Mets 9, Rockies 5: Ubaldo Blues Continue, Beltran Assaults Rockies Pitching
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 6:24 PM MDT
in Rockies Game Wraps
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PrintThings still aren't connecting for the ever-frustrating Ubaldo Jimenez. Though pitching in the cold has never exactly been his strong suit, he's lost command of key pitches and struggled through 3 and two thirds innings with 3 hits and 6 walks (two of which were opposing starting pitcher Jon Niese) and allowing 5 earned runs during that time.
After a 2+ hour rain delay, the Mets got started early. as Jimenez walked third baseman Willie Harris before over-adjusting for the shaky control with a straight fastball to Carlos Beltran, who smacked it for a home run, putting the Rockies into another early deficit. Jonathan Herrera retaliated in the bottom of the inning with a solo shot (the Rockies weapon of choice as of late), his second home run of the season, both of which came against the Mets.
The next major crisis didn't arrive until the fourth inning. Left fielder Jason Bay led off the inning with a single, and though Bay stole both second and third base, Jimenez helped things along regardless by walking first baseman Daniel Murphy and second baseman Justin Turner behind him. A sacrifice fly from catcher Josh Thole brought the first run around, but it was a two run single from shortstop Jose Reyes that broke the door open. Jimenez was relieved by Clay Mortensen, who picked off Reyes as he attempted to steal second to end the inning.
Once again, the Rockies retaliated in the bottom of the inning with a solo home run, this time by Todd Helton. The score would remain the same as Mortensen and Niese pitched effectively through the next two innings. Mortensen, who is hypothetically scheduled to start four days from now against the Giants, was relieved by Franklin Morales in the seventh inning. After two quick outs, Morales lost form and matched Jimenez' first inning mistakes with another walk to Harris followed by another home run by Beltran.
The Rockies offense finally came to life in the bottom of the seventh. Jose Lopez, Jose Morales and pinch hitter Alfredo Amezaga hit three straight singles, netting the Rockies a run and knocking Niese out of the game. Seth Smith knocked in two more with a double off Mets reliever Michael O'Connor, who later walked Carlos Gonzalez (his third walk of the game), leading the way to former Rockie Taylor Buchholz. Due to the "All-Ex-Rockies-Are-Untouchable" clause, Troy Tulowitzki was only aloud to hit the ball but not let it fall for a hit; Jason Bay was positioned perfectly in deep left field to make the catch despite solid contact.
After a solid eighth inning of relief from Matt Belisle, the Rockies offense picked back up against Jason Isringhausen. Todd Helton walked after a ten pitch at bat, followed by the second hit of the game for Ryan Spilborghs. A bruised Dexter Fowler could come in to bunt the two runners over, which he did successfully, but a strikeout from Jose Morales and a flyout from pinch hitter Jason Giambi prevented any further offensive production.
The unstoppable force of Carlos Beltran put another nail in the Rockies coffin with his third two run home in in the top of the ninth off of Matt Lindstrom. Mets closer Francisco Rodriguez would finish the game in favor of New York, the Rockies eighth loss in ten games and ninth straight in Jimenez starts.
Rotten apples. We're now officially looking up at our closest competitor.
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Not nearly enough Metball today from the Mets
They played a solid game, unfortunately, and took advantage of mistakes. I almost believe they’re a real Major League team. Almost.
geez this team blows right now
but hey finally scored more than 4 runs in a game for the 1st time since….lassssst saturday? lol
LETS GO RED WINGS!
2011 will be the year....better be....
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
my bad
last wednesday we scored 6 but other than that not for the last 10sh games…sigh…get it together guys
LETS GO RED WINGS!
2011 will be the year....better be....
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on May 12, 2011 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions
The good, the not so good, and the ugly!
The good: They scored five (5) count them FIVe runs! Spilly was hitting, Lopez got a hit, and Smitty was great. Helleton was just fine, and Jonny was super. Moprtensen was pitching fine.
Good to see: Stewie on the bench most of the game. Dex was able to pinch hit. Seems like he will be back full throttle.
Not so good: Jose Morales got a hit but let two two steal get past him and tallied an error. Lindstrom allowed his first HR of the season.
Not good: Ubaldo was still in the locker room for his 3.2 innings. Just when we thought he was going to be back! Then Giambi came in to the rescue late in the game and did nothing! Do I hear DFA??
by Real Perspective on May 12, 2011 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions
So you liked them.
Chicks dig the purple jersey.
Does this signature make me look fat?
by prettyinpurple on May 12, 2011 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions
If I learned anything on opening day...
(and I didn’t) it was keep the nachos away from Holly!
"Your classless organization in your unholy city accused our Team of an unspeakable act. It was baseless, the Giants are classless, and I have no sympathy for your eternal damnation."
I hate that this team doesn't try to be great.
They get off to a great start, only to back that up with this start.
FREE CHRIS NELSON
@CentralCaliRox
usually we have a crappy April
but since we had a good one they had to make up for that in May…sigh
LETS GO RED WINGS!
2011 will be the year....better be....
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on May 12, 2011 6:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not sure we can say that don't try to be great
I think they might be trying TOO hard to be great.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yeah maybe I didn't come across as clear as I wanted to be.
But every time we get glimpses of greatness from the Rockies, we see the team follow it up by mediocre-ness. It’s just frustrating.
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@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on May 12, 2011 6:31 PM MDT up reply actions
I think its because
the team is not great. Certainly with CarGo and Uball struggling, and 3b sinkhole, this is not a very strong team. We’re not gonna win much when those guys are bad.
But we have Todd and Jonny and Seth and CDI
the rest of the rotation except for Esmil that have been doing quite well.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
but they haven't been doing "quite well"
unless you are speaking in relative-to-expectations terms (I’ll grant you that JDLR/Hammel/Chacin have been very good, but again, not killing it by overall standards). You don’t win much when your best performances are merely “pretty good” compared to the best out there. We need the stars to shine, AND we need the guys you list to play where they are now. If we want to have a great year, that is. If we want to be .500 all year, well, we’re in good shape.
That's really who I mean.
It wasn’t their fault we couldn’t score any runs. My point is that the rotation has kept us in games where we’ve failed to score more than 3 runs and often 1 or no runs. I’m having trouble faulting our rotation too much.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
This is a good point.
Don’t forget Tulo. He’s been terrible lately.
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@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on May 12, 2011 6:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes for sure
didn’t mean to suggest he’s not part of the problem, but his hot start carried us. Without him out of the gate, we’d be down with AZ and LAD or worse.
yeah also personally I am not feeling all the home run swings
I don’t mind home runs but I do mind fly outs.
by nightninja13 on May 12, 2011 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions
yeah that's a horribly worded line there
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 12, 2011 6:34 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I did make myself clearer in my next comment.
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@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on May 12, 2011 6:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Or maybe the great start was just above their heads and this stretch is below their heads
I don’t think they are a playoff team when they play like this though.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
No team is a playoff team if they play their worst all season.
Luckily, I don’t think they play like this all season.
I guess I mean from Opening Day 'till now.
Based on this season thus far, I have serious doubts about their playoff ability, and nagging doubts about their above-.500 ability.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Amen.
Chicks dig the purple jersey.
Does this signature make me look fat?
by prettyinpurple on May 13, 2011 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Rollin' till the wheels fall off...
wheels fell off.
I think the lugnuts are a tad loose right now.
but the wheels are still attached.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Was backtracking the GDT, saw your "wouldn't do AZ w/o a/c" post..
I’ve been in PHX since ’79.
I bought a bicycle for transpo two weeks in.
I started racing them ten months in.
By the third year I estimate I was logging around 13,000 miles/yr. In training.
My first car came in the seventh year.
My first car with working a/c came in the 16th year. Had to, I had a family.
All living apart now. And my apartment has a/c, but I go with fans. Cheaper.
No biggie, I still ride in the 90s. Makes 80 seem like 60. Especially with that damned fan on.
Can’t speak for everybody, but me an’ the heat are muy simpatico.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2011 6:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Yep.
Props to Atlantans.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2011 8:18 PM MDT up reply actions
gotta love the desert
"It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham." -Woody Allen
Any way you can.
Golf course sprinklers at 2 AM wouldn’t be as refreshing if it weren’t 95 degrees.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2011 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions
guess it should have just kept raining
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
sadly I think it did
this time with tears
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Okay, I think everyone needs a good laugh.
Just saw this from the Breakingnews Twitter account:
38-foot sailboat called L’Orca is crushed by breaching whale off Ore. coast; no one hurt
Tell me that isn’t hilarious.
