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Thoughts from a disgruntled fan

I was 9 Years old in 1993, when the Rockies first came to town.  At the time I didn't know much about baseball, but the first time I went to a sold out mile high stadium, with 80,000+ fans screaming GO...... Rockies..... I was instantly hooked.  I would wake up in the morning, run grab the paper, and look at the box scores for the previous night, and read the latest news on the team.   As a kid I had my favorites like Dante Bichette, Vinny Castilla,  Elis Burks, Larry Walker, etc.   I would watch teams that could score score 15+ Runs on any given night, and I would listen to my dad who would tell me that once this team got some pitching, they would be really good.

 

For 14 years, this had always been the mantra for the Rockies.  We could hit the ball, and score a lot of runs, but we never really had pitchers.  This wasn't always for the lack of trying.   David Nied was just a foreshadow in to something that would haunt this team for the next decade.   He quickly flamed out, as did guys like Marvin Freeman, Jamey Wright, John Thomson, John Burke, and the list goes on.  We traded for Brett Saberhagan,  Pedro Astacio, and others, each with varying levels of success.  We signed names like Kevin Ritz, Darryl Kile, and of course Mike Hampton and Denny Neagle, and for the most part, these big signings turned out to be disasters that set the franchise back more then it leapfrogged them forward. 

 

Finally the organizational philosophy was changed.  Instead of trading for other top pitchers, or signing big name free agents, we would develop our own pitchers, and put heavy emphasis on scouting in Latin America.  While the first few seasons after this philosophy changed was implemented were difficult to bear, soon we saw the fruits of the golden tree of player development.   Jason Jennings had a few good years for us,  as did Jeff Francis, and Aaron Cook.  All three were useful pitchers, however I wouldn't call any of them a true ace, good number 2/3 starters in their prime however.  Then came a guy named Ubaldo.  The he through in the mid to upper 90's and did things with the baseball, that the law of physics shouldn't even allow.   He wasn't scared to pitch at coors field, and was even quoted as saying he wanted to spend his career as a Rockie....  imagine that, a pitcher not scared of Coors Field, but instead embracing it.  If not for the work of him, and another pitcher who crashed and burned later on,  2007 wouldn't have happened.  He followed that up with a strong 2008 and 2009 campaign, and in 2010, Colorado finally found their first ace, after 14+ years of failed prospects, trades and signings.   Even better, this ace was cost controlled until 2014, and with players like Tulo, Cargo, and even young guys like Chacin,  Nicasio, and Brothers we looked like a team that was set up to contend for quite some time, and for the first time in their existence, we were picked by some in the national media as being the team to beat in the NL West. 

For a lot of reasons, which would require another fanpost, things didn't work out in 2011.    However the strong core was still very much in tact.   We had a strong young rotation with Ubaldo heading things up, followed by Chacin, Nicasio, and De La Rosa when he returned from injury,  we had two star position players, and an old guy who found the fountain of youth.   As bad as 2011 was, there was still plenty to hope for in 2012.  Now I'm not so sure.

 

Other trades have stung, but not as bad as this one.  We all knew that Jennings and Holiday were gone after the season, so it made perfect since at the time to get something for them.  This one made no since to me, we had an excellent young core, lead by a pitcher who I would take over almost anyone to throw a game 7.  He was signed until 2014 at a huge discount, and he was on record as stating he didn't want to leave.  After 14 years of waiting this was our guy, and now he's gone.  

 

I understand the arguments for trading him.  Yes he did lose velocity, and yes he has a lot of innings on his right arm.  All of these are concerns, and if O'Dowd did trade him while his value was still at its peak, then I commend him for learning his lessons I was screaming at him to learn with the Atkins and Hawpe debacle.  But this doesn't seem like that type of move.   This has all the looks of a panic type trade, due to the failings of 2011.   O'Dowd confirmed what I and others have thought about this farm system by trading his top pitcher to "restock", and instead of looking at his current core and doing the necessary tweaks needed for 2012, he changed out an engine when he only needed new tires.       

