Wednesday Rockpile: Why I Really Don't Like the Ubaldo Jimenez Trade
I know that you must all be sick of hearing about the Ubaldo Jimenez trade every day at this point, but as I was the staff member most vocally against the trade, I have an obligation to explain why that is/was and to give you my opinion of the trade -- which is to say that I don't like it much at all.
First, let's get the visceral emotional reaction out of the way. I'm not a guy who gets very attached to individual players, but if I had to pick a favorite Rockie it would have been Ubaldo. Here was a guy that was a hard worker, a team player, a nice guy, and who possessed a freakish right arm to boot. Obviously on an emotional level this trade is upsetting to me, but I can get over that part of it.
In a similar vein, I don't like that after an offseason in which Colorado showed two excellent players a great deal of loyalty, they traded an All-Star (who had shown them some loyalty in signing his team-friendly contract) ostensibly in his prime, using up quite a bit of the goodwill they'd built up both with their own players and with potential FAs this past off-season. But I can overlook that as well.
No, my main beef about this deal is that it just doesn't make economic (or even philosophical) sense at all to me. My argument two weeks ago against trading Ubaldo Jimenez revolved around the principle that it was very unlikely that the Rockies would come out ahead economically in a trade -- even one involving the big 4 Yankees package. I certainly don't believe that they did in this trade.
In a typical deadline deal, the expectation is that the buyer will be trading away long-term projected surplus value to the seller in exchange for a short-term gain. Let's look a little into the surplus value involved in this trade. Even if Ubaldo produces at the 3 fWAR pace he's set this year for the rest of his contract, plus another fWAR in 2011 (10 fWAR in all), the Rockies were looking at about $31 million in surplus value through 2014 from Ubaldo ($50 million in value - $19 million in salary), and that's if we don't consider inflation. If we do (and the value of one fWAR goes up), that number is closer to $50 million than $30 million.
In addition, when calculating the cost of the trade in surplus value, you also need to consider the value of the player whose spot in the rotation White would be taking in 2012 (at the moment it's looking like an unholy amalgamation of Christian Friedrich, Esmil Rogers, and Greg Reynolds) -- it's easy to project that surplus value at the least as being 1 fWAR ($5 million) per year given their relative cheapness -- so an additional $15 million in surplus value.
Looking at the most optimistic prospect rankings of Drew Pomeranz (top 10 pitching prospect), Alex White (11-25 pitcher), and Joe Gardner (grade B pitcher), the expected value (see this chart) of the package is about $43 million.
You might have a higher projected value for Pomeranz/White given their proximity to the big leagues, but my point is that even in a relatively pessimistic projection of Jimenez going forward combined with a relatively optimistic projection of their value, Jimenez probably still is more valuable. As I'll explain later, I expect Jimenez to be much more valuable than 3 fWAR going forward, so this is especially bad in my eyes.
Philosophically, as Steve Slowinski of Fangraphs puts it, why would you trade your ace starter for three pitching prospects? I'll go into why this trade was such a bad idea after the fold.
On Ubaldo Jimenez and RiskAt its core, the disconnect between Dan O'Dowd (and to the numerous talent evaluators around the league who liked this trade) and I in terms of the value of this trade seems to involve a few factors. Primary among those is our respective evaluations of Jimenez.
While I tend to believe that Jimenez is closer to the 4.5-5 fWAR pitcher that he's been (on average) ever since 2008 going forward (from 2011-2014), it appeared that O'Dowd valued his own ace at a lower level. That is to say that O'Dowd saw Jimenez's velocity drop, early season struggles, and workload over the past few years and came to the conclusion that Ubaldo's value was closer to the 3 fWAR pitcher he's been this year.
There's certainly nothing wrong with siding with your club's GM and baseball people against the opinion of a passionate fan like me, but it is my firm belief that Dan O'Dowd sold an ace pitcher this past weekend and got a prospect return that probably won't match up to his production in their time with the Rockies.
Obviously there is a considerable amount of uncertainty as to whether Ubaldo could have continued on as an ace level pitcher (or even as a 3 WAR pitcher) through the life of his contract. There's the risk that his arm will blow out due to his heavy workload in Colorado's thin air, that he will continue to bleed velocity until he's a less crafty version of Jamie Moyer, and that he'll fall down the stairs carrying a load of goat meat and break his arm.
The uncertainty involved with Ubaldo is still much lower than the uncertainty that comes with two young TOR potential pitching prospects. Say it with me: There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect. I say this knowing that both Alex White and Drew Pomeranz have beaten the odds considerably already by making it to a near-MLB level, but the chances of even one of them reaching the Ubaldo 4-5 fWAR level (yes, even at this point) is much less than 50%. I mean, White has already suffered an injury that put him on the 60 day DL, while Pomeranz really has yet to even prove himself at the AA level.
For example, Pomeranz's pedigree and performance/level/age are roughly equivalent to Jeff Francis before he made his debut. Now Francis was a nice pitcher for the Rockies, but he's not a guy you'd trade for Jimenez -- and he's a guy who "worked out". I'm not necessarily saying that Pomeranz = Francis, just that it's much more likely that he gives us Francis production than Jimenez production.
Yes, both prospects have top of the rotation potential and a rotation of under 26 stud pitchers is certainly a mouth-watering possibility, but the chances that they ever reach even a 3 fWAR per year level are less than 50% each. In other words, Ubaldo Jimenez, red flags and all, is still a heck of a lot more likely to be productive than this prospect package. I mean, Colorado may have just traded their ace for three pitching prospects who might become league average players one day. This mistake is made more egregious when you consider the fact that Jimenez was worth more to the Rockies than he was anywhere else given the voided 2014 option -- essentially, Colorado took that potential value and threw it away completely.
That's not even mentioning the fact that Colorado's needs lie far more on the offensive end of the spectrum than the pitching end. The 2012-2014 rotation still looks pretty good to me with Jimenez and without Pomeranz/White (the only logical leap to be made is that Friedrich will join the back end of the rotation), but what about the lineup? I feel like I have a good enough read on O'Dowd to know that he won't be spending heavily in free agency to acquire a big bat. The way I see it is that the Rockies weakened their starting pitching in the short term (and possibly the long term if nobody pans out) while leaving the holes in the lineup intact.
