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Wednesday Rockpile: Mr. O'Dowd, Please Don't Trade Ubaldo Jimenez

ROCKPILE OVERFLOW

Boy, it sure was fun to see the Colorado Rockies beat the snot out of a likely playoff team last night, wasn't it? Making it all the sweeter was the fact that the man on the mound for the Rockies, Ubaldo Jimenez, has been the subject of so many trade rumors of late.  In yesterday's Rockpile the majority of the sentiment seemed to be that the Rockies should trade Jimenez if a great package of prospects were to present itself. Since my opinion is somewhat contrary to this, I felt that it was only fair that I gave you my take on the situation.

Before I get into it, it is important to note that while Ubaldo Jimenez is my favorite player on the Rockies, most of my reasons for keeping him are economic. I look at baseball and the Rockies in a way that I believe is different from the majority of fans -- that is, I am not overly attracted to individual players but rather the team's success at the expense of players.

If other players can better help the team, I say trade the fan favorite (yes, even Todd Helton) for them. I advocated this with Brad Hawpe (and Aaron Cook for that matter) when he was having an All-Star campaign in 2009, and I would advocate trading Huston Street or Ty Wigginton now if Colorado can get good value for him. In my opinion, this isn’t the case with Jimenez.

In short, the Rockies should not be trading Ubaldo Jimenez for a package even as good as the four Yankees prospects that have been floated out as possibilities (and reportedly as Dan O'Dowd's asking price for Jimenez): Jesus Montero (C/1B), Dellin Betances (RHP), Manny Banuelos (LHP), and Ivan Nova (RHP). Why is this? For me, it all comes back to surplus value.

Beyond the Boxscore's JD Sussman makes the Ubaldo surplus value argument skillfully and in great detail, I don't need to rehash that here much. What I do need to emphasize is that the projected value for the quartet of Yankees prospects (even assuming the absolute best about their "prospect status") is around $66 million (I'm considering Nova a "B" pitching prospect), while Jimenez's midline surplus value as a 4-5 WAR pitcher over the next 3.5 years at his contract hovers between $75-100 million. This type of value proposition (in which Colorado receives less projected value than they lose) might make sense if the Rockies were striving for short-term playoff glory, but they obviously would not be in this situation. It  just doesn't make sense to me.

Okay, so you might have a higher opinion of the Yankees' prospects. That's fine, many do. My point is that the likelihood that the Rockies replace Jimenez's value over the next 3.5 years with those four prospects (over their Rockies career) is quite low. That's reason one why trading Ubaldo is the wrong move.

Star-divide

Reason two is that concentrating all of that surplus value on one player (as the Rockies would be doing with Jimenez) is more efficient and valuable than if the value was spread over four players. In other words, in the three extra roster spots theoretically occupied by these top shelf Yankees prospects, Colorado would instead fill them with the likes of Christian Friedrich, Nolan Arenado, and Chad Bettis -- players with considerable surplus value potential in their own right.

Reason three for not trading Jimenez is his singular talent for propelling white spheres in a forward motion. Top of the rotation starters are exactly the type of players that the Rockies will never acquire in free agency because their cost is so prohibitive that only a select few are in the price range. One might argue, therefore, that developing your own prospects is the only way for a mid-market team like the Rockies to get such a player.

Wouldn't trading for Banuelos, Betances, and Nova be the right move then? In this case I say no, because not only do the Rockies have a top of the rotation starter in his physical prime, they have a pitcher perfect for their hitter-friendly ballpark that is signed cheaply for the next few years, a player that by all accounts is an exceptionally hard worker with a great attitude, and a player that obviously wants to stay in Colorado long-term -- a player who might even be willing to accept something of a hometown discount if and when his current deal runs out.

I mean, I haven't even mentioned the cost of the negative PR and (somewhat) decreased attendance that would accompany this move -- whether it be from people upset at losing Ubaldo or from those upset at the team making a rebuilding move. Jimenez has been a huge part of the Rockies' marketing campaign as well as a fixture in national advertising campaigns. There's a huge amount of intangible value to the Rockies simply to be lodged in the consideration set of MLB fans, and a Jimenez trade would keep Colorado out of sight and out of mind.

Jimenez is the greatest pitcher in Rockies history already, and I'd wager that he's going to be Colorado's best pitcher for a considerable period of time. A rotation headed by Jimenez, a healthy Jorge De La Rosa, and Jhoulys Chacin is a fearsome rotation, especially in the playoffs -- and it is one that is easily possible for the next three years. That's plenty of time in which to fix the hitting holes on this team. I say, leave the pitching more or less as is.

My philosophy in baseball is that amassing the most talent (and utilizing that talent properly) will give you the best chance of winning. Ubaldo Jimenez is a supremely talented pitcher, and I firmly believe that you pay for and retain talent, especially talent with a proven track record at the major league level.

Ubaldo's raw talent is singular, his character is unassailable, and his desire is powerful. I want Ubaldo Jimenez to stay in a Colorado Rockies uniform for as long as possible, and I feel like trading him now would be a terrible mistake.

Off-topic.

Links

It's All About the Money, a Yankees blog, examines some common Ubaldo fallacies -- in other words, why opposing fans may be seriously underestimating his ability.

Dave Cameron of Fangraphs shows that Ubaldo has been pretty consistent when compared to his peers.

Comment 1284 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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someone linked in Mon or Tue rockpile

Definitely a cool resource

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 20, 2011 7:41 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

if only that were true

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 20, 2011 7:59 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

Burks went on to post a .994 OPS with 55 HRs for the Giants.
San Francisco Giants (view 2 trades)
   July 31, 1998: The Colorado Rockies traded Ellis Burks to the San Francisco Giants for a player to be named later, Darryl Hamilton and Jim Stoops. The San Francisco Giants sent Jason Brester (minors) (August 18, 1998) to the Colorado Rockies to complete the trade.

by Charlie77 on Jul 20, 2011 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

Wow.

You made my argument for me. Dollars to donuts you don’t get trollrolled like I was for saying the same damn thing.

Nice post, Jeff.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 7:47 AM MDT reply actions  

It's Aberle

He’ll always get roasted because he’s the cause of this team’s problems.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

My skin is made of adamantine. Bring it on.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

To be fair, it's really only his fault that we haven't won on a Sunday since 1812.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

...and this year

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
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by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

and that we would never fall below .500

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Wait a minute.... I am pretty sure they picked up a win somewhere between 1846 to 1848

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

that was actually on a holiday, not a Sunday

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nope.

I still disagree. I just feel like everything was said yesterday.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

A lot was said yesterday...but nothing by me!

I tend to miss out on Rockpile conversations while I’m at work, so this is the only chance I have to make an argument

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think what I'd like to hear is...

if we decide to shun a major, farm-system-restocking deal, where do we go from here?

The farm is drying up, and we won’t be anywhere closer to being competitive next year unless we make a free agent splash. That splash is highly unlikely.

Street, Wigginton, and Helton are not bringing us any good value.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

I really think that people are underestimating Colorado's major league talent...

Colorado will be competitive next year with their current roster and better luck. If they want to push over that competitive barrier, go ahead and see what you can get for one of the non-CarGo outfielders. As for the minor leagues, with as many decent prospects as we have, I think that the probability of getting a few major league regulars out of the talent in the system now is pretty high.

I guess I’m just not that worried about the future — one that includes Jimenez, that is.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:15 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

That was weird

I was just about to reply in the very same way. Look how many guys on the current roster are underperforming. You could argue that Dex and Stew just aren’t that good, but do you think Tulo and CarGo are playing anywhere near their potential, not to mention Iannetta has more as well. Who is really outperforming their current talent, maybe Helton. I just think this team has nowhere to go but up, and DLR is a much bigger loss than we are realizing.

I also think our farm system is not as “dried up” as you are saying it is. We could use some new talent in the system, but a player here and there that might come from a deal for Street, Betancourt, or even Wiggy could help, and still not tear up the team as much as the loss of Ubaldo, the only real ace the Rox have ever had.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

I made this point yesterday

Our top three performed off the charts last year, giving performances they are unlikely to reproduce.

We finished with 83 wins.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:22 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I understand, but I don't think the team

outperformed last year, the team was decimated with injuries last year, do you really believe a healthy team last year would have won 83 games performing at absolute peak? Thats a bit disingenuous.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

How long can you bet on a healthy team

and top stars performing at a high level?

It’s becoming apparent the supporting cast simply isn’t as good (or consistent) as we thought.

It takes a lot of luck for a team to make the playoffs. It seems we’re banking on above average luck with the current group of players.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

I would argue that we are banking on

a lot of things going right in making this deal as well. We have absolutely no idea what we would get in this deal, none. None of these guys have done anything, other than Nova, in a big league uniform. We are just hoping these prospects turn into something. I can agree that maybe the team needs some tweaking, but I will never agree that Ubaldo is the way to do it.

Sorry, aces are just too hard to find, and to have one in Colorado is even more difficult. If this were a position player that are basically a dime a dozen for the Rox, then I would be more agreeable, but not an ace pitcher. I was all for the Holliday deal, but not this one. Especially as Jeff points out, because he seems very likely to re-sign with us.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

the argument boils down to:

Do you think the current club is talented enough to consistently compete for the playoffs?

If so, you stay the course and hope for better luck/consistency.

If not, you have to look for ways of infusing the team with talent. As a mid market, we are limited in our options.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

I guess I fall

somewhere in the middle in that I do believe we could use some talent infusion, but not so much that it would absolutely take Ubaldo to do it.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

The question is, where else do you get impact talent?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

Any chance the Rockies can wait for it to develop?

Guys in their system that are having rough years this year might break through just as Ubaldo did.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

but there's no 4 prospects at equivalent positions to those in the yankee deal in our system

especially when you consider that we would play montero at 1B, a position we literally have no plan at beyond hoping todd keeps it up

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thats the issue

I don’t think we need a crazy amount of impact players. I think the guys I talked about dealing above could bring back a player or 2 that would help. The other issue I have is as I said, we don’t know for sure what these guys will provide, they aren’t proven players, so its not as if this trade w/ the Yanks would be risk free be a certain win for the Rox.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

Trading Street would give us

…other relievers.

Trading Smith would give us

..other B/C level prospects.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Why would Street

only bring back another reliever? You are absolutely proof positive that we couldn’t get a starter back for a deal with Street. The Phils might be desparate enough at some point. I’m not saying it would equal the haul, for Ubaldo, I’m not that foolish. I just don’t think its worth our ace.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

I brought up what we got back from trading Fuentes yesterday

Which was zilch, even though we had him on the block. Smith too isn’t likely to bring back the value we’d get by just letting him walk in FA and picking up the compensatory draft picks.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

And look what Francisco Cordero got the Rangers in 2006

Nelson Cruz. It wasn’t a one for one deal, the Rangers gave up three other guys, but they also got back Carlos Lee before he was useless. It can happen. It varies from season to season. 2008 was a bad year to shop a closer. 2006 was a great one. Point is, it’s not impossible to get elite talent for a closer if the right teams are in contention.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

haha the Twins

traded Wilson Ramos for Matt Capps! I laughed my ass off at all my Twins fan friends….Matt freaking capps for wilson ramos, dumb trade

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

As a Twins fan

That deal sucked from the start.

by webgem14 on Jul 20, 2011 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yes it did, but it's also proof positive...

…that you can actually get a legit player for a late inning bullpen arm, if the team needing the closer needs one badly enough.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

if the arm is cheap and the talent has a superstar signed to a 10 year deal blocking him....

it’s a very rare scenario, and one that’s incredibly unlikely to repeat itself.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

I keep hearing "unlikely this" and "unlikely that"

When a little while ago it was “it never happens”.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

it never happens, except for when Nathan goes down with TJ surgery

and you have Joe Mauer on your roster.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

And Craig Kimbrel can blow his UCL tomorrow

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

so can ubaldo

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

irrelevant to a discussion about trading our closer.

so can Betances
so can Nova
so can the other B-whatever his name is

feels like you’re trolling. I’m not biting, sorry. Sun’s out, and I’ve got a ticket in Row 1 today.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

I never said that it never happens.

I said that it won’t happen now. Everything always happens at least once in baseball. Even the Rockies will eventually win the World Series.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

See there you go

And that was a bit of a special situation because Nathan was hurt, but it’s still the case that decent closers who would only be setup men for contenders sometimes bring back great talent. You think the Phillies might be interested in Street? (Not that their farm system has anything left)

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

also special because Capps was relatively cheap in salary

Street is not. It could happen, but that’s a lot more luck than skill involved and not really a proactive way of making the team better.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

At least you acknowledge

That at multiple points in recent history, a “meh” closer has brought back elite talent though. It happens. A team like the Rockies shouldn’t COUNT on it happening, but it happens.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

It does.

But not in the next six months.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Street is not a closer for any contender.

No non-contender will want him. Setup men do not have high value. This trade would be similar to the K-Rod trade. Look at what the Mets got. It isn’t impressive.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

the Twins traded wilson ramos for Matt Capps…people get desperate

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great.

I’m talking about right now.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

yep, there was our one desperate team for a closer this year.

It seems to average a bit less than one each season. If a team does get desperate enough for Street that they’d be willing to offer us a positive talent exchange, I’d be much happier than if it happens with Ubaldo. I just think the latter’s more likely in this market.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Your logic is

flawless good sir.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

But St Louis doesn't need a closer!

Oh….

;-)

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I dunno; the Mets weren't to friendly to Motte last night.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Which was my point:

We’re not going to get quality talent for Huston Street.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Huston Street didn't have a $17m option.

That’s the biggest reason KRod was so cheap. Because nobody wanted to take on that risk, and you couldn’t renegotiate with him until after a trade. That hurt his return significantly.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Do you think the Rox get quality talent if they trade Huston Street?

Be honest. Don’t just say yes to disagree with me.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

"Quality talent", probably not

Maybe someone who can marginally help us, a B prospect with an average ceiling. Or maybe next year’s Mark Ellis.

He can get us more than KRod because his contract going forward is nothing like what KRod’s was in a position to be.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with that.

Definitely.

And that’s why I believe trading Huston Street is not going to make this team much better going forward.

I really want that contract off the books though because it isn’t the prettiest thing to look at.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

And that's where trading Street will help the most.

The 2012 payroll relief. His $7.5m won’t get us a top flight FA, but it will go a good way towards not limiting us to the Wiggys of the World.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right.

Street, Smith, Wigginton, Helton. None of these guys brings us much value.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Apparently by sending our impact talent to some other team.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

Of course I know that.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think we need to talk down to him

or anyone else, really

(yes, I see the irony)

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think we need to talk down to him

or anyone else, really

(yes, I see the irony)

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

twice?

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think everyone needs to talk down to me either

but that doesn’t seem to change much of anything.

/unpopular opinions are unpopular

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

it's a circular thing

doesn’t necessarily start with you or [them] but someone talks down to the other, the other talks down to someone, and it just keeps going in circles and makes debates less debatey and far more infuriating to read.

This is directed at just about everyone, including myself.

and again, yes, I see the irony in me of all people saying this

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's like a hipster saying that they don't follow trends.

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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I do, you guys might not. Agree to disagree

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Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think this sums up the last day or so

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Trading Ubaldo now is akin to

the same devastation the Broncos would have faced if they traded away Elway after the 55-10 super bowl loss to the 49ers. Traiding Ubaldo now would be a huge mistake.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

Would the Broncos have been in a better place the next 5 years?

(Analogy doesn’t quite work because NFL has no farm system)

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I understand the failed analogy

I don’t want to see Ubaldo go for nothing less than strip mining the Yankee’s or another’s farm system.

And unless it was a Hershel walker type of trade (and honestly I can’t think of 3 or 4 players together that I would have rather had than Elway in ’97and ’98), I would say no.

The problem with taking prospects for Ubaldo is that they are prospects. They have to go through our Farm system and learn from our coaches. Yes we have shown with Ubaldo, Chacin, and Nicasio that we have someone that knows how to develop talent at the [A]+ level (pardon my regex), but its a gamble. And if we trade with the Yankees, I see it as a gamble with the house, and odds favor the house.

We also are forgetting about the Rockies ability to scout and sign latin players from their respective leagues (again Ubaldo, Chacin, and Nicasio are great examples of this). I think that we can replenish our farm system without breaking the bank by continuing to go that route.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

And that's what people are missing

On the slight chance Ubaldo gets traded, it would be for nothing less than a strip mining of another team’s top talent.

There’s no other way a deal even happens.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

My point is that I don't know what that "strip-mining" package will look like.

It doesn’t look like the Yankees’ package to me

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

The more I read, the more I agree with this.

I’m still at a point where

1) I love love love Ubaldo and his filthy pitches and his work ethic and his even-keeled humility and his insanely cheap contract and his role as mentor to younger pitchers

2) I’m worried that the Rockies might not be as good as we thought (Muzia’s point)

3) I don’t think the Yankees prospects are worth Ubaldo (the BtB argument, combined with Jeff’s argument)

So I’m willing to entertain the possibility that Ubaldo gets traded (especially if it helps with some of the Rockies’ big problems: for 2012, a RH impact bat that plays corner outfield or 2B or 3B and enough pitching to both make up for losing Ubaldo and missing JDLR for part of the season; and for longer term, someone to take over 1B when Todd’s back gives out for the last time). It doesn’t sound like the proposed trade with the Yankees would be adequate. I don’t know if other teams would strip-mine their farm systems (and whether a strip-mine would provide enough value – isn’t the Rangers’ system depleted from getting Cliff Lee last year?), but if they would, I wouldn’t be opposed.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rangers still have a top 5 farm system

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

well Top 10, KC TB Atl NY Tor

I guess it depends if you count the callups this year or not

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think as many are missing that point as we might think

As it is we get more people coming in with their opinion.

The reason I like participating here is that there is such a high chance of discussions coming back to civility with people realizing that they are no longer seeing the forest beyond the trees.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

No one opposing you in the argument is missing that

No one on thinks that DOD is on the verge of getting back a couple B+ prospects and a bag of baseballs for Ubaldo or that anyone on Purple Row would be OK with it. Can we please drop the “oh, the people who disagree with me just don’t understand my point!” nonsense?

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

No

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jul 20, 2011 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jimenez is not Elway.

Nor does he have the same impact as a QB. So, no.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

They both sorta have big teeth.

And Jimenez appears to be a much nicer person.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

we're not the 98 yankees or 01 mariners

and we never will be, and it’s disingenuous to suggest that all it takes for us to flatout dominate is for cargo, ubaldo and tulo to play like they did in 2010 AND have everyone step up around them

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is all hypothetical though.

The performance since 2008 has us at 295-288. That’s .506. This is not competitive.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's enough talent for us to be "in the hunt" every year. If we get a couple of breaks, we're in the postseason

That’s competitive to me

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

that's not competitive enough for me.

The Rays do better. Worse, the Diamondbacks, Padres and Giants are doing as much or better.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

I have faith (seriously) that the talent level is higher than .506 for this team though.

I was just commenting that .506 gives you a decent chance with some luck of making the postseason.

Coming into this year, I thought this team had the talent to win 90+ games. No, they won’t do that this year, but I still think that the talent is there going forward.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

What's our record the past 3 seasons?

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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Rays do better *today*

How competitive have they been over the balance of 1997-2011? And how much longer will they stay competitive with no attendance?

The Padres are not doing better. And the d’backs? Sure, they have a competitive year or two surrounded on all sides by 102-loss seasons.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Dbacks are very close to owning this division for the forseeable future

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

You lay the terms and I'll agree to the bet

No way with San Fran and LA in the division will the DBacks ever “own the division for the foreseeable future”. I don’t care how good their farm system is.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Funny thing about baseball is...

…they actually play the games before that’s actually decided.

The Dodgers were supposed to own this division with all their young talent. They’ve won the division once in that 3-4 year period, and are on their way back to 5th place.

The Rockies were supposed to own this division the last couple of years, and we see where that’s gone.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yet we're going to stay the course

even though playing the games has led to a .500 team over the last four years?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

The probably also play

the Giants, D-Backs, and Brewers 25 times too.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Getting my butt kicked?

No. But our combined record against the three teams above is 9-18.

I’m being realistic. I was very optimistic. Now, I’m being realistic.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Keep it up

We all have to give up on the season for the streak to begin.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Dodgers are a very poor supporting point to your argument and you know it.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

Um, no.