 

The prospects we got back, do nothing to address the biggest need this team had, which is another middle of the order bat.   I'm not going to say they are bad players, as I look forward to seeing what they can become, and I understand that they have the potential to be very good pitchers.  However, Franklyn Morales, David Nied, John Thomson, and other top pitching prospects had the potential to be very good pitchers as well.  As the old saying goes,  a bird in hand is worth more then two in the bush.  We had that said bird, in our hands, ready to be caged up for his career.  Forgive me for being a bit skeptical of pitching prospects.   And forgive me for being just a little bit pissed off that after waiting 14 years to find our ace, and to be competitive year in and year out, we go and trade the best starer to ever take the mound in a Rockies uniform, when there was absolutely no reason to do so. 

 

I was a Rockies fan before Ubaldo, and I will continue to be one afterwards.  However as a fan, I feel betrayed, and I feel like we have been taken, and punched in the gut.   This one hurt, and it is going to take a while to get over that hurt.  I only have to wonder what Tulo and Cargo are thinking now that they have signed life long contracts, with the idea that this team will be competitive over the next few years.  I wonder what Todd Helton is thinking, as he sees his ticket to the playoffs, and possibly his last chance at a world series ring, get traded away to Cleveland.    Us fans are not the only ones that the Management of the Rockies have betrayed this weekend, and I would think that any player from now on will think twice before signing a long term deal with this team again.

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

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I couldn't agree with everything said in this more

"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote

by smokinRox on Aug 1, 2011 9:04 AM MDT reply actions  

I completely agree with much of this, as our stories are very similar

and I will dearly miss Ubaldo, with the sting slightly offset by the trade to Cleveland — my other baseball team.

But I’m also trying to separate my sentimental side from my pragmatic side. I guess we all cope with loss in different ways.

Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Aug 1, 2011 9:25 AM MDT reply actions  

How could I ever forget Brian Bohanon... the leftiest right handed pitcher I have ever seen

I think where we differ is how we viewed Ubaldo. I still think he has a quite a few seasons like 2010 still in him, and that this year is an outlier due to injury concerns. He might not be Halladay, Lincecum, Kershaw, etc… but I think on any given year he could challenge for the Cy Young. Obviously you and the front office disagreed with me on this assessment, and I guess only time will tell.

I am excited about the two pitchers we got back (and Gardner might be interesting… the other guy I could care less about). However, I’m a bit bullish on Pitching Prospects. So much more can go wrong with them… so many moving parts. It just made no since to move Ubaldo right now, even if he isn’t a true ace like the ones mentioned above… he could still be the best #2 in baseball, and we were paying him like a number 4.

Also what bugs me is this organization has been running around like chickens with their head cut off for a year now. Sending Stewart down after 40 AB’s, Same story with Fowler, the whole 2b situation… and now this. I fear this move was done because we panicked, and weren’t able to see the big picture. 2011 is/was a lost cause… that doesn’t mean that 2012 would have to be if the same supporting cast showed up with some minor tweaks, and Ubaldo, Chacin and a healthy DLR being our own 3 headed monster.

It's Jim Tracy's Fault.

by wolf213 on Aug 1, 2011 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

In terms of your last point – I do think the organization as a whole has been trigger happy with regards to Stewart and Fowler, just as they were with Iannetta over the years. But I think this deal was in fact a sign that the Rockies are viewing the big picture. They have CarGo and Tulo long term, but the other pieces just aren’t meshing, so who can they put around them to be a winning team? And they didn’t see Ubaldo as likely to be part of that as their ace moving forward. So they took advantage of his value in this market and leveraged him into two very projectable young pitchers that can jump in and make for a deeper, and better, rotation one through five from 2012 on into the future. Of course, time will tell if they’re right on that assessment.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 1, 2011 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

I share your sentiment, wolf...

As you no doubt know by now, I am not only down on this trade. I feel that this likely means a streak of losing seasons right in front of us since I have lost total faith in O’Dowd. This wasn’t a “Herschel Walker haul” as DOD was hyping would need to occur for us to pull the trigger on a trade. And you’re absolutely right…..He didn’t use Ubaldo to address our #1 hole, another impact bat to jack up our ability to score runs, especially away from Coors. Now, we have two holes……that, and the lack of a topflight frontline pitcher who has been good enough in the past to start an All-Star game over names like Halladay as recently as last year, and is only 27 (entering the prime of his career).

