Rockies 6, Braves 9: Pendulum Swings Both Ways, But Ultimately Knocks Rockies On Faces
The leading team in this game changed four times, with the Rockies getting off to a four run start in the first two innings, but ending with the Braves breaking the lead open in the seventh inning. Starter Jhoulys Chacin battled control issues, allowing seven walks, four hits and five earned runs over four and a third innings pitched. He also struck out four Braves, three in the first inning while escaping from a two runner, one out jam.
Carlos Gonzalez led off the Rockies offense with his 15th home run of the year. In the second, Dexter Fowler's seventh triple knocked in Ian Stewart and Chris Iannetta. Fowler scored the fourth Rockies run on an attempted squeeze play; Chacin missed the ball at the plate, but Braves catcher Brian McCann also missed the catch, allowing Fowler to get credited for stealing home.
Chacin's control problems began to bubble over in the third. After walking Martin Prado to begin the inning, Jason Heyward hit his tenth home run of the season to cut the Rockies lead in half. A single and two more walks kept the inning alive for Atlanta. Rockies bane Freddie Freeman came around to score on an Alex Gonzalez grounder that was just missed for a double play. Freeman struck again in fifth inning with a game tying solo shot, his fifteenth of the season (six of those fifteen have come against the Rockies; Freeman has only hit home runs against us in the month of July thus far). Brooks Conrad reached in a similar matter to Gonzalez in the third, and after stealing second base, came around to score, bringing the lead to the Braves.
In the fifth inning, Carlos Gonzalez appeared to injure himself while swinging the bat. He left the game and is getting a MRI. No news on those results yet, so check the comments.
The Rockies brought the lead back home in the sixth, when Seth Smith tripled in Troy Tulowitzki. Smith scored on an Iannetta sacrifice fly. The lead would be short-lived. Reliever Matt Reynolds began the seventh inning with a groundout, but after allowing three straight extra base hits (including a solo home run, Conrad's fourth homer of the year) and two runs to score, the lead returned to Atlanta, the final changing of that hand. Matt Lindstrom relieved Reynolds, allowed one inherited runner in Nate McLouth to score, then a run of his own in Wilkin Ramirez, coming home on a Heyward base hit.
Good relief appearances in the game from Matt Belisle, Rex Brothers (who struck out the side in the eighth) and Rafael Betancourt made little to no difference, as the Rockies were unable to produce against Braves relievers; a Ryan Spilborghs walk was all the team could muster together in the ninth inning against closer Craig Kimbrel. Kimbrel nailed down his 30th save of the year, and Reynolds got his second loss.
A 4-4 homestand of treading water was not what we needed after the All Star Break. The team sets out on the road for nine inter-division games, beginning with a trip to Arizona. Tomorrow's game begins at 7:40 PM Mountain.

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Riding the rollercoaster that is Rockies baseball
by prettyinpurple on Jul 21, 2011 5:13 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Anybody have any word on Cargo yet?
How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
From Jim Armstrong's Twitter...
This was posted about 10 minutes ago…“no update yet on cargo. he’s at local hospital undergoing mri, but the players are assuming he’s out for a while.”
Doesn’t sound good. I’m not really expecting anything less than a broken wrist though from the way he reacted after the foul ball…
by RoxBackyardTalent on Jul 21, 2011 5:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Maybe if you say this terrible news
in a really nice way, it won’t seem so bad.
what is this, 3 weeks ago?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
So. Pissed. Off.
We Fear NO ONE.
Because We Know: WE ARE THE ROCKIES.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jul 21, 2011 5:22 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
I’m in favor of outlawing day baseball at this point. Only bad things happen when the Rockies play while the sun’s out.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
By my count they have now lost 10 day games in a row (while they are 14-7 during night games in that stretch)
The good news is that only two of the next eleven games are afternoon affairs.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 7:58 AM MDT up reply actions
that's 2 too many
I guess we can always hope for lengthy rain delays?
Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis
Three problems
1) The first game is in the desert
2) Even if it does rain, they will close the roof
3) Even if it does rain and they for some reason can’t close the roof for a few hours, it will still be Sunday.
That sounds like a loss to me
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
boo!
Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis
since I've taken it upon myself, here you go again:
John (Lakewood, CO)
Tyler Matzek, decent return last night, is there still hope and might the Rox have learned not to “fix” his motion so much?
Klaw (2:58 PM)
He walked five in four innings.
Vendetta level hate re: Matzek
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
wow…I guess if you don’t pitch in a game for a few weeks and changing your mechanics, you should expect to come out and pitch a no hitter
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Jul 22, 2011 7:48 AM MDT up reply actions
Mr. Law better hope that Matzek doesn't figure things out (and mean EVER)
His credability may never recover.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:02 AM MDT up reply actions
uh
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions
Forgot the I between “and” and “mean”
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:04 AM MDT up reply actions
chacin walked 7
i know i mentioned his walk issues in the last game wrap of one of his starts and was not taken very seriously, but i think it’s something to take a little bit seriously at this point.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Wow, am I glad I was at work
Don’t know why I turned the radio on for the drive home, though…
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
The 2011 Rockies: More extreme than Colorado's weather
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Jul 21, 2011 5:40 PM MDT reply actions
I had it on while at work
Kind of roller coaster feeling with the end coming at the bottom of course
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I think I would have been even less productive if I could get a decent signal at my desk
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
The 2011 Rockies: More extreme than Colorado's weather
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Jul 21, 2011 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Same old same old
Once again the Rockies lose a key last game of a series, only this time Thursday instead of Sunday. Story of our below .500 season. Day game record now 12-21.
my thoughts exactly
unreal
LETS GO RED WINGS!
2011 will be the year....better be....
Troy Tulowitzki: "When people think of the Rockies, I want them to think of a winning organization."
by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 21, 2011 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm one of the bigger pessimists around here
But I’m certainly not too upset with 4-4 on this homestand. IIRC the opposing pitchers were:
Gallardo
Narveson
Greinke
Marcum
Forgot who started for the Braves on Mon
Beachy
Hudson
Hanson
Even if that wasn’t Jurrjens on Mon, that’s 6 of the top 25 or so starters in the NL right there. (Sorry Narveson) If it was that’s 7 of them.
