Spring 2011 PuRPs List: #5-1
This is it, ladies and gentlemen -- the moment you've all been waiting for...okay, probably not, but it's here anyway! Today the top five Colorado Rockies prospects as voted on by the Purple Row community are revealed. On Monday I'll wrap up this series with a look at the list as a whole, but for now, let's take a look at the future stars in Colorado's minor league system.
Here are PuRPs 30-26, 25-21, 20-16, 15-11, and 10-6. As a reminder, thirty-five ballots were cast in this edition of the PuRPs poll, with 30 points being granted for a first place vote, 29 for second, etc. Until a player was named on twelve ballots, his vote totals were modified on a sliding scale to avoid an individual ballot having too much say over the community forecast -- but none of the above players had that problem, as all thirty players on the PuRPs list were named on at least sixteen ballots.
For each player, I've included a link to their stats (via Baseball-Reference), their relevant "tool scores" on a 1-100 scouting scale (which is explained here) per the wonderful Baseball Cube, their contract status (via Rockies Roster), their probable MLB ETA (assuming they do make the Show), and a note on their 2011 season so far.
Remember that neither the tool scores nor the statistics pages are the end-all be-all when evaluating these players. Context is hugely important (such as the player's age relative to the league's average or the league average offensive numbers), as is the fact that injuries to prospects can affect both their tools and their stats.
5. Nolan Arenado (872 points, 34 ballots) -- Stats -- Fall 2010 Ranking: 4
Arenado, a 20 year-old third baseman at High A Modesto, is by far the best infield prospect in the system. His pure stroke got him named by Minor League Ball's John Sickels as the top Rockies prospect this offseason (and #80 in all of the minors by Baseball America), and with the numbers he put up last year as a 19 year-old in the South Atlantic League (.308/.338/.508 with 54 XBHs in 92 games), it's easy to see why. He's not the most patient of hitters, but he doesn't strike out much either due to his excellent contact skills. After a slow start in High A Modesto (where the average age is 22-23), he has picked the pace back up, hitting a respectable .283/.331/.429.
While Arenado has gotten slapped with the "destined for first base tag", reports (including this one from Muzia) have arisen stating that Arenado's defense at the hot corner has really improved. It's hard for a prospect to overcome the reputation created by a scouting report that states a player is "duck-footed and lumbers". Sure, Arenado's not going to win many footraces, but he's a passable defender at third now. Combined with his offensive potential, that should make for a quick ride through the system to the big leagues, maybe even before his 22nd birthday.
Hit Tools
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Contract Status: 2009 2nd Round, Not Rule 5 Eligible, 3 options remaining
MLB ETA: Mid-2013
4. Tyler Matzek (891 points, 35 ballots) -- Stats -- Fall 2010 Ranking: 1
Let's just say that 2011 hasn't been a very good year for Tyler Matzek. Coming into the season, he was the consensus top Rockies prospect (#32 overall by BA), a pitcher who had been unhittable as a 19 year-old for Asheville. Yes, there were issues -- namely, that even though he was allowing only six hits per nine innings, he was walking just as many (he gave up 62 hits and 62 walks last year) -- but his K rate was 8.9 and his ERA was 2.92, good enough for a promotion to High A as a 20 year-old.
Then this year happened. In 10 awful starts for Modesto, Matzek put up a 9.82 ERA and a 2.42 WHIP. He was striking out 10.1/9, but he was walking 12.5/9. After being demoted to Asheville, he has walked 9 more men in 7.2 IP. Until he can find the plate (and, if some reports are to be believed, his velocity), Matzek doesn't look ready to progress much further.
So why did the community vote him as the 4th best prospect (two put him as the top guy, though one left him off the ballot entirely)? For the simple reason that of any prospect in the system, Matzek probably has the highest ceiling -- and he's still only 20 years old! He's one of two guys that I put in my elite tier because of his All-Star potential. With every poor outing and report of lost velocity or mechanics, the ceiling lowers from ace to mid-rotation starter, but what was once lost can again return. At least, that's what I keep telling myself.
Pitch Tools -- yes, that's the lowest possible rating in control
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Contract Status: 2009 1st Round, Not Rule 5 Eligible, 3 options remaining
MLB ETA: 2014
3. Kyle Parker (907 points, 35 ballots) -- Stats -- Fall 2010 Ranking: 9
Colorado's 1st rounder (and former starting QB for Clemson) last year was touted by scouts as a raw hitter with some athleticism. Then he exploded offensively in his first month in Asheville (evidently enough to earn him a first place vote by a PR community member). Then the 21 year-old outfielder fell into an offensive funk from which he has yet to fully recover, ending up with a respectable hitting line of .274/.336/.447. Unfortunately, he's shown a tendency to strike out (around 26-27% of his PAs) four times as much as he walks, but plate discipline is something that can be taught a whole lot easier than raw power.
