Wednesday Rockpile: At Least Larry Walker Makes My 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot
Since nary a peep has been heard out of the Rockies since the announcement of the Casey Blake deal, I figured that it would be germane to discuss the big baseball topic at the moment -- the 2012 Hall of Fame ballot. The Hall is a very divisive topic among baseball fans, largely stemming from its vague guidelines for voters and very strange selections in the past. Most writers seem to favor a very small Hall, composed of only truly great (or more recently it would seem, "clean" and pretty good).
Joe Posnanski has a phenomenal look at the history of Hall of Fame voting to show just how strange the Hall's history has been. Here's Posnanski's well-researched and thought-out 2012 ballot...and here is a ballot that, to me, falls a little short of baseball sense. Bill at the Platoon Advantage goes through every player on the ballot here, while Chris Jaffe at the Hardball Times predicts how HOF voting will end up -- Larry Walker ends up at only 27%.
So where do I stand on the Hall of Fame? I certainly see the point of writers that want to maintain the Hall's entry status, but I think that there are many eligible players that are better than the current average Hall of Famer that need to be elected. In the next few years a slew of excellent players will gain eligibility and there will be an unholy mess in trying to sort it all out.
With that said, I only really see six worthy players on this year's ballot. Obviously, this is a hypothetical ballot, but I think that it's an excellent exercise if nothing else to remember the great players of yesteryear. Or if you're as young as I am, to discover how great they were for the first time.
Last year, I filled out a mock ballot and this year I'm doing the same. Here is my methodology in a nutshell:
1. The player has to raise the HOF median per the rWAR/WAE/WAM* bullseye method. For position players, that total is 58.0/23.3/3.7, while the median HOF pitcher has a score of 57.2/25.6/5.2. Basically, Hall of Fame pitchers provide less value over their careers, but their peak performance is higher.
* rWAR -- B-Reference WAR; WAE -- Wins Above Excellence, found by totaling up the surplus WAR in any given season in which a player accrued over 3 WAR; WAM -- Wins Above MVP level, found by totaling the surplus WAR over 6 WAR in one season; For example, Troy Tulowitzki's 2009 would be scored 6.3/3.3/0.3
2. A position player needs to exceed at least two of the bullseye metrics, while a pitcher needs to exceed at least one and come close in another. In the 2012 ballot, no pitcher comes close -- especially old school writer favorite Jack Morris. PS: Todd Helton passes muster on this HOF test at the moment (59.9/26.0/6.7), which if nothing else makes me happy.
3. Dominance within era is very important to me, as I feel that 2-3 dominant seasons are more impactful than several good ones. That is why it is 2/3 of the formula (WAE/WAM) is dominance-related.
4. The bullseye method accounts for peak excellence as well as longevity, but it doesn't take into account postseason excellence, integrity/character, and other factors that muddy the waters of HOF voting considerably. Rob Neyer has an excellent discussion of this mentality. My opinion is that those factors should be only applied to the most borderline of cases.
Why do I look at it this way? Well, as someone is likely to point out, I'm too young to have seen several of these players in their prime (or at all). Therefore, all I can rely upon is their statistical record and anecdotal evidence. I'm more inclined to trust the former than the latter.
Here is the 2012 ballot by the rWAR/WAE/WAM bullseye method. As you can see, the 2012 rookie class is incredibly weak, with no players that even approach the HOF median.
Without further ado, here's who would make my 2012 HOF ballot, in descending order of merit by rWAR/WAE/WAM:
1. Jeff Bagwell (79.9/38.7/9.7) -- Bagwell surpasses each bullseye metric and ranks first on my ballot due to his impressive 9.7 WAM, which is about twice the score of anyone else on the ballot. To be honest, it's hard for me to take anyone who doesn't have Bagwell in the Hall seriously -- he's head and shoulders above anybody else on the ballot.
2. Larry Walker (67.3/23.3/4.4) -- Walker's 9 WAR MVP season in 1997 is the best season for anyone on the ballot, plus he meets/exceeds every bullseye metric. That and his status as a Rockie make him a pretty easy pick for me. It's a real shame that his candidacy hasn't gotten more consideration, but I believe and hope that Walker is a very good candidate in the next few years for a resurgence as the way writers look at statistics continues to evolve.
3. Alan Trammell (66.9/26.1/3.8) -- An underrated defensive shortstop (career 7.5 defensive WAR) with superficially unimpressive offensive statistics who also performed well in the playoffs, Trammell is basically the same player statistically as the probably in Larkin, except his peak was slightly better.
4. Barry Larkin (68.9/25.7/1.6) -- Larkin's case for candidacy is well-elocuted here, but basically Larkin is better than almost all HOF shortstops (Ripken included) on a rate basis. He's also the one guy who is virtually assured of getting inducted this year, which is great.
5. Tim Raines (64.6/21.4/2.3) -- Besides being very efficient at stealing bases, Raines might be the second greatest leadoff man in recent history. He just had the misfortune of playing at the same time as the best, Rickey Henderson. Struggles with cocaine have likely hurt Raines in the past, but I'd love to see him inducted. My guess is that in such a weak year, Raines makes a big jump toward election.
6. Edgar Martinez (67.2/26.3/2.3) -- Martinez is right on the edge due to his career's late start and the fact that he was a DH his entire career. He's got fantastic offensive numbers though (as a DH should, I suppose) with a career .312/.418/.515 triple slash, and that puts him over the edge.
Remember those borderline cases I was talking about where intangibles and character are taken into account? Well, these two guys are probably on the other side of the cut with that in their favor, but at this point aren't up to snuff because of intangibles:
7. Mark McGwire (63.1/25.3/2.5) -- The number that really jumps out at me with McGwire is the .982 career OPS. That and the career .394 OBP. Beyond steroids, there are two primary problems with McGwire's candidacy. One is that his career was pretty short (700 ABs shy of Walker) due to injuries and his sudden fall off the cliff after age 36. Two, he was a butcher on defense at the easiest position in the game.
8. Rafael Palmeiro (66.0/20.5/1.6) -- 3020 hits and 569 HRs over a 20 year career sure look nice, but Palmeiro was basically just a good player who had a graceful decline. The Mitchell Report mention and the circus before Congress sure doesn't help.
Two pitchers who have no business even being on the ballot at this point, Jack Morris (39.3/9.4/0) and Lee Smith (30.3/10.9/1.5), will continue to garner many more votes than several more worthy players. One thing is certain though: I'll be unsatisfied when the voting results are revealed.
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JFK's Quote of the Day:
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JFK
Are we still kicking around the Brad Lidge idea?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
I haven't heard anything about Lidge in a while
but it’s still possible on a one year deal with a very low base salary.
if we signed him he would likely take one of the spots of our AAAA arms right? Like Rogers or whoever else?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Jan 4, 2012 8:24 AM MST up reply actions
Possibly.
