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Around SBN: The Amateur Mathematics Of Linsanity

Clint Hurdle as manager {Long}

Over the past few weeks, I have seen, and read about, much discussion as to the merits of our lovely manager.  Why did he make that move?, is he even watching the game?, why doesn't O'Dowd fire him already?.  These are the comments I have seen most often.  While I am not going to defend some of his decisions (Barmes loyalty for one), I do think it is fair to say that Clint is a man capable of managing quite successfully if given the necessary ingredients.

So where does that leave us?  We have seen four managers try to win here in Colorado.  The only one that has tasted success was Don Baylor.  Up until this season, the other three have failed miserably.  Baylor spent the first couple of seasons learning how to manage a baseball team at altitude.  He proved quite successfully in the third season that making the post season in Denver could be done.  He successfully was able to convince his players to use Coors Field to their advantage, and let it intimidate the opposition.  After the post season in 1995, I recall many Atlanta Braves players and coaches saying publicly they were extremely lucky to have survived the first round playoff battle with the Rockies.  That is the year, of course, that Atlanta won their only World Series of their incredible playoff run.  After 1995, Baylor had two years where the team played over .500 baseball.  In 1998, the year he was fired, the team finished 4th at 77-85.  

So, why was Don Baylor fired?  The reason was simply that our idiotic General Manager Bob Gebhardt convinced our equally idiotic owner Jerry McMorris that the only way the Rockies were ever going to win the World Series was to fire their quite capable manager Baylor and hire the one year removed from the Series win Jim Leyland.  Leyland came in with all of his fancy theories and cigarettes, and we all fell into the trap of expecting a Series title of our own.  Well, when the theories didn't pan out in Coors, Leyland wimped out on his signed contract and took his smokes home to sit on his butt until Detroit came calling.  Our next manager of course, was the hapless Buddy Bell, progressing on to the hitting coach that had been through it all Clint Hurdle.  Of course, during all this, Gebhardt was let go, and McMorris hired Trader Dan, but that is another subject.  It is my argument that the firing of Don Baylor set the Colorado Rockies on a multiyear path of changed plans, bad trades, and general ineptitude.  

Fast forward a couple of years.  Clint and Dan have spent a heck of a long time figuring out how to win here.  The team has shown flashes of being outstanding, the pitching has never been better, and I feel we are one or two seasons away from making a real run.  This of course assumes that the front office makes some astute player personnel decisions as well.  As far as the manager goes, I think we are essentially in the same situation we were in with Baylor.  I feel that if the media and the fans keep pressuring the Rockies to fire Clint, then that will put us right back where we were with Leyland.  That is to say the new guy will have to spend at least two seasons learning how to deal with pitching here, how to manage the bench here, etc.  What if he fails at this?  The team loses, the kids we are all so excited about don't build confidence, the team loses some more.  We would be set on another five year rebuilding plan, which means we would essentially be the Pirates and the Royals.

Hurdle has figured out what it takes to win in Denver.  He knows how to massage the pitchers, get the bench playing time, get them to win on the road, etc.  Even though the team is under .500, he has managed the team to win some great ball games this season.   I also feel he has proven this year that he is capable of adapting his managing style as the kids grow while searching for the piece that is going to stick.  I say we give him one more season to prove he can do it.  If in September, 2007 we are still stuck in last place, then yes, bring in a new skipper.  But for right now, let's respect him and support him and see if he can't get us to 0.500 ball and into third place before the season ends.  I think he deserves at least that.

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

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Hurdle
I've always been fairly supportive of Hurdle, but that's mainly because my philosophy is that a manager is only as good as the talent he has to work with, and until this season, Hurdle hasn't had a whole lot of talent to work with.

I also believe that players win and lose games, not managers, and as long as a manager puts his team in the best position to win, he can't be to blame. I've screamed at the TV when Jose Mesa has been brought in or when Jorge Piedra has been used to pinch hit, but in all likelihood, those were the common sense moves - that is to say, the moves that any other manager in Hurdle's situation would have made.

I don't think Hurdle makes our team any better or any worse. If anything, I give him credit because the young players on this team seem to respect him and respond well to him. Plus, he's always come off as a genuinely nice guy, so it's hard to dislike him on a personal level.

If the Rox are in a rut next season, Hurdle certainly won't be the skipper in 2008. But as a placeholder of whom little has been expected, I'm pleased with the job he has done helping our young players.

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Aug 28, 2006 9:50 PM MDT reply actions  

one other thing
Oh, and regarding Baylor... thank God he was fired when he was. I'd hate to see him working with the Rockies young pitchers, as Baylor has always been notorious for overusing young arms and ruining them. Remember what happened to David Nied? Roger Bailey? What about when he was with the Cubs and abused Kerry Wood and Mark Prior? Baylor's a good guy and a solid strategic mind, but when it came to managing a pitching staff, he was absolutely clueless.
Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Aug 28, 2006 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

More Baylor
I must admit that the 1998 season is some what of a blur to me.  That was my last year in school, and I was more worried about graduating and finding a job than I was with the watching baseball.  I appreciate your comments.  I do remember putting the large percentage of the Rockies stagnation after the wild card year on Bob Gebhardt.  That guy did more to put this franchise on their losing ways than anyone (O'Dowds early trades not helping either).  Thinking about it all day, I think you are probably right about how Baylor used his pitching staff, and you make an excellent point about Prior and Wood.  I think the overall point of my post is that if Hurdle gets canned at the end of this season, it will doom us to at least three or four more years of losing.  