Kemp
Kershaw
Ethier
Broxton
Loney
Billingsly

This was supposed to be the core of a team that was going to flat out own the division. The McCourt’s situation is not relevant. This team was supposed to pwn, and writers everywhere pointed out as such.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

The McCourt's situation isn't relevant?

You have to be joking.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Dodgers were supposed to own this division from like 2008 to now

The McCourt’s situation now is not relevant to their 2008-2009 seasons…and it’s also not relelvant to the fact that Loney turned out to be crap, Broxton broke, Kershaw and Billingsly both still require too many bullpen innings behind them, etc.

In other words, this talent was supposed to pwn the division. But it did not. So to just assume Arizona’s going to pwn the next few years is just rife with presumptions that do not nearly always pan out.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

So we won't make any assumptions

Who knows, everyone might end up sucking on the Rockies in the next 2 months and the team has to be blown up!

Or they might end up all having career years and the Rockies somehow win 96 games!

But we don’t know! So let’s just watch the games and not make any moves regarding the future club because forecasts might be inaccurate.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's a wee bit hyperbolic

No one said anything about standing pat. There’s room between standing pat and moving the only true ace your franchise has ever had, for players who won’t really impact the big league club until 2013 at the earliest, even if they meet their projected ceilings.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well yes....

…but here we’re saying if we don’t trade Ubaldo we’re not going to be competitive until 2014-2015…

…when trading Ubaldo for this package isn’t going to make us competitive in 2012 or possibly 2013 either, so where’s the benefit?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Rockies chances in that 2014 to 2015 frame should in the most likely outcomes be considerably higher with an Ubaldo trade than without. Given the amount of near MLB high quality players we’d be talking about, there’s a very good chance that they would also improve our 2012 to 2013 outlook.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

I would like better than relying on luck to make the playoffs.

I’m not a Rockies-lifer, but my understanding of their history is that this has pretty much always been the way they have operated. They float around .500, and occasionally get lucky. These occasions happened more recently in the last five years, but this might have just been good luck. I’d hate to hit another string of bad luck in which Tulo and Cargo become Heltons.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

I can't believe you are saying this

the only teams that aren’t relying on a pretty high level of luck (being injury free) would be the Yanks, Sox, and maybe the Phils now. We will never be that.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

Which is exactly why maintaining the status quo is no longer good enough

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

Because it's fair to expect us to become the Yanks, Sox, or maybe the Phils.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree with this completely.

And I would love to see any data that reflects how 27 of the 30 teams in baseball just depend on luck.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

Kind of putting an impossible task on him....

…it would be like me saying to you that I would like to see you show me the data that 27 of the 30 teams do not depend on some luck.

"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!

by bonaire on Jul 20, 2011 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I could do that.

By demonstrating organizational plans.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Let's start with the Marlins, then.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Actually the pre-Loria Marlins are an excellent example.

Realizing that they couldn’t maintain a competitive team for the long haul, they focused on developing key players, then loading up on FAs to make a run.

In 1997, this resulted in a championship. Then, they repeated this process to win in 2003 by acquiring players to develop by getting rid of what they had little chance of holding onto.

Following 2003, they started to try this process again, but it was derailed by the foolish Loria ownership. So, instead of being on schedule for being competitive right now, they are inconsistently floundering.

There was very little luck in either of their two championships, nor in where they are today.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

And in between 1998-2002, they were a crap crap crap club

which became unwatchable and unattendable.

And is also pretty irrelevant, because that’s not their current organizational plan. How are they planning on being successful now without luck?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

Actually,

I’m arguing that that was exactly their plan. And they weren’t a crap, crap club from 2000–2002. They improved year-over-year although the record fluctuates around .475.

That was part of their plan. Reload to be competitive in several years.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'll take our .516 over that .475 any time.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

i'll take their 2 championships over our 0

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Trading your established MLB #1 starter

For prospects (and Ivan Nova) counts as relying on luck to make the playoffs as well. I think that’s pretty obvious.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

And I think that's the crux of this whole debate

People like me are bearish on prospects. We say “Whoa, hey, I dunno, prospects (especially pitching prospects) flame out all the time, I really don’t like the risk here…” And people like you are very bullish on prospects. You’re thrilled at the thought of getting the Bs. “Hey, we could get the Bs!” you say. “Think of all the talent! Think of how much better we’ll be in a few years!”

I’m not saying the people like me are guaranteed to be right, but I’m certainly much more comfortable on this side of the fence.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

This isn't it at all.

This is why Muzia is talking about how people are missing the point. Being bearish on prospects is not the point at all,

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

If the point of cheering for a team

Is to see the MLB level affiliate succeed over time, then…. yes. Yes it is.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not trying to tell you what your point is

But it’s painfully obvious at this point that mine isn’t getting across so I’m doing my best to boil it down and make it clear. The disconnect between us is definitely significant. I’m trying to bridge it.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

I understand what you are saying...

I don’t think you’re getting what I am saying.

The crux of the argument isn’t prospects versus current players. It’s stay the course versus change the system.

I believe that RG, Muzia, and I are ready to change the system if a deal of that caliber comes along for Ubaldo.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's fine

I see what you’re saying there, and acknowledge it as a possible thing the team could do that would make some sense. What I can’t agree with in any way is the insinuation that with the team as it is, we’re merely relying on luck to make the playoffs, but if we trade Ubaldo for some prospects, that’s a much safer bet that has less to do with luck. Which if I understand things, is another of your points, and one I disagree with.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

It was actually Jeff who brought up luck.

I don’t think the Rockies are relying on luck, nor should they be.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

There's substantial risk on both sides

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yup I'm down with that point

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's why it is

stay the course or change. There isn’t a right answer, just preferences.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is what some of my original posts yesterday were about

“Think of all the talent we’re picking up! Look at all the talent!” That’s the rallying cry of many on your side of the argument. Yes, we’re getting talent back. But that talent is not in any way a safe bet to help the Colorado Rockies. It’s a safe bet to make the 2012 preview for the Drillers or the Sky Sox sound really awesome, but that’s about it for now. I have no idea how I can make this point any clearer.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think we're at a crossroads as a franchise right now

The past two years have been disappointing, and the question is can this current group contend long term?

We haven’t shown any signs of catching the Giants, and will be passed up by Arizona in the next two years on a talent level in most scenarios. What then?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

We sell the team to

Albuquerque.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Al?

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

Signing bonuses aren't what they used to be.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

I totally agree

That it’s a crappy situation. And holding Ubaldo involves risk too, just as trading him for guys who aren’t MLB ready is. But I think it’s the less risky move.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's inherently less risky

Ubaldo is one player. If he busts, he can be replaced by one player (though obviously not at the same level). You’re trading him for four players. If they bust, they have to be replaced by four players to keep the strength in the system. That’s a demonstrably harder thing to do.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

ha

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

I might not be explaining myself well

But analyzing and managing risk is what I do.

You’re diluting the value, and exposing yourself a greater chance of one of those players busting. There

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

This assumes though that the four players involved can only equal Jimenez's value

The maximum upside risk, however, is equal to about 3.5 times Ubaldo’s value.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

Maximum?

Given the pieces involved, that’s the FLOOR to equal Ubaldo’s value.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's what I'm trying to say

The floor with keeping Ubaldo is zero to somewhat negative value (he busts his arm and we have to pay him).

The floor with those four prospects is also zero (without the negative value associated with the contract) but the chances of that being the case are less since all four would have to bust at once.

The maximum production we can hope for from Ubaldo is Ubaldo at his prime, whereas the maximum value we can hope for from three of the four prospects is also equal to that. From Nova, it’s less, I’m saying about half that value, hence the 3.5 times.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

But you're not adding the risk

For Ubaldo, the risk is he busts his arm at some point in the next 3.5 years.

For the others, the risk is that they suck at the Major League level and go Morales or Greg Smith, and also the risk that they bust their arms at some point.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm trying to add it all. It's just a very difficult equation to account for everything.

By grouping all four together, you seem to be lumping them together as they’re as likely to zero out as Ubaldo alone is, that makes no sense. Insurance is based on having a group like that four covering combined risk that an individual, like Ubaldo, can’t.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Got to say RG is right here

The likelihood of Ubaldo reaching his ceiling is many times higher than the likelihood of ALL FOUR prospects reaching theirs; but they don’t all need to. If one of them reaches the same heights as Ubaldo, we just need any marginal positive contribution from just one of the others to make it worthwhile.

If all four are busts it’s as sucky as Ubaldo being a bust, but not 4 times more sucky (though it may feel it as our hopes are repeatedly smashed).

Incidentally, in half an hour I am off to play poker.

by biondino on Jul 20, 2011 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

But the likelihood of Ubaldo reaching Ubaldo heights is 1

The likelihoods for the rest are less than that.

Further, the value to this organization of a proven ace, cost controlled starter is significantly higher than a couple “Eh, he’s a passable starter” prospects. Therefore one prospect would HAVE to turn into another Ubaldo to make it worth it. And even then, you’re giving up the two years it would take for that to happen. So you’d have to get a return for that lost two years as well – and Nova is not that guy.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

The likelihood of Ubaldo reaching Ubaldo heights is less than one also.

It has to be. There’s no way that any credible risk assessment would give it a 100% chance.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

The chance that he stays there is <1

And is probably the same as the chance a given prospect doesn’t break. But as far as reaching a ceiling, he’s at 1. They are not.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

also, saying that it will take at least two years for the prospects to turn into Ubaldo

is as bad as saying that they’ll absolutely turn into Ubaldo within those two years. There will be a certain percentage chance (made greater since we’re talking about two AA prospects like this) that one or both turn Ubaldo like performances at the MLB level within that time.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

Bah

Basically, since you’ve got so many more probabilities on the right half of the equation, the values have to be significantly higher.

Also, you can insure against Ubaldo in the system, and the organization’s current pitching can do that. Can you insure against Montero? Are Bs insurance for each other? You have to include that in the calculation of value. And even so, you’re basically replacing Ubaldo now with an Ubaldo pitcher in two years (while you still have Ubaldo for a year and a half after that point).

The math doesn’t work out.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well who the heck would ever make that trade

unless there is enough risk you don’t get two Ubaldos and a P Fielder.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

why do you think the Yankees say they absolutely won't go that far?

You make that trade if you’re desperate for an Ubaldo now and don’t want to wait until 2013.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right.

The Yankees do not win the WS with their current rotation. They need Ubaldo now.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

If the Yankees won't go that far then why the 2000+ comment argument?

Cause we are all pissed at how this season has gone so we are arguing with ourselves to get out some frustrations?

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

actually, there's something to this.

We are all trying to figure out how to make this team win. Some think we can do it based around what we currently have, I’m now in the camp that has doubts about this.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

"All human wisdom is summed up in two words - wait and hope"

Or to say it a little different

"Patience is the companion of wisdom."

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Or, as has been said...

….crap in one hand, and wish in the other, and see which one fills up first.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Is this in 2011 or going forward

Because this year we have not had JDLR since May, we didn’t have Ubaldo in April, we have not had Cargo and Tulo at the level of production they will probably provide going forward, and Fowler, Cook, and Stewart have been so bad that it’s going to be almost impossible to get less production from those spots next year no matter what we choose to do.

I don’t know exactly how many wins that accounts for but I’m guessing it’s quite a few.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

But we're not

For this to work as is, one would HAVE to turn into Ubaldo. Because Ubaldo – a proven ace, who can pitch at Coors, with a club-friendly contract, cost-controlled for another 3.5 years – is basically the Holy Grail to this organization.

To make up for that, you need another organizational Holy Grail. Pitching is too uncertain, and the club has never filled 2B well. That’s why I say you need at a minimum the 2B of the future, who is also an absolutely sure thing.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

But isn't the Holy Grail so worth four or five gold plated goblets?

I mean, then you’d have a whole set!

;-)

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not if the other four are poisoned!

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

Snakes, why does it always have to be snakes.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's way more risky to have all of your value tied up in one asset

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think it's easier to break it down this way...

people who make it their interest, habit, and business to study and read/write about prospects are easily enamored with deals that bring back prospects, because they see every talented prospect as a potential star.

Those of us who focus our interest on the performance of the team and players at the ML level (i.e., we really follow the Colorado Rockies, not so much the Asheville Tourists) don’t value prospects in the same way, and are not comfortable seeing legit studs moved for anyone who has not demonstrated ability against major league competition.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nope.

I’m not a big prospects guy.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

How?

It is a move that looks to reestablish the farm system. That has nothing to do with luck. Having a strong farm system is a key to consistent competitiveness. That has nothing to do with luck.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yep.

By not a prospects guy I meant that I really don’t follow the Pebble Reports and such. But this is what happens when you’re trapped in the circle.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

I know

I just thought it was funny

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

why should we have to rely on 'getting a couple of breaks'

isn’t it better to attempt to acquire the most high-value talent you can, in the event that they contribute more than a “couple of breaks?”

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

You're including a not very good 2008 club

Look from 2009, they are 221-200. They are 221-200. That’s a .525 mark. That’s competitve. Add a 5 Win Above Aaron Cook pitcher and you’re a 90 win team.

by webgem14 on Jul 20, 2011 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

That 2008 club has much of the same talent, though

It’s a fair point.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

It wasn't applied in the same ways though

in terms of number of PAs and IP. Look at some of the garbage the team ran out early in that season. It’s frightening. And I don’t just mean Jayson NIx. Greg Reynolds made 14 starts. Glendon Rusch made 9. Willy Tavares picked up almost 600 PAs with a .308 OBP. It’s really not fair to lump that team in with this generation.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

13 of the same players on both teams

That’s not insignificant.

We’ve had substantial PA data at the Major League Level on most of our young core. We know what we have at this point, and you can only discredit so much of it to luck or injuries.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Straw man

My point is not that we don’t know how good our core players are. My point was simply that “13 of the same players” doesn’t tell the whole story when Fowler, Smith, and Stewart combined for 450 PAs in 2008.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

My point is that our record the past two seasons is a combined

129-130.

2009 is fluky to me because of the unsustainable Jim Tracy Hire 9tm) run the team went on the second half of that season. We were not a 92 win team that year.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

So the good years are fluky, and the sub .500 years are the only true indication.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

We were 18-28 before Tracy was fired.

Are you really telling me that we are really the .640% team that we showed under Jim Tracy n 2009?

We outperformed our talent level, and I think it’s skewing views on how much talent is really on this team

The sample size since then supports this claim.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

No, I'm saying if you want to judge this team...

…based on 2008-2011, what makes judging this team based on 2007-2011 any less valid?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

because 2007 was the flukiest thing of them all, and you should know that

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

No
The 1964 Philadelphia Phillies held a 6 1⁄2-game lead in an exceptionally strong National League with 12 games to play. They then lost ten-straight games (the first seven played at home) and fell into a second place tie.

A team with a 6.5 game lead and only 12 games to play, not even making the playoffs, is flukier.

There’s also the year that the AL East leader lost their last 7-8 games of the season and lost the division…the Blue Jays were either the team that blew the lead, or the team that won the division as a result of the blown lead, but I forget which.

2007 was pretty damn fluky. Really damn fluky. Maybe, just maybe, the flukiest thing of all times (but probably not).

Either way, that doesn’t mean the overall 2007 season is not a fair starting point to judge this team’s recent year performance.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’m a lot more inclined to believe that 09 was a true talent 92 win team than I am that 10 was a true talent 83 win team.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think we turn up our noses at 2010 too much around here

83 wins isn’t good enough, and losing 9 of 10 or whatever it was to close the season is certainly not good enough. But the word being tossed around on the Row a lot is “competitive.” Was the 2010 competitive for a playoff spot? Hell yes they were, they were a game back of the eventual division winner on September 20thish. I am very confident that that counts as “competitive” rather than “mediocre and hoping to get lucky.”

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

and remember how we had to win 10 in a row just to get to that point?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good team goes on winning streak. Film at 11.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

And remember how we lost 9 of 11 on a road trip after the ASB?

At some point you can’t pick on isolated little streaks and use them to discredit the season as a whole. The Rockies were a game out of first place with 2 weeks to go in the season. That unchangeable fact is enough for me to say that that team was very much in competition for a playoff spot.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

and remember how we were able to win 10 in a row to get to that point?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not calling out an individual year.

We have been .506 since Opening Day 2008. That’s not competitive in my book.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

There's no reason to start with 2008

I think starting with 2007 or 2009 makes much more sense- 2007 saw Troy come into his own as an offensive force while the rest of GenR (who would stick around through 2008) bloomed, and 2009 was the beginning of the Tracy/Cargo era. 2008 was the awful mess inbetween with Glendon Rusch and Greg Reynolds and Kip Wells.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

And how many teams have been better than .516 over that entire time period?

With two playoff appearances or more, and a WS appearance?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

This.

Arbitrarily choosing 2008 as your starting point is just lies, damn lies, and statistics.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, why not start with 2005 then?

That was when the farm movement really took the field!

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

2008 wasn't arbitrary.

I saw that as the starting point for the current Rockies.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

But plenty of 2011 Rockies were in fact 2007 Rockies.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is certainly debatable.

That’s why I gave the numbers with 2007, which isn’t much better. (.516)

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

so we're a .526% ballclub

that gives us 51 wins this season, or third in the West.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

I got

385-361 or .516. I am including this year.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and just going 2009-2011

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Which has us a second place team, actually.

SF .562
COL .526
LA .515
SD .491
ARI .444

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

This year, .526 is good enough for third place in the West.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but it’s a bit silly to compare one team’s three-year trend to everyone else’s one-year trend, isn’t it?

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

He was saying that 2009-2011 was the true talent of this team

I used that number to see what our true talent means.

It’d give us a third place team.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

But even with a .526 True Talent Level

you still have to account for under and overperformances in seasons. A .526 TTL team might play .560 one season and play .490 another.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right

Which is damn good with our payroll structure. I appreciate that you want the Rockies to be a .600 team every single year but it’s not going to happen unless our own little Steinbrenner comes along. For crying out loud, look at the A’s. from 2000 to 2003, or whatever the exact years were, they won at like a .620 clip with $40 MM payrolls because Beane was exploiting inefficiencies that aren’t there anymore. And even HE can’t figure out how to make them good these days. That’s the way it is when you’re a “have not” in today’s MLB. I think shooting for a .526 win percentage over the course of a decade is a great and realistic goal for a team like the Rockies.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

My point is, using your sample size of the "true talent" of this team

We are a third place team, with no real impact players incoming to make us better.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think shooting for a .526 win percentage over the course of a decade is a great and realistic goal for a team like the Rockies.

Generally, sure. I would take that as a baseline for our team and be okay.

But we’ll be getting worse in relation to the teams above us from here on out.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm tired of doing the math,

but I’d bet that the Rockies are pretty close to that over the last decade.

If that works out for you. Then that’s great. I’d like more.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

I did the math

They’re 86 games under .500 since the start of 2001. And that’s not good enough. But that includes the foolish way the team was run from 2001-2004, and then the growth stages for the GenR teams in 2005 and 2006. Since 2007, I think things have been going pretty darn well, and as long as DOD stays around I think they will continue to do so.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

A .474 clip since 2001 btw

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ovar a 162 game season,

the difference between .474 and .562 is eight wins. (77 and 85)

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

In baseball terms

That’s not close.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Think about it

being a team that expects to win about 85 every year means you have up years with playoff appearances and down years around 80 wins. If you’re a team that expects to win about 77, your up years are “Yay! We cracked .500!” and your down years are 90+ losses. It’s huge. I’m outta here, see everyone tomorrow for more of the same!

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Wild Card

has never been won at less than 88 wins in a 162 game season. I would say that it isn’t that far apart.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Eight WAR?

Gosh, that’s about one Ubaldo, no?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

This speaks to the point.

With or without Ubaldo’s WAR, we’re not making the playoffs. We need more.

Also, that stats are that Jimenez has only one season about 5.1 WAR, last year with a 7.2 WAR.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

And take away Ubaldo and we're a 75 win team.

So unless you know you’re going to get about 17 WAR from the players coming back, you’re not getting to your destination with them. And presuming 4-5 WAR a year from minor leaguers is just too presumptive.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

the only way to build a team and not

make those presumptions is through free agency.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

And then you're making presumptions

about whether or not those FAs will perform.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

you can't add and subtract WAR in a vaccum

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Part of the issue that some of us are acknowledging is that while the Rockies are staying the same

Arizona and San Francisco are getting better. San Diego’s also getting better, but it’s not as apparent yet. We are not. The extra wins these other teams are going to get will come from some place, and it stands to reason that they’ll come from the team standing pat.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

07 was a fluke

09 was not. Once Cargo was in the lineup full time and DLR came around, that was certainly one of the top 4 teams in the NL and had true talent to win 90 games. Hell, from June through September, I think they were the 2nd best team in the NL. They just had to play the best in the divisional round.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

What's different from 09?