What I can be upset about is Cargo’s injury. Most disappointing season in Rockies history. Probably the most disappointing season in Denver sports in the last 20 years when you compare expectations to results. (Also in the running: 1999 Broncos, 2007-08 Nuggets, 2008 Rockies)
Wait, what's his real name? We should make a joke out of that.
by BrandonHawpe on Jul 21, 2011 6:14 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Lowe was the Monday game
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I was about to make the same post
We’re still ok, folks.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Really? I thought we were 10+ games back with an inconsistent pitching staff and offense
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Jul 21, 2011 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well, OTHER than that...
…how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
Paleface Destro: The Resident Smartass of the Ubaldo Lovers Club
The 2011 Rockies: More extreme than Colorado's weather
I snark because I care.
by Paleface Destro on Jul 21, 2011 7:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Ovbi
We are 10 games back right now with 60+ games left. That’s not a ridiculous number, really, considering what this team has proven in the past.
Schedule gets easier from here and the Giants’ gets much more difficult.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not going to take anyone's hope, no matter how slim
I just want the FO to use this opportunity to look towards the future as well. Cole Garner or EY2 isn’t going to solve anything, nor is Wiggy as a full time OF
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I'm with you there
They must be concerned with k’s. idk.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Amen
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:07 AM MDT up reply actions
Yes, in that....
…brain sucking aliens haven’t attacked earth and drooling zombies are not roaming Colfax Avenue looking for fresh meat we are, in fact “ok”.
As far as competing for a pennant is concerned, we have a giant gold plated fork stuck deep inside us
Once.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
10 straight in 2010 to make up something like 5 games
10 games under .500 in 2009 to 90 wins.
Of course it’s unlikely, but it would seem this team should have earned your faith by now.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd like to be able to trust more than one guy in the rotation
and one guy in the lineup to produce consistently
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Even with Chacin's struggles
it’s pretty clear this rotation as is is better than 2007 and comprable to 2009 and ’10.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Hammel has lost most of what made him a decent #4 starter
Cook has a giant fork stuck in him
Nicasio was in A Ball last year. Promising, but I can’t possibly trust him to bring us into contention.
Chacin is 23 and suffering his first MLB struggles.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
You do recall '07 rotation right
This one is clearly better even if Chacin is currently struggling.
Both Chacin and Hammel and Cook to a lesser degree can turn it around.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions
2007 was fluky, absolutely
but we have Ubaldo right now, and only for the last 6-8 weeks.
I trust essentially no one else to perform on a consistent basis for the next 10 weeks, let alone multiple candidates
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I don't trust that they will perform consistently as a collective unit either
But I would never put it past them. A lot of pyro’s around here…. fire sale does us no good.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions
selling non core parts isn't a fire sale
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I was just going to post the same comment
No one around here has advocated a fire sale that I’ve seen.
Get your purple on.
I haven't seen anyone calling for Tulo, Cargo, Nicasio, etc. to be dealt
And no one’s in love with the idea of moving Ubaldo, either.
Dealing Ty Wiggington or Matt Lindstrom is not exactly a “fire sale”. It’s a recognition that veteran journeymen guys that can help a contender have some value.
Wigginton is a good deal
a very versatile guy who helps us with our biggest offensive weakness.
Lindstrom is relatively young and currently our best reliever.
That’s two holes we’d have to fill next year.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Wait. What?
A guy who can’t buy a hit with RISP helps us with our biggest offensive weakness??
Get your purple on.
look at his career numbers
this season is SSS, but he’s failed at it for his entire career… the dude is decidedly unclutch
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
So your plan to make next season better is....
to go into it with exactly the same roster as this season? And without adding any prospects?
Quite a plan you’ve got there.
Trading quality cost controlled players for
marginal prospects hurts our chances next year. Pretty much everything has gone wrong this year.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Ty Wiggington and Matt Lindsrom are not "quality" players
They’re not bad players. They’re legit major leaguers. But they’re spare parts on good teams.
And saying “Pretty much everything has gone wrong this year.” in hopes that somehow things will get better by themselves is a recipe for continued medicority.
Look, lots of bad things have happened to the Giants this season injury-wise. But where are they now?
Talent and winning attitude wins championships. We need more of both.
Giants are fortunate to have the record they do
The Rockies are unfortunate to have their record. They should be at least a few games better. The Rockies have not picked up guys on the street who have performed like all-stars as the Giants have.
Wigginton and Lindstrom are solid players. Their departure would open hard-to-fill holes next season.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Lindstrom would be hard to fill?
I’ll give you $10 if you can remember what we traded to obtain Lindstrom this offseason. No cheating.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
So, you're putting the honus on DOD
to pull rabits out of his hat for us to fill holes next year that we wouldn;t have to fill if we didn’t trade solid bench and relievers?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:18 PM MDT up reply actions
That's his job?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I realize I'm coming in late here, but...
you’re calling replacing Lindstrom, Wigginton, and Giambi pulling rabbits from a hat? If O’Dowd is not able to replace those three players in the off-season, forget about 2012, it’ll be a lifetime before the Rox contend again.
we should dump wigginton because he's terrible
and it wont be long before other teams realize that
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Wiggy OK
He’s not terrible, he is just not a knight on a white horse. He’s a good utility player. Just not the guy we would like to see.
by Real Perspective on Jul 22, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
That's a rummage sale
And likely does nothing to substantively change the future.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions
We've had the "trade that will substantially trade the future" talk all week
That’s not likely happening. But trading guys with small roles and some value on the market should be taken advantage of at the deadline. It’s what sellers do.
Guess what? We’re sellers this year.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Trading good bench players
for marginal prospects is going backwards.
We don’t have an adequate 1b bat, nevermind a King Kong bat in the wings.
We don’t have a solid RH power bat that can play 6 positions coming up either.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Again, Giambi's contract ends this year.
If we trade him for a RHP reliever, then re-sign him this offseason…exactly what risk is there?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I thought he had a 2 year deal
Well, that’s a fair point I suppose.. We have organizational depth…. a marginal reliever doesn;t do much for… iF this team completely collapses next week I’ll probably jump on the trade Giambi bandwagon, but not Wiggy.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Here is the RHP relief depth chart right now
Edgmer Escalona.