To be honest, I wasn't much of a fan when this pick was announced and I'm not sure about it now. Parker's plus power is a tool that I covet in prospects, though, and he showed in April that he was capable of punishing the baseball when he is hot. He's got some growing pains to get through, but he really only just began to focus on baseball full-time. If he emerges successfully from these pains, he's a corner outfielder or first baseman with plus power and an All-Star ceiling.
Hit Tools -- the patience score is highly influenced by his college numbers
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Contract Status: 2010 1st Round, Not Rule 5 Eligible, 3 options remaining
MLB ETA: 2014
2. Juan Nicasio (932 points, 35 ballots) -- Stats -- Fall 2010 Ranking: 13
Nicasio, a 24 year-old RH starter who is now plying his trade for the Rockies, rode the helium he created with his dominant start up from AA (5-1, 2.22 ERA, 6.30 K/BB ratio over 56.2 IP) straight to the big leagues. His upper 90s sinking fastball makes fans and scouts alike salivate, and if his off-speed deliveries improve, Nicasio could be something special -- special enough that he was named the system's top prospect by two voters.
Since he was a late signee (at 19) out of the Dominican Republic, Nicasio has always been a little old for his level, advancing one per year. However, he has acquitted himself well, with a 3.40 ERA as well as a 4.49 K/BB ratio in 5 minor league seasons. So far in the majors he's shown the potential for high strikeout totals as well as good control. Those traits will serve him well in the Show.
Pitch Tools
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Contract Status: 2006 Amateur Free Agent (DR), 40 Man Roster, 2 options remaining
MLB ETA: Now
1. Wilin Rosario (1020 points, 35 ballots) -- Stats -- Fall 2010 Ranking: 2
Unsurprisingly, Rosario was the runaway winner for the top prospect in the Spring 2011 PuRPs poll, garnering 25 of the 35 first place votes. The 22 year-old catcher was ranked #49 overall by Baseball America coming into the season despite the torn ACL he had suffered to end his banner 2010 season early, and it was easy to see why. Rosario has an elite arm behind the plate, elite power for a catcher, and he dominated AA offensively as a 21 year old (a rare combination indeed). Who knows, without the injury he could be in MLB right now.
Rosario has 20-25 HR potential in the big leagues (given playing time) while hitting for a little higher batting average than Chris Iannetta does now. With any luck, he could be showcasing his skills with Colorado this September or even sooner if the Rockies deal Jose Morales.
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Contract Status: 2006 Amateur Free Agent (DR), 40 Man Roster, 2 options remaining
MLB ETA: Late 2011
I hope you enjoyed reading this series as much as I did writing it! Check back on Monday for my thoughts on the list as a whole.
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Comments
so do we see Pacheco or Rosario in Denver first?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
The way things are going, I'd gander a guess at both being Sept callups around the same time
Pacheco isn’t banging down the door at AAA, but I’d have a hard time not seeing both get a look
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
So, forgive me for not following the minors as closely as I should
How does our system stack up against the division, league, etc?
by Purple Row Troll on Jun 17, 2011 10:33 AM MDT reply actions
Pretty well, I think.
Prior to the season most publications I saw ranked our farm system in the top 10 range overall, but that was also good for 3-5 in the NL, and the best in the NL West. Plus I’d say it’s only improved since then.
Alanna Rizzo is my dream girl.
by Cargo's Ball Sack5 on Jun 17, 2011 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Really?
This series gave me the impression that our “cupboard” was relatively bare.
by Purple Row Troll on Jun 17, 2011 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions
Pretty good system depth, but lacking in true "impact" prospects that are close to the show
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Thanks!
Ok, that is much more in line with my completely non-statistically based “feelings” on our system.
by Purple Row Troll on Jun 17, 2011 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Question on Arenado
I seem to remember one ballot that left him off entirely, but you show him as being on all 35 ballots. Did you get a correction later or something?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
I accidentally took it off Matzek (who was on all 35) instead of Arenado
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
That explains it!
