Friday Rockpile: More Management Pondering In a Losing Season
So yesterday, Jim Tracy started Eliezer Alfonzo for the 4th game, a day game, against the Cincinnati Reds.
Normally were the Rockies closer to the chase, I'd be all up in arms, citing Alfonzo's terrible line, the pure luck nature of his batting line thus far, and a bunch of sarcastic remarks about lineup construction and Jim Tracy's seeming random lines of reasoning when it comes to who plays when. Sometimes it's the platoon splits. Sometimes it's pitcher/batter history. Sometimes it's SPLITTING UP LEFTIES WITH YOUR AAAA BACKUP CATCHER.
So this leaves us in an awkward position with the manager, still (I envision this being a recurring theme throughout the remainder of the season). On one hand, it was a regular rest day for Helton, Tulowitzki asked for the day off, so that bound Tracy's hands a bit in regard to who to put in the critical lineup spots. On the other hand, Eliezer Alfonzo has 5 career PA in the cleanup, 4 of which came yesterday.
I don't mean to just harp on this one move and use it as my smoking gun of Jim Tracy incompetence or something. It just stands out because...well, it's Eliezer Alfonzo, and it's really funny. But, c'mon, Alfonzo batting cleanup is pure manager stupidity, right?
Yeah, it is.
There's been a lot of other manager stupidity coming from the Rockies dugout this season and last, and it has a lot of people calling for Jim Tracy's job, his head - hell, Tom Runnells was seen accepting 30 pieces of silver from Mark Kiszla.
in 1913, John McGraw's New York Giants went 101-51 and won the NL Pennant. The next year, they went 84-70, finishing 2nd in the Sr. Circuit. The following season, 69-83, finishing 8th in the NL. How many boneheaded mistakes do you think McGraw made? I mean, come on, how do you leave Fred Merkle, he of the .261/.315/.373 (100 wRC+) batting line, at 1B for 153 games while Utilityman Tillie Shafer's .287/.369/.398 (124 wRC+) line rotted on the bench? In fact, Shafer retired after the season from mental duress:
"I have satisfied every ambition in a baseball way. Now I want to forget I was ever in it. It is an episode in my life that I am trying hard to forget."
Look at that. Worst manager ever. Drove the man to quit by playing him in CF. Boneheaded move there, putting a 3B in CF, John.
Casey Stengel is another illustration there. Between 1934 and 1943, Stengel managed 3 different teams, finished above .500 once, and never finished above 5th in the standings. He then gets hired on by the Yankees after managing the PCL Oakland Oaks (and remember, at this point in time, the PCL wasn't a minor league - it was a legitimate competitor to the AL and NL), wins 5 consecutive WS (7 overall) and 10 AL Pennants.
How many boneheaded decisions do you think Stengel made between the Dodgers, Bees, and Braves? Take a look at his 1942 club - his 3rd best hitter was starter Jim Tobin. I have no doubt that Boston Braves fans were regularly calling for Stengel's head, citing that he'd lost the team, was overly "strategic", and probably should have been run out on a rail.
"I became a major league manager in several cities and was discharged. We call it discharged because there is no question I had to leave."
Einstein, Charles (1968). The Third Fireside Book of Baseball. New York: Simon and Schuster. p. 434.
(Oh, and just FYI, after his tenure with the Yankees, he moved on to the Mets, whose inaugural season went 40-120. 1 above-average player in that lineup.)
The point of all this isn't to say "Look, Jim Tracy's decisions aren't awful because HoF managers were terrible too!" Tracy's decisions range from neutral to "is he actively TRYING to lose?" Seasons like this push me farther in the direction of the "Managers are neutral at best, detrimental at worst" mindset.
It really boils down to the players though. In those miserable McGraw and Stengel seasons, the teams that were trotted out on the field just weren't very good at all. Like, awful. It's no wonder they lost a million games. But at the same time, when you looked at those squads preseason, like we looked at the Rockies preseason, expectations were set. The pragmatists probably said "I don't think the team is good enough" and expected a poor finish to the season. The optimists probably said "If they can all reach their potential, this team could go places". I'm sure the optimists were cursing McGraw and Stengel's names, while the pragmatists were a bit more "meh, I saw this coming".
The underlying thought in all of this isn't "Well Jim Tracy = Awful so Jim Tracy Fired" or what have you. It's also not "Other managers have sucked, so keep Tracy." I've never really liked Tracy, given some of his playing time decisions and how he handles certain types of players that he's clearly unfavorable towards. But how much of the actual record do we blame on Tracy, and how much on the Rockies players? I'd make the case that the onus still lies with the players. Tracy can only do so much with them. In fact, I'll even go as far as to say that a manager of a "winning" club makes little to no difference. The only managers worth a damn are the guys like Clint Hurdle, whose jobs really aren't to throw out a winning club, but rather to transition minor leaguers into major leaguers.
So to conclude, I guess ... I guess I really don't have much of a conclusion. Rag on Tracy if you want. Defend Tracy if you want. Either way, you can probably make a strong case.
Wait, wait, I think I have it:
Managers of Lousy Teams make Lousy Decisions.
I think it just comes with the territory.
Here's a few fresh and informative links:
Hot streak turned frigid - The Denver Post
The Rockies are terrible when the other team scores first. They're terrible on the road. They're outscored in the first. The Rockies have trouble scoring runs this season.
Rockies' Street still sore, hoping to avoid placement on DL - The Denver Post
Huston Street might end up on the DL. Betancourt would be the closer if Street does get DL'd. Jason Giambi will be rejoining the team today in St. Louis. Tulo is learning his human limitations (esp that of a shaky quad) and requested the day off.
Chacin's efforts not enough for Rockies in 2-1 loss at Cincinnati - The Denver Post
Chacin pitched really well, showing signs of pitching maturity that endear him to us and the team. Johnny Cueto was just that much better, and has a 1.94 ERA to show for it.
Rockies waste Chacin's gem, lose 2-1 to Reds - The Denver Post
Same as the other game recap.
Colorado Rockies at Cincinnati Reds - August 11, 2011 | MLB.com COL Recap
Chacin good, bats bad.
Chacin pitches complete game but Rockies lose 2-1 | Inside the Colorado Rockies
Yep. That seems to be the news today, folks.
