Ubaldo and the worst manager in MLB
by neighborhood143 on Jul 20, 2011 8:56 AM MDT
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PrintHonestly, Jim Tracy, aside from his obvious and well documented "brutal in game managing"(Keith Law, ESPN top baseball analyst), also has shown a proclivity to injure or further harm his own players. Cases in point;
I wrote this comment here back in Dec. 2010;
What actually happened to Manuel
Jun 20 MIL L 6-1 0.0 3 5 5 0 1 0 2 2 17 5 L(1-4) - 4.19
Jun 19 MIL W 8-7 0.2 3 3 3 1 0 1 3 1 10 5 - - - 3.03
Jun 18 MIL W 2-0 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 16 4 - Sv(9) 2.37
Jun 17 @MIN W 5-1 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 9 3 - - 2.43
The last column is Corpas’ ERA, which nearly doubled from having to pitch four days in a row. Jim Tracy blew out Manuel’s arm, because Huston Street was coming off the DL and was expected to resume closing duties, even though Corpas had proven capable of the responsibility once again. You’ll notice that only one of the four games was a save situation, and the final game in the set had Aaron Cook going seven innings before turning things over to the bullpen, Corpas was needlessly burned out with several other fresh pitchers available.
Then there was the incident where Troy Tulowitzki(maybe you've heard of him, he's kind of important to the Rockies future) remained in the game to run the bases, where headfirst sliding is prevalent, after being hit on the wrist squarely and BREAKING it. Tracy checked him out, and determined that he was fine and left him in, and then after the next batter thankfully hit a homerun, Troy removed himself.
And now, we can pinpoint more player abuse, where the genius manager wanted to get Ubaldo an arbitrary complete game shutout last season. So poor Jimenez had to trot out for the 9th inning and throw 22 more pitches, bringing his total to 128 for his 4th 120+ pitch outing early in the season(he had a couple 115 pitch outings already as well). Up to that point Ubaldo sported a 0.79 ERA through 2 months/11 games, and then it began to steadily climb as Tracy left him in too long time and time again. Over the next 2 months Ubaldo's ERA was a staggering 5.67 until he was finally so bad that he was taken out early and didn't go over 100 pitches for 3 straight games. Following that stretch of self inflicted rest, Jimenez retained a very impressive 3.09 ERA for the rest of the season, despite Tracy still continuously riding him too hard.
Anyone here who doesn't realize Jim Tracy is the worst manager in baseball, and is the biggest cause of failure for the Rockies to compete, just doesn't get it.
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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I’m no Tracy fan. I really don’t like how he manages a game. But this post is out of line due to that last line. And anyway, Mike Quade and Eric Wedge would probably be upset that you’re leaving them out of the race.
What really happened to Corpas, by the way, was that, aside from ~2 months in 2007, he was just not a good pitcher. Then he got hurt.
Low-cut blouses are looked down upon in this establishment.
Wow.
This is a new one.
Also, this:
“brutal in game managing”(Keith Law, ESPN top baseball analyst)
Makes me laugh. Keith Law has always seemed to me to be overly harsh to Tracy, to the point I’ve wondered if he has some personal vendetta (in fact, the other day he criticized a lineup that had nothing wrong with it, simply because it was Tracy who made it). So quoting him as some authority on the matter really doesn’t give your position any more weight to me.
As for the last line, yeah. I’m at the airport, otherwise I’d probably say more.
Keith Law is a cynical man, I’ve discovered. I think he does a great job, but he’s quick to criticize. His commentary on Tracy/Roenicke the other day was making me laugh.
Low-cut blouses are looked down upon in this establishment.
I generally appreciate his insights.
But on Tracy I’ve found he seems less than objective for some reason.
he grinds his axes a bit too regularly for my tastes
but he’s a smart guy, and I’ll always think for a bit before really agreeing/disagreeing with anything he says.
His hate mail is the best though (twitter, that is, but hate tweets is less funny than hate mail)
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh. I guess I don't get it then.
Can I offer you my job?
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Man, I was gonna post that picture – you guys know the one – but it’s not even worth it.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Honestly, all this was missing was “Headfirst sliding is PREVALENT! READ AND LEARN”
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
BLAM(B)!