On the Rockies' Current Talent Level
The arguments that I've heard from O'Dowd and many others were about the fact that the Rockies just weren't good enough to win as they were currently constructed, so they needed to infuse the team and farm with impact-level depth. I disagree with this assertion, given the level of competitiveness (in the playoff hunt late into September) put forth by basically this roster last year, a year in which several things went right (great years from our big 3, Chacin breakout) but many more things went wrong (nearly every other player underperformed expectations, poor health). Unfortunately, Colorado has experienced worse health this year (especially with pitching) as well as a very strange run distribution, leading to something of a lost season.
I feel like this team (with Jimenez) has a true talent level of a 85-88 win team when relatively healthy, and at that point a couple of bounces here or there will get you in the postseason. For some people, winning between 80 and 92 games wasn't satisfactory (I can certainly understand this point of view), so this trade is an attempt to get the true talent level of this team closer to 90 wins. To do so, the Rockies are taking on a tremendous amount of risk that they lower the team's short-term talent level below the competitiveness threshold (for me, 85 wins).
It's not like I think the 2012 Rockies' chances are doomed without Ubaldo, it's that I feel they won't be as good or as likely to make a playoff run. As far as pitching prospects go, O'Dowd picked some good ones (as I stated in my radio interview yesterday), but I don't feel that the risk was worth it.
Conclusion
I am deeply disappointed with the entire line of reasoning that went into this trade, from the apparent opinion that the Rockies weren't good enough to contend in 2012 as currently constructed to the valuation of Jimenez as a #2 or even #3 starter. Jimenez would have been a bargain even if he didn't produce at much more than a league average level over the life of his contract. As far as prospect packages go, this is a decent one (though it doesn't address the offense much at all), but it still drastically undervalues Jimenez's combination of production and contract.
I've been a supporter of Dan O'Dowd for a long time, but I just can’t get behind this deal. I feel like this move creates a huge amount of unnecessary risk for the
News
Here are reactions from Pomeranz and from White on joining the Rockies.
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JFK
Much less than 50%?
The pitchers in Baseball America’s top 20 in 2009 that were also deemed ready to debut in 2009:
David Price
Tommy Hanson
Brett Anderson
Neftali Feliz
Trevor Cahill
Two of those four are 4 win pitchers, and Anderson still has the ability to be one. Cahill seems to be settling into a decent mid-rotation guy.
2010:
Stephen Strasburg
Brian Matusz
Feliz
Madison Bumgarner
Jeremy Hellickson
Matusz seems doubtful, Strasburg still seems relatively likely to reach 4 win status despite the TJ surgery. Feliz is a closer and should have been seen as likely to remain one by BA that year. Bumgarner and Hellickson still seem likely to be 4 WAR pitchers.
2011:
Jeremy Hellickson
Aroldis Chapman
Michael Pineda
Chris Sale
The two starters on the list are both 4 win capable, and Pineda might reach that this season.
I guess that I’m saying you’re using old data that underestimates how far prospect evaluation has come, thanks in large part to DiPS and other sabermetric tools. The chances of misses are quite a bit less likely now.
by Rox Girl on Aug 3, 2011 7:03 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I can count, really. "Two of those five"
I was originally looking only at the top 10, but decided to look at the top 20 to cover White as well.
I do see your point, I really do.
But Pomeranz is only now being rated a top 20 guy while White maybe cracks the top 50. I would certainly argue that coming into the year Pomeranz wasn’t considered likely to debut in 2011. Even in those examples you put forth (premium prospects closer to top 10 than top 20), the success rate wasn’t outstanding.
In the case of Pomeranz, I wouldn’t compare him to guys like Price and Strasburg (top 2-3 overall prospects in baseball) but rather to guys like Matusz, Bumgarner, Hanson, and Anderson. White should probably be compared with some even more lightly regarded guys than that.
Even if the risk is 50-50 that one of the two players reaches 4 WAR/season ability, I’m contending that the risk simply wasn’t worth it given what the Rockies already had in Jimenez.
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I'm looking forward to what the 2012 rankings will look like.
Pomeranz will be top 20, perhaps top 10 if he finishes strong, and will be seen as a 2012 ETA starter. White will also be given a 2012 ETA tag, although I don’t know where he’ll rank. The ready now starters in the 21-80 range do have a higher rate of absolute flame-out, but there’s also about a 20% chance of a 4 WAR pitcher coming from them (Jordan Zimmerman, Dan Hudson, Jhoulys Chacin, for three examples.) I think it’s closer to 66/33 for Pomeranz (even throwing out Strasburg, Price, and the closer prospects, you get 6/8 top 20 starters the last three seasons being 4 WAR capable.) And if White’s 20%, it makes the chances one of the two reaches 4 WAR far higher than 50/50.
That’s where the risk with Jimenez comes in, and that’s where I think it becomes relatively close. He could have a 91 mph FB next season as easily as he could maintain it at 93 or bump it back up to 96. I still don’t know if I agree with you or not, you don’t make the pessimistic case for Jimenez, and you definitely aren’t being “most optimistic” about the prospects.
Agree here
and that’s been my issue with both of Jeff’s articles. He disregards the likely value of a top pitching prospect who is MLB ready and still sells us that Jimenez is a de facto ace. I still haven’t seen a single convincing argument that Ubaldo is perfectly healthy this year and that his 2011 struggles are only temporary. He’s much more hittable in 2011 and that is fact.
Ubaldo may be an ace in Colorado, but he’s really not a true #1 guy, and hasn’t been for his entire career save two months in 2010. Yet we received “ace” level return. At this point, frankly, I’m more comfortable banking on Pomeranz alone to reach 4.5 WAR the next two seasons than Ubaldo.
The other main pojnt that’s disregarded is what this trade did for our overall starting pitching talent. Guys like Friedrich, Bettis, Frazier no longer have to make the Majors for our future to be bright. As someone said last week, “the cream rises to the top”, and the rest become assets to be used in trades or as depth.
I think at worst this trade comes out even, and it’s a good deal simply because it spreads out our risk into three pitchers instead of one we already fear may be on the downslope. Overall, I think the franchise comes out way ahead long term.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Aug 3, 2011 8:28 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wouldn't let Ubaldo's April and May of 2010
Overshadow the fact that he had a brilliant second half in 2009, and a pretty damn solid second half last year (with a couple of bad starts and a boatload of lousy run support sprinkled on top).
