Sunday Rockpile: Defining the Rockies plan, volume 1
While I'm in favor of Larry Walker reaching the Hall of Fame and think he's deserving, I actually have few qualms with writers or fans who have limited their ballots to just two names: Tim Raines and Jeff Bagwell. While I think the inclusion of players like Jim Rice makes the small hall vs big hall debate moot (it's a big hall already, get over it, whiners) I think limiting a ballot to the clear cut consensus HOF players and holding off on the others is a defensible stance given the established protocols. It's when writers extend their votes beyond those two and include others but not fairly consider Walker that I take issue.
Enter Troy Renck, who will not pass off field judgment on Bagwell over suspected PED use (which is right,) but feels okay diagnosing Walker with enough lack of passion to keep him out. Renck will vote in Jack Morris, who didn't accumulate the numbers of a prototypical Hall of Famer, but not Walker, who came a lot closer. Lee Smith "lacked a signature moment" played less than Walker and had less of an impact on his teams, but gets in. Renck acknowledges that he has "never covered a better player" than Walker, but for some reason can't vote for him. He should go back to that point and look closer. Walker is a Hall of Fame player, one of the most complete players of our generation, if not ever, as you'd be hard pressed to find a better balance of offense (power, average, baserunning) and defense. What's discouraging to me is that the HOF has become so myopic when it comes to focusing on certain micro-abilities that total package players like Walker tend to get lost.
If you've read the comments here or among other groups of Rockies fans, you know that Giambi's presence on the roster is a divisive issue. I think my pro-Giambi stance is well known, and this article would be more propaganda for that view. I doubt it will do much to convince the anti-Giambi crowd, however.
At any rate, on to why this post is taking so long today. I've been mildly disappointed that there seem to be many that just don't get what Dan O'Dowd's been trying to accomplish this off season with the Rockies. The "O'Dowd doesn't have a plan" meme is not a valid argument and it closes off the opportunity to actually dissect whether the plan that the Rockies have been carrying out to date is worthwhile or not. So, I thought it would be wise to take a step back and clearly define what the team has been up to, and then from there maybe we can actually get back to worthwhile discussion rather than merely repeating empty "Dan the man without a plan" group-think.
Facing O'Dowd over this past year were a couple of competing directions he could go:
Arguments against not trying to compete in 2012:
- The NL West division is weak and winnable for any team
- The Rockies need to maintain a relatively consistent attendance level to continue paying Tulo and Cargo et al... Going into a complete rebuild may compromise the ability to retain star players currently on the roster.
- Those two stars are already in their primes, there should be no season where a team built around them takes itself completely out of the running.
Arguments for a rebuild:
- While NL West competitive, the Rockies as constructed in 2010 and 2011 were not a truly viable WS contender, and there was not enough help coming from a weakened farm to transform them into one. They were falling behind divisional peers, mainly the Diamondbacks, in talent on hand.
- There was a perceived clubhouse psychology issue and lack of effort or accountability from certain players.
Faced with two conflicting team building options, O'Dowd has chosen to abandon going all in for the immediate short-term, but instead focus on surrounding Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez with players that could be ready to contribute in the next year (leaving a chance that the Rockies will do well enough to reach the playoffs in 2012) and entering their career peaks in the next three seasons. It's a plan that focuses on success in an intermediate period rather than a short or long term period, and I think this is what has confused pundits.
I'll break it down a little by season for 2012 and 2013 after the jump, but I've realized that this post needs to be broken up to fully look at the situation the Rockies are in. And I'm already really late, so we'll just have to leave this post here for right now.
2012:
Exorcise the demons. Clean the house. The players traded thus far this winter have been, whether fairly deemed this way or not, the red-headed stepchildren in the organization. Disappointing draft picks, malcontent former closers or Chris Iannetta.
Replace the above with an older veteran free agent player of more or less equivalent talent but also keep the farm standby for the future. Note how each free agent replacement for traded players that the Rockies have added or hope to add this season is signed to either a one or two year contract and has a prospect pair already in the system. Iannetta gets replaced with Ramon Hernandez with Wilin Rosario standing by to take over as soon as prudent, Street gets moved on for a Brad Lidge-type yet to be signed and eventually Rex Brothers. Ian Stewart shuffles off for Casey Blake and in the near future, Nolan Arenado. Finally, Seth Smith will likely get moved with Michael Cuddyer replacing him now, but then Tim Wheeler or maybe Charlie Blackmon or Kent Matthes on down the road.
Cuddyer's hefty three year contract breaks part of the above pattern as the purely temporary fix that Blake and Hernandez seem to be. It's clear that the Rockies have a longer term vision for him as a starting level player, but we'll get to that later in the post. That said, the pattern emerges of a team filling its 2012 roster with professional baton-passers. I actually don't think there's a problem with that, but I'm surprised that others find this plan difficult to see.
The free agent baton-relay model has freed the Rockies to be selective in the players acquired via trade, rather than having to trade for need. Trading for need reduces leverage and will usually pigeonhole a franchise to giving up more prospect value than it gets back in MLB player value. The net result for the Rockies plan this winter has been that more, or at least as much young talent has entered the club then departed it. The drawback that the critics of this method point out is that thus far the players acquired have lacked impact ability. In particular, Tyler Chatwood and Nick Schmidt get dinged as the value of Chris Iannetta and Huston Street has been perceived by fans to be higher than the returned pieces.