Matt Daley.
Pray.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
But that's just this year's crop
We don’t care about this year right now, amirite?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:55 PM MDT up reply actions
We're all talking about the same Ty Wiggington here, right?
Is there some parallel universe Ty Wiggington who’s a superstar?
Funny thing is
you’re asking the team to trade for guys who will have lower cielings than Wiggy. Sorry that you can’t see the value in a guy who smokes lh pitching and plays 6 positions.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:54 PM MDT up reply actions
We'd be asking for guys with higher ceilings
but that haven’t reached them yet, and may never.
There’s risk involved, but we’re sellers.
A gold watch does you no good in the desert.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
2012 is not a desert
Ty Wiggington can be an important bench piece next season, and guys like him aren’t everywhere.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I see his value completely
and that’s why I say deal him to a team that can use him and try to get a nice young player in return.
Look, I ike Wiggington, I guess. He’s a nice veteran guy. Does some good things. Helps a club out. But there are plenty of guys like him out there.
If there weren’t he wouldn’t be on his 6th team. Some team would’ve grabbed him and locked him up by now.
Veteran utilities players are key to have on contending teams. They’re simply aluxury on losing teams. If we can get a nice young player for him, sure we do it. If we can’t, I’m fine with him returning as a backup next season.
IF there are plenty of guys like him
then there wouldn’t be much of a market for him, therefore, the return would be minimal. You’re defeating your own argument.
We don’t have a guy in the system who has Wiggy’s proven power (from the right side) and can play multiple positions
This team is left-dominant as is, that increases Wiggy’s value here.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:05 PM MDT up reply actions
If there *weren't* plenty of guys for him....
we’d be talking about getting a premium prospect back, yes? If you’re right about him, we wouldn’t need Ubaldo to pry Montero from teh Yankees. Wiggy should do it.
The inverse of your argument is not correct either
Nor is it my argument.
He could probably land a C+ prospect. We have quite a few of those. IF we trade Wiggy, this off-season, one of our top priorities would be to find a RH power bat that can play multiple positions. And I can assure you he’d be more expensive than Wiggy.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Odd. Most of us considered Wiggy's contract an overpay this offseason
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
It's better next year
3.5 next year is a solid deal for his projected war.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions
No one expected him to get this much playing time
If it happens next year, we’re in trouble again
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
what is the current war to salary ratio
I can;t find it, but I’m pretty sure Wiggy can produce more than $3.5 in war as a bench player getting 40-50 starts a year.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:21 PM MDT up reply actions
I believe it's $4.5mil per WAR
He’d exceed it certainly. But so could a dozen other guys
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
we both have blind faith
you believe DOD is a magician I believe the team has magical second half powers.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Finding a RHP bullpen pitcher
and utility guy through free agency is hardly magic.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Wigginton would not be able to return next year
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:07 PM MDT up reply actions
do we even want him to?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
We need to collectively erase the memories of 2009 and 2007 if this franchise will ever...
….become a true contender. Sitting back and waiting for lightening to keep striking just provides cover for the ownership and front office to sit on their hands.
I’m not a cynic. I’m a guy who’s watching a fundamentally flawed, poorly constructed team (which neither the ’07 or ’09 clubs were) lose day after day in utterly most uninspiring fashion.
I’d love to be wrong, but it ain’t gonna happen this season.
as fun as those years were, I tend to agree
It’s hurt us at the deadline every other year.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Really?
You mean it hurt us in 2008 and 2010?
Who would we have traded and how would it have mde us better?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Hawpe, Atkins, Torrealba, Spilborghs, Olivo, EY2, etc
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
No way
That’s not 20-20 hindsight it’s x-ray vision.
No one saw Hawpe or Atkins falling off the cliff. None of the other guys would land the prospects to make us considerably better right now.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions
There were multiple people on this site
demanding we trade all of the above players before they lost their value.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I can see the argument for Hawpe
I will concede that. Not Atkins, however. The only guy in that bunch who could have landed us an impact prospect is Hawpe. It’s a rather flimsy argument considering there isn’t anyone that would be prudent to trade or that would land us an impact prospect.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:36 PM MDT up reply actions
They don't have to be impact prospects in order to be smart trades
Giambi would likely net us a Matt Daley type prospect. That has value.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I don't think the issue is who we would have dealt....
The issue is not making big strides to improve the club if it’s in contention at the deadline. When that sort of thing comes up, we hear “The Rockies are a famous 2nd half team — this team may be poised to make another run and we can’t mess up the chemistry.”
But they’re not a famous second half team — they’re a franchise that has made two famous second half runs. In 18 seasons on the field.
I agree completely.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
They've made big second half runs 3 of the last 4 years
Why would you compare a helton Tulo team with the previous teams?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Giambi has more value than a Matt Daley
in a year to year vacuum. Giambi has been a huge asset for this team and could be the same next year.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:40 PM MDT up reply actions
He'll also be a free agent and likely to sign again here this offseason
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Huge asset?
He was signed to be a PH and has barely got a pinch hit all season. Is he a good backup first basemen? Sure. But the world is packed with good backup first basemen. We’ve got one at Col. Spgs who hit 32 HR in the bigs a couple years back.
Oh c'com
comparing Eldred to Giambi. Seriously?
Considering Todd need 25-30 games off year, a back-up 1st baseman is pretty important. Giambi has bveen spectacular…. not good. He’s singlehandedly won or kept us in many games this year.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Mike Jacobs
32 hrs, 93 RBI for Florida in 2008.
"gotcha
misread your post. Still, you’re completely understating Giambi’s impact.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:52 PM MDT up reply actions
1.200+ OPS in 19 games as a starter
He’s been better than expected. But on a team going nowhere, he’s extraneous.
He has value elsewhere.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I'll concede that point
If the team doesn’t make up at least a game or two by the 31st.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Don't understand definitive statements
when applied to this core.
I’d love to hear how the ’07 and ’09 teams were “better constructed”
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I'll ask you a question....
