Wednesday Rockpile: Colorado Needs Two Things -- Pitching and Depth
by Jeff Aberle on Sep 28, 2011 6:30 AM MDT
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PrintWell, this is it, comrades. The 2011 nightmare is nearly over! It will certainly be an interesting offseason, as many important decisions will/could be made, including the future of the team's management (looks like it will be staying intact). Much has been made of the numerous holes Colorado has on the roster -- and today I'm going to write about the holes I'd most like to see filled. But first, here is where the Rockies have been good (or at least, underrated).
Here's something you might not have noticed if you weren't looking closely -- the 2011 Colorado Rockies offense, who almost definitely will be the lowest scoring offense in franchise, fielded six regular position players who rated as league average or above in fWAR this year (had 2 fWAR or more). That doesn't even count Mark Ellis, who projects out to a 3 fWAR player given enough plate appearances.
In fact, Colorado had about as many plus position players as Philadelphia (of which Ryan Howard is not one), one more than Arizona and Milwaukee, and two more than Atlanta. The point is that in terms of a good starting lineup, Colorado is probably already a playoff caliber team going into 2012, provided that Ellis can be re-signed (to be honest, Ellis looks like the best free agent 2B this winter).
Sure, they need to fix the black hole that is 3rd base, but with whom? Is it worth the 3 years, $42 million + (might be a little low, even) demands of Aramis Ramirez? Because if not, the best starting option on the market might be Wilson Betemit. So...yeah, rolling the dice on Ian Stewart or Kevin Kouzmanoff might be the right play there.
Beyond 3rd base, Colorado's real offensive need is some help from the bench. Beyond the crazy old man strength of Jason Giambi, it could be argued that Colorado had nobody do much of anything off the bench (September callups notwithstanding). Getting rid of Ryan Spilborghs should be job 1 for Dan O'Dowd this offseason, while some interesting decisions will need to be made as to which of Colorado's cadre of young MLB-ready prospects will join Giambi (it's happening folks) on next year's bench.
Jordan Pacheco is the obvious choice in the Ty Wigginton role (which will hopefully be vacated this offseason), while Wilin Rosario should be the backup catcher. Basically, that leaves one outfield spot and one middle infield position (again, if Wigginton is gone) to be filled by Charlie Blackmon/Eric Young Jr./ Tim Wheeler and Jonathan Herrera/Chris Nelson/Tommy Field/Hector Gomez. Instead of the outfielders, finding a right-handed guy to platoon with Seth Smith might be prudent. If Wigginton remains, he'll likely be the 4th outfielder. Yikes.
As for pitching, the problems certainly don't lie with the bullpen. It can be argued that five Colorado relievers were solidly above average (Betancourt, Belisle, Lindstrom, Brothers, Street) while Edgmer Escalona and Matt Reynolds aren't bad low-end relief pieces. The problem is that Colorado had Jhoulys Chacin and not much else this year, injuries to Jorge De La Rosa and Juan Nicasio notwithstanding.
In fact, by rWAR Chacin was Colorado's only pitcher to produce at an above league average level. Given more time, De La Rosa and Nicasio would have joined him, but they are no sure things for 2012. The single biggest obstacle for Colorado's playoff chances in 2012 is the lack of proven MLB-quality starting pitchers.
Drew Pomeranz might be a number two starter, but it probably won't happen next year if it happens at all. Colorado still doesn't know what it has in Alex White, though his 2011 cameo has hardly been encouraging. Kevin Millwood is going to be 37 next year (if he's back at all). Jason Hammel has been thoroughly mediocre in 2011, but he was probably the second most productive pitcher Colorado had this year. Beyond those four, the depth isn't particularly encouraging. Esmil Rogers has been awful, Greg Reynolds not much better, and the other options beyond that even less inspiring.
What is becoming increasingly clear to me is that Colorado needs to go after a higher-upside down on his luck starter in the mold that Rox Girl has been writing about. Maybe two or three, given what I'm seeing right now as Colorado's SP depth going into 2012.
Scoring (4) Runs is Important End of Season Update
I'm writing this before the conclusion of Tuesday night's game, but I'm going to count it as a less than 4 runs loss. If this changes, adjust the stats accordingly.
Rockies record when scoring 4 runs or more: 57-23 (.713)
Rockies record when scoring 3 runs or fewer: 15-66 (.185)
Yep, it's still important -- but what might be the most frustrating part of the season to me is that Colorado is only 22-21 when their pitchers allow 2 or 3 runs. The Rockies should honestly be winning at least 65-70% of those games.
Other Links
John Sickels at Minor League Ball has a review of his top 50 hitting and top 50 pitching prospects from 2007. Colorado's 2011 squad featured four hitters and one pitcher on those lists. See if you can guess before you click through.
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There's something wrong with fWAR
if it rates the Rockies’ offense as “playoff caliber.” It’s not. It’s lousy, outside of Tulo, Cargo, and two part-timers (Helton and Smith).
Dex and CDI
are pretty good too. Basically, there’s 6 good players and nobody else.
I'd say they're adequate
Dex is inconsistent, Ianetta is good at taking walks, not so good on avg. or power.
Neither is really playoff caliber, or even strong enough to provide much help in carrying a team to the playoffs. They’re basically complimentary pieces to the stronger hitters, of which we have a total of 3 (Cargo + Tulo + Smith 0.5 + Helton 0.5). And Helton’s endurance and skill level for 2012 are unknown.
Dex has excellent gap power
he has nearly taken the franchise triples record in a little more than two full seasons
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
I think we have two really good hitters...
And everyone else is fair to middling, or worse. That won’t get the job done.
Two really good
4 above average. That gets you further than you think, if the rest of the team is only average. The problem is they aren’t.
Exactly
fWAR is not saying that the Rockies offense as a whole is playoff caliber, (the team total wRC+ is 94), it’s saying that certain components of it are playoff caliber (Tulo wRC+ = 139, Dex = 111, Cargo = 135, Smith = 118, Helton = 124, Chris Iannetta = 110). The problem is that the rest of the offense has been SO UTTERLY HORRENDOUS that it has more than negated the solid to outstanding performances by these six at the plate.
I see this as good news though. I think it’s easier to take out trash than it is to find star players.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions
Precisely most playoff teams are no the Red Sox or Yankees
there are plenty of AZ types that make the playoffs every year.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Even Smith is suspect...
He is not exactly a prototypical power hitting corner outfielder. His numbers look solid, but this is window dressed due to the fact that he doesn’t get exposed to lefties. If he had been allowed to play everyday, he would have probably been around .270/.335/.440…or maybe a little higher. But certainly not the hitting numbers an everyday corner outfielder should have, especially one playing half his games at Coors.
Agreed
That’s why I count him as 0.5 in totaling up quality offensive starters.
With his non-starts being filled by Spilly, Young and (gasp) Wigginton this year, the net effect is probably a negative number for one outfield position. That’s one reason the “six quality players” is off-base: one of those reflects a POSITION where the total production is next to, or worse than, nothing.
It implies that the six guys are carrying the load
the rest of the team is weak.
It’s really three guys carrying the load, with one having a bad back.
The other three guys get sporadic playing time due to managerial decisions or noticeable splits
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
The thing that worries me most about next year
is that we really shouldn’t count on Todd Helton’s back carrying that kind of load.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
by glaucophane on Sep 28, 2011 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
And you could probably say the same about 1B and C too
When Smith, Helton, and Iannetta sit, the bench production is well below average. Considering each of these 3 is going to sit out roughly 1/3 of your games, the net at all three positions is likely negative. Coupled with the huge holes at 2B and 3B, that means you’re really only getting solid production from 3 positions overall. And with Cargo missing significant time due to injury and Fowler putting in a month in the minors, things look even worse.
I think that’s why there are such varying opinions on how to fix the offense though. There are a lot of folks saying, hey, there’s talent there, we just need to find a QUALITY 4th OF, and improve the back-up plans at C and 1B to get average or better production 6 or 7 positions next year. That’s the budget approach and allows more resources to be put into improving the rotation. On the other side, there are those that want to take a more aggressive approach on offense and go for a big-name, big-money addition to man a position and not even think about a platoon scenario. There’s more impact potential here, but probably not a lot of resources left for the rotation. Really, I can see either scenario being successful, but tend to lean toward improving the depth and focusing on the rotation.
