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The Colorado Rockies and the 2011 MLB Trade Deadline

As the 2011 MLB Trade Deadline draws near, the Colorado Rockies find themselves with a question they haven't had to answer in some time: how to be effective sellers.

Really, it's pretty awesome that the team hasn't been blatant sellers at the deadline since 2005, when Joe Kennedy, Jay Witasick, and Shawn Chacon were traded for Larry Bigbie, Omar Quintanilla, and Ramon Ramirez. In 2005, the Rockies were in the midst of the first stage of a youth movement, the first fruition of a massive rebuild, so the moves were relatively minor in the grand scheme of the rebuild.

The first phase of youth has mostly come and gone, and the Rockies are relying on the second wave of talent to keep their claim of sustainability afloat. Gone are the days of Garrett Atkins, Matt Holliday, Jeff Francis, and Clint Barmes, and production (or a lack thereof) without any real accountability. Because really, the Rockies hadn't "arrived" yet. You could excuse wasted offense and constantly disappointing pitching on the fact that the team hadn't really arrived, that the players were still growing as major leaguers, that soon, it'd all be for something, that the games would count.

But now, 6 years later, the Rockies are at a much different point. Things have changed. Now, the team's successes and failures aren't just going through the motions on route to the Promised Land. Trying to compete in this organizational model was initially like climbing a hill to a plateau of success. Now that the team has "plateaued", the success is really seeing how large that mesa is, how long they can keep that window open before having to shut it, trade off players and restock the system with young, cost controlled talent.

During the offseason, the prevailing stance was that the Rockies had until 2014 to win it before beginning the next cycle of development/rebuild. After Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez signed their long terms deals, it seemed like that window just got a lot bigger, a lot more open. The only remaining question was how to handle Ubaldo Jimenez.

So now the team sits at 49-56, 12 games out of the division. Clearly things have not gone according to the original plan. It's hard not to step back and reevaluate where the team is at this point, where the organization is.

More post jump.

Star-divide

The core of the team seems to be solid. Despite relatively down years, Cargo and Tulo are still excellent contributors to the team. Jhoulys Chacin, despite a recent bout with extreme wildness, is shaping up to be a top-of-the-rotation starter for years to come. Ubaldo Jimenez has rebounded from his awful start and looks to have discovered how to pitch again, regardless of diminished velocity. Rex Brothers and Matt Reynolds seem to have the bullpen held down (and really, bullpens come and go anyhow).

The problem comes when you step outside of that core of players. Jason Hammel is having arguably the worst year of his career. Todd Helton is having a great season, but he's not going to be around forever, and really isn't the "core" moving forward anymore. Dexter Fowler has been an average CF, which is fine, honestly. Seth Smith has been above average, which is great. Despite the contributions of Mark Ellis and Ty Wigginton, 2B and 3B have been nothing short of abysmal. Ian Stewart, Chris Nelson, Jose Lopez, Johnny Herrera - these guys were supposed to take the position and finally have those breakout years that everyone hoped for.

A lot of the problem with trying to evaluate these deficiencies is that we look at each piece in a vacuum. If we exclude Stewart's miserable 2011, he's a slightly below league-average bat. Including 2011 makes him decidedly below average. Despite a below average UZR, Stewart's defense as been solid (with occasional lapses in judgment), but overall he's been a below-average player. Which isn't the worst thing in the world, when you consider other positions that the production is made up at. Dexter Fowler is somewhat similar - league average bat (slightly below) with plus CF defense. Seth Smith has finally had a solid year as a starter with average-to-below average defense in the OF. You could toss Chris Iannetta on this pile as well. Average-to-slightly-above-average.

Right there, that's 4 positions that kind of muddle around that range of somewhat-above-average to somewhat-below-average production. If we just took Ian Stewart at 3B, we could say, "well, Tulowitzki is such a good bat at SS, we can excuse Stewart's low production because Tulo picks up the slack, provided that Stewart defensively keeps up his end of the bargain". Same goes for Fowler in CF, Iannetta behind the plate, or whatever 80 wRC+ utility guy the Rockies throw out at 2B. That rationale works when you have 1, maybe, maybe 2 positions that fall under that "below average but made up for by SS" umbrella. If you raise that number, you're suddenly looking at a team that HAS to have its centerpieces performing at superstar levels to keep the rest of the lineup afloat.

Right now, the Rockies aren't that team.

So what can the FO do to improve the situation? Well, there are a few options:

1. Get involved in FA during the offseason.

During the 2011 season, trade Ty Wigginton ASAP. No offense to the guy, but this way you can play Ian Stewart every day come hell or high water for the rest of the year. Once the year is out, Stewart will either have regained some sort of value and can be traded, or has plummeted even farther and will be nontendered.

Once you have 3B available, reach deep into the coffers and sign Aramis Ramirez to a 4 year deal worth some stupid amount of money (probably in the $60M-80M range). Doing this would hold down 3B for the next 2 years while Nolan Arenado continues to develop, and when Todd Helton retires (or just becomes Jason Giambi) you can move Ramirez over to 1B for the 2014-2015 seasons. Ramirez is a steadily well-above-average bat, right on the cusp of All Star level performance, and would fit right into a role so sorely lacking in the Rockies lineup.

Sign Kelly Johnson to play 2B. He's having a down year thus far, but Johnson has one of those "every-other-year" things going on, and having that infusion of talent in the 2B position would be very welcome to many a Rockies fan.

Should signing Johnson not work out, re-upping Mark Ellis would be a cost-effective alternative, and would free the club to pursue an upgrade on Seth Smith, such as Michael Cuddyer, Nick Swisher (if the Yankees don't exercise their team option - they will), or maybe even Ryan Ludwick (although I don't see Ludwick as being an improvement on Seth Smith).

Bottom line, the Rockies need to upgrade at least 2 of the 4 positions (2B, 3B, RF, CF) in question here. I don't see a readily available CF upgrade on Fowler, but 2 of the remaining 3 - if not all 3 - HAVE to take a step up.

If FA doesn't work for you though, you could try:

2. Trading at the deadline/during the offseason

Here's the tricky part of this strategy: whom exactly do you trade and how do you make upgrades on your roster through trade? What CF is out there that would definitively upgrade CF for the Rockies that is also available? Or thinking a bit outside of the position, you could acquire a LF and move Cargo to CF again. Some guys who come to mind include mostly guys who aren't going to be moved (Alex Gordon, Shane Victorino, Michael Bourn, Adam Jones), and they'd likely require pretty hefty prospect loads.

The team isn't just trying to reinforce its 2012 roster, though. They've made it clear that they need to restock the upper levels of the farm as well as improve the major league club. There isn't a single player on the team that carries enough oomph to get the kind of return we need to build on while also improving the majors. This is why Ubaldo Jimenez has been talked about so much. Is trading your best pitcher a great idea for making yourself better in the future? Not necessarily. But if we're seriously talking about the earlier-mentioned package from the Yankees (2 top-tier SP prospects, 1 top C prospect, and one MLB pitcher - Betances, Banuelos, Montero, Nova), it's still something that needs to be considered.