This team needs a roster shakeup
There are too many players on this roster who serve little/no purpose. What are amezega, lopez, giambi spilly (Sorry, but its true) doing on this team? Tracy is forced to roll out the same lineup time after time because the role players literally cannot play a single game. And when they are called on they provide no relief either in spot starts or PH roles. The bench should be able to provide SOME spark but given our current makeup they provide nothing – time to call up someone(s) who can at least give the team speed off the bench, perform somewhat twice a week, etc. Sure some our key players are not performing but they are not helped by role players who have no role.
I agree with Giambi
But not the others. Amezaga has done well in his time here, and can play virtually anywhere. I don’t mind him on the team at all. Lopez makes too much money to dump and has been more of a victim of bad luck than bad play. Spilly, well, he is at least playing better now.
But Giambi, man, there is no reason to carry him on the roster other than people like him. His only job is to provide late game power. But, there is no power left in his swing. Unfortunately, the club bent over backwards to get him a roster spot when he decided to return, giving up an outfielder on the roster. To me, it reeks of entitlement. He never needed to earn his roster spot, and I fear he will continue to hang around despite very poor results.
Disagree about Lopez
This is what he did last year in Seattle too. He’s a very predictable hitter. In other words, get the ball in a certain location, he’ll hit it, very predictably, a certain way. He’s therefore very easy to position the defense against and doesn’t hit it hard enough to get hits anyway. He’s a zero, and will likely be out of baseball by the end of 2012.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 6:59 PM MDT up reply actions
yea, he is garbage
despite Rox Girl telling us all offseason about how good he was going to be.
Maybe they're confused as to what their role is.
I know I am.
What is a “role player”, anyway?
Do they have a part to play at the plate outside of a. Hitting or b. Judiciously NOT hitting?
Hit the ball. Run like hell.
Throw the ball. Catch the ball.
That some do this better than others, or sometimes everyone has difficulty doing that doesn’t mean that attempting to redefine the basics will make the basics any easier to perform.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2011 7:06 PM MDT up reply actions
I feel like this team gives wins away more than they get beaten. Besides CDI, Chacin and JDLR, and Street, no one can seem to perform when its needed.
What may be a big issue is the people who are suppose to be the team leaders are falling flat on thier face. I mean Troy is a pretty tense guy, I would guess his mood is like a cloud in the locker room.
After a reviewing this, my list of "performing" players is a bit short and missing some key relievers,
but I think my point is made….
by CORockFaithful on May 12, 2011 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions
In a week
When I’m out of SF, Rockies losses will be muchhhh easier to swallow. As of right now… ugh.
The only thing keeping me happy is knowing that SF is going to crash and going to crash hard soon. All those 1-win victories are going to bite them in the rear end soon (like it did us from May) and on the opposite end of the spectrum our bats are not going to stay this ice cold forever.
We didn’t have a great pitching game today either though so didn’t really deserve to win this one. I do wish we had managed to pull together 5 runs in any of the past five games though…
Dunno about SF
Teams can sometimes run off crazy one-run records by having a piss-poor offense but a great bullpen. SF is pretty much the perfect case (last year’s SD team too). Dodgers used to do this as well, a few years ago (particularly against us).
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:01 PM MDT up reply actions
This.
They have great pitching. I wouldn’t rely on a “crash and burn” for the Rockies to take the division.
FREE CHRIS NELSON
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on May 12, 2011 7:04 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm a firm believer in luck
And there is simply no way it’s lasting an entire season (longer if you count last fall’s series run).
All a team like that need is oneeee little funk to come along and the wheels come off. Look at the Rockies lately.
The only thing that’ll help SF is if they take a massive massive lead before it happens.
I'm all for testing that theory.
There’s sputtering there as well.
I get nervous when anyone not named LinceVogelCain pitches and LopeMotilson relieves.
And when was the full offensive complement together?
First Ross is out. Then Torres. Then Sandoval is out for two months.
Ross comes back, then Torres. Now Posey’s questionable.
IMHO it’s extremely fortunate for the league that Sandoval is out. He was looking pretty dialed in.
Rowand and Burrell are at 31 Ks apiece.
Rowand strikes out 25% of his PAs, Burrell 33%
And yeah, a shi – er, a boatload of luck.
But not completely.
While it’s true they can’t buy their way on base 2nd to last in league OBP
or knock in what isn’t there 4th from bottom in OPS (COL 5th)
true to form the pitching has made up for it. #1 in league SO, league lowest H/9, #2 in HR/9
Those aren’t door prizes.
Still a lot of ball to be played.
And though the Giants have managed by fair means and foul to get off the piss – sticky floor of the division
and up to the penthouse I, for one, am not about to get all
about it.
Not after witnessing this cautionary tale.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2011 7:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Are these stats?
Where did you get these? You should wash your hands after picking something like this off of the floor.
Baseball Reference. Is that not a legitimate source?
Please, enlighten me.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 13, 2011 2:34 AM MDT up reply actions
I think the Gints are legit
They’ve proved over the last 190+ games that they are simply a better team.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Hoo boy, we're in big trouble
But I think we have some choices, and the franchise is at a bit of a turning point. One of the things that divide some management teams from others is their willingness to reach conclusions based on some, a lot, or unarguable evidence. Some teams panic and move based on too little info. We, on the other hand, tend toward the opposite, holding onto guys until no one wants them. We’re now at the “a lot” point with a bunch of guys, some of them homegrown. Whether the FO and ownership is willing to eat some medium-sized contracts, act unsentimentally, take some risks, and accept value-for-value trades instead of constantly bottom-feeding, probably determines how the rest of this season goes.
I see several guys who have anywhere from days to weeks to go before they’re gone — or should be. Some of these may be surprising, but I think ownership has invested too much in Cargo and Tulo to not do a modified “all in” for the next few years.
Giambi: Days. Unless he comes up with a big hit or two weekend, he’s gone by Sunday.
Paulino: One more outing. If it’s not lights out, he’s gone as soon as either Rogers or Cook comes back, cuz Mortensen is up to stay.
Lopez: A week or two. He’s got DFA written all over him. And yes, I know how much that will cost us.
Tracy: Yes, Tracy. The idea of bringing in a no-nonsense hardass baseball man to change the culture around here is one of the best of the (admittedly) bad options I came up with. A guy who can say, if you don’t change your 2-strike approach (for example) you don’t play (unless your name is Tulo or Cargo). I figure end of May is about it for Trace.
Spilly: Roughly the Hawpe timetable and roughly the same fate. He’s a fringe player right now.
Stewart: We’ll give him all year, but he won’t be back if he doesn’t figure it out.
As far as minor league guys go, I don’t think Blackmon has anything to prove. Bring him us, see if he hits, and if he does dangle Fowler and a prospect for a real third baseman. We could try Fields as a bench guy too. Give Amezaga a chance at 3B in the meantime. Dude isn’t a great hitter but he’s the antithesis to our typical approach: a gritty, slappy, hard ground ball-hitting guy who can be aggressive. And for goodness sake, give Nelson a chance. He’s got nothing more to prove, and if nothing else if he hits at the ML level he could be part of a trade too.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:15 PM MDT reply actions
I basically agree about Giambi + Paulino
But really don’t understand the idea of firing Tracy in 2 weeks. We’ve been in first place pretty much until today and are now 1 GB, and all with our superstars going through huge slumps.
It's totally not fair
Somewhat like life. But to change the vibe on a team, you sometimes need to change the tone coming from up top. Clint Hurdle wasn’t a bad manager, either, and our bad start in 2009 wasn’t really his fault (which we’re finding out again this year).
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Well you are right about one thing
Clint Hurdle wasn’t a bad manager….. he was worse then bad.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Nope
He was (and is) quite good, just very very different than JIm Tracy. He’s the clear frontrunner for NL Manager of the Year so far, I think.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:30 PM MDT up reply actions
right
who could for get the let the pitcher bat in the the bottom of the 6th, only to put a reliever in at the top of the 7th… managing genius right there.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Tracy is getting murdered by Keith Law..
all week on the Baseball Today podcast. For his poor decisionmaking.
Law was ranting about Ron Washington's misuse of Neftali Feliz a couple of weeks back
anything similar?
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Clint
is a great rah rah guy. Might be perfect for the Bucs to get close to .500. Despite the miracle run in 07 I am not convinced he is a guy who can take you over the top.
How do you explain 07
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Alan Cockrell!
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2011 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions
magic
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:24 PM MDT up reply actions
joe maddon disagrees
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
I tend to think that the positive effect a manager can have on a team is near negligible but the negative effect can be noticeably detrimental.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Why do you think this?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I'd guess because a bad clubhouse can kill a team (i.e. make good players struggle more)
But a good clubhouse can’t turn scrubs into solid players or solid players into stars.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
see new york yankees, subsection 'joe torre'
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
The manager's job is to position the team in such a way that they have the best chance of winning the game for him.