I read a LOT of rationalization about this trade here at PR. Much of it has merit. The lost fastball speed, the inconsistency, and especially the track record of past starting pitchers breaking down with injuries after leaving the team. I think it was Tom Verducci who showed that 9 out of 9 such pitchers got hurt and never matched what they did at their best in Colorado. Actually, Darryl Kile did…..before a freak health issue took his life.

However, Ubaldo by all accounts IS fully healthy, and has the physical makeup of a horse. I give him the benefit of the doubt to stay healthy as well. He just seems to have an acton and body that is capable of 130-pitch starts with no ill effects. Why the lost velocity, then? Some of it relates to his early season conditioning and the minor injuries. But a lot of it that goes unspoken is BY DESIGN. Ubaldo himself said in the spring that he was trying to improve his efficiency and command this year so that he could pitch deeper in games and get ahead of more hitters, even if it meant taking a little off his fastball. People forget that. He was trying to remake himself a little bit this year into more of a power pitcher WITH control, and that adjutment probably had some negative side effects (in terms of being somewhat more hittable and giving up more longballs at home). Maybe Ubaldo should go back to being the power pitcher we all loved in 2010, and stop trying to be more efficient. However, he WAS making progress since May 15th, dramatically improving his K/BB rate in that time and having a career low walk rate. Ignore his final start….he clearly was distracted and those stats shouldn’t be held against him. Also, he has been losing sleep due to the trade rumors and had to have his mother come out to comfort him on this road trip. So, even his Arizona start may have been affected by the rumors (and a tough hitters park).

Bottom line……YOU ARE RIGHT, wolf. Ubaldo, health permitting, could win a Cy Young award or contend for one in any given year, and I expect him to win the award in the next 3 to 5 years. Even if he doesn’t, he should return to being the true ace who broke out last season now that he’s at sea level. He’ll likely get past this off year he’s having and be better for it. No more trips to Europe instead of getting ready in January!

How could we give up on him THIS soon, and not even get a bat in return? It’s unconscionable in my view. Yes, Pomeranz and White will be under our control for 12 years combined, versus the 3 years we had Ubaldo under control. However, neither is a sure thing, Pomeranz has his yacker as his out pitcher….just like Darryl Kile did. How did that work out for us? I hope that this all works out, and that one or both of these pitchers win the Cy Young or are All-Stars for us. But “HOPE” is not a good team-building strategy. O’Dowd panicked, and let’s hope we fans don’t all pay the cost.

by GoRoxGo on Aug 1, 2011 12:16 PM MDT reply actions  

I think it was Tom Verducci who showed that 9 out of 9 such pitchers got hurt and never matched what they did at their best in Colorado. Actually, Darryl Kile did…..before a freak health issue took his life.

You misread the Verducci article. He was referring to pitchers that threw 500+ innings in a Rockies uniform, which Kile did not.

However, neither is a sure thing, Pomeranz has his yacker as his out pitcher….just like Darryl Kile did. How did that work out for us?

Darryl Kile didn’t have a humidor. Drew Pomeranz will. That’s kind of a big difference, one you just can’t sweep under the rug.

"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton

by Franchise26 on Aug 1, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

JDLR has had some success with the duece

but, it really bothers me that Pom was the centerpiece of this deal. Slider/change-up guys have always done better here, pre and post-humidor.

"They’re not wanting us to show up at the stadium and say, ’We’re going to lose today.’ That’s the way I’m looking at it. I keep showing up every day and playing hard." Ubaldo

by rururuland784 on Aug 1, 2011 5:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Reposting a past comment...

Now, in case this was lost in the shuffle, let me report here the comment I made the night of the trade. This comment reveals my age!

Now let me explain why I don’t like it…

My favorite pitcher growing up was Gaylord Perry. In 1970 with the Giants, he finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting behind Bob Gibson. The next year he fell off a bit, had a two month slump, but finished fine. That offseason, the Giants traded him….to Cleveland! They got "Sudden" Sam McDowell and infielder Frank Duffy, who was nothing. Sam was hyped as the power lefty that could get the Giants to the World Series in 1972. Instead, he was mediocre, the Giants lost 90 games and traded their icon, Willie Mays, who was my childhood idol. The team was a loser for the next several years. The 1970’s was a tough decade to be a Giants fan.
 