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 5:00 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm really surprised at this top 5
and not in a good way.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Agreed
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm pretty shocked with Arenado at 5
I know he dropped to the mid-teens on a couple ballots (and as I mentioned above, seemed to be left off one entirely), but so were Matzek and Parker, I think…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm more shocked at Nicasio at 2 and Parker at 3
I can’t think of any reason for either to be ranked as top three prospects in this system
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
if Arenado was punished for defense, Parker should have as well.
if Arenado was punished for a slower year in a pitching park, then Parker should be punished for being average in a hitter’s paradise. I cannot understand the reasoning here. Not to mention Arenado is younger and plays a very weak position within our system.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Then again, there's also the question of how the third or fourth best pitching prospect in our system
is #2 on this list.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
probably because he's with the big club
and matzek and friedrich had tyler matzek and christian friedrich’s 2011 seasons
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
The last ballot was cast 5/28
the same day as Nicasio’s debut.
Seeing what he’s done since then would have moved him up my list, though…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions
they still had had their respective seasons to that point, though
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
Just addressing the "with the big club" theory
The rest I agree with you on.
But hopefully there is more to these rankings than “who had the best first month of the minor league season?”…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions
hopefully there is more to these rankings than "who had the best first month of the minor league season?
That’s the disturbing trend I’m seeing
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
That's precisely why I havea waited to vote until I felt like I had a couple years of following the farm system.
I’ll vote in the fall, though.
by blooming rock on Jun 17, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions
Ditto
Hey Baseball Gods. FINE!!! IT HURTS!!! I HAVE SACRAFICED ALL MY TACOS TO YOU!!! WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!!!!
Who was a better prospect than Nicasio at the time of the poll?
Matzek? Friedrich? No way, in the real world.
Tago? Perhaps, IF he starts to string together some good outings. Not enough history to tell, yet.
All Nicasio had going for him was that he was putting up Chacin-like
minor league numbers. He didn’t have high numbers from experts or a
hype from being a low-round pick. That’s why the last PURP poll drastically
under-rated him. The same phenomenon continues with others.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
...based on nine AA starts. That's my issue.
Nicasio was good but not great before this year. Suddenly he’s our top pitching prospect? I don’t get it.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Jun 17, 2011 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
"at the time of the poll"
I think this should indicate you might be relying too much on the most recent performance of players. Take Tim Wheeler for example. Many would have left him off their ballot completely in September if not for his draft pedigree and scouting reports. Those have to be taken into account.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was referring to Nicasio, the time of the poll (for most submitters)
being before his call-up.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
Minor league performance weighted heavier than draft pick "hype", which is just how I look at them.
That was the comment posted with Maris61’s list. So I don’t think he has ever left much question that his methodology is weighted in that direction.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Personally, I ranked Nicasio a tiny bit ahead of Friedrich for the #2 pitching prospect (behind Matzek)
There’s something to be said for dominating AA, and that was the tiebreaker for me.
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READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
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Two sides of the same coin
I would expect to see them lower, and Arenado a bit higher. I definitely had Nicasio too low at 10, but 2 is probably a bit extreme the other way. Parker very well might have gotten a reputation bounce this time, since there weren’t really results to look at when we voted. Similar to Tago, but magnified to top draft pick levels..
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Many of the Parker ballots were probably after his strong first few weeks of the season
I can kinda understand that.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I can
Because Matzek’s looking like a bust.
Because neither Arenado’s nor Pacheco’s/Rosario’s 2011 offensive numbers are anything special.
Because Friedrich isn’t dominating at AA.
I don’t see a lot of elite prospects in the system, and our recent top picks aren’t rocketing through the minors like some others have (Tulo, Posey).
Nicasio’s stats practically screamed “Call me up!.” I wish there were others in the system in the same position, but I don’t see any right now with the possible exception of Wheeler, who’s at a position where his services arent needed w/ the Rox this season, barring injury or unexpected collapse of the current outfield crew.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
Have you seen the past month for Arenado?
Friedrich has found consistency, and thats plenty good for me.
I don’t call 20 year old kids “busts” You cannot compare development rates for kids drafted out of high school to college bats.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Consistency at what level for Friedrich?
Consistency alone isn’t that important. Hell, Matzek’s been very consistent all year.
Friedrich’s consistent at an above-average level in AA. At his age and being drafted out of college rather than high school, I’d have to see him dominate at AA to put him in the Top 5 prospects category. His 10 most recent starts reflect a 1.36 WHIP (my favorite stat for evaulating minor league pitchers), an avg.-against of .286, K’s slightly less than 1 per inning. Not bad, but not great, either.