The selection process for the Rockies in player trades is also readily apparent, one can see it simply by looking at the highest level of the acquired prospects dating back to the Ubaldo Jimenez trade;
- Drew Pomeranz MLB
- Alex White MLB
- Joe Gardner AA
- Matt McBride AA
- Tyler Chatwood MLB
- Nick Schmidt A+ (but as a reliever close to MLB ready)
- D.J. LeMahieu MLB
- Tyler Colvin MLB
- Chad Tracy AAA
With waiver claims like Andrew Brown or Jamie Hoffman and minor league signings such as Brandon Wood, there's again a fairly obvious picture that emerges of players that require almost no additional investment in development time before they will be expected to contribute at a major league level. From there it's simply a matter of winnowing out the success stories from the disappointments and moving on. The 2012 Rockies team (and Sky Sox and Drillers teams) will be the window of opportunity for marginal MLB players to prove themselves otherwise, for many of the above it might be their last best chance of showing value at the highest level. The Rockies haven't been asking for younger lower level prospects at all, indicating that their focus remains revolving around the two superstars in the middle of their lineup.
Added to a solid veteran core of Tulo, Cargo, Helton, Cuddyer, and those more proven parts of the Rockies rotation and bullpen, it will take only a handful of the near-ready MLB young players (those above and prospects already in the system) proving themselves to push Colorado into contention. It's a situation similar to where the Giants were heading into 2010, and it should be unsurprising if the Rockies do compete in 2012 with only a couple of positive breaks.
2013
Trading away Iannetta and Street starts to make more sense in a two year vision. I think people who don't see a plan for the Rockies are either looking at 2012 only or 2014 and beyond only, and not realizing that it wouldn't take much for the Rockies to be back at the top of the division within a year. Iannetta's $5 million 2013 option is simply an extravagance compared to Ramon Hernandez's $3.2 million due next season if Wilin Rosario would be taking over more of the workload either way. Trading CDI at either midseason point would lose return value (with a voidable option, he'd have been a two month rental both seasons) and eliminate the possibility of getting a Hernandez level replacement/backup.
As for the return for Iannetta, people are focusing on the wrong statistic when questioning Chatwood's value. His walk rate is fine for a 21 year old rushed to the major leagues. Check out the first couple of seasons of pitchers like Clay Buchholz, Homer Bailey, Phil Hughes to name a . Command develops as pitchers age. The larger concern for me is the lack of a punch-out pitch. He needs to do two things, and I'm not sure if the Rockies will teach him either one. One, not be afraid to throw high heat on occasion, and two develop and utilize his change-up more frequently. If he does, he'll start racking up the K's and I'll be a lot more comfortable with the Roy Oswalt comparisons that sometimes get tossed around.
For Street, the Rockies paid a price for an ill-advised extension they signed the former closer to two years ago, once again displaying the symptoms of "playoff brain" that has led the front office to other bad decisions such as not trading Garrett Atkins after 2007 or extending manager Jim Tracy just after the 2009 playoffs. At any rate, trading him this off-season was the best remaining option (trading him last summer might have been better, but that was spilt milk.) Looking at the Francisco Rodriguez return (Danny Herrera and Adrian Rosario) from this past summer leaves me doubting that there will be a better market for Street in July of 2012. At any rate, Street's value to the club is easily replaceable by players such as Chatwood or Chad Bettis as short term bullpen commodities.
At any rate, 2013 is when the Rockies will really start to see returns from their recent moves as well as start to really benefit from internal prospects such as Rosario, Tim Wheeler and Nolan Arenado. By keeping these prospects now, and adding them to more mature acquired players such as Pomeranz, Chatwood and White, the Rockies should be in a strong position relative to the division in 2013. I'll go more into this and what the team has to look forward to in 2014 and beyond probably on Thursday, unless a Smith move takes place before then.
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Nice Analysis
Greatly appreciated
President of Baseball Operations for the PRMLB Atlanta Braves
Agreed completely
we’re definitely on the same page with these moves.
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So happy you wrote this, as that has been bothering me very much.
Fantastic RP.
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Jan 8, 2012 12:07 PM MST via mobile reply actions
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babe's quotes are great
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Nice breakdown
I think a lot of the hangup isn’t so much in the “plan” as much as it is the execution.
Chatwood, for example, is far from a sure thing, as you state in wondering if the Rockies will teach him what he needs to become a successful MLB starter. If you’re sold on his upside, the Iannetta trade works well. If you’re not, that pretty much means “we sold Iannetta off so we didn’t have to pay his 2013 option and/or flexibility” rather than getting a lower prospect or definitive MLB piece. This one is impossible to judge at this juncture, purely because people are so split on what kind of return Chatwood actually is.