"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo
Ok so you guys don't like supporting evidence
Nobody’s refuting the facts I presented, people just think I’m out of line.
Not a word about Tracy leaving a broken wristed Tulo in the game….
Corpas wasn’t good anymore despite an ERA of 2.23 and having EARNED the closer role in the beginning of June last year….
Ubaldo ranked 2nd in pitcher abuse points in 2010….
Come on, does everyone really not see it? I guess it’s just easier to immediately dismiss and make fun of my thoughtful and supported conclusion.
by neighborhood143 on Jul 20, 2011 1:12 PM MDT reply actions
Do you happen to write for Bleacher Report?
A Ty WIggington Home Run is a Rockies Death Sentence.
by Thnikkaman on Jul 20, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I didn’t realize managers were supposed to also know if a bone was broken just by looking at it.
I didn’t realize Corpas was made of porcelain. Neither did Clint Hurdle, who pitched him just about every damn day down the stretch in 2007.
Why don’t you pick on the manager who had the pitcher with the most abuse points in 2010?
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
without looking.... Manuel?
Although Halladay absorbs abuse and turns it into ground balls and cutters.
abuse….cutters
I think I’m on to something here
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Nobody thought Tulo's wrist was broken then, just bruised and stinging.
Even Tulo thought Tulo could stay in the game. That’s not evidence.
Yes, Ubaldo could have been ridden a little softer. So why isn’t Dusty Baker the worst manager in baseball then, considering he absolutely ruined both Kerry Wood and Mark Prior? Seems he’s the clubhouse leader over Tracy in that department.
The fact that Quade isn’t even in your discussion speaks volumes.
"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo
wait, Dusty Baker isn't the worst manager in baseball?
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
If you think he is, you just don't get it.
#FireBobBradley
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by UZ on Jul 21, 2011 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Foiled again!
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2011 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Support would be to show that 29 other MLB managers don't make the same mistakes or worse.
You haven’t illustrated that at all.
Believe it or not, most people here aren’t big Tracy supporters, if they are at all. Most of us do support quality and thoughtful analysis when we see it. So far in this fanpost, we’re still wanting.
I'm fairly anti-quality, actually...
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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In my opinion, you do make a valid point regarding Tracy's usage of Ubaldo Jimenez last season.
I am not real keen on Tracy either. However, do I think he would change some things regarding his handling (or lack thereof) of Ubaldo in 2010 if he had a do-over? Yes. But, do I think at least 25 other managers in baseball end up leaving Jimenez for 120-plus pitches as well? Also yes.
As far as Corpas goes, his 2.23 ERA was not supported with great peripherals. He struck out 21 batters and walked nine in 32 innings, and boasted an extremely lucky .180 BABIP-against. In addition, he did not even eclipse the 20 pitch mark in any of the outings you referenced above.
Lastly, as others mentioned, Jim Tracy is not a doctor. Unless there was bone sticking out of skin (or comparable physical distinction), there’s no way in hell he would have known that Tulo’s wrist was broken.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 20, 2011 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions
"Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a coach!"
"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo
by Mondogarage on Jul 20, 2011 3:20 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think people don't take as kindly to "If you don't completely agree with me, you're foolish and just don't 'get' it"
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2011 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions
You've tossed down a bunch of post hoc ergo propter hoc
which is an invalid argument.
you’re propter isn’t hoc-ing.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jul 20, 2011 5:04 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
sooner or later you'll learn, it's easier to just not criticize tracy around here
unless you’re trolling, in which case well done.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Do you think that maybe it isn't that you can't criticize Tracy
But more that criticism of Tracy is never A. done in a intelligent and reasoned fashion OR B. followed up without an absurdly condescending tone (and this applies to not only the criticism but also the response to the criticism)?
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2011 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions
i wouldn't say it's *never* done intelligently, just not often, maybe 65-35
but i would absolutely say that any criticism of tracy, well founded or not, is most often met with adamant criticism, most often in a very condescending and rude manner, this FP being proof positie
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
When we took the interim off of Tracy's title in 2009, which I was against, but something like 90% of Purple Row readers were in favor of
a number probably fairly representative of all Rockies fans, and a fact of which they let me (and Aberle, for that matter) know of often in about as friendly a manner as we’ve shown to this poster here. At that time, I warned everybody that I would not be taking kindly to the knee jerk clamoring for his firing that would come on this site before his contract expired. What you see as condescension and rudeness, is just me keeping my end of that bargain.