Give me 3 good reasons that don’t include the phrases “2007” and “2009” why you believe it’s realistic to expect that this current Rockies team as constituted (and now without Cargo for some period of time) will go 45-18 or so (which is probably what it will take to catch SF).
Because they have
3 position players who should regress to the mean and they could very well start winning close games again. I believe in this rotation and ’pen as well.
Part of the equation is SF slowing down.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Besides an injured Cargo and Tulo, who's the 3rd position player?
And, using the same logic, can we expect Helton to “regress to the mean” of his recent seasons?
And why, considering their pitching, should we expect the Giants to slow down?
Again, we aren’t talking about a team that’s 10 games over .500 having to play 13 games over .500 ball the rest of the way. We’re talking about a team that’s 5 games under .500 and without a winning streak of note all season to have to play over .700 ball the rest of the way.
“Miracle runs” are called that for a reason. They’re miraculous. If miracles happened all the time, they wouldn’t be miracles.
Look, I do appreciate your loyalty and optimism. Truly I do. But accept that those who choose to be realistic aren’t doing it to be curmudgeons. We’re doing it because, well, accepting reality is a healthy way to go through life. And our reality is this: no playoffs for us this season.
We've had no production from 2b, 3B and Cf this year
and there’s plenty of reason to believe that can change and sings point to that happening. You’re reducing my argument here.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Everyone knows chances are slim
My point is that there really isn’t anyone on this team that can land an impact prospect. The peripheral guys or bench and reliever guys we have now will be critical to success next year. Farm depth is a strength.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Depth without impact talent gets you...
around 83 wins
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Right
And trading Wiggy or Gaimbi does not yield impact prospects, which is precisely my point.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:10 PM MDT up reply actions
It's not a solution
but it can certainly help more long term than keeping them here for no purpose
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Keeping or trading Wiggy and/or Giambi
Most likely has zero effect on the long term success of this franchise. We’re talking about blips here. Deck chairs on the Titanic.
If either or both of those guys are in a rockies uniform or someone else’s uniform next season, the Rockies will probably end up in the same place they would have ended up otherwise.
This teams issues go far beyond utility players and backup first basemen.
The only reason to push for a trade is that trades are kinda fun and we’ve been short in teh fun department around here. And maybe we get a young player who can help us someday.
Either way, those guys are utter non-issues int the grand scheme of things. If you’ll feel better seeing them in Rox unis then, fine, let’s keep ‘em. I’m all for making people happy.
Could have saved a lot of time
“The only reason to push for a trade is that trades are kinda fun and we’ve been short in teh fun department around here. "
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, which shows...
how insignificant those guys are in the big picture. Trade them, don’t trade the. Doesn’t really matter. They’re small pieces in a big puzzle that has some huge gaps right now.
but they wouldn;t be insignificant next year
you’re already throwing in the twoel for 2012. that’s the difference between us here.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Huh?
Saying Ty Wiggington is not the key to 2012 is somehow throwing in the towel?
Let me put it this way: If Ty Wiggington is the key to 2012, then I’m prepared to throw int eh towel! :)
I have hopes for 2012, but it’s gonna take some serious retooling and some injection of legit talent. Our pal Ty is just a sideshow.
What is the means to that end
There isn’t. You don’t get a lot of talent immediately without trading a lot of talent. Following this organization requires patience. This team is not far away and it’s best player are approaching their primes. any significant change in direction now put back the entire plan.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:43 PM MDT up reply actions
There's another NL team that is built similarly
the Cardinals have Pujols and Holliday signed long term, with Wainwright a Cy Young candidate.
Worked out well for them this year. They have holes everywhere, and are only in contention due to a weak NL Central and the black magic that Lance Berkman found this offseason.
But even the Cardinals have Miller and Martinez ready to shore up their rotation. We have….?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Wainwright is out for the year
and Pujols has been injured. take the top 1-2 players on any team not named NY or Boston and expect shortcomings. Not every team can pick up guys off the street and win 70 percent of 1-run games— but you’ve readily dismissed that.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm pointing out the dangers of building around two or three guys
with a bunch of holes elsewhere on the roster.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
A mid-market team with a couple big $ players
is more likely than not to be built exactly that way.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jul 21, 2011 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions
but with a quality farm system to constantly replenish
without that, you have to try all over again.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
but how fast do you "try all over again"?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jul 21, 2011 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions
It depends if you think the past two years are a fluke
or representative of their true talent level.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
There's a plan?
I’ve followed this team since day one, 1993. I’ve seen “plans” come and go. Blake St Bombers, super-speed (Tom Goodwin, our savior!), Generation R and on and on.
There’s no plan. Just a pretty good GM with a limited budget tapdancing as best he can and hoping for good breaks.
What this team has,though, that other Rox clubs didn’t is an ace starter and 5 tool guys at SS and LF. So at least the roadmap is clearer.
But there’s not nearly enough talent in house to get the job done, so Dan’s gonna have to use whatever assets he has and the Monforts are gonna have to change their tunes about signing a free agent or two.
The only thing I know – expecting this team to suddenly become winners without some roster changes is highly unrealistic.
Well know one is arguing against the Monforts
adding 20-30 million to the payroll, but that’s not a reasonable solution. That’s more unreasonable than expecting this team to make a comeback.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Plenty of reason?
At this point, we aren’t even sure if Stewart and Fowler are actual major league starters, let alone of a caliber to lift this team to a .700 winning clip. And we’ve seen good things from Mark Ellis, but again — is he enough to carry this club on his back to those kinds of heights?
If we had legit studs coming off the DL and a solid pitching staff, I’d be right there with you. But, instead, we have one of our few studs quite possibly going to the DL and a bunch of question marks.
If you want to boil your argument down to “Look, I’m an optimist and I’d rather live in hope, so I’m predicting a run”, I’d tip my hat and say “Good way to look at it, hope you’re right”. But trying to argue that there’s an acutal basis in fact to beleive that is just too hard for me to swallow.
You're making it seem as though it's my expectation
That’s clearly not what I’ve argued here.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions
well....
“We’re still ok, folks.”
“We are 10 games back right now with 60+ games left. That’s not a ridiculous number, really, considering what this team has proven in the past.