But why Ubaldo? Well, here's why: of all the players available, none have the value to get the kind of return the Rockies need. The farm isn't ready to turn out any more big names immediately, and the organization would probably like to have another wave of youth come up in the fashion they've become accustomed to. This necessitates moving either Jimenez, Gonzalez, or Tulowitzki. You simply can't move Tulowitzki; the fallout would be nightmarish. You can't really move Gonzalez either; his contract may provide stability for the Rockies, but it would be a hindrance for other clubs who'd be interested in acquiring him. The Rockies would end up eating a good chunk of that money almost assuredly. This pretty much leaves Ubaldo Jimenez. He's not nailed down by a long term contract, and while his production isn't easily replaced, it could potentially leave the Rockies with upgrades at other positions that could make up for the lost production.

Are prospect returns a sure thing? Of course they aren't. The difference is that the current roster is looking like more of a sure thing: win totals in the low 80s, barring massive injury, in which case it looks more like ".500 or bust!" Again, no, forecasts and predictions are not sure things. Stewart and Fowler and everyone could suddenly break out and the Rockies could go on an absurd tear during the final 2 months of the regular season. But realistically speaking, we have to plan based around the best information and forecasting we have.

So if the return matches up with the Rockies' expectations on what you'd get from a Ubaldo Jimenez trade, it's something that needs to be very seriously considered. Unless, you'd rather:

3. Sit pat and just hope for the best

Let's not forget that Ubaldo, Jorge De La Rosa, Carlos Gonzalez, and Troy Tulowitzki to name a few have all lost time due to injury. If you recall 2009, 155 of the Rockies' 162 starts were made by the same 5 guys: Ubaldo, DLR, Jason Marquis, Jason Hammel, and Aaron Cook. The 2010 Giants had 150 of their starts made by the same 5 guys (Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Zito, Bumgarner). Keeping a healthy and talented rotation in one piece is a clear pathway to success for the Rockies.

This particular method is the most purple-tinted of them all, because it expects every current major leaguer to play to the best of their capabilities, have breakout years, stay healthy, and then any prospects looking to make an impact also suddenly reach their potential and lock down their positions for years to come. Guys like Christian Friedrich don't encounter any further setbacks, and random FA targets the Rockies kick the tires on turn into the next Jason Marquis or Jorge De La Rosa or dare I say Ryan Vogelsong.

The next few years would see the MLB arrival of Wilin Rosario and Nolan Arenado as the next Big Deals to step onto the playing surface at Coors Field. Guys like Thomas Field, Tim Wheeler, and Charles Blackmon would slide right into starting positions and experience little to no rookie adjustment period.

There's something to be said for staying the course, certainly. But let's be realistic here. Sitting pat basically guarantees mediocrity. Yes, again, anything could happen, but if we take the majority of the team's production over the past few years, it's average to above average, with a few Cargo, Tulo, and Ubaldo moments in there to inflate the numbers a bit. Past those 3 (and Helton) though, the team is pretty "meh" and I'm not convinced they're the guys who can get it done any longer. I'm also not convinced that Rosario/Wheeler/Blackmon/Arenado are going to just come up and start making Sportscenter on a nightly basis; there's likely going to be an adjustment period.

So if we take the development time remaining for these guys (in the minors, anyhow) and then factor in, let's say a season of MLB development, we'd probably be looking at the 2013-2014 season for their impact to be felt, and frankly, that might be too late for the Rockies.

So to summarize this debacle of a piece, here's how I see it. You have 2 options: trade Ubaldo or don't trade Ubaldo.

Don't trade Ubaldo, you either have to go on a spending spree (unlikely) or stand pat, and given the organization's reluctance to sign big FAs, that spells mediocrity that comes with standing pat.

If you DO trade Ubaldo, yeah, the team might still suck. The prospects might bomb. The return might end up fizzling. They might end up worse than when they started. On the other hand, they might end up with a couple of guys who fit in the top half of the rotation and another guy or two who could impact another position. Point being, there's chance for catastrophic failure, and there's chance for rampant success.

Basically put, if you don't trade Ubaldo and the ownership doesn't pony up, the team is going to remain mediocre with flashes of good here and there. If you do trade Ubaldo, the team could either get much worse or much better, but certainly not stay right where they are.

So what do I do? Well, I hate to say it, because I love the guy so much, but I want this team to have a shot at competing. A real shot. I want to talk down naysayers by pointing them to our WS ring. I just can't see that happening with the team in the state it's currently in. I'd much rather have Jimenez along than somebody else, but if Jimenez is the key for getting the return that pushes the Rockies over the top in the NL West, well that's a sacrifice a winning club has to make from time to time.

Deep down, isn't that what we all want? For the Colorado Rockies to be a winning baseball club?

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Alas, we all love Ubaldo.

The problem is this:

Don’t trade Ubaldo, you either have to go on a spending spree (unlikely) or stand pat, and given the organization’s reluctance to sign big FAs, that spells mediocrity that comes with standing pat.

Which is what leads me to want to trade a great player. I’d like to here some plausible, alternate routes to something greater than mediocrity if we keep Ubaldo.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 12:00 PM MDT reply actions  

In the immortal words of Tina Turner

What’s love got to do with it?

I’m not in the Keep Ublado camp because I’m blinded by his punchouts or his 15-1 stretch or his really cool name. I maintain that you cannot use Ubaldo as currency to fix the holes in the lineup AND get the starting pitcher innings you would need in order to even maintain the current level of mediocrity.

If you doubt the importance of starting pitcher innings, just look at the biggest difference between the last group of Rockies that actually accomplished something (in 2009), and the all-hat-and-no-cattle crapfest they have been since.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

So,

what are the alternatives?

I don’t want to use Ublado to fix the lineup. I want to use him to give us the flexibility to pursue personnel that is better than last chance veterans and minor league retreads. Right now, we don’t have enough talent to do this, which is why we ended up with Jose Lopez and Ty Wigginton.

We’re likely to get more of the same next year unless we have more talent to pursue our needs.

Unless you know of another way.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't understand your statement below
I don’t want to use Ublado to fix the lineup. I want to use him to give us the flexibility to pursue personnel that is better than last chance veterans and minor league retreads.

For me, that’s using Ubaldo to fix the lineup. And there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, if we actually had some MLD-ready starters to make up for the loss of innings.

I would not only keep Ubaldo but go after a good reliable starter to boot, and try to make the team better that way. That will require guys like Fowler and Stewart to step up, and at least one of the young OFs as well. But that’s how much I value starting pitching. And no I don’t expect our guys to ever put up numbers like the staffs that play at AT&T and Petco. But I want a rotation that isn’t based on wishing and hoping, and that doesn’t run the tires bald on the bullpen by July 1.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Going after another pitcher is good.

But who and how? Without more talent to trade, we aren’t getting someone else.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

There are plenty of guys available in FA

that can be signed at a reasonable contract and be an improvement over Hammel/Cook. The Bettis/Cabrera line isn’t that far away, either.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Brad Penny, Chris Young, Marquis, Harden, Colon, Edwin Jackson

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Did you check these out?

Pitchers with worse stats than Hamlet:

Chris Young is not a starter. Penny and Harden have stats equal to or worse than Hammel, and they don’t pitch at Coors.

That leaves us with Colon, Marquis, and Jackson. Marquis made 7.5 Million. Jackson made 8.375 million. The Rockies are not going to pay that for an FA pitcher slated for the #5 spot.