The other question mark, again, as you mentioned, is the sheer magnitude of Cuddyer’s contract. I get the impression that Seth Smith is guilty by association in being in the class with Stewart and all them. It’s not a clear impression, as we’re limited to a snippy response from O’Dowd and guessing that he’s part of the problem based on the team’s apparent urgency in pushing him out the door; that said, I really don’t see him as a redundant part, as I’m not sold that Wheeler or Blackmon will be able to replace his production. Which is where Cuddyer fits in, but [insert marginal upgrade criticism], and the whole 3 year thing could be, as our commenters have suggested, to try and transition him to 1B as well once Helton can’t do the job no mo’.
tl;dr the Rockies plan has been pretty clearly this, but some of the moves seem to have vastly undervalued the guys parted with and overvalued Cuddyer’s potential contribution.
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I think the FO was convinced that a situation in which CDI was a starter who was also supposed to be a model for Rosario was going to be a bad one. Since we aren’t inside the clubhouse, I don’t think we’ll ever know exactly why this is the case. The choice of a veteran who was already splitting time at C at this point of his career seems to be a hint at this.
I know moves like this frustrate those who think that clubhouse atmosphere, personalities, and other intangibles are either overrated or nonsense. I tended to agree with this until I watched the Rockies last year. This was a team that most had pegged to win or compete very closely for the NL West crown and be dangerous in the playoffs. Instead, they were terrible. Was it that all the pundits and most of use overrated their talent, or was it that the talented players were unable to maximize their talent due to psychology, work ethics, or personality. The FO seems to be convinced of the latter. We’ll see how that works out for the Rockies and their former players next season.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 8, 2012 12:47 PM MST up reply actions
Or we're just overvaluing the same guys and the FO (and every other FO) knows better
I don’t think there was much of a market for CDI or Street, and the same is looking to be the case with Smith. We may want to think otherwise because we liked them and they were “our” guys, but I think the results of the trades, or lack thereof, say otherwise.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 12:48 PM MST up reply actions
As far as getting more for CDI,
it’s all hypothetical at this point. Maybe there was more out there to be had. Nevertheless, it seems there was a sizable amount of critics of CDI. I know that these critics do not frequent places like Fangraphs, but I think many of them happen to be sitting in major league front offices. I’m not sure how much of a market there was for him among these folks.
CDI is the only one I really expect to be successful in the future. I think he landed in a perfect situation on an AL team with a staff who can teach him to be a better catcher. Although Street is sure to benefit from PetCo, I think his days as a top-notch closer are over.
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by DumbAndNerdy on Jan 8, 2012 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah agree
I highly doubt O’Dowd had a better deal for CDI on the table, but chose the lesser one because he felt bad about it!
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 12:58 PM MST up reply actions
CDl wlll be a better catcher because he won't have to play ln the elght hole all the tlme and wlll be away from Tracy.
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
Yep.
In the AL he gets to be in the nine hole. ;)
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he should’ve batted there for us. With his OBP plus Fowler and CarGos XBH propensity it would’ve been good…
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minus the DUIs, yes, yes I am.
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do you regret inventing the specialized bullpen at all?
what are your thoughts on standing by while your teams had the first major steroid abusers?
how hilariously awkward do you think it will be when CJ wilson and albert pujols are both trying to walk through a door at the same time?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
1. every team had steroid users, mine were just the best.
2. for all other points, I let my rings do the talking.
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touche salesman
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I don't think Tracy mis-played CDI at all
He had plenty of chances, and he’s perfect for an 8-hole hitter. When he lost playing time to Olivo and Torrealba they were superior (at that time) players, and the Rox were red hot. End of last year was just garbage time, and they had probably already decided to trade him.
I just don’t buy that argument at all.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 2:08 PM MST up reply actions
that's what so great about PR... dlfferent oplnlons can be expressed ....Go Rockles !!!
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
rockles?
arenado: it's Rockie for future
sorry...my computer key "eye" key doesn't work any more so thought l could use small"l"....:)
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
wow, that's gotta be rough
my friend’s “a” doesn’t work, he can barely function
arenado: it's Rockie for future
the elght doesn't work...be a whlle before l can afford a new keyboard.
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you could use x
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 8, 2012 3:13 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
I know that these critics do not frequent places like Fangraphs, but I think many of them happen to be sitting in major league front offices
this is something that’s intrigued me for quite some time. we’re almost a decade removed from the first “moneyball” season, and that time has had teams like the A’s, red sox, and rays see a good deal of success with an increased emphasis on statistics. people go and prove that advanced statistics are very effective (just one example among many). yet it really seems as if people in front offices are just completely ignorant of it all, throughout the sport. it’s fascinating, and i’m eager to see what FOs are like in about 5-10 years once more and more stats guys are in higher-ranking jobs
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I don't think most FOs are ignorant of it at all.
I think they just also look at things that we as fans can’t know much about and can’t quantify.
Or numbers can't Quantify
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I agree with this.
I think the advanced statistics have made it to the top of most front offices. I just think they are taken as a part of a balanced approach that doesn’t rely on statistics alone.
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i guess
there’s gotta be something out there that makes ruben amaro want to pay papelbon $50m to pitch 70 innings a year
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I for one did not understand his disdain for Madson and Love for Papelbon
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I'll take a closer look at Cuddyer, Wheeler and Blackmon in the next installment of this.
I think correctly estimating their combined contribution (along with Helton) in 2013 and 2014 is key to understanding the Rockies position on this. What it comes down to is that Colorado is making a $9 million bet (the difference between his contract and Willingham’s) that Cuddyer’s a better player either on the field or through his “intangibles” than his statistical record suggests.