Schedule gets easier from here and the Giants’ gets much more difficult."
“10 straight in 2010 to make up something like 5 games
10 games under .500 in 2009 to 90 wins.
Of course it’s unlikely, but it would seem this team should have earned your faith by now."
“it’s pretty clear this rotation as is is better than 2007 and comprable to 2009 and ’10.”
“3 position players who should regress to the mean and they could very well start winning close games again. I believe in this rotation and ’pen as well.”
“there’s plenty of reason to believe that can change and sings point to that happening”
My bad if I misconstrued those comments to somehow believe you have a view of the rest of the season that a good deal sunnier than pretty much anyone else around here.
But like I said, you have every right to those opinions. And I’ve love to eat crow and have you end up a hero.
Yes, it is sunnier
But I don’t expect the team to make the comeback, but I wouldn’t put it past them either. We’re on the same wave length, mysteriously.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I wouldn't put it past them....
in the same way I wouldn’t put it past any team that isn’t mathematically eliminated. Sure it can happen, but all signs lead to “no”.
That all said, we are in agreement in hoping it happens. I’d much, much rather be watching competitive games in September than be proven right on an internet message board. :)
I'm saying this team deserves credit than every other team not mathematically eliminated
in the same way I wouldn’t put it past any “team that isn’t mathematically eliminated”
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:35 PM MDT up reply actions
They really don't.
In fact, considering the performance they’ve put forth this season, they deserve less credit.
But again, the argument always comes back to 2007 and 2009. Let them go. They happened, it was awesome, we’ll remember it forever.
But it’s over. In the history books. Deal with the team as it is now. And this is not a good team by any standards applied.
Then drastic measures are required
trade ubaldo, cargo and tulo and start over….. that’s the only way this team can fundamentally change
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:45 PM MDT up reply actions
So it's either or?
Keep every guy in place, right down to the backup first baseman, or trade everyone?
What O’D needs to do is fill in the blanks around his core players. He knows what they are — CF, 3B, 2B, starting pitching. Do that, and next year can be a good one.
lmao
Mark Eillis is a good second baseman. We have two PROSPECTS that can play cf for us next year. The only “hole” is 3B and perhaps a quality 4th or 5th starter. That can be accomplished without opening up more holes to fill by trading qualities players now.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Mark Ellis is a free agent after this season. And he's be 35 next season.
And expecting PROSPECTS to flower into stars is risky business. Witness all the Rockies PROSPECTS that aren’t such PROSPECTS any more.
But you're so eager to trade for them
This is loopy-land. What is your solution?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Saying that trading a Ty Wiggington for some prospect...
…is hardly the same as saying “I HEART PROSPECTS!” LOL.
As I mention elsewhere, it’s time to stop using Hampton and Neagle as crutches to avoid competing for free agents and go out there and compete. And we have to be willing to deal what few chips we have — Rogers, Spillborgs, Reynolds (both of them), Fowler, EY, Nelson, etc. Granted, it’s not much to work with, but I have some faith in O’Dowd to bring some quality back.
So, jsut to be clear....
your plan moving forward is not to move anyone (especially Ty Wiggington and Jason Giambi) and hope that next year just magically works out?
“cause you’ve pretty much poo-pood every suggestion to the contrary.
Fair enough. We know where you stand.
I think this team can improve with the players it has
a couple of quality off-season additions, improved health and one of our OF prospects turning into an upgrade in the OF.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:07 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree with this
We got Dimaggio, Banks and Gibson-like seasons out of the Big Three last year and came in at 83 wins. And yet so many people fell for the “we’re soooo close” headlines.
by Northsider1964 on Jul 21, 2011 8:05 PM MDT up reply actions
and it took a significant second half surge to get to that 83 wins
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Exactly
and we had a 6 run lead against the Dodgers with a chance to make it 1/2 game out before the collapse.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:09 PM MDT up reply actions
You say "collapse"
I say “regression to the team’s collective talent level”
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
They were and 86 pytho team
missing its best player for 50 games.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:23 PM MDT up reply actions
We make a habit of underperforming our pythag, in case you didn't notice
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yeah
So, the team is flawed at its core, mentally weak,etc.. Then why move the peripheral guys? Clearly, this is a problem with the team’s best players.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions
We've already hitched our wagon to these guys.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
As argued with the Ubaldo trade
I don’t think we have enough impact talent coming up to support them.
I’m in the minority here, but I strongly believe it.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Ok, great
Square one again. Trading quality peripheral players does not yield impact prospects.
Ubaldo trade topic is dead horse.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:31 PM MDT up reply actions
O'Dowd has a difficult group of decisions to make this offseason.
I don’t envy him.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
i don't see this
we can shore up our oOF next year without any trades. we can shore up 2b by re-signing ellis. we can shore-up our rotation if ubaldo and JDLR are healthy and Chacin and Nicasio make inremental improvements. I think your arithmetic is wrong,
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:36 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not comfortable entering 2012 with 2011's roster and a bunch of hope
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
The key to moving forward is to admit....
that everyone — team, fans, media — overrated this team’s talent going into the season. With that behind us, the Rox can move forward and right some wrongs. If they don’t cop to it and pretend that things will just work themselves out, we’re looking at another long season.
As I mention above:
“What O’D needs to do is fill in the blanks around his core players. He knows what they are — CF, 3B, 2B, starting pitching. "
I’d also look to see if an upgrade is available in RF.
Also, it’s time for a new manager. I like Tracy, but there’s no magic left there and this team’s fundamentals have been too rough to ignore.
How would you have him fill in those blanks?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jul 21, 2011 8:51 PM MDT up reply actions
For one, the Rockies are gonna have to....
…stop crying about Denny Neagle and Mike Hampton and be willing to compete for free agents. Using those guys as an excuse is no longer acceptable.
Seth Smith is a good player
I mean, I don’t get it.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah's he's fine.
But he’s certainly upgradeable. Not the highest item on teh list.