That leaves us with Colon.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well then, tell us precisely who you are going to get for Ubaldo

Then maybe your argument will be air-tight. Until then, you’re just dealing in generalities the same way we are.

And again there’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone has opinions on how to improve the team. But you are talking down to the people who want to keep Ubaldo, as if we’re just star-struck teenagers who like to watch him pitch.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

How am I talking down to anyone?

Because I said that we all love Ublado? I love Ubaldo. He is a great pitcher. How is that talking down to anyone?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

You're telling us the only way this team can take a step forward

is to trade Jimenez for some nameless, faceless package of players. Then when we say why we think that’s a bad idea, you want us to present you with alternatives that are far more specific than anything you’ve put on the table.

What if I say we should sell high on Cargo, even if we have to pick up a portion of his contract? We get a potential top-of-the-rotation starter and a young promising 2B in return, and then pray like hell that Fowler, Wheeler and Blackmon can make up some of the difference. That’s hardly a fool-proof plan, but it has no more pitfalls than “we have to trade Ubaldo.”

Anyway, it’s not that I think I’ve won this argument hands-down or that you are not entitled to your opinion. I just think there are very sound reasons for not trading Jimenez, unless the return package is absolutely off-the-charts fantastic. I think O’Dowd feels that way too, which is why he’s holding his ground. But when you start down the road of “there’s no other way to improve the team so we have to pull the trigger” – that’s when you end up settling for a substandard trade package.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I never said that it is the only way.

It is the only way that I can see. I am asking for someone who sees another way to explain it to me. No one has done so in a way that is plausible, or at all really. That’s all. I really don’t want to trade Ubaldo, but I want to know how we get better by not doing it.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

And I think that is has to be a fantastic package too.

So I am right there with you. I just worry about what happens to the team if we don’t get that package. Because I think we are out of options right now.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

Have mercy

Let’s start here……

Coming into this season, what record did you predict the Rockies to have, all things being equal (nuetral luck, relatively good health)

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

I will play this game, but I don't find it to be valid

so you may want to stop here. My best wishes have nothing to do with the reality of production of the team and the historical production of the players. If anything, I was not taking into account the historical production of the players.

88 wins.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

But I think the idea is to look at historical production

compare it to this year, and then form your analysis of what to expect in the future.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think that if I had really taken historical production into account,

the Rockies should have been pegged as a .500 team. And I think that that is where we are.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Let me put it another way

Look at the team we had in 2009 – the one that won 92 games. Did that lineup not have holes in it? Of course it did. Did it blow teams away with relentless offense? Not that I recall.

Biggest difference was a sound, solid, starting rotation that kept the team in most every game and allowed the bullpen to come up for air once in a while. The team’s weak spots were simply easier to live with, because the rotation allowed us to win about 3 out of every 5 series, and even pull off a few sweeps.

If I’m charged with finding the quickest path back to 90 wins, that’s absolutely the direction I’m going.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

All 5 starters with SP wins in double digits.

It was a sight to see.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jason Marquis

was pretty good for us that year. A complete innings eater. Would throw out a clunker once a month but he was the perfect #4 type starter.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

He was arguably the MVP of that team as of Labor Day

His Septemember was terrible. But September doesn’t matter a lick if he hadn’t been there the first 5 months.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry - "September"

I must have been thinking of Raffy :)

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 2:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Septe - member

Let’s see, Septe would be 7, right??

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 29, 2011 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Then why did you provide it?

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 29, 2011 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

But the problem this year hasn't been the pitching.

Despite the injuries, the pitching has improved. The problem has been that most of our offensive production is coming from one outfielder who is batting lead off, another who is being platooned, a 1B on his last legs, and our team stud, who’s been off.

That’s a tenuous situation, and will cause us problems even if we improve to something like: Ubaldo, DLR, Nicasio, Chacin, Marquis, all healthy.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's a really good rotation though

even if we accept that our current offensive production is a baseline, that’s a much better team.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes.

But still not a playoff team. We need more offensive production. In a sense, we are out of sync. Our pitching is on schedule, but our offense still needs time. The concern would be that, in three years, it will be the opposite. Ubaldo will be gone, and we’ll be knocking the cover off the ball.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

But you can create 1-3 wins of offensive production

internally.. both with improvements from current players, guys coming up, and a signing or two.

internally.. both with improvements from current players, guys coming up, and a signing or two.Again, I think we’re looking at an absolute nadir or production at every spot on the field outside of 1B.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think pitching was a bigger problem this year than most acknowledge

Because we ham-and-egged it through April with some Esmil Rogers here and some Greg Reynolds there, mixed with a while lot of Clay Mortensen and heaping portions from the bullpen. The numbers weren’t half bad, but that’s not going to hold up for a full season. Then about the time the offense found a little traction, lo and behold the bullpen’s gassed and our #3 starter is a guy who just arrived from AA.

Man for man I think the pitching’s been better than the offense this year, but it needs reinforcements just as badly.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

So,

if both the pithing and hitting are bad, why are we not going to look into moving Ubaldo?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Because I think our internal position player options

Like Rosario, Wheeler, Blackmon, a seemingly rejuvenated Dexter Fowler, etc., and even maybe a FA or two, stand a better chance of making an impact than our internal pitching options have of filling an innings hole the size of the Grand Canyon.

by Northsider1964 on Jul 29, 2011 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

And I think that's the crux of the argument,

I’m not sold on what’s coming up. Particularly because what has come up over the last few years has been pretty mediocre once it made it to the big leagues.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'mn with you whole-heartedly

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

So after all that reading,

It just turned out to be another why we should trade Ubaldo argument…

If the Rockies were offered Montero, Nova and the 2 B’s. then sure it makes sense, but most sources seem to indicate nothing close to this has been offered.
More like Montero and Nova, and one other 2nd tier prospect.

My preference is to trade Wigginton and Spilly even for a bag of balls, the savings should help us add at least one decent FA, not another gamble/utility guy like Wiggy/Lopez.
If we got a decent offer for CDI I’d trade him too, but I wouldn’t be giving him away.
Looking forward to Wheeler and Rosario being promoted, start their development as soon as they are close to ready.

by Britbronco22 on Jul 29, 2011 12:41 PM MDT reply actions  

Well, it wasn't a why we should trade Ubaldo

it’s “here are the hard choices: 1. trade Ubaldo 2. Drop a lot of money in FA 3. Continue being mediocre”

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 29, 2011 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

The third option also describes the first option in the near-term ( at the very least)

What about the option where we keep Ubaldo, drop a decent amount of money in FA to plug 1-2 holes, and have intrinsic improvement through health, through better luck with batted balls, players like Fowler developing, and a turn-around in close games? None of those things are unreasonable.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

that was kind of the #1 option

Keep Ubaldo, sign a couple of big bats.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 29, 2011 6:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'd love to sign a couple of big-bats

But I think we can sign a couple of decent bats and see healthy improvement.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Trading Ubaldo makes sense in very few scenarios:

Essentially, you have to get top pitching prospects in return, but more than anything, you also need an exciting corner infield prospect back. This team has the catching and outfield prospects it needs in it’s farm system for the upcoming three-year window. If you’re going to dump your best pitcher, you need to get the future at 1B or a middle-of-the-lineup quality RH 3B. Otherwise, Ubaldo is helping this team more through the duration of his contract.

