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Get Involved: ERA, FIP and xFIP

With the off-season mercifully winding down, and with a lot of new(er) faces on the site, it's an opportune time to go into two frequently mentioned advanced metrics: Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) and expected Fielding Independent Pitching (xFIP).  This isn't tended to be an "us versus them" lecture, nor is it meant to condescend or browbeat. 

Is it rocket science?

Many people on the site seem fine with FIP and xFIP, and its use has come a long way since the first orientation was given on Purple Row in April '09.  It's not particularly new anymore, and the theory of Defense Independent Pitching Statistics (DIPS), conceived and developed by Voros McCracken, has been around for about a decade.  McCracken and DIPS even have their own Wikipedia pages, and McCracken worked for the Red Sox for a time, which is pretty neat. 

Before we go further, I think it's important to share that I'm not a math guy.  I did fine with it in high school, but never much enjoyed it.  I took two math classes in college because it was the minimum to satisfy the core curriculum requirement: intro statistics, and intro calculus.  I scraped together a B in stats, and got a C- in calculus.  (In my defense, it was an 8 AM three times per week during a less responsible era in life.) 

FIP and xFIP rely on the same fundamental numbers that people use in the course of normal baseball discussion: HR, BB, HBP, K.  There's no magic, and the formula (which can be seen in the above link to the Fangraphs glossary) is pretty easy to grasp: HRs, BBs and Ks are appropriately weighted and divided by innings pitched, and a constant is added to give the final product an ERA-esque look.  It's only slightly more complicated than commonly referenced staples like OBP and SLG.  They do some interesting math stuff that wouldn't have occurred to me, but, even with my very limited abilities, I can understand it.

After the jump is a video - humorous, mildly insulting, but to the point - that illustrates how FIP works.  If you haven't seen before, you should watch it.  If you have seen it, you know it's worth watching again.

Star-divide

It was created by Bradley Woodrum, is a cinematic masterpiece, and is plenty safe for work:

FIP: A New ERA (via homebodywithalaptop)

Behind ERA

ERA serves a purpose, but fans of advanced metrics believe it serves a different purpose than what people have assumed for a long time.  The argument is that it's more of a team statistic than a measurement of a pitcher's performance.   Earned runs are the result of a person hitting a home run, or by reaching base (hit, walk, HPB, etc) and advancing to home when another batter(s) has successfully reached base, by stealing home, or by sacrifice.  While it's hard to get past the idea that a pitcher is responsible for any earned run that crosses the plate, but the pitcher is solely responsible for very little within that dynamic.

For years, color commentators and sportswriters have assured us that it's the pitcher's job to prevent runs from scoring.  Yet it's as much the General Manager's job to prevent runs from scoring as the pitcher.   The pitcher can't prevent runs without mound without a competent defense, nor can the pitcher pick his own defense. 

Following the explanation in the video, FIP/xFIP tries to eliminate three big variables that are passively accounted* for in ERA: defense, managerial decisions, and scoring decisions/situational MLB rules.

*"passively accounted for" meaning that they are implicitly built into how a run is created, but are out of the pitcher's control

As indicated in the video, the ability of fielders is particularly influential in creating a run.  Sometimes a hit is a frozen rope single over the second baseman's head; sometimes it's a roller just to the left side of second and Yuniesky Betancourt is your shortstop.  One of those is always going to be a hit, and the other is highly variable depending on the fielder.

Imagine there's two outs and a man on second, and the ball goes past Betancourt for a hit.  A run scores to break a 3-3 tie.  The next man up hits a two-run home run, and the game is 6-3.   Now, go through the same scenario with Tulowitzki as the shortstop.  There's a good chance that Tulo gets to the ball and completes the out.  Even if Tulo doesn't complete the play, but gets to the ball when there's a man, he might stop the lead runner at third.  Then, JDLR gets three quick outs and the game remains tied. 

Sometimes, a good fielder can still make a mistake and be a better friend to the pitcher than the bad fielder.  Say, Tulo ranges to his left, dives for the ball, but throws it away.  It goes as an error.  Betancourt would never have gotten to the ball, and it goes as a hit.  So, Tulo saves the pitcher runs, even though he cost the team runs.

Further, the ways in which a manager creates a conditional outcome by changing pitchers.  How many times, as a real-time fan or a fantasy baseball manager, have you been left speechless when your starting pitcher is pulled and the reliever promptly gives up a game-tying hit, walk, home run, whatever, leaving your team and starting pitcher with a loss?  Throw an intentional walk and then a pull into that mix.  Should the starting pitcher be judged solely by the two additional earned runs and a loss because, with two out, two on, and up one run, he was pulled for a reliever who promptly gave up a home run?  