So I think he’s been better than you are giving him credit for, and yet I still think the return on the trade is very good. Ubaldo’s 2011 has been mystifying, and makes me question if he’s given up on being a true power pitcher. And there’s really no substitute for pitching depth, as the Rockies’ run in 2009 showed. That rotation didn’t blow people away, it just gave the Rockies a great chance to win almost every series from June on.
I hate how it all came down – from the stupid decision to rush Jimenez back into the rotation with no rehab, to the sad 1st inning spectacle last Saturday night. But I do think the trade will net out in the Rockies’ favor in the long run.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 8:48 AM MDT up reply actions
He's been incredibly good
but he’s not a #1 in MLB terms outside of Colorado. I love and miss him, but his production was not irreplaceable.
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I agree with that
I just think his other solid stretches are being remembered for less than what they were, because they pale in comparison to the remarkable 15-1 stint.
His #6 ranking in NL innings pitched in 2009 and #7 in 2010 are the type of thing I worried about when he was dangled as trade bait. Because if you are scrambling to find starting pitcher innings, your season is pretty much screwed before it starts. But the return on this trade certainly addressed that concern, or at least made it a top priority.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions
How do you define a #1 pitcher then?
Since 2009 Ubaldo rates #16 in FIP, 23 in xFIP, 10th in fWAR, 16th in ERA- (fangraphs version of ERA+), 8th in Pitcher wins (lol right?), and 11th in strikeouts.
How is that not a #1?
Verlander, Sabathia, Lincecum, Kershaw, Hernandez, Wainwright, Halladay, Lee, Haren, Weaver.
Those are pretty much the top pitchers in baseball. They are the top tier.
Ubaldo, when healthy, is still a tier below those guys.
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So more in the
Zack Greinke, Jon Lester, Josh Johnson and Matt Cain tier?
Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan
Not sure, was just asking Muzia if Ubaldo was in this tier
Of course this is just Muzia’s opinion which I sure varies from others.
Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan
they're not 1As
they’re 1Bs, meaning that if you you put them against any of the people muzia mentioned, a list i would put cole hamels on as well, they’re not the ace of the staff.
well, i think greinke is a 1A now that he’s in the NL central.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
When the hell have those guys sustained success in a place like this
Ubaldo is top 5 in road FIP since 2008, his 9.0 K/9 on the road to his 7.3 at home ought to tell you he is forced to pitch differently at home than he is on the road.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
I think this is a wildly underrated storyline
its not just that he was good, whether or not “ace” by whoever’s standards, but he was good at Coors. It is a massive accomplishment that deserves far more credit than given, and a bigger hurdle to the new guys as well.
he has been a #1
the question is if he’s a #1 going forward.
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by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions
i agree that is the question going forward, I was trying to figure out why Muzia thought this
Ubaldo may be an ace in Colorado, but he’s really not a true #1 guy, and hasn’t been for his entire career save two months in 2010.
Because he's not a Verlander, Sabathia, Kershaw, Halladay type of pitcher?
I’m not sure how this point is getting across. He’s the best Colorado pitcher ever, but he’s not “guaranteed victory” like these other guys.
(Aside from April 2010)
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Thats all I wanted to find out
There are only 10 true #1s in baseball then
the list isn't written in stone
but there are a select few that you would bet money on every single time they pitch. Not sure Ubaldo ever will be in that category, aside from April 2010.
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probably around there, yeah
those guys also have way more competitive fire than ubaldo: look no further than the recent verlander/weaver game, or what sabathia in 2008, etc etc.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
purplesocks is saying that in 2009 and 2010, he was a #1
but not necessarily an “ace” like those guys. and most people would argue that there’s a distinction.
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by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions
My biggest issue here is the actually the valuation of the 5th rotation spot
If you’re figuring Ubaldo’s surplus at $31 million, I can’t argue that too much. But then to make an assumption that Friedrich/Rogers/Reynolds (the very definition of B pitchers at this point) will produce $5m in value each of the next 3 years, without utilizing the same value chart used to value White and Pomeranz, seems like an arbitrary way to evaluate the trade. That spot really should receive $8 million in value, the value of a B pitcher. Using that, $31m + $8m= $39m. That shows the Rox DID receive $4m in value in the trade, rather than losing by $3-$4m. The arbitrary valuation of the 5th rotation spot, valuing it roughly the same as either Pomeranz or White the next few years, really seems to throw the value off here.
and that doesn't even factor in White/Pomeranz/Gardner's cost controlled years
We’re getting them at the very beginning of their career, as they will both be rookies in 2012.
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Or the fact that the additional $5m in value provided this year is meaningless
The Rox are not going anywhere this year, so that 1 win really is meaningless at this point. It does, however, have value to Cleveland, which is what helped facilitate the deal. From the Rox standpoint, this really needs to be evaluated from 2012 forward, and if you look at it in that vein, the surplus received by the Rox becomes pretty significant, approaching $10m.
Your numbers don't include any potential contributions from Gardner, do they?
If we do switch him to a bullpen arm, his future projected value takes a hit. But if we are already 10mil+, it’s just gravy at this point.
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That's including Gardner at $8m for a B pitcher
Essentially, the Rox package still would be worth $43m, but the surplus value of Ubaldo from 2012-2014 would be in the range of $26m, rather $31m. When you value the 5th starter as a B pitcher (essentially, Friedrich), rather than an automatic 1 WAR, value comes out at a total of $34m the Rox lose- $26 for Ubaldo, plus $8m for the 5th starter spot. So you’re actually looking at $43m in value received, while losing $34m, for a $9m gain. That’s a pretty clear Rox win if viewed in that light.
Also, and I know this is splitting hairs...
the chart used to value prospects actually shows a top-10 pitcher to be worth almost $1 million LESS than a top-11 through top-50 pitcher. While I believe that’s largely due to a slightly smaller sample, the optimistic projection on Pomeranz (he was #14 in BA’s mid-season list) actually de-values him. Add that back in and you’re looking at almost exactly $10m in value gained by the Rox from ‘12-’14.