I’m guessing if we signed him, it would be on a non-guaranteed contract in case he doesn’t beat out a guy like Rogers.
Man, the RP is on fire this morning.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 9:17 AM MST reply actions
We don't need no water?
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by prettyinpurple on Jan 4, 2012 11:14 AM MST up reply actions
I am upset with the
14 people who voted no. Jerks. Soulless jerks, all of you.
by Purple Row Troll on Jan 4, 2012 9:18 AM MST reply actions
I'm upset with politics right now
And that’s all I’m going to say about it.
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Get well soon Juan.
Be ye fortunate to have work to go to.
There are many without.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
I am upset by the fact that there are 94 baseballess days ahead of us.
I'M SORRY I WAS EVER MAD AT YOU, ROCKIES! COME BACK TO ME! I LOVE YOU!!
by prettyinpurple on Jan 4, 2012 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
Why
It’s not the hall of good players. But, i think it should be a hell of a lot harder to get into than it is.
13th in SLG% all time
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
it's okay if you're a small-hall guy
you’re wrong of course, but it’s okay for you to think that :)
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Hey! I'm a jerk,
but I’ve got soul, and I’m superbad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk8D7L7EPcg
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This reference is dynamite.
The hardest working poster on this thread!
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
I didn't click, but...
The immortal James Brown?
by Purple Row Troll on Jan 4, 2012 12:42 PM MST up reply actions
It's doubled since the time you posted this
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
On Walker's Candidacy...
Looking at his B-R page, the one item that stands out is his career OPS+ of 140. Add to that his 7 Gold Gloves, a batting title,a MVP, and 5 All-Star appearances you get a picture of a great all-around player with a few great peak seasons.
I’ll agree with the Posnakski article as say that the “if he’s in, then he should be in” argument has faults, but it can be useful. Look at this War Graph from Fangraphs: GRAPH You will notice that Walkers career totals are higher, his peak was higher, and on average his season totals were higher. That is compared to two recent inductees.
Based on games played versus total games available to play, Walker lost essentially 3.5 whole seasons worth of games to injury. If he had been a little more healthy, we might not even have to campaign for him, it would be automatic. But I should never underestimate the stupidity, and backward thinking nature of the majority of BBWAA voters. Heck, this is an organization that still considers baseball TWO WORDS! Go Larry!
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt
Walker shouldn't be punished for playing his peak in Colorado
He’s played for 3 organizations and switched very well in each one: when Walker moved from the Expos to the Rockies, his OPS only went up 7 points initially, and Walker was still a plus hitter in St Louis when he should’ve rapidly declined. He’s not a Coors product (though it helped) and his park adjusted numbers show that. I can understand the stupidity of more traditional voters, but it the people of Sabermetrics don’t believe in their own park adjusted statistics that show Walker to be deserving of the Hall of Fame, why aren’t they lobbying for him the same way they did for Larkin, Bagwell, Trammell, and Blyleven?
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ask Dave Cameron
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 9:34 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
That's Obvious, Dave would say Walker never played in the AL so he wasn't as good as some say he is
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I laughed
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 4, 2012 1:23 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
Lemme fix that for you
Walker No player should be punished for playing his peak in Colorado.
Pitchers from Shea or Dodger Stadium or Candlestick don’t get a tenth of the grief that Colorado hitters get.
especially because
jim “fenway” rice is in the hall
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Question:
Or maybe not a question. I don’t understand WAM. Specifically, why did George Michael leave?
But on a serious note, WAM for starting pitchers seems like a durn near impossible metric to attain.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 9:35 AM MST reply actions
Indeed. Mariano Rivera, by this method, is nowhere near the HoF discussion
56.3/9.7/0
that’s oh for 3
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 9:54 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Well, relievers are a whole different pot 'o honey
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by SurfaceThought on Jan 4, 2012 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
Yep. Still don't think that relievers have a huge impact. Rivera being the best of all time gets him in the conversation for me, but he's not an easy in
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he's back.
In pog form.
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Hey Maria, you sending some outgoing mail?
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 9:52 AM MST up reply actions
You know it!
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Yeah, I'll probably send some tomorrow.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 9:54 AM MST up reply actions
I hear that.
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^5
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 9:57 AM MST up reply actions
^5
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do you want to see my pog collection.
I just love MJ’s lack of punctuation/capitalization.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Jan 4, 2012 12:52 PM MST up reply actions
O.M.G
The first one. I literally cry laugh every time. And the writer’s description is dead on. You can’t explain why it’s funny, it just is.
Oh that made my whole day!
Thanks Muzia
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“well, he used to be the guy who got punched in the wiener, but he worked his way up to the guy who punches other guys in the wiener.”
“right on, right on.”
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 11:26 AM MST up reply actions
ditto.
my first thought was, “is that a cardboard cutout??”
Then, “oh, wait, no. I can see the reflection off his fivehead”
by Purple Row Troll on Jan 4, 2012 1:16 PM MST up reply actions
OMG
I’m crying at work from the hockey gatorade one. OH dear jesus that’s funny.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Jan 4, 2012 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
28
It’s super xtreme basketball fun time!!!
Holy eff I’m gonna get fired if I keep reading these, this one almost circumvented the “blow out through your nose really hard so it doesn’t sound like you’re laughing” technique
by Purple Row Troll on Jan 4, 2012 1:00 PM MST up reply actions
Also epic
is the page of Shane Victorino.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Jan 4, 2012 1:42 PM MST up reply actions
I would go Raines second and love Larkin as well. Add those two to Bagwell, and you’d have my votes.
Raines passes the dominance era test with flying colors. By fWAR, he was the second most valuable NL position player in the 80s.
I’m a little more on the fence about Larkin, but I think he did enough to get in, more because there just weren’t any NL comparables during that era. From 1980 to present, he’s still the NL’s best shortstop.
Sorry about the Walker no-vote. I’m of the opinion that Coors pre-humidor cannot be captured accurately by park factors, and I think the difference in those values is enough to drop him below the threshold. Maybe someday, but not today.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
What do you think about Galaraga switching to ATL and duplicatiing his last Coors season?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I think it was great for the Braves.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
right but doesn't it kink your whole Rockies player's numbers in the 90's don't count?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
No, not at all. It’s one player, one season.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
How many other prime players came here or left here in those years.
Just saying I might have to yank my Chipper vote for playing in the leagues second highest park.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I am not saying Coors wan't crazy but a lineup featuring
Galaraga, Walker, Bichette, Burks, Castilla combined with a staff that included “aces” like Kevin Ritz, Roger Bailey or Armando Reynoso might have had a bit to do with it.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Congrats on not addressing the issue.