Agreed
4th OF should be the easiest to fix. If Rosario is the backup, we’d get much more off the bench than we did this year. I agree with your other comment about Arenado, so 3b might not be worth the cost. That leaves 2b as the biggest hole in need of repair (unless Ellis can actually still produce)
There’s also the hidden benefit of Pacheco on the roster — allowing all three players to be used off the bench regularly.
It expands the bench, allowing for Iannetta to instantly become our RH version of Smith off the bench.
Iannetta: .984 OPS vs LHP this season
Smith: .896 OPS vs RHP this season
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Pacheco could really be a valuable piece down the line
I like the fact he gives quality AB’s and, as you mentioned, the flexibility gained from having a guy who can do a decent job behind the plate in a pinch is a nice luxury that really opens up the bench.
love it!!
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
He doesn't have to be exposed
If he can’t hit lefties then you don’t need to play him vs them. That’s why you have a platoon partner. Smith’s numbers vs righties are almost at Cargo levels. Bring in a platoon partner (Gomes, etc) than can mash lefties, and the two combine to foram a 2nd cargo type bat in the outfield.
It shouldn't surprise anyone that we have 6 guys in that category
I expected 7 coming in to the season. It really is the depth that was missing offensively, with Spilly in decline and Wiggy getting too much playing time.
The fact that Giambi's roster spot is not even open to discussion
(and I agree with the article, it isn’t) speaks volumes about the strange manner in which this roster is assembled. I won’t even be convinced they’ll cut Spilly loose until I actually see it happen.
And in the same breath in which he authors more love letters about Giambi returning, Troy Renck writes this gem:
“If the last three weeks are any indication, Todd Helton’s ultimate retirement will be jarring defensively. Helton is returning, but in his absence this month, first base has been an adventure.”
Gosh, we don’t have a viable backup plan at 1B? How on Earth did this happen?
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 7:45 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Your spin on the offense way overrates them...
If six players were average or better for their positions, it still didn’t translate into any kind of acceptable hitting attack for a team fancying itself as a playoff contender. No playoff team could get away with this kind of offense unless it had a rotation of the Giants caliber.
In fact, this was the worst offense in Rockies history, so to gloss over that sad truth is failing to confront one of our biggest problems head-on. it’s really misleading to talk of our six average+ hitters as if none of them ought to be replaced with an upgrade. Would Seth Smith’s overall numbers look as impressive if allowed to hit against lefties? What about his substandard defense? Can Fowler hit when it matters, such as in the first half or when we are nominally in the race? Will Helton’s back allow him to put up average+ numbers in 2012? Will Ellis, if resigned at age 35, even be average? I still like Iannetta as our starter, and Cargo/Tulo are money. But to think we only require “depth” with our bench and have an internal solution at 3rd base (or Betemit) is to highly overrate a hitting attack that is neither clutch nor competent on the road. We need to upgrade at one or more of those six average+ spots to have much hope, starting with the idea of getting a right-handed power hitting outfielder, even if it costs us Fowler or Smith.
by GoRoxGo on Sep 28, 2011 7:45 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Instead of improving on the six
fill in the holes around them. Get a platoon partner for Smith. Upgrade at 2B. Find a 3B.
I agree that Todd’s health is a question mark again, but not much you can do there.
Rockies should've been moving promising minor league hitters
to 1B as experiments for the last couple of years. Instead, we get Pacheco’s on-the-job training in Sept. If he was considered a potential 1B replacement, he shouldn’t have wasted the season defensively catching in the Springs.
Helton will still be around next year
There is still time to either A) find a replacement that isnt in the organization yet or B) Give Pacheco the year in AAA to work on his 1B defense
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions
Maybe Helton will still be around next year, maybe he won't
For the whole year, I mean. He hasn’t been around in September, despite increased rest time this year. And if the 2012 Rockies have a shot at the playoffs (a debatable issue at this point), it’s likely to involve a lot of important September games like the Rays, Red Sox, Cards & Braves have been playing for several weeks.
How much will Helton be able to contribute to a Sept. stretch drive next year? I’m skeptical that he’ll have much left.
how much does Helton's missing September coincide with the fact that we arent playing for anything
I would guess that had we still been in it, Tulo, Cargo, and Helton wouldn’t have missed most of the month
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
I really don't think Helton could've played much in any event
And I expect more problems next year than this. It’s really an annual problem and has been for several years.
That's the easiest thing to do...
What you recommend is not bad, but I’d like to see more changes. We are beholden to Helton for one more year at 1st, so I think it’s vital we find a right-handed hitter with pop to be an everyday corner OF. It may mean Fowler is traded and Cargo switched to CF everyday. Or it may mean making Smith an extra OF or even trading him, but we need more upgrading of our hitting to have real hope.
Agree, but the RH-hitting OF with pop
Has been discussed by the front office the past two offseasons, but has taken a backseat to keeping the clubhouse favorites. I won’t be shocked to see that happen again.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions
You're too worried about someone being "everyday"
A RH batting corner outfielder probably won’t be as good vs righties as Seth Smith is. So why not let RH bat hit vs lefties, and keep Seth for the righties?
Because if that RH bat is really worth acquiring
He’s probably playing every day, not just against lefties. If a guy’s only playing 20-30 percent of the time for another team, he’s probably not that much of an upgrade over Spilly.
not that much of an upgrade over Spilly.
(my God, did I really just type that.???)
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions
His playing time with another team
doesn’t mean he’s not an upgrade over Spilly. It may mea that he’s probably being used for situations that are suited for his skill set. If that skill set is hits lefties, but not righties, then that’s the skill set we are looking for.
Basically, we need an upgrade over Spilly.
I get that
But why confine your search to someone who’s a better option against lefties than Spilly, but not just a better everyday option than Smith? If you do that, you’re looking to a very limited pool of players for help.
I don’t hate Smith, nor do I think he’s the weakest link on the team. But if the Rockies brought in an OF productive enough to relegate Smith back into his old PH role, I wouldn’t complain at all.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions
You could look for that guy
but the RH batter who hits RHP as good asSeth Smith (and presumably hits LHP even better), is an all star caliber player. Not that you can’t get go out and get a guy like that but your resources are better used on other players, when you could get a RH platoon guy for much less.
Let’s say you get Corey Hart. he’s got similar numbers as Seth vs RHP. He has much better numbers vs LHP. So you end up paying for his “everyday” production, but you’re only getting is improved numbers vs LHP,
Was Hart an option you deem realistic?
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Except that if I can find that guy
I’m also getting back a very proven LH pinch-hitter for my bench. It’s not as much fun as having a WWE wrestler come up in the 9th to strike out, but I would consider it a plus nevertheless.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions
That's a pretty high cost
just to add a LH pinch hitter.
I agree with a lot this, but I don't think Jeff's premise is that far off
I can’t really argue that any of the six aren’t average or better players. The problem is, three of those six are going to take significant time off throughout the year, and the drop in talent between them and the bench is huge. Couple that with the black hole at 3rd and, for much of the year, 2nd, and the offense was disappointing.
I’m not sure it’s going to take a massive overhaul to turn it around, though. I wouldn’t mind moving Smith if it meant bringing in a power bat that will log 500+ AB’s throughout the year. If the team can do that and get average performance from 2B, I think they’ll be OK. I’m pretty confident in saying that 3B will look really bad coming out of ST, but I also think we’ll see Arenado at some point next year. DOD’s in a little bit of a tough spot there again, since a big-money FA or trade candidate essentially blocks the best bat in the organization. I’ve said it before, but for this reason, I wouldn’t be shocked to see Wigginton back next year. He could log some time at 3B early in the year, then settle into a bench role when Arenado gets the call, backing up 1st and 3rd.
I'd agree with this statement.
The following are playoff-caliber starters:
Tulowitzki
Helton
Cargo
Iannetta
2nd half Fowler
Seth Smith against RHP
The remainder of our lineup was complete black holes that took away any plus position from the top three guys. (I would argue the manager stripped the fourth player and sixth player of any real value as well.)
In a division that has become pitching-rich, we were playing with essentially 3.5 playoff-caliber position players — combined with the incredibly dumb decision to give Helton and Iannetta rest on the same day for most of the season. You can’t win when you forfeit 1/3 of your games, and you certainly can’t win when you are only playing with three players in a pitching-heavy division.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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"combined with the incredibly dumb decision to give Helton and Iannetta rest on the same day for most of the season."