I’ll still be tolerant of fair and thoughtful criticism of the manager, but not this, nor of calls for his firing before his contract expires outside glaring and obvious dereliction of duty. We have not seen that, yet. Rockies fans made their bed with this man, we can sleep in it and next time hopefully the majority of fans will be more careful, but I’m not holding my breath on that. Like Clint Hurdle, I actually don’t think Tracy’s a bad person, he’s not actively harming the team, and frankly most of what’s seen as managerial incompetence can as likely be chalked up to imperfections this team has in its player personnel, and sometimes just bad luck. I’m firmly in the camp that managers have little influence over the course of a season. It’s the nature of the position that their dumb decisions, which we all remember, will be balanced by their wise ones, which we won’t. I do think Tracy’s scale goes a little to the wrong end of this, but it was a known quality of the man when we hired him, and Rockies fans wanted him anyway.
by Rox Girl on Jul 21, 2011 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
see this i can appreciate:
you’ve clearly reasoned this well, and it’s polite; you don’t seem to participate in most of the ‘tracy talk’ that goes on around here, or at least as vociferously as some, myself included. this is so much nicer to read than the B.S. “if you can’t name a replacement you can’t criticize,” “you mad.jpg,” or “lol idiot you must write for bleacherreport” or the other standard refrains, which are incredibly immature, rude, out of synch with the great rep the PR community has, and frankly seem to have no intent other than to laugh the tracy criticizer out of the room.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Saying "if you can't name a replacement you can't criticize" IS BS. I'm completely sick of it.
Criticism is welcome. Knee jerk reactions screaming “HERRERA WENT 0-4 AND SUCKS! FIRE JIM TRACY” isn’t as much.
You mad? is funny. Sorry you don’t enjoy it, but it’s pretty damn funny considering how riled up some people get on a variety of topics.
“lol you idiot you must write for BR” has nothing to do with criticizing Jim Tracy in principle, it has to do with actively accusing Jim Tracy of being responsible for blowing out Corpas’ elbow and for intentionally leaving Tulowitzki in after he broke his wrist is just a level of absurdity that’s laughable to (typically) even the most casual member of our site. Frankly, it’s the kind of stuff we expect to read from that particular sports site.
The intent isn’t to laugh the Tracy criticizer out of the room. This is us laughing the person accusing Tracy of knowingly injuring Rockies players out of the room.
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 22, 2011 12:28 AM MDT up reply actions
run-on sentence much?
“…after he broke his wrist. This is just a level of…”
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 22, 2011 12:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Well, you know my position on Tracy (against) -- and it was in 2009 as well.
But then again, I don’t like pretty much any MLB manager. I just think that all of them leave plenty of value on the bench and/or waste chances to win with suboptimal decisionmaking.
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I'm still of the belief that
managers can have more of an impact but they’re more or less all the same. The tight macroculture and overall homogeneity in baseball is nuts.
Essentially my thoughts on managers are I’d like to believe they can have more of an impact (if we were looking at normal business institutions this would be true), though I don’t know how much more upward or positive room there is. Overall though, since these managers are either former baseball players, or people who ‘grew up in the game’ – if all the water keeps tasting funny, maybe 30 teams should stop going to the same well.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
A manager is only one man. Perhaps the difference to the team is roughly equivalent as follows:
Worst manager in the league: like having J. Herrera at short.
Best manager in the league: like having T. Tulowitzki at short
Most managers will be somewhere in the middle, but the whole spectrum provides a difference of 6-8 WAR. What do you think?
there's such a thing as "pitcher abuse points"?
I wonder how many PAPs were accumulated against Bob Gibson and Nolan Ryan, who got so abused throwing over 300 innings in a season, he was held to only playing 27 of them. I do believe that most players never want to come out of games. If Tracy is guilty of anything, it’s caving to his players’ desire to keep competing.
Jim Tracy is not the best manager in baseball, but he’s far from the worst, and as others have said, it’s no fair comparison if you don’t discuss the similar habits of the other 29 managers. You’re neither an excellent manager nor a terrible one if you manage to hold the position with three different teams in the course of a decade.