Im not sure why you're so high on Friedrich ..
He’s not exactly beating down the door to get into the majors after repeating AA and incurring arm problems himself last year. Besides Chacin and an inconsistent Nicasio that leaves us with an injured DLR, struggling Cook and Hammels and no other MLB ready pitchers on the horizon for next year. Without this deal next year could be pretty bleak.
by Charlie77 on Aug 3, 2011 7:55 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I really don't think Nicasio is inconsistant as much as he is in need of some decent off speed stuff
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
His secondary stuff is inconsistent ..
Which makes him rely too much on the fastball and devaluing that pitch.
by Charlie77 on Aug 3, 2011 11:04 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm getting really tired of the PR staff groupthink around here
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 3, 2011 8:00 AM MDT up reply actions
I am actively thinking exactly what all of you are thinking at all times.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2011 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Shhh.
We don’t want anyone to know that we’re really funded by the Monforts.
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How do we know one of you isnt a Monfort?
by Charlie77 on Aug 3, 2011 11:02 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Trust me.
I just mow their lawns. In fact, that’s why I’ll be out there in two weeks.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2011 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow
Forgot how good Francis was in the minors. 11K/9? Impressive.
It's crazy that Francis keeps showing up
in articles about the Rockies’ “missed” draft picks. He got to the bigs very fast, got to the top of the rotation about 15 minutes later, and was the #1 starter on a World Series team. Who knows what his upside would have been – probably not Cy Young Award high, but not Randy Wolf either.
If only scouts could diagnose torn labrums several years before the fact.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 7:22 AM MDT up reply actions
Like..
Before game 1 of the world series. Poor Jeffy Franchise
by Charlie77 on Aug 3, 2011 7:42 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
imagine if DOD had resigned him over the offseason
we could have just kept cook on the “DL” all year
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
this flabbergasts me too
Francis is in the middle of a good MLB career. He’s FARRRR from a bust.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Or even if Francis doesn't do much from here on
It’s not like he got fat and lazy in the minors and never made it. He got close to the top of the profession, and then got hurt. Not much anyone can do about that.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Didn't say he was a bust, just that he wasn't really an ace.
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I wasn't talking about your article
I was talking about the Post and other places where they have been listing the Rockies’ draft busts.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 10:51 PM MDT up reply actions
the key to this trade is how you evaluate Jimenez.
DOD was pessimistic about him being an ace or even a 2 going forward based on his interviews.
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by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 7:16 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
That's the way I saw the main issue too -- I think Jimenez closer to a top of the rotation starter going forward...
but my point is that he doesn’t have to be a TOR starter for him to provide more surplus value than this prospect package.
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DOD evaluated Jiminez as a #3, so he said
So what DOD did was trade in what most everyone else saw as a top rotation starter and got value. Stike while the iron was hot, so to speak, and while the Rox were struggling.
Remember, this is with the background that other players, such as Atkins, Hawpe, Stewart, etc. were given the team loyalty treatment and, therefore, DOD frittered away any potential trade value. DOD didn’t want to do that again.
Now, the thing the bothers me about this trade is exactly what the article says about team-friendly contract. So what if Ubaldo was a #3 starter? It wasn’t hurting the team financially. Make Chacin the #1 starter, etc. DOD may have swung from team loyalty to the player all the way to violating player loyalty to the team (in providing hometown contract discounts, etc.)
The other thing not mentioned is the effect of the DeLaRosa injury….we cannot underestimate its impact on DOD, the contract signing in the off-season of DLR, and his delayed comeback. With the cupboard bare in pitching prospects, DOD felt compelled to move for 2012 and, other than Jimenez, had no bargaining chip for a major league rotation guy.
to answer the why trade question...
DOD felt he was getting surplus value for the Rockies. So he made the trade.
Your point about JDLR is important though. We were able to fill a hole in the rotation with this trade for at least part of next year. That is underrated part of this trade…we were going to have to spend money or prospects to fill that hole, or else have Friedrich Rogers etc fill in.
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by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 7:45 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
How true are the reports that a full physical wasn't allowed on Jimenez to complete the trade
I never read anything from Renek that addressed this rumor going around on Saturday.
He was allowed a physical with the Indians
Yankees reporters claim they asked for a shoulder MRI and the Rockies wouldn’t agree to it. Could be true, more likely just soon trying to make up for the fact that the Yankees didn’t do anything at the deadline.
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by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 7:47 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
sorry replace soon with them
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by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 7:56 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks!
Would seem weird to me any team would accept a trade where a full examination couldn’t occur prior to acceptance.
Teams normally agree to the trade
but the completion of it is dependent on a successful physical.
The Yankees appear to have just asked another team’s player for a physical before agreeing to anything, which isn’t exactly standard protocol.
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I think the Yankees
were just looking for a pretext. They could not have seriously expected Colo to agree to that, and they weren’t prepared to make the deal in any case…so this is a convenient excuse to throw the media off the scent. Whatever.
Or they could have "not liked what they saw" on the MRI through pawns like
that clown in the NY Daily Post, and drove the price down
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
This is precisely
why no self-respecting GM would ever agree to it. Say what you will about DOD, but he’s not that dumb.
yeah, it's not like he traded away top prospects for cliff lee, only to sign him as an FA a year and a half later
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
This trade was awful without Kipnis
or even if we had thrown in stewart and taken Chisenhall it would have been palatable
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
DOD thinks he is Ok at 2B for now
I don’t mean that 2B is wonderful. But he has enough parts for that position, in Ellis, Nelson and Herrera. And Cleveland desperately needs a 2B and has talking about Kipnis call up all year….so a trade of Kipnis cost more to Cleveland emotionally, than better players at pitching spot.
DOD’s main problem now is clearly 3B with significant offensive production. It is a league problem, actually, with little talent at that position. Yes, there are smaller issues elsewhere, but that is the main goal….not 2B
Oh man...Herrera
Hurdle played Quintanilla way too often and now Tracy plays Herrera way too often. I think we’re the only team in the league that has a platoon situation at 2nd and 3rd base.
People look too much into these statistics sometimes
I mean, surplus value?
