Sunday Rockpile: Carlos Gonzalez feeling 100% healthy, but only 90% ready to crash into more walls
by Rox Girl on Feb 12, 2012 6:59 AM MST
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El Universal in Venezuela caught up with the Rockies outfielder, who says he'll take more precaution when it comes to chasing down balls hit to the outfield this year:
"Espero que este año me fije un poco más en cómo va el score y si vale la pena chocar contra la pared para atrapar un elevado"
Translation: "I hope to be more aware of the game's score this year if I'm chasing down a fly-ball." Cargo goes on to state that sometimes it's just really hard to stop when his instincts take over. At any rate, the Rockies wish to see less of the scene depicted to the right in 2012.
*******
Troy Renck goes on the record in basic agreement with the club's stance regarding added team leadership being a good thing, and not down the road of David Schoenfield (as Brian linked in yesterday's Rockpile) or others in the SABR school that say talent is the only thing that matters, and will be the only thing that matters if the Rockies happen to win in 2012. Don't forget that according to many of these writers, the Rockies had the talent last season too, they were widely projected to win the division (even by Schoenfield himself,) despite having the post-hoc cherry picked duds such as Ty Wigginton, Jose Lopez and Esmil Rogers on the roster. It's in fact common for most contending teams to have two to three weak links like that going into a season. The Cardinals approached 2011 with ultimately unsuccessful players like Tyler Greene and Ryan Franklin supposed to play significant parts but still overcame that and put together a team by the end of the season capable of winning a World Series.
This season, the Rockies are trying to put together both the talent and the character they see as necessary to division winners in September and October rather than in February and March, and while O'Dowd's focusing on the latter to the press, fans shouldn't be naive that he's also making sure the leadership players that he's collecting also have the talent to help the Rockies become contenders. These aren't empty rah-rah types, but players that have generally been at least league average contributors throughout their careers.
I just have an issue when writers such as Schoenfield completely disregard that aspects besides what can be seen on a stat-sheet can impact a team. Unbiased analysis of these aspects might be impossible, but don't try to pretend they don't exist, and don't be so dismissive of GM's that do. That said, we can be critical when it appears that a GM such as O'Dowd overvalues leadership or character (such as appears to be the case with the Cuddyer contract) but that would be different from saying that the leadership or character of a Cuddyer will have no impact whatsoever. Rockies fans have enough February/March projected division winning trophies in their case to tell us that talent isn't the only thing that's important.
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The Renck piece also has good news on Jorge De La Rosa being ahead of schedule in his recovery, but the Rockies won't rush the starter back. This is positive as there's typically a post-surgery re-adjustment phase for most pitchers who've undergone a season long rehab process. The Rockies rotation depth will allow them the luxury of not forcing JDLR back when he won't be as effective.
Patrick Saunders has more on the state of the Rockies rotation, with the team looking for an ace to emerge at some point during the season. While much has been made of O'Dowd's disappointment in Jhoulys Chacin's conditioning, the GM does have some positive thoughts on another young pitcher capable of eventually filling that ace role:
"When I saw Drew Pomeranz at the Fan Fest I about died," O'Dowd said. "He was a little rolly; now he looks like a man."
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And they got Jesus Montero to show up too!
by Shoemaker on Feb 12, 2012 8:27 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Well, he is theoretically a catcher...
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Feb 12, 2012 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
Leadership ...
Yes, it is difficult to quantify, and yes, it takes many forms – from day-to-day performance on and off the field to holding teammates to account. I am reminded of one of the greatest displays of leadership I ever witnessed:
Spring training in Florida in 2005 … the year after the Red Sox won their first World Series in nearly 100 years. The Sox players were taking BP … the team was loose …Many and Ortiz were goofing around … then really young Hanley Ramirez was flashing the skills that screamed “Ballplayer.”
After the session in the cage was over, Varitek jogs out to the mound and starts gathering up the balls scattered about. You would think by this action he was a rookie who knew his place, but instead he was the captain of a World Series team, leading by example.
Anyone who ever played organized sports knows the value of leadership, whether from a coach or teammate.
I don’t think anyone could claim leadership and character don’t matter. I do think it is fair, however, to question a GM who really seems to focus on that trait, especially when it appears he is singling out guys for not meeting the standard.
Acknowledging the players brought in are indeed solid ballplayers with skills that should contribute to a winning team provided they stay healthy, there is little question that this team will need improved performances from their younger players too. In Tulo and Cargo this actually means just staying healthy, but for others, especially Fowler & Chacin and whichever of the young pitchers and utility players/backups earn a spot, it means approaching the day-to-day stuff as a professional, working always to get better.
This allows the talent to play up. I just think O’Dowd has a tendency to swing the pendulum too wildly at times. Sometimes it seems as though he completely scraps one plan in favor of another. And it is hard to argue that at this point in time, Stewart, Iannetta, Smith and perhaps to a lesser extent Ubaldo are all singled out as the source of the problem. Not Tracy. Not the veteran leaders on this teams. These four players. There is an element of addition by subtraction, and I think it bears watching how this club holds up when times get tough as they always do at some point during the season.
Winning builds clubhouse culture … we know this. But does clubhouse culture also lead to winning? We’ll see.
It's a misnomer to say that he's "singling out" four players when two thirds of the team has turned over from Opening Day 2011.
Even four representing quite a chunk itself, and that’s not including two or three others that have been shipped off (Street, Hammel and Wigginton) who seem to be by default not having that leadership trait O’Dowd’s looking for. The Hammel for Guthrie trade is a clear example of this, actually, as the players themselves might not have much true talent difference, but O’Dowd’s been playing up Guthrie’s intangibles on the mound as being more beneficial to the team than Hammel’s.