Perry went on to win the Cy Young award with the Indians in 1972 with 24 wins, had several great seasons after that, winning the Cy in 1979 for the Padres, while McDowell was out of the gane soon after the 1972 season.
 
I am having flashbacks tonight. That is all.

by GoRoxGo on Aug 1, 2011 12:24 PM MDT reply actions  

All your comments reveal...

…your personal decade-long vendetta against Dan O’Dowd. I distinctly remember you labeling the Matt Holliday trade with the A’s as “horrible” for the Rockies.

by DeepPurple on Aug 1, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

Wrong on both counts....

I had been a defender of O’Dowd for many years, even after the disastrous 6 year losing stretch he presided over from 2001 – 2006. Wolf can confirm that. In addition, the Holliday trade was by necessity and I would never have called it “horrible”.

Are you saying my opinions are wrong now, or is it your intent to just discredit me? If the former, make the case for both the Ubaldo trade and O’Dowd’s job performance. I’ll listen. If the latter, such an attempt just discredits yourself.

by GoRoxGo on Aug 1, 2011 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

dude

NICE FIND

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton

by papality on Aug 4, 2011 7:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

The fact that you recall a post I made in 2008...

better than I can just shows you are obsessed with what I have to write, which I take as more creepy than flattering. And it doesn’t come close to proving your premise that I have a “decade long vendetta” against DOD, which is simply untrue. Yes, I started souring on DOD at times beginning in 2008. However, I was a fan of his up to 2007 and was more disillusioned with ownership at the time.

It would have not been as good a trade had Street been dumped, an assumption I was using in that post. Was I wrong and it wasn’t a horrible trade? Sure, but I’d still rather we had gotten Cahill over Street and Smith. Lots of fans were wrong about Cargo back then, you may recall. That’s no sin.

Again, wolf can attest to the fact I liked DOD through most of the 00’s. Your dredging up my post and RIRF doing the same only show my opinion started changing in 2008 about him. Yes, I was angry at the haul we got for Holliday at the time, but the trade was necessary as I wrote earlier. Forgot about the “horrible” description, but I apparently have more things on my mind than words I used in posts a few years back, unlike you I guess. And I find the term “eat it, bro” to be rather offensive.

by GoRoxGo on Aug 7, 2011 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Where does any of this disprove...

that I liked DOD as our GM from 2000 all the way into 2008? Read my above response to DeepPurple. You went to a lot of effort to prove nothing other than the apparent fact you don’t like me very much. Fine, I don’t need your approval to express myself as a fan.

by GoRoxGo on Aug 7, 2011 5:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

You said...
I had been a defender of O’Dowd for MANY YEARS, even AFTER the disastrous 6 year losing stretch he presided over from 2001 – 2006

Here’s what we know. From 2008 through now, you have not been fond of Dan O’Dowd. This means that the only year you could have been in favor of D’Oowd after that 01-06 stretch was 07 – and it seems rather odd to me that the moment you stopped supporting DOD was right after the 07 run to the World Series.

For what it’s worth, I think you’re a solid poster overall and I enjoy reading much of your analysis. I’m just waiting to see the same, well thoughout commentary I usually see in rest of your posts, appear in the ones you make about Dan O’Dowd.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 7, 2011 11:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Again, you are wrong. Let me explain...

I did START souring on DOD in 2008 as you and DeepPurple have illustrated. Want to know the reason? I felt he and ownership rested on their laurels after the 2007 World Series and didn’t do enough to build on Rocktober. Replacing Kaz with Nix to start the season was the first yellow flag for me. A team fancying itself as a WS contender doesn’t put an unproven and unimpressive player at an up-the-middle position to start the season with no real backup plan, I thought at the time. Turns out I was right, and that was just the start of a very disappointing year. On top of that, I was souring on their drafting capabilities after passing on Longoria and Lincecum in 2006 and further underwhelming drafts in 2007/08. But what made me really start questioning DOD was the devolving relationship with Matt Holliday…..I thought they could and should have offered the extra year.