Also consider how the rules of scoring and scorers can impact a game.  Try to imagine the different ways that a scorer can interpret "slow handling of the ball" or "ordinary effort" as mentioned in Rule 10.12(a)(1).  Once you've deciphered everything in that section, read Rule 10.16, "Earned Runs and Runs Allowed."  Here's an example from that section:

(1) Peter pitches and retires Abel and Baker, the first two batters of an inning. Charlie reaches first base on an error charged to a fielder. Daniel hits a home run. Edward hits a home run. Peter retires Frank to end the inning. Three runs have scored, but no earned runs are charged to Peter, because Charlie should have been the third out of the inning, as reconstructed without the error.

This rule was one of my favorite discoveries as a fantasy baseball player.  If an error was made after the second out was recorded, a pitcher can give up five home runs and have none of them counted as earned runs.  It would be easy to see where the pitcher would be given a pass on the next batter after the error, but it's entirely arbitrary to absolve the pitcher for the rest of the inning. 

This is where the distinction between earned and unearned runs starts to erode the legitimacy of ERA as a measurement of pitchers: 1) it acknowledges that some runs team runs and others are pitcher runs, and 2) if the error is dependent on a good defender getting a bad break (getting to a tough ball but mishandling it) or a defender with bad range not getting near a tough ball allowing it to go for a hit, those 3-4 extra runs will be assigned differently.

What makes FIP and xFIP different?

FIP/xFIP make it easier to determine a pitcher's skill by eliminating a lot of the ambiguity that defines ERA.*  There's no worrying about a scorer impacting a pitcher's final line.  It doesn't matter what deserved to be a hit and what deserved to be an error, and whether that maybe hit/maybe error that allowed a run to score should count against the pitcher.  There's no worrying about whether Rafael Betancourt deserves to get punished because Matt Belisle came on and allowed his runner to score.  If, for example, Betancourt walked the guy, he still gets punished.  There's no worrying about what Zack Greinke would look like with a stellar defense. 

*As the video notes, FIP doesn't eliminate all of the variables; the umpire can still influence strikeouts and walks, some parks will still have more/less foul space or shorter/longer outfield fences, and there will still be some luck involved (though less than in ERA). 

All the pitcher is judged on are things reasonably and reliably within his control: 1) whether he can find the strike zone (BB and HBP); 2) whether he can keep the ball away from the batter's wheelhouse (HR); and 3) how many outs he can get without relying on his defense (K). 

Within those factors, three variables still impact the pitcher: 1) an umpire still has an impact on the strike zone, which could impact walks and/or the opportunities for a hitter within an at bat; 2) the dimensions of a park may make it easier/harder to hit home runs, and may impact the length of an at bat by giving more or less foul territory; and 3) good or bad luck may still impact how many home runs a pitcher gives up (unlucky placement), or whether he can get a strikeout (maybe the batter makes weak contact).

xFIP goes a step further, good or bad depending on the extent to which you think HR are dependent on good or bad luck, by using an expected number of HR allowed in the formula instead of the actual number of HR allowed.  The expected number of HR allowed is obtained by multiplying the number of FB by the average HR/FB rate (~10.6%), and weighting that number in the same way as FIP (this is what makes xFIP park adjusted).  HR/FB tends to greatly fluctuate from year to year, so there is some value.  However, it is possible for a pitcher to consistently underperform his HR/FB rate. 

How does it apply to the Rockies?

Fangraphs provides CC Sabathia as an example, but for instance, Ubaldo Jimenez's 5.1% HR/FB rate explains why his xFIP (3.73) was significantly higher than his ERA (2.88) and FIP (3.10).  xFIP would have expected double the home runs (21 vs. 10) in 2010.  For three straight years, Ubaldo has had an xFIP more than .19 above his ERA or FIP.  The spread has been as wide as wide as .85.   It's a significant disparity, and a lot of the disparity is tied to his low, low HR/FB in recent years, although the improving, but still rough BB/9 will also generally lead to a gap between ERA and FIP/xFIP.

FIP and xFIP aren't as kind to Ubaldo as ERA, but he may not deserve the kind treatment that ERA provides.  In 2010, his FIP and ERA were within the top 10% of all pitchers.  That's pretty impressive, especially considering his BB/9 was not the greatest, but FIP pretty much backed up ERA.  On the other hand, his xFIP was only within the top 25%.  This is mostly because his high GB% leaves few opportunities for FBs, and within that, relatively few FBs turn into HRs.  As was frequently discussed last summer when some arbitrarily dismissed Ubaldo's amazing start based on a huge ERA/xFIP disparity, this may be a bit unfair.  Ubaldo has had three straight years with a HR/FB rate significantly lower than the average.  xFIP can't take into account the type of contact made against Ubaldo, and that contact (especially in the first half of last season) may drive down his HR allowed.

Going Forward

I don't think of FIP and xFIP as needing to demonstrate their value relative to ERA, because they're based on an entirely separate philosophy.  However, as noted in the video, one of the supposedly superior aspects of FIP/xFIP is that they have a better predictive value going forward.  Next time, I'd like to demonstrate that value using Rockies pitchers.