Leaving Tracy aside (the point I agree with,) what I don’t get with your argument is that it seems to be making a case that the character issues on a losing team have to be a “whole team” issue and that one or four can’t be bad apples, that it’s either all or none are bad. I’d disagree with this. In fact, I doubt that there were so many problem children as O’Dowd has shipped out, but apparent;y he feels the large turnover is necessary to change the clubhouse attitude. I’d also disagree that he’s not sending a message to the retained veterans, as I actually think that there may be an underlying dig on Helton’s own leadership with the acquisitions of so many 30 plus year olds.
I didn't mean to imply that only those four players ...
… were the problem. I just see them as most indicative of the problem. You are right that others were shipped out too, but with Street it was more of a salary-clearing move than a leadership one, especially given that we have betancourt in tow.
And you are right to point out that Guthrie/Hammel swap is probably more of the same, so throw him in there too. Wigginton was just a lousy move all around.
I disagree about the “dig on Helton’s leadership” … he is what he is. He leads by example. I think the fact that the guys brought in were advanced in years had as much to do with their being available at5 a price we could afford and also not blocking our younger players in Arenado, rosario and the stable of young pitchers.
In sum, I don’t think we disagree … I am merely pointing out that when a GM makes such an issue of character in his overhaul of the roster, it is reasonable to point out that there is another view: Talent wins, and clubhouse cohesion follows therefrom. Does it work the other way around? Perhaps, but much more difficult to quantify. If the Rox lose 10 of their first 15 games, then have we may get to witness and evaluate whether the character issue leads to a turnaround. For my part, I hope the guys stay healthy and their performance on the field lives up to expectations based on what they have done in the past, and this in turn leads to a winning atmosphere.
We should probably define what we mean by "talent"
There are several definitions being used, it seems, that are not the same. It’s possible to use the term pretty expansively — as I suspect you are doing — to mean “good players.” Guys that make teams better, in other words. Guys that are expensive on the market, in either dollars or prospects. And I certainly agree those guys “win”. But here’s the thing: There’s often a big element of “intangibles” built in there. That’s WHY, to some degree, they make you better and are expensive. Pujols wouldn’t be worth anywhere near $220 million if he weren’t a great clubhouse guy on top of his hitting ability.
The other, more narrow definition of “God-given physical ability … hand-eye coordination, strong throwing arm, etc…” is less often used. And here I do not think you can so loosely say “talent wins.” It clearly doesn’t.
by BostonTransplant on Feb 12, 2012 10:40 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't agree ...
Talent for me is wholly separate from “intangibles” … I don’t disagree that a player who has both (as in Pujols) is deemed to be worth more on the open market, but plenty of guys (e.g., ARod) land huge contracts even though they are known for not being great clubhouse guys … why? Talent.
by Traindogger on Feb 12, 2012 10:51 AM MST up reply actions
True but more than a few people in STL think Albert forced Colby and Brendan Ryan off the team
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
really?
i thought that was larussa
Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort
TLR was viewed as the driving force, but many others think
that Albert(the classic won’t suffer fools type) was the one who set the tone in the clubhouse, and had called Rasmus out.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
I basically agree, but we're not in the clubhouse
This was not a clubhouse that talked a lot to the press over the years about dirty laundry. For all we know, Stewart, Smith, and Iannetta pouted all year and were horrible to be around. We have nothing to go on except body language, which isn’t much, but let’s just say it wouldn’t surprise me a bit if any or all of those three punched their ticket out of town by their own behavior. The one piece of circumstantial evidence we have, at least for Smith and CDI, was the poor response we got when we shopped them. Players on other teams know these things.
But as I say, who the heck knows. At some level you just have to trust the guys that do know.
by BostonTransplant on Feb 12, 2012 8:48 AM MST up reply actions
Short of 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th of the 7th game of the WS with the Rox up one and a guy on base ...
I can safely tell Cargo to just stay away from fences. Period.
by BostonTransplant on Feb 12, 2012 8:49 AM MST reply actions
JFK's Quote of the Day:
“I love September, especially when we’re in it.” ~Willie Stargell Heavy Hitters (Bill Gutman)
"There have been only two geniuses in the world. Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare." ~Tallulah Bankhead
"Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good too." ~Greg, age 8
Assistant GM of the PRMLB Cincinnati Reds
JFK
Safe to assume that Saunders is going back to the beat?
Whiskey tends to make me high, and sad songs make me cry. Pretty women break my heart almost every night. I run on beans and nicotine; I'm a real, live buckaroo. And my heart's not pure, my boots ain't clean, and I never tell the truth.
by wtnelson on Feb 12, 2012 9:41 AM MST via Android app reply actions
Yes
Renck tweeted as such last week sometime
"Some guy on the net thinks I suck, and he should know - he's got his own blog." - Nick Hornby
"Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est"
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 12, 2012 10:48 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Schoenfield had a point....
RG, I think you overlooked one of the main points that Schoenfield had in his article. It was this paragraph:
Now, I don’t know what happened in the Rockies’ clubhouse last season. But from the outside, it appears to me that O’Dowd is making excuses for the team’s 73-89 record. He’s not calling out himself for constructing a bad team, or manager Jim Tracy for not making sure the team played “the game the right way” or even veterans like Todd Helton or Troy Tulowitzki for failing, you know, to build a winning clubhouse atmosphere.