A very large amount of the operation of any given game is already determined simply by regular operations and common sense that isn’t even given a second thought by anyone, let alone just the manager. He’s just there as an officiator to try and guide the players and their playing time in a way that benefits the team, and to create an environment where the team is free to flourish in their talent.
Think of it this way: a manager putting his best lineup out there isn’t going to be a sure winner, but a manager throwing the worst lineups out there is likely going to be a loser. There are a lot of factors that can lead to a team losing, but it’s essentially entirely on the players to win. The best the manager can do is set the team up so that it has the best chance. He can’t win the game for them, but he can lose it for them.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I think it mirrors real life too
A good Boss with a good staff gets things done, and everyone is productive.
A bad boss with a good staff causes a ton of issues, people don’t work as hard for the bad boss, people quit, leave, whatever.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Taking it a step further, working under a good boss doesn't likely make you a better worker beyond giving you, yourself, the opportunity to become that better worker....
… whereas working under a bad boss, even at your best, would still likely be detrimental to your productivity because your ceiling would be lowered.
I didn’t play many sports in my life, but I can certainly tell you that from my limited experience, I didn’t play better because of my best coaches, but I definitely did play worse because of my worst coaches. That’s not to say the good ones weren’t helpful, just that the good ones inspired me to play better rather than played me better themselves.
In summary, there are plenty of positive things a manager can contribute to a baseball team, but they’re not going to guarantee you any better play.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions
How does one explain Ozzie Guillen?
Good bad manager. Or bad good manager?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I don't know enough about Ozzie Guillen to even pretend to answer that question with any sort of authority...
… but the answer could very easily be sometimes one or the other. Plus, different managers work better with different players, go through periods of success and failure, etc.
I can tell you that my personality, personally, would respond a LOT better to Tracy’s managerial style than Hurdle’s. That’s not going to be the same for everybody.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Interesting. Thanks!
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Hurdle's a good developmental manager
Teaches minor leaguers how to be major leaguers. But when there’s expectations beyond that, like winning? Not your guy.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Excellent point
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Precisely.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Before we DFA Giambi..
Let’s remember last year he started off really cold before getting better. In April last year he posted a .561 OPS in 26 PA. This April he was .652 in 22 PA. Last May he received 41 PA and smacked a .881 OPS with 2 HRs.
Before we DFA Giambi
we need to remember that a fair number of teams in the AL would grab him to fill a DH role or a bench bat.
Also, I agree with your comment. That was just the first thing that popped into my head when I read that comment.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Giambi has been shopping himself
To AL teams since Oakland let him go in 2009, and there has never been a single taker. He was a luxury that fit nicely onto the 40-man roster in late 2009. But he can’t be shoehorned effectively into a 25-man NL roster. If the Rockies let him go, he’s spent his last day in the majors.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 8:40 PM MDT up reply actions
I respectfully disagree
but you may be right as well.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Agree with some
of your points. Particularly how the team tends to overvalue our guys for far too long. I stated earlier in the week that I would like to see Blackmon play right with Smith sliding to the Giambi role and Giambi hitting the old folks home. Immediately people came to the defense of Smith. Now I know Smith is a decent player but honestly after a few years there seems to be a definite ceiling of .285 25 90 written all over him. And thats a ceiling – the actual results might wind up closer to last year.
Disagree with Amezega – we can’t have zero pop out of Dex, Jonny, and 3B and quite frankly Amezega is a 25th man or AAA injury insurance on a good team. Wiggy isan ok stop gap at 3B.
Disagree on Tracey as well – I don’t like him but he is going to be the skipper for 2011 unless the team completely collapses which is not likely with CHacin, Hammel, and DLR throwing well.
...
One, his name is Tracy, not Tracey…. I understand mis-spelling harder words like “baseball” and “cat” but get the guys name right.
Two.. Smith has done nothing to make us not want to start him right now, and if .285/25/90 (and why are we still using RBI’s????) is his ceiling, then he is a fine player and should be starting everyday. I’m a huge Blackman fan, but he hasn’t proven anything yet, while Smith has proven to be a useful player.
Two.. Smith has done nothing to make us not want to start him right now, and if .285/25/90 (and why are we still using RBI’s????) is his ceiling, then he is a fine player and should be starting everyday. I’m a huge Blackman fan, but he hasn’t proven anything yet, while Smith has proven to be a useful player.Agree with Amezega, he adds nothing.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I'm more impressed Amazega is spelled right.
..oh and is there a third point to your two part discussion?
You mean Amezaga
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
You have one one and two twos
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
we want a third point.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Okay.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I figured that was going to be your point
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
well then why did you have to ask?
You know how much thought and work I put into typing that?
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
More than the word "cat" or "baseball"?
I can’t read minds you know.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Smith
is a fine player but certainly not a great one and I doubt he ever becomes an elite player. You actually made my point for me. He would be the perfect example of a guy we should sell high on. I doubt he ever matches Hawpes best offensive years.
I like using RBI because I am an old timer and somebody still needs to knock guys home. Can see your point that they are often a byproduct of good OBP by guys in front of you but sorry they just are not irrelevant to me.
I doubt Blackmon ever becomes an elite player
Besides, Hawpe was so bad defensively.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
...
One, his name is Blackmon, not Blackman…. I understand railing people for misspelling harder names like Tracey, but get the guy’s name right…..
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Smith in the Giambi role? The guy who has arguably been our best outfielder?
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
probably means spilly...
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
Again
He is the perfect example of a guy we as a community are badly overrating. He is a good player but hardly an elite one. A nice complementary piece but not a centerpiece. He is only our best outfielder because Cargo can’t get his head out of his arse. I would still stick with Dex’s upside over Smiths (though I am far from sold on Dex). I don’t know what Blackmon can do but I pretty much think I have Smith’s ceiling figured out and he is going to be cut loose as soon as he gets into the 2nd and 3rd year of arbitration because quite frankly he is never going to be a $6 or $7 Million/year player.
Again I like Smith but honestly believe that Blackmon will provide similar production (and within a year or two) at a considerably smaller salary.
We're not going to get elite players at every position.
It’s perfectly acceptable to have a good or very good player at some positions. You could very well be right about Smith & Blackmon a year or two from now, but I don’t see why would stick Smith on the bench now.
SF Giants agree with this statement.
They’re elite players are starting pitchers, and Pablo Sandoval.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
oh and the closer
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Which one?
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
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Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 13, 2011 2:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Smith > Fower
Less K’s, more power, equal on base ability (as far as I believe). Speed is overrated, and Smith is an underrated defender.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
right now yes
but who has more upside?
I think both of them will be gone when they get too pricey as they appear to be (at best) complementary pieces.
Doubt this will happen this way
The Rox management seems to not like trades very much. I mean, the ones that end up meaning something. They are rather cautious about it anyway. And you run the risk of spending money and not achieving much of an impact. If you trade Lopez, do you just get anotherr Lopez?
I do not like the idea of givng up Fowler. He is the type of play the team needs, young, and improving each year. And Spilly still has some punch left in him. Keep Amezaga as well.
Well, we all know what nees to happen with Stewie, Paulino, Giambi and etc. But will management have the guts to do it?
I don’t think we can hang this all on Trcay. I think the guys in the BO are holdoing back on making any sweeping changes for some reason. I think if it was up to Trace he would move!
by Real Perspective on May 12, 2011 7:30 PM MDT up reply actions
All of that is exactly right
And is exactly the problem. We don’t want to trade Lopez for another Lopez. That’s what we always do. And Fowler IS good, and IS improving, which is exactly why another team might want to give up a really good 3B for him. And then you have to calculate, Fowler + a steaming mess at 3B, versus Blackmon and a good 3B we get in a trade. That’s how you get better once you’re already pretty good. It’s the only way, short of overpaiyng in free agency.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions
You are right
But the guys calling the shots won’t have the guts to try anything at all risky. They are ringing their hands and are too worried about making a mistake than to run the risk of actually DOING something!
by Real Perspective on May 12, 2011 7:36 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think it's whether they have the guts or not
it’s just not the team FO philosophy to pull off monster trades during the season and certainly not this early. There are just not going to be any AL East blockbuster type deals—they can’t afford to blow money (supposedly) and throw prospects around like that.
Previous Rox management (and even O’Dowd at one point) would have cut ties with the lead balloon aging veteran type in the first couple of months if it wasn’t working out (Dale Murphy, Steve Finley etc). I suspect Giambi would be the same BUT he’s buds with big names on the team (Todd and Tulo). I think they should take him off the roster and he can be a travelling coach/mentor guy (only half joking). Spilly has a bit more left in the tank but he’s sadly starting to fit into that category as well.