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Yes the Rox aren't very good
But Tracy has run a lineup out at least 10-12 times this season that realistically offered us little chance of winning. If you win half of those games then you are within spitting distance of the Dbax and Giants.
You stagger your guys day off so you do not have a Sunday lineup. There is no reason to have 3 or 4 backups in a lineup on any given day.
by RoxandRoll on Aug 12, 2011 8:40 AM MDT reply actions 6 recs
I'm less curious as to
how many runs this team is expected to score with Alfonzo batting 4th as opposed to Alfonzo batting 8th, and more curious in what this signals to other players and how the juggling and weird lineups impact the rest of the team…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
My opinion has always been
That the managers main purpose on a ball club is to be the scape goat for the team. On the field, he is the one to be tossed out because of an argument. Off the field, he is the one to lose his job because of bad play.
by mkorpal on Aug 12, 2011 8:48 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
exactly
Say Spilly comes out to ph with 2 on and nobody out.
Spilly gets a hit, and he’s a clutch hero.
Spilly grounds into a triple play and he sucks. What was Tracy THINKING, sending Spilly out there?!
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 8:58 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
that's a trick post
you had someone grounding into a triple play that isn’t ty wigginton
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
Crap!
I knew someone would point that out!
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Wigginton is so bad with the bases loaded,
That if there’s a way to hit into a quadruple play, I’m pretty sure he’s going to find it.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 12, 2011 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Wiggington is so bad with the bases loaded
he scores 4 runs for the other team.
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to a degree
I think the managers biggest job is to put his players in the best situation for them to succeed, is the best place for Alfonzo cleanup, probably not, is it a good idea to put EY2 of Wigginton or Melvin Mora in the outfield, probably not, is it a good idea to keep put Paulino in high leverage situations late in game, probably not. That is my problem with Tracy.
That is certainly the other half of a managers job
But my opinion is that it is not as important as being the scape goat for the team.
Good managers aren’t scapegoats. I’ve never heard anyone say that Tony LaRussa or Bruce Bochy is/are a scapegoat.
We’ve just had a run of bad managers that have made a slew of boneheaded decisions.
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Aug 12, 2011 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Giants fans have had their share of hating Bruce Bochy.
A lot of Cards fans have grown weary of LaRussa. There’s not a manager in the game who has unfailing support from fans.
Just 13 months ago
A lot of people wanted Bochy to get a pink slip.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 12, 2011 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Off the field, he is the one to lose his job because of bad play.
This is the $1,000,000 question isn’t it?
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 12, 2011 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions
just watch, he gets canned and wiggy stays
FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
My question is, how much is it a manager's (and his staff) responsiblity to actually coach?
Lineups, playing time, bullpen utilization…all of that is clear. What I want to know is, do major league managers (and their coaching staff) have any responsibility to actually coach, ie teach, his players how to play the game?
If they do, then I don’t think there’s any question that Tracy is a pretty poor manager who has assembled a pretty poor coaching staff, given the myriad of boneheaded mistakes this team has made in the field, on the bases, and particularly at the plate.
--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--
1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]
Some are more hands-on than others, but ultimately the manager is responsible for coaching
Some managers take a very active role in coaching players directly. Others prefer to act primarily through their coaching staffs. We’ve definitely seen Jim Tracy put his arm around a player in the dugout to offer a bit of “sage” advice like “don’t get yourself thrown out at 3rd” but other than that I have no idea which camp he falls into.
Some managers (including Jim Tracy, from what I’ve read) almost never set foot in the clubhouse, considering it the players’ domain. Others spend a lot of time around the players. But the bottom line is that the coaching staff is the manager’s coaching staff and he’s ultimately responsible for getting the players he has to play the best baseball they’re capable of playing once they arrive.
Another part of it though is that players spend a whole lot of time with a lot of other coaches coming up through the system, who are not under the direct supervision of the big league coach but still need to be on the same page strategy-wise for player development to work. It seems to me like this may be part of the problem. Players get to the big leagues with a lot of skills but not a lot of understanding of situation and how to make the quick adjustments they need to make.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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well, that's exactly right
So in this talk of “Is Tracy an idiot because he hit such-and-such cleanup”, the real issue of whether he and his staff are the coaches for this team, not managers, is being lost.
--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--
1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]
Well, managers have basically three jobs
(as I mentioned the other day in the Rockpile): in-game moves, lineup construction (which includes managing off-days and bullpen pitch-counts), and being the “head coach”. It’s fair to criticize the manager on any or all of them. I think Tracy does a good job on the first, a slightly below average job on the second, and it’s hard to say exactly where the problems are with the third without more access than we fans get, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and this one doesn’t taste so good.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Forgive me if I am being obtuse
but why do we care about Stengel and McGraw? What do they have to do with our current crappy underperoforming team? Where is the Rox news and the links like normal? I need something to distract me from actually doing work while at work…
I'd rather write about McGraw and Stengel than rehash the same boring article about our current crappy underperoforming [sic] team.
plus, if you look close, I talk about the Rockies’ current manager as well.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Touche
How about that? I guess you did mention good ole JT, didn’t you?
There's just really nothing going on at the moment. August sucks.
Street might hit the DL, Giambi is coming back.
Everything else that’s new and fresh is “Chacin pitched well! Bats didn’t hit!”
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions
thanks for the links
Either I missed them earlier (if that is the case then I apologize) or you just added them. Either way, thank you. I always enjoy having all of my rox news in one place rather then going all over the place to find news.
by OutHereInPA on Aug 12, 2011 9:51 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I added them
Typically if I don’t do links, I either
a. Really had to get something off of my chest and it ran really long
b. There’s no news whatsoever
c. Some combination of that and running late for work/falling asleep at the keyboard
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I 've been thinking about this a lot lately ( I know..scary, huh?)
While I agree with both sides on this issue, I can’t say that Tracy isn’t to blame more.
To me, it’s like when a mediocre class of students is taught by a mediocre (or less) teacher…the result is …….mediocre.? BUT, when these same students suddenly get a great teacher, one that knows how to motivate, cajole etc. and suddenly the kids strive harder and want to perform above their abilities.
I thought it was interesting when Iannetta was talking about Millwood and he called him a consummate professional, that knew the game inside and out., it made him want to catch better….hmmm.