For someone being touted a couple of years ago (pre-injuries) as a possible late-season callup, meaning he was almost ready for the Majors, I’d hoped to see Friedrich (now fully healthy, as far as I know) racking up Chacin-like numbers at AA. Hasn’t happened yet.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
Friedrich is younger than Nicasio, and is coming off a year of arm injuries
These things have to be taken into account.
Right now, Friedrich looks like a solid #3 in the majors. Nicasio looks like a…solid #3 in the majors.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
They're less than a year apart
And Friedrich’s had more pitching experience, with his college background.
I wouldn’t consider Friedrich current performance level as indicative of a solid #3 starter in the Majors. More of a Greg Reynolds-like fringe #5.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
You see Friedrich as a #5 starter right now? Did you put him on your ballot at all?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I did.
I think I had him toward the bottom of my Top 10, or maybe high teens. I’d have to go back & look.
I think he’s still got potential. I just don’t see him having a break-out year, which I think is what it would take to classify him as a mid-rotation big league starter.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
We have a very sad system if you voted a pitcher that you see as a fringe starter between 10-15
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I wouldn't call it sad
but I don’t think it’s looking too good at present. I don’t think overall it’s as good as many on PR think it is.
I follow 3 teams’ systems closely — the Rays (near the top, by most accounts, and I agree … a top pitching prospect tossed a CG no-hitter at AA last night, and event that would create “call him up right now” posts on PR) and the Astros (near the bottom, even after 2 years of “new and improved” scouting). What I look for is (a) high draft picks performing as they were expected to perform and moving up through the system (Posey, Tulo, Longoria types), and (b) not-so-hyped players having breakout years (Nicasio, or an Astros AA player named Jose Altuve … just look at his numbers).
I don’t see any of the Rockies’ recent top picks (except for maybe Wheeler) pushing their way up through the system with league-dominating numbers, and Nicasio’s the only “breakout” guy I’ve seen this year among the non-hyped. (Other than Zuanich, who’s being ignored, but should be put into AA immediately to see if he can keep it up there.) That’s what worries me. There’s a lot of “he’s doing OK, he still has potential”. Too much of that.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
Bettis, Brothers, Cabrera, Ortega, Wheeler, Arenado, Rosario
I think there’s a ton of guys you’re overlooking who are having good to great years and are pushing their way through the system
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I mentioned Wheeler
and Brothers would fit, too.
The others? Not so much. I’d say all of them were having OK years for their level, none ot them a great year. Particularly Rosario. April should be written off for him as injury-recovery time, but since then, he’s not exactly dominating AA. He’s certainly not at the level
Wheeler is in A+ compared to the league. I haven’t
seen him catch, and must take it on faith that his defense is near-Bench like, because defensive stats for minor league catchers are hard to come by. But
he’s never hit for a .300 avg in the minors, and his power numbers don’t blow me away. He’s a good
prospect, but not a #1 prospect, I don’t think.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
28 HR's in 460 AB's in Tulsa
What’s not to like about those power numbers?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
he didnt say he didnt like the numbers, just that they're not blowing him away
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
also, he hit .316 in Casper
over almost 300 AB’s in 2008. As a 19 year old…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
So you just told us that
1. The Rockies system ranks somewhere below the #2 system in the minors.
2. The Rockies system ranks somewhere above the #28 best system in the minors.
3. You ignore Rex Brothers and Charlie Blackmon for your convenience.
4. You have zero clue how Christian Friedrich was expected to perform when he was drafted. As both he and Brothers are doing exactly what the Rockies drafted them for admirably.
5. Ditto Nolan Arenado.
6. You place too much emphasis on two months worth of performance rather than a career of performance (see Wilin Rosario.)
Frankly, I don’t know how much you’re adding save some woe-is-us griping about “hype” guys for some unknown reason (disgust over seven figure signing bonuses maybe?) sometimes needlessly as is the case with all the non-Matzek prospects .
I’m not saying that the Rockies system is without issues. Matzek’s definitely a trouble spot, but most prospects don’t perform at a top notch level all the time unless they’ve hit the big epiphany moment. Nicasio hit that, Wheeler may have. I think Blackmon did last year but it got overlooked. You say you follow Tampa Bay, and since you brought up his no-no, Matt Moore’s 20 year old season at Bowling Green was hardly dominant, especially the first two months. He walked over 20% of the batters he faced, similarly to Matzek. What were you saying about him then?
by Rox Girl on Jun 17, 2011 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
#24
“and sliding with every mediocre start”.