Everyone is upgradeable
But, for heaven’s sake, you don’t make a team better by trading good players. This team is not going to go out and give a corner outfielder 80-100 million. And they’re not going to rebuild.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:58 PM MDT up reply actions
Then we're going to be stuck hoping and praying
for perfect health and above average luck, at least until the farm system dries up.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Not perfect health nor above average luck
average health and average luck to be competitive for division, good health and good luck to win 95ish games and compete for championship
That’s how mid-market teams work.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:01 PM MDT up reply actions
mid market teams rarely win 95 games
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I gotta run....
But I think it’s clear there are two ways of looking at this season’s disaster:
1. This is a fundamnentally good and telented team with few if any major holes that will be better next year because this season was just so unlucky
2. This is a team that has had major talent holes exposed and needs to start filing those holes.
It’s clear which position we each take, so I’m ready to call a truce and move along.
everyone would love to go out and spend money to improve this team
this is chess though, not monopoly
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm in the camp that this is a very talented team that has not reached its potential
Problem is that there are lots of guys who have played this game who have never reached their potential. I fear that the Rox may have an unusually high percentage of them.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:29 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't think we have enough guys reaching their potential to support them
Thta’s what makes this situation so difficult. The Rockies have much more talent than their record indicates, they just have way too many guys not living up to it.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:26 AM MDT up reply actions
i dont think you realize how bad everyone whose name didnt end in 'O' last year was:
the only hitter we had who compiled more than 2 WAR was olivo’s 3.3 and his name ends in O actually, so never mind that. after that, was dexter’s 1.9, smith’s 1.7, and stewart’s 1.5. nobody else was even above 1. seriously, our batting WAR went from 6.6 and 6.6, to 3.3, to 1.9, 1.7, 1.5, to barme’s 0.7, half of which was from being an outstanding fielder at TWO positions
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
and it's almost the exact same story with the pitching from last year
ubaldo at 6.3, hammel 3.7, chacin 3.0, belisle 2.2, francis and raffy 1.9, DLR 1.7, cook 1.5, rogers 1.4, street 0.9
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
I seem to remember a 2-11 stretch out of the ASB and a 1-13 finish that helped us get there too
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:23 AM MDT up reply actions
Tulo, Cargo and Ubaldo are all capable of consistently
playing close to the level they did last year.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:09 PM MDT up reply actions
You're joking me.
Tulo broke Babe Ruth’s September HR record.
Ubaldo had a sub 1.00 ERA the first month.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Right, so why are you just looking at one and two month time frames
Tulo also missed 50 games.
bottom line is that this team was in contention in late september despite their best player missing a huge chunk of the season.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm pretty tired of people using Tulo's Sept 2010 as a basis for his talent level
He’s not a 40+ HR guy.
He’s a great player, and one of the best. But our record without Tulo last year wasn’t far off our record the rest of the season.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I can't make sense of your argument
Tulo finished as 930 OPS guy.. look at his 1000ab trend line going back to 2009. I’d expect his ops to climb in the second half.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Expecting the Big Three to replicate career years is naive.
Each one of them could have a similar year, but the odds of all three doing it the same season is irrational.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I tend not to look at
A guy in his first full season having a career year, nor a guy who missed 50 games having a career.
Cargo has not his prime years yet, Tulo and Ubaldo have just begun theirs.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:25 PM MDT up reply actions
If you can honestly look at their 2010 numbers and expect that to be a career baseline
for the next five years, then so be it.
You’ll end up being disappointed
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I think they can each be 4.5- 7.5 war guys
the next 5 year
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions
So who is the biggest overachiever here
(2010 fWAR scores)
Tulo – 6.6
Cargo – 6.6
Ubaldo – 6.3
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:33 AM MDT up reply actions
frankly, i think ubaldo is
6.3 WAR is like halladay’s season average
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
I don't think anyone's is using his September as a basis for his talent level
If they were, we would see some 90 HR projections.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions
If this were May 1, I'd would agree.
But we’re fairly deep into the 2nd half of the season. Waiting around for those guys to get back to the levels of the past isn’t a luxury we have.
Right, but the alternative doesn't move us forward
next year…..
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Here's how it moves us forward....
If this season gives the Rox pause about exactly how good the “big 3” are, perhaps they’ll be more aggressive in upgrading the talent around them. Perhaps they’ll have less patience with underachivers (already starting there, I think – which is good), perhaps they’ll take a good hard look at the way fundamentals are taught throughout the system, etc. etc. etc.
If, rather than simply say “wait til next year. everything will be better”, the organization says “something was fundamentally wrong with this team, let’s fix it” then we’re all much better off for it.
If I can boil our discussion tonight down to anything it’s this:
In my opinion, being realisitic about a team’s weaknesses — and not living on past glories and miracles — can only help make a franchise better. Not being willing to face shortcomings means more years of mediocrity.
by evers44 on Jul 21, 2011 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
But the solution is not
trading quality bench players… It’s patience and a little good luck ( or nuetral luck), wait for the payroll to expand in a couple of years.
That’s how this thing works.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Meanwhile, other teams in the division widen the talent gap...
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
The Dodgers will have a new owner soon
The Padres have decent prospects coming up
The Giants aren’t going away.
The Dbacks have a half dozen TOR pitching prospects to our…one. Maybe.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
We have Cargo and Tulo signed long term
They’re Rockies for life. Fine. Everything else should be at least up for discussion for the right price.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
cargo and tulo can be dealt
why not? This team is flawed to its core, remember.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Taking my argument to the farthest extreme does nothing to further your point.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
But they go hand in hand
If you don’t believe a team with Cargo and Tulo can win, why keep them. The idea is to win in the next 2-3 years with those guys. Rebuilding around them makes little sense
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:56 PM MDT up reply actions
I believe they are both under contract for at least 7 more years
They aren’t the ones we should move to replenish the system.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
but they're the ones that would replenish the system
You might not think that Tulo or Cargo should be traded, but I came to exactly the same conclusion from what you’ve been saying. Based on your arguments, trading Cargo and Tulo would be the best possible move for this franchise…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jul 21, 2011 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Based on their contracts, we couldn't even approach a quality return
to match their value to the organization.