In the meantime, please let me know if this exercise has been a complete waste, or if any of the illustrations are confusing.  Initially, it's difficult to believe in a new statistic that purports to measure a player in a similar and better fashion than a well known metric, but it really is a philosophical difference.  Once you consider what each metric really measures, I don't think you'll never look at FIP/xFIP and ERA in the same way.

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Thanks for this article

I am hesitant about xFIP because it seems to me like some pitchers may be able to control their HR/FB rate while others cannot. Who knows.
Apparently Belisle led the league in xFIP though.

by black_knight101 on Feb 16, 2011 1:21 PM MST reply actions  

Yea, that is something that is a hot topic right now.

See any discussion of Matt Cain.

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 3:35 PM MST up reply actions  

but on a serious note...

if FIP tries to take away all factors that the pitcher cannot control, how are K’s and BB’s included? how many times has an umpire changed the outcome of an inning or game by calling a questionable pitch one way or the other? the pitch could have been over the corner, and called a ball, loading up the bases instead of ending the inning with a K. and vice versa. how are these things taken into account?

Jim Tracy is My Homeboy

by ZTC_87 on Feb 16, 2011 1:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah

this is my issue. The stat certainly has value as a piece to the puzzle, but the sanctity with which its often treated is bizarre in light of the overwhelming impact that human judgment has on its results. Once Questec or whatever takes over, might be on to something. But until then…

by Teekalong on Feb 16, 2011 9:28 PM MST up reply actions  

It's treated with a certain sanctity

because it is the absolute best anyone has to offer right now. SABR-heads are constantly taking stats like FIP and “diving deeper” into the underlying components. Someday, someone will draw a new connection and create a new model that better measures pitcher ability than FIP. But until then, it’s our best option.

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 9:59 PM MST up reply actions  

I see what you’re saying, but I think most people, unless they’re careless in using xFIP, are well aware of its core limitation. It’s a stat that regresses a raw number (HR allowed) without accounting for that regression in any way. That can be a major problem, and if Rockies fans can pick up on that problem by way of Ubaldo, fans of other teams can understand that problem by way of one of their pitchers (or a successful, popular pitcher like Ubaldo).

As you mention below, the next step beyond regressing HRs is to incorporate a sub-layer into the formula. The most obvious candidate is augmenting the HR regression by somehow accounting for the inherent difference between FB and GB pitchers.

by deacs on Feb 16, 2011 10:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Yea, I agree

I was more going towards the comment about strike zone biases, but HR rates are in the same boat.

I think it comes down to the idea that a pitcher can be “unhittable” (i.e. low H/9 and low HR/9) without a high K/9. When we go deeper into truly regressing HR rates (as shown in this new Fangraphs piece), we will develop an “xHR/FB” stat that will be the new component of x-xFIP.

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 11:40 PM MST up reply actions  

It doesn't take them into account, you are correct

But over the vast sample sizes you can apply it to, those things mostly even out. I say mostly because, as noted over at BtB, some pitchers (See Hernandez, Livan) get a HUGE zone compared to other pitchers (See Hernandez, Felix.)

That’s the next frontier for DIPS stats – the underlying statistics behind K’s, BB’s, and HR’s. Things like whiff rate, zone rate, batted ball rates, etc.

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 9:56 PM MST up reply actions  

"those things mostly even out"

is that true? I’ve never seen a study demonstrating that, though maybe someone has tried it. I doubt it could be conclusive in any case, given the significance of context.

These stats are what they are, and not altogether different from the “traditional” stuff, interesting, sometimes valuable, and highly flawed. Baby steps in progress and all that, I suppose.

by Teekalong on Feb 16, 2011 10:23 PM MST up reply actions  

Baby steps in progress and all that, I suppose.

I like that you say they’re not altogether different from the “traditional” stuff becuase they’re really not. They are highly flawed in some ways, or, thought of in a different way, they are narrowly drawn figures that are meant to be more precise than other metrics.

FIP and xFIP’s narrow focus is what allows them to be criticized easily; it’s harder to figure out what to criticize about ERA without diving into the idea of how a run is created.

Beyond introducing a different philosophy in player analysis, I think the biggest baby step is that FIP (and xFIP) is transparent in its limitations. Most people who have driven them into the mainstream are forthright about what the new metric accomplishes: evaluate the pitcher based on what they control on a macro level.

by deacs on Feb 16, 2011 10:36 PM MST up reply actions  

your last sentence remains my concern

to me, balls/strikes (and therefore K/BB) is not “what a pitcher controls.” The pitcher has a LOT of control, to be sure, but not all. Thus, to me, the metric does not really “accomplish” with legitimate precision what it suggests that it does. It probably comes relatively close.

by Teekalong on Feb 16, 2011 10:46 PM MST up reply actions  

I chose "mostly" for a reason

K’s and BB’s are so much within a pitcher’s control that we make the leap of faith to assume, at least temporarily, that they are 100% under a pitcher’s control.