This has certainly been the silly season for the Rockies. so many bad decisions from the players coaches and management. I hope somebody can start putting some intelligence in the mix and make GOOD decisions for the club.
by butterfly on Aug 12, 2011 9:19 AM MDT reply actions 6 recs
Lots of education references flying around PR lately
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by El Paso Jeff on Aug 12, 2011 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions
READ about LEARNing
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions
I'll rec this
as usual, I want to add but I have to go do work (ironically writing about the impact good teachers can have on students more or less)
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Nice assessment
Even after the game, Alonzo has the highest BA on the team. So cleanup makes sense. Its not as if Alonzo hasn’t been playing baseball for a while. How old is he now?
The inconsistent bats are the problem. It isn’t fair that Chacin pitches a gem and then has to take a loss. Ubaldo allowed one more run in fewer innings but he is the hero because Cleveland wins. But Ubaldo is now getting run support, somethng that was lacking while he was in a Rockies uniform.
My issue with Tracy is why he kept Stewart in Denver when the guy wasn’t hacking it. How many games were thrown away because of it? But this may not have been his call. My issue with DOD is he hasn’t gione after more batting talent.
They need some more performing batters. That’s obvious. I don’t think you can hang that on Tracy.
by Real Perspective on Aug 12, 2011 9:22 AM MDT reply actions
I blame the hitting coach.
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Re: Stewart
I’m kind of torn on this. I agree with you while disagreeing with you. Stewart shouldn’t have started the season in Denver. He should’ve started it on the DL and then rehabbing. But he was in Denver, and he should’ve been starting all the time and playing his way out of the job.
I guess it is what it is at this point
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions
Stewart was screwed by the Rockies and JT thi season...
A guy can never find his rhythm if he doesn’t play. So he bounced from the Springs to Denver all season and could never catch his breath. He was expected to rip the cover off the ball. When he didn’t do so in a game or two upon arrival, JT banished him.
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by Lost Winter on Aug 12, 2011 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions
agreed
Lopez sucked, but he got the same treatment, never got a chance to get into a grove. Same thing with Iannetta last year. I also think Smith suffers from this somewhat, I don’t think he’s any worse than Hawpe and Brad was an everyday player.
Stewart's problems are a lot deeper than that.
He’s been a mess mechanicaly with his swing in the past. His biggest problem is he seams incapable of reading pitches or pitchers.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
How is one to get better at it?
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I takes a lot of work. the kind of work he could of been doing instead of twittering.
Look we all need a life; Tony Gwynn did more with video than I’ve ever seen. Both studying pitchers and himself. Does Stewart have the attention span to do it? Maybe not. May be he just can’t see the trees for the forest. Some people do not have the mental make up or the vision to recognize pitches. I’m not saying guess hitter’s can’t succeed. just that Stewart needs better educated guesses.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
don't start with the twitter thing
it was an almost-rhetorical question basically to say “if he doesn’t play, he’ll never get any better”
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
He seems to have no problem recognizing a Ubaldo fastball upside Dinger's head
--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--
1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]
by bishoPurple on Aug 12, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I see this claimed a lot. Let's examine it
From April 1 – April 18, Ian Stewart played in 12 of the team’s 16 games. He did have 1 PA in 7 of them, so he wasn’t a regular starter at that point. He posted a line of .077/.143/.077 during those 12 games and was optioned to AAA.
From May 3 to May 12, he played in all 9 of the team’s 9 games. He did have one pinch-hit appearance (1 PA) and one defensive replacement appearance (0 PA) in that time. He posted a jaw-dropping .048/.167/.095
From July 5 to July 21, he played in 12 of the team’s 13 games and had at least two PAs in every one of them. He posted a .227/.320/.341
From July 22 to August 8, he played in 14 of the team’s 17 games (1 PA in 5, 0 PA in one) and posted a .194/.265/.258
So what do we learn from this? First, he clearly did do better when he was playing regularly as his best line was during the mid-July 12/13 run when he was starting every game. But what he did at his “best” was still not what we need from our 3B to be a competitive team. Second, we learn that when he’s with the big league club, he’s playing. He’s getting regular at bats even if he’s not starting every day.
You can make an argument that in early April he couldn’t find a rhythm because it wasn’t clear who the everyday starting 3B was, and it’s a reasonable argument. But that was a long time ago and he’s had lots of steady playing time since. You can also make an argument (as many of us did at the time) that May 3 was too early to call him back. This, however, was due to an injury situation and the team was still very much in contention at the time. This would have been a great opportunity for him to step up and seal his place in the lineup for the rest of the year. He had regular playing time for 9 games straight, and squandered it completely.
I think the early April situation was a mistake. You should have a good idea of your starters by the end of spring training and stick with them, using platoons where you have to and with players capable of operating in a platoon. The May 3 situation was unfortunate, but it’s hard to blame the front office for handling it by giving Ian an opportunity. Other than that, I think the team’s been plenty patient with Ian. They were more patient with him than with Lopez, Paulino, Nelson, and Amezaga (as they should given his contract situation and ceiling). They gave him plenty of opportunities to prove himself going into arbitration and he just couldn’t or didn’t do it. Now it’s time to move on. Maybe Ian will find his groove with another team.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions
While the information you dug up is certainly informative
they’re still small sample sizes and I’m not sure an analysis at such a micro-level is accurate only because it really belies the possible struggle him (or any player for that matter) would be going through.
Especially since he dealt with injury, demotion, the threat of demotion, and the frustration of having a horrible season. Compounding issues is that whether or not he was totally ready, he had every reason to believe HE was the guy at 3rd this season, and yet he’s been anything but.
I think regarding players like Stewart and to a lesser extent Fowler, and regarding Tracy and his management style, what we see at Coors really doesn’t provide the information that we need.
For the players, it’s the activity in the clubhouse, it’s their preparation routines, it’s their interaction with management personnel, and it’s anything and everything that happens on minor league assignments.
For Tracy, it’s the things he says to players, it’s how he conducts the team behind the scenes, its what he does to motivate players, keep them interested, let their roles be defined etc. etc. The on-field moves a manager makes, while important are not the main function of the manager – they’re just the most (and only) visible function.