Yeah, I bookmarked that thread. I’m just that sad….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions
nicasio deserved to be so high just on pure domination
sure his age was a bit high for AA, but his experience level really wasnt, given his status as an international free agent.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
I didn't know nine great starts at AA deserved #2 prospect status
There’s no question he’s broken out as a top prospect, but we’re basing these ballots on a miniscule sample size
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
They do when all the other top pitching prospects
are flopping or treading water.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
so 40 days of performance >>> years of scouting and millions of dollars
Ridiculous.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Jun 17, 2011 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, those MiLB lines dont ooze dominance
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7731&position=P
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
My argument is invalid anyway, since he won't be eligible for the Fall voting
I’m just stunned and disappointed by the results this time around
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
nicasio posted 443 innings of very good minor baseball
if he did that with the red sox or yankees, he would be the #1 prospect in baseball
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
not as a 24 year old, sorry
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Prior to 2011
25-21, 3.56 ERA, 404 k’s, 94 BB’s, 414.2 IP. (through A+ in 2010)
A very good line, but without the 9 outstanding starts this season, nothing that’s going to make him the #1 prospect in baseball, no matter what organization he’s in.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions
his numbers compare very favorably with jeremy hellickson
with the only exception that hellickson was a college kid, not international
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
actually hellickson was not college, my bad
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
Hellickson
49-16, 2.71 ERA, 634 k’s, 137 BB’s, 580.1 MiLB innings pitched. And he is a year younger than Nicasio.
Project Nicasio’s numbers out to 580.1 innings and you get somewhere around 570 K’s and 132 BB’s. But Hellickson has significant innings at levels above A+, and as I said, at a younger age.
Based on numbers through 2010 it would have been a big stretch to compare Nicasio to Hellickson.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
i think friedrich and matzek should be switched, but given everything, it's not at all unusual to see nicasio that high
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
But he's rated #2, and as our top pitching prospect because of his past 40 days
That’s tough to argue.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
if friedrich had gone into tulsa last year and treated it like he did A ball, then he would be the #1, without a doubt
and then if he had continued to dominate this year, whether in tulsa or springs, he would be #1 again… but he fell right of a cliff. i’ll give you 2010 for his injuries, but this year he’s merely slightly above average, and matzek is…. while certainly not a bust, a disappointment so far. based on track records, even considering their ages, nicasio should be higher, this year; maybe not overall forever, but this year.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
Well I guess that's a difference of how people look at it
Most prospect lists don’t differentiate between “this year” and “future.” In fact, most are strictly “future prospect” status.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
i mean how of a difference do you think it makes to these guys if nicasio, matzek, and friedrich all woke up today, checked PR, and saw their PuRP rankings?
same thing for DOD… i really dont see all that much difference between being the organization’s #1, #2, and #3 pitching prospects in principle
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
That's kind of a silly question
Of course they don’t care, but if I qualified every comment and article I write on PR with how much anyone in the org reads into it, I wouldn’t write a word.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
poorly worded response
my point was that how much real difference is there between nos. 1-10 of the system, where all 3 of the top pitchers lie? its not like they were 25-30
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
in our system, there is quite the gap between #1 and #10, in my opinion
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
in this specific year, yes, of course
rosario is clearly well ahead of tim wheeler, and i dont think you could rationally argue any other side to that. but we have 4 of the top 10 (top 9, actually) as starters, and one is a reliever pitchers, and they’re 2, 4, 6, 8, 9… it’s hardly a knock on matzek, though he shouldnt be top 5 with his issues, regardless of his ceiling at the moment.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
It's more of a credibillity thing.
We vote on this as a community, which I love, but a lot of people use this as a tool to evaluate our system. I think the current ranking is a very inaccurate — and skewed — picture of where our farm system currently sits.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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He had very good 2009 and 2010 minor league numbers
Then really took off this year. There was way more than 40 days’ history on him.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
friedrich's K rate dropped and BB rate increased with every increase in level he faced
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
I'm not arguing that Friedrich should be the top guy
His ceiling has certainly lowered after injury. There just seems to be an extreme bias in this spring’s ballot towards the first month of the minor league season. I dislike that trend.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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As far as I can tell, Matt, for you the Purps vote is purely focused on potential.
I rated Nicasio, Nelson, Brothers and a couple of others because they have made it to the show (or were obv about to, like Blackmon). Nelson may end up with a 4 WAR career as a ten-year AAAA player but that’s better than, what, 15-20 of this Purps list will ever manage. So he goes up the list accordingly.