Likewise, I agree with you that it’s too soon to tell on Chatwood. The Rockies again are making a bet that the statistics underestimate his actual projection. In both cases the team relies on its internal scouting process to go against the statistical record, and so long as a) they’re right on this and b) O’Dowd trusts their wisdom for long enough to see the plan to fruition, we’re okay (unlike Al Alburquerque.) It’s just going to be a difficult argument to go at any direction other than “It looks bad on paper but okay on the scouting report, let’s hope the scouting report’s right.”
I'm not happy with the Ianetta trade from the stand point I felt the Angels are a team with valuable middle infielders now and more in the pipeline.
While we were all focused on Prado; to me an opportunity was there to pry loose Aybar or Izturus. Unless Dipoto sees Iannetta as an " anyone but Mathis " stopgap; I believe what leverage DOD has was improperly used. Yes we accquied an arm with MLB potential in Chatwood; Was DOD fixated on Chatwood or could we have closed the circle of terror at 2b then and there?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
As far as I can tell, Aybar and Izturis were pretty much off limits, along with Callaspo.
The Rockies maybe could have pried one away, but losing the leverage of “give me your best offer” would likely have required a prospect piece in addition to Iannetta, and that would be an example of going away from what’s otherwise been a relatively consistent plan by the FO. So you wind up getting Izturis, but it costs maybe Iannetta plus Wheeler or something similar, which puts us back in the boat we’re in with Prado/Smith. I do think it’s fair to wonder if O’Dowd’s possibly too trusting of a scouting and development program that produced all of the traded underachievers in the first place to have sufficiently changed course with the likes of Wheeler, Rosario, et al.
While Ive read that Dipoto plans to sign Aybar and Izturis for 4 and three years respectively; I've understood those to be cost control moves to peg their value.
By doing so he lowers the value of his AAA and AA middle infield prospects who I understand grade better than Rutledge now. I would not have given Wheeler up to get Izturis; I might have given up someone lower down the food chain.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
That Renck ballot frustrates me soooo much.
For the beat writer to leave out a superior player THAT HE COVERED is asinine. Lee Smith wasn’t even an elite reliever and Jack Morris was a good pitcher but not an elite one either.
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Lee Smith is just a mystery to me
I don’t get why everyone is in love with him.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 12:57 PM MST up reply actions
it's the saves
which makes him a great example of the flaws with that statistic
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Huston Street strongly disagrees with this comment.
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Well, Huston has gotten very wealthy on that misconception
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Maybe Renck doesn't like Walker and this is his revenge?
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Jack Morris made it because, for me, he was Curt Schilling before Curt Schilling
i don’t even know where to begin with this
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Jack Morris is not in my Hall of Fame.
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95 ERA-, 97 FIP-
sigh
arenado: it's Rockie for future
He only sucked when the team was WAY AHEAD, come on
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 8, 2012 7:35 PM MST up reply actions
at least he understands this:
Alan Trammell: Can’t vote for Larkin without voting for Trammell.
but then THIS is the next sentence?!?
Lee Smith lacked the signature moment and I really struggled with his inclusion. But he retired as the all-time saves leader.
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Great piece
The only thing I would take issue with is I’m not convinced the D’backs are going to be anything like an NL West dynasty. I whole lot of guys played out of their heads for them last year, and they only had one significant injury all year (and none to their SPs). Most of the time, in an division without a team that’s dominant in talent level, the team that keeps its pitchers healthy the best wins. That was the Giants two years ago, the D’backs last year. Who knows, it could easily be us next.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 12:55 PM MST reply actions
I'm really not sure about the Diamondbacks either,
Their budgetary situation will make it more difficult for them to maintain success than it would be for the Dodgers or Giants, but they do have better minor league talent to make it a stronger possibility. I guess I’m just saying that until the Dodgers ownership situation gets resolved and we have a better understanding of where LA is heading, I think the D-backs have the highest divisional likelihood of having lasting 2012-2017 success right now. I think the Rockies have taken steps to bridge that future talent gap, and depending on how the coming season plays out with key young players like Pomeranz, Arenado and Rosario, could pass AZ in that outlook.
Uh-huh. Yeah that sounds about right.
I do think that most of the D’backs prospect depth is in starting pitching, which is great and all, being the most important position, but most of their “out of their heads” performances in 2011 were from position players and relievers. I also think they’re going to regret the Parker-Cahill trade, quite possibly as soon as this year (Cahill has been awful in pitchers’ parks lately).
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 2:13 PM MST up reply actions
Just going by the eyeball test on their position players, they aren't that bad off.
C: Montero – legit
1B: Goldschmidt – legit
2B: Hill – sketchy
SS: Bloomquist/Drew – surprisingly very sketchy
3B: Roberts – sketchy, but with potentially more legit options, Matt Davidson particularly, approaching.
LF: Kubel – sketchy, but with more talent (Eaton, Pollack) on the way
CF: Young – relatively legit, either of the above two could also take over here.
RF: Upton – legit
I see shakiness in the middle infield, but their corners are either solid or have something decent to hope for close to the majors. It’s going to be a matter of whether the prospects work out or not, but filling 6 of 8 lineup slots is plenty with the pitching they’re developing.