What we get to comment on as baseball fans is frequently just the tip of the iceberg and unfortunately, there is no good way to get any other information on a consistent basis that is accurate.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
It's just more fun to poke around baseball-reference than to do actual work
The only point I was trying to make is that when he was with the big league team he was playing. He played a total of 47 out of 55 games by my count. With a 162-game season (and being only 2/3 through it) that’s not a small sample in any school of statistics I’m familiar with. We don’t have the luxury of giving a guy much more time being unproductive in the big league lineup than Ian’s gotten.
I agree completely with your points about the clubhouse activity, what coaches say behind the scenes, and so forth. There’s clearly something not right in those areas because it’s affecting more than one player but as fans we can’t see what it is specifically (Stewart’s just the poster child due to the gap between his expectations and actual numbers). In Stewart’s case it could well be bad coaching plus an uncoachable player, which is truly a recipe for disaster. If this is the case, he really might do very well with another organization.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
no, I get the point you're making
and I think it’s a valid one. I do think though that regardless of how large his sample has been this season, there were enough confounds in the data to make it suspect beyond he just hasn’t performed well.
I still believe he could be a productive major leaguer but yea a change of scenery might be the only way that happens for him. Bummer.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Stewie
Andrew, you have a good point, that is if a guy is going to get better he needs to play regularly. But what I was saying if he can’t hack the big leagues then he needs to be getting his practice somewhwre else.
I like Stewart as an individual, but they should have had someone else at 3B until he was truly ready to play alongside the other guys.
by Real Perspective on Aug 12, 2011 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions
that's why I asked about the manager's responsibility to actually coach a player
Does a manager have that responsibility? Is it assumed that a major league player is a grown man with years and years and years of experience playing the game and doesn’t really need any more coaching? Or is it actually part of the job, that a manager and his coaching staff needs to continue to coach a player well after they’ve hit the major league level, until they prove they no longer need coaching, such as a Todd Helton for example?
You can look at this team and see the raw talent that is there in places, such as Stew…but the performance is lacking. Where is the line between a guy that has simply failed on his own, and a guy that hasn’t been effectively taught how to play the game at that level?
I think Stew is a perfect example of a guy that has failed on his own but at the same time has clearly received poor coaching and support.
--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--
1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]
My suspicion
is that its far less “teaching” and mostly adjustments, at least for the old dogs/established guys. I would hope that the coaches are actively working with guys like EY2, Nelson, Stewart (for what its worth), Brothers, etc…guys that are not established and have major flaws in their game, but I doubt that Tulo and Todd are getting heavy doses of instruction and more of the “ok, see what they’re doing to you now, working away early and up the ladder with 2 strikes, you can compensate by trying this…”
Its not Jim Tracy’s job to “teach” these guys the game. But it is his job to make sure they are improving/making adjustments to the extent possible during ST and the season. Fair to question how he’s done at this aspect.
There's also variation in players
in addition to the thread above, not all players are different. I wouldn’t expect a manager to have to do a lot of coaching with guys like Helton, Giambi, Ellis. Maybe make some observation if something gets off about their mechanics, but that’s about it. With guys like Stewart, Fowler, Nelson, Blackmon, etc I’d expect there’s still a lot of coaching to be done. Guys rushed up from AA are going to need a ton of it.
Say what you will, but Clint Hurdle seems to be a great guy at being this sort of manager. He doesn’t seem to be good at translating it to a bullclub that wins division titles though. I’m not sure Jim Tracy has it either. Somehow you have to have a manager and coaching staff that’s simultaneously hard-nosed enough to demand excellence from a team while retaining their respect and get a team to perform consistently, yet also soft enough to deal with the amount of young players we have and encourage their development. Not an easy task, but it has to get done.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 10:15 AM MDT up reply actions
A lot of the old school managers expected the veterans to lead by example by running the drills.
That left the coaches free to observe the players at work and then give instruction. The tedium was broken up by pepper games we aren’t allowed to see anymore. Those games did a lot to improve hand eye coordination and a good way to stech out after a practice.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
4th spot sees your best power hitter, not your best average hitter
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
Or in yesterday's case
Neither
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 12, 2011 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions
watching alot of opposition boadcasts it surprises me the
consistency of the statements about Tracy. That he is one of the most polite, informative and positive baseball gentlemen in the game.
Now I’m not sure that wins a ton of games and his questionable moves/line-ups are something to look at separately that his demeanor. But it does speak about his clubhouse presence. He is a respected elder statesman of the game. And in a game in which learning to understand failure but not accept it, I think he is as solid as any other manager dealing with the psychology of the sport.
Now I personally would love a ozzie guillen, or maybe a kirk gibson fight, fight fight guy who is entertaining in and of themselves. But when those guys are losing they are lousy managers too!
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I think it's beyond creepy.....
Tracy is the Manager, not the teams buddy or father or something else, and I highly doubt this is the time to be “touchy-feely”.. I suspect that JT is doing some coaching/explaining/advising/counseling in the picture. When I have been in similar situations with a “boss” all I could think of was, “I wish he would get his hands off me!” and did not give my full attention to what was being said. If you want someone’s full attention you need to look them right in the eyes and say your piece. Do not touch them while talking and especially don’t put your arm around their shoulder.
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~ Get well soon Juan, and come back better than ever! ~
Working on losing 17 Sundays in a row - in a manner of which we have become accustomed...
me neither
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Why? I see it
as a fatherly, encouraging thing. I don’t find inappropriate or creepy. He’s no fondling them for goodness sakes. If a player has a problem with it, I suspect they’ll say so.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Well yeah, not so much creepy.
I understand why he does it. If I was a player, it might get on my nerves is all.
This year sucks.
by prettyinpurple on Aug 12, 2011 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions
If you're Todd Helton or Tulo sure
but for the younger players, meh.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Oh I get that. I don't think Tracy is running around the locker room
putting his arms around everyone.
I think he does in obviously what he considers “teachable” moments.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Looks to me like just a "leadership style" thing
Lotta people reach out and touch in a charitable way when providing certain types of leadership.
by Real Perspective on Aug 12, 2011 5:45 PM MDT up reply actions
JIm Tracy is NOT a respected elder statesman.
He left his previous two jobs with few if any defenders in the clubhouse, front office, or seats of those clubs. Managers on their way out usually lose a lot of support, but there is typically someone to defend them. It is not hyperbole to say that he had little to no support in these towns primarily due to the way he handled his relationships.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
That may be true, but I've still never heard anyone say anything bad about him as a person.