Marquis, Barmes, and Hawpe. That’s about it. And aging isn’t a problem either for anyone except Todd (who’s not showing signs of it) and Betancourt (to the extent his contributions affect the overall talent level). Cook is the other issue. Still, it’s essentially the same team as 09, except with a fully developed Cargo.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Barmes' contribution was underrated.

Also we’re missing the Aaron Cook and Rafael Betancourt from those seasons, getting them replaced by entirely different monsters in the same bodies.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree that Barmes was underrated that year

But Betancourt only threw 25 innings for the Rockies. And while we’re also missing the 2009 Jason Hammel in addition to the 2009 Aaron Cook, I’m still perfectly happy to say that the two teams are reasonably similar enough to make 2009 a good standard for what the current roster is capable of. It’s not perfect, I know. It’s not the exact, precise same roster with the players all playing like they did then. But it’s close enough to matter.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

and even then we had to play .640 ball to get the Wild Card.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

No, we had to play .567 ball

Come on.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

And so did the 2007 club, so it's fair to include that 90-73 team.

By cherry-picking your starting point from the worst year in that period, you’re coloring your argument unfairly.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

as you are, by also cherry-picking a starting point.

I just go back 250 games on any given day, that’s a sample big enough to cover most of baseball’s randomness in a 16 team league.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

That 2008 club also had a ton of injuries

The real key for the Rockies is to stay healthy. When they do that, they seem to compete.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm happy with the team as it is.

One thing a team needs in any major sport is luck with injuries. Colorado has not had that. With the players that will be moving up to AAA and AA next year along with a few wise milfa the Rockies will be in good shape. I’d only trade Ubaldo for a teams top 10 prospects.

by 3nS on Jul 20, 2011 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

JDLR is not going to put this team within reach of the division at the moment

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

If JDLR doesn't get injured

Replace his starts for each one of Cooks starts this year. I don’t think you are comprehending the weight of the extra innings JDLR pitches in, and the effect it has on our rotation and the pen.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not quite.

Replace Nicasio’s innings with DLR. Cook would likely still be pitching a similar number of games for us because of his contract.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

That is a good point.

I would believe however that Cook would be on a shorter leash with a healthy JDLR.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

I do think Colorado needs another starter in FA

Ubald is Premier. Chacin, Nicasio are improving and will continue to improve. Rogers is iffy. Hammel is backsliding. Friedrich and Houston should be in AAA next year and MLB ready in 2013. So there is a need for a MLB pitcher and a couple AAAA FA to be backups.

by 3nS on Jul 20, 2011 8:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rogers is a good 5 starter in my opinion. I think he needs to be given full opportunity for a spot in the rotation next year…

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hammel time in Japan

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

So, he'll come back and pitch

with a 2.15 ERA for the Giants in a couple years. Great!

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

/bangs head on desk in frustration

I wonder what Jose Lopez would have produced with the Giants.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rogers has never proven himself to be a viable starter, outside of one or two decent games

I still don’t get this whole fascination with Rogers as a starter thing, because his actual cumulative performance as a starter, frankly, sucks.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

maybe because he actually throws decent stuff, rather than just parking it out there at 91 and hoping they hit ground balls and he is only 26 and only has 98 innings to his name. Give him a little work and maybe he can do it. Id rather let him try than park jason hammel out there for batting practice

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

"Stuff" and "Pitching" aren't exactly the same.

I don’t dispute his stuff at all. He’s got a live arm.

So did Morales. Hell, so does Paulino.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

very true and I know that too, but maybe a little more time and he can get it, try him out the rest of this year and see what he does…I mean we kinda know what we got with Cook and Hammel anymore

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well yeah, if we are in fact out of it I have no problem with giving Rogers some starts this year

But to think he’s likely part of the rotation going forward of an actual contender, there’s just nothing in his actual performance that suggests this to be likely.

Maybe he’ll surprise us.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thats all I want is for him given a chance to surprise us and for Hammel and Cook to be gone, for good, because they aint doing shit back there.

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Let's not pretend that a lot of pitchers haven't made long, effective careers for themselves

by “parking it out there at 91 and hoping they hit ground balls”. It’s a skillset, much like having nasty strikeout stuff is.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

/Maddux'd

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

/Glavine'd

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

/Mussina'd

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

yeah, let's use 3 of the best of all time as our benchmark for expectations

mussina and glavine could get away with a junk fastball because of outstanding command and devastating off-speed pitches, particularly changeups

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

I can provide a whole list

of pitchers who built nice careers because of outstanding command and outstanding offspeed pitches, who didn’t have devastating fastballs.

I chose those three because of their obviousness and recency, because I shouldn’t have to go beyond that to prove the point.

Okay, eff it. Jamie Moyer. He’s built a great career out of having crap for stuff. But excellent command and pinpoint control. No, he’s not one of the best of all time.

Again, I feel I’m being trolled here, especially as such a high percentage of your posts are in response to posts of mine.

Unless you can actually prove that you can’t expect a pitcher to be successful without mad ass wicked stuff, you’re trolling.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think we need a definition and baseline for mad ass wicked stuff

Because Maddux wasn’t “DAMN HE COULDN’T CATCH UP TO THAT 87 MPH HEAT”, but he threw freaking wiffleballs.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 4:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

27 pitchers qualified for ERA rights from 2005-present had their average FB velocity below 90

and 20 below 89.

of these, only maddux, livan hernandez, jeff francis, brandon webb, derek lowe, trevor cahill and john garland threw their FB 60% of the time or more.

lets break down those names: 1 top 10 all time pitcher (maddux), 1 livan hernandez, 1 crafty lefty whose effectiveness and success is dubious at best, and 4 sinkerballers.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

you know what's scary

he’s currently got the second best FIP and xFIP of his career… to 2010

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 5:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would argue that there really isn’t much of a place for this any more, almost all the top itchers in the game are at 93 or 94 atleast. Not saying there still couldn’t be and there is probably a great example, but Hammel and Cook aint worth shit anymore

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hammel still hits 95-96

So while he may be a crap pitcher, he really doesn’t have a place in this argument. He has stuff, and while his results suck this year, he and Cook aren’t remotely similar as pitchers.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Man, Cliff Lee’s gonna be really disappointed that his 90-92 ain’t cutting it all of a sudden. There’s no worse argument than ‘you gotta throw hard to be any good’.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

and there was the great example that I was talking about. Hey if you want Hammel and COok on the back end of the rotation yet thats fine. I just think they suck and we should try to find something else

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hammel has been given 5 seasons to show his 5 ERA, Rogers has been given 98 career innings…maybe just a bit more of a chance…whatever you want Hammel that is fine like I said. I want Rogers or something else

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

no, it's a fair point

I don’t think we have the luxury of letting either of them pick themselves back up, but at the same time, Hammel has 2 seasons in a Rockies’ uniform of solid #4 pitching to make his case.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hammel

He’s JDR that cannot get past his own mental demons. Loses his release point can’t find it, overthrows…He gets it back, and teases you until he loses it again. He is frustrating.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

cliff lee also has historically good command

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

yeah sure, just saying given the recent upside in pitching this year there are so many pwoer pitchers now in the game

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

no, but as much as i hate this line of thought over at fangraphs

the best way for a pitcher to succeed is by not having to rely on BIP being handled by your defense

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

it's also a terrible market for starting pitching this year

we wouldn’t get anyone reasonable due to competition with teams holding more cash

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe we could send along our top prospects to get an on the rise ACE pitcher

;)

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Unless it's involving our glut of lefty OF

it’d be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

My message must not have come across

Why don’t the Rockies do a reverse Ubaldo? Trade our top prospects to pick up another #1 starter. Then we can have two just like the other top teams.

/92% sarcastic

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

we would end up having to pull a Marlins and fire sell the team…because we would have absolutely nothing left in the farm and our team would become too expensive

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

I would think more like the Giants

minus the Barry Zito and A Roward contracts of course

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

If I felt this way, I would probably agree with you.

I don’t believe that the last two years have just been bad luck. I think it’s a bigger gamble to continue down the same path while ascribing any problems to bad luck than to make a move to change the current situation.

Maybe I am underestimating the talent, but the talent hasn’t performed.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not sure I agree

I am in agreement with the “not as good as advertised” crowd. I’m also of the opinion that the Ubaldo trade, if any, must be an absolute MURDER of the other side. THe issue is not black and white, but the argument (and the right-margin) has given me a wild headache. Have fun, y’all.

by Teekalong on Jul 20, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

And there's no doubt about that. The Rockies haven't performed up to our talent level the last two years.

And by that I mean, Colorado has the potential to have every hitter in their lineup post above league-average offensive stats (besides maybe 2B), but only a few positions have actually done it. The pitching, as I’ve maintained recently, has been more or less fine outside of Cook and Hammel a little (Hammel’s been fine as a 5, Cook shouldn’t be in MLB).

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

This strikes me as being similar to teams like

the A-Rod era Rangers. On paper, it seems like they should destroy the competition. But once they start playing the games, it doesn’t work out that way.

I understand and appreciate your faith. I share some of it. I just feel that the performance begs for a move as long as it is big enough to be a game-changer for the system.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wait, we're not supposed to spend all day at Purple Row while working?

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oh Crap,

Back to work. :-O

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

It certainly was

But I still think the battle here is not what the title of this article, nor what your posts yesterday seem to imply. The two camps are not “Don’t you EVER EVER trade Ubaldo” vs. “Trade Ubaldo”. The two camps are “Don’t you EVER EVER trade Ubaldo” vs. “Don’t you EVER EVER trade Ubaldo unless………”

That’s where this gets tricky. While I agree with all the reasons Jeff listed not to trade Ubaldo, it still fails to close one significant loophole. No matter how high you believe Ubaldo’s value is to the Rockies, and Jeff makes an excellent case for it being enormous, there’s still going to be a point where enough talent is coming back in a return that it would exceed the value Ubaldo provides to the Rockies.

Let’s say Ubaldo is worth the high end of Jeff’s projection – $100 million over the next 3.5 years. Even if that’s a guarantee, it still doesn’t mean you shouldn’t trade Ubaldo for a haul of prospects that will provide $120 million. Where this gets even more complicated (and this is the part where I tend to lean more towards your camp) is that it’s impossible to know exactly how much value any haul of prospects will provide. There’s not a doubt in my mind that there’s a trade out there (although I don’t think another team will offer it) where it would behoove the Rockies to deal Ubaldo. The fly in this ointment though is that Ubaldo provides so much value to the Rockies to begin with, that the risk of trading him for what very well could be superior value is so colossal, that a failure to get this right would set the franchise backwards for several seasons.

And so the question is laid out for us. If some desperate soul is foolish enough to offer the farm for Ubaldo, is it wise to gamble one of our biggest assets for what potentially could be a baseball gold mine?

To be honest with you, I don’t know. That’s why I’ve remained silent through most of this debate. There’s absolutely a scenario out there where the Rockies trade Ubaldo and get better, much better even, but the consequence for trading Ubaldo and getting it wrong…..it’s so ugly I don’t even want to think about it.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

One other thing on the issue...

For most of the last 18 years, the biggest complaint around here has been our teams lack of a stud ace pitcher. We whine about how other teams have had people like Lincecum, Kershaw, and before them, pretty much every young ace pitcher to come down the pipe since 1993.

Now we actually have one. Better still, we developed him ourselves. Now, the first thing anyone wants to do is get rid of him.

/schmokeandapancaked
/pipeandacreped

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 7:49 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Stop misrepresenting the other side's stance.

This is what got me angry in the first place, it’s what gets me upset now, and then we misrepresented your stance, and then that’s how the great Ubaldo battle of 2011 was born. Nobody wants to get rid of Jimenez.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:01 AM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

Mondo, it's not that they want to get rid of him, it's that they're willing to gamble that Colorado gets more surplus value in a trade for him than they surrender

My argument is that this possibility is highly unlikely, even with the “dream” deal with the Yankees.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

we have been using the Yankees because names have actually been mentioned

I think the Rangers are a far more likely trade candidate

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

This could be logical, but who would be coming back our way?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree with this.

The Rangers would be foolish to make a move for him. It ruins their overall goal of consistent competitiveness.

The Yankees need him to reach their overall goal of winning the WS every year.

The Rangers may be that dumb though.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

To be honest, I don't see the Rangers offering a "more valuable" package than the one I mentioned.

If we get Perez, Profar, plus — that’s still around the projected value of NY’s package. In other words, my point remains the same

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

What if they do offer more?

What if the Yankees offer more? I’m just saying that O’Dowd’s holding out for more. If reports I’ve ready are correct he possibly did want more from NYY than the four aforementioned players. What value makes it a worthwhile trade?

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

If you can get 6 top 100 prospects for him or so, representing at least $85 million in projected surplus value, I pull the trigger

A little more than half the time, the Rockies win that deal.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:29 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

alright, so this is where I think the Yankees package is getting undervalued

Not all top 100 prospects are created equal, those closer to the majors will give a higher average surplus value than those farther away, but they’re being lumped together as exactly the same. If O’Dowd’s seeking near MLB ready help like the Yankees four, it will be a better deal than if he’s looking at lower levels for Jurickson Profar, Jameson Taillon types that are a lot riskier.

I still think the four alone might not cover that surplus value, but it’s going to be a lot closer than you’re indicating.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I also think Montero's bat is being completely undervalued around here

It’s been all about TINSTAAP, but Montero would be an All-Star level hitter at Coors Field

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

We hope he would be

but we don’t know, he could easily be a bust too. We know what we have with Ubaldo, its proven that he can get major league hitters out. I agree with trading talented major league players if that said player will not likely re-sign and if that player is more or less replaceable. This is my biggest issue w/ Ubaldo, we may not find another ace type pitcher for 10 years, its a scarcity in our organization and not easy to find in baseball period. He also seems willing to sign with the Rox at a reasonable cost.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

You're overestimating the chances that Montero's going to be a bust by a lot.

Given his level and tools he’s about as likely to bust at this point as Ubaldo is.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

While I respect your opinion there is no way you can know that

Your opinions are coming across as facts, which they aren’t, they are your opinions based on what you see.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's a factual statement, it can be proven or disproven

And I’m actually trying to figure that out. We know that there’s actuarial risk with Ubaldo’s arm, we know that there’s risk with a top hitting prospect at the AAA level not producing at the MLB level. I’m curious which risk is higher. I think they’re probably a lot closer than people realize.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree "you think they are probably a lot closer then people realize"

There are others who don’t think this at all.

None are proven. So we agree.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

well find proof for your side.

I’m trying to do the same. We’ll meet in court counselor.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately the proof will come in the future and too late for these arguments

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible. "

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

no, you can disprove my statement now.

I was talking about the inherent risk of certain classes of players (an ace starter like Jimenez and a AAA stud hitter like Montero) and that risk can be ascertained, it’s what good GM’s should do.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

No I cannot prove that trading Ubaldo will be beneficial or not

Ahhh inherent risk – a subject I know very well

No matter what you say about it you cannot know or detect everything so there is no definite answer and risk of outcomes in all scenarios.

As to whether or not DOD should make the trade? I can only have my opinion.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

montero is very highly regarded

he’s about as close to a sure thing as prospect can be.

while i respect your opinions, you’re trying to play them off as facts, which they arent

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Which of my opinions are facts?

and when have I ever mentioned any prospect by name and whether or not they could succeed?

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

You’re overestimating the chances that Montero’s going to be a bust by a lot.

Given his level and tools he’s about as likely to bust at this point as Ubaldo is.

RG

While I respect your opinion there is no way you can know that

Your opinions are coming across as facts, which they aren’t, they are your opinions based on what you see.

you

you are not explicitly saying montero won’t succeed, but you’re definitely implying it, and you’re also definitely implying anyone who thinks he will succeed is basing that off nothing, solely opinions and not minor league record , scouting, etc

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are putting words in my mouth

enjoy

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

'you're not explicitly saying... you're implying... also implying...'

but think what you want

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

and his body's going to age worse than his dad's.

Who was out of baseball by 34.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't agree with this.

Prince takes much better care of himself.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I see no reason to believe Prince will age worse than his dad.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

He's 5'11" and 270 pounds

How does that age well? I’m not suggesting he doesn’t train, but some body types just do not age well. Maybe if he loses another 45 pounds.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

you said at first he was to age worse than Cecil.

Now you’re changing what you said to something more generic.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

He may well age worse than Cecil. Or the same.

He is highly unlikely to age significantly better than Cecil.

Unless you’ve got a nice database of mid-to-late 30s baseball players that short and that heavy who have aged well otherwise….

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

Jonathan Ogden

was 6-9 340 and played til he was 34. I would say right around 34 or 35 is right for Prince.
I wonder what he eats if he is a veggie and still weighs that much

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

i still dont see

Why all the scouts love him. They must see the power in bp, because it has never fully translated to the game. Add in zero running speed and dh level defense.

by mkorpal on Jul 20, 2011 8:56 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's a similar case to Rosario

where a relatively moderate amount of power now (and in Montero’s case in mostly pitching friendly venues) translates to much more a couple of years from now. He has a much more advanced approach at the plate than Rosario allowing him to hit for average and walks, too.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

yet,

For some reason Rosario is a much lower rated prospect than Montero, despite being a plus defender at a premium position. I see them both being 20 to 25 home run hitters. Montero will probably have higher obp numbers. The true difference will be Rosary could aol gold gloves at catcher, while Montero could end up being a DH.

by mkorpal on Jul 20, 2011 9:10 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

Montero has a much better contact tool

He’ll hit 30 HR and hit .310+

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

Is there a money back guarantee on that?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

i also prefer the talent available from the Rangers

Perez and Profar and Erlin are better in my mind. Plus, I like the Rangers.

by mkorpal on Jul 20, 2011 8:15 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

What if Washington offers

Bryce Harper

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

i would take harper in a nano-second

That kid is going to be the next to take the batting triple crown.

by mkorpal on Jul 20, 2011 9:12 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

I would take a chance on it as well, regarded as the top prospect ever A Rod and Dave Winfield territory,

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Montero's early numbers compare well to Harper's

I looked at them the other day and was actually surprised at how closely they compared at similar ages…

I’m still a skeptic on the trade, but I think if the name involved was “Bryce Harper” instead of “Jesus Montero”, people would be a lot more excited about it, justified or not…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'd be more excited, because Harper's going to play OF in the majors

Right now, Montero doesn’t have a position, because he’s not going to play catcher in the majors. Probably 1B/DH, and one of those we don’t even employ, the other is current filled through between 2012-2013.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

if Lance Berkman can play RF, Montero can play RF

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Another reason to wave bye-bye to Seth Smith

Actually, putting Brad Hawpe in that sentence would have worked, too.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't really have a position on it

If he’s the full time starter this year including against lefties, and doesn’t do reasonably well against LHers, that would probably shift me into the “it’s okay to trade him” camp. But he’s affordable and has some pop, so there’s no super impetus to move him.

But it seems he’s fixated in a lot of people’s plans…and those plans need be revisited if any of these alleged blockbuster trades happen.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

people would be a lot more excited about it if it involved prospects from any team that isn't the yankees

if we were talking rays, royals, rangers prospects, everyone would want them, but because they’re yankees, they’re automatically overhyped, and are guaranteed to not perform on the level of St. Ubaldo

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

A rendon/j. zimmerman package might be more realistic

~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~

by TomCat009 on Jul 20, 2011 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe that Ubaldo would love to play his whole career for Colorado

I say let him.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 7:57 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

this please

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Loser.

Trade his sorry butt now.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Woody agrees with me

There fore you should too.

Or not, I don’t care.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

Why did you even link that.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

Because I hate freedom

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Because
The Rockies will give you Aaron Cook, Ian Stewart, Chris Iannetta and Eric Young Jr. for a No. 2 starting pitcher. How do you like them apples, Big Apple?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I make that deal yesterday.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

wowwwwwwwww

everybody is clamoring for those 4 guys.