Paulino is a reclamation project they aren’t quite willing to give up on yet.
I think FO is afraid if they cut Frankie he’ll be picked up by a rival and come back to bite them.
Lopez will be around until at least July beause the FO pursued him and acquired his salary…oh and since 3B is a black hole all around right now.
Despite the public scolding Stewie isn’t going anywhere right now — earliest move would be in the offseason.
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
but I may be wrong
I may be crazy…you never know. :)
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
As said early in the week
Giambi being dropped would wake the clubhouse up. Maybe work the same as canning the manager. It would be the obvious first move to make.
I have never liked Stewart but honestly I would rather see Lopez dropped than him. I suspect Ian will be off to the springs as soon as Wiggy is activated. Stewart needs a fresh start because he is clearly in the doghouse – to be singled out when there are about 6 or 7 guys that could be called out is not a confidence booster. Honestly see if Clint wants him in Pitt and see if you could get anything for him.
stew has been in Tracy's doghouse since 2009
when he played Atkins in the playoffs when Stew would have been the better choice (IMO). Obviously there’s something about Stew that rubs Jim the wrong way.
Spilly to a certain extent has also been in the doghouse w/Jim since the beginning; I’ve heard him say numerous times to reporters… “there’s the Spilborghs I’ve been told about but I just haven’t seen.” Not a ringing endorsement.
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
Wait, when did Jim say that?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
about Spilly?
He’s said it off and on in post game wraps the last couple of years —haven’t heard him say it this year (yet).
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
Hmm. That's a new one for me. Disappointing.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I shouldn't have said numerous times
I should have said several but enough times for my tired old brain to remember. :)
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
god i miss atkins
my favorite gen-R position player
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
You can't suggest including Fowler in a trade for a 3B without suggesting what 3B might realistically be available.
From all I’ve heard, the 3B market is not good this season.
Well, there are 30 some odd ones that are better than what we got
You don’t think the Mets would at least think twice about Fowler + Friedrich/Pacheco type + Lopez (to help with $$) for Wright?
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 8:52 PM MDT up reply actions
30 some odd ones, how many actually realistically available?
If Wright is the only one, I highly doubt it happens, especially if other teams are in the market.
And I still don’t agree with trading Fowler, anyway.
See, now, not to pick on anyone in particular, but ...
Isn’t that the exact problem, assuming the FO basically agrees with you?
“I don’t agree with trading Fowler,” think about what that means. He’s a very fine player, no one arguing that. Great defensively and a pretty good OBP guy. No power, but hey, nobody said he was a superstar. But how can you think like that when you don’t even know whom we might get in return.
Would you trade Fowler straight up for Wright (not that it’s going to happen)? A guy who finished top 5 in the MVP last year and is only 3 years older than Dex? How about Kevin Youkilis?
See my point? I do think the FO thinks like that. We have a guy we “raised,” who’s turned out to be good, so, ipso facto, he can’t be traded. That’s quite a self-defeating paradigm.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 9:06 PM MDT up reply actions
I can somewhat agree with this
and it shows when we refused to trade guys like Atkins, Hawpe, and Cook, and instead let them crash and burn until their value was null.
I’d like to keep Fowler around, but with Blackmon and Wheeler behind him, if someone wants to offer us a shiny new 3b for him, I’d say go for it.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I'd like to interject a question.
Were there any serious trade partners for above mentioned players?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
It's hard to call it an experiment at this point
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions
At some point the cost to get Wright becomes too much.
Does anyone really think the Mets are going to be willing to eat a ton of salary without asking for a king’s ransom? Or that they’d even be willing to trade him this early?
Also, I wouldn’t really lump Cook in with Atkins & Hawpe. His problems have been largely injury-related.
That's why I said largely.
And you can’t trade a guy when he’s injured.
But really, Cook was always slotted in as part of the rotation. There aren’t really obviously better options, and they like to have depth (as we’ve already seen has been necessary this year). Some people wanted to trade Cook and slot Rogers into the rotation full time. Now people want to get rid of Rogers. I’m personally glad we haven’t traded Cook. I still think he can be a good piece this season.
Not sure if he can or not
but I’m willing to find out and see, my hopes aren’t high on him though. However, we basically need him to be a 5th starter, and I think he can pitch that well and maybe beyond that.
This is nothing like 2006-2007 when he had to be an Ace
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I agree
And I am trying to make the same point in the thread above with Smith. We have got to stop overvaluing our assets – kind of like the stock market – you have to sell when high. Unfortunately the Rox are like the traditional investor and they wait for an asset to decline and sell or dump when low.
Frankly, the Rockies cost themselves wins by underrating Smith in 2009
And they have cost themselves wins this year by overrating Lopez’ 2009 and Wigginton’s “power.”
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I would truly love to see what magical 3B is available for Fowler
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Well Lets take a look shall we
Placido Polanco – nope
Alex Rodriguez – nope
Adrian Beltre – nope
Jack Hannahan – maybe if the Indians were playing like crap….. but nope
Kevin Youkilis – nope
Chase Headley – going with nope
Casey McGehee – nope
Chipper Jones – nope
Wilson Betemit – Possible, but I for one would be pissed if we traded Fowler for Betemit
Aramis Ramirez – See Wilson Betemit
David Wright – not for Fowler
Juan Uribe – See Wilson Betemit
Alberto Callaspo – See Wilson Betemit
Chone Figgins – Not for Fowler, but for K. Bartee maybe…
Danny Valencia – See Wilson Betemit
Brandon Inge – Possible, but oh wait what? He hits like crap?
Pedro Alvarez – nope
Miguel Tejada – see Wilson Betemit
Mark Reynolds – No better then Stewie
Chris Johnson – who?
I think you all get the point.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Here's the thing
This team went into spring training with the 25 man roster virtually set. Lopez and Paulino did nothing all spring but “made” the team. Giambi was given a spot (and I know some will disagree) after wasting a roster spot all of last year. There just might have been a sense of complacency with the team. I for one like to see the best men in spring training come north (at least to a point). No way Daley (or even Brothers) should have went to AAA while Frankie Mo and Paulino came north. Yes they played well this spring but how much of that was the Blackmons and the 1B kid on Tulsa.
Then they came North and rode Tulo and Herrera’s absurd starts as well as an obscene start by the core bullpen guys. This masked the other defeciencies.
Excellent post
I realize factors such as lack of options and friendships… er, I mean… CLUBHOUSE PRESENCE – yeah, that’s it – have to be taken into consideration. But they shouldn’t override performance and USEFULNESS. In this case, it sure seems that they did.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 8:46 PM MDT up reply actions
WALKED THE PITCHER TWO TIMES!!!!
Halladay walked a pitcher for the first time in his major league career this week. I love Alan Johnson, but we should’ve pulled the trigger on that trade.
by Charlie77 on May 12, 2011 7:24 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
To be fair
Halladay’s only had a year and a month to do it … but your point stands. It suggets Baldo has a mental issue as well as a mechanical one.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions
He is really screwed up right now
Not good at all. I’ve never been sold on Dac dspite the resurrection of DLR, Hammel, and Belisle. He allowed Morales to disintegrate and Ubaldo seems to be getting closer and closer to Steve Blass disease every time out.
Wonder wonder why?
Not sure Baldo really has a disease, just a lack of strength and a shattered confidence.
Wonder what the fix is, and if Management has the guts to do something about it?
by Real Perspective on May 12, 2011 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought we were putting this leukemia "joke" to bed.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
not really
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Could the problem be game 162 last year?
Trying for win #20 in a meaningless game may have pushed him over the edge.
I have a hard time believing that a start
8 months ago is effecting him somehow.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I thought it was funny
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Steve Blass disease
not a real disease – just something that has reared its head from time to time. Its when a pitcher loses complete command of the strike zone. Rick Ankiel got it worse than Ubaldo and had to be moved to OF not saying Ubaldo won’t turn it around but his control was scary bad today.
yep like having the yips as an infielder
I call it the Chuckie Knoblauch disease.
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
Macky Sasser Disease
is the one I liked. Got to watch the poor guy (catcher) be unable to throw the ball back to the pitcher. And he had a gun back there to boot. Saltamaccia had it last year as well.
Although Harry has
only been in the NL 3 out of 14 seasons
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Here’s to hoping we will find our groove…soon. Preferably tomorrow.
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This is certainly right, but ...
The team as constructed is prone to these kinds of periods, and real championship teams rarely have them.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 7:28 PM MDT up reply actions
The Giants had a stretch last year
that included losses to the Astros, Dodgers, Rockies, and Blue Jays. They won 4 out of 16 games in that stretch.
