Rockies acquire Mark Ellis for Bruce Billings and a PTBNL or cash
by Rox Girl on Jun 30, 2011 12:59 PM MDT
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The Rockies have acquired second baseman Mark Ellis from Oakland for minor league right hand pitcher Bruce Billings and a player to be named later or cash considerations. Ellis has batted .217/.253/.290 this season but is an excellent defender and is a career .265/.331/.397 hitter who should benefit moving out of Oakland. The 34 year old Ellis has spent his entire career with Oakland, having his best seasons in 2005 and 2007, but hit .291/.358/.391 as recently as 2010. The Rockies revolving door at second base this season has seen Rockies hitters at the position batting a paltry .236/.291/.319, giving Ellis a very good shot of surpassing them with a typical Coors Field boost in production. Ellis is perhaps more known for his defensive wizardry, however, with a glove that has been worth about a win per full season over a replacement player according to both UZR and total zone.
Billings, who made his major league debut in 2011, has excelled since being moved to relief during the 2010 season, and with a solid slider and change-up should make an effective MLB middle reliever.
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I, for one, welcome our new 2B overlord...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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I'm ok with this move
Something had to be done and if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work.
Newton's laws say that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, proving he knew nothing about women.
And the price looks right
Billings wasn’t looking especially special as a BP prospect, and “PTBNL or Cash” sounds like a marginal prospect if we send another player back at all…
I just wish I hadn’t looked to see that Ellis was actually hitting better in Oakland than on the road this year (.192 road BA). But last year he hit .291 overall with a .739 OPS. I would be happy if he just got back to that level.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jun 30, 2011 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions
My only concern is that our RHP relief depth just became non-existant.
If we have an injury to Betancourt, Lindstrom, etc…we’re in serious trouble
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Or we could just let left-handed relievers pitch to right handed batters every now and again. I think Matt Reynolds could handle it.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Jun 30, 2011 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Word to this.
Kind of tired of Tracey’s insistence on R vs. R and L vs. L. It doesn’t always need to be followed so explicitly.
by blooming rock on Jun 30, 2011 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions
When will Daley be back?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Jun 30, 2011 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Not right away.
He hasn’t even gone on rehab assignment yet.
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by Greg Stanwood on Jun 30, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions
what difference will that make?
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Move over Mike Lansing, Jose Ortiz, Jose Lopez and about 20 other guys.....
…another easily forgettable 2B has arrived.
Today’s Rockpile: “The Rockies need a better second baseman!”
/Rockies get a better second baseman.
“This second baseman isn’t good enough! Where’s Robinson Cano?”
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Jun 30, 2011 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Or to look at it another way....
Rockies bury promising young 2B behind 34 year old guy who’s hitting .217.
Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first call ‘promising’.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Using this logic....
We should sit Charlie Blackmon now because he’s struggled lately and replace him with Jay Payton.
I’m all for upgrading a position, but this guy? Nah.
Got it. What he did over a full season last year doesn’t matter. Everything is in a vacuum. If you don’t think it’s an upgrade, you’ve never seem Mark Ellis play.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Look, I don't hate Mark Ellis.
But when you’re 34 and you’ve just lost the starting job you’ve held for a decade, that’s usually a sign that the end of the road is in sight. Even so, sure, I hope he can still produce.
But my real point is this: Chris Nelson can be a dynamic contributor to this team for years to come. But we’ll never know that if he ends up sitting. Let him have a couple of months to strut his stuff. There’s an opportunity cost at work here that bothers me, that’s all.
Nothing in Chris Nelson’s history as a minor leaguer suggests he’s capable of being anything like a ‘dynamic contributor’. Nothing in his brief big league history, either, save a couple of hard hit home runs.
Ellis is, if nothing else, a VAST defensive upgrade. At worst, we return to the baseline performance at the position we got from Clint Barmes last year, on both sides of the ball. That’s not good, but it’s better, and I’m more willing to bet on Ellis improving on his current numbers than I am on Chris Nelson being the answer.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
You might be right, but....
If you’re willing to write off a #1 draft pick in favor of a guy nearing the end, then where does that leave us in terms of the position? Right back at square one.
Me, I’m not nearly ready to kiss Nelson off that easily. I want him given a chance.
That all said, if Ellis can come in here and perform well, than I’m more than cool with him. I’m just not super -optimistic. But I’ll gladly be wrong.
Actually, DLR was significantly worse in the years immediately prior to becoming a Rockie
DLR, 2005-07: .9 fWAR
Ellis, 2008-10: 7.7 fWAR
DLR was significantly worse than most pitchers on the planet before he got to the Rockies.