Any team with an abstract expressionist is a winner in my book.
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it was us in 2009
arenado: it's Rockie for future
good writeup RG
insightful and explanatory
arenado: it's Rockie for future
so uh
how about that broncos-steelers game
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Meh.
Villareal vs. Valencia and Espanyol vs. Barca were great. Espanyol pulled off a late equalizer.
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That was the most fun I've had in ages.
by holly96 on Jan 8, 2012 6:26 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I was going crazy.
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Me too.
Jumped around screaming in my living room. One of my slippers flew off and I couldn’t find it at first.
That's good!
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
LOL. I'm pretty sure my Charger fan neighbors hate me
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
best game slnce 2007...Rocktober and MlleHlgh Maglc ( just preend those "l's are smaller) :)
In all things, it is better to hope than despair.
I dunno the SpillySlam game always rates up there for me....
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
i'm really going to miss him
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6279085&c_id=mlb
arenado: it's Rockie for future
God that video is depressing
Hawpe, Ubaldo, Spilly …..gone…..
Jason Hammel : Feared Slugger was /2011'd
BigGiantHead of the Ubaldo Lover's Club;OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
Carlos Cycle was up there too
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JFK
yeah i'm no tebow lover,
or even fan really, but today was a blast to watch
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Go Broncos!
Road might end at New England next week, but this was huge for the team
It was a very interesting game...
I just couldn’t help feeling depressed and jealous after they won and started celebrating.
It’s been almost five years since Rockies fans got to see a playoff win at home.
And I lost a bet too, so I guess I’m grumpy.
But yes, a very interesting game.
I'M SORRY I WAS EVER MAD AT YOU, ROCKIES! COME BACK TO ME! I LOVE YOU!!
by prettyinpurple on Jan 8, 2012 7:21 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
I'm happy for Champ Bailey
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that would be rather terrifying
arenado: it's Rockie for future
This is a good narrative for what the team might be doing
but, among other things that I’ll articulate as I read future installments, I have one problem: to the extent that the team is waiting for prospects at 2B, 3B, and LF, their actions this off-season do not constitute a distinct plan outside of normal business in baseball or the way that they’ve been operating for several years.
For 2B and 3B next year, there are a variety of veteran options: Wood, Blake, Nelson, EY2, LeMahieu, maybe Field and Herrera depending on how bad things go. The options exist as holdovers until Arenado and a second base prospect (Rutledge?) are ready from 2012-2014. That is essentially the same as the team has done for years: wait for Stewart, wait for Nix, Nelson, EY2, etc. Arenado may be a much better bet than Stewart, but it’s the same concept.
This isn’t a bad strategy; it’s a necessary part of baseball life. In particular, if Blake is healthy he could be a great bridge veteran (1 year, low cost deal).
The other day I said that there may be plans, but there isn’t a coherent, single plan. If the majority of what the team did this off-season centered around the above, then they’d be moving in a single direction. But the Cuddyer signing complicates this. It does so without – in my mind – doing anything to move the team toward the playoffs because the only hope for the playoffs requires surprising development from the young pitching or acquiring a better 2-3 starter. The team generally hasn’t been into bringing in expensive veterans on long-term deals, even if it was to put them over the top, which makes this seem like largely a character signing. For previously explained reasons, even if Cuddyer does move to 1B, he’ll only be there for one full year (2014) and it is quite possible that his OF play will sap most of his value at the plate).
The other facet is clearing house – ditching CDI, Street, etc. – and while the Cuddyer signing fits into the character plan, it doesn’t really appear to fit with the team’s competitive plan, which appears to be holding spots until prospects like Arenado are ready.
So, I guess so far I see two distinct plans: character and competition.
Those plans are not distinct to the Rockies' FO.
They see character as a part of competitiveness. They blame much of last year on a lack of character among their young talent. They have said that explicitly, many times. What you see as two different plans are one for the FO.
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If it still matters, see my response to RG below
But I’m not entirely discounting not-quantifiable things that the FO might be doing. I just don’t care about “character” because it’s so illusory in identifying, obtaining and judging.
One non- or semi-quantifiable thing that the FO might be doing is generating position stability (at least for 2012), which I think is a hugely important part of being able to prepare and play. If they don’t like platoons, then an OF of Cargo-Fowler-Cuddyer creates a lot more stability.
However, that proposition is somewhat belied by the belief that Cuddyer will transition to first base starting in 2013, or before if Helton is hurt. That would leave two positions in flux: 1B and RF. It will also be undercut if Cuddyer proves incapable of competent OF defense in 2013, necessitating more 1B time if Todd is injured. So, the sentiment may be there, but the player acquired to execute it probably doesn’t fit the mold.
Also, second base remains a position largely in flux (third gets a pass because of waiting for Arenado).
The plan is something separate from what any of us will see as the direction of the moves.
So you see two distinct directions with the moves that O’Dowd and the front office are making because you see the character and competition aspects as being mutually exclusive and you’re projecting your view on the front office’s perspective. Since the front office sees competition and character as inclusive, sees Cuddyer as part of a competitive piece through 2014, their plan is cohesive and singular.