He is essentially saying that O’Dowd is assigning a “cause-and-effect” of our team failure last season, i.e. a broken-down clubhouse culture was responsible for our stinking. Attributing an underachieving team to a dysfunctional clubhouse is a convenient way for a GM to try to deflect criticism from himself, and his own choices of players and field staff. That is what I believe Schoenfield was trying to say. And I think that’s a very legitimate point you didn’t take note of in your post.
I also happen to think that a GM talking about “clubhouse culture” or “team chemistry” is a phoney-baloney platitude that is meant more for fan and media consumption than it is reflecting any sort of real-world reality of what leads to winning. Talent leads to winning, and while team leadership can keep a team focused and resilient in a 6 month grind, they don’t all have to be choir-boys who sing Kumbaya together. Just look at the early 70’s Oakland A’s dynasty for Exhibit A. Tons of talent that fought their way, and with each other, to three straight world championships.
I actually disagreed, I thought Schoenfield's again picking and choosing, this time overlooking all the times O'Dowd
has taken responsibility for bringing in the players:
“It remains to be seen if we accomplished anything,” O’Dowd said. “I’ve been humbled enough times to know nothing is certain. I thought we’d be good last year, and we stunk. I don’t think we’re a championship quality team as we sit here today. With young pitchers, you can have incredible inconsistency, or they can take off and run with it. That’s the great unknown.”
From Richard Justice’s piece. I think your argument and Schoenfield’s tend to put too much emphasis for when the results on the field of play don’t match expectations on the front office and management, when it’s more likely a shared responsibility. O’Dowd’s great roster churn of this off-season is in fact a tacit acknowledgement of his own failure at bringing in a winning club with the last build. I don’t see any statement of his this winter that’s absolved himself of responsibility, just several that he also wants players to hold themselves accountable since they’re the ones who are actually playing the game and expected to be playing it well. Tracy seems to be off the hook, though.
Now what you actually might be wanting is for the Monforts to hold O’Dowd accountable by canning him, and it seems that Schoenfield’s eager for blood, but that’s separate from the GM himself taking responsibility and accountability and doing what he can to rectify the mistake.
by Rox Girl on Feb 12, 2012 10:17 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Seems to me the SABR fan-boys have always had it in for O'Dowd
Because for whatever reason the Rockies are thought to rely less on stats than most teams, and when they do they have their own exotic creations. Don’t even know if it’s true, but it’s a direct threat to the world view of the Schoenfields of the world. It’s a real subterranean culture-war.
by BostonTransplant on Feb 12, 2012 10:45 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think you need to be a SABR guy...
to realize that talent wins more than anything else. Are there other factors? Yes, luck being the best known factor. Team health is right up there too. Teams that lose very little time to key injuries do better. I’d put clubhouse culture down near the bottom of my list of factors, and actually think it’s sanctimonuous for any GM to suggest clubhouse dynamics weren’t right and can be improved by shipping players out and replacing them with other players. Clubhouse dynamics is the #1 job of the manager, not the GM.
by The Fanimal on Feb 12, 2012 10:50 AM MST up reply actions
the Rockies employ their own proprietary stat system
Purple Row - For all of your Colorado Rockies-related needs
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics
PRMLB Marlins
by Andrew Martin on Feb 12, 2012 11:10 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Do you know enough about it to compare?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
seems like kinda dumb to do that
considering how easy it is to type in “fangraphs.com”
Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort
by papality on Feb 12, 2012 11:59 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
we'd have a new outfield every year
Campaigning for more day baseball games since 2006
by djmbluemoon on Feb 12, 2012 12:01 PM MST up reply actions
Considering how easy it is to type "fangraphs.com" is exactly why I'd want a proprietary system.
I’d just judge that system to FanGraphs and ZiPS and what have you and make sure mine came out ahead.
it seems like whatever they do use isn’t very good, then
Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort
by papality on Feb 12, 2012 12:15 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
Unless they are purposely trying to hide what they know.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I forgot about that O'Dowd quote...
He does seem contrite there, and even a tad humble. Still, that doesn’t excuse O’Dowd for using the “clubhouse culture” excuse. He leans on it WAAAY too much.
by The Fanimal on Feb 12, 2012 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
This is exactly what I was thinking
O’Dowd’s great roster churn of this off-season is in fact a tacit acknowledgement of his own failure at bringing in a winning club with the last build.
Altar Boy in the Church of Santo Ubaldo
"...buffalo chicken is a fine anti-depressant, after all." -UZ
"... One order of buffalo wings, please..." -Yokel, after July 30, 2011
the point is that O'Dowd didn't construct a Bad Team in 2011
he constructed a team that played bad
C Iannetta never lived up to his 08 .264/.390/.505 potential but his 102 OPS+ wasn’t the problem
1B Helton/Giambi/Wiggy the 111WRC+ wasn’t the problem here
2B Black Hole Jose Lopez/Chris Nelson/ Jonny Herrera no one stepped up Ellis was acquired
3B Ian Stewart 3 pitchers posted better OPS+ in 2011 than our plan A 3B/Wiggy/Kouz happened and were fine backup plans not great but fine
SS Tulo best SS in baseball
LF Cargo one bad month a top 10 OF in MLB every month until rested in SEP
CF incredibly disapointing start dreamy Finish
RF Smith top 30-40 OF offensively was 33 in OF PA
SP Ubaldo coming off record setting year was horrible
SP JDLR was great got hurt\
SP Chacin great first half bad second still turned in the fourth lowest ERA in team history
SP Hammel fell apart
SP Rogers/Cook were awful but if all else had been awful Nicasio would have pushed us into the playoffs or Felipe Paulino would have done the same
Bullpen was excellent
so really 2B was the only real thing to complain about DOD coming in to the 2011 season and Lopez was an excellent bounce back candidate and Herrera’s rookie 284/.352/.342 with excellent D was worth exploring. everything else was players with a excellent to decent track record like Ubaldo, Stewart, and Hammel falling apart and not one bounce back candidate stepping up (Cook, Paulino(didn’t get a chance), Lopez) and no young guys broke out(EY, Nelson, Blackmon)
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
by TomCat009 on Feb 12, 2012 10:26 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
My point is O'Dowd is wrong to blame it on "clubhouse culture"...