That’s one of my biggest problems with Tracey this year. everyone’s off day came on the same f’ing day
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 10:12 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd seriously add Ellis to that list...he really has been great in his half season here.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
I think the idea of this being the worst offense in Rockies history
because they scored fewer runs than any team in Rockies history is getting BADLY overplayed. In fact it’s downright misleading. (Not by you GoRoxGo but in general).
1) For the first decade of our existence, we played without a humidor. Of course we are going to score fewer runs now!!!
2) MLB in general has seen a tremendous dropoff in runs scored the last couple of seasons. Why would we expect the Rockies to be immune to this?
Fun Fact:
Rockies all time wRC+ = 90 (That’s the wRC+ of every team from 1993 – 2011 combined)
2011 Rockies wRC+ = 94
The offense has not been good, but it’s far from the worst Rockies offense in history.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 8:54 AM MDT up reply actions
GRG, you have good thoughts, but you never back them up with good stats.
Here is the 2011 wRC+ for our starters:
C: Ianetta, 110 (10th among all Catchers with over 300 PAs)
1B: Todd Helton, 124 (9th among all 1B with over 400 PAs)
2B: Mark Ellis, 71 (27th among all 2B with over 400 PAs)
SS: Tulo, 139 (2nd among all SS with over 400 PAs)
3B: Wigginton, 94 (20th among all SS with over 400 PAs)
OF:
Cargo, 135 (16th among ALL OF with over 400 Pas)
Smith, 117 (27th among ALL OF with over 400 Pas)
Fowler, 109 (41st among ALL OF with over 400 Pas)
To sum up:
Our C is top 10.
Our 1B is top 10.
Our 2B is poor.
Our SS is top 2.
Our 3B is below average.
Our outfielders are all in the top 50 of all outfielders. One is in the top 30. The other is in the top 20.
Outside of 2B and 3B. We’re pretty darn good.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions
Weight it by playing time, please...
and then account for probable 2012 dropoffs due to age (Helton) or regression. To that, add the incremental production we might get from internal prospects (Pacheco?).
If that’s the exercise, then one could conclude we are not “pretty darn good”.
What? Am I misunderstanding your argument?
We need to upgrade at one or more of those six average+ spots to have much hope, starting with the idea of getting a right-handed power hitting outfielder, even if it costs us Fowler or Smith.
Your argument is that the core offensive players are overrated. There are the core offensive players. They are not overrated. They’re good.
I don’t see what playing time or prospects has anything to do with this. Out of the six good positions, everyone but Fowler played the whole season except for injuries. But you’re not saying that injuries are why they aren’t good. You are saying that they are overrated.
As far as regression, who’s going to regress? Helton? But there’s a good chance that Tulo, Cargo, Fowler, a new 3B, and Smith plus platoon will be better.
I’m not following you because you still don’t have anything but opinions. You say that the six positions are overrated. I submit the stats that say they aren’t. Refute that.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
I will admit that this does not account for a few things:
1) Poor situational hitting, particularly on the part of Wigginton and Tulo (late in games)
2) Bad lineups. Having your worst offensive player (Ellis/Herrera) bat 2nd in the lineup, burying one of your best OBP guys in the 8-hole, etc.
3) Injuries.
But, straight talent/ability/stats, these guys are not overrated. They’re good.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Did I say "overrated" even once?
You said it about six times these last couple posts. What I’m saying is they are “average+” hitters other than Cargo/Tulo. Average+ can be upgraded, especially in the outfield. Power hitters like a Torri Hunter type (not Hunter himself) are available and not all that scarce. Either Smith or Dex would have to be made bench players or traded to make room for someone like that.
But we need to upgrade from “average+” somewhere. Just getting someone new for 3B and a righthanded complement to Smith won’t be enough, IMO. Not with our rotation having a bunch of question marks. Simply put, we need one more ++ hitter to go with Cargo/Tulo in addition to stabilizing the 3rd base position.
Your spin on the offense way overrates them…
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions
well technically that says overrates
not overrated :)
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
The Giants went to WS last year with some pretty average/below average hitters in their lineup
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
and with ridiculously good pitching
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Here again. you use words without meaning.
“average+” “++”
Quantify this.
Torii Hunter’s wRC+ is 108. That’s lower than Dex and Smith.
Who or what exactly do we get as improvements over what we have?
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions
who are these power hitters that are available?
Power hitters like a Torri Hunter type (not Hunter himself) are available and not all that scarce.
I'm arguing that it's a better use of resources to go from terrible to passable with the rotation...
than to go from average+ to good.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
you know regression works both ways, right?
as does aging?
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
account for how much wrc+ hates people who play at altitude
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
wRC+ is park and league adjusted
that’s what the “+” means. straight wRC or wOBA numbers make us look a lot better, which is what wRC+ is there for.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Right.
Those numbers are league and park-adjusted. No tricks.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Right Jeff Cirillo went from a solidly above average to a slightly below average hitter just
by coming here. The + in wRC+ weights everyone they same and doesn’t account for how some players benifit from playing here, but doesn’t pay any attention to how it affects their road production.
Total
1996 .325/.391/.504 .894 OPS+121 wRC+120
1997 .288/.367/.426 .793 OPS+106 wRC+108
1998 .321/.402/.445 .847 OPS+123 wRC+129
1999 .326/.401/.461 .862 OPS+119 wRC+121
2000 .326/.392/.477 .869 OPS+100 wRC+97
2001 .313/.364/.473 .838 OPS+98 wRC+96
Road
1996 .350/.404/.548 .951
1997 .289/.371/.436 .807
1998 .329/.409/.469 .878
1999 .300/.375/.454 .828
2000 .239/.299/.329 .628
2001 .266/.327/.383 .710
the adjustments assume everyone that gets the bump from altitude will be just as good on the road as they would have been.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
one case does not statistical principle break
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Larry Walker arguably one of the best hitters of his generation
saw his Road OPS go from .964 in 1994 as an Expo to .845 in 1995 here. I am not saying it happens to everyone nor that everyone has the same issue with it, I am just saying it is completely ignored.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
no, it's not
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Explain to me how players who play at altitude have that accounted for?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
you have to take into account league run environment as well
when league wOBA is in the .350s, a high wRC+ will be more difficult to attain regardless of severity of splits
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Right.
I just commented below. League-adjusted stats are poor tools for comparing between years.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not following this.
Cirrillo’s wRC+ went down, even though his OPS splits stayed the same overall, most likely boosted by his home numbers.
Are you saying that this made him look better or worse? It seems like it showed him for what he was—an average hitter despite his OPS.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
What I am saying is that the + accounts mainly for home park
so Cirrillo was the same hitter here as he was in Milwaukee at least by overall numbers, but he lost 20% of his value by gaining .07 points on his OPS. wRC+ only accounts for the spike in his home numbers, and ignores his sudden .200 point drop in Road OPS
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Andres Galaraga was essentially the same hitter in 97 and 98
despite losing 30 points off his road BABIP he saw a .60 point spike in road OPS his wRC+ saw him as a 130 wRC+ hitter in 97 here and a 155 wRC+ hitter in ATL.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Then wouldn't you be arguing that our players are actually
better than their wRC+?
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Some of them are
particularly the young ones.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Ok. Well. If we get back to the original argument,
you’re only supporting my argument that our players are good.
As for your argument, I think that the league-adjusted factor clears out some of the issues that you are rightly pointing out.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Definitely it clears some of it out
but if you look at the best hitter this team has had on it as rookies, it seems like it takes a while for a hitter to adjust to the altitude. Tulo, Helton, Holliday, and Cargo all had extreme splits in their first full seasons.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
You're also missing one other big point though.
League-adjusted stats are NOT a good way to compare players from year-to-year. The league changes each year. They are the BEST way to compare between players in the same year, but not across years.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Right but picking two years that close together removes
a lot of that issue, unless you are arguing that the run environment in 94 was better than it was in 95. Walker was a 152 wRC+ Hitter in 94 for Montreal with his .416 wOBA he was then a 130 wRC+ in 95 with a .418 wOBA.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
94 and 95 are hard to compare, so yes.