I will get more into this myself, and as I responded to Andrew Martin above, you might not be wrong, but from the team’s perspective, there’s a pretty clear unified direction that both Cuddyer and Giambi fit into despite them being a different category of players than the Pomeranz/Chatwood/Lemahieu type of young additions.
I wanted to get into this more last night but ran out of time...
Whether I’m projecting my own view on to the team is clear: I am projecting my own view, backed by the some stats and objective history that we’ve all witnessed. We all do that because, you know, we’re not standing next to DO’D every day; we’re not even Troy Renck.
Here are some distinct patterns to the team’s behavior that I see:
1. Pursuing character.
2. Growing internal talent.
3. Pursuing bridge veterans.
4. Putting together .500-level talent to start he year (laudable).
Here are some things that lead me to believe those patterns aren’t a coherent plan:
1. Signing Cuddyer to a three year deal.
2. Choosing (and I do mean choosing) not to acquire a definitive starter for 2B.
3. Acquiring marginal talent to fill out the rotation.
4. Allowing veterans (marginal and talented) to take spots that could be filled by younger players with higher ceilings.
Number four could be illustrated (not saying this is right or wrong) by dumping Street, elevating Betancourt, and keeping Brothers as a set-up option (Kimbrel, Melancon, Bailey and many others have had success with fewer prior ML IP). Normally the Street trade would connote a move toward youth. Obviously having Betancourt is a little different, but it runs contrary to the idea of allowing youth to step up. Same with signing Ramon Hernandez instead of a less clear-cut starter. Again, not saying it’s a bad move, but saying it sends mix signals.
I guess the way to sum it up would be that the team appears to have one foot in, one foot out on what they’re doing (youth vs. contention). They can have both, but they need to tread carefully so as not to stunt development, and they need to allocate resources wisely. Obviously, I see the Cuddyer signing as a poor allocation of a scarce resource for this team (cash) when there are more serious long-term problems than acquiring a slight above-average RH outfielder at an open market price.
I like the plan if...
It means we have new talent to give us a shot in 2012.
But is Casey Blake healthy? His neck surgery was supposed to sideline him past spring training when I first read about it.
Will LeMaheu be good enough to hold down the 2B job both on offense and defense? I read he has trouble turning the DP. And he’s a singles hitting rookie, which still beats what we had last year at the position, maybe.
Do we HAVE to trade Smith? If he doesn’t command trade value, and Dex does, then why not trade Dex and move Cargo to CF with Seth in
left? Or just keep Smith as a supersub OF and PH?
Our rotation is a mess until we get DLR back and Nicasio is back to where he was. Pom could be a ROY but it’s not something to count on.
Separately, it was a thrilling walk off homerun by Tebow today, and I hope certain Rockies were watching and learn from him, lol. This is my first post here, and I hope you liked it.
by The Fanimal on Jan 8, 2012 8:05 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
Fowler has a spot in the lineup. Smith doesn’t. If we kept him, it would be as a fourth outfielder. There would be some benefit to this, particularly if Fowler has another slow start, but I think the FO wants to get what they can for him now. If his value is two right now, it will be zero after the being a bench player for a half season.
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if we can't get that much for Smith now...
then maybe he has more value in our dugout than as a trade chip right now. I could see Smith still getting 300+ ABs and contributing key pinch hits in his new role. Plus, injuries and slumps do happen, and Smith could start for a hurt/struggling OF or when Cuddyer is covering for Helton at 1st or Blake/whomever at 3rd. Smith, in other words, would still get plenty of playing time if we kept him, and that might be worth more than yet another 4th/5th starter we could get for him in trade.
by The Fanimal on Jan 8, 2012 8:44 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
Welcome!
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pretty much what petro said
also the org wants to protect cargo’s knees
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Thanks...
Cargo has knee issues? I know about his wrists, but never knew he had knees that needed protecting.
by The Fanimal on Jan 8, 2012 8:47 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
he doesn't have knee issues (that we know about)
CF is just worse for the knees than the corner spots, and a healthy cargo is a productive cargo
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I agree...
but can’t help but think that Cargo could be the best CF in the game if given the job. He’s got the potential to be this decade’s “Ken Griffey Jr.” if he played center, and I mean the healthy young Grif, not the one who battled injuries all the time in Cincy.
I guess we’ll just have to accept Cargo being this decade’s Barry Bonds instead….and I mean the swift naturally athletic Bonds from his Pittsburgh and early SF days, not the artificial juiced up Barry from later. ;)
by The Fanimal on Jan 8, 2012 8:57 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions
I'll take a 40-40 guy
regardless of the position he playes
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
Welcome aboard
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
well here's something i didn't see coming:
https://twitter.com/#!/Ken_Rosenthal/statuses/156217881208700928
arenado: it's Rockie for future
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 8, 2012 8:46 PM MST up reply actions
Great
They need the pitching and he might be a good fit for that quirky ballpark.
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
good defense, too
arenado: it's Rockie for future
good for Cook.
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by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 8, 2012 8:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Minor league deal.
… Dang.