Woody clearly never understood the meat-and-potatoes deal

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good stuff

Watching Jimenez blow a heater right past the Braves’ hitters was fun to watch. I agree with a lot of your points but I’m not sure we can pencil in a healthy DLR into the rotation for next year and even more so for the year after. If I remember correctly, we signed him for a 2 year deal with a club option for 2013 and I’m not confident this FO will make that type of committment on a pitcher who will pitch in 10 or so games in 2012. Of course it all depends on how well he looks in those 10 games but the realization of not having a healthy DLR in a Rox uniform anymore has been the most depressing point of this year for me.

by osierra11 on Jul 20, 2011 8:00 AM MDT reply actions  

not to mention that Friedrich and Bettis don't project as any more than mid rotation guys at this point

and that’s a big maybe.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Bettis still could be a reliever only at the MLB level.

Although it’s looking a lot better that he’s a rotation candidate.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

but that goes back to the point we were making yesterday

aside from Arenado and Rosario, there isn’t really anything left in the pipeline to fill any holes in the system. No 1B candidate, no 2B, no other TOR candidates in case DLR doesn’t recover…

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

My argument is that a TOR starter like Ubaldo leaves a void that is much harder to fill than any other void

I think the Rockies can figure it out without trading Jimenez

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

okay, then what about Pedro's question up above?

How else do we get quality talent into the system? It’s not in the current farm, and it’s not through free agency. It’s not via trading a mid level talent like Smith.

Where will it come from?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:11 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

convenient how nobody chooses to respond to this one

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess we're f*d then.

Its a shame building a dominating team without tons of $$$ isn’t easy.

by Teekalong on Jul 20, 2011 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

What would you say the solution would be?

My big issue is free agency will only get us one player, and that rules out re-signing Jimenez, meaning we would have to trade him in two years without the leverage we have now. The team’s best farm talent won’t fill the rotation gap that’s forming between SF and AZ and us, and that’s what I’m most concerned about.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

That sounds like a problem for 2013 Dan O'Dowd.

Now, I’m being a little facetious, but I really am not that worried about it. It’s much more relevant to worry about now. I’m of the opinion that the money will be there to extend Jimenez as well should the brass decide it is a good idea.

Colorado has the best core in the NL West for at least the next 2 years, and they have some money coming off the books after this year. Maybe they trade for a Gordon Beckham to play 2nd, maybe Friedrich is an above average starter, and maybe we advance some of our top prospects and see what we have.

I think we’ve got a great top 3 pitchers, and I believe that if you add Friedrich and Nicasio into the mix our rotation will look just fine. As for hitting, we’ve got a wealth of OFs, a great catching prospect on his way up, and several intriguing middle infielders in the pipeline. I’m not concerned.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Your argument has as many maybes (even more) than the argument for trading Ubaldo.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

But my point is that there are options besides trading him, and I'd rather rely on Friedrich to fill a 4/5 slot...

than Banuelos/Betances to fill the 1/2 slot.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Jul 20, 2011 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

If you trade him two years from now

then you get two years of Ubaldo. That’s worth more than the leverage you might not have by then.

by webgem14 on Jul 20, 2011 8:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's what Jeff is saying

It could be. I think it depends on how far you get some team to go. There will be a point where a deal becomes worth it.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

which is likely to happen, if the team continues to underperform

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

Exactly. The rotation still doesn't match up to SF's, it will fall behind AZ's

The lineup will fall behind AZ’s and SD’s the course we’re on has us staying in third or fourth in the division, possibly fifth if a new owner can quickly fix the Dodgers and we aren’t going to trade relievers or bench scrubs like Spilborghs or Wigginton to fix those problems, we aren’t going to make a big splash in free agency without being put into a position like Minnesota had with Johan Santana or Cleveland with Cliff Lee in two seasons, and one player might help us win the division, but we’d still be weak compared to Philly and Atlanta.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

Or Tyler Anderson

Since we know this team isn’t going to go big on FA, I really wish we would’ve been more aggressive in the draft this year.

by osierra11 on Jul 20, 2011 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

I've grown to not hate that selection

because of the Story pick. If his upside is Jeff Francis, we could do a lot worse.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't hate the selection

Getting a 3 or 4 starter with your first pick would be a win to me but I wish they would have gone after some high upside players after the first round. On the open market, a 3 or 4 would cost us around $10M a year, if not more. Maybe a more aggressive approach after the 1st round would have done us some good.

by osierra11 on Jul 20, 2011 8:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't really fault that pick...

the higher upside pitchers that were available that far down are a lot farther away from contributing in the majors without major unforeseen developments. This is where Matzek’s struggles really hurt us, though. I really hope this overhaul turns him around.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

If anything, it emphasizes the holes in our farm

that we grabbed a safer guy that would be MLB ready much faster, though with less upside than other selections.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with this

After Nicasio, and to a certain extent Freidrich, who else can be a part of the rotation in the next year or two?

by osierra11 on Jul 20, 2011 8:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

at the point we drafted

There was really only one frontline starter left. And he was a high schooler. I think we are going to stay away from them for a while.

by mkorpal on Jul 20, 2011 8:21 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

The Matzek situation should have no bearing on future picks

But it did have that feeling this year. Can’t really say it’s true until we see how they draft in the next few years.

by osierra11 on Jul 20, 2011 8:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

A big maybe? On prospects?

No way…..

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

On the subject of JDLR

He’s reportedly ahead of schedule in his recovery, but who knows. Best case probably has him able to start pitching games in May next year, so he wouldn’t miss that much time.

But as for his option, the 2013 option is a player option, not a team option, and then there’s a 2014 team option that the club can exercise if JDLR picks up the 2013 option.

Pretty certain JDLR’s guaranteed to pick up his 2013 option at this point. So in theory, if he recovers fine, we’re not in any danger of losing him.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification

He’s my favorite pitcher to watch in person so knowing he’s around another year is great news.

by osierra11 on Jul 20, 2011 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

6-8 260, sounds kind of like a Michael Pineda type or a right handed CC just in terms of size and velocity

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well this place is crazy lately

Suppose we will go to 1000 comments again on the same topic/argument

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:36 AM MDT reply actions  

There are some new wrinkles today.

You thought that we touched them all yesterday?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well…yah. It seems like some people get really mad and offended about something that is likely not to happen. And some people really think that one way is right and one way is wrong. Valuing prospects, valuing a players effect on attendance, valuing return on investment are all things that cannot be predicted. Ubbaldo could go win 2 Cy Youngs yet or his arm could fall apart next season and never return to form. Montero could be a HOFer and Betances could bust out next year…nobody knows…

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

You are completely right.

But I don’t come here for the food.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

you got a problem with hot dogs?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

You forget that this is akin to an internet message board

And we are all passionate about our boys in purple. The fact that we are all communicating with a text medium makes it more difficult to perceive that we are all trying to be civil in the beginning, and easier to see other peoples opinions as personal attacks on our own.

Furthermore, the potential of an Ubaldo trade is a national sports news story, therefore very easy to develop heated discussion. Frankly, it reminds me too much of the day when Jay Cutler demanded a trade out of Denver.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

I said that yesterday that it reminded me of Cutler and Marshall, except one is a bitch and one is a baby

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Last post on this,

But are there any Broncos boards that you participate in?

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

why because I should post about the Broncos on there?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

No, not at all.

I was wondering if I had seen you before on some of the boards I post on.

I go on MHR occasionally, but spend most of my football time on BroncosForums.com

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

I haven’t heard of that one, I might have to check it out. I just found SB Nation like a year ago and its pretty easy with just one spot.

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

MHR

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

As it should be, it's a very controversial topic for Rockies fans.

It makes a lot of sense that this would be the biggest point of discussion this year.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 8:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Someone is forgetting about Johnny Herrera…

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

my consipiracy theory still remains the only reason he is on the team is because that was party of Cargo’s contract demands

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Every time I come into a Purple Row thread lately, I have that ‘YOU MAD’ image cocked and loaded, ready to post if the opportunity presents itself, as it assuredly will.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oh, You Mad

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

talking about trading the best pitcher in franchise history?

I am surprised we haven’t gone to rockpile overflows.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

I suggested it yesterday

But I think everyone else thought if a mod would just ban me, the # of posts would remain manageable. ;-)

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

Anyone else notice

how butt-ugly awful the Braves’ celebrated bullpen looked, trying to pick up the entire second half of a game for the second time in 3 days?

Another factor to consider, as we ponder a future without Ubaldo. Your horse doesn’t just impact the games he pitches.

I never say never on trading any player, but the idea of losing Ubaldo’s innings makes the hair on the back of my neck stand at attention.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 8:47 AM MDT reply actions  

Venters and Kimbrel are awesome at the back end and they have another nice situational lefty, but the do have some holes in the middle. Its nice to have Hanson Hudson Lowe Jair to depend on

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

I wasn't knocking their pen

Which is very good. But leaned on hard enough, any bullpen will show some flaws. That’s probably why the Dodgers’ bullpen is in the sad state that it is today.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

very true…Kuo just can’t seem to rebound and Broxton seems like Eric Gange #2

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

And losing Ubaldo's 200 innings will do what to our pen?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

pshhhh maybe league average

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ian Stewart hit the ball hard last night

hit a fly ball the other way and a 410 ft bomb to center field and a walk…and I didn’t go through the game thread but

Holy Balls they intentionally walked Ian Stewart, a .140 hitter on the year…I laughed pretty hard watching it

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 8:55 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Yep, Ian finally saw four pitches

That he could give up on before they ever left the pitcher’s hand, and they didn’t end up as called strikes on the inside corner.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think on one of them he licked his chops and thought about it

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

Why didn’t we call up Pacheco over him? I had never even heard of Fonz till we called him up, probably because Pacheco and Rosario and Pagnozzi had gotten more PUB before

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

because Pacheco isn't an MLB catcher

and was the only AAA guy not OPSing over 1.000

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

oh I just thought I remember him having a strong spring. So is he ever going to play in the MLB? Cuz if not I need to know so I can forget about him

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Future as a utility guy

supposed MLB ready bat, but he’s been having a really rough season.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think he kinda looks like Kyle Parker

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

nowhere near the power potential

Pacheco should be a line drive doubles hitter as a utility guy.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

that was based on a pure facial looks, nothing like talent or anything like that

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Pacheco's also still learning the position

So they don’t want him sitting on the bench 5 out of 7 days. Fonz is a finished product, which is somewhat scary in its own right.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ian since being recalled

.273/.351/.424. That’s respectable and only a 24% K rate. That’s

by webgem14 on Jul 20, 2011 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

I just hope he is sincerely given one more shot…I have this feeling he will get way better next year and I don’t want it to be for another team…like Al Albequerque

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

yaayyy, more Ian love. I need some help around here

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

I love watching ian bomb a ball, I feel there is nothing like it…I was looking through baseball americas top prospects lists the other day and I saw him a few times and it made me hope for what someday might be when he finds it.

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

I have to say that the changes

he has made are pretty stark, and I really like the results so far. He seems to be seeing the ball much better, and I like the position of the bat more, quicker to the hitting zone. He is also being more agressive, which has been my complaint with him. Find a hittable pitch and cruch it Ian.

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Jul 20, 2011 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

He no longer looks painful at the plate

Thankfully.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

his plate approach is much better in my opinion, still the slider from the lefty looks too good to him right away but I really think he can turn it around

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

I for one would just like to point out

That I was right in yesterdays RP about Ubaldo last night.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 9:16 AM MDT reply actions  

that he would eat a weiner after his stellar outing?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

A goat weiner?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

As was I.

I know, so hard to have any confidence at all that he’d throw a quality start at home.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Mondo, come on.

Two good home starts is not indicative of him throwing another QS.

I think we both can agree on that.

Now, please stop throwing it in my face when you’re right. I wouldn’t have done the same if Ubaldo didn’t throw a QS. It’s childish.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is three and a row now.

So how confident are you that his next home start will be a quality start? Just wondering how many in a row he has to throw before you feel safe thinking he will throw one? I think that’s a fair question.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

He has been

a completely different pitcher both on the road, and at home starting in June. I have more confidence in him shutting down a team, than I do Tulo up with RISP in the 9th and a chance to win the game.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

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Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

When I see Tulo up with RISP in the 9th and a chance to win the game,

I turn on the late local news.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

so your dog is a huge Tulo fan?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Liar

you don’t watch baseball

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

Maybe the Rockies can trade Tulo for some really good pitching to go along with Ubaldo

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

I feel more confident.

And i am a person who looks more at quality of performance than just performance.

Ubaldo was on top of things last night. He looked fantastic. He gave up a good amount of hits, but his pitches were quality. The previous two home starts did not look like that to me.

My whole point was that Road Ubaldo is better than Home Ubaldo. I have more faith in Ubaldo throwing a QS on the road than at home. (ball movement, etc)

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

"Road Ubaldo is better than Home Ubaldo. I have more faith in Ubaldo throwing a QS on the road than at home. (ball movement, etc)"

Okay, but is that really different than what you can say for any starting pitcher in the game of baseball?

That they’re somewhat more likely to throw a QS outside of Coors Field than at Coors Field?

That doesn’t mean we can’t be confident that he will do so, nor doesn’t mean he will always do so.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

What point are you even trying to make?

So what, I wasn’t confident about Ubaldo throwing a QS at home last night. The body of evidence supports me. He had two good home starts in a row, I wasn’t ready to declare him King of Coors Field. I see NOTHING wrong with being unsure.

Give me a break.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Aberle makes the point I wasn't eloquent enough to make

In Jimenez, you have a lot of talent and value in one player. If you try to flip that player for prospects, you dilute that talent and value, and therefore get less valuable returns – particularly since not all of the prospects will pan out to maximum value. 1+1+1+1 /= 4.

You’re better off turning him into one or two can’t-miss players of equal value in positions the organization is weak, if you do it at all.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 9:18 AM MDT reply actions  

Thanks for the post Jeff

Great stuff. I’m glad at least one person on staff here is on this side of the issue. You are somewhere forgiven for what will be known throughout history as The Great Sunday Losing Streak of 2011.

Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.

by BrandonHawpe on Jul 20, 2011 9:21 AM MDT reply actions  

I want RMN's opinion

And I want it now!!

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'd weep like a child and be mildly depressed if they traded Ubaldo

but if the Rockies are offered a deal that any GM would have to be stupid to turn down… well, Dan O’Dowd isn’t stupid.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not opinionated enough

please try again

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

um

something about cheapforts?

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Lazy

please try again

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

balls

uhhhhh

Trading Ubaldo for potential, even potential that is likely to manifest itself into performance, is a risky move. Emotionally, I’d hate to lose Ubaldo. But if the “blow you away” offer is really there, it’d be a hard – but wise – move to make. We’d still be banking on a lot of the existing talent to return to “good” with or without Ubaldo, so I don’t see him as the hingepin.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Too much use of the word "potential" not enough use of the word "special"

please try again

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rhombused for an accurate portreyal of my opinion.

This is why I think we are friends.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

In a way, I'm in agreement with him too.

I think they’ve convinced me that the purported Yankees four aren’t quite enough for Ubaldo, but I do think that those four are a lot closer to Ubaldo’s value than he or a majority of people here are making them out to be.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think it could be with a third team

I think if you could package Nova and something else to get a better pitcher it could become that way, but otherwise I agree.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 10:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

Don’t trade Ubaldo. I think it would be stupid. And I have a hard time believing that anything in the Yankees farm system is really worth getting (admittedly, I know nothing about the Yankee farm system).

Low-cut blouses are looked down upon in this establishment.

by wtnelson on Jul 20, 2011 9:29 AM MDT reply actions  

I am for not trading Ubaldo

We have our Stopper back. Last year Ubaldo had 7-10 wins following Rockies losses. he is doing that again.

by RockiesModernLife on Jul 20, 2011 9:36 AM MDT reply actions  

Jason Grilli got signed by the Bucs

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 9:39 AM MDT reply actions  

/Hurdle'd

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Haha I knew I should have known better than to Fanshot this news. But I did it anyway.

Low-cut blouses are looked down upon in this establishment.

by wtnelson on Jul 20, 2011 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

don't stop doing it

we frontpage those sometimes.

probably won’t frontpage Jason Grilli news, but hey

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oh I won’t. I like FanShots. It did take me awhile to figure out that all news is posted and discussed in the Rockpiles when I first started here. But I am committed to making the FanShot page more important than any other on PR. It’s my #1 goal in life right now.

Low-cut blouses are looked down upon in this establishment.

by wtnelson on Jul 20, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

The importance of depth

A Giant fan perspective:

Look at what you have: Tulo, Cargo, Ubaldo, and not much else. Look at the Giants of the 60’s: Mays, McCovey, Marichal and not much else. Before this current Giant team came along I wondered how the Giants never managed to get past the Dodgers back in the 60’s, but now I know. The current Giants have depth at pitching, and that allows them to maximize the value of their meagre runs. Tulo’s and Cargo’s (and Mays’ and McCovey’s) runs simply have less value per run than those scored by the likes of a Cody Ross or Nate Schierholtz.

You guys lack pitching depth, and until you address that, you have very little chance, either within the division or in the postseason. If trading one of your big three can begin to turn around your depth problem, your management should do it. Of those three, Jimenez is the one I would be most against dealing, since he is a pitcher, and that is the kind of depth you need. But if you can get three legit future quality starting pitchers for him, do it.

At his best, Ubaldo is a pitcher that gives you an excellent chance to win 1 out of every 5 starts. If you can turn him into guys that give you a good chance 3 out 5 days, your management should consider it.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 10:00 AM MDT reply actions  

You're forgetting Chacin

but the rest is spot on. Our rotation is not as good as others in the division, and it’ll start falling further back.

We no longer have a great, well-rounded offense to carry us.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Tulo Cargo Ubbaldo Chacin and maybe JDLR
the rest is pretty blah and dependant on “suprise” pitching performances from 3/4/5 slots and bullpen

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

I missed both Chacin and de la Rosa really...

But my point is, you gotta start stacking decent arms like cordwood. That is basically what Sabean does, and he keeps some and trades some to fill needs. Sometimes we wish we could get some of it back (see Joe Nathan) but for the most part he keeps enough piled up that we have enough to get us through. And just yesterday he spent a couple of arms to fill our 2b hole.

Pitching depth.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 10:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

haha lottery!

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

This x10000000000000

The fact the Gints’ best starter is someone who hadn’t thrown effective major league innings in about four years is proof positive of the horseshoe sticking out of their ass.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

They also have a pretty great pitching coach

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

and a humidor that they use for balls when they pitch but not when they hit

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Pitching coach!

I used too fume that La Russa (hate him almost as much as Lasorda) had Dave Duncan. Now that we have Righetti, my jealousy is not so white-hot anymore.

But I will grant the luck involved with coming up with Vogelsong.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't go quite that far. I mean, their pitching does make it possible to win those close games.

(Combined with playing in a park where pitching is more effective.)

But the Rockies have used how many starting pitchers?
Ubaldo
JDLR
Chacin
Hammel
Cook
Nicasio
Rogers
G. Reynolds
Mortensen
Johnson

and I might be forgetting some.

And John Maine was also acquired as rotation insurance, but he didn’t work out. And Paulino was rotation insurance, but ended up as a reliever and didn’t work out. And Brothers and Daley were relief insurance at the beginning of the season, and Lindstrom was closer insurance…

The Rockies did stockpile pitching. The depth just wasn’t enough to cover the injuries (and changes from past effectiveness from Hammel and Cook).

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

No team in MLB has been forced to use as many starters as the Rockies have this year.

But it’s not injuries, it’s just how this untalented roster was put together.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

The pitching, though much-maligned on occasion,

has not been the problem. Most team pitching numbers are improvements over last year.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

I generally agree with this

But it’s going to lead to what happened in the 2nd half of September last season, where our bullpen was gassed and wrecked by our starters’ general inability to go deep enough into games.

The real issue is with our lineup, not our rotation. Which goes further to why I think getting back a couple AA arms and Nova does not actually address the franchise’s needs, and creates a hole that doesn’t exist now.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's why

Jesus (Montero) is my homeboy.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

LOL.

Now, if he were only a 2B or OF….

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think you're focusing too much on the fit, rather than talent

If the Rox pick up the B’s, Montero, and Nova, I would view them more as assets than trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. In that scenario, the Rox would have a number of MOR starters in Nova, Nicasio, Friedrich, Bettis, etc. Combined with the glut of OF’ers that are at or near the ML level, the team would have a number of assets to be moved to fill holes, whether that’s an established starter, 2B, or 3B. Even Montero could be flipped in the right deal. This would fill a hole at the ML level, while also maintaining all the upside of the B’s. The key for me is the overall talent level here, not positions.

by mattrob on Jul 20, 2011 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right.