Other years, from year-to-year, maybe not as much. But it’s not their ideal use, in my opinion.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions
stade olympique, park factors from B-R
multi-year: Batting – 101, Pitching – 101.
the same wOBA there is going to net you a higher wRC+ than it would in coors field
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Exactly because it assumes that it is exactly
as hard for every team to go on the road. So wRC+ sees the Dodgers playing a road series against San Diego as being weighted exactly the same as as the Rockies playing a road series there. Even though intuitively you you that change in altitude makes pitch placment harder on our pitchers, and pitch movement makes it harder on our hitters.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
i'm pretty sure this is wrong:
Exactly because it assumes that it is exactly
as hard for every team to go on the road.
what wRC+ does is place the numbers in a context-neutral environment, not assign separate H/R values and then recalculate….
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Funny that sounds like you are saying exactly
what I am saying.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
what you're saying is
you seem to think that every team and player should be experiencing as big a dropoff between his H/R splits as the average rockeis player does, which is the same thing as removing context
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
wRC+ is not based of OPS, it's based off wOBA
wOBA is a better metric, because of linear weights
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Right wRC+ is basically road adjusted wOBA correct?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
park and league adjusted
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Sorry that is what I meant
I personally thing it undervalues guys in extreme parks. SD hitters get a bit of a raw deal too.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Models always break down in prediction power
towards the extreme ends of the scales
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Precisely and since I pay a lot more attention to Rockies than
any other team I see it as clear as day. Look at Cirillo’s career he played in the most extreme hitters and pitchers parks.
In 5 Years in Milwaukee he averaged .845 OPS 118 wRC+
In 2 Years in Colorado he averaged .854 OPS 97 wRC+
in 2 Years in Seattle he averaged .603 OPS 67 wRC+
in 1 year in San Diego he had a .553 OPS 49 wRC+
in 2 more years in MIL he had a .790 OPS 108 wRC+
Adrian Beltre has a somewhat similar look to his career, and makes what A-Rod and A-Gon did in those cities that much more impressive.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
you have to take into account league run environment as well
when league wOBA is in the .350s, a high wRC+ will be more difficult to attain regardless of severity of splits
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
I understand that but everywhere else he played
he was at least close to league average.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
It's worth pointing out
that this club is 3rd in the NL in runs. No one in the NL will even reach 800.
Yeah, just look at the last three games
The Rockies have crushed their opponents by a combined score of 20-13. We’re on a roll!
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 7:54 AM MDT up reply actions
40% more runs at Coors this season than on the road...
could have something to do with it. We average a putrid .230 and 3.5 runs away from home, and it’s been putrid for two years running now. Before then, it was merely mediocre on the road.
If you count the Kouz
we have 5 on Sickels hitters list.
What do you think it will take to get Youk and Bonifacio?
Youkilis was mentioned in the Renck article and the Sox might take Street as bullpen depth, Wigginton to fill Youks void unless they find someone better and maybe prospect (Rosario).
Bonifacio is going into his first or second arbitration year so he might cost a few prospects that the Marlins would be interested in (Freidrich, Wheeler, ?).
Bonifacio can platoon with Smith as he is really good hitting lefties can come in at 3rd and move Youk over to 1st when Helton needs a break. Youkilis provides power and OBP and Bonifacio is getting better and is good at stealing bases.
In my opinion, I think you're undervaluing Youk (as much as I hate him) and overvaluing Bonifacio.
It would take a lot more than Street, Wigginton, and Rosario to get Youkilis. The relief pitching market is going to be flooded this offseason, and I doubt the Red Sox are going to want Wigginton (I doubt anyone will, to be honest).
As far as Bonifacio is concerned, there’s no way I’d give up multiple prospects for him – especially B-ish level ones such as Friedrich and Wheeler.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 8:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Although I must say, further looking into Bonifacio's stats,
Part of me really does like where you’re going with that. I wonder how much Coors Field would help his somewhat-nonexistent power.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 8:54 AM MDT up reply actions
He's only 26, and I believe next season will be his first arb year
It’s hard to say what it would take. Maybe Friedrich (or lower-level PuRP) and an org guy? Not sure…
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions
Probably more than that even.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Less than that, imo
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for a 26 SS with a .298/.363/.396 this year?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Exactly.
I don’t understand how it could go any less than Friedrich/depth.
It would take more than that, IMO.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions
He is an awful SS but probably an above average 2B
and he has a 9+% walk rate. Additionally you would be dealing with a team that way overvalues Super U players who are haveing BABIP driven success.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Lol @ subject line.
I don’t think you can say that. If you’re an awful SS, you’re probably not an above average 2B. We can HOPE he would be, but yea.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Playing SS is the toughest position on the spectrum for a reason
there is a reason why there are so few good hitters there. Bonifacio doesn’t have Barmes’ arm let alone Tulo’s but that isn’t nearly as much of a handicap at 2B
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Arm strength aside, the positions are similar.
Middle infield. Saying he’s awful in one and above average in the other… Well, it’s not that simple.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions
He’s also had one good year, and has floated from system to system.
I definitely think Friedrich would get it done.
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Agreed.
He’s like a better, more refined version of EY2. Wow, he’d make a great under-the-radar signing
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And he doesn't have a high-school throwing arm
So you can actually hide him at a few different positions in the field, without paying a huge price defensively.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 10:35 AM MDT up reply actions
Agree that's where he's most needed
But he can also pull a few innings at SS or 3B in a pinch – you would never do that with EY. And while I hope he wouldn’t be needed in the OF, it wouldn’t be a Wiggy-like disaster if he was out there.
Imagine, a versatile guy who’s actually versatile – instead of just equally bad at several positions.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd start him at 2B.
I know the defensive numbers aren’t fantastic, but I’d rather him than say.. Mark Ellis or something.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:54 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree with you
All I’m saying is that he would also solve that “emergency SS” issue, or whatever we call the guy who fills in once a month when Tulo takes a day off.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions
He could, I guess.
Though I’d rather have say.. Herrera in there. or Tommy Field.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions
And I mention those two names because one of those 2 will be on the OD roster in 2012
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Maybe so
But you wouldn’t have to carry one of them just for the backup SS need, if you had Bonifacio. Maybe Pacheco backs up Bonifacio at 2B and Bonifacio backs up Tulo at SS. I wouldn’t be super-excited about a Bonifacio-Pacheco DP combo, but you could make it work 3-4 times per year.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Herrera is more of an all-around utility player.
I’d like him back next year, because he’s cheap and his glove is ++. He’s fine. Pacheco probably takes over Wigginton’s role.
Ugh. I’m really starting to catch on to this Bonifacio idea..
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Field is just as good as Herrera.
Though I would like to develop Field for one more year in the minors.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Honestly, what is this obsession with “letting guys develop”
Field put up a great OPB in AA. There’s a reason players have options, you know. Put him in the majors and see what happens
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Because Field is obviously not ready to contribute on a major league level.
He’s not the future at 2B, and we already have a good utility infielder in Herrera.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Field is likely to be a better utility guy than Herrera.
You can find 6 Johnny Herrera’s within every single MLB system.
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Oh, he'll be marginally better i'm sure.
But what’s the rush? herrera is just fine for utility in 2012, while letting Field develop his IF defense in the minor leagues. Groom him to take over the utility role in 2013.
That’s the “obsession” with developing.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Because Field is obviously not ready to contribute on a major league level.
I also have issues with this statement. What else is there to prove in the minors?
He projects as a utility guy in the majors anyway, what’s wrong with letting him play?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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First off, because you burn an option year when you don't need to.
I just don’t see why you would want to rush to make a player a utility guy in the major leagues when he could get everyday PT in the minors, refining his skills to take over a year later.
Herrera is perfectly fine for 2012.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Because Johnny Herrera is nothing special
Why are we worried about burning options on utility guys again? It’d be like not calling him up until September because you are worried about starting his service clock. For regular prospects, it’s meaningless.
What skills, exactly, do you want him to refine? And at what level?
He’s shown a plus glove, decent arm, and good OBP ability with some pop. What else is there for him to learn?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Do we need a utility IF to be special?
They’re mostly there for their glove anyway. The potential offensive improvement between Field and Herrera is miniscule. Herrera already has more experience, as well.
Just his all-around game. Get more experience at both middle infield positions. Kid is only 24 years old!
There is very little reason to have him as utility over Herrera next year. Very marginal improvement in the offensive category, no defensive improvement, and he’ll get expensive quicker.