The elevation can’t be changed anywhere and Atlanta isn’t the second highest anyway. But that’s an unrelated issue.
This issue with the humidor is the dry air. Now, if you’d like to make a claim that Atlanta’s an arid climate, I’m going to have to vociferously disagree with you. The region is considered by meteorologists to be a humid subtropic climate, and I think they can be trusted.
What you end up with is compounding factors that made Coors very advantageous for hitters. That’s not the hitter’s fault, and I don’t blame Walker any more than I blame God for making Denver high and dry. But you have to account for it, and I don’t think the adjustments have done a great job of doing so.
And I could very well be wrong. That’s just like, my opinion, man.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
And I'm wrong...
on the elevation. Pittsburgh’s got a significantly higher elevation, but not where the ballpark is built. My mistake.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
I think Chase is a bit higher now
I think altitude+dry air affects the outcomes more than just dry air (LA is not particularly humid) however the fact that this team suddenly got bad at hitting for power seems to coincide more with the loss of 4-5 All Star level bats(who were also for the most part below average defenders) and the addition of better pitchers. I am not saying that Colorado hitter didn’t see a bump but they also had their road product suffer(something that is never accounted for) and the combination of big powerful hitters trying to cover that OF(for everyone Greg Vaughn in RF? Sammy Sosa in CF?) and bad pitchers have more than a bit to do with Coors Canaveral.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
If Larry Walker had signed with the Yankees in 94
he would be a first ballot HOF.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Have you looked at his H/R splits?
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
He had three season in Colorado in which
he was as great at home as he was on the road (1997, 1998, 2002).
In his other seasons with the Rockies he drifted between terrible on the road (1996, 2003) to good (1995, 1999).
I’m not sure he would have had anywhere near the numbers that he has had he not played 70 games per season at Coors. That’s why I don’t like him in the HOF.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 11:26 AM MST up reply actions
Was Wade Boggs a borderline/not good enough player for you?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
No.
Wade Boggs had 3010 hits.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 11:54 AM MST up reply actions
Oh look Johnny Damon HOF
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
damon won't make the hall
arenado: it's Rockie for future
but but but 3000 hits
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Aren't you older?
Old enough to have watched Boggs?
Wade Boggs was a great player. You’re not really doing your arguments justice by trying to act as if Wade Boggs’ HOF candidacy is some kind of crock.
Damon, if he gets 3,000 hits, will probably not make it because his averages are so low. While Boggs had 3010 hits in 9180 PAs, Damon will need at least 10000 PAs if nor 10500 to make it there.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:16 PM MST up reply actions
boggs was also an outstanding defender
while damon… no.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I am not arguing that Boggs wasn't or that Damon was
what I am saying is that for me the HOF is the best of the best Larry walker was the best of the best
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Boggs had 25% more PAs than Walker
which allowed him to pass the magical 3000 hit mark. (Are we really still using that to judge HOF qualification?) Boggs had a 130 OPS+ and a 131 wRC+, while Walker had a 140 OPS+ and a 142 wRC+ (park adjusted stats). Walker’s numbers from Montreal and St. Louis support his argument as well. And while you might not trust park adjustments for Coors, keep in mind that they don’t account for the reverse Coors effect that Rockies players face on the road, driving down their road numbers.
Walker had 8030 PAs.
Boggs had 9180.
You might want to check your math.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:27 PM MST up reply actions
Sorry 10740. My bad.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:27 PM MST up reply actions
and even if it's not 25% more, that's still 20% more
arenado: it's Rockie for future
34% more, actually.
(10740-8030)/8030 = 0.337
and 160 less xbh
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
shh, i'm on vacation
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Boggs has 9180 ABs
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I should point out that I'm not saying Boggs doesn't belong.
Rather, I think that Walker was a better hitter than Boggs, and probably a better fielder too.
This is ignoring my original point,
which is what I think you have to do to accept Walker. You have to ignore the fact that he was good to terrible on the road when he played at Coors in all but three seasons.
You can ignore that if you want. I can’t. I’m not saying that he is bad. I’m just saying that he isn’t HOF materials because his stats show a dominant player for a few seasons, and a great player for other seasons. In essence, a Dale Murphy for different reasons.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:31 PM MST up reply actions
In addition,
this whole part of the thread started with me saying:
He had three season in Colorado in which
he was as great at home as he was on the road (1997, 1998, 2002).
In his other seasons with the Rockies he drifted between terrible on the road (1996, 2003) to good (1995, 1999).
I’m not sure he would have had anywhere near the numbers that he has had he not played 70 games per season at Coors. That’s why I don’t like him in the HOF.
No one has really responded to this.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:33 PM MST up reply actions
Instead, there was an attack on Wade Boggs
who played most of his career in a different era and was a completely different type of hitter.
I’d be more easily convinced if someone addressed the original point.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:34 PM MST up reply actions
but you can't just throw up H/R splits as a reason for a rockie not to be in the hall of fame, that's nonsense
wade boggs was brought up because his H/R splits are of a similar severity (120/80 sOPS+ for walker and 118/82 for boggs) and he played in better hitters parks on his away games
arenado: it's Rockie for future
That's Walker's career split.
Not his time in Coors.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:39 PM MST up reply actions
And, basically,
the split issue was to address this comment:
If Larry Walker had signed with the Yankees in 94
he would be a first ballot HOF.
I said that, looking at the splits, you could argue that he would not have hit as well if he played 70 games in Yankee stadium instead of Coors.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:41 PM MST up reply actions
you could, but you'd probably be wrong
don’t forget how yankee stadium played for LHB, or the lineups he’d be on
arenado: it's Rockie for future
The thing is, I don't think you can just look at the road numbers for a Rockie
and say that’s what they’d hit elsewhere. You can’t even say that they would have the same road production if they were on a different team. The adjustment in hand-eye coordination that the Rockies’ hitters have to make every time they go on a road trip puts them at an inherent disadvantage to everyone else. Not only that, but the parks that they play in most often on the road (~27 games in LA, SF, and SD) exacerbate the problem even more.
AT&T and PetCo were built in 2000 and 2004 respectively.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:45 PM MST up reply actions
Candlestick and Jack Murphy
weren’t exactly Chase either and Chavez has always surpressed LH power
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I can say that
in half of the games he played each year, except for three years, he was a player who wandered between good and terrible. That doesn’t sound like a HOF to me.