Clubhouse culture did not cause Ubaldo to be hurt and inconsistent.
Clubhouse culture didn’t make Ian Stewart a whiffing headcase.
Clubhouse culture didn’t cause Wiggy to continue his mediocre ways from years past.
And clubhouse culture isn’t the reason we lost so much in the latter part of the year. Injuries and resting the regulars did more for our collapse in September than any dysfunction in the clubhouse.
As you point out, we had some good parts to last year’s team. However, we didn’t pitch, field, or hit consistently enough to contend. That’s an on-field problem, not an off-field problem, and I wish O’Dowd would quit trying to focus his comments off the field.
by The Fanimal on Feb 12, 2012 10:46 AM MST up reply actions
The first two actually could be attributable to clubhouse culture,
I really don’t see how you can exclude it as a reason for the Jimenez and Stewart cases.
by Rox Girl on Feb 12, 2012 10:56 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
That's not supportable, though...
Ubaldo had nagging physical issues early, then did better for two months in May/June, then started to have struggles again when rumors swirled. How can you support your thought that a dysfunctional clubhouse led to any of that?
Ian Stewart simply slumped and wasn’t that good to begin with. It snowballed. That is not something that was caused by no teammates jumping on him in the clubhouse and making him “accountable”. How would that have helped? And how do we know what was said among teammates behind closed doors?
To suggest something that happened in the clubhouse, or didn’t happen, caused certain things to take place on the field just seems like a weak argument. Neither of us were there, and how could anyone say from the outside?
by The Fanimal on Feb 12, 2012 11:03 AM MST up reply actions
The "nagging physical issues" and "started to have struggles again when rumors swirled," are just as dubious
De La Rosa pitched through an elbow injury for eight starts without the same type of struggles as Ubaldo. As it is, even at the time the trade rumors also included some that he was malcontent with the Tulo and Cargo extensions of the previous winter. The team actually tried to quash those to keep his trade value up, but they haven’t gone away.
And how do we know what was said among teammates behind closed doors?
Because it’s been reported over and over again by several people involved? We obviously don’t know first hand, but there’s not like there’s a lack of sourcing on this stuff. And your argument presupposes that O’Dowd wouldn’t have a better idea of what’s going on behind the closed doors than the general population of Rockies fans. That’s absurd. He better know what’s going on in the clubhouse. Plus, if his take was off on this, don’t you suppose Tulo or other players would be jumping to their former teammates’ defense?
It’s easier for me to believe the people involved such as the players, coaches and O’Dowd, and beat reporters like Renck and Harding than it would be to believe an outsider like Shoenfield or one of us.
As for how trying to make Stewart accountable would have helped 2011? I don’t know if it would have, as in effect holding him accountable is what got him shipped out but only after the wasted season had gone down in the books. Stewart was already an issue that needed fixed despite all the talent he has. O’Dowd’s acknowledgement this winter is that he had too much faith in Stewart’s talent to overcome the attitude issues.
by Rox Girl on Feb 12, 2012 11:19 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I tend not to believe in hearsay...
Nor would I take much credence in the explanation of what went wrong by a GM who is in a bit of trouble and has a vested interest in preserving his own job.
Let’s face it. O’Dowd is somewhat “under the gun” this offseason to fix the roster and generate at least some hope for a winning season, if not actually improved results. We don’t know the dynamics between ownership and Dan in terms of how he could be held accountable by his bosses. My guess is that he’s in more trouble now than he was even in the wake of the Hampton and Neagle disasters.
Thus, we have seen an inordinate amount of dealing, some would call it scrambling, by our GM. If they win, he will get the lion’s share of the credit. If they fail, at least he tried to bridge us to 2013. Either way, a lot of activity is best explained as Dan’s job preservation strategy than explained by changing up the clubhouse culture. The O’Dowd spin is most likely a contrived explanation in his ongoing shell game to keep people believing that he’s “on the case” and doing his job to right the ship.
Color me skeptical, but he has made the offseason fun if nothing else, and provided some intrigue for fans in watching things unfold for this remade roster.
I don't see O'Dowd as feeling his job may be in jeopardy in 2012.
The usual tell for me of a GM that feels they’re on the hot seat is that the trades and player acquisitions generally deplete the farm system for a team that’s not really in contention. The Cubs trade of Matt Garza a year ago would be an example that comes to mind. The Nationals’ acquisition of Gio Gonzalez might be an example from this winter, but I haven’t read anywhere that Rizzo’s under a gun.
I think he sees a two year window, which is why he’s okay with so many bridge pieces for right now, but is banking a lot on prospects like Arenado, Pomeranz and Rosario coming through for the year after.
All of that said, I do agree that hearsay evidence isn’t as reliable as direct evidence and should be discounted accordingly, but we aren’t a jury here deciding some defendant’s fate, such evidence doesn’t have to be dismissed out of hand by blog readers if it comes from a reliable source or multiple sources as the case seems to be here. It’s not just O’Dowd that’s saying the players were self-serving and not team focused last season.
I know you have acknowledged at least twice that you agree with this ...
