s less about Smith’s performance on the field and more about ‘changing the culture’ and reacting pretty strongly to a realllllly bad season. The org seems to be placing a priority on clubhouse presence and leadership. I tend to think this stuff is somewhat overblown, but honestly, I could theoretically see the Rockies needing this stuff more than a lot of other teams solely due to the fact that Tracy is a weak leader… might explain why the team was willing to beat the Twins’ offer by 8 mill…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
I think we have to consider that the FO isn't the only part of the org
that seems to have issues with the attitudes of some of the players last year. Tulo (and perhaps other players) intimated the same kind of thing more than once. If players are commenting on it, than there’s probably an issue and I don’t know how much of it is due to Tracy (and I’m not sure we know a ton about what kind of leader Tracy is behind the scenes—it’s not the same issue as lineup/in-game decisions).
I actually agree with you,
but in “changing the culture” I think O’Dowd might have also found a couple of effective moves for the team going forward. Trading Stewart and Smith particularly, and the Iannetta for Hernandez/Chatwood exchange. I guess you could probably include the Ubaldo trade as well.
I think Cuddyer should be an effective add too, but I’m not predicting.
Tracy has little or nothing to do with this kind of "change of culture."
This has more to do with players not meeting expectations. There are three main reasons outside of injuries for why players don’t meet their expectations:
1) The expectations were too high because the player never had the ability to reach them.
2) The player had the ability, but was not properly developed due to organizational faults.
3) The player had the ability, but did not put in the effort to develop it.
I don’t think that you can blame Tracy for any of those three issues.
3) The player had the ability
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:12 PM MST up reply actions
we need to disentangle player ability from culture.
If players are ineffective, then it’s a pretty straight forward issue. Regarding culture, I understand that not all players were of the character the organization ideally wanted – and indeed, shipping out players that weren’t down with the new changes was part of the DBacks’ change. But for actual culture change, a manager is going to be the most important part. I don’t know exactly how Tracy is, I don’t think he’s good with this stuff (I think his on-field actions kind of screw stuff up for this)- but I don’t know if he’s bad.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "changing the culture" then.
This really hasn’t been something that the FO has discussed. They have specifically said that some players were not handling the expectations that were put on them. They have said that they were not handling the pressure well. But I’ve never heard anything about “changing the culture” outside of that.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:45 PM MST up reply actions
It's all in here
http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_19225023
http://www.denverpost.com/krieger/ci_19261408
http://www.denverpost.com/fanmail/ci_19048539
Whether the culture they, I, and you talk about is the same thing is a different issue though…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
This is good news.
You’re a curse.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 6:16 PM MST up reply actions
Well...uh...you're fat
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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Dammit Jeff, why do you hate perfection?!?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
Yeah, let's pay $32 million for an aging league average outfielder!
At least $12 million too much
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I’m just hoping that with the OF presumably set for the near future, it opens DOD to trading for Prado.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
I think we all are -- Smith has to be used to fill one of 2B/3B/SP with a good player to have this make sense to me
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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well said, and said well quickly.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
And yet, we're hearing Seth Smith's name attached with another player
that makes the Rockies better than they were a month ago. Cuddyer+Colvin+Niese is still greater than Smith+Gomes+White/Rogers. Sorry, the so called consequence that Jeff mentions is still likely to be a boon to the team instead.
maybe
call me a skeptic until cuddyer’s intangibles lead us to an NL west crown
arenado: it's Rockie for future
It wouldn't necessarily be White/Rogers though, and getting Niese at an acceptable price is far from a certainty...
Colorado would have plenty of money in the budget to take on a Wandy Rodriguez, for instance — and I’ll take Smith/Gomes/Rodriguez over Cuddyer/Colvin/Niese. Or Carlos Beltran. That would have been pretty damn sweet too.
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i couldn't agree with what you're saying more
arenado: it's Rockie for future
What does Rodriguez cost in a prospect trade, though?