@DylanZable
by CentralCaliRox on Jan 9, 2012 12:44 AM MST up reply actions
I haven't jumped into the discussion with deacs and others
over whether or not O’Dowd has a plan. But I have found that conversation to be rather interesting, and don’t feel that it’s been littered with “group-think” that has detracted from more worthwhile discussions.
My biggest criticism of O’Dowd this offseason is very plain and simple: At season’s end, he said obtaining a proven, middle-of-the-rotation starter would be an offseason priority, because he needed to solidify the rotation and keep his overworked bullpen from burning to the ground by midseason. He either changed his mind during the winter, or just found that he had badly miscalculated the going rate for such a pitcher. I suspect it is the latter – and if so, what am I supposed to make of that? This is what the man does for a living. He should know that decent starting pitching is never going to be found in the bargain bin.
Does O’Dowd have a plan or not? I don’t know, nor have a tried to speculate on the issue. But I think it was Mike Tyson who said, “Everybody’s got a plan until they get hit.” In baseball, everybody’s got a plan until their pen is up and throwing in the 3rd inning, for the 4th time this week. At that point your season is a train wreck, whether you were planning to contend, rebuild, or just jog in place for a year.
And if O'Dowd comes through with a quailty addition
it will change my view on whether this has been a successful offseason. No goalpost-moving here.
But O’Dowd’s the one who said it was a priority. If I can’t move the goalpost, he shouldn’t be able to either.
by Northsider1964 on Jan 8, 2012 9:32 PM MST up reply actions
Sure, if come spring training or start of season there are no other decent SP acquisitions, then judge.
It just doesn’t seem necessary to judge quite yet.
There are still several pretty good SP's out there definitely available
There’s 2 or 3 FA’s (Jackson, Oswalt, Kuroda), Garza, Floyd, one of the Rays’ guys, Jurrjens, and quite possibly the A’s aren’t done disassembling. That’s a lot. And by my count, there are relatively few teams still looking for SP’s who also have money to spend. Quite a few who don’t have money to spend, of course, and they’ll grab the Maholms and Millwoods (and I guess Cooks) of the world. Certainly the O’s are competitors for the big boys, as are the Blue Jays. Maybe the Tigers. Possibly the Mets but they have nothing to sell. I’m sure there are more. But still, I like the chances of the prices going down on both the FA’s and trade targets, and O’Dowd pouncing on one. I’ve still got my money on Gavin Floyd, but the free agents are looking more and more intriguing as teams start finishing their off season spending.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 9:42 PM MST up reply actions
interesting
My biggest criticism of O’Dowd this offseason is very plain and simple: At season’s end, he said obtaining a proven, middle-of-the-rotation starter would be an offseason priority, because he needed to solidify the rotation and keep his overworked bullpen from burning to the ground by midseason. He either changed his mind during the winter, or just found that he had badly miscalculated the going rate for such a pitcher. I suspect it is the latter – and if so, what am I supposed to make of that? This is what the man does for a living. He should know that decent starting pitching is never going to be found in the bargain bin.
i was reading on DRaysBay today, and several posters there seem to be suspicious of tampa’s quiet offseason. additionally, they seemed supportive of a rumor that smith goes to tampa for presumably niemann, and then is flipped to cincinatti for ryan hanigan. cincinatti probably still covets smith, but their willingness to deal hanigan may be suspect. but it sounds like a deal that would work for all involved. or even if tampa doesn’t flip him, smith would be an interesting acquisition for them, as he’s basically matt joyce, but if they also move upton, then their outfield is much less crowded and a smith/jennings/joyce/zobrist OF could be very productive. smith for niemann very well could happen
arenado: it's Rockie for future
I'm thinking the Rays are waiting on Fielder's decision right now
Reason being if he ends up in either Seattle or Washington, there’s a pretty decent 1B there (especially in DC) they could trade for. LaRouche would be a more or less perfect fit in Tampa. On the other hand, the Nat’s rotation is full and all the Rays have to sell is pitching, but it still could be the plan.
They clearly have to trade one of their starters. Otherwise some proven young veteran arm is going to end up in their bullpen, totally destroying his value, or worse yet in AAA. Everyone knows it too, but (I suspect) no one really wants Wade Davis for more than a B prospect. Still, it’s gonna happen with some team. Has to. Smith and a hitting prospect for Niemann is a fair trade.
by BostonTransplant on Jan 8, 2012 9:30 PM MST up reply actions
Adam Laroche is one of the most useless players to deal for
You have no clue what he’s going to give you and because he’s a first baseman, you practically have to guarantee him a starting spot. The Rays would be better off with Kotchmann than LaRoche, though if he is released the Rays could pick him up. I thought he might go to the Cubs if they didn’t get Rizzo, but he’s their starting first baseman now.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
remember though, adam is the good laroche
he’s a much better bet than kotchman, who likely won’t be able to produce going forward like he did in 2011
arenado: it's Rockie for future
LaRoche had shoulder surgery and some major strikeout problems before
Meanwhile Kotchman is healthy and is a player people have been waiting to break out for years. It’s not like he came out of nowhere. If I saw that LaRoche hasn’t been hampered by post surgery in Spring Training, it’s closer, but LaRoche is way more of a wildcard right now than Kotchman.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
While I don't expect LaRoche's 2012 to be as poor as his 2011
He hasn’t been a great player for most of his career, and the shoulder issues and his terrible play in limited appearances in 2011, his age 31 season, would suggest the beginning of a decline
probably, yeah
but kotchman’s success in 2011 was from a BABIP 50 points higher than his career mark, with no real change in peripherals. he’s not likely to sustain that
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Agreed on that note
That season truly came out of nowhere…though he was once a top prospect, maybe he’s a late bloomer?