I just don’t see you on this one, Muzia.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions
He won’t get expensive. He’s a utility guy. We’ll just non-tender him for the next one.
We’re talking utility guy — the focus is defense. Field is already a pretty good defender by most accounts.
I’m not arguing that Field needs to be on the roster over Herrera. But to say that Field shouldn’t be up because he needs “more seasoning” is silly. He just had one of the better MI seasons at Tulsa for a Rockies prospect in several years. He’s ready to give the majors a shot.
If it doesn’t work, then use the options. Whatever. It’s just Tommy Field.
I’m just arguing that I want the guy with more upside on the roster. That’s Field.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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If it's just utility guy, and we're talking a mostly defensive position
Why the heck does upside matter at all!?!?
Herrera is just fine.
And on your first part. It’s a full year. We could get Herrera for 2012, then have Field for an extra year after that. And it’s no guarantee there’d be an adequate, cheap MI prospect with a ++ glove that’s ready for a utility role in the major leagues.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions
What if I don't want Johnny Herrera for 2012?
If we actually get to the point that we’re worried about getting Field for an extra year, this organization is in enormous trouble.
We know what Herrera is at this point, and there’s a reason he clears waivers. Everyone has one.
I want something better.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
But it's utility for middle infield.
There’d be very, very little improvement that Field could provide.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions
God, I hope it’s not out of the realm of possibility to replace that sterling .242/.313/.299 line that Herrera put up this season…
…in 320 PA
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Muzia, you are the one who said Field would take over a DEFENSIVE position
Realistically, and let’s be honest, I don’t see Field putting up more than a .250/.315/.320 line in the majors next year. In less than 300 PA.
Herrera is just fine.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I strongly disagree.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yeah, the OBP I suggested is a bit low.
~.330 is a little more realistic. And maybe a bit higher SLG than that, though he hasn’t showed any pop this month (don’t kill me for SSS, it’s a fact.)
There is no need to replace Herrera next season.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions
because with JT as our manager, I don't want to go through another season with hererra getting 300+ PAs
Why the heck does upside matter at all!?!?
Thank you.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
and most of that is because Herrera was red-hot to begin the season.
He earned his ABs early on.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions
but we have a manager that continued to start him after that 20 game hot streak for another 180 PA.
He’s been gawdawful for 5/6 of the year. He can be easily replaced.
If we want to turn around a sinking ship, we have to throw away all the deadwood. Herrera is the deadest kind of deadwood.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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it's the 25th man on the roster.
A guy that would barely play next season, as long as we properly upgrade our 3B and 2B options. A guy that would only play in blowouts, or for a couple of games in case an injury occurs, or for a defensive inning.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Prove it.
I want a Tracy-proof roster. I don’t want any terrible players for him to fall in love with. I don’t want any marginal backups that will inexplicably get 300+ PA.
I want the best possible 25 players on the 25 man roster next year, and Herrera’s .612 OPS while playing half his games at Coors Field does nothing to convince me he belongs in the Major Leagues.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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Herrera is what he is.
It’s very important that we get a viable 2B in the offseason.. Like Bonifacio. Someone Tracy cannot easily replace when/if Herrera goes on another hot streak.
The problem with 2011 was that Jose Lopez looked so absolutely shitty that Tracy had no other option but to play Herrera, hoping he could be the team’s sparkplug. Lopez was BAD.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I want a Tracy-proof roster.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
So a perfect one?
Field is the flashier, younger, better-minor-league-stats player, but for the 25th man on the roster, we’re talking mini improvement, if any at all.
Seems like we’re just going to continue to disagree on this point.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
I want the better player. That’s my argument.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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25th man on the roster.
Not. A. Big. Deal. Especially when there’s no difference in price.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
So why not get the better player?
Give me a good reason why we should be happy with a lesser player at any part of the roster.
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Because Herrera is an adequate, CHEAP 25th guy on the roster.
And we can keep Field in the minors for one more year, to keep the service clock down by that much more, to keep him in the future for that much longer.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Field is a fringe MLB player.
We. Do. Not. Need. To. Worry. About. Service. Clocks.
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Exactly.
He is. Herrera already has the experience of this role, WHY NOT?
And even if he is fringe, having him under team control for one more year is reason enough.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t think Herrera is worthy of a spot on the 40 man roster. Field is.
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to continue this point, I think it’s irresponsible for the organization to devote two spots on the 40 man for a 25th man roster-type player.
Field has to be on there, and he is ready for at least MLB utility work. He gets the gig, and can likely improve upon Herrera’s 2011 dreadful season with minimal effort.
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What Hererra is, is a replacement level player
Or below replacement, depending on what WAR you want to look at.
Hererra: -.3 rWAR, +.1 fWAR, in 104 games
Field: +.2 rWAR, +.2 fWAR in 15 games
Even if you don’t think it will be that much of an improvement, its still an improvement and with the higher upside maybe there is an injury that Field can fill in for and not totally suck
Wow. Field is 0.4 dWAR already?
I find that pretty incredible.
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I thought numbers in September were meaningless?
Maybe, but that’s still very little playing time.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:50 PM MDT up reply actions
You are actually the one burning the Option year by sending him back down
Keeping Field up with the big league club doesn’t burn an option year
you said
First off, because you burn an option year when you don’t need to.
But you are arguing to send Field to AA. In order to get him there, you have to Option him, thus you are actually the one burning an option year on Field instead of Muzia
Looking back at the comment, I am guessing what you meant was keeping Field up in the mlb keeps his service time clock ticking.
D'oh.
Second paragraph is correct. That’s what I meant, thanks purplesocks.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah I like Bonifacio too
Seems like he’s always giving an opponent fits, especially if it’s the Rockies.
I’m not really opposed to having either Herrera or Field on the team if it’s necessary, but all the better if it’s not. I actually think carrying an 8th reliever might make a lot of sense next year, given the number of starters we have who are either returning from major injuries, or just generally made of Jello.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Who are your 4 backup position players?
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Don't need names here.
Just position.
Backup catcher is certainly one. At least one backup OF. Then we need a guy that’s going to fill in at IF corners. And one guy in middle IF.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah I can't really say who I would keep
until I know who’s starting at 2B and 3B. But if I have some versatility there (like Bonifacio would provide), I might consider the 8th reliever a worthwhile spot for at least part of the season. I say this only because even under the most optimistic scenario, the starting rotation is going to be pretty fragile.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
I like your thinking with the extra arm, but I can’t see it happening with Giambi already penciled onto the bench.
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That's exactly the problem.
Giambi AND EY can’t be on the team next year if we’re planning on getting an extra reliever.
I could totally see Herrera/Pacheco/Rosario/RH platoon OF as our bench.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions
I am in full denial
about Giambi coming back again. I know it’s going to happen, but I’m hoping for a lovers’ quarrel between him and O’Dowd.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions
I know people will poke holes in these ideas
And probably with good reason, but this gets an A for creativity. We need more thinking like this by DOD.
The Youk thing is off-base,
but man I’m really coming around on that Bonifacio idea. That’s a great suggestion.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions
He was their return on the Willingham trade
I think they are either going to trade Hanley or move him to 3B
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
If Wiggy was above average on D at 3-4 positions
and had one excellent skill(Boni’s Speed) we wouldn’t have had a chance to sign him
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
You're probably right.
It just feels like Wigginton 2.0.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions
How so?
Totally irrelevant, in my eyes.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Band aid on a gaping wound?
At least we didn’t really acquire Wigginton for him to be the starting 3B. It just worked out that way.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Bonifacio has solid numbers.
He’s entering his prime. And he’d be coming to Coors.
Start him at 2B.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions
It's still one year.
He had 500 PAs in 2009 and a 61 OPS+.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions
That was his very first year of significant playing time.
You can’t put too much stock into that.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Are you the same guy killing Rosario for September?
I’m confused. ;)
Anyway, you’re right. But I’m cautious of this being a great move,
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, of course, I'm killing Rosario for his brutally bad mechanics.
But I’m coming around on him. I like his future.
It has a chance of being a great, under-the-radar move. Bonifacio would instantly be an improvement on offense.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Also, consistently high SO/AB.
Especially for a guy with no power.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions
SO% are semi-concerning.
20% is a bit high, but BB% is good.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Not a huge problem.