We can debate about whether or not the Giants were a “real” championship team, but even with that stretch they were still holding the trophy at the end of the year.
It’s a funny sport, this baseball.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
by oo_nrb on May 12, 2011 8:06 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
True but the Giants were kind of a fluke last year.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 8:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, yes
but in baseball, everyone loses at some point. Usually a lot. A team (basically) get 60 wins and 60 losses in a season, and then has to just win 30 of the other 42 to make the playoffs. Unfortunately for fans, sometimes some of those 60 losses get strung together and they hurt like hell :(
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Can we stop pretending that the Giants were a fluke?
I hate them as much as everyone on here (to the point where I think I was almost banned once), but they are a very good team. They have great Pitchers, a great Bullpen, they had decent hitting, and they won the W.S. fair and square.
By saying they were a fluke every other time we get a chance to, it makes us all seem like uniformed, bitter, homers.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
That was before the Giants
Took a hard look at their lineup and roster and purged them of a lot of dead wood.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions
To play a bit of a devil's advocate here,
I defy you to find me someone in baseball that would’ve looked at Pat Burrell and said, “oh yeah, that guy will definitely OPS over .800 at AT&T Park”, or someone that would’ve said, “Sure, Cody Ross can hit near .300” for the rest of the season.
They made a couple of moves that panned out. The Rockies took a similar gamble on Jose Lopez this year and so far it hasn’t panned out.
You win some, you lose some.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Sure they got lucky on several of their moves
But the point is they made some hard choices, instead of clinging forever to guys who weren’t performing or who were 75 pounds overweight (one of which they traded, the other they benched). Drastic roster moves aren’t something a team should make a habit of, but they can’t always be avoided.
And just for the record I thought Burrell was completely washed up but would have grabbed Cody Ross in a heartbeat. Always thought he was a solid player who was undervalued because of his smallish size and his oddball “Bats R, Throws L” profile.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 9:20 PM MDT up reply actions
You won't get an argument out of me
as far as the Rockies holding on to players for too long (see: Hawpe, Brad), and the team probably will go out and upgrade. Our upgrades in 09 worked out beautifully (and in the case of Betancourt, are still paying dividends), while our upgrades in 10 were rough.
The team will make those moves, but May 12th isn’t the time to make them. No team in baseball will want to trade right now, because all the teams are still evaluating their initial group of talent and trying to improve internally. All the teams still have a shot at the pennant, and so they’ll all continue to play their cards close to their chest. Once we hit mid-June, then the Rockies may start looking to make some trades or FA signings.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Oh I agree that trades are not an immediate option
But some fairly obvious roster moves – which have been discussed at some length here – need to be made. That would give the Rockies a few weeks to evaluate what they really need, and whether they might get some of that help from within the system.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions
It seems like a lot of the problem
Is that we have square holes in Denver and round pegs in AAA Colorado Springs.
Daley for Paulino is the only one that makes any sense right now.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I could see a Blackmon
for Spilly Swap Making some since…..
yes I get the RH vs. LH thing, but I don’t think Blackmon is any worse at hitting LHP then Spilly is at this point.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I can see that logic
but I think Blackmon eventually takes a Spilly/Smith spot in the outfield anyways…. in that he doesn’t have enough athleticism to play CF, but not enough power for the Corners…. so he becomes a totally awesome 4th outfielder.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
That may be how he has to eventually work his way into the fold, though.
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Sure, but I can understand wanting to give him more regular at bats in AAA
before going that direction. It’s still early in the season.
Yeah, I'm not advocating it either.
Especially since Spilborghs is another one of the struggling players so far in the fringe that he’s hardly responsible for our struggles. Just makes him a worse pinch hitting option than you;d like, really. If he were a starter, it’d be a different story.
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions
And any useful player for Giambi
And I still think sink or swim time is coming soon on Frankie Mo. He’s shown some improvement, but I still feel like this is an overworked pen with 1.5 lefties in it.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 9:53 PM MDT up reply actions
eh
I’m not ready to blame the state of this team on Frankie though. He’s been good this year… has he put it all together yet? no (crap I sound like Jim Tracy there) but he’s been effective.
To be honest, our pitching is fine, starters and bullpen alike.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I'm not saying Morales has been awful
Or that he’s to blame for any of this skid. Just saying that the staff needs to take off the training wheels and give him a chance to earn their confidence, or move on with someone else. A bullpen that gets leaned on this hard needs more than one lefty that can be used in meaningful situations. Especially when that one guy is basically a rookie and we don’t even know how well he can weather a full MLB season.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Unfortunately he passed sink or swim a season or two ago
and sank, and we’re still anchored to him.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
and yet here he is swimming
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions
it's TS for him
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Seriously
find me one piece of evidence that Morales has been an awful player this year?
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
He's been decent this year
but I feel the Rockies needed to have cut ties with him long ago for the overall health of their bullpen. The ball today that Beltran drove out of the park couldn’t have been any more center-cut and left over the plate (note: I realize that using Beltran’s AB’s today are kind of a moot point, cause the dude was hitting everything, but I’ll still stand by my overall point).
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
At this point we're just cherry-picking examples
Time to end the discussion, I think.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Beltran's AB today
was up in the zone at about 96. I don’t actually have a problem with that HR because of the other pitches Beltran had to foul off to get to hit the one he did. Good at bat.
/this doesn’t mean I can’t blame Franklin for walking Harris right before Beltran.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
You want evidence of Morales' awfulness?
5/7/2011 F. Morales
Wild Pitch; Rowand to 3B; Sanchez to 2B
Flyball: RF/Sacrifice Fly (Deep CF-RF); Rowand Scores
Wild pitch leads baserunner to get to 3B and then allows a sacrifice fly to lose the game. Fortunately for him, Paulino was saddled with the loss.
5/12/2011 F. Morales
Carlos Beltran homered (Fliner (Fly)). Willie Harris scored.
The Mets only had 5 runs before that pitch. The Rockies ended with 5 runs.
You can cherry pick all you want
But that doesn’t change the fact that Morales hasn’t been too bad this year.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Would you prefer harder stats, instead of actual plays?
Men in Scoring position: 8.09 FIP
Men on Base: 4.71 FIP
High Leverage: 5.20 FIP
Vs Lefties: 5.76 FIP (He’s supposed to be a lefty specialist)
Vs Lefties: .848 OPS
How about you post his good stats, too?
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by Andrew Martin on May 13, 2011 12:09 AM MDT up reply actions
Morales hasn't been nearly important enough of a player at any point short of his time as closer this time last year...
… to let the team sink or swim with him. He’s been an easy scapegoat because his issues are predictable and overt, making his continued presence on the team seem confounding until you step back and remember how much potential he had.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions
And this makes me cry a little inside
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
True
I know I tend to jump on Morales too easily. I think it’s the combination of falling short of the lofty expectations after 07 and him always seeming to be in the game at the wrong times.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
I'm not scapegoating Morales at all
But the lefty-reliever-in-training is just not a spot this roster can afford anymore. For me this isn’t about what’s happened to date, but rather what the teams need to contend the rest of the season.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 10:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not going to argue that his roster spot in favor of someone who performs better would not be a problem.
But I think the training wheels are off. I think by this point, the team gave him the C-quality bike and said “that’s yours, go ride”. Just because they didn’t give him an awesome bike to ride doesn’t mean he’s still got the wheels on.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Maybe they need to remedial train him with a big wheel
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He's never used
When the Rockies are trying to hold a lead. And barring a change in the staff’s view of him, he’s not going to be. That’s the same scenario that caused Beimel’s arm to fall off last year – a problem that would have been even worse if Reynolds hadn’t come along.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
He's the second-to-last guy in the pen
How many teams have even 3 guys who are “trustworthy” with a lead?
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
But he's the #2 lefty
And that’s the whole point. How many meaningful innings did Reynolds throw in Aug and Sept last year as the #2 lefty? Now that he’s the #1, who fills those innings? Probably not our starters – who are good, but not really inning-eaters.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 10:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I appreciate the ability to counter both sides of the plate
But we don’t have a pen that features high platoon-split pitchers. Street, Betancourt, Lindstrom, and Belisle have always had success vs. LHH in addition to domination vs. RHH. Matt Reynolds, thus far, has been great versus both sides. Really only Morales and Paulino have shown major platoon splits ever.