I LOVE potential but it can’t be the be all and end all.
Muzia acknowledged something
that I think underlies many PURP rankings — “millions of dollars”.
IMO, the sunk costs in a player are almost irrelevant to what his current ranking should be, for anyone not in their initial season. There have been too many big-dollar busts — not just for CO, but for many teams — for me to ascribe much, if any, weight to how much a team thought a player was worth at signing-bonus time.
What they do between the lines when they hit the field should far outweigh what they put in the bank when they signed in evaluating prospects’ rank. Unfortunately, I think the latter factor is often given more emphasis.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
if it doesn't matter, then why even hire scouts?
Just sign and draft the college kids with the best numbers regardless of level and go from there.
There’s a reason the system is designed like it is, and there’s value in that information. To disregard it solely because of box score results is naive.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I don't disregard the scouting
But it’s educated guesswork at best. You just hope your team’s scouts guess right a little more often than the other teams’ scouts.
But basing someone’s ranking on what the scouts thought of him 3 years ago (particularly for high schoolers), as compared to what he’s done on the field for 2+ seasons, is getting it backwards, in my view.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
Do you take into account age vs. level at all?
I don’t agree with ignoring scouting reports from two years ago or even right now (like the ones that say Matzek still has top of rotation stuff), but I can see how someone would. The player’s age relative to who he faces in those games cannot be ignored though
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
age vs level is less important than experience vs level in nicasio's case, i would offer
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
I agree
Just more of a Matzek vs. Tanos type comparison
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
For first-year (pro) players, age is a consideration
After a full season, though, if an org. thinks a player is capable of performing at a given level, it doesn’t matter much to me if he’s performing against 2nd-year (out of high school players) or 5th-year (3 yrs college + 2 yeas pro). How well does he stack up against the competition?
Plus, different orgs move players at different rates, so the "typical age’ for a given level is not a very well-defined term, I don’t think.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
so if Mike Zuanich and Nolan Arenado end up with similar seasons this year, you'd rate them as equal?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Okay. Thanks for clarifying.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Really?
The actual top 6 PuRPs are the same top 6 you had, just in a different order. (And only one was ranked more than two spots away from where you had them)
I agree that Parker is ranked too high but I believe that the Nicasio selection at #2 can be justified.
1) The only two guys who I think you can make a case for that should be ranked higher than Nicasio are Matzek and Tago.
2) Both Matzkek and Tago are in “A” ball right now; meaning they are years away from the show. That’s quite a bit of unknown standing between them and where they need to go.
3) Point #2, which I admit is kind of week by itself, gains traction when you consider that neither is doing anything to impress right now – Tago do to inexperience and Matzek due to his absolutely dreadful season thus far.
4) Nicasio has been really, really good. Not just this year, but really the last three years. His ERA did jump in 2010 but his K/9 and BB/9 have remained excellent and those are things that usually translate well to the majors. (See Jhoulys Chacin who I think was always underrated by scouts) Throw in the fact that he can influence the big club RIGHT NOW and that moves him up a few notches.
5) (And this is really more of a bottom line) – There’s nobody in the system who is both A) “loved” by scouts with a really high ceiling (the Matzek type) and B) pitching really, really well at the same time. I think the lack of this speaks as much to Nicasio’s ranking as his great performances this season.
NO, we are NOT going to fire Jim Tracy midseason!!!!!
The Rockies couldn't be any more offensive or less offensive all at the same time.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jun 18, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
1) The only two guys who I think you can make a case for that should be ranked higher than Nicasio are Matzek and Tago.
There’s this guy named Arenado…
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Oops
Should have clarified that better as I wanted to get at the fact that Nicasio was the #1 pitching propect more than the fact that he was #2 overall. I usually try to get a separate lists of pitching and hitting prospects and then merge them because I think it can be tough to organize when you are measuring different skills.
I admit I ranked Arenado a couple notches too low on my list and can see the case for him being above Nicasio.
NO, we are NOT going to fire Jim Tracy midseason!!!!!
The Rockies couldn't be any more offensive or less offensive all at the same time.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jun 18, 2011 11:49 PM MDT up reply actions
why does rosario only have two options? when did we see him...?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
You use options even without coming up to MLB
Its based on Minor league service time. You have to use options after a period of time to keep players in the minors. Rosario apparently reached that time this year.