But you weren’t using that qualifier, were you?
I fail to see your point
The recent histories of the players prior to joining the Rockies shows that Ellis has more to offer than anyone thought DLR did at the time of acquisition.
And given that Reynolds was a first round pick, the Reynolds:DLR::Nelson:Ellis comparison leads me to wonder how many starts you’d have given Greg Reynolds in 2008?
So wait.....
A 34 year old guy has more potential upside than a flamethrowing lefty who had previously failed to find his stuff?
And, to my other point, I don’t think anyone (including me) who saw DLRs first few starts w/ the Rox would have ever imagined him working out here.
Which shows how silly it is to write off talented young guys based on limited exposure.
Like, say, Chris Nelson.
Chris Nelson, frankly, will NEVER be a dynamic contributor
He’s a horrible defender by most metrics, and he doesn’t get on base. He is literally Clint Barmes with bad defense. He will never be good. I’m sorry. I used to like his upside, but it’s minimal right now.
Mark Ellis has gotten on base throughout his career, and plays plus defense.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Chris Nelson has played in 41 ML games and has 108 ABs
It’s absurd to write him off.
I'm not writing him off based on his ML career
And I could care less about his draft position. He has never shown on-base ability, and he plays very poor defense.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Nelson will get on base more eventually.
It’s a late blossoming skill for him. Not as much as Ellis, I think (although it’s a pretty significant caveat you leave out “has gotten on base throughout his career except for this season,”) but I think Nelson’s capable of a 7% walk rate, approximately double what he has now. He’s not quite as derelict in recognizing and laying off offspeed pitches as he has been thus far.
If his stuff smells like poo, and hurts the Rockies chances of getting back to the top of division
where does that leave you? The trade-off to letting Nelson play can go both ways, and the (temporary) hold on his development is worth the opportunity to play a guy who, while not having played well this year, could aid the team’s recovery while they’re still only two games under .500.
The cost to not playing Nelson is relatively minimal compared to the cost of carrying an offensive black hole in the lineup during a competitive season.
There are eight teams over .500 in front of us and two more teams with records similar to the Rockies.
I would not exactly call us competitive at the moment. We just lost a series at home to our american league doppleganger to a player we gave up on close to a decade ago. I think this is a sideways move that offers sideways help. I rather get younger than older at this point and try to gather more young guys with an upside who don’t fit where they are now.
I’d rather move Spilly and Twiggy and Stew and Dex to try to get more talent here. I’d listen to offers on Hammels and CDI If it got me the right guys. I’m not mad at anybody or after anybody’s scalp. It’s not about rearanging the deck chairs as surving to make drydock.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
In the NL West this season, .500 is competitive.
It doesn’t matter how many teams are ahead of us to determine that, it matters if they can be beat in the time left, and thanks to injuries to the Giants and questions about the legitimacy of the D-backs, I think the answer is pretty clearly still yes.
The trade may be a sideways step if Ellis is the player he has been so far this season, but the experience with position players coming out of Oakland is almost universally positive. Jason Giambi was batting .193 for the A’s when the Rockies acquired him, he’s been a .256 hitter for us since and his power (which was supposedly shot, if you recall) and OBP have come back just as strong. It could be a similar case where getting a guy after the slump gives a benefit to the Rockies. If not, there’s still time to make another move or two.
After saying something similar and going way too far out on a limb with Jose Lopez, I’m definitely more gunshy about the move this time around, since it’s essentially the same deal, give up a minor league RHP with a limited future in Colorado for a bounceback 2B candidate. There’s an obvious downside, and two moves in a row like this without a payoff would look really bad for O’Dowd, so more’s at stake here, but I see the F.O. reasoning. Ellis may be an improvement and in a vacuum, this is an okay buy low opportunity, it’s just the flub on the Lopez deal adds to the urgency to come up with a winner this time.
I've said before I think we have a better shot at the division than the wild card... I also think a lot of this is out of our control with the current roster.
MY inner GM says sell because this cast is not going to jell. It’s no one person’s or position’s fault. I am thankful Todd’s been healthy: what are we going to do now if he goes down with Wiggy the only 3b? Call Nelson back to be the 3b? Or play Ellis ther and be back to Jonny playing everyday again at 2b? Or 3b?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
We're even worse off if Tulo goes down...
But I believe that when a small to mid-market team starts worrying too much about events yet to happen, it leads to the kind of perpetual rebuild scenario you find in Pittsburgh or Kansas City. I’m guessing that if Todd goes down, the Rockies shit Wiggy to first and recall Stewart before they really want to. It possibly puts the kibitz on a trade scenario involving him, which could hurt, but it’s something that the Rockies should deal with then, not now. Play for today, not tomorrow during the season and then fix the future once it’s done.
ehhhhhhhhhh I don't know if I'd call Mark Ellis "better" than anyone on the roster.