Trading for current need will get you what the Royals got for Greinke. A couple of good prospects, but nowhere near the best possible package.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

that's a good point

Baseball players are assets. Whether that’s used for MLB production or trade for other players to provide MLB production is dependent on the FO strategy.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

and that's with a revolving door on the 5 spot and Hammel regressing

so does that say the top of the rotation has been carrying the team?

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'd rather use 2009 as a baseline for "Rockies pitching that can carry the team."

Remember that point last year when half of the Rockies’ wins came in Ubaldo’s starts?

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, no injuries

… Nevermind. About fell into the ’chasm.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

but lets not try to add talent via trade

that would be dumb

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nicasio and Johnson were't "stockpiled"

they were emergencies.

Our stockpiled talent was Rogers, Paulino, Reynolds, Maine, and Mortenson.

Two of the four were coming off severe injury, the third never had successful starting experience, and Mortenson was seen as a poor man’s Cook — and that’s off a bad Cook year.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

The Rockies had to use their entire stockpile, and the seed corn they were going to plant next year, and the box of weird little emergency candies that they found in the basement from the days when it was a bomb shelter.

The Giants used Ryan Vogelsong, and he turned out to pitch really well.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

Ryan Vogelsong: One-man Stockpile

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great, now we have sympathetic Giants fans telling us why they're so good

What have we become?

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

He makes good points

let’s leave the rivalry aside, and get back to facing the enemy.

Whoever wants to trade/not trade Ubaldo

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not sympathetic really

Its just that your situation reminds me so strongly of the Giants v Dodgers situation in the 60’s. I wasn’t alive back then, but after becoming a Giant fan I always wondered how a team that had Mays and McCovey could lose to a team that had so few runs as the Dodgers. Now I know, and sadly, so do you.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right

And I much prefer the “why don’t the Rockies ever lose” sentiments at MCC than the “don’t worry Rockies, one day you’ll get to where we just were.”

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

And just about a calendar year ago

Sabean had a 3rd place team that hadn’t sniffed the postseason in 7 years and appeared to be going nowhere.

I’m not one of the people who write the Giants off as lucky – neither this year nor last year. They made some bold roster moves last year and almost all of them paid off. I don’t consider that luck – I think it was a team making tough decisions about some underperforming players and pushing the right buttons to replace them. But what I don’t get it is how a calendar year of success suddenly makes Sabean the genius who invented baseball.

Sabean has hot streaks and cold streaks like most GMs. He recently hit the jackpot on some starting pitchers that he drafted – not by luck, but through good scouting and good decisions. But it’s not like other GMs aren’t trying to do exactly the same. Sometimes those players materialize and sometimes they don’t. You act as if people here are supposed to slap their foreheads and say, “PITCHING DEPTH! WHY OH WHY DIDN’T WE THINK OF THAT?”

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

But this is a discussion about trades

And specifically about trading a star pitcher, and under what conditions you pull the trigger. You are right if I am coming off like some kind of Master of the Obvious, but the Giants had patchable holes last midseason, and were in a position to take advantage of luck in the postseason, because they had depth at pitching. From my perspective, the Rocks don’t have that right now, and if trading Ubaldo begins to deal with that lack, you should consider it.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not totally against it

But losing Ubaldo just blows too big of a hole in the roster. Never mind his 19 wins last year – without his innings, the Rockies don’t even win 70 games and the bullpen would have ended the season in body bags.

You’re exactly right that the Rockies don’t have enough starting pitching depth to compete right now, but it’s not because of misguided goals or philosophy. Jeff Francis was a #1 pick who quickly became the #1 starter on a team that made it all the way to the World Series. Then, he tore his labrum. If that happens the Lincecum tonight, you really don’t think the Giants miss beat? (Not that Francis = Lincecum, but losing your #1 is still losing your #1).

I’m taking nothing away from what the Giants have accomplished in the past six months of MLB games played – they’ve been terrific. But this isn’t exactly like the Braves pitching dynasty that ruled the National League for a dozen years. Go easy on the Sabean’s-got-it-all-figured-out talk. He’s had a few stretches in which he couldn’t find his butt with both hands.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, it's not that far off from the Braves dynasty

Lincecum/Cain/Sanchez is about as young and about as dominant as any Braves trio over the last three seasons.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

I get that

But the Braves’ studs just kept coming and coming and coming – to the tune of more postseason appearances than I can even count. That’s quite a difference from making one postseason appearance in the past 7 years, even when another is likely that another is likely to follow in 2011.

And again I’m not taking anything away from the current crop of Giants, who have performed exceptionally well. But this is six months of “domination” we’re talking about, not a decade’s worth.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Braves also had help from the rest of their division in that time.

And they had help from position players like Chipper and Andruw Jones that the Giants did not until 2010. If we’re talking pitching only, however, the Giants are probably the one current team that could rival that Atlanta group when we’re talking about long term dominance.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure I can put Sanchez in that group

He’s really only had one truly outstanding season (last year). The key for the Giants is that they replaced his production with an even more dominant Vogelsong.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ryan Vogelsong....

A Leibrandt for the 10’s!

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Even with Vogelsong's otherwordly 3.2 WAR this year....

…he’s still a career negative WAR pitcher.

Which just goes to show how little even the Gints had to have fairly expected of him.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

It makes me wonder whether there's something that the Giants scouts saw that isn't reflected in WAR.

A market inefficiency in scouting apparently washed-up pitchers, or luck? I have no idea.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

I doubt it

Most of their great pitching is young. Vogelsong is the exception, not the rule.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

No, they actually saw him as org depth the same way we saw Maine

I mean, he hadn’t pitched in the bigs since 2006, and at no time previous was he anywhere near as good as he is now. Even in Japan he wasn’t that good. He just took a pixie dust bath on the flight over and Bochy apparently hired an extractor to perform Inception on him.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

He's been good for a couple of seasons, and then outstanding occasionally

He’s actually kind of like Glavine in that regard, only with more walks because umpires aren’t giving him the Glavine strike zone. Vogelsong’s sort of like Steve Avery.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

Vogelsong's much more like Charlie Liebrandt

mid 30s player, not much of a distinguished career at all.

If anything, MadBum would profile closer to a Steve Avery, though he’s not really as good as Avery was before Avery started getting hurt.

Sanchez like Glavine? No. But also not entirely unlike Avery in the early years of the pitching dynasty. By his Age 28 season, Glavine already had three 20-win seasons and a Cy Young, not to mention four seasons of 200+ innings. Sanchez doesn’t go deep into games or into seasons, for that matter.

Comparing the Giants current crew to the 90s Braves rotation really does do a small disservice to the 90s Braves rotation. Because while Lincecum and Cain can fairly well be equated to Glavine/Maddux, there’s no Smoltz here, more a couple Avery’s and a Leibrandt.

Sanchez and MadBum have the talent to be as dominant, but they’re just both way too inconsistent to be considered at that level right now.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

C'mon Rox Girl

Are we seriously comparing Sanchez to Glavine?

Accoring to rWAR Sanchez has had just one season with a WAR over 1.2 (last year’s 3.6) and fangraphs fWAR says he’s never had a 3.0 season. His career ERA, FIP, and xFIP are also all over 4.00.

This is not even close.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Glavine had compiled about 20 WAR by this point (counting partial age 28 season)

including a 7.4 season.

Sanchez has compiled 5.5. For his career thus far.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

Once you get past Timmeh and Cain, the Gints rotation is, frankly, overrated.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

It would have been if it wasn't for Mr. Vogelsong

This is the part where he helped ruin this for me.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh, I didn't say they haven't performed well as a group

Just saying that the meme is that they’re like this awesome studly rotation, when it’s really just two truly great starting pitchers followed by a couple of well-hyped youngsters with promise (which even misstates it because Sanchez isn’t really young anymore, he’s 28). But the meme, like so many, is not accurate.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've been using BR numbers in this thread

Which indicate MadBum has 3.8 WAR, and 5.5 for Chacin.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes, both do.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't consider Bumgardner overrated

Simply because a lot of guys his age are still throwing on Friday nights as the #1 on their college team. He could very well be something spectacular, but it hasn’t happened yet.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

This.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

true story

but even then, their 4-5 are better than our 4-5

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

But not by design

No one, and no one thought Ryan Vogelsong was going to walk away with the Cy No-So-Young this year.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know Vogelsong was far more gone than DLR

But who predicted him becoming the pitcher he is?

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Vogelsong isn't a development story per se.

He completely rebuilt for a different game, then brought that back here.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

True story

but I’m saying that sometimes these things work out, for whatever reason.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Word.

But his story is pure crazy,

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

oh absolutely

God loves the Giants inexplicably more than the Rockies.

I mean, we’re CLOSER to heaven! like 5280 feet closer! Like us more!

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

But aren't the Rockies fans more Pious?

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

We are the chosen ones.

We must wander 40 years through the desert before we get a consistent contender.

:bannedforblasphemy:

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Going 56 years between WS championships has to feel great.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

WAT?!

Hmmm, well it makes sense we had to wait 14 years for our 1st WS. I hope we don’t have to work another 7.

Riding the rollercoaster that is Rockies baseball

by prettyinpurple on Jul 20, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

One the ones who drive a Prius

More of those in SF, I’m sure.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

yeah not #4 sorry,

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are thinking of Shabbos

I don’t drive my car unless its an emergency.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't roll, either.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

This sounds like the Six Million Dollar Man.

(The Six Million Dollar Man needed to get Scott Boras to represent him, I think.)

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is the key

At the start of the year it looked like we had Ubaldo, Chacin and JDLR at the top and the Giants wouldn’t have what Vogelsong is giving them.

Imagine if the luck was reversed. Imagine if instead of us losing JDLR for the season, they lost Cain. Then imagine that they didn’t have Volgelsong and we had a pitcher that came out of nowhere to pitch that well.

The Rockies would have Ubaldo, Chacin,, JDLR, a Vogelsong like pitcher and Hammel vs. the Giants Lincecum, Sanchez, Madbum, Zito, and who knows.

Neither the Rockies or the Giants could have accounted for what happed with Vogelsong or JDLR and it’s making an enormous difference right now.
You can’t tell me you don’t think we’d be leading the division.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

problem is more

their 4-5 is better than our 4-5-6-7-8-9-10

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

To expand on the Gints a little

As you say, a year ago Sabean had a third place team that hadn’t even made the playoffs for 7 years, much less the World Series. To use the lingo of the Ubaldo debate, they were on the borderline of “competitive”. They were definitely expected to be in the race, but they weren’t considered a World Championship contender at the beginning of 2010 by any means…

Let’s say at the beginning of 2010 the Yankees were desperate for pitching, and floating this exact package of prospects, or whatever was the equivalent then, for Cain or Lincecum. There would have been a lot of resistance to giving those guys up, but also a lot of people saying “we’re not winning with them now, we need to add talent to win”. If somebody had countered that with “we’ve signed Aubrey Huff, we’re going to call up our stud catching prospect, and then we’ll add Pat Burrell, Cody Ross and Jose Guillen during the season. Let’s hold the pitching together and see where that gets us”, I seriously doubt they would have gotten a lot of people nodding and recing…

Of course now, we all sit here and say “yeah, keep adding pitching, that’s the formula”, but if the Gints had been sitting in our shoes 16 months ago, I think there would have been a lot of people saying that they HAD to take the deal for the prospects, painful as it would be, because they just didn’t have the talent to win. And the 7 years of no playoffs were proof…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wow, great analysis and great analogy.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Getting that model to work also took an extraordinary amount of good fortune, though

Andres Torres, Huff’s 2010, the health of their rotation. Even now they’re a severely flawed team. I think modelling after their formula works about as well as hoping for a 2007 or 2009 type of comeback every two seasons. They happened to win a WS because of the crapshoot of the playoffs, we happened to lose in 2007. If I compare them to the Rangers as far as which model I’d expect to work best, I’d pick Texas’. Add talent via the draft, international FA and only occasionally the hard trade of a superstar, and eventually that stockpile of talent rises to its potential. Plus, you get enough talent and you can actually afford to lose significant prospects in trade to fill MLB holes. I think the Rangers are built far better for the long haul than the Giants.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:21 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed re Texas

for a franchise that was stuck in the mud for decades, what they’ve done the last few years has been very impressive…

My point with the SF analogy wasn’t so much that we should model ourselves on what they’ve done. It’s more about how incredibly hard it is to deal in absolutes about the future. Right now it’s pretty easy to say that we don’t have the talent to win and we need a big move, and it’s kind of hard to argue at least the first part. But SF could easily have said the same thing at the start of last year, and we know now that probably would have been a big mistake. Of course nobody knows how Cody frakkin Ross and Aubrey Huff were the magic ingredients to change it for them, but the fact is that they weren’t as far from winning it all as they appeared to be at the start of the year. For them, standing pat (at least against the hypothetical alternative) turned out to be the best choice, and that wouldn’t have been the expectation.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is a very valid point

but I think it may overlook the difficulty in actually putting together a rotation like the Gints have. How many other teams have successfully done that since the Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz Braves teams? I would say 1, and I think it’s safe to say we’re never going to have a budget like Philadelphia’s to work with.

The Giants have 3 former first round draft picks in their rotation. Three of THEIR former first round draft picks. They put a top 10 pick into Lincecum. We put an even higher pick into Greg Reynolds. They put a late first rounder into Matt Cain. We put a similar pick into Christian Friedrich. They drafted MadBum out of high school. We drafted Matzek out of high school. The rest of their rotation? Sanchez was a late 20’s round draft pick, and Vogelsong was the baseball equivalent of winning powerball. Twice. On tickets you found in the gutter. Not much you can emulate on either of those guys aside from the value of scouting and coaching, I would say… Oh, and they threw a bazillion dollars at Barry Zito. Let’s not do that, please.
 
I understand sn530 is saying that you have to keep stockpiling pitchers. Obviously, the Gints have brought in more than those 6 pitchers. Sometimes they pan out, sometimes they don’t. But if you look at teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, with their budgets, you can see just how unlikely it is that you’re going to put together a rotation like the Gints. It’s a great idea on how to compete, but I’m not sure it’s realistically achievable enough to really rely on as an all out plan.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is also a very valid point.

But the Rox have accomplished virtually the same, in that they originally signed and developed Jimenez, Chacin, and Nicasio

Nnot trying to say these three are as accomplished yet as the Gints three former first round picks, however, they can potentially get to be that good as Lincecum/Cain/Sanchez, and it’s an arbitrary differentiation to separate out US draftees versus international signings.

Cain was drafted six years before Friedrich, so the two at this point simply cannot be fairly compared. You can compare 2005 Cain to 2011 Friedrich. Shockingly enough, their numbers aren’t that incredibly different there.

It’s a reasonable suggestion that we have put together a rotation like the Gints have, we’re just a fair bit earlier in that timeline still.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

I didn't intend to separate

US from international signings. I was just profiling how the Gints put their rotation together, and there weren’t any international signings. I would put our international guys into the same pool that Sanchez and Vogelsong came from for them. Late US draftees, international signings and pure dumbass luck shrewd signings of reclamation projects all are pretty reliant on good scouting and development first and foremost.

And of course you can’t compare Friederich to Cain today. Or MadBum/Matzek, for that matter. I was making the comparison based more on projection of where Friedrich is apparently likely to end up, and with God knows what will happen with Matzek. But you’re right – down the road we could still possibly have those two pieces in our system.

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would move Ubaldo up a class

He caught the eye of at least the Mets, if not other squads. That could be the international equivalent of a highly-touted, early round draft pick, couldn’t it?

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

You can't put our international signings into the Vogelsong pool

He was a washed up castoff. He comes from the John Maine gene pool, so to speak.

I’d go further and suggest that it’s even harder to put together a rotation as good as our is all by international signings of 16 year olds. Because oh so much more can go wrong between then and the majors than, say, picking college pitchers, or even high schoolers who were typically scouted by several teams, and not just one buscadore or whatever they’re called.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

A pouty Giants fan...no way

They start them young in Giants Nation

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by bishoPurple on Jul 20, 2011 10:08 AM MDT reply actions  

zing

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

That actually made me so mad

They ended up giving him a ball for throwing a fit. How dumb! Kudos to the other kid though.

by MissR on Jul 20, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure

he’s accusing the people in front of him of cheating. Jon Miller will no doubt be giving interviews on how credible the charges are any day now…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

It seems like the missing point of this Ubaldo trade debate

is whether you trust Dan O’Dowd or not? I’m not taking any position on this, but it seems like this really boils down to a trust issue.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:19 AM MDT reply actions  

time for trust exercises…everybody gather around catch somebody falling…

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

I got burned on that once

and really….I think this boils down to whether you trust O’Dowd to make the right decision or not.

On the one hand the Rockies farm is full of unfulfilled promises and overvalued prospects.

On the other O’Dowd pulled off a successful Matt Holliday trade.

Like I said I’m not taking a position on this….but….

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions  

so....you would fall on the "trust" O'Dowd category

you trust our GM to make the right decision.

Those who are on the other side tend to think differently it sounds.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's going to screw the team or its fans over in dealing the greatest pitcher in franchise history.

Which is why I still think the chances are slim that a Jimenez trade gets made at all.

Separately, however, I don’t know if I trust him to figure out a viable alternative solution to the talent gap that I see forming between us and a couple of the other teams in the division. I think the Rockies are in a fix that a creative solution is needed to right the ship, or we may be waiting for 2014/2015 and beyond before the division is again within reach.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

We are hitting the wall

The youth movement has hit a natural wall. The Rockies have to find a way to balance it with a more active approach in free agency. While the Rockies are active they need to be in the discussion for some of the talent even if it is just to let talent know that you don’t have to be 22 and in the Springs to play here.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with this notion

It seems like supplementing you existing talent with a sprinkling of “not” bargain basement free agents (Hello Jose Lopez) would probably be a viable solution.

Would that happen though? Doubtful

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

sadly, there is nothing bargain basement about Jose Lopez

He had plenty of talent, and he has a sizeable contract that we picked up.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

Lopez wasn't a free agent.

The problem is that free agency requires a lot of risks with money that could hamstring the franchise’s abilities to sign other players going forward, and if Mike Hampton taught us anything, the one place we shouldn’t trust O’Dowd is with trying to make an impact for the team that way.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's all risk...just in different ways

prospects are risky because of time investment and lack 50/50 shot of panning out

Free agents are a risk because of money.

Which risk do people value more?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

As a mid market, we can't bear the inherent risk of the latter.

Prospects are our only course, and we don’t have enough impact talents coming through the system right now.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

so...in turn...does that outweigh the risk of trading a legit ace

for alot of unproven prospects?

Receiving a Hershel Walker like trade increases your odds of getting one or two legit major leaguers….yet…do people trust the scouting department enough to make the right decisions?

So essentially does a trade like that make it idiot proof?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

It becomes close to idiot proof the more you add into it.

Mark Teixeira and Dan Haren show that a six for one ratio is about right to get to this point.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions  

Okay, so let's go get six for one and go over that set of names

That can get it done.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with this...

I think O’Dowd does too. I don’t believe that he was just looking for those three marquis names plus Nova from the Yankees, but those four are the big fish close to the MLB, so they’re what we talk about.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

But if they're going to add two...

they need to fill actual current ML holes, imo.

Which is why I think it requires Gardner to get it done. And I wouldn’t necessarily object to throwing Fowler in on the deal, even if that makes it no longer 6:1.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

It might wind up looking something like this

with Fowler or Blackmon going back for Gardner. Given statements about O’Dowd also wanting “somebody to dream on” the sixth would actually be a low level, high upside prospect.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Crawford

Crawford is a bust so far in Boston, but how cool would it have been to at least have been in the discussion until the Yanks and Red Sox go all crazy, and who knows? If I am a hitter and outfielder with speed, this ain’t a bad place to play.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

That's why

I at least have Ubaldo’s name out there. DOD has to do a job based on what money and pieces he has to play with. If he trades Ubaldo and gets nothing in return, he’s not only done here, he won’t get another gig. It will be too big a mistake.

If he makes it and the Rockies end up with a great surplus of talent and over take the rest of the division, he’s the gm of the year.

Either way, he knows this is his make or break year decision-wise. By allowing Ubaldo’s name to get out there, he is acknowledging a deeper issue with the team that he feels he needs to address. I’m sure he is trying everything possible to do it withouy using Ubaldo, but he may not have other bullets. I feel for him, but it could be worse. He could be in Oakland.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

I must say this....I tend to think that O'Dowd

has done a good job considering the restrictions the ownership has placed on him. Maybe we are hitting that natural wall that comes with that self imposed cap?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

that self imposed cap is based on what the club can afford according to its revenue

Teams get in trouble when they have no discipline in this regard, whether it’s by paying FA’s or greedy owners.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree

The Rockies are unique in signing under prime age players to long deals. They are seeking to avoid bad deals for past their prime guys like Helton, who as proud as we are of him doesn’t justify that type of contract.