But he’s not a sure thing by any stretch. It concerns me about giving something up for him.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions
If the something is Friedrich/depth
I do that in a HEARTBEAT.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Whoaaaa buddy.
Youk for Street/Wiggy?
LOL.
That’s laughable. It’ll take a couple top prospects to get Youk.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Again, I don't think the 2012 team will be constructed like this.
I see DOD making more moves, bringing in some new players. At least, that’s what I thought he’d do when he did that public conference. . .
@CentralCaliRox
I wish I shared your confidence
This team had a lot of the same holes at the 2010 trading deadline that it has now, and O’Dowd’s answers were Manny del Carmen and Octovio Dotel.
And oh yeah, we flirted with the idea of Jorge Cantu.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions
whens the next conference going to be
didn’t they say they were going to do them monthly?
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions
I really don't care about RH in the OF.
With RH at 2B, SS, 3B and Catcher, (and Todd at 1B), that’s a 50/50 split on everyday position players. Giving Tracy the MATCHUPZ option is just going to make it that much more painful than playing your best players as often as possible.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
Normally I'd agree
but Smith isn’t good enough with the glove to justify playing against LHP’s when he clearly can’t hit them. If he was better defensively, I’d be inclined to just say “let’s ride him out.”
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions
I wasn't just talking about Smith
See: Charlie Blackmon, Tim Wheeler.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
I don't know...
for some reason, whenever I see the word MATCHUPZ, the first thing that comes to mind is Seth Smith and I just start blabbering on about that…
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions
The other day, I suggested just giving the 3B job to Stewart.
+ defensively, + power, gotta be motivated headed into the offseason. If we’re not going to add a Chase Headley, give the job to Ian. Best option.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Stewart has no upside left with me.
He just doesn’t get it.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Maybe "high" explains his downside
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
How?
I agree on his defense, but he has no profitable approach to hitting.. Yes he has power; his flaws are so well known now that an MLB pitcher has to be as big a fool as Stew is to let him use it or having a very bad night.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
He's still just 26 years old.
Great power, obviously. LD% has always been pretty good, until this year. Very top prospect when he was coming through the system.
The upside is obvious
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions
He doesn't understand what is being done to him, or how to adjust.
The system failed him here. I don’t think he’ll grow up enough untill he’s released. Even then I don’t think he’ll get it.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
There sure is a lot of speculation in that comment.
I disagree. He learned from this year.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions
You are speculating that he proved that?
I saw much the same problems this year as in previous years only under a magnifying glass with a spotlight over it. You get him to chase outside and finish him busting him inside. Over and over again
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
ian actually takes too many pitches
his problem is chiefly standing too far in on the plate
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Still pretty bad Oswing rates. He doesn't recognize what's being thrown to him.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
A huge upside but it certainly looks unlikely he gets there.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Side note:
Charlie Blackmon has shown no splits in his minor (and major) league career so far. His contact bat was sorely missed the second half of the season, imo. He’d make a great 5th OF instead of Wiggy — can defend all fields, cheap, can make contact, hits both LHP and RHP. He becomes more valuable if the power develops, but for next season he should be a decent part of the team.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
by Muzia on Sep 28, 2011 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see how we carry 5 outfielders
if we’re going to carry Pacheco/Wigginto and Giambi.
Again:
C: Ianetta/Rosario
1B: Helton/Giambi
2B: Ellis
SS: Tulo
3B: ? (Trade)
CI: Pacheco (or Wigginton if not traded)
MI: ? (Field/Herrera/???)
With four outfielders, that’s 13 position players. I can’t imagine us carrying 11 pitchers with the rotation we’ll be carrying next year.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions
But you need two backup first basemen
To back up your backup first baseman, because the backup first baseman is 57 years old and can’t play twice in the same week.
And have I mentioned that one of the backup firstbasemen who backs up the backup first baseman never played the position before last week, and the other one is 25 pounds overweight?
It’s like another verse of “Who’s on First”, Rockies-style!
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Jordan Pacheco
Backup 3B
Backup to the backup 1B
Backup to the backup C
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
I think it's an either/or with Pacheco and Wigginton.
Something’s gotta give.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions
yes
Pacheco >>>>> Wiggy
Is it 2012 yet?
by DAWNMARIE01 on Sep 28, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions
I will happily wager $5 that Pacheco will have a lower WAR than Wiggy at the end of the 2012 season
Anyone fancy it?
If we trade Wiggy, all well and good, but if we are forced to keep him, I don’t know if I’d want Pacheco taking his place more often than necessary.
Since the start of 2009
Wigginton has a negative WAR
-0.5 fWAR
-2.7 rWAR
That’s setting the bar pretty low.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions
I'll take this bet. But I'd rather bet ₤5.
Oh. Oh. Can I say five quid? That’s even better. I want to bet five quid.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions
Uh, so I didn't get an email,
when do playoff tickets go on sale?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Sep 28, 2011 8:50 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
This makes me go
:(
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 8:52 AM MDT up reply actions
You have to buy them from...
the guy who guaranteed a NL West title.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
…for the second year in a row.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Think we'll see a 3rd?
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
With this team -- uh, no.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
$20 bucks, I'll get you great seats
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Do I have to buy the plane ticket?
because if I get to pick the game I might take you up on that
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
The $20 tickets
Are only for games in Arizona (and Atlanta if they get in)
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
I'll take the Arizona tickets
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
The October after Jim Tracy gets fired
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 9:01 AM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
I reccd it
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
My greatest fear
Is that I’ll wake up tomorrow and it will still be today, and I’ll be in a Groundhog Day situation in the last day of the 2011 season.
Kevin Kouzmanoff:
With OAK: stats/stats/stats
With COL: Irrelevant small sample size
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Sep 28, 2011 9:18 AM MDT reply actions
on the plus side, Todd Helton will learn to play piano.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Sep 28, 2011 9:20 AM MDT up reply actions
also how to carve ice.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
That would be awesome.
This year sucks.
by prettyinpurple on Sep 28, 2011 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions
So I haven't really paid attention to baseball for like a month
part by design, part by time constraints,
but Atlanta and Boston, what the crap?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Sep 28, 2011 9:21 AM MDT reply actions
...and hilarity ensued!
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
Every dark cloud
Has a silver lining.
It would be gravy if New York and Philladelphia don’t make it out of the first round of the playoffs as well.
Get well soon Juan.
You were here on the 9th of September
when I warned of Boston’s possible collapse.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions
This
In a week I’ll be counting the days until Pitchers and catchers report, but right now I’m over 2011.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
sad but true
I watched about 2 minutes last night, I thought no Cargo, Tulo, Helton or Iannetta, really what is the point of watching, losing 7-0 with 3 hits all night makes me not feel bad for not watching.
2011 - not even light can escape
Same here
And I have a hard time seeing myself watching any of tonight. Might have a free ticket to see some pre-season Avs. And you know what, that sounds about a billion times more fun than watching the Rockies.
Is it a night game?
My schedule cup said it was a day game. But it’s been wrong before, and a day game today doesn’t make a lot of sense. (Besides ending the pain of 2011 as soon as possible.)
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
Your right
Oh well, I’ll be working, and the Rockies haven’t earned their way onto the restaurants TV’s in over 3 weeks.
It is indeed a day game
1:45 MT start
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
The real fun tonight starts at 7:00 EST
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions
Hot.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Something backless.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Something assless?
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
by Russ Oates on Sep 28, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Assless?
You mean like Clay Mortensen?
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions
He means like this
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Good call
Some thing cannot be unseen.
"Surgeons have determined that doing the wave will, yes, will cause tears to the suprapinatus muscle and the infraspinatus muscle from the throwing of an individual's arms rapidly into the air. In addition, any children doing the wave will be sold to the circus. Do NOT do the wave in the ballpark. Doing the wave is safe at pro football games and Miley Cyrus concerts.
-scoreboard announcement at Ranger Ballpark in Arlington via Baseball Nation.
It isn't anything bad.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Yes, it is.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
it's sort of sexy.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Uh, huh.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Is it a world-famous, one of a kind, Maria-made Photoshop picture?
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
It's filled
with unicorns and fairy dust and all that jazz.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Yes.
Yes it is.
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
Oh I know
But Morty definitely has the condition known as Gluteus Minimus…
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 10:31 AM MDT up reply actions
More like Gluteus Nonexisteus
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
…
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Giants needed a day game today
So they would have a longer break between the end of their 110-win season and hosting the hapless #4 seed in the NLDS on Friday.