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Positive defense (career +8.2 UZR/150 at 2B) and average bat (career 96 wRC+)
is hardly easily forgettable. And those career numbers hold up over the last three years. He’s played good to great defense at 2B, and posted a 104 wRC+ last year.
Four scenarios, none of which is really worse than the current situation: If Ellis plays well and the Rockies get back in it, Nelson may have to continue sitting. If Ellis plays well, but the Rockies don’t get back in it, they can spin Ellis off for more than the cost of acquisition and give Nelson room to grow. If Ellis doesn’t play well and the Rockies get back in it, Nelson’s still probably out of luck. And, finally, if Ellis doesn’t play well and the Rockies don’t get back in it, Nelson is probably given room to grow. Nelson should get more time at some point, but he hasn’t sparkled with the bat or glove so far.
That said, there is a little roster redundancy with the move.
Anyway, before this goes too far out on a tangent.....
My primary point is this:
“meh”
That’s probably all I should have written. “Meh” He’s fine, he’s OK, he’ll probably upgrade things a bit. But all in all, “meh”. It’s not likely to impact the way this season’s going.
So sure, we gave up little for him and he’s been pretty good in the past, so OK.
But ultimately, for me? “meh”
I think he could impact the season,
I think it might be an underrated move, but I definitely think that there’s more coming. This is a part of a bigger shift.
True
And that’s what I’m waiting for. That said, O’D doesn’t really have a history of super-splashy mid-season moves. It’s likely to be more things like this. And I’m not sure if minor tinkering will really make things happen the way we hope.
But we’ll see…..
What could DOD try to get?
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Jun 30, 2011 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Part of the problem is....
I’m not sure he (or anyone really) understands exactly what’s behind this team’s play. It’s like some mystery illness that requires exploratory surgery. So it would be foolish, I suppose, for him to give up bigtime assets for solutions that may, in fact, not be solutions.
That said, we’ll see a veteran starting pitcher here at some point. (Hey, how about Jeff Francis, The Return?) and a right handed stick to perhaps upgrade over Spilly. But it’s all just a guess.
Jeff Francis: Do not want.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Jun 30, 2011 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, I'm probably talking more with my heart than my head, but....
you could do worse.
Another starting pitcher of the Wandy Rodriguez/Hiroki Kuroda type of value. I think it's been the priority for awhile now
There’s too much smoke in that direction to make me think that there’s nothing going on, like the scouting of Kuroda’s last start. I also don’t know if Ellis is the last position player the Rockies will go for if Blackmon doesn’t start producing more soon.
They need to find a Reggie Sanders kind of guy
Remember him? Every year, there’d be rumors that the Rox would pick him up and every year he’d go somewhere else and produce nice numbers. Just a power hitting journeyman OF’er who did exactly what he was expected to do. Jay Payton was kinda that guy for a little while.
I’m too lazy busy to sift through rosters to figure out who his modern day equivalents are, but there’s gotta be guys like this who could be had.
That guy, from the right side of the plate, would be a nice addition.
Something like that. While I could see another SP added before the ASB
If the Rockies were to pursue OF help I’m guessing it would be at the last minute, somebody a non-contender decides to dump for limited cost savings, which every time I look for a possibility, I get distracted by Michael Cuddyer, who’d be somewhat ideal if the Twins asking price in talent is reasonable.
I really wanted Cuddyer early in the offseason, before I realized his often had already been picked up
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 30, 2011 6:09 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I option forget these things as well
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 6:15 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
well duh
haven’t you read all of PHLP’s absurd cryptic posts?
we’re CLEARLY missing the bombshell.
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions
.331 career OBP? At 2B?
/swoons
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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tell me
why do they need a .217 hitting second baseman when they have several other guys who can hit bettter than that?
Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com
www.minorleagueball.com
because those several other guys
appear to be playing positions that aren’t 2b?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
by Resolution on Jun 30, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
#Giambiforsecond
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Jun 30, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions
too easy of a blanket statement to make
Over his last four years of play, he’s a 89 wRC+ bat.
He’s also a 27.9 UZR 2B.
I’d like to believe that he could just regress to the mean in that regard, but his career .291 BABIP has never really been attained. He’s either been like 30 points above it or 30 points below. Right now he is 50 points below, his LD% is at a career low, his BB% is at a career low, his ISO is at a career low, his wRC+ is at a career low, and his BB/K is at a career low.