Whereas Helton, since 2001, has been great no matter where he plays. That is a HOF.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:47 PM MST up reply actions
Okay Larry Walker Road Numbers
90 .229/.316/.417 MON .270 BABIP 91 .300/.361/.477 MON .336 BABIP
92 .317/.357/.506 MON .353 BABIP
93 .225/.333/.382 COL .232 BABIP
94 .314/.388/.575 COL .335 BABIP
95 .268/.361/.484 COL .266 BABIP
96 .142/.216/.307 COL .135 BABIP
97 .346/.443/.733 COL .346 BABIP
98 .302/.403/.488 COL .326 BABIP
99 .286/.375/.519 COL .294 BABIP
I could keep going but they all pretty much look like that BABIP drives result for his H/R
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I’d think you would find that it also drives his home stats being so high.
I’m not sure what the point is unless you’re saying that he was VERY lucky at home and VERY unlucky on the road.
This argument doesn’t really make me feel as if he were a HOF either.
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You get what I'm saying right?
Dismissing one extreme due to BABIP also dismisses the other extreme.
It only backs up the fact that he was a player at two extremes for most of his peak years except three.
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Dismissing and accounting for are two
different things. His most injured years were his worst road years the same is true for Helton
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
FWIW, I account for worse production on the road.
I’m not someone that believes, “OMGZZZZ, DONT GET HIM CUZ HIS RODE SPLITS SUCK HES A LEEG AVRAGE PLAER IF HES NOT AT COORZ.”
And, to be brutally honest, I detest that crowd.
I think that Larry Walker is a borderline player that got a little help from Coors. With or without Coors, I still have him at borderline. I don’t think borderline players should be in the Hall.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
What part of 13th all time in SLG% is borderline
name a better RF during his era
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
vlad guerrero
arenado: it's Rockie for future
SLG isn’t park adjusted. Playing half of your career in the most hitter-friendly park in the history of the game may boost that number a bit.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
true some maybe that bumps him in to what 20th all time?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Maybe a little more...
20th would only be a difference of .008 SLG. I think the Coors bump accounts for a little more power production than that.
You’ll have to forgive me for not believing he’s not quite on the same level as Mantle and Mays, who are tied for 20th.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Are mantle and mays the floor?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
This is an excellent description of the pre-humidor Coors effect.
I had never really considered the poor outfield defense and pitching before.
in the first 10 years we existed
Larry Walker, Todd Helton and maybe Walt Weis were above average defenders. Burks was too beat up by then, Bichette was in his mid 30’s and not quick. Both however could punish the crap out of pitchers.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Humid air is actually less dense than dry air.
Combine that with the heat and elevation of Atlanta, and it’s probably not too far behind Coors.
the humid makes the balls wet.
Dry balls = bad balls. Go far when hit.
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The thought that Atlanta is close behind Colorado in this regard is, frankly, uneducated. On both humidity and elevation levels.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
not close but at least in elevation among the closest.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Among the closest, but there are 28 teams closer to Atlanta’s elevation than Colorado’s. When your elevation is more than 5 times that of the second-highest ballpark, being second isn’t that big of a deal.
For fun, I did some fun air density calculations. On an 80 degree day with the same amount of humidity, NYY would have a density of 0.733 lb/cubic foot @ 55 feet above sea level, Chicago would have a density of 0.718 reading at 596 feet, Atlanta would sit at 0.706 @ 1,056 ft. and Coors would be 0.606 @ a 5,200 feet. One of these things is not like the others…
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Atlanta doesn’t start with a “C”
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You're correct.
And that’s funny.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
new york's altitude is the only one not in at least triple digits
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Yes, it was an exaggeration.
A basic calculation shows that pressure drops by almost 18% at a mile above sea level. However, when you account for the difference in temperature during summer months and the relative humidity, the air density in Denver is 13% lower than that in Atlanta. Altitude is still the biggest factor, but the other two make a difference. If you compared Atlanta to a city that has low elevation, cooler temperature, and less humidity, I think the difference in air density would be non-negligible.
third highest now
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JFK
agree here mostly
there were too many Jeffrey Hammonds’, Jeff Cirillos, Jeromy Burnitz’ and Vinny Castillas that got more than the 15-25% boost in offense, not from home/road splits, but non-rockie to Rockie years. Park effects as constructed don’t model it totally. I am not smart enough to quantify the effects at Coors, though someone needs to. because the “We don’t totally understand all Rockies, so unless the numbers are Ruthian, I’ll ignore him” mentality is just as unfair.
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 11:05 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Okay one by one
Jeffery Hammonds OPS+ in 99(CIN) was 114, in 2000(COL) was 111 an .870 to .964 OPS jump, counterpoint… Ryan Ludwick..
Jeff Cirillo whoops put your foot in it here a .007 gain in OPS
Total
1996 .325/.391/.504 .894 OPS+121 wRC+120
1997 .288/.367/.426 .793 OPS+106 wRC+108
1998 .321/.402/.445 .847 OPS+123 wRC+129
1999 .326/.401/.461 .862 OPS+119 wRC+121
2000 .326/.392/.477 .869 OPS+100 wRC+97
2001 .313/.364/.473 .838 OPS+98 wRC+96
Road
1996 .350/.404/.548 .951
1997 .289/.371/.436 .807
1998 .329/.409/.469 .878
1999 .300/.375/.454 .828
2000 .239/.299/.329 .628
2001 .266/.327/.383 .710
Jeremy Burnitz had just posted a .274 .344 .581 for half a season with the mets the very next year he posted a .283/.356/.559 line here.
Castilla did hit better at coors but his H/R OPS split is no more dramtic than first ballot HOF Wade Boggs
Castilla
Home .295/.339/.518 .857 OPS
Road .257/.303/.435 .738 OPS total OPS Split .119
Boggs
Home .354/.443/.491 .934 OPS
Road .302 .387 .395 .781 OPS total OPS Split .153
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Look at it this way.
This is what makes Helton a HOF as opposed to some of these other guys. Since 2001, Todd has consistently been just as good on the road as he has at home. You can honestly say that he would have been just as good had he played anywhere else. I think you have a real problem trying to say the same about other Rockies before Todd including Walker. At lest Walker put up a few great years at home and away, but a few great years doesn’t make a HOF player. Ask Dale Murphy about that.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:09 PM MST up reply actions
lets try it this way would you trade a 22yo Larry Walker
for a 22yo Dwight Evans? Andre Dawson? Jim Rice? Kirby Puckett? I could see if the bar is set at Rickey Henderson or even Dave Winfield but a 140 OPS+ from one of the best defensive RF in history is legit.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
walker is better than or equal to all 4 of those
arenado: it's Rockie for future
The only one whom I think Walker is better than is
Dawson. I’d like to see how he is better than or equal to Evans, Rice, and Puckett.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 4, 2012 12:56 PM MST up reply actions
Okay
Kirby Puckett Career OPS+ 124 only 200 HR more than twice as many ks than walks.