Houston wasn’t budging during the season without one of the Ubaldo pitchers and Rosario. I don’t know if Luhnow changes things, but it would seem to me he could be holding out for about the same.
that was before they were officially in "rebuild mode'
and given what ed wade got for oswalt, berkman, pence, and bourn, unless Lluhnow is some kind of magician, it probably won’t be that bad
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Well, it's a little late now, but I would have said something like White/Wheeler/Stewart
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okay, so it seems our major disagreement this time is actually Smith's value going forward.
If you saw it like I did that he was likely on a steeper decline trajectory than Cuddyer, despite their age difference, then I’m guessing you’d probably be more in line with my train of thought. Disagreeing on that projection, however, will make us see the Rockies OF situation completely differently.
why do you see smith about to hit a steeper decline, while years younger and essentially injury free?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I just replied to Resolution above with why I see Smith in decline,
the rest of the answer is because Cuddyer’s decline has been gradual over the last five years, and players of his offensive class do tend to decline more gradually than players in the lower Smith tier will. I don’t think Smith’s a good enough offensive player to expect to see a very long career arc.
smith 113 career wRC+
cuddyer 111 wRC+
who isn’t in whose class?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Goes and gets popcorn
waits for argument.
64 today, 63 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Smith's career has been an exercise in selection bias.
83.5% of his PA’s have been against RHP’s.
31.8% of Cuddyer’s have been against LHP’s.
There’s simply no way you can take the wRC+ at face value without taking that into account, nor without taking the age seasons that Smith has been putting these numbers up vs. the age seasons that Cuddyer has put up his. Smith’s peak barely matches Cuddyer’s entire career, even though Smith has the advantage of having 5 out of every six plate appearance occur in favorable platoon circumstances.
ok
so let’s take that into account, and hire a lefty-mashing platoon for smith, like johnny gomes, marcus thames, andruw jones, etc., not go out and pay michael “tebow” cuddyer $11m/year.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
You do realize that this comment is completely irrelevant to the discussion you were having with RG, right?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 9:53 PM MST up reply actions
perhaps
as i mentioned below, alcohol has been significantly involved in my evening
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Ok.
Just checking. It was a strange reply.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 9:55 PM MST up reply actions
except what I'm saying you also have to take into account is that Smith is an average player
and he’s getting worse, and average players have a tendency of getting much worse quickly. Before this happens, it behooves the Rockies to see what they can obtain for trading Smith, and replace him with a decent bat combo in the outfield, say something like Tyler Colvin and a solid RH bat that’s not in a similar decline boat to Smith (like Jonny Gomes.)
colvin brings an interesting piece to the table
in that he has exhibited no real platoon splits over his MLB career. while his overall numbers show he’s better against RHP, his only significant amount of playing time saw him showing a reverse platoon split, going .352 wOBA vs LHP and .349 against RHP. 2007 was the last time he exhibited a legitimate platoon split in the minors.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
That is fascinating.
I guess I wouldn’t count on it going forward, but if he’s one of the very rare LH’s that hit LHP’s at a decent clip, kudos to the FO for ferreting him out. Hopefully Helton will help nurture that ability in him.
Yeah, I think that it's a pretty fundamental disagreement.
I think that Smith will be a comparable, if not necessarily better, player over the next three years at a lower price (given consistent playing time) than Cuddyer.
Obviously the Rockies saw it closer to your way (though I personally think that they are overrating Cuddyer’s intangibles and positional flexibility rather than seeing Smith as declining faster).
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brb
Weeping profusely. I should have known that the Rockies would never get Carlos Beltran. sigh….its gonna be a looooooooooooong three years. By the time Cuddyer’s deal expires I’ll be in Turkey so I’m stuck with watching him till I leave :(
He's 33
and I would have no problem with him being brought in if it wasn’t for that kind of money. I get a feeling he won’t be worth it.
by Matthew Culley on Dec 29, 2011 10:56 PM MST up reply actions
oooo...a thing
With Cuddyer in right and Gonzalez in left, the Rockies could have a major offseason move remaining by shopping Seth Smith for a starting pitcher. Mets lefty Jonathan Niese is believed to be available in a package built around Smith.