Point is, if Tracy STOPS abusing matchups and trusts pitchers for full innings rather than 1 or 2 hitters, the number of times we would have to see #2 Lefty Morales would drop drastically.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Well my guess is Tracy isn't going anywhere
And the starters aren’t suddenly going to begin throwing 8 and 9 innings per night. So, the Rockies need to have a bullpen that has a full complement of useful players. Not stars – nobody has that – but useful players. If Morales can be one, fine. If he can’t, he needs to go.
by Northsider1964 on May 13, 2011 4:44 AM MDT up reply actions
Roster moves yes
Daley should’ve been in Denver a while ago.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
Amen.
Chicks dig the purple jersey.
Does this signature make me look fat?
by prettyinpurple on May 13, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
If there's anything I've learned from being a Rockies fan...
well, yeah, it sucks to be prone to these streaks. I know- we shouldn’t be having one because we’re “better than this”, yada yada.
And I kinda hate it that people think we’re such a streaky team. But history, right? I don’t think we’ll go on a HUGE mongo streak; we don’t even have to. But we will start going through a better streak. Early April was not the showcase of the best we can play when we’re hot.
Yeah, there’s problems. We gotta find our way through them. We will.
Chicks dig the purple jersey.
Does this signature make me look fat?
by prettyinpurple on May 13, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Wise words
Are you saying that as bad as this team is playing right now, that if we had been told back in February that this team would be 19-15 at this point we would be ecstatic?
by Charlie77 on May 12, 2011 7:49 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Point. You have it.
But I still feel like banging my head against a wall for a while.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
Eh it's probably the sign of a crappy team if
they’re 4 games over .500 and the fanbase is ecstatic. I’ll reserve the elation for when we’re 4 games over the 2nd place divisional rival…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Like were were a couple weeks ago?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Whatever the manager does is wrong, unless it works. Then he's a button pusher.
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
"I made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes" - Bill James (Simpsons version)
"Everyone study two out situations, count management, and I'll be back with some gluten free crackers"
by Junction Rox on May 13, 2011 12:50 AM MDT up reply actions
bingo!
We’ll get there again. But this stretch is fuglyyyy
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Ecstatic?
No. Satisfied? Maybe, compared to our history of awful Aprils.
But we shouldn’t have to be. We know how good this team can be.
So our awesome start nearly evened out. Nearly. And we weren’t even blowing everyone out. Just scraping by. Now, we can’t scrape enough. It’s even.
So now it’s time to play to our full potential.
Chicks dig the purple jersey.
Does this signature make me look fat?
by prettyinpurple on May 13, 2011 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions
I am graduating
from a Division II school tomorrow that has a baseball team. I went to games for 5 years and I’m tired of yelling strikes at the pitchers (especially since I know them). I’m getting annoyed yelling the same thing to my favorite MLB team.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
this is about right
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Now that is funny
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Ubaldo
Hard to fix something when you don’t know what is wrong. I’m sure he is frustrated beyond belief…it is his career we are talking about . I feel bad for him and us !
In this world of super slo mo
And micro management, how can they not know what’s wrong?
"It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham." -Woody Allen
He's not complaining of pain
the only thing we know is that Ubaldo says it’s mechanical. What else can we go by? He’s just not altogether together.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I'm an alarmist by nature, but I'm not concerned with Ubaldo at all
He’s not hurt. That’s immediately obvious from looking at his form, his body language after throwing, and mph.
You don’t need to be a pitching coach to see what’s wrong. His motion is awful. Absolutely a mess. Like he ‘s been in a coma for a month and is trying to relearn how he used to pitch by watching video and trying to duplicate it. It’s not fluid, he’s rotating instead of driving toward the plate, he’s not accerlating at the end instead of smoothly through. It’s a disaster.
We also forget he through a 6 inning gem last time out, and even this time only gave up a few hits. The walks come from the bad form; we have really no choice but to let him pitch through it. It might take half the year, but he’ll be OK. If we’d been hitting at all behind him he’d have 3 wins.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Ya because lets just all pretend
that Ubaldo always had a motion that was wonderful, and made every pitching coach try to emulate it with their starters.
I love the Arm Chair Pitching Coaches, Hitting Coaches and managers on this site.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
What else is there to talk about?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
the weather
let’s talk about the weather.
/twirls parasol
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
eh... point taken
And BT probably has a point. I just don’t think we should treat Ubaldo’s Mechanics like they were once some beauty to behold and now they are trash.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
His mechanics have been goofy for sure, but they work for him.
He’s just discombobulated right now. As long as he recombobulates before mid June, I won’t freak out.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Same here
I’m not ever going to suggest changing what’s worked for him. However i would be lying if I said I wasn’t worried yet.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I wasn't worried til today
It looked like he had taken a step forward stuff wise the last start as everything was moving and had real life on it. He was wild in that game but he looked unhittable at times. Today he was wild and hittable – thats a real bad combination. His pitches did not have the late life they had vs the Giants.
It actually was very mechanically sound
Looked a little herky-jerky, but if you examine it without the extra motion thrown in, it was near perfect for propelling a ball hard and accurately. (In case you’re wondering, the single most perfect motion in MLB is LIncecum’s). It’s nothing like that now.
And just to defend myself a bit, I spend the better part of a decade coaching really good high school and above players. I do know a bit about this.
by BostonTransplant on May 12, 2011 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Wait, wasn't Timmy's considered completely unorthodox
and not something that most pitchers would emulate? His mechanics work for him because of his size.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I dont think it's his size that make his mechanics work
his father basically ‘developed’ that style for Tim and he’s been more or less pitching that way his entire life…At best it was Tim’s size that encouraged his dad to encourage mechanics that would utilize every part of his body and not just his arm…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I read that he did it that way because of his size.
Too make the most of his smaller stature as compared to most pitchers.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I guess it's just a nuanced thing then
the mechanics allow him to be an awesome pitcher but not because of his size. I think those mechanics would work on bigger guys (and girls too! Its the 21st century isn’t it??) as well…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Ok
I apologize for jumping all over you like that. Just seems like we have no shortage of people on here who think they know the one key to get Ubaldo, or Cargo, or Tulo out of their slumps, and if only they would listen to them, the Rockies would go 162-0
It gets old after a while.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Again, what else would we talk about?
I think most of the members here are just fans. I enjoy reading the armchair analysis myself.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I enjoy it too
but since I was never much of a pitching coach or hitting coach, I am not really able to break it down, and see if the person is correct, or blowing smoak, and after about 50 people chime in to give their opinion, I tend to err with cation.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Are you sure
that Justin Smoak would like that?
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
god there's some good puns on the smoak article on FG from like a week ago
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
I'm so glad you jumped on this
I thought “blowing Smoak! Like the Mariners 1B! It’s funny! I gotta post someth- ah, oo_nrb got me covered”
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:36 PM MDT up reply actions
oh yeah that's quantifiable
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Pfft. You stat heads.
I’ll take good old-fashioned Coolness Posted In over Value Over Replacement Poster any day.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
you're gonna have to park adjust that
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Not having a very good spelling/typing day
guess it serves me right for jumping all over a guy for the mis-spelling Jim Tracy
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
more arm-chair theorizing
Smoak would probably ask “how hot is she? (or he! – we technically don’t know these things)”
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
You mean he wonders if she is "smoakin"?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Normally I'd agree
but in this instance she might only be technically “smoakin’” once she consents to said act with said eponymous professional athlete
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
This is a good point.
Boom Roasted. Smoaked
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I enjoyed this conversation.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I hear that Russian psychic physicist dude is available to help the rox
since the Dodgers let him go.
/this is a joke
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
Hard to believe the Rockies have lost nine straight games Ubaldo has started
Also, I know this is cherry picking a little, but Ubaldo now has a 4.81 ERA in his last 25 starts going back to June 23rd of last season. If Ubaldo doesn’t put up some really good starts in his next few outings, we will have a 365 day period where Ubaldo was a below average pitcher.
I wasn't alive during the dead ball era; but thanks to the Padres, I know what baseball was like back then.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on May 12, 2011 9:03 PM MDT reply actions
True, but
His second half last year was nothing at all like this. After the date above, he still had six starts in which he allowed one or zero earned runs, and eleven starts in which he gave up 3 ER or less. Had some bad games too, which is why his second-half numbers weren’t Cy Young material. But he was still very good in about 2 of every 3 starts. By contrast, in 2011, he’s really not strung together more than a handful of innings in which he gave his team any chance of winning.
I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t see this as a decline that began last year. He certainly fell back to reality in the 2nd half of last year. But in 2011, he’s fallen off a cliff.
by Northsider1964 on May 12, 2011 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Ubaldo problems (My theory):
1. Velocity Issues – Due to a mechanical/physical problem, he has suffered decreased velocity and movement on his FB, making it a hittable pitch
2. Control Issues – He initially tried to compensate with “harder” effort, but he instead turned into an offspeed pitcher, working backwards. Harder pitches to control, more walks.