You also need to decide what your rotation is supposed to look like — you need a specific plan. Are Chacin and Nicasio supposed to be your top two spots if Ubaldo is dealt? Then what are your next three spots? Do Friedrich and Cabrera fit in that three-year window? What about Matzek, Tago, Bettis, et al.? I just see a giant gap before the farm pitching talent is ready for the show. This team doesn’t have anyone to plug in at AA and AAA right now.

I think your best bet is keeping the horse pitcher, hope De La Rosa can make a full recovery, and see if a Wheeler/Rosario type prospect is your solution in the middle of the order.

by juno106 on Jul 29, 2011 12:49 PM MDT reply actions  

Why does this have to happen in the same trade?

Couldn’t we get top value for Ubaldo now, then flip current or new talent later to fill those holes as well?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

It takes time to flip prospects.

Like at least a full season. And we’ve all seen how attached O’Dowd gets to minor league talent. I just don’t see it happening.

Dealin’ Dan said it would take a “Herschel Walker”-type trade for Ubaldo, and I agree. You need to get all that back, because that kind of pitcher just doesn’t become available very often.

by juno106 on Jul 29, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

There is only one Walker deal

And that’s the Yankeers deal, and I don’t think anyone is against that trade (all 4 prospects).. But that probably isn’t happening.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not against that one

but if we do it, we still have holes at 3B, 2B (now or when Ellis leaves, readers choice…) maybe CF (again, optional). So how do we fill those holes then?

As Petro says, we could flip some of what we got. Who? Well, Montero is the long-term Helton replacement, and is supposed to start helping as a C/1B backup in 2012. He’s the only offensive help, so it makes little sense to flip him.

Banuelos or Betances is the “upgrade” to the rotation. The guy with TOR stuff. But since there are two of them, maybe some room to flip one of them. Nova holds us over until JdlR gets back, and then still probably has a spot in the rotation until/unless Friedrich develops.

Basically, we’re left with one of the B’s to flip for 2B/3B help, unless we’re willing to flip 2 of the pitchers – which puts all the onus for replacing Ubaldo on the one guy we keep. Even with the 4 prospect dream package, it’s not as if we’re overflowing with guys to flip to fix the holes we have…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

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by Junction Rox on Jul 29, 2011 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm against that one

For all of the reasons you listed. This team has holes. This team has Ubaldo. The idea is we fill those holes in exchange for trading Ubaldo.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Don't you see how illogical it is

to trade a SP for players that only leave you in the same situation as before?

There is a cost in having to make that next move to get the pieces this team needs.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

It doesn't leave us into same situation.

It gives us three or four prospects that we didn’t have that serve as currency to pursue our personnel goals. Right now, we have no currency. That’s the point. It might leave the MLB talent the same, but it allows us to get more talent. Right now, we have the talent, but an inability to add to it. And our current talent is several games under .500.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

1) I disagree that our current talent is several games under .500

there are variety of variables that haven’t gone in our favor this year

2) Ubaldo is the best currency we’ll have, he’ll certianly be better currency than the guys we receive.

Trading Ubaldo for guys we can’t use counts as a cost, either as diminishing returns or the cost of having to break those prospects up and move them for guys we can use.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

How many games better are we if you discount "a variety of variables?"

Are you saying that we are 12 games better? Because that’s how far we are out of first. I would say that we are about 5 games better, which still leaves us as a .500 team at the moment, and we may fall further.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're a .500 team

without our best pitcher for about a month and a half, without our second best pitcher for two months, with below average production from our two best players, with a complete outlier performance at 3B all season, only 25 games with a real 2Bman, and an unexpected cliff-dive from our 4th SP, and lets not forget all the starts in the OF by Spilly (completely fallen off) and Wiggy.

Under this model you’re always going to need to have at least “nuetral” luck.

I happen to think that Fowler is showing signs that he can be an above average CFer. Of course, if Fowler was another team’s prospect, I’m sure you’d be in love with him.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're not a .500 team though.

With those issues, we are below .500. Without those issues, I think we are a .500 team.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

We're pretty much a .500 team now

win you look at run differential and our peripherals. You’re saying if we had close to league average production at 3B and 2B for an entire season, a healthy rotation, slightly better production from our two best players…. we’re a .500 team?

If that is honestly what you believe, then you really should be dirving a total rebuild here. I’m talking about a complete rebuild.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Individually, Ubaldo has greater value.

But not greater than the group. And Ubaldo’s value diminishes while the value of the others is maintained or increases.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Why would the value of these other prospects increase

what are you basing that assumption on?

The idea is very simple from a trade Ubaldo POV: Trade him to shore up internal weaknesses.

Trading him to get prospects who then must be traded for players/prospects that shore up weaknesses is simply not an economically prudent thing to do. You never force yourself into another move.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

This goes back to the point.

How do we get the personnel we need?

You are maintaining that we don’t really need more than another starter and a 3B. How do we get that?

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Trade Ubaldo

Not trade one or two of the prospects we got from Ubaldo but weren’t good enough to be on the roster.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right

I wish I could remember what this term was called in economics……

But, if you trade Ubaldo you have to get back 1-2 pitching prospects and you really should get an MLB ready 3B.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Law of Diminishing Returns?

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know that one and I've mentioned it in this thread

if we sat on those prospects, but I think there is another term that would describe the cost of doing business again.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know what you're talking about

I can’t think of the term, either. I keep thinking of entropy for some reason.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

haha, yeah I'm searching for it

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's simple

I want the holes filled with what we get for Ubaldo, not with what we might get for what we might get for Ubaldo.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think this is as necessary,

but I think there needs to be a clear plan on how we get those pieces. Without that, I am not for the trade.

I think that without a trade we are pretty much out of bullets, and we aren’t spending the money.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

This all comes back to the percieved holes

From my POV, this organization can fill these holes internally.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

When?

They can do it, but not before other holes open up.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

You're really just talking about 1B

and I can personally see Helton putting up similar numbers so long as he has a decent replacement to give him days off.

We have guys that will be ready to contribute next year.,

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Again, this is far easier than

trading Ubaldo for prospects who would then be traded to fill in those holes ( all while losing our No.1 pitcher)

There are plenty of guys who can be signed at as 3 1/2 4th SP — a long list of guys who would be improvements. 3B is tricky, but I think it obvious that if even we stand pat, our production at 3B will be better than what it was this year.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's obvious.

I have rooted for losing teams that never get better even though it seems obvious. I’m not so optimistic.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

So you are in favor of a complete rebuild then

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I see a team with 4 quality starters

under team control for the forseeable future. We have 3 pitching prospects that project as MOR or BOR in the pipeline at at least high A, at least one of those will be up next year. Cabrera or Bettis could have TOR potential. We have between 2-4 2b prospects that could be up and producing leage average within the next year or 1 1/2 year, and we have 3 OF prospects that will should project around league average coming up as well (though you can make the case that Wheeler/Blackmon/Matthes can all exced that)

The one issue is finding a 3B solution until Arenado is ready.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

As I said,

optimistic. i don’t have as much optimism. And I am worried about the fact that by the time some of these prospects are actually productive, we will have other holes that still need filled.