He may make mistakes as a manager, but I haven’t seen any evidence that he’s nothing but a kind, decent person.
Probably one of the worst stories I heard
was that he demanded that Solomon Torres and Jack Wilson return after only two days off for the birth of their children in September of a losing season. The two players proceeded to complain with upper management and were given more time off.
Was this a bad baseball decision, or was Jim Tracy (who would be fired a month later) trying to pad his win total in an effort to save his job by having two of his better players on the field as much as possible?
These are the kinds of ways in which he hurts his relationships with players, executives, and the press. He doesn’t do anything malicious, but he lacks a certain understanding and empathy. This deficiency often makes him seem like an ass. Not a mean person, but an ass.
I feel that this same lack of empathy is his greatest weakness when trying to coach and/or support struggling players. And it makes him a bad fit with this team.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions
This doesn't sound particularly unreasonable to me.
What is so bad about that? Baseball isn’t exactly suited for paternity leave. I think that says more about the “we’re losers anyway, so who cares” mentality that seems to have been radiating out of Pittsburgh for decades.
Do you have kids?
Having three or four days off is not paternity leave.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I do have kids
In fact, I just had some paternity leave myself. But due to the demands of my job, I had to take the days sporadically. Sure, I could have just taken off, but it would have been pretty ruinous to my career, legal or not. And baseball is a different animal entirely, paternity leave is not a realistic option, assuming you credit the fact that all the games actually matter. If you don’t think the games matter, well, there you go. Baseball players have kids all the time, how often is more time given? I doubt very much that more than 2 days is the norm, though perhaps I’m wrong about that.
All I know
is that I sat in a NICU for a week after an emergency c-section for my first child hoping that he would live. When I had my second child, I knew I would be there until I was 100% sure that both she and my wife were happy, healthy, and home.
Any man who belittles another man for wanting to make sure that the most important thing that he does in his life is taken care of , or prevent him from doing so, is not a man very worthy of my respect.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Amen.
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Went through the same experience with my first two kids.
kid 1: emergency C-Section
kid 2 & 3: normal birth, there for support and ensuring all is well.
Get well soon Juan.
This isn't to bash Tracy.
But I think that the fathers in this case should have had their wishes respected without having to go to a higher authority. And it doesn’t speak to Tracy being a bad person. But to him probably just thinking something like, “This is baseball. No way.” This, in my mind, is a serious lack of understanding of who his players were.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Certainly extenuating circumstances matter
and if that was the case, surely Tracy was in the wrong.
But everyone handles this stuff differently. One of my friends took a month without checking email. Another was back at work the next day, putting in 12 hours. My old-school boss told me that he dropped his wife off at the hospital on the way to the office. I suspect he was exaggerating, but not too much.
There is no doubt family should come first. But as I suggested, I suspect baseball norms are that, barring significant issues, the players are expected back on the field pretty promptly. If Tracy was short-changing them, sure string him up. I seriously doubt that was the case, though I take this all back if wrong and the general practice is more lenient than I am suggesting.
Everyone does handle this differently.
That’s why the father’s wish is preeminent. Tracy did not allow these men to handle it in their way. And the fact that Tracy was overruled seems to speak to the point that the request was not unreasonable.
Obviously, I wasn’t there. I don’t know all the details. But I think this story is indicative one of Tracy’s flaws.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think that's true
one of the things about baseball is that it requires a ton of sacrifices, particularly to what would be considered typical family life. Like I said, with extenuating circumstances its a different story, but until I see otherwise, the Tracy example here does not appear unreasonable and the fact that he was overruled doesn’t say anything to me.
By the way, its worth noting that MLB initiated an official paternity leave policy this year: 24-72 hours. Seems like the purpose was to keep teams from being shorthanded for the time the players take off, and taking the heat off managers. Sounds like Terry Collins was hugely upset that Jason Bay took 2 days off under the policy. Big debate re Texas pitcher Lewis missing one start. Etc.
Given all of this, hard to suggest Tracy was wildly off-base in allowing “only” 2 days off. But to each their own I guess.
upon further review
of the actual circumstances, seems to be a closer call. The Pirates had an informal 3 day leave policy, so Tracy was shortchanging them a day. But there was also a fair amount of drama in the timeframe about non-contenders “trying to win” in games that mattered in the playoff chase, which was Tracy’s stated reason for bringing the guys back. So I think Tracy probably was wrong to demand they come back given the unwritten policy, but the external pressures were enough to suggest that he wasn’t acting like a scumbag for no reason. So in short, I think that you are right to criticize him for the move, but not to demonize him.
’we’re losers anyway, so who cares’ is all the more reason to grant them paternity leave.
We know them as baseball players, everyone else knows them as people who exist beyond highlights and static images on baseball cards.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
that was my point
tracy was probably trying to resist that notion. hard to be mad at him for that.
He certainly didn't leave LA with any fans or defenders
thought to be fair, he gave way to Grady Little who also had no fans or defenders. And while Joe Torre is not bashed much openly in LA, he doesn’t have a ton of defenders either beyond the type of stuff you’d expect for a “legend.” Such is the life of any manager that doesn’t win the WS with the hometown 9.
Anyone who sticks around forever and isn’t an insufferable a-hole is a “baseball man” or “respected statesman” or whatever, and while Tracy is not revered anywhere he’d undoubtedly show up as a coach in another dugout soon if/when his time in Colo is done.
The stories out of LA
were that he played favorites with players that led to a complete rift in the clubhouse. Part of this was his own personal battle with the new GM and ownership who had kept him on. I don’t really know as much about this though.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't recall many of the details myself
but its pretty fair to say that he was never really embraced and certainly wasn’t lamented when he left, as I’m pretty sure the micromanager tag came from LA media. But the larger point is that, as you acknowledged, few managers who don’t win it all leave on good terms. his successor, Grady Little, another “respected baseball man” was run out after starting a massive war in the clubhouse by favoring vets over younger players. And so on.
I remember when we made Tracy our full time manager,
people from Dodger and Pirates blogs came over to tell us how crappy of a manager he was. We didn’t really pay them any mind, and then we had that great season. Now I know what they were talking about.