I don’t think its something you should use to predict what these guys might have for us. I mean White could become the next Tim Hudson and Pom the next Kershaw. Or they could become the next Brien Taylor and Mark Mangum.
Personally, Ubaldo is too inconsistent for my liking, and his command is worrisome. I would have liked to get a hitter in the deal, but thats behind us.
Look forward to Pom and White and Gardner to see what they can bring us to win a championship.
What's stopping DOD from flipping one of these guys for a bat?
Or one of the other young arms if they get back on track? Or when DLR is healthy?
What's stopping him?
Himself, I’d argue. Prior to this deal, DOD’s track record for a long time has been to avoid anything but defensive trades. Unless you count nickel-and-dime C prospect for a reliever type deals, he has not gone out and made a truly significant offensive trade (until this one) for years. I can’t even remember one that is close, perhaps I’m wrong. I suspect this deal was not a sign of things to come, however. Particularly what he’s been saying about stockpiling talent.
didn't you hear?
DOD used all his trade points on this one, he can’t make any more until the points come back.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
You know what I admire, and what I don't?
I admire DOD taking an objective look at this team….and then doing something about it. Whether we agree that it was the right decision or not to trade Ubaldo, it was clearly a “hard look” at players and overall team goals.
What I am concerned about is Jim Tracy’s reaction. The manager of the team was all broken up about the trade. Look, I like Ubaldo too and never even met the guy, let alone see him daily like Tracy. But my concern is that Tracy’s emotional attachments are interfering with player evaluation and day to day decisions. Yes, we all like a boss who is loyal to his “employees” but Tracy broke down in interviews. Geez. Kick the file cabinent when the cameras are not rolling, or something. But if the emotions run that deep to players, then objective talent evaluation and game managment is suffering somewhere and Tracy should know better.
With regard to this trade, I totally agree
So when does O’Dowd start taking a hard look at some other roster spots?
And I don’t have a problem with Tracy choking up in the postgame interviews. It was the only thing that kept the whole night from looking like a cold-hearted cluster—— and a stain on the organization. He didn’t bad mouth the trade or the Rockies, he just made some honest statements about how much Ubaldo has meant to him and to the Rockies – things that needed to be said regardless of how one feels about the trade.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions
The Francis-Pomeranz comparison is just lazy, based upon nothing but age and handedness. Francis was a tall, lanky dude from a Canadian university, Pomeranz is a monster from an SEC school, and that’s not even getting into the dramatic difference in stuff.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
by Franchise26 on Aug 3, 2011 8:24 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
The stuff is the big issue here
Francis succeeded in the minors with a changeup that was way ahead of other pitchers at his level, so those minor league bats got fooled often. That doesn’t always translate as well as raw filthy stuff
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 3, 2011 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Yep.
Though I am worried about Pomeranz’s stuff here in Coors. He throws a curveball, fastball, changeup. I’ll be really interested to see how Denver’s air affects the curveball.
I think White is going to be special though. I think he’s going to be better than Pomeranz.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 3, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Check out my blog about undergraduate science research
by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I know that article, I've read it several times.
Pomeranz’s fastball doens’t have great movement on it, so I’m not worried about that. He relies more on leverage, and driving the baseball on a downwards plane. So I’m not worried about that.
Rockies’ pitchers (Chacin, Hammel namely) don’t throw their curveball at Coors very much. There’s gotta be something to that.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 3, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions
actually Rockies pitchers throw curveballs just as much at home as on the road.
it’s in the article
Check out my blog about undergraduate science research
by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions
and curveballs are thrown more often in Coors than the MLB average
Check out my blog about undergraduate science research
by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Over what period?
Pre or post humidor?
Thank you for your years of service Ubaldo, you were a pleasure to watch. I hope you find your way into a purple uniform again someday.
those stats in the article are from 2010 up to August 6th when the article was researched
Check out my blog about undergraduate science research
by black_knight101 on Aug 3, 2011 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Ok. Thanks for the point of reference.
Thank you for your years of service Ubaldo, you were a pleasure to watch. I hope you find your way into a purple uniform again someday.
This year though?
I don’t think so.
Chacin definitely throws more sliders at home, and more curveballs on the road.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 3, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
The comparison was made on a combination of pedigree (both top 20 prospects), age, and minor league dominance
That’s really it
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Loyalty
The loyalty thing doesn’t make sense. That’s a fan argument, the Rockies have done more to show loyalty than just about any other team out there. That didn’t make Carl Crawford want to take his talents to Coors field last year.
All the players know its a business, and there are going to be decisions like this that are made.
The Rockies stood by Holliday when he looked at times like he was never going to make it and he turned down an extension that could have kept him with a world series team.
In the end, its fans who get uptight about loyalty (I do) and not the players, management, and definitely not the agents.
To the talent issue, throw everything out the window but wins and losses. This organization has had some talent issues. Now they are in better shape and bats are easier to get on the FA market than arms. I still think Pom’s numbers and escalation remind me of Verlander…of course until he has a chance to prove it in 2012 who knows, but he has great stuff. Nationally, most GM’s have gone on record to say that Cleveland paid too much. While some of that is GM speak, the value of young arms continues to escalate.
Brad Hawpe, Garrett Atkins, Aaron Cook....
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Vinny Castilla, Clint Barmes, Dinger
by Charlie77 on Aug 3, 2011 11:09 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Hanging at BST after the game last night and there was a conversation (by adults)
talking about how awesome Dinger is.
Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan
i just mainly hate how he stands behind home plate late in the game
I could care less about him otherwise
White's tweeted Dumb and Dumber quote appears to have roots in his actual first impression
Coming in, I saw all the farmland and was like, ‘Well, that’s pretty flat. I thought we were in the mountains.’ "
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 3, 2011 8:34 AM MDT reply actions
When I was a kid, I wanted to live in Denver and imagined that it was in the mountains.
5280 feet sounds high when that’s 13 feet higher than the top of the highest mountain in your state (Maine, in my case). Doesn’t sound so impressive now that I live at 6800 feet.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
I think the Rockies ought to move their A ball team to Meeker
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
We're currently in line for the #10 overall selection next June
Previous ten #10 picks:
Cory Spangenburg
Michael Choice
Drew Storen
Jason Castro
Madison Bumgarner
Tim Lincecum
Cameron Maybin
Thomas Diamond
Ian Stewart
Drew Meyer
47 matching players. 39 played in the majors (82%). Total of 386.1 WAR, or 9.9 per major leaguer.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
How many of those signed for near slot?