I marked it down.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions
You know what's funny?
I was a little worried about the timing of my trip early on in the season. I didn’t want to be out of the country when the Rockies clinched the division.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Sep 28, 2011 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions
This is was happens when your "boy wonder" GM,
Does it get any better than this?
They are trying to UPGRADE to Bruce Chen for a possible MUST WIN game. HAHAHAHA!!!!!! Karma is one fickle b**** ain’t she?
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions
/perfect game
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Owns what,
a career 96 ERA+?
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions
/applause
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
How bad do you think they wish they kept Millwood now?
Also, I saw that Chen is going to be a type B free agent. I would think that would mean the Red Sox would have to give the Royals something significant to get him? I’d imagine the Royals wouldn’t be willing to part with a high draft pick just so they don’t have to pay Bruce Chen for one more day.
great point
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Sep 28, 2011 11:25 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Millwood plays into the point
of Epstein not being a good GM. His drafts have been mostly poor. His trades have stripped him of most of what he did draft that had any value. His signings have led to ridiculously overpaid players.
If you put him on a team with no money, he’s Jim Hendry.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions
If you put him on a team with no money, he’s Jim Hendry.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions
No. I'm saying that he would be ridiculed like Hendry
if he were on a team that didn’t have the money to cover up his mistakes.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Nobody saw Crawford being this bad
But his drafts include Ellesbury, Pedrioa, Lowrie, Lavernaway, Reddick, Lester, Bucholtz, Papelbon, and Bard
His FA signings include some stinkers Crawford, Drew, Lackey, Daisuke, but also includes Papi, Scutaro, Aceves and Okajima.
His trades include Beckett, Lowell, Agon, Bay, VMart, Salty there is a reason he is still employed
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
This is an excellent list of why he isn't a good GM.
Thanks for helping.
I would say that I’m probably a little harsh on his drafts. He’s found some good late-round guys. It’s just his first rounders are right along the lines of DOD’s track record.
Besides that, even the free agent signings you list as good are ALL overvalued either in money or in years.
If Bay, Saltamamachia and Vmart are winning trades, then I’d hate to see what the losing trades were.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
His secret is that unlike O'Dowd he stockpiles compensation picks
who is a “good” GM? other than AA and Friedman of course
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
What has he done with those compensation picks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boston_Red_Sox_first-round_draft_picks
Umm…. Buccholz. Ok. Good. The rest?
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Bard, Ellsbury, and Lowrie were all comp picks
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Look at the list.
Only Lowrie. I wouldn’t use him to argue for what a great job Epstein has done.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Bard and Ellesbury are on that list
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
David Murphy was a good pick
so was Murton, Casey Kelly was a central part of a trade for a top 10 hitter in baseball.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
brian cashman is a good GM
billy beane was once a good GM, and may be again, if they can get oakland into a decent stadium…. alderson may be as well
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Julio. Lugo.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
$36 million
0.9 fWAR
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Epstein did not make the Beckett/Lowell trade
He left for a month when that went though.
Agree on the good draft but his free agent signings have been nothing short of a disaster.
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Thoughts on pursuing Buerhle. Pros/cons?
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Sep 28, 2011 10:30 AM MDT reply actions
Pro: He is Buerhly
Con: He is Buerhly
The Martha Stewart of processed foods.
Super Overlady Of the Ubaldo Lovers Club.
Proud Member of the PR gynocracy.
Video tips on posting links and images to Purple Row - Click Here -
He can eat innings and he can not suck. Sounds like exactly what the 2012 Rox need
Hard to estimate the availability though.
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Sep 28, 2011 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions
I would rather pursue the next Ryan Vogelsong
Even if it takes buying them by the six-pack. Too much organizational depth when everyone’s healthy.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
Who's the next Vogelsong
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Sep 28, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Heck if I know
It ought to be cheap enough to find him. Minor league contracts for all of my washed-up, still reasonably young pitching friends with decent arms.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
We should trade millwood to the Red Sox for Frankie!!!
plus he could play in the playoffs for Boston
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
He would be eligible?
That would be cool. Bring Frankie back as a SP.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
Do not want
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
by SurfaceThought on Sep 28, 2011 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Chicken.
I seriously think he would be okay. There’s room in the rotation that there wasn’t before, too. And if he sucks, cut ties.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
I’ll file this under “comments from 2008” and move along
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Eh, if the price isn't too high, I wouldn't mind stockpiling him
I don’t think he’s the answer. I wouldn’t mind him as depth.
Hell, let’s go to the Marshall school and sign every one of those kids to minor league contracts, too.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
If you can't tell, I'm all about low risk, high reward moves
This team, as currently composed, can’t win next year. The players available on the trade and free agent markets either won’t help, or will be too expensive. Ergo, load up on the low probability, high ceiling, super-cheap assets and roll the dice.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
Casey Kotchman
he has been amazing this year 128 wRC+, what does everyone think of giving him Giambi’s roster spot?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Noooooooooooo
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
babip
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Sep 28, 2011 10:46 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
True but the last time he had a 300 BAPIP
he also had a 360 wOBA
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
partly, yes
but not entirely
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Depends
Did he have a heart attack yesterday? He went to the hospital with chest pains.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Then yes
Although the sound of O’Dowd crying himself to sleep every night could get a little disheartening.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Cots shows this as the last year of Cole Hamels contract, doesn't he have one more year?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Man that would be an awesome signing
I feel like I’ve heard nothing about him on the FA market though…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
He was Super 2
meaning he has another year of arbitration for 2012. Free agent in 2013
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
very good
Thank Goodness we drafted Jeff Francis instead
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Eh, Francis made it to the bigs quickly
And then to the top of the rotation on a team that went to the World Series. Then he got hurt.
O’Dowd should be held accountable for some Draft Day disasters, but I don’t think that’s one of them.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
It wasn't a bad pick, in fact it was a very good one
but I really wish we would go for the high ceiling guy (Kershaw, Lincecum, Hamels) rather than the figh floor guy.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Tyler Matzek.
There’s reasons we need him to succeed aside from “he has a great arm.”
He’s an experiment within the front office.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yeah he was really our first HS "ceiling guy" since Harrington
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
FYP
since harrington not chase utley
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Is Not Chase Utley
Chris Nelson?
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow. Did you know that Shane Victorino is the 11th highest paid player on the Phillies roster this year, at $7.5 mil?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Phillies have 53 mil coming off the books this year (lot of money still on the books too)
I bet they lock up Hamels this offseason.
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
/Ruben Amaro
I bet they go after Jose Reyes.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I could definitely see that with Rollins being a FA
I also wouldnt be surprised if they resigned Oswalt to some insane contract
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
Can you imagine?
Giants + Mets + Phillies all outbidding each other to sign Jose Reyes? It’s a perfect storm.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Reyes could have more money than Warren Buffett before this is over
I'm pretty disgusted right now!
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Sep 28, 2011 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions
Just a hunch
But I think Oswalt will hang it up after this year — too many back problems & he has a lot of pride in his performance level. I don’t see him hanging around just to try to play through injuries. Especially if the Phils win the WS.
I think you're probably right.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bear Naked - My thoughts on sports, music, and life.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Sep 28, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Howard's $25mil salary kicks in next year
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Sep 28, 2011 11:24 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah but including that, they still have a 53 mil difference between whats on the books and their payroll number this season
and if they go deep in the playoffs again this year their overall payroll could go up even more
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions
You aren’t including arbitration cases.
The big losses are Rollins and Lidge, but I don’t expect them to have $53 mil in space for this offseason.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
and ibanez and oswalt
Really, Hamels is their only big arb case. And thats why I think they will try to lock him up longterm this offseason
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Pence probably gets a hefty Arb offer too
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
You're right, I was going off of Cot's excel file that lists everyone in one spot
And Pence wasn’t even listed. He is arb eligible though and will definitely see a nice raise.
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions
I am hoping Pence has a monster night tonight
4 RBI would give him the magic 100 and every run the Phils score means the Cards have a better chance to get in.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Maybe but there is still some guys due some significant raises soon(Lee, Pence)
and Lidge, Madson, Rollins, are FA this year Polanco, Victorino next year.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
Are you sure?