Jim Rice 128 OPS+ horrid defender needed 1000 more PA to get 82 less XBH hits than Walker
Evans the best of those 3 127 OPS+ good defender needed 2000 more PA to get 25 more XBH than Walker a very similar player to Walker but nowhere near the baserunner.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
You realize comparing OPS+ between years is a slippery slope.
OPS+ is based on the average hitter from a certain year and the difference between this player and the average hitter from that year. As that average hitter changes from year-to-year, it makes it difficult to use as a cross-year/era metric.
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Wrong it measures how good a hitter hits relative the
run environment. That walker posted a 140 OPS+ in the most extreme run enviroment in history tells you that he was head and shoulders above guys who posted 125ish OPS+ in a deadball era. Especially if that 128 OPS+ came as a DH.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Look at #6.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/bat_glossary.shtml
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Using that criteria it favors Rockies hitters more than
discredits them
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
My point was that
it’s not a good way to compare between years and especially between eras. That’s all.
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Do you have a better way?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
No.
This is what makes the HOF debates frustrating. It’s very difficult to compare players between eras mathematically.
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Thats why I like to compare them
by seeing who can dance the best waltz.
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I decide by throwing down a sheet of linolium
And have an old school breakin’ battle.
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Get well soon Juan.
a graceful well danced waltz
is harder than a break dance.
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OOHHHH SH*T now you've done it
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
All a personal preference
And I love to waltz.
For me, the waltz displays excellent technical ability while breakin’ shows the players ability to think on his feet and improvise.
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Get well soon Juan.
Different eras — too difficult to judge.
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But not nearly as demanding as electric boogaloo...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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You be trippin.
Electric Boogaloo is just poppin.
Waltz is more technically demanding, and breakin’ is more physically demanding.
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you sir have never danced the fox trot.
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Elite level breaking is more physically demanding
but at it’s basic level the Foxtrot is probably is harder cardio.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Wrong
I’ve danced
The Foxtrot
The Waltz
The Cha Cha
The merenge
East coast and west coast swing
Salsa
Tango
Rhumba
and Samba
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Get well soon Juan.
Right so you should take the guys who
were the best of their era. Walker was a true five tool player the best RF of his generation a career 140 OPS+ hitter with elite defense. Maybe that doesn’t make your hall but it sure as hell makes mine
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I don't know.
I look at the guys with similar OPS+ in the same era and they don’t scream HOF to me either:
Albert Belle: 143 OPS+
Mike Piazza: 142 OPS+
Jason Giambi: 142 OPS+
Gary Sheffield: 140 OPS+
Brian Giles: 136 OPS+
Ken Griffey Jr.: 135 OPS+
Only Piazza screams HOF, and that’s mostly because he put up his numbers as a catcher.
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But I guess this list
demonstrates the problems when guys like Andre Dawson and Jim Rice make it into the HOF.
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Sheffield, and Griffey
are first circle HOF as is Piazza Albert Belle was well on his way to HOF numbers when he got hurt. Giles was an excellent hitter who will get the Matt Holliday treatment. Giambi was hurt too much but would have got a long look if not for roids
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
This makes me understand why you like Walker.
I have a real hard time with putting Griffey into the HOF. He should have been a HOF player, but I don’t think he is one. In essence, he should be subject to the Dale Murphy effect.
Sheffield doesn’t impress me at all. He had too many mediocre seasons in-between his five or six great seasons.
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no offense but if you don't want an
elite defensive CF with 630 career HR in your HOF you sure as hell shouldn’t allow anyone else in either.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I’m not sure where you get that he was an elite defensive CF.
But, yes, I’m on the fence. Mark McGwire had 583 HRs, and he hit them at a rate almost 50% higher than Griffey. I don’t see him in the HOF either.
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So your HOF has what
15 players in it?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
none since Aaron?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Aaron was overrated
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awful at the Foxtrot
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nine writers agreed with you
Hank Aaron got 97.8% of the vote
Willie Mays got 94.7% I don’t know how anyone could vote against either. You could cry racism and you might be right but Rickey Henderson 94.8 and their justifications were just dumb.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Have you read his
Autobiography? I would totally notch it down to racism.
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You are probably right
But then again Mickey Mantle only got 88% Ted Williams 93.7 and Stan Musial 93.8 didn’t fair any better
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
For every JIm Rice and Andre Dawson, there is a Bobby Grich and Ted Simmons.
I guess I fall on the side of exclusivity. Which players were truly the legends of their time? I’d like that to be the bar, or perhaps just below that.
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How old are you?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
The reason I ask is, because to me
Griffey Jr was the biggest name in baseball in the 90s
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Ken Griffey Jr was definitely a legend in the 90s
at least to grade schoolers like myself
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This is an interesting point.
For a time when I was young in the 80s, Jose Canseco was probably the biggest name in baseball. He and McGwire together were the popular phenomenon, but Canseco was the king. He was referenced in TV and movies quite often for a few years.
It is certainly true that most players who reach that level of fame will end up in the HOF regardless of stats. I wonder how many players were that famous but haven’t made it into the hall. It’s probably very few.
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while he was in seattle he certainly was an elite defender
arenado: it's Rockie for future
No.
Not really.
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12K innings +6.4 dWAR 72 TZ runs
if that’s not elite CF defense, what is?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
One really good season is half of that number.
He averaged .6 dWAR per season in Seattle. Not quite elite.
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Check out Andruw Jones.
That’s elite CF defense numbers from the same period.
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he's not just elite, though
he’s the best fielder at his position of all time
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Petro is right. There is only 1 deserving player in the history of the MLB: Wade Boggs.
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Brett Tanos never had a chance.
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He isn't done yet
When he’s done putting up Wade Boggs type numbers, he’ll still get in…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
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He could get a million hits and it wouldn’t matter. Tanos will have to pass the Boggs test, which only one person has ever passed.
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I'll bet it was Martin Prado
based on what I’ve read on the Braves boards…
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You have a hard time putting Griffy into the HOF?
If that’s the case then I have a hard time taking you seriously. Griffy has a career WAR of 78.6. Only 38 players in history have more, and of those, only the ones listed below are not in the HOF.
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Albert Pujols
Chipper Jones
Jeff Bagwell
And of those, only Bagwell is even eligable.
I'm a little rough on Griffey probably.
From my eyes, his career was a failure. I know that that isn’t really the case, but he had greater than 120 OPS+ in only three of his last 13 seasons. It really taints his record.
People talk about Willie Mays having bad seasons at the end of his career, but he really only had two. Griffey had three bad ones and a handful of mediocre ones. Can a guy get in based on only half of his career? Yes. But I think it brings up a lot of questions.