Note I said I STARTED to sour on DOD, thinking he wasn’t all that good a GM, during the 2008 season. I liked him even in 2008, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt even despite Nix and his resting on laurels after ‘07. Also, I liked some of his moves in 2009 such as the Betancourt trade, and went from not liking the Holliday trade at first (though I knew it was needed after we failed to sign him long term), to loving it due to Cargo’s second half breakout and Street’s great season.

  Despite these successes, I still harbored growing doubts about him. I think the 2010 and 2011 seasons have shown why, and this Ubaldo trade which this fanpost is about, was the last straw for me.

At least, I hope you now believe me RIRF when I dispute DeepPurple’s false accusation that I’ve had a “10-year vendetta” against O’Dowd. It isn’t true, but I think it may be true that for some strange reason DeepPurple has a vendetta against me.

by GoRoxGo on Aug 8, 2011 6:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't know if you started souring on DOD and even liked him and gave him the benefir of the doubt in 2008

July 5, 2008

No All-Stars…..You credit O’Dowd for his alledged acumen at accumulating prospect talent, but yet the fact is that not a single player that O’Dowd’s team has signed has gone on to become an All-Star. Holliday was signed by Gebhard. So was Atkins and Hawpe. Fuentes was traded here by Seattle for Cirillo (good job there by O’Dowd). But the fact remains that Dan has yet to draft or sign a future All-Star.

O’Dowd, in my book, is over-rated by some Rockies fans until that happens.

That didn’t really give him the benefit of the doubt on Tulo, Hawpe, and Ubaldo who all were on their way to future All Star games.

Your points about the 06/07 drafts and not adding enough going into 08 are very fair though and legit reasons to be upset. Missing the chance to have Longoria play next to Tulo in this infield still haunts this franchise today – and I fear may for years to come.

I think the reason you come across as someone who has it out for O’Dowd though is this. Just about every post you’ve ever made here with his name in it has been negative. It probably hasn’t been a “10-year vendetta” against O’Dowd, but you certainly have not made many (if any posts at all) highlighting the good things DOD has done since you’ve joined Purple Row.

I'm pretty disgusted right now!

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 8, 2011 7:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Really getting weird...

Do you stay up at night with insomnia, wondering when GoRoxGo started souring on O’Dowd, and search past posts for clues? I’m just not worth it, RIRF. This thread isn’t about me anyway. It’s about the Ubaldo trade.

I could search plenty of past posts to find where other fans were mistaken about one thing or another. Sure, Hawpe, Tulo, and Ubaldo later made All-Star teams after I wrote that. It doesn’t make my statement in that comment invalid as it was true at the time.

Why do fans like you or DeepPurple have this near obsession about what I said, or when I said it? Don’t you think this whole thing is getting sorta weird?

by GoRoxGo on Aug 8, 2011 7:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

He's just like that

pulls up posts from forever ago

totally creepy.

kind of impressive.

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by Andrew Martin on Aug 8, 2011 10:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

as someone who loves to grind his own axe (against tracy)

its very easy for me to see you have the same thing for o’dowd

the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox

lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton

by papality on Aug 1, 2011 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've been a Mets fan scince '62 and before there was an official expansion franchise awarded to New York and Houston.

    I felt much the same way when the Mets traded Seaver to the Reds rather than pay him. The first real ace and first legitimate Hall of Fame contender in franchise history. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. The difference was the Mets knew their ‘69-’73 window was past. They needed to reload and Matlack was emergeing. DOD painted him self in this corner and he had only two pieces to move. Ubaldo and Tulo are the only two players he could have gotten as much for. Tulo’s contract prevented him from even being in the discussion.
    I feel we are where Texas was with A-Rod. While the Rox didn’t hamstring themselves as badly as Texas did; I feel that too much of the team’s resources are tied up in one guy. Tulo is too big a fish for this pond. That’s why Ubaldo had to go. In that respect we traded the wrong guy.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Aug 1, 2011 9:58 PM MDT reply actions  

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