"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle
by BittenAnkles on Jun 17, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions
He was added to the 40-man this past off-season, I believe
And I know he was optioned to AA from MLB camp in spring training. So his first option is in use all this season
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Preciso
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Jun 17, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't want to complain too much about the balloting because I did not submit my own
That being said, I will most definitely be submitting one next go-around.
A few general comments… As group, I think we are a little high on Parker for the time being and low on Arenado and Friedrich. I would have probably put Nolan in the No. 2 slot behind Rosario with Matzek and Friedrich following. FWIW, Blackmon would have probably rounded out my top 5.
NIcasio is really interesting given that he was so good in Tulsa and has been good to great in the Majors, but not regarded in the top 3 or 4 of our pitching prospects. I wouldn’t have put him at 2, but 6-8 seems about right.
"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle
I have updated the sidebar widget to reflect the results of this voting
If anyone wants to know more about a player, his name is a link to his baseball reference page, and I again listed the player’s position and level. I tossed the HM’s on there for funsies.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 11:50 AM MDT reply actions
FWIW - You should change the date to read 6/17/2011 rather than 6/17/2010.
by blooming rock on Jun 17, 2011 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Good catch thanks
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Law Bangs "Rox Ruin Matzek" Drum
Chris (Newport Beach, CA)
Have the Rockies completely ruined Tyler Matzek by trying to fix his delivery Keith? What can be done to turn him around?
Klaw (1:31 PM)
Yes. I don’t really know what they can do.
I don’t really know what they can do.
Which is why he isn’t being asked to do it…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I wonder if he thinks that horse will get up and run...
He certainly seems to whipping it like he does.
I just love how he flat out says yes to the question of if the Rockies ruined him . . .
and then remarks that he has no idea what the Rox can do to “fix” him.
Those sound like two completely contrary thoughts thrown together.
If Law point blank thinks the Rox runied him, then he must have a pretty good idea of what they did to cuase that, but his second statement completely nullifies that.
by blooming rock on Jun 17, 2011 5:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think people understand how much of a leap forward Arenado has taken this season.
He’s essentially added 15 runs of value, a win and a half by transforming from a likely 1B to a player that could stick at 3B. He was Lyle Overbay, now he’s Placido Polanco. That’s a big deal.
#3 on my list, and I seriously considered putting him at #2
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Same
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 17, 2011 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I did put him at #2..
Just couldn’t leave Matzek that high right now. He slipped to #4….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 17, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Matzek has the rest of the summer to impress me, otherwise he drops
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
and by "impress", I mean "not be completely worthless"
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Whoever the person was who thought"hey let's change our top draft picks entire delivery"
SHould be tarred feathered and then Fired! If you want to tweak the 9 round picks delivery fine. But you draft guys early in the first BECAUSE YOU LIKE THEM AS THEY ARE!!!!! fine work on one pitch but Tyler had one season under his belt and they attepmt to completely redo a delivery that got him drafted. i would rather he go with what got him here and he blows out his arm in AA fine.
What exactly were the changes?
I’ve never heard a clear explanation of what was changed once he joined the organization, just vague “they changed his delivery” comments. I’m not ready to break out the pitch forks without knowing what was done after he joined the organization.
sure... you'd rather he blow his arm out in AA...
actually, what you’d rather, what we’d all rather is that he become the pitcher he can be. I don’t think any of us care about how he’d get there so long as it was legal and some among us wouldn’t care if it wasn’t. If your preferred scenario took place, I guarantee you there would be just as many if not more users on here in righteous indignation that our coaches didn’t make him take the necessary minor tweaks to prevent him from blowing out his arm in AA. “You let your 9th round picks take huge risks with their arms, but not the first rounders…”
Guess what? Sometimes shit happens. That it’s happening with the Rockies first round pick from 2009 sucks, but it’s not exactly unprecedented, nor is it something that will necessarily debilitate the team. It’s not even necessarily as permanent an issue for Matzek as some people (Keith Law, perhaps you) seem to actually desire it to be so they can moan about the FO or development staff or some other part of the organization that has their goat.
Speaking of which, I’d like it if somebody somewhere actually held Matzek partly responsible for his own troubles. Law’s stance, and the one that you’re taking here is so one-sided to be ridiculous and easily dismissed. It’s a political stance, not a reasoned one.
I’d like it if somebody somewhere actually held Matzek partly responsible for his own troubles
This has been my line of thinking lately. He has all the talent in the world, and you can only blame so much on coaching.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
So the guy has a 2.92 ERA and 88 strikouts. And you think he sucks??