But Tracy is the one who jerked Iannetta and Stewart around. Yes, they were underperforming, but particularly in Stewart’s case, he was coming off an early spring injury and was sent down after what … less than 50 AB’s?
You take some chances when you construct a roster. Sometimes you bank on a guy as a rebound candidate – Lopez. I thought at the time it was an awful gamble, and it turned out to be. Sometimes you bank on younger players reaching their potential, as in the case of Stewart, Iannetta, Fowler and Smith. When you make such a gamble, you have to stick it out. The way Stewart was handled in 2011 was a travesty. Only time will tell if he is going to ever be a solid regular … I think the chances of anything greater is now quite slim, but still possible. The thing is, we don’t really know because he wasn’t allowed to figure it out against big league pitching.
I would hazard a guess that if he had to do it all over again, in hindsight O’Dowd would have wanted to see Stewart play the year out. At least we would know what he is or isn’t. Would anyone really be all that surprised if he out-WAR’d Blake?
As I said, Tracy seems to be the constant here. He gained my respect when he first took over by setting a lineup and sticking to it. Then, he does an about face and tinkered alomst daily. I realize he felt the pressure to win, but IMO he managed like a drunk gambler plays blackjack.
by Traindogger on Feb 12, 2012 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
I agree with most of this, except for Stewart.
If he had looked even halfway decent in those 50 AB’s you could have chalked it up to bad luck and given him more opportunity to tough it out, but he was abysmally outmatched by MLB pitching. He had less chance of success than our pitchers and sending him down was the only option the team had at that point. Fowler has much more of a case to be upset about being sent to AAA than Stewart did. With Ian it was the only solution his play left the team.
by Rox Girl on Feb 12, 2012 11:25 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Fowler was willing to learn and reset. Did Stewart really ever?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Stewart had already been given enough rope to hang himself with before last years' season even began.
I have a lot of respect for Jarmillo as a hitting instructor and he’s widely considered one of the best in the Biz. He couldn’t help Fukodome or Clovin. I doubt he’ll be able to help Stewart either. Stewart’s problem is Stewart.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Personally, I fully expect Stewart to out-WAR Blake.
Though that’s mainly because I think Arenado might be banging down the door for the starting job at 3B by midseaaon.
I agree with you about the mishandling of Stewart last year, at any rate. The fact that he missed all of Spring Training, but then was put on the OD roster and had to face MLB pitching while being three weeks behind probably didn’t help his struggles, and he was sent down after he predictably started the year awfully.
None of this excuses the fact that Ian Stewart was a worse hitter than Kevin Millwood last season, and he certainly deserves a large share of the blame for his disastrous year. But I agree that Tracy’s handling of him compounded the issue, and I worry that Tracy will do it again to a different young player who struggles this season.
by Shoemaker on Feb 12, 2012 11:43 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
Does anyone else see a failure of 3rd base being even more possible
than a seamless Blake-Arenado transition? I really feel like if Blake gets hurt, Tracy would rather have Pacheco start and really struggle for awhile before Arenado finally comes up after the break. I don’t believe for a second that the Rockies will rush Arenado to the tune of 150-200 AB in Tulsa, because I remember how big of a deal it was at the time that DOD let Fowler skip AAA and how we all believed that screwed up Fowler’s development somewhat.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
by MattBerger on Feb 12, 2012 2:40 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think Jordan will struggle at the plate so much as not hit for the desired power and have trouble in the field.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
i don't think anyone thinks pacheco will hit for terribly much power
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by papality on Feb 12, 2012 3:21 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
He's going to need power to be a useful player, or hit over .300. Even minimum power.
Pacheco hasn’t done that since he was a 24 year player taking advantage of A ball hitters. He literally does nothing else except hit for contact. That limits the overall player he can be. Case and point: Jon Herrera, except Herrera could actually field. I’m absolutely amazed people are falling in love with Pacheco for the same reasons as Herrera when Herrera failed last year to even prove he could be a positive player on offense. If Pacheco becomes even an average starter at third base (hit for 100 OPS +, park adjusted), then I’ll eat my words, but I’m that confident that Pacheco will turn out to be a bench player that sticks around for a few years, at best.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
he gets on base
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.343 in CS and .316 in the majors.
Very underwhelming.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
.377 in MiLB
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
MLB average in 2011
was .321
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it's so easy to look at his CS numbers and throw pacheco out
but that’s just so lazy and wrong
Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort
I agree, I think ignoring the fact that Pacheco skipped AA
right to facing pitchers who are AAAA is a poor standard to hold him to.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
well he didn't skip tulsa
he was just there for half a season
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actually not even that
21 games
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Pacheco in Asheville: 23. Pacheco in Modesto: 24.
The only positive he’s got going for him was what he did in Tulsa. That was impressive, but it was only 78 at bats. Pacheco really needs to prove that he can hit more talented pitching with the same vigor he did in the lower minors. Except for 78 at bats in Tulsa, he just hasn’t done that. I like his major league approach, but everything about Pacheco screams that we’re making a Herrera type mistake with him. He might be a valuable bench piece for a few years, but it’s going to be a huge mistake if he commit 300-400 at bats to him next year.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
by MattBerger on Feb 12, 2012 4:31 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
If Pacheco reaches 400 AB's ...
It will be a very long summer.
by Traindogger on Feb 12, 2012 4:35 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Wrong that's like saying Nicasio is was old for competition
Pacheco has a 176/196 BB/K ratio through the minors he has he well above average everywhere but CS, really your argument against Pacheco is that he didn’t murder AAA, well neither did plenty of good to great hitters.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
especially considering he spent the time focusing on catching
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your entire argument is that he posted a 92 wOBA+
in AAA while ignoring that his wOBA has been above average every other place he has been. why are you even worried about the 24th man on the roster anyways?