3. Compounding effect – He can’t throw strikes early in the count, so he has to rely on a weaker heater late in the count, an now hittable pitch. Alternatively, he now throws sliders and changeups in hitters counts, and rarely finds the zone.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Whatta crap game
Though I’m not sure all of the fuss about wake-up calls and roster shake-ups are really the thing to request.
We’re losing not because of role players like Giambi and Paulino but because of our regulars – guys we (or any team who had them) need are just not playing well right now. CarGo has been a mess, Tulo has been slumping, Stewart and Lopez are batting like relief pitchers. I also have no clue what is wrong with Ubaldo but he looked really bad out there today – like he was holding back or had no confidence or something. In theory, we have all of the pieces we need to succeed already on the team. Things would also be different if the aforementioned guys weren’t even playing well – just average performances would make things look very different. Not sure what the remedy to this is other than time and more at-bats. But those ab’s become precious as time and patience wane…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
would it be such a bad thing for ubaldo to, say, have an elbow problem, have TJ surgery, and have to learn to function without the elite velocity and become more of a command pitcher?
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
(assuming his recovery would be successful, of course)
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
Probably since he's never really been anything close to a command pitcher
Also after TJ surgery, velocity usually isn’t lost but command takes some time to regain itself. Even last season he did a crap job of not walking guys. He just gets (or got) away with it because he could either blow fastballs with a ton of movement by people or induce enough grounders to erase walks/minimize damage…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I don't know
would it be bad for an ace pitcher who throws in the upper 90’s to have TJ surgery and turn into Josh Fogg?
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
I guess I tend to go with the "don't fix it, if it ain't broke"
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Yup I tend to agree
Although one could argue that Ubaldo is broke….. I’m not there yet.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
i prefer when the rockies win
Rockies record when I am in attendance: 1-1
by pacified on May 12, 2011 9:35 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
ubaldo needs to stop walking people.
i guess that is “control”.
WTF do I know. I’m guessing after you issue a bunch of walks, you probably tend to throw with less velocity and over the plate… cuz you be trying to throw strikes.
Rockies record when I am in attendance: 1-1
The hitters need hits, too
we should go in together as baseball consultants.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions
At least all of our fielders have gloves
and cleats and sunglasses or eye black. That’s why we lead the league in defensive awesomeness or something
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
and from what I hear
having a glove is really important or something…. almost as important as having eye black
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Cricket players scoff at glovage
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
CarGo almost ruined our
DAAR-Defensive Awesomeness Above Replacement
with that sunglasses debacle
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Maybe we need more pine tar. Or more batting donuts.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions
better sunflower seeds in the dugout.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I hear that the team doesn't refill the water coolers for every game and just waits until it runs out
our players have been drinking old, de-oxygenated water leading to fatigue and a penchant for weak ground balls.
Solution: Store the water in the humidor as well.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Solution: More steroids in the water.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions
co-signed
yo, we all make excellent baseball consultants. Also, can the moderators delete all of these comments? I don’t want bloggers (aka enemy-consultants) of other teams stealing our proprietary baseball know-how
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Or more glazed donuts.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
We need a new llama.
And Dex needs to switch out his rice and toast.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
by glaucophane on May 12, 2011 10:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Ty Wigginton played in both AAA games tonight.
The Sky Sox are working on a late game comeback in the second game.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
Hopefully he remembers to bring back whatever Stewart was on when he was down there
my guess is AAA opponent pitching, but I could be wrong…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
He can't bring the entire Security Service Field with him either.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:59 PM MDT up reply actions
then why the hell did we sign him
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
ironically, if things had panned out the way we intended
you’d be saying
See: Helton, Todd
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Couldn't get there. Lost by 1 run, 11-10
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions
You know who did have a hell of a game... Josh Fields.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions
What happened to Thomas Field?
Or is he not with AAA?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He's AA's second baseman.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Ahh thanks.
I remember him from ST. He made some nice plays as I recall.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He had a good year last year that propelled him into the PuRPs attention (even made the list).
He’s not off to a great start so far in Tulsa, but it is early yet.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Can we use common since here
If you want to blame the state of the team on the fact that:
Giambi isn’t hitting and is wasting a roster spot
Stewie hasn’t taken that next step and has been horrid
Lopez has almost been as bad as Stewie
Spilly is a shell of his former self
Tulo has slumped a bit (despite leading the team in HR’s and having an OPS of .871)
Cargo hasn’t gotten going yet
Something is wrong with Ubaldo
Then fine. But for anyone who wants to blame the problems with this team are due to our Second Lefty out of the bullpen, and his 2.08 ERA, needs to have their heads examined.
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Well, he's throwing harder... not that it's helping because he's having to slow himself back down to have anything remotely resembling control.
So… fair enough.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:02 PM MDT up reply actions
I have my doubts about the holding-it-back/slowing-it-down theory
He’s still sitting 93, which is nearly 4 ticks lower than last year. I don’t think that happens by choice/necessity.
Short of a miracle, I am starting to think that the “new” Ubaldo is an OK 4th starter.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I just don't see why he would do this.
He has everything to lose by not disclosing the injury and nothing to gain. He’s not a question mark for being in the rotation now or next year. I know you can cite competition and not wanting to let the team down, however, I think that doesn’t apply to Ubaldo. He’s the staff ace. He knows it, the team knows it.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He’s the staff ace. He knows it, the team knows it.
Isn’t that exactly why he wouldn’t? Doesn’t want to let the team down?
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah. Even though I don't think he's hurt right now myself, the argument that he would take that responsibility because of his position with the team doesn't fly.
2008 Jeff Francis covered up arm pain for a month the year after he established himself as the team ace.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Nope. Because being the staff ace
gives him far more flexiibility and reason for the team to get him on the DL ASAP, to prevent ruining him for later this season or next season.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
But after this many starts of struggling?
If it was all because he was hurt, wouldn’t he want to get some medical attention? I just don’t see it.
I'm with you holly.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
But mainly, I just don't think Ubaldo would continue lying about something like that.
There’s no way they’re not regularly asking him about how he’s feeling, that the trainers aren’t regularly talking to him, etc.
If he is lying about it
I say we all go out and buy custom jerseys with Ubal’s number on the back but instead of it saying ‘Jimenez’ they’ll say ‘Pavano’
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
aww poor Dontrelle
he was the man
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Exactly.
FREE CHRIS NELSON
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on May 12, 2011 11:28 PM MDT up reply actions
The cut cuticle might have extended that leash
in the minds of people it may effectively buy Ubal a couple of starts before we all start questioning health.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
That's what common sense says...
… but after Francis did just that (and seriously, of all the people you’d expect to be up front about that sort of thing…), I just don’t read much stock into it anymore. Heck, for all we know, Ubaldo hasn’t even allowed himself to accept it yet. (All this as devil’s advocate, I still think this is Ubaldo battling command more than injury).
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think he neccissarily knows that he's hurt
but I think there are fundamental problems including injuries, arm strength, and mechanical issues that are much bigger than “control.”
I have my doubts about him long-term
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
"I don't think he neccissarily knows that he's hurt"
Heh, just had the same thought ip above.
I still don’t see an arm strength problem. I see a guy going easy on himself because he’s afraid of what will happen if he tries to go max. But hey, I don’t claim to know.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Isn't Ubaldo kind of a freak about his body and his health?
I mean he was going to be a doctor. Now this no “physician heal thyself”, but I just don’t think Ubaldo would let it linger so long if he thought there was injury.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I don't think so either. but I don't know so.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:17 PM MDT up reply actions
It could see it for a start or two
if he didn’t think it was serious and thought he could pitch through it until it healed or whatever. But after this long, and still struggling, I have a hard time seeing it, since it seems like it would be at the point where he’d be better off getting treatment.
If he's hurt and doesn't know it (which I still don't think)
than it’s on the team to get him examined. For all we know they’ve done that.
If we were TOPPING OUT that low, I'd agree, but he isn't.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions
As far as I've seen, his velocity chart has just been shifted 3-4 MPH down
He used to top out at 100-101, and sit at 96-97. He now tops out at 96-98, and sits at 92-94.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
He hit 99 in his second start ago
I would think that if his arm was hurt, he wouldn’t even be able to go that high. I think the fact that he’s sitting so low is just exactly the evidence that he’s throwing softer on purpose consistently.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
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by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:16 PM MDT up reply actions
he really looked like he was holding back big time today
you could see it in the parts of his body that weren’t impacted by a cut cuticle (ie everywhere).
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
According to Fangraphs his FB is averaging 92.7 vs 96.1 last year..
what’s funny though is the batter’s contact% is nearly identical to last year across the board. So maybe he just needs to build up his arm strength so he can reach the higher velo.