I know Spangenburg did but not sure about the others.
So can the Rockies ask the Giants who they would pick and use that as their pick?
Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan
I was thinking the same thing...
"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle
by BittenAnkles on Aug 3, 2011 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
ironically, the Giants had the biggest reach in he first round this June
Most project Joe Panik as no more than a utility guy
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Aug 3, 2011 12:46 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
White's comment
White’s scouting report on Pomeranz: “What’s not to say? He’s a good pitcher, a left-hander who throws mid-90s. He can get people out.”
That’s kind of like, yeah he’s okay, but I’m the stud in this deal. Like that attitude…hope it translates well at altitude.
In reference to 2010:
nearly every other player underperformed expectations,
But when it happens a 2nd year in a row, when do we lower expectations for what players not named Helton, Tulo, or Cargo?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 3, 2011 8:43 AM MDT reply actions
I believe “Trust the Talent on this Team” has been Aberle’s mantra for the past 18 months.
I have reason to believe that fool’s gold may look like gold, but is much less valuable.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Aug 3, 2011 8:46 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I still believe in most of the talent on this team
but what I questions, is the usage. That is why I would like to see a change at manager after the season. I’m not sure that would resolve all of our issues, but I do believe it would be a tremendous help. I believe Tracy’s management style changed completely after 2009, and he reverted to what we have heard about him. We have a roster full of “platoon” players, and that just have not had a chance to find a rhythm.
"Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny."
Jack Handy quote
Screw the off season
I want to see it now.
Thank you for your years of service Ubaldo, you were a pleasure to watch. I hope you find your way into a purple uniform again someday.
I sometimes think what we see as true talent
Is actually what we see when players are playing better than their true average. When they hit 220/275/310 for a couple of weeks we think “it’s okay, he’ll find his swing soon” but we forget that those stats are just as valid as the ones we LIKE to see.
It’s human nature. Nothing we can do about it except try and be aware of it when we’re arguing.
I think it's a fine line between talent and performance
And DOD was walking that line this year with guys like Stewart and, to a lesser extent, Fowler. Each has enough talent and high enough ceilings that he had almost no choice but to give them a chance, but each had enough red flags in their history to cause legitimate concern over whether they’d reach, or come close to reaching, their ceilings. I’m not sure it’s overstating their talent so much as hoping, sometimes irrationally, that players truly do reach their ceilings given their natural talent, rather than settle into the role of career underachiever/bust.
I totally agree about his management style .
When he started calling out players Iannetta last year and Stewart this year made me think that perhaps old habits are hard to break. …especially the tinkering of the lineups , RL matchups and platoon insanity. . just sayin’
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Aug 3, 2011 8:53 AM MDT reply actions 4 recs
Three in and these may be his funniest stuff yet...
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Joe Throwy
hahaha. Those were awesome.
--Your 2012 Colorado Rockies lineup--
1.----- 2.----- 3.Carlos Gonzalez 4.Troy Tulowitzki 5.Todd Helton 6.----- 7.----- 8.----- 9.[scene missing]
Oh it's just perfect. All of it.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
wow.
Some of those are priceless. Love the Randy Wolfe “swing” and the Victorino home run trot on a foul ball.
"My eyes! The goggles do nothing!" - Rainier Wolfcastle
by BittenAnkles on Aug 3, 2011 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
OmGod. That is incredible stuff.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 3, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I think the MLBN one is by far the funniest.
LMAO
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 3, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
O/T: eff off Yahoo
your email service is down again.
FFFFFFFFFFF.
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Aug 3, 2011 9:06 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
ahem...
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Aug 3, 2011 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions
Since this is essentially a lost season does anyone else think Brad Emaus should
be getting some playing time in the majors?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
He's not that good.
Look at the home/road splits.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Aug 3, 2011 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Of course he is "not that good" but why keep a 25 year old 2B in AAA
he has had two other seasons where he had an 800+ ops and one in the middle where while it wasn’t great he did walk almost as much as he K’d. Currently our 35YO 2B is riding an early hot streak to a .252/.287/.388 line here and a .228/.264/.322 line for the year
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
How about both since both have upside?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
that's all we need, someone else tracy could have play instead of nelson
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
Awesome Rockpile, Aberle
Your Sunday sins are forgiven.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
This has been argued to death above me
But for the record I’m happy with the deal. Two potential “almost” as good as Ubaldo for 1 Ubaldo sounds good to me. Especially since I tend to trust my eyes over stats, and having seen pretty much every Ubaldo game since last summer I can say that he has been nowhere near as effective as those stats would indicate. I’m glad to see this team has been snakebitten one too many times in retaining guys on the downward swing for past services and is starting to treat this like a buisness. Hugs and happy baseball bees are great and all… but we saw this season exactly how much of a difference that made.
And Jim “Platoon my team to death” Tracy needs to be out of Denver as quickly as Wiggy.
by CarRo2010 on Aug 3, 2011 10:20 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
The key to this statement is "starting to"
starting to treat this like a buisness
I’ll believe it’s a trend when I see O’Dowd being equally objective about some of the clubhouse favorites.
And hopefully it is, I’m just not convinced yet.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions
What makes you think Ubaldo was anything other than a clubhouse favorite?
We’ve all seen the Tracy interview where he teared up after the trade, the Rox plastered Ubaldo all over their commercials, and everyone in that organization has talked about what a good guy he is for 3 years. I absolutely believe they traded a clubhouse favorite in making this move.
True, but that wasn't his primary value to the team
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions
No, it wasn't, which is exactly why I think he was the only one moved
It doesn’t make a lot of sense at this juncture to dump a Giambi or Wigginton for zero value and further upset team chemistry. I do agree with you that they bring limited valued and I really was hoping they’d both be moved (and actually, I still hold out hope), but what’s the point if they don’t bring value in return? Those moves can wait until the off-season.
Agree here.
Dumping these guys serves no real purpose that can’t be achieved as is (such as requiring Nelson/Stew to get more abs) if there is not a legitimate return, and its hard to imagine that any return would have been possible.