There is wisdom and risk to this, but a 2-3 year deal does not have the same impact of a five or six year deal. That’s where they need to be more active.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

So is this the natural "mid market" wall?

I say self imposed cap because that is legitimately what it is. Can’t describe it any other way.

Like I said, DOD has done a fantastic job all things considered. Even if he made a big mistake would the Monforts fire him? That’s another subject all together.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, he wasn't Neagle'd.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

haha

I can’t even say what I’m thinking right now.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

that's a question for the debaters to answer

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

pretty much don't have a choice in that.

If he messes up with our trust, we’ll let him know, though.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Still don't think the talent issue has been answered

There are many who say the talent is there, other’s like me who don’t. Where do you see competitive talent. JDR is a non factor until at least next year at this time and probably 2013.

That leaves a big hole in the rotation, holes at 2b, 3b, of. The relief core is going to take a hit, though you can sometimes rebuild it quite well on the fly like Tampa Bay has done. You have to stumble between confidence and fear at 1b and catcher because of the age of one and inconsistency of the other.

Now add to that MLB wants the Dodgers to be a premeire team and on the other side of their mess is another Yankee Red Sox payroll in our division, the improvement of the D-backs and Giants.

The Rockies need a talent infusion somehow… how do you get it?

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 10:20 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Japan or Cuba

I know a guy who knows a guy

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm reccing this post

because the Dodger point has not been made yet.

We’re on the verge of becoming a team built around three stars that will never sniff a division title.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

Chacin?

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not ready to include him yet.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Chacin - now I lay me down to sleep

/Please G-d can I please make Muzia’s star list….. pretty please

xFIP thinks he is a good as Ubaldo. Stupid home-runs.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

I love the kid, and think he'll probably be a very good pitcher long term

but he’s not a star yet.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

xFIP says he is better than Ubaldo, JDLR and Cain over that last two seasons

how about now? ;)

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

He's been two different pitchers the past two seasons

If he stays at his current pace, then absolutely. I think 2011 Chacin is far more sustainable long term than 2010 Chacin.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not sure this is what you are thinking when comparing the two different pitchers but

I hope you are right and the Rockies get the 2011 version because other than the homeruns he is a better pitcher

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's also right in line with his minor league numbers

I’m excited about 2011 Chacin for the future.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

Any pitcher coveted by the Yankees.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Since we are talking about Muzia's Star here I think it is

Alternative rock band formed from the group Opal….. wait that’s not quite right.

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

The CLASH at Demonhead!

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

if the season ended today

He’d have 2 seasons with top-5 lowest season ERAs for the Rockies.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

If the season ended today

I’d get a lot more work done.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec'n that!

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

after two full seasons, then I'll happily talk about it

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

He's been pretty fantastic

but I want a bigger sample before calling someone a star on the level of Tulo or Cargo.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

His first 1.5 seasons have been quite a bit better than Ubaldo's were.

Even if not nearly as electrifying.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

I won't disagree there

but someone asked above, what do you consider a Star?

And besides, doesn’t Cargo have just over 2.5 seasons, only about 1.5-2 of those being at Star level?

Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

How long has Cargo been at that level?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

cargo was *the* top prospect of 2 organizations

the man was traded for dan haren and matt holliday

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

if the season ended today

we’d miss the playoffs the second straight year

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

You miss all the good debate lately

by the time you get here, we’re all tired

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

i know

by 2 the rockpile’s done, and i’m not awake before like 11 most days, and i have to go to the gym, drive around my cripple stepdad… it’s downing my vibe

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

So 1000 comments by noon today?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:20 AM MDT reply actions  

ehhh 2 p.m., busch league

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

I really blame this season on Jorge's ligament.

BTW it was great to see Jorge standing in the dugout squeezing a baseball. Glad his rehab is progressing nicely and I can’t wait for his return and a Dominating Jorge.

"It ain't over 'til it's over." Yogi Berra
"Boys, baseball is a game where you gotta have fun. You do that by winning."
Dave Bristol
"First and foremost, we want to win the Western division" Jim Tracy
"That would be really special" Roxman

by Roxman on Jul 20, 2011 10:22 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

if Jorge was here

we would probably be 5 games out and just teasing us into thinking we have a chance

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 10:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

That combined with the Giants tripping into the Ryan Vogelsong gold mine is a huge part of the season

Going in, it looked as if we had more pitching depth than the Giants.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

No it didn't

Even granting that Vogelsong is found money, any way you look at it, the Giants had more proven talent, and more prospects in the minors, both starting and relief, than the Rockies.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

I do disagree with you on their prospects.

Beyond Wheeler, they don’t have likely impact pitching coming up. The D-backs are very deep in this regard, though.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Astros scouting department disagrees

They thought enough of two minor leaguers to deal a solid 2b.

by sn530 on Jul 20, 2011 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Giants no longer have those two, correct? That's not a help to their depth.

And I really don’t believe either are to the impact level I’m talking about.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't understand why this changes the equation so

You take out one of the Giants top 3 starters and they look completely different. Ubaldo, Chacin, De la Rosa and Nicasio has a chance to be a much better rotation than what we had in ’07 and ’09……..

Hammel as a 5th starter really isn’t all that bad. He’s been a league average pitcher for 3 years.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

was this reply meant for me?

I’m not sure how it relates to what I was saying about the Giants lacking impact pitchers on their farm. I’ve been on record as saying that I think their pitching is at or near a peak because of it. I worry about the D-backs more going forward, it’s going to take a lot of failure in their system to keep them from being at the top of the division in pitching in the next three to four years. If the Giants suffer a major injury, it could happen sooner.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

in addition to wheeler

take a look at eric surkamp’s numbers in AA. and Heath Hembree is one of the best relief prospects in the minors. obviously i wouldn’t expect fans of other teams to know our minor leaguers like we do. but we have more pitching than you realize.

by you'vejustbeenCAINED on Jul 20, 2011 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm aware of Surkamp and Hembree

and they are not out of the ordinary across all systems. Again, it’s nothing compared to the list that the Diamondbacks can put up.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

eh, i'm not scared of the dbacks yet

none of their pitching has really proven anything. isn’t one of their main pitching prospects still coming back from TJ surgery? so who knows if he’ll be the same. and while trevor bauer looks good, he’s projected as a #2/#3. basically Timmy Lite. given what we have in proven pitching combined with how young it all is, compared to what they have sitting in the minors… i’m not shaking just yet.

by you'vejustbeenCAINED on Jul 20, 2011 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

In the minors, none of our teams compare to their arsenal

It sort of reminds me of 2007, when there was this one team that had this guy Sanchez and another named Timmy something in AAA, and just drafted a pair of really solid looking high school pitchers with the #10 and #22 picks in the first round of the draft. I think they too had a pretty decent young starter already in the majors…

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

I still am shocked by that,

but like sn530 says, luck with him aside, the fact is that they have him and others contributing.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Don't disagree

The reality of the last three months is repulsive but the silver lining there is that just as quickly as all these unforseeable things broke in the Giants favor, they could also break in the Rockies favor going forward. Not that we should be counting on that but I think it’s reasonable to expect that things will not keep breaking this poorly for the Rockies going forward.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

One note:

After this disaster of a season I’m actually even more grateful for the Tulo and Cargo off season deals. If it wasn’t for that then we’d be fighting off rumors for them too before the deadline.

by CarRo2010 on Jul 20, 2011 10:57 AM MDT reply actions  

If it wasn't for that....

Jeter would have never gotten 3000 hits, because Tulo would have replaced him by now, and Ivan Nova would be starting against Tim Hudson tonight.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

Any leadoff hitters we could acquire?

Is Bourn available?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:09 AM MDT reply actions  

What's wrong with Cargo leading off?

IF Wheeler turns out, you’d have the power depth behind him.

There isn’t a better lead-off guy in the league (ignoring Reyes’ fluky year)

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm with you

He just plays better in the lead off spot. I think it fits his personality. Let him do it while he has the wheels. Get a power guy in the 3 hole.

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

He was an incredible hitter in the 3 hole last year

I don’t think it matters where he hits. But, a guy with that kind of power and speed at the top isn’t matched around the league.

IF Wheeler turns out to be a + hitter with + power this is a loaded line-up.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

no if wheeler turns out its an Average lineup maybe slightly above average, now the red sox lineup is loaded, that lineup would be average or slightly above average

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't buy this

Park adjustes stats don’t work for this team.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

How is it an average lineup if Wheeler turns out?

You’d have above average hitters at 6 of 8 positions. With guys at 2b and 3B who’ve been around average for their positions in their careers.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

well I’d rather pair up Tulo and Cargo in the lineup so they would have to pitch to one or the other, and if we had a good leadoff hitter, then Cargo could hit him in, instead of waiting for Wheeler to hopefully turn out

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

You don't want to wait on Wheeler

because you want to trade for a classic lead-off guy?

I don;’t get it. Pitching to Helton or Tulowitzki is not a fun proposition either.

If you have two power bats behind those guys it’s scary.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

Keep in mind Todd has like 1 year left

So then it will be
Cargo
____
Tulo
Wheeler?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

and this is banking on Wheeler hitting his absolute ceiling in the majors

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

exactly

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Absolute cieling

Seems to me that he would have a superstar cieling given what he’s shown this year. He can end up short of his cieling and be an above average hitter.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

Wheeler's ceiling isn't as a superstar given how much he K's.

He’s going to have a fairly low average. He could be a Nelson Cruz, though, which isn’t bad at all.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

Cargo K's a ton and won a batting title though

I’m not expecting superstar but I wouldn’t eliminate it either.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

Cargo is special

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

Of course

We’re talking about ceiling though, correct?

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Sure,
but Tim Wheelers ceiling doesn’t include a batting title…

Final Note,

If we are banking on Tim Wheeler to solve the lineup…we are screwed

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Solve the line-up?

Right now we are 6th in team WRC+ with career low years from Stewart and Fowler and below 2 year trend production from our two best hitters.

You see a little normalization and add a quality bat, we’re one of the best offenses in the NL.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

Seen our record? Dont really care what the stats show…all i know is we need improvements. We have the most hitter friendly park in the league and we should be first

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

these things are shocking to me

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Coors Reverse Effect will always

hinder our production on the road and mitigate our numbers at home.

We’re a good offensive team that will get better with what we have now. Plug a hole or two and we can be excellent

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's what happens when you rely too much on stats.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

exactly

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

As opposed to what, "intangibles?"

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

As opposed to realising people are people and not numbers.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't hold anything against you. if you do that's your problem.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

But it does make a point.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

This RP is way too serious today

this should be green dang nabit

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Now you're punching and you're kicking and you're stabbing at me

I’m relying on your common decency. So far it hasn’t surfaced, but I’m sure it exists…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

The stats vs. intangibles argument just reminds me of

this

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

hahahahahahaha

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

I never said that.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's where you go if you rely only on eye tests.

There’s a need for more than both that and stats in player evaluations.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agree you can't rely on either in isolation.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

sounds familiar

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

the fact of visual confirmation

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

The intangibles

that led the team to fantastic second half comebacks in 3 of the first 4 years no longer exists because of a bad first half?

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

visual confirmation that if you watched this team so far this year you know that they are not very good, so whatever stats say, still doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t very good and they have a losing record

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

the key is what you indicators you use to predict the future

3 of the last 4 years you could have said the EXACT same thing. So, from a tangibles pov, I don’t see your argument. The Rockies core of players have proven their intangibles in nearly identitical situations.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don’t really care about intangibles or tangibles…and I never said anything about intangibles…

The Rockies aren’t very good, plain and simple. THey have a losing record.

Are the Rockies good this year when you watch them?
Do stats suggest they are good?
And do stats change their place in the standings?

I know what I see…I know what I saw last year…

All teams go on runs throughout the year, good ones, bad ones. Rockies had big runs some of the years. Packers went on a great run at the right time…same as the Rockies…doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t very good right now. And if they are that good in statistics 6th in ERA and 6th +RC and still have a record that they do now, suggests that they aren’t very good

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

No

It suggests that they will improve their record. Where were you when the Rockies were “bad” in 2007, 2009 and 2010?

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you ignore the stats

and just look at the standings

how do you fix it?

Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you constantly look at stats

but never look at the standings, and stats suggest it is good? Do you just let it be?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Netflix!

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Always try to find better or suck as a GM

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

i'm going with the eyeball test

and say the occasional 12 run outburst is inflating the offensive numbers.

and the occasional 7 inning 0 ER by Nicasio or Chacin is covering up the 4 1/3 6 ER by Cook.

we need to, you know, fix that.

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

FIRE JIM TRACY!

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not saying stats don’t have their place at all, sabermetrics and what not are great for the game, but consntantly relying on stats to say a team is good or bad seems crazy to me.

We are losing and sucking, but we are 6th best in NL in some weighted statistical category, so okay thats good, cheerio

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

It suggests that the individuals are performing to expectations

I mean, we’re obviously missing the fact that the Rockies kick the crap out of the ball like 1 out of 5 games and then scrap and fight the other 4, to varying degrees.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

it's right at 3.5

the median lands between 3 and 4 on our runs scored this season

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

just pulled up the season results on BR

sorted by runs scored, and counted.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

ah ok thanks

I wanted to compare it to other teams but that seems like too much work

: P

by purplesocks on Jul 20, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

The problem is there is no predicting the future !

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Exactly...

   “Tribulations are God’s blessing on you so you don’t get bored to death.” my Grandmother

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wrong

Giants will win one run games on bloop walkoff and the Rockies lose at a rate that they shouldn’t with their talent.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

History proves time after time

That the vast majority of teams with the Gaints win % should have a much higher run differential.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

thats why I think the Giants have some sort of witch doctor in their bullpen pitchers beard

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

So you are

willing to admit it’s an outlier?

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

The witch doctor or the Giants Run Differential?

Because obviously the giants run differential should not match the record, but they win because they have great pitching.

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Brian Wilson is Chris Angel

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

poor Chris

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

They are 10th now.

Their record is 5th, but the others around them have similar run differentials. I don’t see that big discrepancy.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

They have the same record as Atlanta

and a run differential 35 runs lower. and 50 runs lower than Texas who has the same record. That’s enormous.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great.

Cleveland and Detroit have lower run differentials. St. Louis and Tampa Bay have higher run differentials. That’s awesome.

Either way, the Giants aren’t doing this by luck.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cleveland and Detroit are also six games behind the Gints in the standings

which sorta proves the point.

St. Louis is a Ryan Franklin away from having a record more like what the Gints have.

It’s luck when your best performing starting pitcher of this season was pulled off the “former Japan pitcher scrap heap” at the age of 33 who hasn’t pitched in the majors in five years, sucked his entire major league career prior to that, and suddenly wakes up at 33 and knows how to get hitters out?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

They're also playing with Posey and Sanchez down.

They’ve had good breaks and bad breaks, as all teams do. They are still competing because they have a good organization.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

And Posey's injury is unlucky.

They’re not relying on luck either way.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Their record is better without Posey

I don’t think he’s as important to that team as the Giants want you to think.

Compare that to the Rockies record after JDLR went down.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really?

Because my definition of a very important player is one who the franchise would struggle without for a long period of time. Posey is clearly not that player – If he was the Giants would not have a better record without him for what is now approaching half a season.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

So. A-Rod is going to be out for the Yankees.

If they Yankees have a slightly better record without him, it proves that he isn’t a very important player?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't see how ARod helps your case here

In 2009 he missed 38 games from hip surgury.

The Yankees went 82-42 with him and only 21-17 without him.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

My point is that

correlation is not causation. If A-Rod missing doesn’t hurt the Yankees right now, it doesn’t mean that he isn’t great. Nor did it explain that he was great when they missed him in 2009.

There are many other factors to tie into a win/loss record. Buster Posey had a 3.1 WAR last year. That was 3rd out of the position players on the team. He was leading his team in position WAR when he went down. That’s important.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well ARod is not as good of a player now as he was even two years ago

And I don’t doubt that Posey is important, I just think he’s not nearly as important as the Giants want you to believe. Obviouly others have stepped up, but they don’t look like that much of a different team with him gone.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I understand now.

Winning 70% of your one run games just means you “know how to win”.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

No. It's just luck.

We’re actually much better than they are. We’re just unlucky and good, while they are bad and lucky.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone has said the Giants are a bad team

I think the argument is that what separates the Giants and Rockies this season is luck.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

11 wins of luck over 1/2 season.

Plus that lucky WS win last year.

I don’t buy it.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

From above

At the start of the year it looked like we had Ubaldo, Chacin and JDLR at the top and the Giants wouldn’t have what Vogelsong is giving them.

Imagine if the luck was reversed. Imagine if instead of us losing JDLR for the season, they lost Cain. Then imagine that they didn’t have Volgelsong and we had a pitcher that came out of nowhere to pitch that well.

The Rockies would have Ubaldo, Chacin,, JDLR, a Vogelsong like pitcher and Hammel vs. the Giants Lincecum, Sanchez, Madbum, Zito, and who knows.

Neither the Rockies or the Giants could have accounted for what happed with Vogelsong or JDLR and it’s making an enormous difference right now.
You can’t tell me you don’t think we’d be leading the division.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

As has been noted,

our pitching numbers are better this year than last year. It’s not the pitching that’s the primary problem. So, with JDLR, I still don’t think we are leading the division.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's because we've improved out bullpen some

And gotten better production out of 4th starter (Nicasio)

Just because the pitching is good now doesn’t mean it wouldn’t improve with JDLR.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

I also think that discounting injuries to

major players like Posey and Sanchez is not accounting for the fact that the Giants have also had bad luck.

More good luck than bad? Certainly.

But so much of an imbalance that we are actually just as good as they are? No.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sarcasm is such a wonderful tool.

We understand that you respect the way the Giants are doing it. That being said, when you look at the Giants stats this year and compare them throughout history to teams who have won pennants, divisions, or WS titles, you have to concede that the way that they are doing it is a statistical anomaly.

That being the case, 1 of the two things will happen:

1. Odds will come back and bite them in the butt, and they will come back down to earth and start losing those close games.

2. Teams will follow suit with great pitching, + defense, and horrible plate apperances and prove the “Luck” contingent wrong.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not suggesting that the Giants

haven’t had good breaks. I’m merely stating that it’s foolish to look at their team and say that they aren’t any better than us, they’re just lucky.

They are better. It’s not just a good luck/bad luck proposition.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

With Ryan Vogelsong in the equation and JDLR out of it

I agree – But the problem is, the Giants were lucky to arrive at that point.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Here is the equation with

Vogelsong WAR: 7.1

JDLR WAR (Best Season 2009): 2.2

7.1 + 2.2 = 9.3

Rockies are 10.5 games back.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

So we've already eliminated almost the entire Giant advantage with just two players

That’s not even including the Rockies underachieveing players and the Giants record in one run games – Two things we could not have seen going into this season and probably shouldn’t expect going forward.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

You could also look at it this way.

If you take the luckiest personnel situation with the Giants and the unluckiest for the Rockies. They are still better.

If you are just going to summarily dismiss any bad luck that the Giants have had or good luck that the Rockies have had, you’ll never see my point. Not until you take off the rose-colored glasses.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

We on the other side of this argument can say the same thing.

It may be wise for both sides to concede to agree to disagree because we aren’t going to come to an agreement.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

We've taken both sides into consideration

This issue here is that the weight of the Giants good fortune + the Rockies misfortune far exceeds the weight of the Giants misfortune and the pretty much nonexistant Rockies good fortune.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

At the beginning of the season

I would argue that the Rockies were equals to the Giants. They have been far more lucky injury wise and with the diamonds they have found in the rough.

At this point, taking into account the injuries sustained to both teams, and the resultant play because of that, I still have to say that the Giants have had luck on their side.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

How were they equals?

Beginning 2011:

Rotation: Giants
Bullpen: Giants
Catcher: Giants
1B: Push
2B: Giants
SS: Rockies
3B: Giants
LF: Rockies
CF: Push
RF: Push

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really?

I’ll give you Rotation, but would argue the Rockies had the Bullpen, 3B was a push if Stewart doesn’t get injured in ST, and our gloves in the OF put us over the top of the Giants roster.