I don't think the Rays should deal Upton
That 3 way deal makes sense. I bet the deal fell apart when the Reds decided they needed to deal Grandal for a starting pitcher, as it seems to be a deal that fell apart quite some time ago
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
that's what's implied on MLBTR
but smith for niemann by itself is still not bad
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Yeah, it's actually very equal when it comes to straight up value in fWAR
The only question is if Smith can fulfill a need for Tampa Bay
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
I believe he would
Desmond Jennings and BJ Upton (I keep waiting for the guy to break out…) have two OF spots locked down, and as far as I can think of, they don’t have anyone better than Sam Fuld behind them, though Brandon Guyer is a decent looking prospect. A Smith/Guyer platoon might work them maybe?
joyce is the every day RF
and zobrist, and guyer
arenado: it's Rockie for future
Shouldn't Zobrist be their second baseman?
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
yes
but he’s capable of playing every position except P and C
arenado: it's Rockie for future
And he might
yet be the emergency C
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
JFK
i can't wait to draft him higher than i should when fantasy starts up again
arenado: it's Rockie for future
The FO's goals in that department did shift a bit with Nicasio's quicker than expected recovery,
and they were fairly up front with that as the story developed. The goalpost last I read shifted to an impact starter, presumably one who’s got a high likelihood of quality mid-rotation value but perhaps a smaller likelihood of lasting the entire season. That said, this remains an unfilled part of what was the off-season plan, as does 2B, and I’m guessing that one of those two priorities ultimately gets an unsatisfactory solution for most fans. The question will then become how much of this part of the plan did the FO actually intend on fulfilling. If you’ve ever been on a project where the cost estimates are variable (take an opera production, for instance) you’ll know that sometimes the hoped for vision gets downsized by circumstances outside your control. A good management team will be able to improvise a feasible compromise to keep the overall project on track.
I think going into the offseason given those statements you mention, the FO may have had unrealistic expectations with the pitching market’s willingness to come to Denver, and saw Cuddyer as more of the unlikely hope. Right now, it’s just a matter of seeing how the final bargaining/compromising plays out, but without knowing how much of the team’s stated wish list the Rockies actually expected to fill with proven players, it would be difficult to judge them by this “didn’t meet their own goals” standard.
The major problem of this offseason was that second base wasn't even supposed to be much of an issue until Ellis ditched
The goalpost last I read shifted to an impact starter, presumably one who’s got a high likelihood of quality mid-rotation value but perhaps a smaller likelihood of lasting the entire season
His name is Brandon McCarthy, he’s under control for 1 year and I think we can deal for him without including Seth Smith or Tim Wheeler.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
he's also got an awesome twitter account
arenado: it's Rockie for future
If the front office had unrealistic expectations about what it would take to acquire quality pitching
Then they need to be accountable for having unrealistic expectations about what it would take to acquire quality pitching. Maybe Jim Tracy just had unrealistic expectations about the abilities of Ty Wigginton and Elizier Alphonso and Jonny Herrera to help the team win baseball games – but nobody gives him a free pass, nor should they. If you’re not even allowed to hold O’Dowd accountable for the statements that come out of his own mouth, or expect him to have a firm grasp of the market for starting pitching, then he leads a more charmed existence than any executive in the history of Major League Baseball.
by Northsider1964 on Jan 9, 2012 7:49 AM MST up reply actions
"he leads a more charmed existence than any executive in the history of Major League Baseball."
This seems a bit hyperbolic. Second, I’m not saying that O’Dowd shouldn’t be held accountable, my goal is always to get a fair accounting, based on as much objective information as possible, and not just go off of biased fan interpretations of statements he made four months ago. He said something and you seem to have had a very specific expectation for what he meant by that, and you also seem to have a very rigid policy that changing circumstances, such as Nicasio’s health or the shifting market can’t impact a GM’s decision making process and allow them to adjust with the new information. These are GM’s, not prophets, we can’t expect them to know everything in advance.
We can't always expect opponent GM's to be reasonable either..
Like asking for the moon in exchange for a backup 2B.
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Nicasio's recovery is a great story, and I wish him all the success in the world
But even if his recovery is complete and he picks up right where he left off, he’s still a talented guy with a good fastball and no real track record at the MLB level. I didn’t start thinking the Rockies needed starting pitching help the day Nicasio got hurt. So while I’m obviously thrilled to hear about his recovery, it doesn’t change the Rockies’ starting pitching outlook from where it stood before the injury even took place.
by Northsider1964 on Jan 9, 2012 8:49 AM MST up reply actions
i just moved to colorado
this piece was an excellent primer for me, since it will be the first time im close to a mlb team. thanks!
Welcome aboard
Both toe Purple Row and to Colorado. I hope you get to know the team and stick around the blog because I know you won’t want to leave the state. Because I’m curious, where about in Colorado did you move to?
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
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