by Prospector on Aug 29, 2006 8:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hurdle...
I've gone back and forth on him. While I agree that up to now he hasn't had the best talent to work with, I haven't seen him show an ability to make players rise above their given talent or the team better than the sum of it's parts, which I think distinguishes the better managers in the league from the lesser ones. Leyland got scared way too quickly here, and had he had the humidor then, things might have gone differently. Hurdle hasn't chickened out like that, but he hasn't shown any reason to make s think that he'll be able to take this team to the next level. A perfect case in point is the team's performance here in August, when the chips are down and we've needed to pull out wins in order to stay competitive, we instead went on one of our worst losing binges of the season. As long as the correct decisions are made in hiring a replacement, like maybe staying in house again, there doesn't have to be the same lapse that followed the Leyland hiring.

by Rox Girl on Aug 29, 2006 6:02 AM MDT reply actions  

How about Jaime Quirk?
Just a thought.  But I stand by my give Hurdle one more season statement.

by Prospector on Aug 29, 2006 8:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hurdle...
I would say the manager has two jobs--1) to develop and manage the talent; 2) the on-field strategy/game management.

The first is more important, but difficult to gauge, the second easy to judge, but not terrribly important.  Personally, I think Hurdle is a bad game-day manager--he's a conventional, old-school baseball guy to a fault.  He bunts way too much, overplays the lefty-righty switch, gets fixated on playing players that should be on the bench, always plays his 8th inning guy for the 8th and save man to save the game regardless of whether it is warranted...etc.  

As for his management of talent, he might be pretty good, but it is hard to say.  He does a pretty good job of protecting the young arms; the pitchers in the system have developed nicely; some of the bats have developed nicely--even better than expected given minor league track records (although some have underperformed too--Closser comes to mind and Barmes shouldn't be this bad), but it is hard to gauge how much of that is Hurdle and how much of that is just the players.

Maybe the thing to do is to have a field manager and a talent manager--Hurdle could have the latter (which is the more important job).

by DenverBears on Aug 29, 2006 9:18 AM MDT reply actions  

Mostly agree
I agree with you mostly.

The exception being the very last part about two managers.  No need to discuss it, I don't see it happening, but otherwise I agree with you - he seems to be pretty good at keeping the club on an even keel, developing young guys, etc. but his on field coaching sucks at times.

Spilly never should have gone back down (and should have come back earlier once he did get sent down) and Iannetta (or another catcher with some offensive ability) should have been up instead of Ardoin.

If a catcher isn't playing very often (and I think that Yorvit was the best choice to play as often as possible) then he ought to be an offensive catcher so that he can help you by pinch hitting when he is not playing.

And if you have defensive guys like Sully playing every day then why not consider offensive minded back-ups so that you atleast have guys who can hit to come off the bench.

by MADness on Aug 29, 2006 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

actually....
I was joking about the two managers---sort of---I think it is a good idea, but would never happen.

by DenverBears on Aug 29, 2006 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Player Poll
In this week's Sports Illustrated in the "SI Players" section the players poll is who is the best and worst manager in baseball. SI surveyed 470 MLB players, so it's a pretty good example of what players think of managers. Hurdle came in 4th in the worst managers category. The results:

Best Manager:
Bobby Cox      30%
Jim Leyland    18%
Joe Torre      12%
Tony La Russa  10%

Worst Manager:
Frank Robinson 17%
Buck Showalter 15%
Mike Hargrove   8%
Clint Hurdle    7%

by Knepster on Aug 30, 2006 12:16 AM MDT reply actions  

interesting...
I would assume that Hurdle is off the radar for most of the players--so that's a pretty strong showing for Hurdle in the worst category.  All the other guys--both best and worst--have been around for a while and many of them have managed many teams.  I wonder how many of those that voted Hurdle first are Rockies (I hope it isn't most)--even if it isn't, it can't help for trying to get free agents to play for them.  Alternatively, I wonder if the 'born again' thing played any role.

by DenverBears on Aug 30, 2006 5:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

How much worse could he be?
Clint's really on my nerves lately with his whole "I need a forty year old washed up closer for the seventh and eighth inning" kick. Oy. I hope Stu, with all his experience with minor leaguers would know that some of them sometimes are just ready to shine.

by Rox Girl on Sep 29, 2006 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

The only concern I have with Cole
is that with the team starting to take steps forward, management may be more inclined to get a "proven" big league manager over a talented but raw guy.  I think Cole was great here in Tulsa, but it doesn't help matters that his team really went cold down the stretch (in his defense, Wichita was just scorching).  

by David "ohno" on Sep 30, 2006 5:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Look at the Dodgers
The Dodgers seem to have done just fine the last 5 years or so running out very young guys in high leverage situations.

The key is to have guys with great stuff rather than guys with borderline stuff who have to be perfect to get people out (Speier, Dohmann, etc.).

If Corpas continues like this in the spring I don't know how you justify taking him out of important innings.

by MADness on Sep 29, 2006 3:45 PM MDT reply actions  

I must admit
That I have soured on Hurdle a wee bit since writing this diary.  Now I am on the fence.  The performance of the team in the second half was unacceptable in my opinion.  We have a lot of holes to fill, and I'm afraid it's going to be a long winter.  

by Prospector on Sep 29, 2006 7:48 PM MDT reply actions  

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