This all leaves aside DOD’s public relations issue: if his 2 offseason moves to supplement a contender (Lopez and Wiggy) are both colossal failures, it looks even worse for him. Of course, if he could have dumped Wiggy underneath the Ubaldo brouhaha he might have slipped it through. But if Wiggy is dumped now, and for nothing, just more explaining to do.
Sorry I wasn't clear - it's primarily this offseason that I'm talking about
That’s when O’Dowd tends to talk himself into keeping a DH on the roster, or that he doesn’t need another starter because Aaron Cook circa 2008 is due back any day now, or that he doesn’t really need a RH hitting OF because of the magic that is Spilly.
I’m hoping for something different this time, but I wasn’t expecting a roster massacre before the trade deadline.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Apparently the Assistant GM (whos name escapes me) was grilled pretty hard on the radio yesterday
on the fan. A friend told me about it. I’ll try to find a link and post it.
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
Bill Geivett on with the Drive show on the fan yesterday
http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/thedrive/Story.aspx?ID=1473042
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Aug 3, 2011 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions
this is my first time hearing this....it sounds like it was more about pitching Ubaldo in SD
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Aug 3, 2011 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Interesting article
I agree with Aberle’s conclusions, not entirely for the same reasons stated (though I don’t disagree there). To me, I dislike the philosophy of the trade (I still have yet to see one remotely compelling (or even seriously attempted) argument of how this team really contends before 2013 at the earliest). And I don’t like the return in context: O’Dowd claimed a Walker deal was necessary, and this clearly isn’t a Walker deal.
That said, its done, and I’m not going to cry over spilt milk. I do think the incoming talent, on its own terms, is exciting and I’m looking forward to seeing these guys perform. DOD has a TON of work left to do to fix this thing, though, so in the meantime I sincerely hope he orders Tracy to play Stew and Nelson and EY2 and Smith v. LHP and otherwise treats the rest of the season as a pre-spring training situation. I know that sucks for Todd and Tulo and the rest of the guys that deserve better, but it is what it is. This season is over (it already was, really) and we simply cannot go into next year with the whole “Stew/Nelson just need to play more” type of nonsense. DOD needs to know for sure what he needs to go out and get this offseason. Fish or cut bait time for everyone.
Sure it was a "Walker" deal....
The pitching we got for Larry Walker didn’t pan out, though, even if Narveson in now in the Bigs. But we took the savings and signed Dexter Fowler, so that’s not all bad.
Oh, you meant Herschel Walker? Never mind.
There is much more risk inherent in all our eggs in one basket
Rather than two. Also, we don’t just need a #1 pitcher, we need multiple pitchers to fill out a skeleton thin staff over the next 15 months. Both these reasons make me feel better about the trade than pure numbers do.
This is how i feel about the trade..
And we’re saving a few million in the process that can be used to sign an infielder or resign Seth Smith.
by Charlie77 on Aug 3, 2011 12:45 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
toronto had roger clemens in 1997 and 1998 for two of the all-time great pitching years
but nobody else. give me new york’s wells, cone, hernandez et al or atlanta’s maddux, glavine, smoltz any day.
also think zach greinke 09, king felix last year vs the rotation of texas, even without lee, or tampa, or the angels this year, with weaver and haren essentially keeping the angels in the playoff race by themselves.
several good pitchers is FAR better for a team than
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
There is no salary surplus.
I don’t know why this point is consistently being ignored by this blog. The organization made very clear during the offseason that they intended to sign him to an extension that would have significantly upgraded his salary. Everyone who mattered, Jimenez, Jimenez’s agent, the Rockies organization, understood this. When Ubaldo failed to perform to “Ace” standards in the first half, it was very clear that the team wasn’t going to risk paying him tens of millions of dollars over 4/5 years, so they traded him to a team that hadn’t made the kind of financial promises the Rockies had.
The fabricated stories about Ubaldo being unhappy with his contract in light of the Tulo and CarGo deals would have been very much real after the 2011 season when the Rockies failed to make good on this promise. Even if there had been a winning season and a playoff berth, had Ubaldo’s first half been exactly as it was I would not have been surprised if he had been traded during winter meetings anyway.
This trade is so “confusing” because people are ignoring the real issue: money. For the record, I completely agree with the decision made. I do not want the team paying tens of millions for the facade of an Ace anymore than I wanted them paying $20 million a year.
And I agree with the earlier posts, Ubaldo was the Rockies number one pitcher, but he’s not top ten in MLB.
Oh, now be honest, NL West rivals, warriors to warriors. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends."
by jasontheuncatchable on Aug 3, 2011 11:11 AM MDT reply actions
Though Rox Girl made a very good point a few Rockpiles ago, that certainly the Ubaldo camp would have to understand that given his performance that a top of the market deal was no longer going to happen, they did not want the public pressure coming from Ubaldo and his agent after the offseason as to why a deal wasn’t done or why the offer was significantly less than it would have been a year ago.
I know Jimenez is a good guy, but seriously, did anybody really think that he would hold a press conference and state that, “hey, you know what? that new deal? yeah, nevermind.”.
Oh, now be honest, NL West rivals, warriors to warriors. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends."
by jasontheuncatchable on Aug 3, 2011 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Whoops.
<I wanted them paying $20 million a year**** to a 38 year old Matt Holliday. >
Oh, now be honest, NL West rivals, warriors to warriors. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends."
by jasontheuncatchable on Aug 3, 2011 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions
I am over it now and fully convinced that
1) The Rockies FO Staff believed that Ubaldo was breaking down somewhat or somehow
and/or
2) Did not believe that Ubaldo had the confidence to bounce back from bad things (injuries/bad outings/bad outcomes)
and that is why they traded him now
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
us
1. Eric Young (S) LF
2. Dexter Fowler (S) CF
3. Todd Helton (L) 1B
4. Troy Tulowitzki® SS
5. Seth Smith (L) RF
6. Ian Stewart (L) 3B
7. Mark Ellis® 2B
8. Eliezer Alfonzo® C
9. Jason Hammel® P
How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I really wish Chris Nelson was in there somewhere
Time for some of this Rockies: "One of the beautiful things about baseball is that every once in a while you come into a situation where you want to, and where you have to, reach down and prove something." Nolan Ryan
them
1. Jimmy Rollins (S) SS
2. Shane Victorino (S) CF
3. Chase Utley (L) 2B
4. Ryan Howard (L) 1B
5. Hunter Pence® RF
6. Raul Ibanez (L) LF
7. Carlos Ruiz® C
8. Wilson Valdez® 3B
9. Roy Halladay® P
How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I think "9"
is all that matters re today’s game.