JDLR and Ubaldo are not tied up for the foreseeable future either.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Both through '14, assuming options are picked up

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good first post

Welcome to the Row.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jul 29, 2011 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't see why it's an either spending spree or standing pat (as an alternative to trading Uball)

When healthy, Mark Ellis has consistently been a top 10 2B. (he’s the best 2B we’ve ever had) and he’s still quite capable of a 3.5-4 fWAR if he plays 140-150 games (he’s been better than that pace with us)

Really, I see two holes going into next year…. 3B and a somewhat reliable middle to back-end of the rotation guy.

Wiggy, Street, Betancourt/Belisle can all be traded to free salary without losing a whole lot in the ’pen ( or, much less likely, traded for a MLB ready 3B or middle to back-end SP)

You have Nelson to play Wiggy’s utility role (at a third of the cost), you have Brothers to close, and either Belisle/Betancourt can be replaced by a more cost-effective reliever— neither of those guys have been reliable even as 7th inning guys.

If you’re able to move all or some of those guys that’s 10-16 million off the books.

You throw in one of our outfielders, like Smith, into a trade package this winter, and I think it’s plausible you could fill in one of those holes immediately. I’m off the mind that either Blackmon/Wheeler can match or come very close to matching (if not exceeding) Smith’s production, when defense and baserunning is also part of the equation.

If you’re able to trade for that 3 1/2 4th starting pitcher or 3Bman, you should still have enough money to persue what you aren’t able to trade.

Ramirez was mentioned (though 80 million seems like an overstatement, even in this market) but Casey Blake may be bought out this winter.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 12:56 PM MDT reply actions  

Mark Ellis is 34, so I don't see him being a 4 WAR player.

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
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by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 29, 2011 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

And he doesn't need to be in order to be effective for this team.

Solid defense and a league average contact bat will get the job done.

by juno106 on Jul 29, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Contact bat... Music to my ears...

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am with you here

He is on the back side of his career – he would be fine if we were solid in the other spots but with our issues at 3B, C, and CF one has to question whether you can carry declining value from Ellis.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

This is very optimistic.

Wiggy, Street, Betancourt, and Belisle have little value above bench players or other middle relievers.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Street is among the league leaders in saves

You’re saying these players can’t be traded?

I’m willing to admit that they probably can’t be moved to address the 3B or SP situation, but they’d free up the money to solve those two areas.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Street is not a closer on a contending team.

He’s a setup man, and an expensive one at that. His value is not very high. That’s why there aren’t a lot of rumors around for him.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bell may not be moved

It’s a market thing too

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

I thought about Blake too

but his age 38 season gave me pause.

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 29, 2011 5:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

he might not be the Blake of 2010

but he’d surely be an improvement over 2011 CR 3B. The guy has been a 2.5 to 4 war since 2006.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't hate the idea, I promise

I just worry that 2012 will suddenly be the year that it’s APPARENT that Casey Blake retire.

Then again, we got some mileage out of Melvin Mora.

/kills self as Tracy starts Blake at 2B

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by Andrew Martin on Jul 29, 2011 6:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, there's always that possibility I suppose with older players

but before his injury this year Blake was doing what he’d been doing the last 5-6 years.
 
He’d be a stop-gap for Arenado and wouldn’t break the bank.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

he was a 3.4 last year

in 124 games

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 12:59 PM MDT reply actions  

Hold tight on Ubaldo

I just do not want to see the Rox settle for a lesser package then the grand slam O’Dowd is trying to hit.

I disagree with Andrew’s original post that says Seth Smith is above average. Really he is not – I have been saying this for several months now. The guy is a #4 outfielder on a winning team. He has limited power and is average at best defensively.

I think some of the biggest issues this team has is that for awhile Brad Hawpe and Garrett Atkins were pretty damn good offensively and we have not come close to replacing their production since their bizarre falls off the cliff. Those guys were better than the sabermetrics now say they were.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 1:23 PM MDT reply actions  

But Smith has matched Hawpe's production (when defense and baserunning are considered)

Not saying we can’t do better in RF, and in fact the best way to get better is to trade one or two of our OFers.

Clearly, our biggest issues have been 3B and 2B. We have one of them solved.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

You have to be kidding

Smith is no better on defense than Hawpe was – advance stats be damned. Hawpe’s range was his weakness defenisvely but you didn’t run on him – honestly I felt Hawpe was a better outfielder than Holiday who always seemed to take bad routes to the ball.

Hawpe averaged 27 homers and 93 RBI for the 4 year stretch from 06-09 – Smith has never come remotely close to either of those two figures.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

I hear what you're saying

I think you may be underestimating Hawpe’s lack of range and overestimating the real difference in arm.

Smith has been an above average hitter his whole career, and coming into this year he hit more hr/ab than Hawpe.

He’s second on the team in XBH this year, 7 triples, 8 hr and 26 double could very well be 13 hr, 23 2b, 4 3b given Smith’s swing.

Hawpe never produced more than a 2.8 war, Smith did that when he came off the bench in 2009. and he’s likely to eclispe Hawpe’s average war once again this year.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am not a fan of WAR

which makes me an outcast at times here. WAR is a computer generated stat that is created in a vacuum.

Hawpe could jack the ball out of the yard – it is becoming evident that Smith does not have the power needed from a corner outfielder playing at Coors.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Smith's hr/fb and hr/pa

is better than Hawpe’s, career wise.

Smith has hit a ton of line-drives off the wall that more times than not go out. I still think Smith has the kind of power you’re looking for, the problem is the platoon issue (which Hawpe had early too)

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

enjoy

Will Jimenez be traded?

--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--

1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]

by bishoPurple on Jul 29, 2011 1:31 PM MDT reply actions  

Ubaldo is just a 2nd or 3rd starter. Seems like he is saying. Who are the Rockies?

How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.

by Roxman4ever on Jul 29, 2011 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

as he says, behind verlander, sabathia, lester, ubaldo is absolutely a 2 or 3

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 4:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

where does he get being a third starter from

At worst, Ubaldo is a fringe No.1

And Ubaldo is right there with those guys if you take out that first month and a half.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

FIP/xFIP/SIERA, past two calendar years, for those pitchers named in that video

verlander: 2.84/3.24/3.14
sabathia:3.07/3.47/3.40
lester:3.36./3.24/3.24
beckett:4.00/3.66/3.59 (i think 2011 beckett 3.13/3.36/3.41 is closer to his true talent than 2010 4.54/3.86/3.82, but i also really hate him, so whatever)
ubaldo:3.27/3.54/3.61

dont get me wrong, ubaldo is obviously very, very good, but he’s not as good as those guys. obviously beckett is only good in odd-numbered years, but he is much better this year

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 8:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

I just have a question here?

I am hearing indians are willing to give up “untouchables” for U and are among the major players for him. What would this deal look like? Does this change anyones opinions on trading Ubaldo? Or is it all so fundamental: Don’t trade a young ace for people that you could hope would be as good as him. As oppsed to: He is relatively unproven himself, if we can get pitching talent as well as fill lineup holes, we need to do this, this team has to many holes that need to be filled

by jlbroxfan on Jul 29, 2011 2:15 PM MDT reply actions  

The Indigenous Americans

seem like a pretty popular trade partner, because they have players at 2B or 3B that match up with our needs. If it looked like one of those two guys, one of their young starters (Pomeranz or White) and another top 10 prospect from their system, I could possibly get behind that. Being a greedy sort, I’d like it better if we got 3 of those top 4 guys….