Leaving that assumption behind, we say “Maybe pitchers don’t fully control K’s and BB’s, but the other factors stay constant for all pitchers (over significant sample sizes.)” Now, even this assumption isn’t truly the case, but it’s close.

Like I noted above, eventually we will be able to account for umpire influence on K’s and BB’s and “well hit” rates on HR’s. Until then, the best we can do is make the general assumption that those factors don’t change much.

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 11:47 PM MST up reply actions  

I have a good grasp on what a higher FIP than ERA means...

Basically, you rely on your defense to make more outs and your defense is pretty solid (or your really lucky). I can’t quite get my head around what a higher ERA than FIP means. My initial guess is that it means you have a defense with no range at all and every non-homer hit finds a convenient gap but you don’t walk anyone and you get a ton of strikeouts. Anyone more knowledgeable please chime in.

"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle

by BittenAnkles on Feb 16, 2011 1:38 PM MST reply actions  

You have the right idea on ERA > FIP

There is a lot of play in how a pitcher can end up with an ERA higher than FIP, especially if they have a really high AVG, OBP or SLG against (or all three, then they’re really bad).

If none of those are exceptionally high, it could be a fluke year – BABIP out of proportion with career, or exceptionally poor HR/FB numbers with men on base (in that case, xFIP would be a good reference). For instance, Cliff Lee defies all of those initial criteria, but, from 2009 to ’10, had a .100 point jump in OPS with men on base.

It’s not necessary to have a ton of strikeouts and few walks to have a higher ERA; it can be the result of a mediocre K/BB ration leading to one bad inning per game. Brian Bannister comes to mind as someone who gives up a lot of hits, and is an obvious candidate as someone who does things decently in the eyes of FIP but gets hit hard and ends up allowing a lot of runs.

Other people might have more specific scenarios or pitchers who regularly demonstrate this phenomenon.

by deacs on Feb 16, 2011 2:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Bannister is ironic

Considering he is a sabrnerd who has publicly said he aims to lower his fip

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 3:02 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Its about time I actually read what those were

after reading what they were… I can understand FIP but I do not like xFIP

by waterboy31321 on Feb 16, 2011 1:58 PM MST reply actions  

It's reasonable to have qualms about xFIP

There’s something missing about regressing a below average HR/FB if the pitcher has an exceptional ground ball rate, which in turn could indicate an ability to induce weak contact on any type of batted ball (including inducing lots of lazy flies versus scorchers to the fence).

There was a lot of discussion last summer about how writers on other sites used Ubaldo’s xFIP, which might not fairly judge the type of pitcher he is, against him during his amazing first half. It’s fair of them to mention the xFIP disparity, but some of the factors in the above paragraph should be provided for perspective about the type of pitcher he is and the limitations of xFIP.

by deacs on Feb 16, 2011 2:50 PM MST up reply actions  

To be honest though

xFIP almost exactly predicted his second-half ERA.

I like xFIP, even if it says Ubaldo wasn’t as good last year.

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 3:38 PM MST up reply actions  

xFIP has its uses when handling a pitcher with more inconsistent HR/FB values

Like Rafael Betancourt. This is especially true of relievers who are by nature SSS. I definitely agree with deacs that people have made mistakes when evaluating Ubaldo. Some pitchers are just consistently good (Ubaldo) at avoiding taters. Some are consistently bad (Billy Buckner). For most though, it can be helpful. Though personally, I glean the same information by just checking FIP, HR/FB and career HR/FB rates. It’s not as simple as an xFIP leaderboard, but it avoids falling into traps like underrating Ubaldo

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 2:57 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Isn't avoiding Taters part of pitching?

I mean I would have to say you have control on where you pitch the ball and leaving the ball up and getting punished for it is your fault. So I just don’t get why you would give somebody an excuse for this.

by waterboy31321 on Feb 16, 2011 3:12 PM MST up reply actions  

yes, it is

But home runs tend to plate many runs quickly. They can really inflate or deflated ERA significantly. In small enough samples, squirrely things happen. What if Clayton Kershaw have up six home runs but twelve shots that died at the wall? Did he “control” the batter coming up 0.5% short? And then of course, home runs can be hit on good pitches now and again. If that happens a couple times in a short sample, the pitcher might not have earned the runs tagged on him per se. Or, how about when Dan Haren gave up four homers at Coors in one game last year? xFIP is really about smoothing out the bumps and quieting the noise. Most often, the fixes it adds eliminates the SSS fluky stuff, but sometimes it goes too far, as it does with Ubaldo

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 3:21 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Did he "control" the batter coming up 0.5% short? And then of course, home runs can be hit on good pitches now and again.

see: Hawpe, Brad; Schilling, Curt

by Andrew Martin on Feb 16, 2011 3:41 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree it can get fluky

but its stretching it in my opinion…I feel it is manipulating the actual facts. Maybe those 12 shots at the wall are beacuse he had a slight 1/4 inch of movement on the pitch that had the player just miss the sweet spot…something he controlled. Or maybe Dan Haren was poorly conditioned and was tired in the inning he gave up that many home runs, or his stride was shortening up causing the ball to elevate in the strike zone, something he controlled.

by waterboy31321 on Feb 17, 2011 9:32 AM MST up reply actions  

I think you're overly attributing the control a pitcher has to the pitcher

Consider
1 – A pitcher cannot have success if he does not throw strikes. Obvious.
2 – Every pitch in the strike zone (location, velocity, movement) has resulted in a hit at some point. Pretty obvious.
3 – Every pitch type/location/velocity in the strike zone has ended up as a home run at some point, because the hitter guessed right.