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
and even in his down year, posted a .343 OBP
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I totally read this headline wrong the first time...
I was wondering why I hadn’t noticed Pacheco’s problem getting thrown out with so many caught stealings.
he went 12/2 in 2009
but then 6/7 in 2010…
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It's just so easy to throw him out, apparently
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Feb 12, 2012 4:46 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
if he can be for us what jeff baker has been for CHN I will be fine with that
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Jeff Baker career OPS: 94+
I doubt Pacheco reaches that.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
You might be right Baker murders LHP
he has a Career .886 OPS against them, but has more career PA against RHP
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
do you mean jamey carroll?
Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort
Fowler is a different animal ...
And not such a great comparison for Arenado. Fowler is still relatively new to switch-hitting, and his hit tool wasn’t ever that strong. Arenado, by comparison, has hit everywhere he plays, and that translates better to jumping to the majors. However, I agree that it would be best to have Arenad face the better pitchers in the upper levels of the minors by playing at least until June at AA – even if he lights it up in Spring Training.
by Traindogger on Feb 12, 2012 4:19 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
If Arenado is lighting up AA like the AFL, then June makes sense
I’d rather be cautious though, he’d really have to light up Tulsa if he’s going to be up before the All Star Break.
Your 2012 Colorado Rockies:freshly exorcised from Ty Wigginton
If Arenado is up by August I'll be psyched
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Tracy needs to pick a line up and stick with it...
…but to say Ian “1-2 to” Stewart should have been given yet more of an opportunity—after the club had given him so many and had made so many other draft decisions based on “we still have Stewart coming up”—just seems ridiculous to me at this point.
I cannot stomach watching another 1-2 fastball busting him inside for strike 3.
by WhiskeyDrinkingMan on Feb 12, 2012 1:00 PM MST up reply actions
. When you make such a gamble, you have to stick it out.
How long? Do you have to stick that player in the lineup at a position until they’re ready to retire, just because you gave them a chance as a younger player? Of course not. This wasn’t Stewarts first or only chance. It was just the point where he went from showing enough to get another chance to completely overmatched as an MLB player. No organization that has even the slightest interest in winning can keep running a player out there who was playing the way Stewart was.
Frankly, when it comes to Stewart, I think DO’D did a remarkable job by turning him (and equally broken former prospect Weathers) into two players who will have at least a fighting chance of contributing to the major league roster.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Feb 12, 2012 1:18 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Right ...
You don’t stick with a player for eternity and I never suggested that. Hindsight is 20/20 but I think you hold Stewart back in extended spring training or in the minors after his injury. Then when he shows he is ready, you give him more than 50 AB’s. Had he been hitting well and then gone into a slump in July for a 50 AB stretch, it is much less scrutinized than starting the year off like that, despite the fact that the AB’s matter just as much wherever they fall in the season.
I do believe he was mishandled. You can take issue with that and Stewart certainly has to be held responsible for his failures. It is just that for me, I would rather see a player be given more than 50 AB’s to prove himself. I mean, we are talking about an approximately 1 1/2 win player over the course of a full season from 2008-10. Yeah, that might be a huge disappointment based on the lofty expectations, but still a player that wasn’t exactly hurting the team a la Wigginton.
But he wasn't given 50 AB's to prove himself
He was given 1418 PA’s to prove himself. And quite simply he wasn’t proving anything even before 2011. At best, in 2010 he was about the same player he was when he was called up in 2008. High K%, slightly lower OPS, a little more power, glove roughly comparable. And both those years were better than a very disappointing 2009. After 2 1/2 seasons, if you’re seeing a player who is inconsistent, with major holes in his game, and showing little sign of improving, that player automatically goes into the next season on watch. Add in the fact that he started 2011 with a raise of nearly $2 million, and it is time for that player to put up or shut up. Come out at the start of the season and put up 3 hits in 6 weeks, looking like an AL reliever at the plate most of that time, and it simply isn’t fair to the rest of the team to continue to treat you like you’re entitled to an MLB starting spot any longer.
I won’t disagree that he should have started the year jn the minors (or at EST), but considering the results they got from him after he was sent down, I’m not sure it would have made any difference…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Feb 12, 2012 4:44 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Look ... I get it.
Stewart failed tolive up to expectations. But he was approximately a 1.5 WAR player for three years running … perhaps that is all he is, but talking about a $2million raise when his average worth the prior three season was $7million plus per … heck we throew more money at Wigginton who failed but kept playing due to his veteranariness.
You say Wiggy failed in 2011
and I’ll agree. But compare him to Stewart 2009-2010 and there isn’t a huge difference.
Wiffy 2011: 446 PA .242/.315/.416 15 HR 84K .731OPS
Stewie 2010: 441 PA .256/.338/.443 18 HR 110 K .781 OPS
Stewie 2009: 491 PA .228/.322/.464 25HR 138K .786 OPS
Basically Stewie hit for slightly more power and average in 2010 than Wiffy did in 2011, and in 2009 for a lot more power but a lot less contact. And in both years struck out at a much higher rate. If what Wiffy did in 2011 was failure, as you put it, then what Stewart did in 2009 & 2010 wasn’t far from it. Add to that his complete inability to do anything at the MLB level in 2011 and I just don’t see how the team could keep running him out there in good conscience, just hoping that he was suddenly going to get it. If the team tried that with Wiffy after watching 2 years of what he gave us last year, there would be riots, and rightly so…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Feb 12, 2012 8:44 PM MST up reply actions
And Stewart's problems
led directly to Wiggy’s mediocrity becoming a big issue, since it led to him getting much more regular playing time than he was originally intended to have.