I just don't see any reason why he would do that for this long.
I can see why some guys might do it at first, thinking they can play through it, but it’s been a number of starts now. From what I know about Ubaldo, I just don’t see him lying like that for this long.
I don't think he's deliberately hiding something
But I think the team, at least on the surface, seems to have “accepted” the low-velocity Ubaldo. Or at least they are pretending that his velo is back, which it CLEARLY is not. I don’t care what the explanation is, he’s throwing slower and hitters are tee-ing off the FB which used to be a legit pitch.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I don't agree the team is accepting low velocity Ubaldo for a season standard.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
It's literaly 4 mph
Which, on average, translates to a full run per 9 innings.
I.E. 2.88 ERA- 3.88 ERA, 3.06 FIP – 4.06 FIP, etc.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
It just seems like Ubaldo and the team said after his third start
“The power is back, but the command is missing.”
That scared me, because he was still significantly low that start.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
command doesn't just mean throw ball in zone, either
if he’s commanding his fastball, he’ll sit 97 and touch 101.
If he’s not commanding it, he’ll drastically underthrow it until one of those “reach back” moments, and then God help us all when he releases it.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I doubt that personally
Plenty of pitchers go though extreme periods of command issues, but you don’t see them lose 4 MPH, or even 2 MPH suddenly.
Point is, he’s not throwing hard, and that makes him a worse pitcher. If it’s really all based on command issues, then let’s pray he can locate-and-let-loose. But I don’t think the holding-back theory can explain 4 MPH.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I don't know this information,
but how many times during Ubaldo’s awesome first half did he throw upper 90’s for the majority of his pitches? I prefer he gains his control and then props up the speed.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
He's hitting higher than that, though. Just not with any clarity.
I definitely think he’s laying off because he’s not in the right spot to know what to do with his A-level stuff.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Frankly, I think that explanation is just rationalizing the effects from larger problem.
Guys simply don’t lose this much velocity between two seasons, control problems or not.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I don't think it's every that simple.
I just feel that if it were a legit arm problem, he’d be maxing out down there.
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"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on May 12, 2011 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions
But is it really "losing velocity" if he's still capable of hitting it, just not controlling it?
I know we’re all just speculating either way, but I don’t see why we would be more worried about the velocity than the control, if he was indeed dialing it back precisely because of the control. Yeah, the velocity would be a problem, but the control would then be the root problem, not the velocity.
I'm not
I’m his doctor.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions
You don't just play one on TV?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
degree and everything
granted, that degree came off of the back of a box of Golden Grahams.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I would have more respect
if it was a least from a box of LIFE
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
they were offering MBAs
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Do you really need an MBA?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
To deal with insurance companies these days, yes
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say it's playoffs or bust"- J. Hammel
Orig.Thugget Loyalist #4, UNugg #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I only have a degree that's LIKE an MBA
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions
fair enough
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
damn right
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I graduate tomorrow
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
niiiiiiice
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Hollywood Upstairs Medical College
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
well. done.
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I like to imagine that the trainers have been approaching him
asking him if he’s hurt and all that stuff, but our trainers only speak English and don’t understand when Jimenez responds ‘Ayuda me ahora por favor’
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
that's incredibly funny
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Also, and this is an honest question.
I know he has two types of fastballs, one that has always been a bit slower than the other. Does anyone know if he’s been using both this year, and if so, whether he’s had less control problems on one over the other? I’m wondering if that might explain some of the velocity problems, if he’s simply throwing a lot less of his normally faster pitch. I have no idea either way, but it might be interesting to look into.
I don't know about the control problems with either one
But he throws a sinking 2-seam and a running 4-seam. The 2-seam was actually thrown harder last year than the 4-seam.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I agree that this explanation is logical
But I don’t think it can explain reality. 4 MPH is a ton (it’s off the charts when comparing Ubaldo to other pitchers who lost velocity from year-to-year), and unless Ubaldo is holding it back in a never-before-measured way, there HAS to be some arm issues too.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Close. More like 3.5 MPH
His start vs. the Giants was nearly as slow as Opening Day.
He’s afraid to even throw the heater right now. He throws more sliders and splitters than fastballs now, which is bizzare even for a guy like Jeff Francis who was a “finesse” pitcher.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Is the MPH drop you cite just fastballs, or an average of all pitches?
Either way, I still don’t think injury is the only explanation.
I agree with the mix-of-both idea 100%
But I think it may be more injury/mechanical than holding-back. Maybe 65%-35%?
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
If there's any injury at all, the holding back doesn't matter one bit.
I just don’t think there’s any injury, especially after this many starts of struggling. I feel like it would have come out by now one way or another (either Ubaldo going to the trainers, or the team getting him checked out and finding something).
Now, I concede that something could still be revealed.
It just seems the far less likely possibility to me.
To clarify
I don’t think an “injury” necessarily means arm pain or dead-arm stuff (i.e. obvious problems.) I think some injuries are “invisible”: slight muscle weakness, wrist flexibility problems, trunk-rotation problems, stride problems. They aren’t screaming “MAJOR CAREER-THREATANING INJURY,” but they add up to major velocity problems.
Even more than that, there could be mechanical issues that don’t necessarily affect control but sap velocity. I don’t know what they would be, but I don’t doubt that they could exist.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I think pretty much anyone who doesn’t think there’s an injury thinks there are mechanical problems. I think pretty much a given.
There seems to be a large camp on PR that thinks
(at least for the most part) that the velocity issues can be explained away as a side-effect of control problems (holding-back).
Any evidence that I’ve seen suggests that this kind of velocity drop doesn’t occur by choice – most of these guys are finely-tuned machines, and the velocity of the pitches is as much a part of their delivery as their command is. In other words, Ubaldo’s delivery was built to throw 97, and “backing off” doesn’t really work, because it requires a literal change in the delivery.
This isn’t to say that pitchers don’t add-or-subtract velocity, because it’s obvious that they do. But they don’t suddenly subtract 4 mph from their heater because they don’t trust their command – that would only make the problem worse.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
I guess I see control problems as a function of mechanical problems.
I don’t see how perfect mechanics would be giving him this kind of control problems. I just assumed that everyone who was talking about control problems would also agree he had mechanical problems. Maybe I’m the only one who made that assumption, but I would be surprised if that was the case.
Way back when
There was a guy named Gooden who had a season like Ubaldos 1st half last year. The next spring the Mets taught him a new pitch (and he got into blow) and his core pitches diminished. The point I am trying to make is that maybe Ubaldo doesn’t need two different fastballs, a split, a curve, a slider, and a change. He didn’t throw the split last year and used mainly one kind of fastball.
Lose the whole bag of tricks for now focus on the 4 seamer, the change, and the slider for a few starts and see what happens. There is no reason to add all these pitches into the arsenal becausewhen he was right he could survive on a couple of pitches. It is time for the Rox to simplify things for him. I actually suspect he might add back a couple MPH if he wan’t messing around with these new pitches.
Correcting myself
he may have had a split last year but he sure didn’t throw it a lot. He mainly threw the 3 pitches above.
that sounds plausible
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
it's 3.21 now
that homer didn’t help things
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions
In fairness, he's not just any Second Lefty
but a load-bearing Second Lefty so its totally different
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Someone write the Rockpile for me.
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I will
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
nice thanks
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:38 PM MDT up reply actions
whats the format
and how many expletives can I use?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
answer to both is 36
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by Andrew Martin on May 12, 2011 10:49 PM MDT up reply actions
on it!
I’d totally write a rockpile – but I wouldn’t provide links. Too lazy, I’d just link to ‘Google’
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
see how efficient that was?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I think you should leave all your impotent jermalistik dooties up to this guy.
Unless Charlie’s too busy devaluatin’ other people’s lesser stats, that is…
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 13, 2011 2:44 AM MDT up reply actions
no sir, i will not be rickrolled!
not again, anyway…
you still have to play the game, no matter how shiny liriano's FIP is*
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
*f. liriano's FIP currently sits at 5.93**
** suck it dave cameron
well hell
I have an hour until I can leave work, I could just write some sort of fan shot and have you bump it to the front page or whatever….
It's Jim Tracy's Fault.
Or have a fan shot and post a link to a video of it.
It doesn’t have to be a mortal wound, either.
Nomadic baseball fan, with no agenda other than observation/conversation/mass confusion/mass consumption. And annoying 09.
Prosecutor: "Jesus Christ, did ANYBODY tell the truth to the grand jury?"
Barry Bonds: "I did."
Prosecutor: "GAH!"
by victor frankenstein on May 13, 2011 2:53 AM MDT up reply actions
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