The pitcher can increase his odds of avoiding hits and home runs to be sure, but once the pitch is thrown, he has no control. If it is conceivable that a “pitcher’s pitch” results in a hit or home run some of the time, does it not follow that in small samples, by random chance these could be grouped together?

What I’m getting at is my biggest pet peeve with lazy commentators. Not every hit was from a bad pitch, and not every out was because of a good pitch. Pitchers just don’t control the game that much. They just pitch to the odds of getting outs more often.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 17, 2011 6:36 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Are you saying

that it’s hard to hit a round ball with a round bat square regardless of where the pitcher pitches it? And that sometimes a bad pitch (from the batter’s standpoint) can be hit squarely? Interesting.

"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK

by jrockies on Feb 17, 2011 9:11 PM MST up reply actions  

  1. 2 example Vlad Guerrero

by waterboy31321 on Feb 18, 2011 11:40 AM MST up reply actions  

Still trying to fully understand...

Could you have a FIP of 0.00 if you struck out every batter that recorded an out, never walked or hit anyone and never gave up a home run all the while giving up 20 straight non-homer hits in between the strikeouts and accumulating a sky-high ERA?

"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle

by BittenAnkles on Feb 16, 2011 2:53 PM MST reply actions  

theoretically yes

You can actually even have a negative FIP. Just plug in numbers to the FIP formula. While your scenario may seem to discredit FIP, you also have to recognize that no pitcher can have a skillset of being simultaneously unhittable (all Ks, no BBs) and completely hittable (1.000 BABIP)

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 3:01 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I tried 120K in 40IP (-3 using the formula pre-constant) and came out with .16 (due to the addition of the constant),

though, following what ATF mentioned, it’s possible to strike out more than three batters per inning (swung, missed, reached on a passed ball), so you could run up a negative FIP that way.

ERA is subject to equally bad, but highly unlikely circumstances. As mentioned in the column, due to MLB rules, a pitcher’s ERA could be zero if they get two outs, an error allowed the potential third out to reach, and then they give up six straight home runs. My understanding is that none of those runs would count against the pitcher’s ERA.

by deacs on Feb 16, 2011 3:11 PM MST up reply actions  

You don't have to strike out more than 3 per inning to have a negative FIP

FIP = ((~)13*HR+(~)3*BB-(~)2*K)/IP + (~)3.10

65K, 0 HR, 0BB in 40 IP:

FIP = (0+0-130)/40+3.10
FIP = -3.25+3.10
FIP = -.15

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 3:43 PM MST up reply actions  

Betancourt had a negative FIP one month

See August

Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.

by hjrrockies on Feb 16, 2011 3:45 PM MST up reply actions  

He quietly kicked ass last year

Hope he can keep it up.

"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle

by BittenAnkles on Feb 16, 2011 4:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Now that my curiousity is piqued...

I used Goal Seek to figure out exactly how many K’s per inning would be required to have a negative FIP given no walks or homers. To eliminate some variables, I used 60 innings pitched, which seemed like a reasonable number for a typical reliever.

Under those conditions, you would need to strike out 1.56 batters per inning to have a -0.01 FIP.

"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle

by BittenAnkles on Feb 16, 2011 4:22 PM MST up reply actions  

essentially Carlos Marmol in strikeouts

Cliff Lee in walks and Clayton Kershaw in homers. Except a level or two better for each component.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 4:36 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I like FIP for the most part,

but it seems to me that there is one other area that a pitcher has control over that has a alrge impact on their value, and that would be their LD and GB rates. No matter what defense is behind you, line drives are going to fall for hits much more often then ground balls. And, seeing as the only way a ground ball can go for an extra base hit is if its placed perfectly up the line, Line drives are much much more likely to fall for an extra base hit. Its also pretty clear that some pitchers are consistently better at getting grounders than others.
So, uh, what gives? Is there like a FIP including those stats?

by SurfaceThought on Feb 16, 2011 8:53 PM MST reply actions  

No there isn't a FIP for those stats

but it is also important to take all stats in some sort of context. If there is a really large discrepancy between FIP and ERA it is an excellent idea to go look at what kind of contact a pitcher is getting against them. It might not be going over the wall but line drives to the gaps will hurt almost as bad.

The simple answer is that no one stat gives us all the answers and a person needs to look at multiple things to get the overall picture.