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
In line for seats at the Grand Junction Rockies 2012 home opener
by Junction Rox on Feb 12, 2012 12:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I've watched a few baseball meltdowns in my time...
Does anybody here give DOD credit for the number of times he passed on Milton Bradley?You don’t have to be a volcano type to be a clubhouse cancer. Sometime the “free spirits” can undermine authority. Sometimes the prima donna types can suck all the Oxygen off the bench.
Some people don’t respond to the stick or the carrot; Sparky Anderson’s response to all of the above was it’s my way or the hiway. He told players bluntly that if they did not do what he wanted when he wanted it they’d be out of baseball by the time he was thru wrecking their reputations. He’d also tell them he’d never berate them for being asked to do something on the field they weren’t capable of.He’d say he’d teach if they were willing to learn. If thet weren’t at least willing to try to apply what was taught they would not be a Red or a Tiger very long. Glenallen Hill is the Only Rockies coach I’ve seen take a player to task on the field. I like him as a hitting instructer. I hate him for baserunning and firstbase coach.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
by Oldfoagie on Feb 12, 2012 10:52 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
Milton Bradley was a very good player
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by papality on Feb 12, 2012 12:03 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
Did you ever really want him to be a Rockie post Cleveland?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
yes
he was good every year before Seattle, and was still ok with the cubs
Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort
by papality on Feb 12, 2012 12:12 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
Still he was high maintenance to the point that every club that had him kicked them selves for beleiving in his talent
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
by Oldfoagie on Feb 12, 2012 12:21 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know if I'm remembering this correctly or not
but it seems to me that DOD has alluded to “clubhouse culture” every off-season as being an issue since the Rockies went to the WS. It smacks of scapegoating because the team didn’t meet all the high expectations every season since the 07 run.
I read all the time that winning fixes a lot of problems. I can’t help but wonder if the team had made playoffs every year would “clubhouse culture” still be an issue? If there are bad seeds wouldn’t they still be bad seeds even if the team was making the playoffs? Does winning make “clubhouse culture” issues magically go away or does it just make it easier to ignore them?
I’m still not sure I understand what “culture” DOD is looking for. And maybe us outside the organization don’t entirely need to know. But given all the debating about it here, even amongst more savvy baseball people(of which I don’t necessarily include myself) it seems kind of nebulous what he’s intending. I hope it’s not as nebulous when he communicates it to the players going forward, or methinks we go through this again next off-season.
Jason Hammel - permanently /2011'd
Happy Now?!
OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
So if the team does make the playoffs in 2012, or otherwise sees marked improvement from 2011,
would you suggest as Schoenfield does that it’s just that the talent on the field that was improved, not the “clubhouse culture”? I guess where I’m coming from is that O’Dowd’s set up an experiment where we can start to find out how much “culture” matters. On paper, the Rockies of 2012 have a fairly similar projection to 2011 but a vastly different roster. Last season’s team grossly underwhelmed according to expectations, if this team performs closer to what’s expected or above it, it would seemingly be a data point in favor of culture mattering. It likely won’t be the reason for everything coming together, but it would have to figure prominently in the equation. On the other hand, if the team’s equally disappointing while Jimenez, Smith, Stewart, Ianetta et al are successful elsewhere, I think it would be a fairly clear indictment of management and the front office.
There are lots of reasons why 2012 is likely to look better than 2011 when compared to pre-season expectations
If this is the case it will still be just as immeasurable what level of impact the change in culture had.
Campaigning for more day baseball games since 2006
by djmbluemoon on Feb 12, 2012 11:55 AM MST up reply actions
Culture will always be immeasurable,
my point is that this would be a case where you’d almost have to acknowledge it had some impact. O’Dowd’s design for this type of player is so focused that it would be hard to ignore it unless you had an agenda to pretend that there’s no such thing.
This depends on how much they improve by
If they finish with 90+ wins then yes it would have to be acknowledged to have an effect given the likely true talent level of the team.
If they finish at around .500 (still an improvement) then I think it could easily be argued as other factors (regression, health, luck etc.)
Campaigning for more day baseball games since 2006
by djmbluemoon on Feb 12, 2012 12:05 PM MST up reply actions
I think this is fair.
I do, however, think that “culture” is likely an intangible that gets lumped in the general catch-all “luck” category by most SABR inclined fans. “Luck” as it’s commonly used by baseball Internet writers, including myself at times, usually isn’t all luck.
This is probably true.
It also leads onto the point that factors such as culture or intangibles are never going to be properly acknowledged by SABR guys as the effects of these would theoretically show up in WAR anyway.
If the Rockies play more alert defense/baserunning or don’t give up on games due to greater accountability/cheerleading in the locker room then they get better results and hey presto the WAR increases. Then the reason we improve isn’t due to culture it’s due to having more talent.
Campaigning for more day baseball games since 2006
by djmbluemoon on Feb 12, 2012 12:18 PM MST up reply actions
Yes, we're lumping a lot of things into "clubhouse culture" that don't belong there
Such as hitting fundamentals (moving men over, hitting sac flies, being patient with runners in scoring position) and baserunning, both of which cost us dearly last year.
by BostonTransplant on Feb 12, 2012 2:52 PM MST up reply actions
This is true but kind of missing the point
For clubhouse culture to help, it needs to directly help win games, which is only possible through playing better on the field, which then shows up in improved stats. It’s not like if it’s a tied game they send the decision to which bench clapped the most during the game.