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sheffield had a hall of fame career
only 32 players in history have more batting runs. while he does also have the worst career fielding runs in history, to the tune of -20 career WAR, he still managed to put up 66 fWAR and 63 rWAR
you must have the smallest hall of fame of anyone i’ve ever discussed this with
arenado: it's Rockie for future
and among players with 10K+ PAs,
he’s 18th in batting runs, between such no-doubt hall of famers as cap anson and chipper jones
arenado: it's Rockie for future
At the same time
Sheffield only cracked the top 5 in MVP voting three times in his 22 season career.
I’m skeptical with all of these run numbers in the steroid and expansion era. This includes WAR, which is based on runs. The talent was diluted, particularly the pitching talent in the 90s, along with the rise of steroids.
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I'm surprised, actually.
So far, you’ve indicated that Boggs is definitely worthy because he has 3000 hits, but Griffey isn’t? I thought we’d moved beyond that kind of logic.
ken griffey jr doesn't scream HOF to you?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
you haven't seen him
break dance.
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by hotdoglady on Jan 4, 2012 3:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
He also can turn a very elequent twinkle when dancing the Foxtrot.
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Get well soon Juan.
for his N64 game alone.
"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"
Luftfeuchtigkeitsregler über alles.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 4, 2012 3:42 PM MST up reply actions
That was a good one, but I think I played his Super Nintendo one more
Although if I recall correctly, that one had fake player names where the N64 one had all the real players
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yes it is
being park and league-adjusted makes it exactly that. if it weren’t for things like wRC+ and OPS+, we’d be looking at straight OPS, straight wOBA and straight wRC, and those are the ones you can’t use across years and eras because environments change
arenado: it's Rockie for future
This doesn’t make any sense to me. If OPS+ is based on environment as represented by the average player, and environments change, then OPS+ between eras are based on different base points.
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This is correct. And it’s really not that hard to figure out.
Larry Walker had a .393 wOBA in 1996, which netted 117 wRC+. His .392 wOBA in 2000 was 107 wRC+. These values can vary by quite a bit from year-to-year.
Now, if two players played during the same era, it’s not a horrible ordeal because they’re being figured against similar environments.
But when you start looking at players that only overlap for short periods of time, the comparison does not work. The run environments, relative to league-average, vary quite a bit.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
Also, you say this:
Evans the best of those 3 127 OPS+ good defender needed 2000 more PA to get 25 more XBH
Evans the best of those 3 127 OPS+ good defender needed 2000 more PA to get 25 more XBH
In 1997, the league average of XBH per team was 484. In 1981 in was 248.
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
1981 was the strike season
may not be the best example
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Oh snap.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
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strange
dawson is the only one i’d consider taking OVER walker. jim rice was a total fenway creation and one of the most overrated players in history, as his chronic aversion to getting on base shows (.352 career OBP? 1 season over 60 walks and 6 with over 100Ks? from a power-hitting corner outfielder? GTFO) evans has a certainly nice career slash line of .272/.370/.470/127 OPS+/129 wRC+, but that’s hardly elite territory for a corner OF, especially when he couldn’t even crack a career .900 OPS at fenway, and is just under .800 on the road? puckett certainly also was good, but .318/.360/.477/124 OPS+/122 wRC+, subpar defense and baserunning, AND he was just as much a metrodome creation as you think walker was a coors creation, .909 OPS at home and .768 on the road 117/82 tOPS+
how are any of those players superior to walker in any way?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
dawson also may have hated getting on base, but like walker he hit for a ton of power, was a very good baserunner, and a great defender
he also has negligible H/R splits. actually looking deeper at dawson i wouldn’t take him either. i’m keeping walker
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I guess what I am seeing is that
I watched all of those guys play. I lived through the eras to know how different baseball was between the 404 XBH per team league average of 1980 and the 484 XBH per team of 1997.
Thus, I can look at a line of .272/.370/.470 and see how it can be as good as .313/.400/.565
Purple Row MLB: An OOTP league for Rowbots
http://ootp.petrocw.com
Leading the Astros into the Future. Go, Go Astros!
I watched some of them play
and am not neccessarily against them being HOF, I am just saying none of them was a better baseball player than Larry Walker was.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
but that's what we have the adjusted numbers for
larry walker’s 142 wRC+ vs puckett’s 122, evans’s 129, rice’s 128, and dawson’s 118 demonstrates that even with the higher offense around the league, walker was still a far better hitter relative to the league than those guys were relative to their leagues
arenado: it's Rockie for future
This.
The point about different offensive environments doesn’t help the case against Walker; in fact, it helps his case if you consider Boggs worthy.
Why are we comparing Walker to Boggs again?? It really makes zero sense to me. Might as well compare pitchers and position players.
Boggs’ game was getting on base. He got on base via hit or walk more than 300 times/season six of seven straight years during his prime. Walker got on base via those avenues more than 200 times per season just seven times. Never made 300, although he came close once.
These players didn’t play the same position, didn’t have the same approach, didn’t have nearly the same skill set.
-C
It’s rough to sit through these games and not have someone that can’t hit a Ball?
magnitude of platoon splits is the connection i believe
as it seems to be petro’s biggest mark against walker
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Good question.
TomCat seems to have been the first to mention it, but then Petro justified his selection with 3010 hits. Since that point I think we’ve been trying to argue that if Boggs deserves to be in, so does Walker.
And to your point about different skill sets, while that is true it doesn’t mean we can’t compare the two. We use WAR for that. It might not be a perfect metric, but it does a good job of assigning value to different types of baseball performance. On a rate basis, these two players had very similar value overall.
I think one interesting thing to look at
is players that have recently played for the Rockies and someone else. For example, Holliday was bashed for his horrible splits here, but now he’s considered a legit hitter. There aren’t a whole lot of players in this set, but Olivo, Ellis, Barmes, etc. all had much worse road production when they were with the Rockies than when they were with other teams.
holliday
2004 and 2005 were the only times he was below league average on the road
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Yes, but his road wRC+ from 2010 and 2011 are much better than his numbers from 2004-2008.
I’m just trying to point out that Rockies hitters have artificially low wRC+ (or OPS+, etc) on the road.
Baseball Prospectus unveils their Rockies Top 11 prospects
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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They say about Arenado
“He’s consistently played in very friendly environments, and that’s not going to change as long as he’s with the Rockies” I was under the impression that Modesto isn’t really a hitters paradise
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
The park it'self isn't
but the league as a whole very much is. Tulsa tends to be a good measuring stick as both the park and league are fairly neutral, at least I think it is?
texas league has been a pitchers league lately
arenado: it's Rockie for future
he is much higher on Matzek and Rosell than BA or Sickels were
which is exactly what I expected
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 10:42 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Matzek is just so nasty
I think him posting a sub 4 BB/9 next year would make our outlook very very bright
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Well, of course
But thats still just a big if. And prediction of his future, from perennial Cy Young candidate to LOOGY to California beach bum are all legitimate predictions right now.