The only reason Ubaldo is in this conversation is because he’s a starting pitcher, the market is weak, and he’s only under contract for two more years
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Ok back to Ubaldo
We can think about winning 2014 when Tulo is 31 and Cargo 28?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, the D-Backs need a SS now
maybe we could pick up a bunch of those pitching prospects?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jul 21, 2011 8:48 PM MDT up reply actions
ubaldo is not a true talent 2.88 ERA pitcher, witness his 3.94 career SIERA, 4.04 career tERA
even if you weigh his recent years more than his early ones, you’re still not ending up with anything lower than mid-3s.
cargo and tulo MAY be true talent .400 wOBA hitters, but to expect that out of anyone not named pujols, bautista, or votto i think is unfair
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Is Ian Stewart done yet?
"I seek not to know the answers, but to understand the questions"
Kwai Chang Caine
JFK's Quote of the Day:
“On two legs, Mickey Mantle would have been the greatest ballplayer who ever lived.” ~Nellie Fox
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
love the mick
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
are we still waiting on results for Cargo?
From the way he let go of the bat and where he was holding it. Plus, the fact that he couldn’t squeeze Dugger’s hand. Speaking from own experience. I’m willing to say that he was a broken wrist. Maybe a hamate bone? I’m hoping that this isn’t the case, but, we must keep an open mind about this. It can be removed, and he will be back in 4-6 weeks. Sorry, were lucky that we didn’t lose Tulo for that long also. It will eventually come back and bother him also. Just give it time.
How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Twitter says inflamed ligaments
That could mean he’s out for awhile
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
At this point, you can't take chances with the guy
Let him sit for as long as it takes, even if its the rest of the year. It’s not worth running the risk of letting this thing become chronic.
Damn, this year sucks.
He's not going to be out the whole year man
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Did you examine his wrist?
You have no idea. Neither do I.
My point isn’t that he’s out for the year. Hell, he may be back by the weekend for all you or I know. It’s that, if doctors say he runs a risk of causing permanent damage by continuing to play with it, you shut him down. If you’re in contention, maybe you roll the dice. But this season, err on the side of caution.
.
If there was the potential for him to miss the year
He wouldn’t be flying on a plane to AZ 2night.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes, they will be cautious
But have a hard time believing he will miss the next 11 weeks.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions
FWIW
Tim Wheeler is still in the Tulsa game. He’s 1-2 with a double.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Is the hope that Wheeler gets the call?
"Don't give up, don't ever give up" - Jim Valvano
by nodakroxfan on Jul 21, 2011 7:05 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
My hope.
I’d rather not sit through the Cole Garner experience again. That solves absolutely zero questions for the future.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Cole Garner Experience?
The “experience” consisted of 9 at-bats. I would find it hard to believe that he has no future this season as the result of 9 at-bats. Albeit 6 of the at-bats were Ks, I would think there should be an adjustment period. Also, in those 9 at-bats, he had 3 RBIs. In comparison, Chris Nelson was afforded 80 at-bats and had 5 RBIs, and Ian Stewart has 87 at-bats with 1 RBI. Just a thought…
As a 27 year old lifetime minor leaguer trapped at the deepest position in the system
he has about as much future with the Rockies as I do
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
In the event, Cargo goes on the DL...
I would assume the organization would use the same padded gloves they used with Charlie and be hesitant to call up Wheeler at a time when the team is struggling to win. At this point in the season, I doubt the Rockies will be willing to give Wheeler the at-bats to make adjustments from AA to the big leagues. Then, why not let Garner get consistent at-bats and sink or swim?
Because Garner has no place in this teams' future
and Wheeler has very little to learn in AA.
It’d be a waste of valuable at bats.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
We'll see what the Rockies do...
Rockies will likely be hestitant to put Cargo on the DL, as they were before the all-star break. Wiggy will be called to be the starting LF. There will be no trades, no promotions and this entire discussion will be for nothing.
I would like to see Wheeler get a shot in Denver....
Why the hell not? Look at what Nicasio has done he has come up from AA. Why not give another AA guy a chance? Its time to see what the kid is made of. Maybe, just maybe, he can make his mark and earn a spot full time in Denver.
How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
Hey Rockies fans, as someone who recently battled inflamed ligaments in my wrist...
It was some of the worst pain I’ve ever had in my life. They lasted for more than a year before eventually having surgery to relieve the pressure and tension in my wrist.
Be patient with CarGo. It was hell of an injury to come back from for me, and I’m not swinging a bat multiple times a day to hit a fastball.
"It's not about me, it's about the team." - Martin Prado
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
So, would you put him on the DL?
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
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Probably. We really don’t know how severe the tendinitis is, but if it’s as bad as it looked on TV, I’d have him get a cortisone injection and place him in a cast for two weeks.
That’s what I did and it bought me about three months before it started to come back again. Perhaps it would do the same for CarGo and then he could undergo the surgery (the recovery is only about two weeks with brief rehab) in the off-season to take care of the problem for good.
"It's not about me, it's about the team." - Martin Prado
Twitter: @scottcoleman55
by Scott Coleman on Jul 21, 2011 7:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Never had that injury
But I tend to agree.
Shut Carlos down until the wrist cools off and he can regain his strength. Just because he’s a better hitter one-handed than most guys are healthly, that’s no reason to run him out there.
Get him healthy in hopes that the team can make a strong finish – not as in make-the-playoffs strong, but as in a 2009 Padres or 2010 Dbacks type of finish that builds some momentum for next year.
by Northsider1964 on Jul 21, 2011 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Tweet from Renck says
Also, as team said, he will be on flight to Phoenix
referring to CarGo.
Hmm
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
General Observations
1. I have watched over 500 games in the last month and seen every team in person in the MLB
. The Rockies are the worst situational team given their talent level . On both the offense and pitching side. Their execution is very poor.
2. The sooner they get rid of Stewart the better off they will be. The kid has no concept of what he is doing at the plate anmd his defense has regressed. Simply put, he needs out of this system as no one can get thru to him.
3. I have watched Wheeler 4 times in person. Solid player who needs about three weeks in Triple A. He no longewr needs to be playing at AA.