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 29, 2011 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

3 of the 4 and we have a deal.

i dunno if they’ll offer that up though.

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by black_knight101 on Jul 29, 2011 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

I doubt that they would

But then, I doubt any team would give up what I want to see in return. This, for better or worse, is why I am not a major league GM…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 29, 2011 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

Most of the trade talk is misguided

I really do not understanmd a lot of this trade talk. Taking some of the actions listed here just don’t make sense.

I agree that Aramis Ramirez would be a great acquisition and would help the team. But spending a fortune for someone whose services are short lived does not make sense! Maybe you can swing a great trade and land him, but it would be tough to do!

Why in the heck would you trade away Wigginton and keep Stewart. Stewart’s off year has been one of the main resoasons the Rox never got going this year. Wiggy is versatile, and was not that expensive to begin with. You should let Stewart go, and keep Wiggy. In fact, if you can get him for a good price, you should extend Wiggy!

I have yet to understand why everyone is in love with this Wilin Rosario. He is not that impressive with a bat, and no better than other options as a back stop. Worse, he has a repaired knee that may not hold out while he is continuing as a catcher. He is not anyone the Rox can depend on for the future. Keep looking!

Why in the world would anyone consider trading Seth Smith?? He is great at the plate and gets better each year. He is affrordable, and still has years ahead of him. He is one of the guys they need to keep! He is important to the Rox organization for some time to come.

Not sure why the BO is offering up Ubaldo, but maybe just for the purposes of initiating trade discussions. He is still young enough to deliver in coming years. But I suppose an SP is more expendable than a top bat. Only trouble is, who are they going to get to replace him? Wandy Rodriguez is not as good and is a lot more expensive. Anyone else is beyond realism. Better to dance with the one you got, even if you can get any number of good “prospects”. Heck, we got the prospects, what we need is players! How long will it take to develop another pitcher with Ubaldo’s capacity? Too long!

I see no reason to trade Ellis. A lot of blood was shed just in getting him here. He is better than anyone else who has been there so far this year!

It would be really nice if the Rox suddenly emerge from the trading this weekend with someone who could really make a difference for the team. But since they have not been able to do this in the past, why would this time around be any different?

Please don’t give up one of the good guys to get someone who is questionable!

by Real Perspective on Jul 29, 2011 2:30 PM MDT reply actions  

They're offering up Ubaldo

because he’s the only player we have that has real value.

This doesn’t mean that he will be traded, but he’s the only one that will give us any impact if we do trade him.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

this

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Shoulder-to-Shoulder for life!
Hollidayrain Music

by Hollidayrain on Jul 29, 2011 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wiggy's terrible.

I know Stewie’s worse than terrible, but at least Wiggy might turn into another player. Stewie’s just going to turn into an Independent League player.

Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ

by Yokel on Jul 29, 2011 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

FA Signings

Aramis Ramirez, I would not want to give that much money to him. He’d be a decent signing, I just question the value.
If he isn’t too costly, I would consider Edwin Encarnacion as a possibility to be a backup role for us.
There are some OFer’s that I would strongly look at, not just for starting but also being role guys.
David DeJesus, take out his outlier of work in Oakland and he’s a solid OFer.
Josh Willingham.

by TehChamp on Jul 29, 2011 2:57 PM MDT reply actions  

It would appear that O'Dowd probably won't get what he wants for Ubaldo...

…as far as we know. The Yankees said no to Montero, the Bs, and Nova and the Reds won’t part with Mesoraco (sp?) Maybe the Tigers blink and give up Porcello plus Turner plus whatever but I’m thinking that U-ball is not going to be the ATM that some are assuming he will be.

There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.

by Since1993 on Jul 29, 2011 2:57 PM MDT reply actions  

In which case, he likely remains a Rockie

I would think

Carlos Gonzalez has an extraordinary tendency to amplify light through stimulated emission of radiation in frequent bursts.
Shoulder-to-Shoulder for life!
Hollidayrain Music

by Hollidayrain on Jul 29, 2011 3:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

That's the conclusion to which I've arrived.

And I’m good with it. Wonder if we could get a decent 3B prospect for Huston Street.

There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.

by Since1993 on Jul 29, 2011 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am not in favor of trading Ubaldo

The reasons why the Rockies are not contending this year:

1) Their two best offensive players (CarGo and Tulo) both were lousy the first half of the season, which lousiness likely won’t be duplicated next year

2) Their ace was awful the first two months

3) Their second best pitcher went down with an injury, leaving them with essentially 2 middle of the order pitchers to go on and 1 replacement pitcher, though Chacin turned some ace-like performances

4) Ian Stewart became the worst offensive player in MLB

5) CarGo has battled injuries for a good amount of time

6) Mark Ellis came too late

7) Dex was also being uncharacteristically bad

Honestly, I don’t think Ubaldo needs to be traded to contend next year. With a healthy and more normal CarGo and Tulo, a rotation anchored by Ubaldo, Chacin, Nicasio, De La Rosa (for most the year), and a slightly better Hammel, plus Mark Ellis at second and less of an outlier year from Stewart, the team is just fine. Fowler seems to be doing better at hitting leadoff, even counting for some regression. Sure, maybe trade Wigginton and a little more to get somebody better at 3B, but that’s all I’m seeing is really needed. Jim Tracy probably needs to go, too, quite honestly, since the attitude just isn’t working.

Fowler
Ellis
CarGo
Tulo
Helton
Smith
Stewart (or somebody better if a trade or deal is possible)
Iannetta or Rosario
Ubaldo, Chacin, De La Rosa, Nicasio, Hammel (or Cook if he gets better)

That’s actually a pretty formidable lineup without all the down years happening all at once in 2011.

by Mr. Rockie on Jul 29, 2011 4:06 PM MDT reply actions  

imagine how i feel about my cole hamels post

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

i think we're the only ones here...

you wanna do some blow and go to a night club?

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 4:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

Having to do actual work

on a Friday afternoon should be illegal…

We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!

In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener

by Junction Rox on Jul 29, 2011 4:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Stewie is too terrible to even consider for next year. Delete him! Hopefully Rosario will not be on the team. We need real talent and he is not it! Hopefully we can make a couple of upgrades in some positoins, starting with 3B. But keep Smitty for sure!

by Real Perspective on Jul 29, 2011 10:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

you don't think the organization's universal consensus top prospect, and a top-50 prospect overall, is not real talent?

what’s your definition of real talent, then?

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 30, 2011 12:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

It’s a pretty broad leap to assume that the current personnel is going to perform so much better in 2012 (relative to 2011) that it makes up the difference between .470 ball and .580 ball (which the Giants are playing, just to set a baseline). While this by no means suggests I don’t think Tulo, Gonzalez and Ubaldo aren’t All-Star level talents, there’s as good a chance that 2010 was a career year for all three as there is that they’ll hit that level or beyond in the future. And if this core group was only an 83-win team WITH those guys having ‘career years’, they need a big jump to get to that contention level everywhere else if those guys fall short of that ‘career year’ level.