Worshiping the holy trinity of Cargo, Tulo, and Ubaldo
SDCat and I started lighting the alarm fires in like mid september 09
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions
If only we had a big hose to put out those fires then :(
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
this is dirty.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
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Is it?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
"big hose"
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
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Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
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I thought it was obvious that with the alarm fires
reference that a big fire hose was what I was meaning.
I really wasn’t meaning it in any other way. (I know that’s surprising)
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
The fire started much earlier than that around here anyway
I think it was Rox Gir’s “fool’s gold” post sometime in August that jump-started the Catcher Wars, which of course was ground zero for the Tracy divide.
Well, I actually bitched about Tracy
pretty much from the moment he was hired.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
So did I, actually
but then we started winning a ton of games and I got over it.
I just decided to wait and see.
Give the guy a chance, but like RMN said above the September 09 callups gave him too many toys for his own good.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I have no idea.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
20-11 from roster expansion to the end of the year
whatever Tracy was doing in that timeframe, I wish he was doing it all the time.
The thing Tracy did from the time he took the reigns that I believe
steadied the team was having generally stable lineups. He’s gone away from that for a billion reasons.
I don’t hate Tracy, I just really really don’t trust him as a manager.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
*reins
because that is a very different thing
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Part of the reason he was able to have stable lineups
in Summer 09 was because guys like Barmes were killing it. If 2010 Barmes was out there, something tells me the lineups would not have been so stable. In any event, his “tinkering” showed up in Sept 2009 and the record was great that month.
Honestly, not wanting to rehash this.
I just don’t have much faith in Tracy….bottom line for me.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
No complaints with the bottom line
just the suggestion that Sept 09 is a good basis for it.
that's right!
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions
It seems to me Tracy transfers his milquetoast personality on to the team
Now…is that the fault of the manager or the players allowing it to happen?
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I keep going back to Muzia's fascinating post about gifted, underperforming people.
And I wonder how Tracy handles them (because that affects what I think about bring up Wilin Rosario next year).
He played CarGo every day in 2009. (Would CarGo be an example of a player who everyone thought was gifted, but who underperformed in Oakland?) But how about Nelson and Stewart, who are presumably very gifted – they were drafted in the first round, at least. Stewart played regularly in 2009, until he was benched in favor of Atkins against LH starters. I’m not sure how Nelson is viewed, though he had a reputation of immaturity (I think that’s what it was, at least).
Maybe the problem is earlier in the system, but I don’t see Tracy succeeding in getting the talented young guys to reach the next level (except for that first year with CarGo).
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
I have to wonder how much of the Cargo rope
was Tracy, v. DOD. After Hurdle was tossed, we were sitting at (I think) tied for the worst record in baseball, and DOD had very recently traded his “best” player for CarGo. My guess is that he told Tracy, who as an “interim” manager probably had no juice, to just play CarGo every single day. As we know, CarGo was not very good for much of that time early on, and I suspect that a contender (Rox or otherwise) would never give a prospect so much rope. But we kept winning despite CarGo, and then the rest is history.
This leads me to the one question that I feel we don’t know the answer to — and which prevents a truly fair evaluation of Tracy — how much “hand” does DOD have with respect to who plays, and who plays what position? I have to assume DOD doesn’t object to some of Tracy’s bizarre lineups, platooning and defensive alignments, because they keep happening. But are some of those directed from upstairs? I mean, if DOD wanted Stew to play every day, I’m sure he could have easily made that happen, but he obviously never did.
This is the kind of thing that, unfortunately, we’ll never know. And to me, while Tracy has been disappointing for 2 years and I won’t cry if he’s let go…its just too hard to actively demand his firing when there are so many critical aspects of the strategy and results that may not be entirely in his lap.
Another scenario that jumps to mind...
Hawpe last year. DOD cast the Hawpe dismissal as “giving him a chance to catch on with a contender” but in reality we all know it was to give Smith a full look, and I’m sure DOD realized that no veteran manager, particularly one with Tracy’s reputation, would be happy with benching a popular veteran who recently played in an all-star game. So rather than put that on Tracy, DOD let Hawpe go. I’m sure there are more examples.
Good example
I really doubt O’dowd walked into Tracy’s office one day and announced “we released Brad” and it was the first time Tracy had heard of it.
A counter-example would be the Ubaldo trade. It really weakened the rotation and I’m sure Tracy didn’t like that very much from a playing-to-win-this-year perspective but understands the long-term baseball decision (he said just about those exact words in an interview). That’s one where O’dowd rightly made an organizational decision and Tracy just has to live with it.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions
No doubt
this is the classic example of the inherent conflict between the jobs, and for my purposes, I’m not really too concerned with this kind of thing because its inevitable. Every time DOD trades a piece of the current team (or doesn’t trade for an improvement) it directly “harms” Tracy in the performance of his job, but that’s the nature of the business, and obviously Tracy can’t be blamed for having to run out Millwood instead of Ubaldo.
If they're not on the same page most of the time, you're in trouble
much like department heads in any organization. The GM has responsibilities and the manager has responsibilities and it’s not right for either to tell the other to do his job. But at the same time, they’d better be talking frequently and agree on most things most of the time or the organization isn’t going to have much success and one or both of them isn’t going to be around very long (probably the manager).
The problem is when things don’t work out. So they agree that they’re going to bring Stew up and play him a lot. They do this, he hits .087. Now what? Sending him down creates roster complications for O’dowd. Benching him creates development problems and lineup management problems. Continuing to play him creates problems winning games for Tracy. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
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by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Very good points
and I agree that there cannot be a huge disconnect. But as your post very effectively points out, while the two men have the same basic goals in a general sense (i.e., Rox win!), there are a lot of aspects of their jobs that are inherently susceptible to conflict. And that’s kinda what I’m getting at here, insofar as how often DOD plays his trump cards or whether he’s truly hands-off.
There are specific things Tracy does that irks me.
This because Tracy is a Weaver acolyte. I hate how he runs the bullpen. Some managers have been successful running the bull pen the way he does. Others haven’t, and a lot depends on the make up and conditioning of your bullpen and who a manager trusts.