"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK

by jrockies on Feb 16, 2011 9:16 PM MST up reply actions  

Actually, there is a "FIP" for those stats

It’s called SIERA, and it debuted at BPro last year.
The upside is that it takes into account batted ball types. The downside is that the formula makes the formula for FIP seem like kindergarten math:

SIERA = 6.145 – 16.986*(SO/PA) + 11.434*(BB/PA) – 1.858((GB-FB-PU)/PA) + 7.653*((SO/PA)^2) +/- 6.664*(((GB-FB-PU)/PA)^2) + 10.130*(SO/PA)/PA) – 5.195(BB/PA)*((GB-FB-PU)/PA)

Here’s the leaderboard. Rafael Betancourt led all MLB pitchers with a 1.31 SIERA.

Also interesting, James Shields had a slightly better SIERA than Ubaldo Jimenez. Weird.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Well I'm wrong

and it won’t be the last time when the topic is baseball statistics. I tend to analyze the other half of the game (visual) and keep the statistics in my head for reference or when the discussion goes that way. Thanks PF for this insight.

"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK

by jrockies on Feb 16, 2011 10:12 PM MST up reply actions  

I certainly wouldn't beat myself up over it

We don’t ever discuss SIERA here, and it’s not heavily cited outside of here either. It’s new enough that I don’t think anyone knows what to really think of it.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 10:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Jiminy Crickets

We’re gonna need a bigger post.

by deacs on Feb 16, 2011 10:38 PM MST up reply actions  

As ridiculous as that formula seems

I definitely did that type of calculation in my fluid mechanics class. It’s essentially just dimensional analysis, and I loved it.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 16, 2011 10:43 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree

That formula is nothing compared to some of the calculations I’ve done in class.

"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK

by jrockies on Feb 16, 2011 10:50 PM MST up reply actions  

drr of course

Similar idea, much wider usage

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 18, 2011 12:11 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Wow.... Just. Wow.

I read all the articles explaining this metric last night, and I’m pretty sure I failed to comprehend any of it. Maybe it will go down smoother the second time. Just looking at the leaderboards however it is hard for me to believe that it is an accurate description of a pitchers true ability. First of all I can’t understand why the top of the leaderboards is so completely dominated by relief pitchers. And among starters it leads to some interesting rankings. It says that Esmil had a better 2010 on a rate basis then Jouhlys, for example. And that Hiroki Kuroda had a better 2010 than Ubaldo (slightly).
Hmmmmm

by SurfaceThought on Feb 17, 2011 1:22 PM MST up reply actions  

On the flip side...

JDLR had an identical SIERA to CC last year, and graded out to be significantly better than clay Bucholz, for example, so I’m pretty okay with that.

by SurfaceThought on Feb 17, 2011 1:33 PM MST up reply actions  

You can filter by minimum innings pitched

Once you do that, you’ll get a top ten that would still appear debatable, but is in the ballpark. As for Kuroda being rated better than Ubaldo, pitchers can’t control how the formulas are made, but it doesn’t mean the metric is faulty. It just means the metric is built to tell you something that you don’t think accurately depicts the talent of a pitcher.

by deacs on Feb 17, 2011 4:45 PM MST up reply actions  

I take all new metrics with a grain of salt, but they generally offer something

Most outside of Colorado would object to Colorado’s high ranking in pitcher fWAR in recent seasons, but looking into the reasoning, it is sound. The more you know, the more you know you don’t know SHDTGHT. And maybe there’s something to Kuroda pitching as well as Ubaldo. Maybe not. But there’s certainly a reason it speaks so highly of Kuroda. Considering I’ve though Kuroda was underrated for some time, I’m actually sort of happy to see that ranking.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 17, 2011 6:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Kuroda is a pretty damn good pitcher

I haven’t seen enough of him to comment on whether his pitching is as fun to watch as Ubaldo, or whether his movement looks as impressive, but all of the metrics say this his pitching is at least in the neighborhood of Ubaldo, though his durability is a different issue. He might have been worth laying out some dollars for if he hadn’t re-signed so early and DLR hadn’t been re-signed to a good contract.

I think when you say take new metrics with a grain of salt, it’s the same idea as trying to figure out what they actually do before touting that Chacin has the lowest xRUBBERTREEPLANT (though I could be wrong about what you’re saying there).

by deacs on Feb 17, 2011 6:57 PM MST up reply actions  

on the money

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 18, 2011 7:38 AM MST via mobile up reply actions  

ALL the SABR stats grade out Esmil as significantly better than his ERA, fwiw

The main process is that they established ratios of parameters they expected would affect a pitcher’s ERA. They then ran empirical studies to find the coefficients and exponents that limited the error on a large scale for each of those parameters. It’s a very very common process for creating mathematical models in hundreds of fields, so it isn’t exactly a black box.