4. I watched Chris Nelson today in CS. The kid is wasting his time there. He is ready and they need to find him a place to play. The kid has Brandon Phillips type ability
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 8:52 PM MDT reply actions
opinion on Wheeler's defense?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
PLUS LEVEL
However he is a notch below Fowler on jump/react. Equal arm strength. He is more a player than Fowler in that he seems to be able to adjust quicker than Fowler to opposition tactics. I believe Fowler has relied too much on atheticism.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions
What about the power?
It appears to be legit, but is it line drive contact or uppercut?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
It is legit
the kid is still filling out. He is a line drive guy but if you hang one he’ll kill it.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:06 PM MDT up reply actions
What about Rosario?
We’ve heard that he appeared bored before the Futures game, but he’s turned it on since then stat-wise.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
MY Opinion
a plus defender who is a ways away offensively. He is overpowered rather easily.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for the input
I didn’t get a chance to make it to Tulsa this year
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
How concerned should the Rockies be about Wheeler's
strikeouts and is that keeping him from a call-up this year, in your opinion?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:11 PM MDT up reply actions
NO
much of this is the approach they use. Not that I agree with it completely. I would give him 50-60 ABs at the Springs and give him a half dozens starts is Sept.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions
What is the philosophy behind the approach?
And what is the approach, cliff notes version if you have a chance.
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:16 PM MDT up reply actions
TAKE PITCHES
SIT ON THE FB. LOOK TO DRIVE ALLEY TO ALLEY. I PERFER THE PITTSBURGH 1970S APPROACH.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:25 PM MDT up reply actions
So it's putting guys into a lot of 2 strike counts?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:26 PM MDT up reply actions
PRECISELY
I PREFER THE APPROACH OF LOOK FOR SOMETHING FAT EARLY.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I did if they were grooving pitch 1. Otherwise I spoiled untill they or I made a mistake.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Also they need to bring up Rogers
he showed me solid moxy by limiting damage without his best stuff.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 8:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Hey PHLP; Who else is on the chopping block and id there anybody DOD is willing to trade for?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I THINK THEY WILL STAY
their course. They have holes and they may look to veteran fill guys in the offseason. They are running thin in higher classes. They also have some underachievement issues. I simply believe they will avoid any FA action. They may trade one of their tops if someone makes them an offer they cannot refuse.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions
thanks PHLP
Dexter/Blackmon/Wheeler
Who is the starting CF next year?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:21 PM MDT up reply actions
If it were me
Gonzalez. He is the best CF in baseball period. I wolud rate him close to a 70.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Good question
I know Seth Smith is revered by some but I view hi as a bad fit in a corner in this park. He is a minus defender.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:44 PM MDT up reply actions
from left-center-right in 2012....
dex-cargo-wheeler?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
A DISTINCT POSSIBILITY
I do not work for the Rockies but I could see that as a possibility. I would unload Fowler personally.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think they'll goFA either but I could see O'Dowd useing some sideways trades to stir the deadwood.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
THE PROBLEM
WITH THEIR METHOLOGY IS THAT WHEN YOU FOCUS COMPLETELY FROM WITHIN AND YOU MISS, YOU CREATE WHAT THEY HAVE NOW. SOME OF THE DEADWOOD VALUE IS SLIGHLY ABOVE DRIFTWOOD.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions
You must never fall too much enarmoured
with prospects.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Can you give us the goods now
it would have been who(s) for whom(s)?
by rururuland784 on Jul 21, 2011 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Open ended
I would give these kids Rogers, Nelson, Wheeler some showcase time. There are a ton of teams in contention and they are not one of them. Someone can be ha and expolit the condition of some teams needing pieces that have not been in contention for awile. The pressure will be immense to to pull a trigger. Capitailze and restock the upper levels. I think they are sort of doing this with Fowler and Stewart. I would move Fowler and Stewart both. But Stewart is problemtic on a great deal of fronts. Other teams know he has processing issues.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I think a Stewart to Chicago for Beckham trade makes a ton of sense for both sides
but agreed. This season is over, time to play the young kids for the remainder and see what we have.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
NEVERR STRAIGHT UP
I were Ken Williams I would puke.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:42 PM MDT up reply actions
I also strongly believe they are preparing the wrong. I prefer the 60's/70's Cardinals model personally...
I think it would help their Road woes too.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
BING Devine, Stan and Red
knew how to win. The current folks in these positions have far mmore challenges to face. Those times are gone.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Well LaRussa uses a hell of a lot of smoke and mirrors to keep the tradition alive. I think we are head back to the late 60's inthe hitting/pitching cycle. We may have a stop in the early 70's but I think Weaver ball will be more like Weaver rally played
Not so much like the Rox are doing it now.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Sorry I'm getting ready for work and I can't type when I don't have time to see.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
GOOD NIGHT ALL
great talking to all of you. I have to catch a plane to NYC in the AM.
by PinchHitLancePainter on Jul 21, 2011 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions
G'night PHLP . Someday we need to share some beer!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
i buy all of these things
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
I'm not sure I buy the
I have watched over 500 games in the last month
part. There’s 720 hours in a month and the games have to take at least a couple right? – And this is assuming he doesn’t sleep.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions
I still complete agree with point #1 though
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 22, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions
we all know PHLP doesn't sleep
but i bet he has picture-in-picture in his hotel rooms
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Holy crap
Nick Schnaitmann line tonight
6.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
must be taking lessons from matzek
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll
Our farm system sucks...
if only we had as much talent in the pipeline as every other team in the division.
"Your classless organization in your unholy city accused our Team of an unspeakable act. It was baseless, the Giants are classless, and I have no sympathy for your eternal damnation." - poster Every6thDay at MCC who has been uncredited for too long!
The last time Todd Helton didn't reach base in a game?
June 19th.
I love that guy, forever and always.
Alanna Rizzo is my dream girl.
by Cargo's Ball Sack5 on Jul 22, 2011 3:27 AM MDT reply actions
Wow! That's so awesome.
Why can’t we just clone him?
Walk-off wins never get old no matter how many times they happen' - Jeff Francis
In mourning for Jorge's ulnar collateral ligament and Charlies left foot.
Still a member of the Jonathan 'Scrappy Doo' Herrera Fan Club - Puppy Power will prevail in the end.
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

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