He’s had about 6 years of service and Cots and rotoworld list him as a FA for 2012. He also signed a 3 year deal in Jan ’09…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Cots shows going into the year he only had 4 years of service
So after this year he’ll be at 5
by purplesocks on Sep 28, 2011 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
He signed the three year deal instead of entering arbitration his first year, IIRC
meaning he still has one year of arbitration remaining.
Where are you seeing the 6 years of service?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
just looking at his stats, nothing official
I guess innings limits held him down early on. my baddddd
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Hamels leaves the season with 5.143 days of service.
This is not enough to declare. He’s headed for arbitration.
RockiesRoster.com - Your best source for organizational contract and transactions information.
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
~WolfMarauder
by Greg Stanwood on Sep 28, 2011 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Hoping the Mets reseign Reyes...
So that they’ll have to move Wright to keep their budget intact. I don’t really see Reyes going back there, though. The rumors of Aramis going to join Ozzie in Florida make our 3B situation even worse.
Really? Sounds better to me if we're not wasting our money/time on Ramirez.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions
He’s certainly an upgrade over Stewart/Kouz/Wigginton, and he isn’t washed up like Lopez.
by DesertTurtle on Sep 28, 2011 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions
While also being 10x more expensive and older.
Not a good option.
@CentralCaliRox
by CentralCaliRox on Sep 28, 2011 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Hmmmm
The point is that in terms of a good starting lineup, Colorado is probably already a playoff caliber team going into 2012, provided that Ellis can be re-signed
… what might be the most frustrating part of the season to me is that Colorado is only 22-21 when their pitchers allow 2 or 3 runs. The Rockies should honestly be winning at least 65-70% of those games.
It’s very difficult to reconcile both of these statements. I suspect the problem is that the first is based on a bunch of stats that don’t consider the situation. The Rockies need to get a whole lot better advancing runners, scoring from 3rd, etc. before they can be considered a playoff-caliber lineup. I’d like to think an offseason and coaching work in spring training will help with that, but I thought that last year too. We’ll see.
"The game of baseball is made up of many little things. If we do all the little things right, then we'll never have a big thing to worry about" -- Cal Ripken, Sr.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #3
Lineup
Young7
Fowler8
Ellis4
Kouzmanoff5
Smith9
Pacheco2
Wigginton3
Field6
Pomeranz1
Will be interesting to see Pacheco catch more than an inning.
Listening to KOA:
Jack, please stop trying to make excuses for him and stop defending Wigginton’s ineptness w/ RISP.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
/it is a new beginning, right?
by The Lodo Magic Man on Sep 28, 2011 12:51 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Jack whacked Wiggy pretty good last night
When he whiffed in the second inning with two on and nobody out.
He must have gotten marching orders today to make nice.
by Northsider1964 on Sep 28, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
oh wtf
Michael Cuddyer is a potential outfield target for Colorado, writes Renck, and signing him might mean trading Seth Smith.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
eww
do not want cuddyer, gimme my aramis
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
career splits for Cuddyer
vs LHP: 131 wRC+
vs RHP: 102 wRC+
He’s a good bat, but you have to expect these numbers to regress with his age. Also, he’s not a good fielder.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
considering how many more RHP there are, I really don’t see this as a substantial upgrade.
Get a platoon partner for cheap. It’s the easier fix.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
how come you know this
but our entire organization doesn’t?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
It’s too bad that Iannetta and Rosario both crush LHP, and we won’t be able to find a way to get into the same lineup together.
Unless, 1B…..
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
I really want
CDI as the guy who backs up Helton.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
aramis
vsLHP 129
vsRHP 115
and he’s got a clear position to play, even if he’s not a very good fielder
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Is that difference worth about $60 million?
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:02 PM MDT up reply actions
maybe
hopefully.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
The same article pushes David Wright.
I’d have to say that I’m still there depending on what we have to give up.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions
given how meh are pitching looks to be next year
I’m not sure its worth giving up anything to get Wright for only 1 year. Unless we think we can sign him to a long term deal (which would bring up a whole different discussion of pros and cons)
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
A four-year $15 million per year deal with him
is a lot more palatable than a four-year $15 million per year deal with Aramis.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I'll pass on both.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Yes.
But if we’re going down that road, I’ll take Wright.
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
but I doubt he does that
He’ll probably come here, enjoy the thin air, have a good season and then say ‘later guys!’ and get something more than a 15mil for 4 yr deal…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
besides
you know he’s going to end up playing some 3b and some 2b at some point.
He’s going to cost draft picks and a good amount of money for something we kind of already have. And like you said, we can have a cheaper solution that should be even better…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Gah I so do not want Cuddyer here
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
I still think Headley fills our needs better than Cuddyer or Aramis.
His defense eclipses both of them; he’s a swithch hitter and can be used in multiple roles hitting.. He plays 3b, 1b& LF. He can plattonn with Smith in the outfield and Pacheco at 3b. Backup and or replace Todd. Hits well on the road! When Nolan A comes up he can fulltime at LF or 1b and he’s still in arb. Whatever he costs us in the trade will more than be covered by what Aramis or Cuddyer will cost in FA money and draft picks.
He will save us money that can be used for pitching. Think about it. That and his nubers have been supressed by Petco.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I think Headley would be the best combination of being realistic, cost/benifit and upside
of nearly any acqusition we could make.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
The question is:
Why would the Padres deal him?
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Three more years of arb left, and about to start getting really expensive.
They are still a couple years away, and he’s their best asset right now to bring back a few more impact guys.
I don’t think they should, but they would get quite a bit of value for him.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
SB Nation Denver | On Twitter | Random Music Writings
Agreed
It would be slick to deal him now. But I think this whole intra-division thing shoots it down…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I think they are still not sure if they can afford him.
I don’t think we have to blow them away to accquire him. They’ll want a pitcher and someone else , and cash
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Alex White, Blackmon/Wheeler, and cash?
by DumbAndNerdy on Sep 28, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions
so would i
we’d be ripping them off big time
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Are you people high?
I wouldn’t trade any one of those three guys for Headley. Unless they’re basically willing to give him away, I’d go with a Stewart/Pacheco platoon. You’ll get about the same production.
Jason Giambi for player-manager in 2012!
How the world will end in 2012: George of the Roses builds a Machine that Pommels everyone with La Violencia during Whiteouts.
where is the headley talk actually coming from, though?
i just searched MLBTR for “chase headley” and the latest article discussing him was in january.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
exactly
we may as well discuss trading for a-rod or longoria for all the basis in reality there is to talk about headley
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
Cheadley is not unrealistic
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
i just searched MLBTR for "chase headley" and the latest article discussing him was in january.
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
How many Pomeranz mentions are their 3 months before we traded for him?
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=drew+pomeranz+MLBTR
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
so you only believe MLBTR?
My point is that discussing trading for Cheadley is not unrealistic.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Do you know anything living there I haven't mentioned?
Is there any local buzz about his ARB?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
No.
Not that I’ve heard. I do think with anyone not named Mat Latos , the Padres will move anyone at anytime.
"I think I speak for everyone in here when I say: It''s playoffs or bust"- Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Especially with 7 figures due to them with 8 figures in the near future.
They traded Adams rather than Bell even though he cost less and had an extra year of control. We would have to make them a decent offer but I believe Headley could be had.
~ Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too ~
I read in june at ESPN if they didn't move Ludwick they abosolutly would have to move him...
Even then they weren’t sure thet could keep him. They did not do not want to pay him Stewart money regardless.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Reply fail to Papality
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
well MLBTR does a pretty good job compiling this stuff, they tend to catch stuff, even on the small sites like ESPN
and the last headley article was from january, so there’s pretty much no chase headley talk going on, unless it’s VERY hush-hush
the only organization of humans responsible for more evil in the universe than the philadelphia phillies is the boston red sox
be happy, because 2012 is coming.
I have been wrong before; I don't think I am this time and Rox Girl seems to think I'm right about this.
Considering he’s the only viable Offensive player they have left it would not be advertised much. They really can’t afford to let him be the face of the franchise can they?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
lol Drew Pomeranz as a number 2 starter
No honestly I see him as a future ace. After seeing two of his starts with my own eyes I think he’s got the tools to be a 20 game winner in the future. Alex White on the other hand reminds me more of a Dewon Brazelton caliber starter. I could see him as a future 20 game loser.
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