I really hope we can hit him.
How do you get your kids to behave? Threaten not to take them to a Rockies game. They straighten up REAL QUICK.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES.
I just hope
They don’t roll over and die
"Don't give up, don't ever give up" - Jim Valvano
by nodakroxfan on Aug 3, 2011 11:56 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
This
The chances of a division title may be slim to none, but I still want to see life in this team.
Thank you for your years of service Ubaldo, you were a pleasure to watch. I hope you find your way into a purple uniform again someday.
Yes!
Look at the NL West teams that finished strong the past two years: The Padres in 2009, which carried over to 2010. And the Dbacks in 2010, which speaks for itself.
You don’t have to wait for the calendar to turn to get your act together.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Id make this green myself if I could.
Thank you for your years of service Ubaldo, you were a pleasure to watch. I hope you find your way into a purple uniform again someday.
I'd make it green...
if I thought the Rockies were thinking this way.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
I was at the game last night and...
…that’s exactly how it felt. I think this team’s last breath of competitive air was let out when Street grooved that slider on Monday night.
Oh, now be honest, NL West rivals, warriors to warriors. You do prefer it this way, don't you, as it was meant to be? No peace in our time. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends."
by jasontheuncatchable on Aug 3, 2011 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Is the game on at 1pm MT?
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Dick Monfort called me yesterday.
Is anyone else going to be on the call today? Was the call reported here on PR? I’ve been traveling the last few days.
If anyone wants it, I'll post the PIN number.
I can’t see there being any problem with that.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 3, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Just in case no one knows what I'm talking about:
There’s a conference call (LIVE FanForum) today at 6 MT with Dick Monfort and DOD for season-ticket holders.
We encourage you to participate in an interactive conference call that will include Dick Monfort and Dan O’Dowd discussing the recent Ubaldo Jimenez trade, their thoughts on the 2011 season, and the future of our Colorado Rockies team. You will have an opportunity to ask your questions regarding these topics. The FanForum will last approximately one hour.
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 3, 2011 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
He called you too????
And I thought that was a personal call to me! :)
I posted this is the game thread last night, but I didn’t have the PIN or call-in #.
I’m supposed to get the Robocall automatically. I might sit in for a while if I get home in time.
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I have the PIN and call-in,
in case I miss the call. I doubt that it’s a personal PIN, so I’ll post it if someone wants it if the PR staff thinks it’s ok. It doesn’t say anything about not distributing the PIN in the email I have,
I was about to board a plane thinking, “Who the heck is calling me?” I answered to hear, “Hi! This is Dick Monfort.”
by DumbAndNerdy on Aug 3, 2011 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah I just happened to pick up the phone
So I didn’t have a pad or pen to write down the call-in info, and there was no repeat function.
I had already blurted out, “WHY DON’T YOU SELL THE #$& TEAM, CHEAPFART!” when I realized it was just a Robocall…
by Northsider1964 on Aug 3, 2011 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I honestly love you, NS64
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Jeff Aberle.....Best PR article EVER!
Fantastic article, Jeff. Of course, you and I could be wrong, and this trade works out great for the Rockies. I certainly hope so. But as I’ve written elsewhere, “HOPE” isn’t a good team-building strategy.
Jeff, you analyzed this trade the right way, excluding emotions and intangibles. This is how Heltonfan analyzed it on this site:
http://www.thescoreboards.com/forums/threads/70793-Gotta-Know-When-to-Fold-Em/page2
Now that everyone is on record, we just live with the trade and see what happens. I’ll be tuning into Ubaldo’s debut Friday at Texas along with a bunch of other fans, I’m sure.
You keep linking "Heltonfan" and providing his analysis on another board
Who is Heltonfan? I think he’s the same one that’s on here sometimes, so why doesn’t he actually join the conversation?
(I’d love to tear apart his logic :D)
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
He's posted here a bit
He’s big on projections and mathematical models.
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2011 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I certainly hope he does good
But Saturday’s rockpile will just be “see I told you so!!”
"Don't give up, don't ever give up" - Jim Valvano
by nodakroxfan on Aug 3, 2011 12:31 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't be silly
no one ever comments in the Saturday Rockpiles
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
touche
"Don't give up, don't ever give up" - Jim Valvano
by nodakroxfan on Aug 3, 2011 12:40 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
but it's definitely not "HOPE" to think ubaldo is going to continue to produce like an ace, right?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
The Rockies are an organization that values intangible things like "character" and other silliness
So that’s going to have to play a part in valuing trades, whether or not we like it. The pure paperwork clearly doesn’t paint the entire picture.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2011 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions
My sarcasm detector is broken...
So I’ll just ask…do you really think character issues are “silliness” when building a team?
This site is hard to navigate.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
that article is for all intents and purposes you and him sitting there agreeing with yourselves
there’s hardly any objective analysis in there. the fact that he thinks kershaw and ubaldo have similar value is nothing short of ludicrous, as kershaw is 4 years younger and a better pitcher than ubaldo will ever be, he’s arguably become the best left-handed pitcher in baseball
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
lets just use our 2012 money for something good and not another wigginton
A year ago Ubaldo was argualbly the best right handed pitcher in all of baseball
that said I would love to have Kershaw on my team
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Everything in that thread is based on statistical modeling of two prospects with extremely SSS
Comparing Pomeranz to Francis is awful, and completely disregards the scouting reports of both players at similar stages. Heltonfan himself even came back later and admitted the prospects were far better than he originally thought, though he wasn’t about to let that affect his rant. And then you throw in the argument that a pitcher with a CB can’t survive at Coors because DK didn’t in the pre-humidor days. I guess the fact that Ubaldo himself prominently features a curve, as do Hammel, JDLR, and Chacin, was quickly forgotten.

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