Walked fewer than he struck although he walked to a few to many. You redo his entire delivery and he is junk ever since. He wasn’t injured, was 19 and had one year under his belt.
Since the change his velocity dropped his control got way worse and Ks are non existant and you have shredded his confidence. i’m not moaning about the front office at all i’m bemoaning about a coach and whoever gave hime the authority to change him after one season. If this had been 3-4 season in and we weren’t getting results I could understand. A former front office guy and renowned scout obviously doesn’t know as much about baseball as you.
So if I bat RH and the coach tell me I have to bat lefty from now on.
And I never get another hit it’s my fault??? Nice logic
You do realize the rumors of tweaking his delivery started LAST year?
This was before the 2.92 ERA and 88 strikeouts. He reportedly through very well in Fall Instructs, then has really regressed this year.
And I finally get who you're referring to with "former front office guy and renowned scout,"
Which also ticks me off as an appeal to authority fallacy. I’m not going to knock Keith Law’s intellect or baseball savvy here, but I will say that he can be, and has been wrong on occasion, and I can be, and have been, right every so often.
Unfortunately, he didn't help himself tonight
6 more walks in an inning and a third, struck out two, and allowed 8 earned runs. I’d really like to hear a report from somebody who’s seen Matzek recently. Is there anything positive he can take away from what he’s doing now?
sitting at 88mph apparently
Rough, rough news.
I spend all day defending you, Tyler, and then you go ahead and make me look like an idiot.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I wouldn't expect a quick fix.
Whatever’s going on will likely take awhile. I’m hoping to see something by the end of the season. For the velocity, I’m assuming (and possibly wishful thinking) that he’s holding something back while he’s working out the delivery issue.
He's a long term project, and I've accepted that fact.
Still, I’d like to see him make it to the fifth inning every once in a while.
It’s frustrating to see him continue to backslide a bit further with every start.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Agreed 100%
The results themselves don’t mean a thing in the long-run, but it’s the damage this could potentially do to his psyche. If he doesn’t start to have at least some success soon, it’d take a TON of mental fortitude to maintain any sort of confidence when he takes the mound.
I wonder if at least part of it is mental at this point.
Obviously that would only be a part, maybe a small one, but I have to think he’s got to be incredibly frustrated, and it wouldn’t surprise me if that is making things worse.
I could live with control issues or him losing a tick on the fastball, but...
to struggle with both really concerns me. I really fear that we’ll see him on a significant DL stint at some point this year.
At this point, Tommy John surgery may improve his control...
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
As funny as it sounds
I actually think news that he needed TJ surgery may be GOOD news at this point. It would explain the struggles and he’d have a good chance of full recovery. Unfortunately, if it is physical (and there’s really no reason to think it is at this point), phantom losses of control and velocity typically point to shoulders rather than elbows.
sounds like porcello's line
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
fire jim tracy: if you can closer-by-committee, you can manager-by-committee
I think a lot of that was timing
When the polling went up a month ago, reports of his d were just coming out, or at least that’s the first I’d heard. Also, he was hitting around .250, which wasn’t unexpected, but wasn’t great either. If the polling was done today I’d bet Arenado would be #2.
Purps Voting
I think we are seeing some of the flaws in the voting process, where individual votes can skew the process. I had mentioned when I posted my list and I will trumpet it again … On SB Nation/Minor League Ball they do a Community Prospects ranking and a few names are nominated, and then folks register their votes with a +1. It also allows a bit of time for discussion of the candidates. For instance, in the Purps threads, folks could nominate players … say Rosario, Matzek, Arenado, Blackmon (I believe he did receive a #1 rank from someone) Nicasio and Parker were nominated. Then discussion and voting begins. People register their vote and the winner (let’s say Rosario) takes the top spot, with the rest vying for #2 in another vote, And so it goes. It takes far longer for sure, but I believe the results would be more reliable, because the outliers are suppressed.
On the Nicasio front, I for one did have him as my top pitcher (and #4 overall just ahead of Matzek). I’ll admit to being persuaded some by his 2011 numbers, but also note that Ben Badler of Baseball America posted around that time that Nicasio had to be considered the Rockies’ best pitching prospect given both his performance and the struggles of the other top pitchers.
Arenado got the shaft in this one – I had him #2 overall and could easily make a case for him #1. Dropping him to 5 shows a real lack of understanding of age/position and performance over the span of a career.
I'm considering dropping the low and high ballot for each player on the next list (you know, like the Olympics)
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
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Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on Jun 18, 2011 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions

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