True but 97 from the left side is 97 from the left side
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I wonder if John rocker could hit 97 today
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 11:18 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
97 of what race?
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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by Muzia on Jan 4, 2012 11:19 AM MST up reply actions 5 recs
97 of
whoever happens to be on the 7 train to Shea
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
PRMLB: The Brew Crew
were this Jalopnik
that would be unquestionably the COTD
by Purple Row Troll on Jan 4, 2012 1:27 PM MST up reply actions
I'm higher on Cabrera than Goldstein is...
But I like his list.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
By the way
I just remembered last years list came out the first day I worked at Funkwerks! Damn, thats insane.
If the Nats get Fielder that team starts to get really scary
espcially if Werth bounces back. Fielder, Zimmerman, Werth, and Harper are all 5+ WAR potential players, Espinosa, Rendon, Ramos, Morse are all 3.5-4 WAR type players Strasburg is literally the most talented pitcher I have ever seen, JZim, Lannan, Gonzalez and Detwiler might mean they have a better 1-5 than Philly and Clippard is evil in the pen.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
yeah a team with Mike Stanton, Hanley Ramirez, and Jose Reyes on it could likely finish fourth
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I think they have a legit shot to win it
That rotation they have built is one of the best in the game.
Mets are gonna have an awful Summer.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
Yes they are
Top 4 teams in the East are very very good. I look at the Mets and I see a team that could beat out Houston for the #1 pick.
They'll definitely have a say...
I sure hope we won’t.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
It's gonna be hard to worse than Houston
When they don’t have a single hitter who’s average besides Carlos Lee who gives back all of his value back on the field. The Met at least have a lineup.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Spring and fall aren't looking too good either...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Jan 4, 2012 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
Oh I agree the Marlins are nasty but that lineup I posted above is pretty wicked too
and the Phillys/Braves haven’t gotten notably worse.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I think you are being bullish on Harper and Rendon. They're rookies, and I doubt they combine to have 600 at bats
And I don’t think the Nationals rotation is as good as Philly yet. Once Hamels walks, then yeah they’re better.
They’re a more terrifying team in 2013-2014, though I think a Fielder puts them clearly over the Braves and Marlins this season.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I am looking at 13-14 and beyond
that is a lot of talent
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Does anybody else remember reading an article on Beyond the Boxscore
During the HOF voting last year that proposed instead of using WAR/WAE/WAM, which only has three bins, that a smooth function should be used. I think it was exponential, where your weighted WAR in each season was equal to something like e^(WAR*some constant)
This gives a better approximation of guys who had like, eight seasons of approximately 5 WAR baseball but hardly if ever broke the 6 WAR mark. The reason I think of it is because this system made Larry Walker seem like even more deserving of the hall then the WAR/WAE/WAM method (which I bet had a lot to do with that ungodly good 9 WAR season)
Supporting efforts to create a genetic splice of Jonathan Herrera and Troy Tulowitzki since 2011.
The NewNugs 2011 - Officially back on the Bandwagon
I <3 Johnson
There is only 45 days left until pitchers and catchers report.
47 today, 46 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES. 2011-we shall never see you again. 2012-World Series Champions.
I had to put something up so I can change my sig
45 today, 44 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES. 2011-we shall never see you again. 2012-World Series Champions.
heyman's article is ridiculous
arenado: it's Rockie for future
unfortunately, the main statistic used to evaluate pitchers long term will haunt Jack Morris. but I thought he was good, so whatever.
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 12:31 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
Cole Garner has signed with the Yankees
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 4, 2012 1:28 PM MST via Android app reply actions
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
You told me 2012 would be different!
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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TRAITOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He has went to the dark side
45 today, 44 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES. 2011-we shall never see you again. 2012-World Series Champions.
So this means we need to go get Cano.
45 today, 44 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES. 2011-we shall never see you again. 2012-World Series Champions.
I think this is appropriate for the situation
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Good luck Cole
seriously, couldn’t be further away from Denver, and I hope you destroy everything you see. Yes, like Godzirra.
PS I hate the Yankees too.
by Purple Row Troll on Jan 4, 2012 1:36 PM MST reply actions
that would be a major triumph for theo and hoyer
give them some good short-term flexibility
arenado: it's Rockie for future
would be good for the clubhouse
but I would expect they would be eating 2/3 of that $18mm this year at a minimum and maybe get a A level prospect back. But getting Z out of Chicago is a bonus for them.
I can’t wait to see what happens to the Gatorade machine between him and Guillen
I think the two are friends
But yeah, with Zambrano, you never really know
They are.
Of course, they are still Zambrano and Guillen. In the same clubhouse.
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
A lot is two words. Allot can be one word but it has another meaning.
The only time you really want to use "myself" is when you are the recipient of your own action. Usually you're better off using "me."
Your is not the correct contraction of you are. The word you're looking for is you're.
It's anyway, not anyways.
But if you only remember one thing...
There are no apostrophes in plurals.
fine, you win :P
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
He's going to Cubs to take Zambrano's place
Nice job by Theo, he’s one Garza deal from having an amazing offseason
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
Why did we want Volstad again?
He seems horrible. Not sure I would want him in place of a White or a Hammel.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 4, 2012 7:48 PM MST up reply actions
Just when you think the Marlins couldn't get more out there
Between Guillen, Hanley, Zambrano, and the gigantic thing that lights up for home runs, you could make a reality tv show out of this that pushes garbage like Jersey Shore and the Kardashians aside
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
by MattBerger on Jan 4, 2012 4:27 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I know Showtime's got The Franchise
The Giants were the team covered last year. I don’t know if there’s a second season planned, but the Marlins would be perfect for this.
I remember the show they had on Bonds, I think it was called "The Chase" or something like that
It was quite interesting actually
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
why is that funny?
Am I missing something here?
45 today, 44 tomorrow is how many days remain until Pitchers and Catchers report for Spring Training.
Self taught and falling in love with this game is very easy to do, you can never hate it, and that is something that not one person can take away from anybody. The love of baseball and OUR COLORADO ROCKIES. 2011-we shall never see you again. 2012-World Series Champions.
it's funny because of andrew brackman's career path
which i take it you are not familiar with
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I am guessing it is because of the Major League deal as opposed
to the MiLB deal. It locks up a roster spot for an unproven pitcher
they go out and trade the farm for latos, and sign andrew brackman to a guaranteed deal....
methinks ol’ Walt’s been hitting the sauce this week
arenado: it's Rockie for future
and yet we still can't trade for Todd Frazier.
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
Proud GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds!
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by Muzia on Jan 4, 2012 4:17 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Hockey related, but still incredibly awesome.