/per Ringolsby’s Fox Sports article.
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by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 16, 2011 6:57 PM MST reply actions
Hell no.
I dont want Niese. If we want to deal with the Mets. Daniel Murphy needs to be included.
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Daniel Murphy scares me quite a bit with his MCL history
No question that he’s a good player, but the cost likely necessary to acquire him is too high given those knees of his.
I’ve said this before, but I’d be totally on board with Niese, especially if Seth Smith is the centerpiece as suggested in the article. Solid, young pitcher with several years of cheap team control ahead.
But we wanted Beltran's knees?
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
hardly comparable
arenado: it's Rockie for future
well, knees are knees. They bend the same.
Some not better than others
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
by Roxman4ever on Dec 16, 2011 9:23 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome!
This might be the first time that I can completely get with what Roxman4ever is saying.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 9:26 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks!
Will it turn green? I VERY HIGHLY DOUBT IT.
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
YAY!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKUOB8MN4Kc
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Murphy has two MCL tears by age 26...not encouraging
Besides, I’m sure you know that Beltran has had a much longer history of success than Murphy has had, which makes me much more willing to bet (irrelevant now of course; we’ve signed Cuddyer) that his 2012-2013 seasons would be in line with his 2011 production. With Daniel Murphy, you’re talking about a guy who has had exactly one “good” season, and not even a full one at that. Consider also that Murphy never had a particularly good pedigree coming up through the Mets system, and it wouldn’t shock me if 2011 ends up being Murphy’s career peak.
the cost of niese + murphy would be ridiculously high
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I don't think he was suggesting Niese + Murphy
only Murphy
If we want to deal with the Mets. Daniel Murphy needs to be included.
the mets are sending messages that unclear enough as it is, by pursuing gio but not making niese available, yet making niese available in other trades…. the mets are not someone who should be dealt with until they know what they’re doing, or even who owns their team, and as that $40 mil loan just to make offseason payroll demonstrates that’s not even clear.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Wait, what...
This is what rm4ever said:
Hell no. I dont want Niese.
Agreed that the Mets are sending very conflicting messages here, but I never said anything contrary to that. I was only pointing out that rm4ever wanted to deal for Murphy only, so I’m not sure why you’re replying to me.
alcohol confuses my interpretation of things
arenado: it's Rockie for future
does this help?
even when some jack ass guy makes a statement that sounds like a guy that crawled out of a bar after consuming a case and a half of beer
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
wait
what?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
You said alcohol
Oh nevermind. Maybe I should stay away from it also.
64 today, 63 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I ONLY WANT MURPHY...NO ONE ELSE
66 today, 65 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I could definitely go for Niese.
let’s just not overpay.
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 7:33 PM MST up reply actions
if Smith is the biggest piece going back for Niese...
uh, yeah. Great deal.
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I'd imagine they'd ask for Rosario too.
If they do, that’s a no go.
I could definitely go for Daniel Murphy though.
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Dec 16, 2011 7:58 PM MST up reply actions
…package built around Smith
But, yes, I would be shocked if Seth Smith is enough as the centerpiece.
yeah
i would be intrigued to see what else would be included with smith as “centerpiece”
arenado: it's Rockie for future
this is both interesting, and very relevant to the "intangibles" discussion
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I think in baseball, which is so predicated on one-on-one matchups
chemistry certainly plays less of a factor than other sports. That being said, however, I get the sense that the problem with Seth Smith’s “character” is not so much that he is not a good guy, but that there is a failure on his part to address and work on the weaknesses in his game. That’s undoubtedly harmful to the team as a whole. On the other hand, while we have heard that Michael Cuddyer is a good guy, part of his “intangibles” include a willingness to play hurt, play all over the field, and work at fixing problems at the plate, on defense, etc. Similarly, that’s going to be undoubtedly helpful to the team as a whole.