But opinions are like…well you know this saying.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm being generous

to the Rockies on the OF Push as well. That is based on opening season expectations.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

lmao

So, you’re of the opinion that the Rockies are inferior to the Giants at all but one position?

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Check again.

Would you like to compare 2010 WAR? You might be surprised,

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're limiting it to 2010 WAR?

Besides, I see a lot of pushes with the Rockies having the biggest advantages between the two teams: LF and SS.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

LF and SS were for the Rockies.

If you want to use stats, that seems like the best way to talk about 2011 expectations.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I suppose if we went by 2010 war alone

Discount injuries etc. The Giants would win 95 games again.

Tha Giants had big years from career journeyman. Now they’ve lost their best position player. I mean, we are dealing with a number of factors here when comparing the current teams with last year’s team. If you’re willing to look at war, you should definitely be willing to look at pythogorean w/l and run differential

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

But the point was

to look at the two teams at the beginning of the season. That’s where that came from.

And, as noted, Giants were 4th in the MLB in RD last year.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, in a vacuum

Looking at the teams only from the events that transpired last year without any context, and you have the Giants winning 95 games and going to the WS. How can you make the argument that on one hand the Giants are good this year because of their war last year, and then on the other hand dismiss their decline in war this year (adjusted)? You cannot use both arguments.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

IS it just me or are there 65 games left

Or, is that not like represent 40+ % of the season

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I like (or should I not like it) this tweet from Dave Cameron yesterday
The Giants and Yankees both have 56 wins. The Yankees have outscored their opponents by 115 runs, the Giants by 17.

by purplesocks on Jul 20, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fat couch potato sells soul for a good baseball team

I’ve heard this one before…

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Giants have an expected W/L

A few games over .500 very similar to Rockies

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Gints are one Ryan Vogelsong from being a .500 team

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

How does this happen when you "rely" on stats?

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

People not being numbers tend to confound mathmataticle formula

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

I thought he was made of scrapitudiness

and Scooby Snacks?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Scooby Snacks?

No, those are Timmeh Treats.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

I took this in a really dirty way.

probably just my statistical bias towards wiener jokes.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

No.

Scooby Snacks are better associated with bongandablintz? if you take my meaning.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Actually you said at several points he was being used out of role and I think he's coming out of his slump. The whole team has been suffering in leverage so that's not just him.

If he’s so bad why is he still here and not EY on Nelson Or ’Fredo

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

He can field a position

If he’s so good, why isn’t he starting?

Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying he's bad for the team in his role...

But by the same token, if Iannetta was so terrible for the Rockies, why is he still here, and not in Boston or Tampa Bay or one of those new fangled places where they like stats and winning? Actually, why is Ian Stewart on the team right now and not EY2, Nelson or Fredo?

I guess I’m saying there has to be a balance. Players will have to prove or disprove what we see with our eyes in the stat book or you end up with a team like the Angels, with a lot of players that look good in the uniform but don’t really amount to much as a team.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree. I've espoused that Jon should be the small ball Ying to the preponderant Weaver ball yang around hear. I said he should have started opening day because he earned that and Jose did not.

 Players have to porve constantly. Inoticed the guys with the long term money weren’t doing so hot back in may either.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Herrera should start...

…specifically and only on those days when the Row is pissed off that he is.

Because it’s on those days that he gets two hits and a walk.

/AMart’d

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Let's just give you the benefit of the doubt here

(even though I have a feeling this argument is goind down quick)

How has the team’s intangibles changed from the last 4 years?

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

And overreact in mid-July?

IF the Giants sustain their unbelievable winning % in one-run games you simply tip your hat to them.

Teams with very low run differential that win at that clip in close and extra-innings game are very rare.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

And here we go....

/Grabs popcorn

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

thing is, there's a valid point to be made somewher

that this illustrates the flaws in some of the advanced metrics and their ability to really quantify a team’s results.

but really it this just confused me.

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

OF course

But teams very rarely have 65-70 win % in close games over a season, let alone repeat it in following seasons. It’s a simple outlier. And frankly, I still believe the Rockies can come close to overcoming it this season if it normalizes a bit (for both sides)

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Winning blowouts, losing close games?

Worshiping the holy trinity of Cargo, Tulo, and Ubaldo

by squalene203 on Jul 20, 2011 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Having Cory Blaser behind the plate?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

ERA+ doesnt tell the whole story

i’m finding ERA- to be a bit better since its debut

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

There is no precedent for a guy cutting his k rate

to decent levels as he ages?

280-290 hitter with 30-40 home run power is pretty close to superstar, iMO.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

Pretty close,

I think Cruz at his best is pretty close to a superstar too. And while there’s a precedence for guys cutting their K rate, it’s not likely. When people talk about ceilings, they talk about something that’s still within a likely range of events. Otherwise, David Christensen could be as much a superstar at his ceiling as Wheeler.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

Just so long as Wheeler doesn't turn in to Bourbon whom Texas appears to have given up on.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Texans will never give up on bourbon...

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I understand your point about semantics

I think we agree that he can be a psuedo-superstar, whatever that means. A middle of the line-up power bat with other tools

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

Look, this team is 8th in baseball in runs scored

and they’ve had pretty remarkeable underachievement across the board.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Uh, Seth Smith

Who is to say Todd has one year left?

Cargo, Tulo, Smith, Wheeler….. Iannetta is an above average catcher offensively. Combine him with Rosario…..

Ian Stewart is an average hitter for his career as is Ellis.

At worse, you’re looking at plugging a hole or two……

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Todd is signed for two more years after this year.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think he meant

2009/2007/2011 level of production.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well yeah, but as long as his back and legs hold up, there's no reason he won't come at least sorta close to it next year

Who knows by 2013?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right, I agree

I don’t like looking more than a couple years ahead, but we may have some internal options at the point if Todd is not an everyday player.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

as long as DLR

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

as long as DLR's elbow holds up, we'll be in contention for 2011

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Seth Smith has yet to prove he is a full time above average player (.7 WAR this year)
Todd is old, admit it.
Iannetta (.225 hitter)?

CarGo’s skill set is comparable to Ken Griffey Jr, power, speed, glove, average. How many times did teams use him as a leadoff? 30 plate appearances. 3 Hole or 4 hole? 9,916. Its just common to use a bat of his caliber in the 3 hole to give him an opportuinty to drive in more runs

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

I understand

THis is the first year Smith was given the full-time job out of spring training. It’s clear to me he’s an above average hitter with average defense.

War is a product of games played and plate appearances.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

I know he is pretty good, but he is not a type of player that makes a Tulo and Cargo lineup all of the sudden really good. in 1 or 2 years we are still looking at a hole at 1B 2B 3B and LF. Hopefully Wheeler turns out but we don’t know for sure he still strikes out a lot. Ellis likely gone, and Stew hopefully here but we don’t know. I think a good leadoff hitter would do this team a lot of good

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I think we can fill

At least one of those holes on the open market.

If that appears to be the need, I think it can be taken care of.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

interesting

fWAR has him at 1.9 WAR. TZ seriously hates him, UZR just seems him as slightly below average.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

Brad Hawpe's he's not

We know that for sure. Hawpe was the 3rd or 4th best bat on this team when we 90+ games.

Smith is a better player than that.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rosario?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Rather and best

I just think Cargo likes being the first name called and setting a tone for the game. He seems to shine better with that spotlight than in the 3 hole. I think that part will change over time, but he’s not a bad option

by brainteaser on Jul 20, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

he hit .358/.404/.664 last year in the 3 hole

I think his offensive rebound just happened to occur while he was batting leadoff, not as a direct result of it

by purplesocks on Jul 20, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

yeah I think he dang near won the MVP because he got moved to the 3 hole

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

Why is everyone still in here?

This new article put up by RMN is much more interesting!

READ ME!

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 11:09 AM MDT reply actions  

Not at all surprised that this didn't have any replies.

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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think he meant

my post, not yours.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

You know what I meant, ya jerk.

Her post did not start an argument, and it included a link to an article that likely won’t start an argument (but with this community, who knows). Hence, it got no replies.

And, with this comment, I’m sure an argument will ensue. FFFFFFFFF

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

I can't even argue with this.

BANNED.

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

FHWEE!

FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!
FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE! FHWEE!

/answering the paige

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 11:37 AM MDT up reply actions  

and yet it does now

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
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by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

Matzek back tonight

Might have missed this somewhere in the argument fury this morning. Sorry if it’s a repost.

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by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 11:16 AM MDT reply actions  

it was touched on in 3 of the 4 stories before the rockpile

Hasn’t generated a lot of talk though.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 20, 2011 11:46 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

I'm actually really nervous

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

So am I.

I agree with your assessment in that it’s probably the biggest minor league game in franchise history.

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

I shamefully saw that right after I posted

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

I hope the game gives us good news

and a reason to believe in the Rockies’ future pitching.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sounds like the Red Sox are making a push for Beltran

Can you imagine facing a lineup that starts…

1) Ellsbury
2) Pedroia
3) Gonzalez
4) Youkilis
5) Ortiz
6) Beltran
7) Crawford

OH. MY. GOD.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 11:16 AM MDT reply actions  

simply not fair

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

We need to trade them Tulo so they can have a shortstop ! (ducks)

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Can the Rockies get 2) 3) and 4) in return?

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

no; but you might talk them out of ellebury and Youk.

 I hold out for Pedroia and Youk

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ill take Ellsbury Lester Pedroia and Bard

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

Have you seen the year Ellsbury is having, quite impressive

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

Agree; let's fix 2b and 3b for sure for the next couple.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

tough to call A-gone MVP

when he’s 3rd hat on his own team

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Frankly; I think this season proved the core and philosophy of the franchise are flawed and imbalenced.

I would blow up a large part of the team to start over. Long term I still think Stewart is a bust and I’m still not happy with Ianetta.. Hammel has probably peaked and Cook should be a bad memory to the bank account. The team needs another centerpiece offensively because you can’t count on Todd much longer and Wiggy has proven to be what he always has been. Giambi is miscast on this team and as much as I love Spilly it’s time to replace him.
    We seem to have two impct bats in the system and that is not enough to fill our holes. One of those bats is considered a defensive liability too. That means you need more offense to compensate. Are vaunted pitching prospects are starting to appear ordinary. From that standpoint I don’t blame O’Dowd for shopping Ubaldo and I wouldn’t blame him for shopping Tulo either if that’s the only way to make the haul of prospects/players to balence the team.
    He only has himself to blame for painting himself in this corner.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 11:17 AM MDT reply actions  

It's noon.

We’re at 685 posts. Yesterday’s 1165 is going down.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 12:10 PM MDT reply actions  

Is there any "big" bats in the minors?

I was listening to someone on the radio awhile back and they were saying that the Rockies don’t seem to have any “Holiday-esque” big bats coming up…and it seemed like the organization is filled with small middle infielder type bodies.

Is there anything we can point to?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:14 PM MDT reply actions  

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

that's not Nolan Arenado

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Man, nobody’s going to think this is funny but me. Or Junction Rox, possibly.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Care to explain to the rest of the class?

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

That’s #7 PuRP Brett Tanos to you.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

(Look, I’m at work, all I’ve got time for is Cam’ron and Tanos jokes.)

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

How can you not disagree with that choice that much?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's not Wilin Rosario, either.

It doesn’t even look like Thomas Field.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Holliday wasn't a Holliday-esque bat coming up

We’ve got a few guys Rosario, Wheeler, Arenado that can make a big impact in the next year or two.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're talking above about Tim Wheeler

Keep in mind also that we supposedly didn’t have a “Holliday-esque” big bat in the minors when we had Matt Holliday in the minors.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm asking because I genuinely don't know. I have enough trouble keeping up with NBA prospects as it is

so I rely on you guys to keep me informed.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wheeler and Rosario should both be here this year, sometime

Wheeler is having one of the best AA seasons in recent memory, and Rosario is a quality catcher with plus power.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

what position does Wheeler play?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

currently the center fielder and leadoff guy in Tulsa

but he’ll be a corner bat in the majors

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Go sit in the corner Tim and bat

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

/FREE SETH SMITH

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

NGH

Accept and let go

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

So if he's legit you move Cargo back to center

and have him play left?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yep, that would be the basic plan.

Fowler’s on the short leash right now. If it were up to me, I’d call up Wheeler ASAP, though to get as long a look at how his bat would fare in the MLB as possible.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think the FO is ready to call quits on the season yet

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right and why should they be? I think they can accomplish both. Wheeler can provide a further lift to the offense.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting

thanks for the info guys.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

errr...guy and girl

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know, I think they should be at the point where 2012 and beyond is the priority.

Plus, in this case, I don’t think having Wheeler in Denver hurts our chances for 2011 anymore than leaving him in Tulsa.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

The real problem

is that we have so many unknowns in the offense, and only two spots to play them in.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

offense should read "outfield"

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

how many known "unknowns" do we have?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

well, in the OF

I’d like to see Smith get consistent starts against lefties.

But I’d also like to see Wheeler get consistent starts to see if he’s a viable bat.

But I’d also like to see Fowler get starts, to see if he is a part of our future plans.

Blackmon would have factored in before foot injury.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

If Wheeler's going to be a corner guy in the majors, then we're trading Seth Smith

Because the team’s made it clear Cargo is going to be LF, not CF. And if Fowler’s not good enough, then someone else will be in CF.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

How have they made that clear?

Cargo can play CF when Dex isn’t in the line-up it affords the team the luxury of playing power bats at the corner OF positions

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

They made that clear after Cargo's wrist injury.

Yes, Cargo is perfectly willing to play CF. The club is not willing to move him to CF just to give a AA player his first taste of big league ball.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

and Wheeler isn't a CF in the future anyway

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Which is why Wheeler means Seth Smith go bye bye if he is indeed THA FUTURE

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

You could easily have a Smith/Cargo/Wheeler outfield with Blackmon playing the role of Spilly.

Add a RH bat in there as a 5th OF and you’re golden.

Dex is the one in trouble.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree Dex is in trouble.

But DOD saw the future when Cargo hit that wall, and that future no longer included Cargo as a full time CF.

Dex is in danger, but that doesn’t mean Wheeler/Cargo/Smith, either.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cargo/Gardner/Wheeler

That is sexy.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I thought it was Wheeler Cargo Blackmon W/ Garner on the side

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Garner proved he can’t do anything

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

SSS

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

age and current OF depth in the system is very much against him

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agree; but will he out perform a two year older Spilly for backup?

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Spilly won't be here.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

And depending who else gets traded Garner still might?

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

He's saying Gardner.

As in Brett Gardner, in a blockbuster trade for Jimenez.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Different Kettele of fish. I would love Gardner's D and OBP on this team.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

And if we carry 5 OFs, suppose there's a chance Garner could be the fifth

But I find it not so likely he’s even kept on the roster after this year.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

haha I wasn’t serious…I must have been thinking about Chris Nelson, he had plenty of time to prove it hahaha

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cargo will make that play in LF just as easily as CF

it’s his style, and moving him just makes us weaker as a team

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think it's the club's perception, however, about ....

….how often these plays will happen in CF versus how often they’re likely to happen in LF.

I don’t know the math…I only know what the club actually said, which is that Cargo is going to be the permanent LF.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

that's when Dex was still a starter

That future looks hazy right now

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

that's when the team wasn't talking to NY and willing to trade the franchise's only ace in a Herschel Walker deal.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Why would the 4th OF be a LH?

That’s why Blackmon is the odd one out. This is where Dexter’s switch hitting ability and defense makes him an asset— a 4th outfielder on a team with 3 LH OFs

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Blackmon can play all fields

Wheeler and Smith can’t, at least not on a major league level

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Fowler can too.

The Rockies shouldn’t worry about handedness, though, and should just keep the four best players.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

Blackmon had little to no L/R split in the minors

and actually did way better against LHP in his stint before the injury. (SSS obviously) .900 OPS vs L

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by black_knight101 on Jul 20, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, I just thin conventional wisdom would stand here

Dex can hit the ball from the right side. Blackmon projects as an everyday of whereas Dex may be better suited as a super 4th OF.

I think Blackmon would provide more value in a deal, given Wheller turns out.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dex will also get more expensive faster

which also needs to be taken into account. Again, I think it’s important to just choose wisely between the two as to who helps the team the most and not go in with the organizational mind already made up.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

especially since OF depth is a system strength

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

No question about that

I’m just basing this on what we’ve seen to this point.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right and so can Dex

and he’s right handed.

Dex and Cargo can play all 3 of positions.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

I dont get this, there are plenty of walls in LF that cargo can run into. Is that what they are worried about?

He seems to be an above average CF defensively and his bat carries much higher value there than in LF.

by purplesocks on Jul 20, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Circumstances change.

Cargo said he was open to playing center if it helped the team when he signed. It was Tracy who gave him the deference of a set position as a sign of respect. They just switch that set position to center if the OF answer is Smith/Cargo/Wheeler.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

The real question

is how many unknown unknowns do we have.

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by Russ Oates on Jul 20, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hey, I'm the wise old owl here.

I know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop, and how many unknown unknowns there are. Don’t question me.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

That sounds unknowable to me.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Open Shrodinger's box

And the value will collapse into a real number.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

and the cat will fall out

maybe.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

but will it still be alive?

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

if not, will it bounce?

The next logical extension of Shrodinger’s box is Shrodinger’s dead cat on the floor.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

We know Seth Smith

Hard to imagine Dex being much better or worse than he was his first two years. I think he’s an excellent complement to the lefties on this team as a reserve OF.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pretty Much agree on this

Lets see if he can hit MLB pitching, We know we aren’t going to the playoffs this year if Dex is still Patrolling CF anyways. Lets see what Wheeler has.

It's Jim Tracy's Fault.

by wolf213 on Jul 20, 2011 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's unlikely

But we don’t know that. With this attitude 2007 and 2009 would have never happened.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

That is the thing

2007 and 2009 are the exception, not the rule. We can’t always count on some magical running putting us back into the playoff race.

It's Jim Tracy's Fault.

by wolf213 on Jul 20, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

No, we can't count on it.

But to out and out rule it out is almost as silly, especially when it’s happened twice so recently.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ovbi

That does not mean you dismiss the possibility, not with that track record.

Not apples to apples, but John Elway made a career of playing very average until the final quarter.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Holliday wasn't really even a Holliday-esque bat in the minors

Career .780 OPS in the minors. Doesn’t point to absolute beastly major league hitter.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm assuming the guy was referring to body type

big guy. I’m just assuming though

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not calling anyone big guy. lol....just re-read that

what I’m saying is the guy was most likely referring to bigger guys with big bats. Like Holiday was.

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

listen....I'm all for examining his body when I see him

ahem….

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

And Wheeler can put some muscle on

He has a nice frame without a lot on it where guys typically grow muscle with good off-season plans.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

once again...I'm volunteering for a body exam

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

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by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

i love you so much right now

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think it will ever work out between you...

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

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by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

shocking

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

not sure when this picture was taken

currently listed at 6’4", 205 pounds.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right

IF you want to profile him as a corner OF bat he can be “enhanced.”

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

he's no Jason Hammel on Spill the Beans but I approve

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
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by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Justin you mean

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Way more popular name

Riding the rollercoaster that is Rockies baseball

by prettyinpurple on Jul 20, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

As bench coach?

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

His name is Big G!

Riding the rollercoaster that is Rockies baseball

by prettyinpurple on Jul 20, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh. Yeah.

"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.

by glaucophane on Jul 20, 2011 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

At this rate

We are going to need an overflow Rockpile

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 12:46 PM MDT reply actions  

With a few exceptions,

yesterday’s and today’s rockpiles are very similar (though by the time I first checked in today, there were about 500 comments so I didn’t read everything). Geesh!

by MissR on Jul 20, 2011 1:00 PM MDT reply actions  

They're actually completely different.

Everybody switched sides today. It’s like a forensics match.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 20, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

ha

I thought this yesterday!

by MissR on Jul 20, 2011 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

"Mondo only argues for the sake of arguing; he doesn't actually believe a word he says"

/everyoneknowsthat

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Therfore Mondo is unbelieveable!

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Jul 20, 2011 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

You weren't the only one who's said it.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

(people aren't out to get you)

It’s a blog. It’s discussion, that can sometimes get heated, but I don’t think anyone in here wants you banned or gone.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree, but whatever.

I disagree not for the sake of it, but because of how often my opinions are trollrolled.

I understand you won’t agree with that; it’s fine.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh come on.