Our Flyers SBN blog may have apprehended a criminal!
Some days, I feel like I’ve accidentally entered the Church of Tulowitzki on Baseball Easter.
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And my opinion of Philly phan remains unchanged....
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
Haha, wow.
I'M SORRY I WAS EVER MAD AT YOU, ROCKIES! COME BACK TO ME! I LOVE YOU!!
by prettyinpurple on Jan 4, 2012 4:57 PM MST up reply actions
Semi-OT Dilemma
I do not have cable right now, just internet, and my entertainment needs are served just fine through Hulu, Netflix, etc. HOWEVER, baseball season is coming soon. I’m assuming MLB.tv is subject to some pretty ridiculous blackout laws, and I living in Colorado Springs, so that’s out. $64/month for cable seems like a pretty steep cost just to watch the Rockies, given my income. I’m willing to spring for the cable if it’s my only option (NOT watching baseball isn’t an option), but I wanted to make sure there weren’t any other routes I could take that I didn’t know about. Thanks guys!
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Jan 4, 2012 4:41 PM MST reply actions
I living in Colorado Springs.
by The Toddfather's Goatee on Jan 4, 2012 4:41 PM MST up reply actions
is the Springs definitely blacked out?
that’s lame.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Jan 4, 2012 5:03 PM MST up reply actions
There are other...non"legal" routes.... :P
None that I know of, of course.
And the radio.
I'M SORRY I WAS EVER MAD AT YOU, ROCKIES! COME BACK TO ME! I LOVE YOU!!
by prettyinpurple on Jan 4, 2012 4:54 PM MST up reply actions
Radio is how I do it
when I have no access to television
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
and yes
the Springs would be blacked out
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Can you get the Rockies games on basic cable?
I used to get FSRM and I was only paying somewhere around $25 per month.
If you don't care about Hi-Def
you might be able to get the Rockies on cable for considerably less than $64. Or you might be able to get an introductory rate for Hi-Def for 3 months or 6 months, then drop it at the end of the season before the rate goes up.
I generally agree with you, however, about the price of cable. Comcast keeps giving me crap that I do not want, and charging me more for it. The only reason I keep it is that I call them every six months or so and manage get the rate knocked down a bit – but I still spend too much on it.
by Northsider1964 on Jan 4, 2012 6:23 PM MST up reply actions
JFK's Quote of the Day:
“Baseball changes through the years. It gets milder.” Source: The Babe Ruth Story (Babe Ruth) ~George Herman Ruth
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
For what it's worth, I asked the same poll question last year and only 65% said yes, so Walker's on an upward trend with this mock electorate.
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
How much money do the Rox have left, again?
If we sold Smith for a prospect (Helton’s heir, at long last?), cut Slowey, and hunted around under the sofa cushions, could we afford a winning offer to Jackson or Oswalt?
I don’t like the trade market for SP’s and 2B’s. There aren’t any of the latter, and the former has turned out way too seller-biased for my taste.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 4, 2012 6:39 PM MST reply actions
5-12 million, more if Smith is traded
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
Why the big spread?
Is that because of arbitration or are some of the contracts ambiguous in that way?
by BostonTransplant on Jan 4, 2012 6:58 PM MST up reply actions
They haven't said what the budget is, so I'm assuming between $80-85 million (there's $5 million of the spread)...
$2 million depends on if Casey Blake makes the team
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
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Ah ... well, I thought 85 was pretty much a given
As is Blake making the team. So about $10m. Add in a Smith sale and I think we can make a real offer for Jackson or Oswalt. I think that’s the way to go. If it works out, we can then cut Slowey in ST and have a bit more for a Lidge or something.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 4, 2012 8:24 PM MST up reply actions
I'd rather not add a reliever
I feel comfortable going with a bullpen of Betancourt-Brothers-Belisle-Lindstrom-Reynolds-Rogers-Roenicke. It gives room to move Hammel to the pen if our rotation is full after a DLR comeback and we have guys like Scahill and Gardner to back up. We could even see Bettis pull a Wainwright
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
no one ever had too many relievers
especially since our rotation is such a question mark
arenado: it's Rockie for future
We're going to add a starter before the offseason is done
The Rockies have shown that the bullpen isn’t a priority for them right. They’re only interested in Lidge at their price and haven’t shown interest in anyone else. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they thought Roenicke was their next Belisle
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
And unless he's really shown change, Rogers won't make the rotation
and the lack of options will lead to one last shot in the bullpen
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
the BP is now cold
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
The conventional wisdom is that Oswalt won't come here
because he wants a one-year deal in a park that allows him to put up elite numbers. Not saying the conventional wisdom is wrong, but if I’m O’Dowd I would make a run at him anyway. Oswalt’s always pitched well at Coors, and adding him would make the outlook for this season look a lot different. He’s just the kind of tough SOB this pitching staff could look up to. It’s a long shot, but what do you really have to lose? Worst Oswalt can do is say no.
by Northsider1964 on Jan 4, 2012 6:58 PM MST up reply actions
Oh I'm sure we've made the contact
We’d probably have to sweeten the pot a bit to get him, maybe add a vested second year, whch would be fine with me.
I think I’d rather have E-Jax, but either way, I’m leaning more and more toward that avenue than putting together a massive prospect pile for someone like Floyd or Niemann.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 4, 2012 7:00 PM MST up reply actions
Yes but we sure dropped out of the discussion quickly
If I’m O’Dowd, I would camp on his agent’s door because this is a perfect opportunity to add a player for one season who might transform 2012 from a crapfest to an honest-to-God contention year. The second Oswalt stepped on the field, he would be the most accomplished pitcher ever to wear a Rockies uniform. And at 34, it’s not all that much of a long shot that he puts up a great year. And if he doesn’t, it’s a one-year flyer that won’t cripple the franchise.
by Northsider1964 on Jan 5, 2012 8:03 AM MST up reply actions
Bret Saberhagen?
The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!
HOF
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Hey everyone I'm in Colorado!!
I just passed Fruita….it smells like headless chickens,
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
by Charlie77 on Jan 4, 2012 6:46 PM MST via Android app reply actions
I hope you're not driving
because in this state it is illegal to text and drive
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
I'm not texting..
this is an app.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
by Charlie77 on Jan 4, 2012 7:02 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
i would be interested to hear a judge's take on that
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I just drove past my old house
its selling for $30k less than i sold it.
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
by Charlie77 on Jan 4, 2012 7:08 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
/waves
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
//waves back
Colorado Rockies Players on Twitter
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." ~ Red Barber
PRMLB - Phillies
by Charlie77 on Jan 4, 2012 9:05 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
minor league leaderboards overhauled at fangraphs
sweeeet
arenado: it's Rockie for future

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