Nolan Ryan is a REALLY unfair example
as is Mark Prior.
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2011 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions
fair enough, Ryan is truly exceptional in every sense of the word
and Prior is an excellent counter-example. And I know the counter-argument to the complaint of how much pitchers are babied today is “it’s just a different game than it used to be.” In reality, I think the only real difference is the number of dollars invested in pitchers. That, and the dilution created by 30 teams. When there were only 16, if you happened to blow up a kid’s arm, no matter how good he was, you could find another good one. Not as easy now.
by jasonwrites on Jul 22, 2011 10:27 PM MDT up reply actions
What with salaries rising
and the link between money and player performance becoming far more clear, teams are better understanding the investments they are making.
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 24, 2011 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions
if the senators could have invested $100 million in walter johnson, they probably would have
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
I would think that $100 million at the turn of the 20th century could have been better invested elsewhere.
Like purchasing Switzerland, for instance.
the altitude would inflate offense too much to get a true read on player abilities.
the johnson extension would be better for the club in the long run
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
If we're going to jusdge "worst manager in the league" by overuse of relievers
Why aren’t we picking on the guy whose setup man and closer are 1-2 in the league in appearances.
(Hint: It’s the same guy that walked Ty Wigginton to get to Carlos Gonzalez.)
Please can someone explain why a reliever who throws 80 innings
Is more at risk than a starter who throws 200? (generalising but go with me here). If starters can do it, why can’t relievers be suficiently stretched out to throw, say, at least 100+ if needed?
It can’t just be “relievers are expected to be balls out on every pitch” because plenty of starters average 93mph+ over 100 pitches. Surely it’s evidence relievers are over-coddled?
Because starters have several days of rest in between, while the relievers pitch back-to-back days
The wear adds on differently. Also, even mediocre starters throw 150-170 innings, while mediocre relievers can be kept to 40. Stretching out from 170 to 200 isn’t as big of a deal from 40 to 100+. (All personal assumptions)
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 21, 2011 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Mike Marshall threw well over 100 innings in relief
He had a Ph.D. (maybe the only active player ever to do so) in kinesiology and extensively studied sound pitching mechanics. Maybe he should be a special consultant to MLB.
by jasonwrites on Jul 22, 2011 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t necessarily disagree with you neighborhood about Jim Tracy, he has left me befuddled at times in what appears to me being cases of “overmanaging”. But he isn’t the worst manager in baseball as jasonwrites- writes. And last evening was a head shaker, walking Wiggington to pitch to Gonzales was a headshaker. But it worked out for Colorado. I am not a Jim Tracy appologist, nor fan, but I thnk the Rockies could do worse.
Not to low baby, I might pass out! - Dean Martin
Up to that point Ubaldo sported a 0.79 ERA through 2 months/11 games, and then it began to steadily climb as Tracy left him in too long time and time again.
Of course, it was TRACY’S fault that Ubaldo couldn’t sustain a sub 1.00 ERA after 11 games. Drat that manager, Ubaldo was well on his way to finishing the year with those numbers!
#FireBobBradley
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well....
I really did hate him leaving Ubaldo in so long so often
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2011 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Indeed. I just don’t think pointing to his ERA not staying at 0.72 all season is a particularly good argument for why it was a badly managed situation.
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by UZ on Jul 21, 2011 7:46 PM MDT up reply actions
didn't you realize that Ubaldo would have been Bob Gibson if Tracy hadn't knowingly and intentionally destroyed him?
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 22, 2011 12:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Jim Tracy destroyed Bob Gibson
FIRE HIM!
"We have done everything possible to be set for this day, for this season. It's time to go. We are ready. I can promise you that." - CarGo
Remember when Tracy would order that the mound be lowered 10 inches
only for days when Ubaldo would pitch? And how games would take 8 hours due to all the extra time of having to raise the mound again when the opposing pitcher would pitch?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Fredi Gonzalez intentionally walked Ty Wigginton to face Carlos Gonzalez
Thus, he MUST be the worst manager in baseball, and if you disagree, you just don’t get it.
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I guess it's just easier to make fun of the thoughtful and supported conclusion
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by Andrew Martin on Jul 28, 2011 11:06 PM MDT up reply actions
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