You’re a valuable contributor on PR.

@CentralCaliRox

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 20, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

You're a bit paranoid on this.

You frequently take strong polar positions in arguments, a natural offshoot of that will be strong opinions coming back from the other side, much more so than from people who take positions closer to the fence.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's not the polarity of the positions, it's how I'm perceived as not actually even believing in them

so my attitude about how I’m viewed here is merited.

I don’t expect people to not have strong opinions opposed to mine. I do expect to be granted at least the courtesy that I actually believe what I take the time to type here. I give everyone else credit that they actually believe what they say.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

I definitely think you believe what you say.

In one case, I thought you believed what you said too much, in fact, hence my delusional statement yesterday about what I thought you were expecting back for Lindstrom/Smith/Street. I think close to all people here do, and that statement that you don’t strikes me as a heat of the debate throw-away statement that whoever said it ironically doesn’t completely believe themselves.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

It just seems to be said in every one of those heated debates, though.

If it were just yesterday, it would be easy to let go of.

And few things strike me as more pathetic than someone who would intentionally spend any amount of time on an internet forum intentionally saying things they don’t believe in. That’s a sad ass life.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

You are quite outspoken

Stridency is fun, though. Without the outspoken, the internet would just be Rick Astley and meme faces.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's what you tell teh internetz

never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down.

Oh, and Rebecca Black.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tomorrow's Thrusday

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't know whether to ride in the rockpile or in the game thread

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

that's probably right

I wasn’t able to remember who felt which way (and clearly nobody knows which side they’re on).

by MissR on Jul 20, 2011 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tacos.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

I thought The Secret was one of Oprah's things?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

An interview with Tony Gwynn?

Or is it hotdogs?

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Did we ask if he'll be the next manager of the Rockies?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

As long as he gets Strasburg back.

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by Russ Oates on Jul 20, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

No.

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Damn, he's both available and has demonstrated some management success

albeit at the college level.

See? I’m feeding an answer to those who want to fire JT now.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm just trying to feed answers to those who need them ;-0)

I actually don’t think he’d ever work for a team other than the Padres, in the way that Cal Ripken ain’t gonna go work for the Reds.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tony Gwynn is the Messiah?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

is this Rockpile going to need an overflow? Were over 900 comments already!

How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Jul 20, 2011 1:11 PM MDT reply actions  

@jasonst: An official of team that checked in on Ubaldo Jimenez says we should stop talking about him b/c Rockies never had serious intent to deal him

That’d be ESPN’s Jayson Stark, there.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 20, 2011 1:20 PM MDT reply actions  

SHOCKING!

/MURDOCH’D!

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'll still see what happens closer to the trade deadline

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

It never was a likely thing. It still isn't.

It is an interesting topic of conversation, though.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

No question

and it may very well be the kind of thing this team needed. Change or the threat of change has proven to be an excellent motivator for this core.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

I fully expect some form of this to crop back up at the Winter Meetings

if it doesn’t reappear by the deadline

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I also fully expect Rosenthal will still claim 3-4 more imminent moves involving Ubaldo before 7/31

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

the whole thing is just like the Kevin Towers/Justin Upton situation

DOD threw Ubaldo’s name out there to see what his value is around the league. Both are very good players on good contracts. Now DOD knows. (likely) end of story.

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by black_knight101 on Jul 20, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dear Diary

What a day its been…

A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.

by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

DOD's gonna write a Fan Post

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

HAHAH!!!

I actually LOL’d.

TRUTH TO POWER PITCHING!

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

make that WATCH AND LEARN!

How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Jul 20, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think it's more than that.

Letting this leak also gives him an indication of what Joe and Jane Rockiesfan thinks of this, and as you can probably see from the last two days, their desire to keep Jimenez meets or exceeds their desire to improve the team by trading him. He now has to view Ubaldo as an untouchable, a tool which can’t be used in trade, which makes his job trickier, but that’s why he’s the GM.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

FTFY
TRY to improve the team by trading him

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

see, this is exactly what I'm saying.

There’s a significant amount of Rockies fans that would see any trade of Jimenez as an exercise in throwing crap against the wall, regardless of how likely to be a net positive the return would be.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

"an exercise in throwing crap against the wall"

Oh please get off your high horse. I am getting a bit sick of this condescending (If only those could see it the way I do) attitude today.

Everyone on the board realizes there is a potential for great return for Ubaldo but they also realize there is potential for that return never coming to fruition. You seem very certain the risk is worth it while other do not. You have your opinions while other have theirs.

/rant over, goes back to throw crap against the wall…

Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan

by dsmba on Jul 20, 2011 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec'd

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I get on my high horse often.

This should come as no surprise to anybody, at least I hope not by this point.

I’m very certain that there’s a point that the risk of Ubaldo’s future value to the Rockies is considerably lower than that of whatever is offered back for him in trade. At this point, I hope Dan O’Dowd pulls that trigger.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

I actually don't think hardly anyone disagrees with this at all

But that we disagree significantly on where exactly that point on the axis is.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not so sure.

I think we draw reasoned fans here, and the strong reaction of those is a pretty good indicator that there will be many without reason on the “no return could possibly justify this” side.

After drawing more out from you today, I actually don’t think our view of where that line of a return making this deal worth it is that far apart, by the way, I do think we have significant differences in our opinion of the futures of certain Yankees prospects.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Okay, yeah, I can see that.

Or maybe to even define it more narrowly…I think we have significant differences in our opinion on the odds that certain Yankees prospects reach their ceilings.

I certainly see why people are enamored with Betances, for instance.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

no, the condescending attitude is far more present in those who think that anything we get for ubaldo can NEVER EVER EVAR NEVAR be as good as him

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Possible that leaking it also sends a message to the rest of the team

That when he talks about “changes,” he doesn’t just mean Giambi retiring into the Special-Assistant-to-the-GM chair and Spilly joining the ROOT Sports team.

“Changes” means you guys have seriously underperformed and forced him to consider drastic measures to fix this team. And by the way, you still have time to convince him otherwise – so get out there and put together a stretch of quality baseball.

Maybe not, but it seems more likely to me than taking the fans’ collective temperature.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

IAWTC

Though I’d add, that those completely dismissing any part of it being taking the fans’ collective temperature are a bit misguided, because it does count for something. Just not a whole lot. But it’s not entirely irrelevant.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

absolutely it's not irrelevant, selling tickets is vitally important. I never disagreed with you on that.

Having the fans’ trust as well. I wish Rockies fans were more open that at some point, a possible return for Jimenez could benefit the team more than keeping him, but there’s enough backlash here for me to think otherwise. I imagine O’Dowd’s receiving the same message.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sure it counts for something

But I just think the fan reaction was fairly predictable. There’s been pushback, but it’s not like there have been riots or candlelight vigils on Blake Street. I don’t think O’Dowd has seen anything from the fans that he couldn’t have already assumed.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 20, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

There's only no riots because no one let us have our sit in at 20th and Blake yesterday

;-)

I’m sure DOD was able to gauge the likely fan reaction here without actually having to gauge it, but it probably gave him an idea how hard he’d have to work to actually sell this trade after the fact.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sooooooo....does that man no more 1250 post Rockpiles?

Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe

DenverStiffs.com

Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78

by Jeffrey Morton on Jul 20, 2011 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Just 1250 posts to Fan Posts by DOD

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

That would be awesome.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

/Ubaldo Hat on head

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

AH HA HA HA

SUCK IT ABERLE!!!!!

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

that really doesn't make sense given today's rockpile thesis,

but i just had it ready in case there was a trade.

Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.

by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

It doesn't make sense, but it's fun to say.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Save it for next Sunday

When he’s DFA’d and the Rockies win.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're just an April DFA of Aberle from being in 1st place.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

So is

Suck it Monkies!

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Rumor has it that Seattle is considering an equal swap for king kitty

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

See, that actually makes sense

Hernandez’ contract is much harder for that team to swallow right now (he’s due $58 million from 2012-2014), and Seattle sorta sucks out loud, though not as loud as a handful of other teams.

And as bad as they are, their attendance is 1/3 lower than the Rockies.

It makes sense to completely rebuild for them. They’re further away from being competitive with their current makeup, and they can’t afford him.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Doesn't mean WE have to stop talking about him..

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

Especially if we wanna keep the RP post count up.

I actually have work to do now.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's been a fascinating conversation

The Ubaldo Trade has actually opened up good discussion about the future of our franchise. I’ve really enjoyed it, as frustrating as it can be at times.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Truth to, ahem, power.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

As an aside, we're as out of the race today as the Twins were a few weeks ago.

Don’t look now, but if the Tigers lose tonight, the Twinkies are only 5.0 GB and closing.

Not time to fold up the tents yet.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:27 PM MDT reply actions  

uh... correct me if I'm wrong, but "as out of the race now as Twins were a few weeks ago"

implies we’ll still need a Twins like run and an Indians like stumble for the Giants, to be within 5.0 GB on September 1. That’s unlikely, and it still puts us in only a tenuously competitive spot at best with a month to go.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

and as long as 2011 Aaron Cook and 2011 Jason Hammel are in the rotation

that’s a very distant dream.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Twins were 16.5 out, so it's still possible

But the problem, as Muzia just pointed out is just as much the bottom of our rotation as it is the gap itself. Hard to make a run when you send out questionable starters half the time. We need the baseball gods to give Cook (and Hammel lately) a turn with whatever they gave Vogelsong.

I’m not gonna hold my breath.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

That would be Japanese steroids undetectable by American testing centers and witch doctor in their closers beard

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

And Ritalin

I know, that was an urban legend or something. But I’m still sticking with it as the only explanation for Vogelsong that makes sense.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

he must have started sharing with Zito because all of the sudden he is back from the grave

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

sure make it sound possible

pshhhhhh….don’t do that, people are already a tad bit crazy/freaking out around here

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

If 2007 was possible, this definitely is.

It’s just not likely, hence that O’Dowd should be focusing on 2012, and he should let the team and Tracy focus on salvaging 2011.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

u cant salvage the team and have tracy along…

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Here we go...............

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

hmmmm

what should I get….the Excedrin ….or my gun …?

by butterfly on Jul 20, 2011 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

I'll take the gun please

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

HAHAHA

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'll take the gun.

That way, I’m not necessarily taking the cure myself.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

And it's such a shame Cookie can't get that sinker working even at a fraction of what it was in years past

With an infield defense of Stewart, Tulo, Ellis, and Helton, he’d be fine at the back of that rotation.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 20, 2011 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

He's had it working to some degree in about half his starts...

…in some, he’s had that one really killer bad inning that’s killed the game, like 2009 Hammel used to do.

He’s clearly shaky, and on very thin ice. But I think it’s still possible he gets it together at least to the level of a #5 this season. Remember when we all freaked out about Ubaldo until mid-May? He turned out okay.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cook has shown signs to me

Once a guy like that finds his release point on that sinker………..

Cook can reel off some big starts for us down the stretch.

by rururuland784 on Jul 20, 2011 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

that can only happen if the team decides to go on a camping trip…and bond for a couple days

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

sleepover in the clubhouse?

Or paintball?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

sleepover in the rocks and trees in center field

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

think the grounds crew will let them have a campfire to roast marshmallows?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

hell yah…Fonz always has extra mallows with him

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

heeeeyyyyyyy!!!!

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Unlikely, yes.

But like the Gints, the Indians were simply not as good as their early W-L record indicated. The Gints are not 16-over-.500 good, given their actual peripherals.

So is it likely? Of course not. But is it really miracle-of-miracles unlikely? Not really.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Any Rowbots going to the game tonight?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 2:43 PM MDT reply actions  

isn't the real game happening in Asheville?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 2:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

"the future depends on it

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Is Betances starting?

/oof

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Anyone else listening to Dodgers-Giants?

Kershaw vs Lincecum, scoreless after the 4th

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 2:48 PM MDT reply actions  

Ever walked out to the parking lot and said

Where did my Cargo?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:48 PM MDT reply actions  

No, but I've worn Cargo shorts before.

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

I probably talk to Peyton twice a week

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

*year

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

hes mexican

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

How many kids you got?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

more than you

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

I heard you named your kid Ripken

…is that after Tulos dog or something?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

does he sit?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

That was the funniest thing

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

just once?

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

then someone spilled beans on them and I had to throw them away

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

CarGo has...once

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm related to Speedy Gonzales.

Riding the rollercoaster that is Rockies baseball

by prettyinpurple on Jul 20, 2011 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Lineup

Gonzalez LF
Ellis 2B
Helton 1B
Tulowitzki SS
Smith RF
Alfonzo C
Stewart 3B
Fowler CF
Nicasio P

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 2:56 PM MDT reply actions  

OMG I HATE THIS LINEUP

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

worst lineup ever fire tracy

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would reverse the whole thing.

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

id at least put nicasio in front of fowler

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

he was his bus throw under yesterday

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

you mean the whole thing wasn't Stew's fault yesterday?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

no, yesterday was clearly Tracy's fault. And Cook's.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's cook's fault

we didn’t get a shut out.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

trade Cook for a bag of marshmallows!

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

or for Dan Uggla.

Same thing. And would get us more shutouts.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting...

Nicasio
Fowler
Stewart
Alfonzo
Smith
Tulo
Helton
Ellis
Cargo

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

It would be fun to see this

once.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hey, it might at least confuse the Braves and give us a slight edge.

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

he wants to march to the beatin drum…left right left right left right left right

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

bigger gut must mean moar dingerz.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

THE ROCKEES DOHNT WANT TO WIN OH NOES

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Needs more Iannetta

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tracy hates Iannetta

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

who?

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tracy hates winning?

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh did I miss some controversy?

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

he's not latin or fiery

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

except for when he spikes his mask, calls the ump the name you can't call umps and gets tossed

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure that's never happened

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Damn. My real response should have been

Yes, but did he do it en espanol?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

But seriously. Did something happen that I missed?

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

just the sarchasm.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

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by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

just poking fun at the daily line-up complaints

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

not enough hog slopping.

Or maybe their parents coddled them too much.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

ok

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Is en fuego profanity?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

you could have googled Dan Patrick and gotten it quicker.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Day game after night game

he was either going to sit tonight or tomorrow…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 4:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

And since Todd's sitting tomorrow...

About time Tracy figured this out. Probably because Cook’s not pitching.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 20, 2011 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Saw this on MLBTR

Sounds as if the #Braves could be close to making a deal for a RH bat

tweeted by Dan O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Possibilities are Willingham, Ludwick, Pence, Francoeur, among others (including Spilborghs but I don’t see that…) Hopefully the deal doesn’t go through until they’re out of here…K-Rod to Brewers as we played em was bad enough

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:08 PM MDT reply actions  

maybe they'll trade Venters and Kimbrel for Pence.

unlikely, of course, but I wouldn’t mind that trade during this series.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind either

and the Astros porous bullpen would be set at the back end for years to come

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Scheurholz, rubbing hands together, Frenchy….Frenchy….Frenchy….will bring us championship

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Willingham is going somewhere before the deadline

Atlanta makes some sense, though not as much as SF

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Okay Wiggy and Spilly for Mike Minor

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Shah, we can do that trade.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Kershaw dealing

Dodgers have more errors than hits given up

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:19 PM MDT reply actions  

F that Matzek is going to be like Sandy Coufax + Randy johnson + Tom Glavine = best pitcher ever assembeled by humans

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

and reassembled by Mike Marshall

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

In all seriousness

Kershaw may be just that when all is said and done. Somehow he is still only 23…

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Isn't it amazing?

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

right now, I hope Matzek ends up an MLB pitcher

I honestly have butterflies before a minor league start. I can’t even imagine what he’s going through…

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Me too

Everything I’ve read about him says that he’s an awesome guy and wants so badly to succeed (explaining the frequent mental implosions). hate to see a guy like that fail

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

mom and dad always said go to college…

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

mom and dad don't have $4mil

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Welcome to PR, by the way

I’ve noticed you posting lately, but haven’t had a chance to formally say hi.

So, hi.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

everybody in class say hi to the new student...

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hiiiiiii steakman

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

HI STEAKMAN!

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

HI MARIA!

can you explain all the hot dog stuff I see connected to you? or do I not want to know

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

True Story: I love weiners.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

We've been pushing for her to change her handle to "HotDogLady"

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

"TubeSteakWoman"?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 20, 2011 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

i asked it once too, and then people treated me like a special ed student in a yale classroom

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

No I eat a lot of hot dogs,

and I love weiner jokes.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

also wieners

and hot dog jokes

Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Jul 20, 2011 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

He is my hero.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm a Kobayashi guy myself

but he’s been off the map for a couple years

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

So you liked The Usual Suspects?

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Put in a 10 inch bun?

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

it's a surprise anyone would wander into the mess that PR has been lately

(“mess” in a completely productive way)

(Just don’t tell my boss)

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not sure I can describe this site any better if I tried.

Rec’d

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hiiiiii steakman

"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy

by SDcat09 on Jul 20, 2011 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hi Steakman!

Do you like steak as Maria likes hotdogs?

Riding the rollercoaster that is Rockies baseball

by prettyinpurple on Jul 20, 2011 4:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I accept your hi and offer my thanks

I’ve been reading the content for a few months now and finally decided to hop in to give my two cents about the Ubaldo situation

by steakman on Jul 20, 2011 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

They just got one.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

dodgers don’t really grasp the team concept

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Keppinger just got a standing ovation in San Fran

that’s pretty cool

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

About those Gints...

they have one hitter in today’s lineup batting above .238.

How have they not been lucky, exactly?

And yes, even if this is their getaway-day after night game lineup, that still represents 2/3 of their position players hitting .238 or less.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:24 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Comments from Talking Chop
"#Braves high-A pitcher Zeke Spruill was scratched because of a minor injury, not a DL situation"

cottcoleman55 Scott Coleman
Same here. Totally serious. RT: "@CapitolAvenue If the Braves acquire Francoeur I’m done blogging about them."

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:26 PM MDT reply actions  

I don’t exactly know what the 1st one had to do with anything…. idiot

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

thats what I thought when I copied it, but then i re-read it

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

eh it's still relevant

Check out my blog about undergraduate science research

by black_knight101 on Jul 20, 2011 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jeff Keppinger just got to the game

They showed him meeting his teammates and shaking hands.

Moments later, Lincecum lost his shutout and the Dodgers took a 1-0 lead.

Clearly Jeff Keppinger is Giants Kryptonite

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 3:35 PM MDT reply actions  

Clubhouse cancer...

Where’s all your chemistry now, San Fran?

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

OH SNAP OH SNAP

he will ultimately battle Brian Wilsons bearded WITCH DOCTOR and PREVAIL BUT DROWNING IT IN MCCOVEY COVE

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

I can't tell if this is funnier because of the content or the capital letters

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Just what we needed.

The charge from 3rd place commences

I wanna see Keppinger in the stadium every day.

"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo

by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tigers just traded for Royals' Wilson Betemit

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:35 PM MDT reply actions  

was just gonna say it

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

couple nondescript prospects

young catcher with decent OBP skills and a young fringe pitcher

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

actually the catcher has no real skills. I lied.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

Schnaitmann's beyond the fringe...

and Massanari’s not exactly young. So, I say, uh, no.

by Rox Girl on Jul 20, 2011 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

cool sounding name, like an Italian golfer or something

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I really was kidding around

I’ve been raving about Massanari and AGAINST Schnaitmann for like a month now.

Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

lol schnaitmann is so bad

every time i see his name in the pebble reports, i just sigh

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 20, 2011 4:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

every time I write his name in the pebble reports, I just sigh

I feel bad for the guy, but he’s overmatched in Modesto.

Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics

by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 5:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

3,000

I finally did it…I’d like to thank my hot ass Girlfriend Minka Kelly up in the suite

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Jul 20, 2011 3:42 PM MDT reply actions  

nice work.

The Martha Stewart of processed foods.

Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.

Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -

My Photography Website

My Photography on Facebook

by hotdoglady on Jul 20, 2011 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm still 600 short of 30,000 on PR

Whew.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

At your pace the last few days

You’ll be there by Nicasio’s first pitch tonight

Ex Vice President in Charge of Leadoff K Monitoring of (Arguable) Fake Switch Hitters

Formerly Deputy Operations in Charge of Denoting Instances That Lanky Canadian Lefty's Were Scheduled To Pitch.

by Jeff Francis Day on Jul 20, 2011 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

if we game thread Matzek's start, I may get there before first pitch

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings

by Muzia on Jul 20, 2011 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

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Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AAA
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