There’s just too many ’if’s in that lineup for me. If Fowler makes a leap. If Smith can really hit for a full season as a regular. If Helton’s got one more great year after this one. If Ellis can produce acceptably as a stop-gap. If Stewart doesn’t forget how to play baseball. I feel better about some of those than others (confidence in descending order, actually, so I feel best about Fowler, worst about Stewart). But I’d rather this team have less to dream on and more parts in the everyday lineup that they KNOW are going to produce at a high level. I want one more bat that’s a dead solid lock.

Yes, the pitching outlook is a whole lot better for 12 with Ubaldo in the picture, but I think if the Rockies went out and got a mid-rotation guy – let’s say Jason Marquis just because I really like that idea, they could run out:

Chacin
Nicasio
(Whoever they get for Ubaldo who’s already big league ready – Bailey of CIN, Holland from TEX, White from CLE, Nova from NYY)
Marquis
Hammel

Yeah, that’s a lot of youth up top, but you’d have DLR on the way midway through the season (I wouldn’t say before July) and whatever young stud arm you got in the Ubaldo trade at AA or AAA as reinforcements. That’s a rotation that only gets better in 13 and beyond – it’s probably even championship caliber by then.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Alternately, you keep Ubaldo, you’re in good shape up top of the rotation for the next 3 years. But where do you get that bat? It COULD work, sure. Wheeler could be a 30-homer guy in the bigs. Arenado could bust down the door with a monster 2012 at Tulsa. Fowler/Stewart could just be late bloomers. But I feel safer betting on a pitching staff without Ubaldo but with two seriously strong bets to fill important cogs (and a lineup bolstered by another strong bet or two) than I do betting on a lineup with a bunch of lottery tickets (and a rotation fronted by Ubaldo but still hurting for TOR candidates at the minor league level).

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Finally – as a fan, I want Ubaldo to stay because I like rooting for him and he’s a great pitcher. But if the Rockies get a Godfather offer for him I will understand why they took it and be as hopeful for our future with those players as I am hopeful with our future with Ubaldo.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

How is Wheeler a lottery ticket

You’re making it sound as though the bats we have in our system are lottery tickets and the potential incoming prospects are sure things. And it’s not just Wheeler, it’s Blackmon and even Matthes. We’ve gotten the least amount of production in the league at 3B. Frankly, a worst-case scenario of Stewart returning or Nelson getting the starter’s job is going to be an improvement. Also, Ellis has shown to be more than just a run-of-the-mill stop-gap, he’s actually proven himself as a consistent, above average 2b most of his career. We’ve only played 25 games with a decent 2B.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think the current solutions are lottery tickets, not necessarily the prospects. But I’m not as high on our prospects as most – I was very underwhelmed by Blackmon and Nelson once the league adjusted to them, as I felt they showed the same impetuous approach that hurts our lineup as a whole. I like Wheeler a lot but I think his big league power ceiling is closer to 20 HR than 30. And Arenado/Rosario are a year away, maybe two, from having the polish.

Some of the prospects the Rockies could get in a theoretical Ubaldo deal – Kipnis or Chisenhall, Montero, Alonso or Mesoraco – are much closer, and if you believe scouts and prospect lists and the like, more likely to be impact bats at the major league level. There’s a reason all those guys were top 100 on everybody’s lists entering the season and the Blackmons, Nelsons, Wheelers and Arenados weren’t.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 5:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Arenado was close to being on top 100 list or on some top 100 going in

So was Blackmon. A lot of folks are putting Wheeler into their top 50 list, some in their top 40 and 30 list.

Some guys break out and luckily this year we’ve had some big breakouts. When we drafted Wheeler the talk was always “If he figures out how to hit for power he’s going to be a legit top prospect,” and Wheeler’s done that.

What is the basis for capping Wheeler’s power potential at 20hr?

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’m still a little concerned about Wheeler’s ability to hit big league lefties at this point, though I am certainly open to being proven wrong.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, sure

he may not hit lefties for awhile and might be a platoon player…. but still projectable power with a great arm and good speed.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

and there are plenty of RH FA outfielders

who could platoon.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

That .470 ball

is not just with unexpectedly low production, it is injuries, it is poor record in close games, all of which can change without a change in talent.

You can make the case that Ubaldo had a career year, but Tulowitzki missed 40 games last season and Cargo was in his first full year as a starter. I think we can expect more year similar years to last year than similar to this one.

Moreover, you’re saying the players we get in return are virtually guaranteed to produce at a high level.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

You know who has poor records in close games? Crappy teams.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

You really want to make the argument

that record in close games can be predicted year to year?

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Rockies are 15-18 in one-run games. If you’re generally expected to be around .500 in that scenario, I don’t see how you can argue that the Rockies are particularly snake-bitten, here.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 5:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's not just one-run games though

extra-inning games, games with late leads, lack of comebacks late and record in 2 run games.

It’s our record in these types of contests that has determined our overall record, it’s not that it has mirrored our overall talent level.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

i read something about this on fangraphs a while ago, i'll try to find it for you...

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 5:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

You really believe that a team's production late in games

not relative to overall production, stays constant over time? So, not only does clutch exist, but it is basically everything.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

here it is

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/predicting-shutdowns-and-saves/

the overall subject of the piece isn’t totally our discussion, but the analysis is still relevant, i think you’ll enjoy it

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 8:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

also i do believe clutch exists to an extent

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Besides Tulo,

it’s really not fair to say that production is unexpectedly low. It’s not what we had hoped, but some of those hopes were probably unfounded. Cargo is on track for expectations for this season as long as his injury isn’t more severe. Ianetta is at his expected level, and an improvement over last year. This is the same as Smith. Helton is having is best season since 2007. Herrera was playing in his expected range. Wigginton is right where his past several seasons have been. Fowler is on this same pace.

The only two players who have really fallen of are Stewart and Spilborghs. Stewart is probably the biggest hit, but I don’t think it was entirely unexpected. The FO brought in too many possible backups to say that they didn’t know that he was on shaky ground.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Addendum:

Certainly his drop off wasn’t expected to be this drastic. I think there were questions about him being an everyday guy though.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 5:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, sure

But can we not agree that in the worst-case scenario, with Nelson/Wiggy and Stewart (not Lopez and not .140 no hr Stewart) that we can at least expect to improve from last in 3B production and be somewhere near below average?

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Tulo's career low babip

should also be a part of the bad luck argument.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Certainly with Tulo,

but it’s not him that I am worried about.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

who then, Helton?

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

The concerns are:

2B, 3B, C, and to a lesser extent 1B and CF. Even with just the first three, that’s 3 out of 8 positions. That’s not good.

It’s ok to have one hole in those positions. For instance, we can keep Ianetta is 3B and 2B are compensating for him. But he can’t be the best of the three. That’s a big problem.

1B is only a concern because you don’t know if Helton is going to be able to repeat what he is doing this year. CF has also been a hole, but I’d give Fowler the benefit of the doubt.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 5:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you give Fowler the benefit of the doubt

Fowler seems to be supplying evidence that it’s safe to do, then CF is not a hole.

2B shouldn’t be considered a hole either, not sure why folks continually underrate Ellis’ career.

Iannetta is above average, and I would guess that Rosario would imrpove our back-up C.

That leaves us with just one hole — 3B.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure.