Oldfoagie is my handle because i’m old school in a lot of ways. I watched Earl Weaver have a lot of success and failure doing things his way. Not everybody could play for him becauseof the way they were used. I also watched Bob Lemon, Walt Austin, Red Sheondienst, Whitey Herzog, Leo Durocher, And Yes Casey Stengal. Not everybody could play for them either. Most of these guys were fundemental task masters. All of them were better than average at handleing Egos and assigning roles.
They all had their faults. All had players that rebelled against the roles assigned. Several players Insisted Stengal forshortened their careers with his rigid platooning. Players that proved more than once they could hit left haned pitching were only allowed to face left handers when the right haned bat was injured. It seemed a waste to the players involved; by god you knew what your role was.
Billy Martin was the Opposite. Roles meant nothing to him and that drove for example Reggie Jackson crazy because his Ego was involved with his role. He did thing his way or the high way. He got fired so often by Stienbrenner because George had the exact same management style. His way or the High way.
Torre’s genius was handleing George’s ego and his “star studdedcast”. Then again George was starting to mellow and Torre did not handle the son’s as well . But like football coaches do overtime Tracy is wearing out his welcome with me. I’m sure he’s a good guy; I’m still tired and uninspired by his act
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I'm an Weaver acolyte, and Jim Tracy is no Earl Weaver
For starters, he has a completely different personality. Also, the 2011 Rockies are not the same team as the late ‘70s / early ’80s Orioles. We may have someone close to a young Cal Ripken in Tulo, but we do not have the lineup that O’s team had. There is no Eddie Murray on this team, just for starters. Jim Tracy plays matchups, but he also uses the hit and run and the stolen base and wastes a lot of outs and baserunners doing it (Earl Weaver believed that outs and baserunners were the most precious commodities an offense has and wouldn’t give up either unless there was a very high chance doing so would score the game-winning run). The Earl Weaver approach (pitching, defense, and the three-run home run, with a fiery manager who demands excellence from experienced players and isn’t afraid to upset anyone who he feels isn’t doing his job) can work and it can work well. But we don’t have the team for it here at the moment. The problem is it’s hard to do it half way, which is what Jim Tracy seems to be trying to do.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree with you on that that Tracy does Weaver half way. I saw Weaver teams manufacture runs when they had to too.
Weaver did not believe in sacrifices. Bunting was an an unused concept under him. The object of a properly executed hit and run isto avoid the doule play and move a runner hopefully to third. If you’ve really done it right you have runners first and third with out an out.
The problem of waiting on the three run homer is often you never get it. I want the Rox to drive in the run at hand instead of trying to drive ineverybody on one swing on a pitch that’s it is impossible to do it on. That is a wasted out too in Weaver’s book and mine.
The specific thing that drives me craziestis the run thru the hole bullpen to win it in nine everyday. I really feel we’ve lost a lot of games this year in particular by it. I believe when you have someone that is being dominate; you let them be dominate. You give them a second inning instead of reflexively pulliing them for a platoon assignment. You keep somebody fresh for the day after to win the series and just not today’s game.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Weaver wasn't against manufacturing runs in all circumstances
He’s quoted as saying “if you play for one run that’s all you’re going to get” but in his book he says that if that one run will win the game for you, you play for it. It’s early in the game when he didn’t know how many runs it was going to take that he believed the object was to get the runners on base and give his hitters a chance to drive them in with hits (including, but not limited to, home runs). Like I said earlier, he also had a lineup that had a very good chance of doing just that over the course of 9 innings.
The problem with the hit and run is that it both forces a baserunner to run on a particular pitch, even if he gets a bad jump, and forces a batter to make contact with a given pitch, even if it’s unhittable, rather than wait for a better pitch. So you put both guys at a disadvantage. Sometimes it works and sometimes it’s called for but I think it’s used too much. At any rate, you have to have a very good contact hitter to be able to execute it.
Personally, I think the Rockies could do well with a variant on this philosophy (pitching, defense, and the 5-run rally). Get baserunners (they already do this), don’t sacrifice outs or baserunners early in the game, and then string a series of hits together in some inning when the pitcher shows weakness. What they don’t have is the philosophy of “I’m happy to take my single, walk, or double and hand the bat to the next guy in the lineup”. This gets back to the coaching aspect of a manager’s job. Tracy gives a lot of lip service to this concept but for whatever reason his players don’t live it.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions
Which is a major gripe of mine; that we aren't developing good contact hitters. Stewart is the best example of that.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I share this gripe
We also aren’t developing guys who are aware of situation and adjust accordingly. Helton does this well. Herrera does this too but he lacks the raw talent that others have. Developmentally I do not believe this is a coincidence. Talented players like Stewart believe their talent alone will get them through and it does until the big league level. The coaches in the system can’t or don’t convince them otherwise early on. If you could put Herrera’s brain in Stewart’s head you’d have a heck of a ballplayer.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
On that we totally agree and PHLP would say I told you so.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I wanted to do that last year!
Have Melvin Mora and Ian Stewart switch brains. Then Stewart could have torn up NL pitching for the next 10 years, and Melvin could retire to the beach.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 12, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I just don't want to think how that would traumatize Melvin's kids
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
It would be awesome for them
they would have somebody to play video games with…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions
I wonder if some bright mathematicly trained marketeer is the reason for the sunday line ups?
’i’ve got statistical proof that only the dunderheads at purple row watch the Rockies on sunday, and that’s the day iwant you to rest your stars"
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Esmil, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
Worshiping the holy trinity of Cargo, Tulo, and Ubaldo
by squalene203 on Aug 12, 2011 11:31 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Esmil, have you ever seen a grown man naked?
by blooming rock on Aug 12, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Mr. Tracy
I think you’re the greatest, but my dad thinks that you need to show more trust in your bull pen and stop messing around with the lineups.
Get well soon Juan.
by Thnikkaman on Aug 12, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
...
And he says that lots of times, you don’t even think about winning a series. And that you don’t even try…so forget about the playoffs.
Get well soon Juan.
tell your old man to drag Jose Lopez and Ty Wigginton around the diamond for 9 innings….
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
D'OH!
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Sort of OT question: How do you get tickets held at will call?
I ordered some last night for next Friday’s game and the three choices were ticketnow (2.50 charge), Standard Mail (allow 10-14 days for delivery, no charge), and Out of the country will call (also a fee charged).
I usually just buy my tickets at the stadium, I chose standard mail because it was free, but since it’s within 10 days will they be at willcall? Will I get them at all?