For example, during my undergrad, I helped a few grad students with their theses, which was developing an equation to predict the depth of riverbed scour (local topographical shift) as a resultant of river flow over weirs (little dams). I didn’t get my name on the paper, but it the final paper published this month. At any rate, the equations were found precisely the same way, by presuming that flow rate, weir height, weir arm angle, river depth etc. were all imperative factors, then given the same dimensional analysis as SIERA was.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 17, 2011 6:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Nice overview

Just thought I’d add a few things relating to how FIP and xFIP, or the concepts therein, get applied to projections:

1) None of the major projection systems regress either BABIP or HR/FB anything close to 100%. This in itself is evidence that there’s some degree of persistence in those statistics; we’ve all played around with how to best tweak our systems, and we get better results with, say, a 70% regression (depending on the size of the sample, of course) than a 100% regression.

2) When you go from ERA to FIP, you’re not just regressing BABIP 100%, you’re regressing situational luck 100%. A pitcher can have a league-average BABIP and a FIP much lower than his ERA if he happens to perform much better with runners on base than with the bases empty (see Roy Halladay, 2010). This is a hugely important distinction, because the differences in BABIP ability are much greater than the differences in situational ability. NEIFI completely ignores situational luck (that is, it assumes that pitchers have zero ability to control the sequencing of events against them). There might be 4-5 guys around the league for whom this is a bad assumption, but on balance, it works very well. A low BABIP is much, much more likely to be indicative of skill than a crazy situational split is.

The missing link here is component ERA (ERC), which assesses what a pitcher’s ERA should have been given normal sequencing of the hits and walks he allowed, and which differs from FIP only in that it doesn’t regress BABIP at all. Ideally, we should see the sequence ERA-ERC-FIP-xFIP, where each step removes one and only one element of luck, so that it’s easier to see exactly in what area a pitcher has been lucky or unlucky. I really don’t understand why Fangraphs doesn’t show and popularize ERC.

3) BABIP for relievers is much more persistent than for starters – in other words, 70 innings of relief tells you a lot more about a pitcher’s BABIP ability than 70 innings of starting does. This is why all the projection systems hate Matt Lindstrom.

by Heltonfan on Feb 16, 2011 9:35 PM MST reply actions  

I'm not sure than I understan what you mean by a "100%" and "70%" regression...

Actually, I’m sure I don’t understan
Are you referring to predictive ability or to r-squared values? Methinks not as even an r-squared of .7 is extremely high…

by SurfaceThought on Feb 17, 2011 1:25 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm referring to how much the sample data is regressed toward league average in making the projection

100% regression means that the sample performance in that category is completely ignored and the league average is used instead, 70% regression means that the projection is based 30% on sample performance and 30% on league average.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2011 9:10 PM MST up reply actions  

ugh

the end there should obviously read “30% on sample performance and 70% on league average”.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2011 9:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Nice job Deacs

It’s funny you linked RMN’s piece from April of 2009. I was just a lurker back then but I distinctly remember reading it because A: it was one of the first articles I ever saw on this site and B: because I was highly skeptical of this new FIP metric. There was something that just didn’t sit right with me treating a double down the line, a weak ground ball to the shortstop, a triple into the corner, a bloop over the 2Bman’s head, a popup, a shot into the gap, a line drive right at the center fielder, and an error all equally. For this reason, it took me a very long time to accept the legitamacy of FIP (and some might argue I still don’t. I’m working on it. :-))

(And this is coming from someone who loved SABER stats like OPS and WAR as soon as I discovered them. FIP just didn’t jive as well with me as some of the other stats for the reason listed above. I don’t know, maybe I’m just stubborn.)

Here’s where I’m at now…………….

I don’t look at FIP as an alternitive to ERA but instead, I see it as answering a different question. To me FIP tells us how well a pitcher pitched, while ERA tells us how effective a pitcher was a preventing runs with the hand he was dealt (the hand being the defense he had to work with, how lucky he was, ect……). I find both of these questions to be fascinating and don’t think either should be disregarded. Both FIP and ERA are tools and it’s our job as fans to know what tool is right for which job.

In a vacuum, we want to know how well a pitcher pitched; that’s where I think FIP does a better job. However, when the Rockies actually take the field, all I care about is how effective Ubaldo was at preventing runs from scoring. If he goes out and throws a no hitter with a 3.64 FIP like he did on April 17th last year, I could care less how well FIP says he pitched that day. At the same time, I still want to know what FIP has to say about Ubaldo at the end of the season and compare it to other pitchers.

My hope it that one day FIP and ERA can coexist peacefully.

43 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 17, 2011 9:34 AM MST reply actions  

Thanks!
I don’t look at FIP as an alternitive to ERA but instead, I see it as answering a different question. To me FIP tells us how well a pitcher pitched, while ERA tells us how effective a pitcher was a preventing runs with the hand he was dealt (the hand being the defense he had to work with, how lucky he was, ect……).

This is exactly the point I wanted to explicitly make, but didn’t go far enough in the “Behind ERA” section.