Wigginton is where he is. I think he was actually brought in as a backup plan to platoon if Helton fell apart like last year. Instead, Helton’s been great. So, they have been using him as a starter 3B. He is barely a below average starting 3B. Nelson seems not ready for prime time.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, Nelson is either ready now or never

But the point is this: just with the players we have now, do you not see an overall net increase in production? (I will grant a decline with Todd, but an improvement with Cargo, Tulo, 2b, and 3b) That’s not even considering an improvement with Fowler. or a potential improvment in RF.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

No.

I think we were expecting that this year. I think that they have proven that these expectations were unfounded.

by DumbAndNerdy on Jul 29, 2011 5:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

But it's not that Stewart hasn't met expectations

it’s that he’s basically fallen off the face of the earth, along with Lopez. It would be reasonable to suspect that either he, Nelson or Wiggy could approach his 2007-2010 production.

Both 2B and 3B will be improved next year without doing a thing (and we will likely do something or attempt to do something at 3B)

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

BTW, even with Fowler going to AAA to correct his swing mechanics

or whether it was Lansford/ Runnels who gave him the leg kick, Fowler is a 1.7 war in just 70 games

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 6:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

it's interesting that you mention free agent signings as an option, yet you forget cole hamels?

he’ll undoubtedly command a massive salary as an FA if the phillies don’t negotiate an extension, which i dont think they’ll be able to do given their huge future salary commitments and aging roster (amaro is a moron and i love it), i say we make a push for him. it wouldn’t be like hampton and neagle, since hamels has an outstanding track record, and has truly taken the ‘next step’ this year, possibly thanks to lee and halladay teaching him a cutter; signing hamels to a big deal would have big risks, as any deal with pitchers does, but he, like sabathia after 08, would probably be worth it.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 4:06 PM MDT reply actions  

Hamels is going to get something like Cliff Lee money. This whole idea’s a non-starter, much as the mere thought of him in purple pinstripes makes me happy in a borderline inappropriate way.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

i think i get that same feeling

but even though i know it would be a big overpay, especially as tulo and cargo’s contracts increase in value, i still think the chance of him coming here would be worth it. maybe not in a $/WAR sense, but in an awesomeness sense.

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 5:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’m with you. I have a HAMELS 35 Phillies jersey and I don’t even like the Phillies. I’m a huge fan of his. But it’d be a BIG freaking deal, and I don’t see the Rockies payroll with the room to swell enough to hold Tulo/Cargo/Pitcher X at premium contracts while using enough money elsewhere to remain championship competitive.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Jul 29, 2011 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

then how are we going to compete for a championship in 3-4 years

considering that, in all likelihood, we’re not going to have a Ubaldo-quality pitcher at a Ubaldo contract?

BTW, with a new tv deal I can see the payroll growing above inflation.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Jul 29, 2011 5:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ask the Rays

Be awesome at drafting, scouting, and player development, and trade away everyone who is going to get expensive (except for a couple cornerstone players) for a king’s ransom in prospects, and repeat the cycle.

by steakman on Jul 29, 2011 7:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

that took a decade for the rays, though

i dont want to wait that long

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Highly unlikely

but then again, never thought I would see Ubaldo come even remotely close to being traded. Perhaps the club would make a run at Hamels or Wilson?

by mkorpal on Jul 29, 2011 5:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

wilson is the consolation prize for hamels(assuming no extension)

hamels should be way higher priority

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

i dont care if it's tracy's fault or not, i want heads to roll

by papality on Jul 29, 2011 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tigers are rumored to be willing to trade Jacob Turner for Ubaldo

So far, this is the best prospect we have seen available (besides Montero, who wouldn’t have a place on the team anyway). Problem is, beyond Turner, there isn’t a ton of talent they can offer. Indians do have other more attractive pieces to give besides Pomeranz.

by mkorpal on Jul 29, 2011 5:55 PM MDT reply actions  

He is a big time prospect

but agreed there is not much there beside him. Would need a 3rd team to get involved. IMO the Rox need to get a prospect who can play 2B, C, or OF in the deal. I jut don’t see how flipping Ubaldo for Turner and Porcello helps us out.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 6:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Depends whether Rosario is the real deal

because you aren’t winning any division titles while trotting Ianetta out behind the dish. His inflated walk total and OBP masks a whole lot of crappy at bats which contribute to the .220 average.

by RoxandRoll on Jul 29, 2011 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Considering

Rosario is one of the top catching prospects in baseball, it would be hard to find one who is an actual improvement.

by mkorpal on Jul 29, 2011 7:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Mesocoro. and that's a maybe.

Montero obviously has the better bat, but is unlikely to be a C.

Check out my blog about undergraduate science research

by black_knight101 on Jul 29, 2011 7:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Very good article

I agree that upside to the deal seems to be much higher than what Ubaldo can offer…

Ubaldo has been extremely good for us the last few years and we definitely need to consider if he can continue in the same vein… Is there a mental fatigue associated with pitching in coors field?

On the other hand, Can we get something in return which will replace the value that he has provided so far? He has proved that it is possible to pitch well in Coors field on a consistent basis (I guess Cook is the other one and he seems to be on the way out as well)? would we ever get that pitcher again? How will our pitching fare without two of our best pitchers in recent history?

by Kumar_98 on Jul 29, 2011 8:24 PM MDT reply actions  

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Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AAA
  2. Nolan Arenado, 3B - AA
  3. Wilin Rosario, C - MLB
  4. Chad Bettis, RHP - AA DL
  5. Tyler Matzek, A (Adv)
  6. Alex White, MLB
  7. Kyle Parker, OF - A (Adv)
  8. Tim Wheeler, OF - AAA DL
  9. Josh Rutledge, SS - AA
  10. Charlie Blackmon, OF - AAA DL
  11. Rosell Herrera, SS/3B - A
  12. Trevor Story, SS/3B - A
  13. Edwar Cabrera, LHP - AA
  14. Tyler Anderson, LHP - A
  15. Rafael Ortega, OF - A (Adv)
  16. Peter Tago, RHP, unassigned
  17. Christian Friedrich, LHP - MLB
  18. Joe Gardner, RHP - AA
  19. Corey Dickerson, OF - A (Adv)
  20. Thomas Field, 2B - AAA
  21. Will Swanner, C - A
  22. Kent Matthes, OF - AA
  23. Albert Campos, RHP - released (4/19/12)
  24. Jordan Pacheco, C/UT - MLB
  25. Cristhian Adames, SS - A (Adv)
  26. Ben Paulsen, 1B - AA
  27. Josh Slaats, RHP - A (Adv)
  28. David Kandilas, CF - A
  29. Jayson Aquino, LHP - unassigned
  30. Hector Gomez, SS - DL
HM:
Edgmer Escalona, RHP - MLB
Dillon Thomas, OF - unassigned
Sam Mende, IF - A
Mike Zuanich, 1B - AA
Dan Houston, RHP - AA

updated 10/25/2011.


Managers

Rox_girl_small Rox Girl

35l7yvb_small Andrew Martin

Staff

Jeff_aberle_small Jeff Aberle

No_bunting_small Bryan Kilpatrick

Avatar2_small Andrew T. Fisher

Wittgenstein_small Greg Stanwood

Special Assistants to the GM

Rockies_lost_americana_small holly96

2rr10yf_small RhodeIslandRoxfan

Pic2_small CBake33

Image_small Rafael Rojas Cremonesi