Things that aren’t at a career low/high/whichever is the worse one: K%, IFFB%.
This is quite literally the definition of “buy low”.
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Now lets get Mike Cameron
for the league minimum!!!1
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Good stopgap until…#FreeThomasField
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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pffft he looks like another random Mark Ellis type
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Really?
TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Quick Blog on #Rockies’ new second baseman Mark Ellis.. Will start tomorrow and hit second: http://bit.ly/kEdIv8
PLEASE. PLAY GOOD HITTERS IN IMPORTANT SPOTS PLEASE
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Uh. what?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
We all know why he's in the 2 hole
He lays down one hell of a sac bunt that Ellis. Seems like a Tracy-type of player.
good god
you’re probably right.
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Tracey needs his two hole to be a RH bat, otherwise "gasp" the Rockies might have two LH bats in a row.
Heaven forbid that ever happens.
by blooming rock on Jun 30, 2011 2:21 PM MDT up reply actions
You know what this means?
we have to acknowledge that PHLP actually had an inside source and his cryptic messages might have actually meant something. Timing is just too close to be coincidental. Dammit.
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this wasn't unexpected at all
Renck has reported us looking at 2B for a week. Look at Tuesday’s rockpile. I mentioned Ellis as a possibility.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 30, 2011 1:31 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
PHLP just said in the game thread that he hasn't been proclaiming the arrival of Mark Ellis
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Jun 30, 2011 1:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Huh. Well, that's the 2nd time today I've been completely wrong :-)
I should start predicting horrible things for the Rockies now….
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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Hopefully he means a new pitcher!
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and lost season.
Proud member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power!
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis
I was unaware that PR readers didn't believe that he had an inside source on the matter.
He does/did, he is an employee of an MLB team and has friends still in the biz where they would know. He’s just insufferable about it.
by Rox Girl on Jun 30, 2011 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
SO SPEAKETH THE PROPHET
AND THE COUNTING SHALL BE THREE…FIVE IS RIGHT OUT.
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
HALLOWED ARE THE ORI
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
That's what I think too
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
rox like the idea of some power at 2B
too much to bring back Carroll. I’m ok with this acquisition (we shall see mode).
The rox sure like to wheel and deal with the AL West don’t they? :)
Showing extreme symptoms of Rocky Mountain Baseball Fever since 1993.
We'll see how it works out.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Jun 30, 2011 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
renck suggested he is still a target for some reason
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jun 30, 2011 1:38 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
GOOD.
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
I too, wanted Carroll.
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Ellis could be the best 2B the Rockies have ever had
He’s recently had years that would rank as the best.
The best 2B the Rockies ever had was Jose Lopez.....
in 2006 when he hit 25 HR and drove in 96 runs.
Unfortunately, he wasn’t on the Rockies at that time, which is what he has in common with Mark Ellis’ past seasons.
eh, give me Mike Lansing's 1997
If we’re talking about best seasons by a Rockies 2B while not on the Rockies, I think that one has the rest beat.
Herrera is 2 for 2
who needs this Mark Ellis guy? April Herrera is back and we’re going 12-3 over the next 15! All you need is a little faith in the Answer and look what happens!
Half of this game is 90% mental.
by christianrockie on Jun 30, 2011 2:18 PM MDT reply actions
Don't mind this trade
Billings wasn’t Major League caliber.
So we try out another 2B. OK. Sooner or later, one has got to work out.
2011 Rockies -- what the hell?
worth a shot...
provided the PTBNL isn’t anyone of much value.
I do find it ironic that the Rockies 2B collective OPS of .610 is 23rd in MLB—and they trade for the back up 2B from one of the 7 teams with worse output from the position.
I love this plan!
I’m thrilled to be a part of it!
As his biggest fan around here...
I wish Bruce well in Oakland (and hopefully, San Jose.) One last time: Go Bruce!
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
Congratulations on picking up a truly excellent person
Your Rockies could not ask for a better teammate. As an A’s fan, it hurts to see him go (although Jemile Weeks has clearly passed him by, at least with the bat), but I’m glad he’s been sent to a team who will let him start, and more importantly, is not in the AL West, or Boston, or NY.
Now, please do us a favor and use Ellis to beat the living crap out of the Gnats during the 2nd half of the season.
I don't feel that I'm feeling your feelings, about these feelings that you feel.
by doctorK on Jun 30, 2011 10:34 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
we promise to do our best on the last part
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by Andrew Martin on Jun 30, 2011 11:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Rockies are really pushing that Rapid City connection
First there was all the promotions for Mt. Rushmore, and now they trade for the best player to come out of the area.
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