However, I’m not sure ERA actually “tells us how effective a pitcher was a preventing runs with the hand he was dealt” in the Ubaldo no hitter scenario. If you properly weighted runs (heavily in this scenario) and inserted them into the FIP formula, then you might get a better idea of how a pitcher pitched within a certain context.

 FIP is justified in demonstrating that while throwing the no hitter, Ubaldo wasn’t necessarily the absolute most effective at preventing runs because he still put six guys on base, which raised the likelihood that a runner could score. The “absolute most effective” no-hitter FIP (meaning base runners only reached on an error, and assuming no strikeout singles) would be, I think, -2.6. Ubaldo’s was awesome, but he still could have been more effective (if effective means preventing all scenarios in which a run could score). Every walk, HBP, etc is a degree away from “absolute most effective” using FIP.

by deacs on Feb 17, 2011 12:40 PM MST up reply actions  

If you properly weighted runs (heavily in this scenario) and inserted them into the FIP formula, then you might get a better idea of how a pitcher pitched within a certain context.

Am I missing something here? I used this formula ………. FIP = ((13*HR)(3*(BBHBP-IBB))-(2*K))/IP + 3.2 ……………. to get the FIP for Ubaldo’s no hitter and it came out like this………….((13*0)(3*(60-0))-(2*7)/IP + 3.2 = 3.64. How do I rate runs heavily? I thought FIP was just HR’s, K’s, BB’s, and HBP’s?

FIP is justified in demonstrating that while throwing the no hitter, Ubaldo wasn’t necessarily the absolute most effective at preventing runs because he still put six guys on base, which raised the likelihood that a runner could score.

This is one of the differences in FIP and ERA that fascinate me. As soon as Ubaldo walked each guy he did in his no hitter, FIP immediately penalized him for it. In contrast, ERA gave Ubaldo a chance to strand these runners on base before nailing him with a charged run. Now one thing I remember about that night was that for some reason, Ubaldo had much better control out of the stretch; so much so that he eventually just started off every inning throwing this way. In other words, Ubaldo would let a buch of guys on via walk, but then would pitch really well from the stretch after that and prevent a runs from scoring.

So when I say that FIP and ERA answer two different questions, I would argue that they both answer the question they were supposed to answer correct even thought they came up with very different answers (FIP with 3.64 and ERA with 0.00).

“How well did Ubaldo pitch?”

FIP says 3.64. I think that’s a fair number becaue he walked six guys which is actually pretty terrible. While FIP is correct to pelalize Ubaldo because he increased the likelihood that a run would score with his walks, it does not tell the rest of the story which is how good Ubaldo was at preventing those runs from scoring once he started pitching from the stretch.

How effective was Ubaldo at preventing runs with the hand he was dealt?”
At this he was pretty damn good. That night he could pitch awesome from the stretch and used that to his advantage to help him prevent runs even though he walked six guys. And of course he was also dealt a great hand; I still can’t believe Dex tracked that ball down in left center.

42 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 18, 2011 9:54 AM MST up reply actions  

I wasn’t implying that you (RIRF) rated runs heavily in your initial comment, but rather if you (generic interested party) rated runs heavily and inserted them into the FIP formula you might get something that comes closer to telling you how a pitcher performed given a certain defense, park, etc.

it does not tell the rest of the story which is how good Ubaldo was at preventing those runs from scoring once he started pitching from the stretch.

That’s a good point; similar to the idea that xFIP can’t account for the difference among pitchers in type of contact allowed/induced. If he’s going to be penalized for walking a batter, he should get part of that penalty back for each double play (there was only one in the NH game) I don’t think he should get points back for walking the leadoff man and retiring the next three batters because he never actually reduced the potential to score a run until the inning was over.

by deacs on Feb 18, 2011 10:14 AM MST up reply actions  

Ah got ya

I just wanted to make sure that there wasn’t another FIP formula that I wasn’t aware of that could give us another number for Ubaldo’s game. It’s a good idea though. Sounds like a project for BTB.

42 more days until the Rockies Home Opener!!!!!!!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Feb 18, 2011 10:32 AM MST up reply actions  

Thinking about this more

And maybe tRA takes care of your qualms with FIP by incorporating and weighting batted ball types.

tRA somewhat answers the “how did a pitcher perform in a specific team context” question by accounting for and distinguishing the potential for hits in different batted ball types, and without involving the murkiness of who is responsible for a run scoring.

by deacs on Feb 18, 2011 11:17 AM MST up reply actions  

Here's the thing

Nobody looks at ERA for a single start much like nobody looks at wOBA for a single game.

For single games, something like Bill James’ Game Score would be something to look at for starting pitchers.

by Andrew Martin on Feb 18, 2011 10:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Spring (Statistical) Training For Fans

Tutorials on the more esoteric, newfangled stats are highly constructive and much appreciated.

Geeks are, typically, egoistic enough, already.

by RocknRule on Feb 17, 2011 3:21 PM MST reply actions  

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