How far away do you live from denver?
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
20 minutes-ish. I wusually would buy them at the windown
But I was buying for a group of 12 and the Rockies had a facebook ticket offer where you could get $5 seats, so I bought them online to take advantage of this discount.
Just not sure if my tickets will come in time.
They should get there on time.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
They say that long
for people who are ordering tickets from out of state. But I order tickets via mail and they get up to the fort in 1 to 2 days.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
"they get up to the fort in 1 to 2 days"
So even out of state buyers get them in 1-2 days? HH should be fine…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions
I hate you and your ass face.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
hate = love
You love my ass face… :=)
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm gonna go home and bite my pillow.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Really?
I like abbreviations. Makes my crappy typing less painful.
Would you prefer “Hero”? Or maybe “Hy”?
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Hy
I imagine a lot of people in the early 1900’s had this name.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Aug 12, 2011 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Hy may be
Old Hoss Radbourne’s given name.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
Like AMT, AGI, EIC and IRS
I see how you are….
Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan
You just go to the Will Call windows along 20th Street.
I always do Will Call when I buy.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 12, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions
srsly
sell 2 of those and you’ve got yourself a beer at the park
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
It's pretty simple
You go to the will-call window. You’ll definitely need your ID and supposedly you need the credit card you used to pay for the tickets, but I’ve never been asked for it. They’ll look up the tickets by your name and hand them to you.
You can also drop off tickets for other people at Will Call (this is great when someone meeting you at the game is running late and wont be there by first pitch and you like to keep a scorecard). I don’t believe there’s a charge for this either.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
by RoarFrom112 on Aug 12, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
tom verducci making very loosely veiled steroid accusations about tood helton on MLBN
really, tom, really?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
hitter who did good in the late-90s-early-2000s?
STEROIDS
I thought they established that Craig Counsell was the only clean player in the steroid era
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions
he was actually talking about todd having such a good season this year, at age 36
because you can’t be a good hitter at age 36 in the 2000s without steroids
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
hahahhahahhahaahahhahahhahahaha
outstanding.
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Verducci can suck an egg
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
He can say hello to Wayne Hagin
in hell…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Aug 12, 2011 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
seriously
Helton must be on Steroids, but Berkman is just made of honor and sunflowers?
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
"best shape of his li-"
oh, crap…
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
How very disappointing
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 12, 2011 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Tood Helton
is a known steroid user and pusher.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
This can't be right.
Any decent pusher never uses his own product.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
he disobeyed the 10 BalCo commandments.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
if by steriods you mean Cracker Barrel biscuits and gravy
Is it 2012 yet?
by DAWNMARIE01 on Aug 12, 2011 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
I'll just recommend this comment
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Verydouchey, you might say
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Teh lineup.
Fowler8, Ellis4, Gonzalez9, Tulowitzki6, Helton3, Smith7, Nelson5, Iannetta2, Cook1
This year sucks.
That's a big boys lineup right there
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I was at the game yesterday
Couldn’t we have had a big boy’s lineup then? :(
We are Fangirl. We are Legion.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."~ Winston Churchill
Would a little positive thinking hurt anyone?
Haters gonna hate. (with optional vuvuzela)
No.
Because it was a day game.
This year sucks.
by prettyinpurple on Aug 12, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Not according to the LineupSortingHat
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Stupid hat...
We are Fangirl. We are Legion.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."~ Winston Churchill
Would a little positive thinking hurt anyone?
Haters gonna hate. (with optional vuvuzela)
Looks like our A lineup
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 12, 2011 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions
OT: Matt Prater cited for DUI
Seriously, the Broncos crime blotter would make the Raiders sad
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
I just saw that.
Sad.
/shakes head.
This year sucks.
by prettyinpurple on Aug 12, 2011 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions
who cares about football?
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Only us idiots thank you very much
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
DUI's are just a slap on the wrist in preseason
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Doesn't matter about the punishment
but in this day and age, these players are so stupid. It’s like call a cab, get someone to drive you home, heck I even think players have a livery service to do this kind of thing.
It’s just so lame
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
noooooo I don't want to write about the damn Broncos today...
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Why do you think we let all you foreigners in our state?
To write the article that Colorado natives won’t write, that’s why!
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
Dumbass.
So that’s where Kyle’s bottle of JD wound up
FFFFFFFFFFF.
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 12, 2011 2:54 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Did he offer the arresting officer a drink?
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
Nope, just fled the scene of an accident. No biggie.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
So did he hit a parked car?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Sounds like Giambi is back with the team
no corresponding roster move yet
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Huston Street on the DL
--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--
1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]
hey now
surely this counts for something
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
i miss magic
when can we have magic back?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
by papality on Aug 12, 2011 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
What??
FFFFFFFFFFF.
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 12, 2011 4:20 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
there's no magic this season
nothing special.
i want that feeling again.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
So very much this.
I do miss the magic. (and periodically, I’m grateful that I was around to witness that particular magic.)
/sighs dramatically
Get your purple on.
I miss having a good team.
This year sucks.
by prettyinpurple on Aug 12, 2011 5:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Rex Brothers, come on down
FFFFFFFFFFF.
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 12, 2011 4:09 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Betancourt will continue closing in place of Street, guaranteed
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
/checks pitching matchups
Nevermind, we won’t need a closer this weekend.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
/trades for Jeff Francis
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 12, 2011 4:55 PM MDT up reply actions
we should so totally re-sign him this offseason
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
We'll sweep them
Win every game by 5+ runs
;)
RIGHT?
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 12, 2011 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Juan :-)
Jim Tracy talked to Nicasio a few minutes ago and Nicasio joked he’ll be ready to go in two weeks. That brought a big smile to Jim.
Nicasio may be at the ballpark on Monday to see his teammates.
FFFFFFFFFFF.
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 12, 2011 4:15 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
This is outstanding news!!!
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
This makes me VERY happy.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 12, 2011 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions
:) :) :)
The kid really does have liquid nitrogen in his veins.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
Joyous relief!!!

I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Aug 12, 2011 10:59 PM MDT up reply actions
If they fire Tracy, will Ozzie G. be in?
by Real Perspective on Aug 12, 2011 5:49 PM MDT reply actions
that would be so hilarious
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton

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