The playing hurt part likely doesn't help the team, save in short spurts where absolutely necessary.
Cuddyer takes it to an extreme that actually harms a team’s production, or so it would seem from his 2010 season.
That's true.
This gets away from my original point a bit, but his history of doing so has absolutely set a positive example for his teammates.
I guess I just think of Carlos Gonzalez vs. Seth Smith in the outfield as an example of disregard for personal health. Obviously CarGo is going out there and running into walls or whatever he needs to do to catch the ball. Smith, meanwhile, just infuriated me with those weak little slides: either play it safe and field it on a hop, or lay out and make the maximum effort for the ball. Don’t act like you want to catch the ball without committing to it, I guess.
At the same time, Gonzalez’s injuries as a result of his all-out play undoubtedly hurt us…I dunno, it’s interesting. I firmly believe that the examples of Cuddyer and CarGo do have some positive impact on their teammates; if that’s negated totally by their injury-based limitations, though, I’m not sure.
Yes, exactly.
I think some are focusing too much on pure character (what kind of person someone is regardless of baseball) with work ethic, focus, team-first attitude, etc. I think there is a difference.
I think whatever issues existed last year were less of the former (I don’t think there were any bad guys on the team, and certainly no outright clubhouse cancers) and more of the latter. And that’s what DOD and the FO are referring to.
I agree with this.
But I think any article citing the perspective of players from almost half a century ago has very little relevance to today’s game and players. The world and baseball are very different places.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:17 PM MST up reply actions
why would it not be relevant?
we still cite statistics from then, and we know statistics are real, while intangibles are not. why should they not be citable?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
demonstrable rather than real
is what i mean, i reckon
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Because the world of baseball is completely different. The game itself, between the lines, is relatively unchanged since about 1969. But the world of baseball players bears little or no resemblance to that time. There wasn’t even a CBA until 1968. There wasn’t free agency until 1974.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:37 PM MST up reply actions
so?
none of what’s in that article changes based on the existence of free agency
arenado: it's Rockie for future
The type of people that the players are has drastically changed due to the existence of free agency and the focus on sports as a key part of the entertainment industry in the United States.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:46 PM MST up reply actions
i'm just going to have to disagree
bob gibson says my beliefs better than i can: Too much is made of camaraderie and chemistry and all that stuff. I don’t need a teammate that I love. Give me one who can play.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Bob Gibson played in a time when you HAD to play with your teammates because you had no choice. Bob Gibson couldn’t go to another team. he couldn’t force a trade. His perspective is going to be pretty different from someone who can demand anything he wants and receive it.
In an era in which the players have more control over their workplace than the managers do, the players are going to want BOTH players who can play and players that they can get along with. If not, they will go some place that better suits them.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:54 PM MST up reply actions
This doesn’t make Bob Gibson or you wrong in your beliefs. But it makes his quote a little less relevant to today’s players.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Dec 16, 2011 10:55 PM MST up reply actions
I get the sense that in some ways perhaps some on the team were too friendly.
In that they weren’t holding each other (or themselves in some cases) accountable. That kind of thing contributes, in my opinion, to the kind of chemistry that can help a team win. Chemistry isn’t all about singing kumbayah in the clubhouse, nor is it all about everyone wanting to go to barbecues at each others’ houses.
no, it's about producing winners
and we’ll just have to wait until november to pass that judgment once and for all, i guess
arenado: it's Rockie for future
And producing winners isn't all about what's on players' stat sheets, either.
There’s no way to measure the other stuff, which is why these kinds of dicussions are inherently difficult, but I think the people on the inside (players, managers, FO) know a lot more about who/what may have contributed or not contributed to winning or losing in that regard than we do.
Updated sig.
Top line anyway
64 today, 63 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
its getting closer
Day by day
64 today, 63 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Everybody is calling him Cuddy.
Does this mean that he will have to watch over Tracy? Think about the show “House”.
64 today, 63 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I'm going to call him Mitch
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