Campaigning for more day baseball games since 2006
Clarify, please. Your headline doesn't seem to match with this statement:
Last season’s team grossly underwhelmed according to expectations, if this team performs closer to what’s expected or above it, it would seemingly be a data point in favor of culture mattering.
A lot of people picked the Rockies to be in the postseason last year. I wasn’t one of them – I had them at 85-86 wins, about a half-dozen games behind the Giants and missing out on the Wild Card. But even so, I certainly didn’t see a 73-win meltdown coming. Now the Rockies appear to be a consensus 4th place team, in large part because of how badly they underformed in 2010 and especially 2011. If this team does what you stated in your headline, then absolutely sign me up for the Dan O’Dowd Fan Club. But if it simply “performs closer to what’s expected,” – I’ll chalk that up to drastically lowered expectations, not a cultural overhaul.
by Northsider1964 on Feb 12, 2012 1:43 PM MST up reply actions
I think above I argued that the talent of the 2012 team is closer to that 85-86 win team we were supposed to be last year
Maybe a game or two under, but close enough and still above .500 if only by a couple of games. If they do finish 4th place and sub-.500 again, I wouldn’t say that it’s a data point in favor of “culture” at all, in fact, later in my above post I said as much:
On the other hand, if the team’s equally disappointing while Jimenez, Smith, Stewart, Ianetta et al are successful elsewhere, I think it would be a fairly clear indictment of management and the front office.
By which I mean clocking in with a similar record to 2011. Even if the team finishes better than 2011 but only in the 79-81 win range, I would say that it’s a pretty poor sign for a change of culture mattering all that much.
Thank you for clarifying. This I certainly agree with:
Even if the team finishes better than 2011 but only in the 79-81 win range, I would say that it’s a pretty poor sign for a change of culture mattering all that much.
I don’t think the 2012 team has to make the postseason for the offseason overhaul to be deemed successful. But on the other hand, just sucking a little bit less than last year doesn’t tell me much either. Something north of the 83 wins they had in 2010 would be encouraging, assuming some of the young guys on the mound step up and show promise.
by Northsider1964 on Feb 12, 2012 2:05 PM MST up reply actions
I think we'l be going thru this anyway Cat...
Blake and Scoots and Guthrie are likely rentals. They are holding places for Arenado,Rutledge and JDLR. Cuddyer is the Matador’s cape to insure against time cacthing Todd. That we don’t have a real replacement in the wings is bothersome to me. One of Wheeler/Blackmon/Clovin must perform in the outfield for Cuddyer to beable to do that. Even then that is a short term fix at 1b.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I'm not talking about the change of players
I’m talking about the “clubhouse culture” conversations. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Jason Hammel - permanently /2011'd
Happy Now?!
OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
These guys are also part of the change of culture. The veteran leadership and accountability DOD seeks.
Scoots is the only one besides Cuddyer who maybe here next year. Kinda hard to change a culture in only one year. I also think this is a MGT/ FO issue.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
DOD has made these noises before
I remember in 08 (09) an article was posted in the clubhouse that basically said similar things.
Jason Hammel - permanently /2011'd
Happy Now?!
OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
From time to time every club will as they cull the lame the lazy and the unenlightened from the herd.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I guess my post ended up being interpreted
differently than I intended. I’m not saying that there aren’t players that have problems or are problems. I’m saying that this has been something DOD has brought up every season since 07.
Jason Hammel - permanently /2011'd
Happy Now?!
OG Thugget Loyalist #4, QPU Emeritus, Proud member PR Gynocracy
RG? I made a comment in yesteday's rockpile about balanced approaches and diversity of stuff among the pitching staff.
Do you care to comment on that? I wonder if DOD believes what he’s doing or if this his just his latest fad? Is he groping in the dark?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I'm not sure I'd categorize it as groping in the dark as much as throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks.
Groping in the dark connotes trying to look for something you don’t have while blind, but O’Dowd’s acknowledged (see the Saunders link for that acknowledgement) blindness right now isn’t to where the stuff is, it’s to what’s actually valuable among the stuff that he has.
I don’t think that it’s by design that the Rockies have a more diverse staff other than a shift to acquire the best available pitchers even if they aren’t apparently “fits” for Coors Field.
I've never been that big a believer in the fit's for Coors bit.
I actually believe it’s made us more hittable on the road not having a diversity of looks among the pitching staff. You knew for the last several years the Rox were going to groove the two seam to the corners of the plate. If I were hitting against the Rox I’d practice against that when I knew I was going to face them. I’d practice against the slider at Coors and the curve on the road.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Leadership also depends on willing to be lead. Too many chiefs and not enough indians etc.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
For those of you who remember me talking about a claiming that DOD said Ubaldo
tried to force an extension last offseason, I talked to my brother more extensively about that story. The guy who told him that said that another point he took away was that ODowd said that the second challenge was to get Tulo “to work as much with the guys he doesn’t like, as much as he will with the guys he does” the guy basically said that when DOD would ask Tulo for his opinion about certain guys, Troy’s opinion was that we should get rid of them.
I think that Arenado showing up to camp Tulo last year, and Ian Stewart/Seth Smith/Chris Iannetta not going may have a bit to do with who was viewed as true competitors and who got shipped. It might also have a bit to do with why Dex has done what he has done this offseason, and why Cuddy was getting recruited by Tulo.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Again with every hearsay caveat, it would seem that DOD really views this as Tulo's team
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
tough not to
he’s our jeter, our captain
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I think he is more than that
my brother said recounted the story of Tulo yelling at an OF for missing the cutoff his first day of ST as a rookie. That he yelled something along the lines of “Sh** like that is why we lose so many games around here”
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
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