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Keepers for 2008

In 2003, the Colorado Rockies used this batting order on opening day (with their OPS for the season):

  1. 2B -Ron Belliard .760, 28
  2. LF -Jay Payton .866, 30
  3. 1B -Todd Helton 1.088, 29
  4. RF -Larry Walker .898, 36
  5. CF -Preston Wilson .880, 28
  6. SS -Jose Hernandez .670, 33
  7. C -Charles Johnson .775, 31
  8. 3B -Chris Stynes .748, 30
And these were the opening day starters:
  1. Jason Jennings 5.11
  2. Aaron Cook 6.02
  3. Nelson Cruz 7.21
  4. Shawn Chacon 4.60
  5. Darren Oliver 5.04
If I recall correctly, Oliver was originally supposed to only be there until Denny Neagle returned from injury, but his effective use of a cut fastball combined with the ineffectiveness of Cruz, Neagle and others led him to be in the rotation the entire season and our winningest pitcher.

I bring this season up for a couple of reasons: 1) it was the first season with the humidor in use, and 2) it was the last season the Rockies opening day lineup consisted almost entirely of players past the free-agency barrier. Payton was in his last year of arbitration, but everybody else in the lineup was under large free agent type contracts, whether they tested the market or not.

Immediately there appears to be some lapse in player evaluation in putting this lineup together. These guys were all pretty much on the decline, or peaking that season. None of them -with the exception of Helton- would go on to be much more than quality role players in the future, and several would shortly after have their careers implode entirely. The rotation had a different problem, as Aaron Cook, Jason Jennings and Shawn Chacon were too young and inconsistent to be relied on to anchor an otherwise awful staff.

Since that opening day, the team has gone to an almost total build from within mode and the lineup has evolved to look something like this:

  1. Willy Taveras, 25
  2. Kaz Matsui, 31
  3. Garrett Atkins, 27
  4. Matt Holliday, 27
  5. Todd Helton, 33
  6. Brad Hawpe, 28
  7. Troy Tulowitzki, 22
  8. Chris Iannetta, 24
Basically with this post I want to figure out how you would mould the team for future success given this clay to work with. Keep in mind you have elite prospects at several positions and some pitching talent on the farm as well. Oh yeah, here's your rotation:
  1. Aaron Cook
  2. Jeff Francis
  3. Rodrigo Lopez
  4. Brian Lawrence
  5. Jason Hirsh/ Byung Hyun Kim/ Josh Fogg
Who do you try and sign to a long term deal? Who do you punt off immediately and what do you expect to get in return for them? I look at how contending teams have built their teams and there are some general rules of thumb that seem to pay off pretty well. So with these rules in mind, if I'm the GM, I'm only negotiating for a longer contract with two players from those two groups above right now (plus one reliever) with three or four others closely being considered:

1. Don't waste money on first basemen or corner outfielders in big long term contracts unless they're Albert Pujols/Barry Bonds special.

All the playoff teams had a slugger in at least one of the three (or four including the DH in the AL) offensive oriented positions, but only the Yankees had more than one on a big, long term contract. This eliminates Hawpe, Holliday and Jeff Baker from being aggressively chased. If they want to sign reasonable extensions that don't handcuff the future of the team, than I'd listen, but otherwise, I'll focus my energies elsewhere.

  1. If you've got a good shortstop, catcher or center-fielder, keep them. We probably have two of the three, but until they play a full season or two, it's pointless to negotiate long term. Tulo and Iannetta go on my closely watched list. Meanwhile, I'd try and get a solid prospect in a trade for Barmes.
  2. Signing a guy long term at third won't be as much of an albatross as at the other corners. Half of last season's playoff teams had stars at the hot corner (like David Wright, Alex Rodriguez and Scott Rolen) while others would trot out the likes of Nick Punto or Vinny Castilla, so it could go either way. If you've got a guy who can play third and hit like a first baseman, then it never hurts to try and sign them. Garrett Atkins is the only position player I'd be actively engaged in negotiating a contract extension with this season.
  3. Second base is meant for low offense, scrappy, easily replaceable players. Seriously. Of all of last season's playoff teams, only the Dodgers had a serious offensive threat at second, unless you count Jose Valentin's flukishly strong production for the Mets. In this respect, we're solid with our pair this year, but neither one gets consideration for a long term extension. This last point makes me envy Philadelphia and Milwaukee, as apparently second is the easiest position to get an offensive leg up on the competition. I hope one of the bunch of Wimberly, Jonathan Herrera, or EY Jr. step up to their potential soon, so we can take advantage of the talent vacuum, too.
  4. It's important to keep your pitching options open. The two New York teams tied a lot of salary to their rotations, while the others played it cool with the decks they'd been given. Most had one or two big ticket free agents in the starting staff, but all of them also relied heavily on young homegrown talent. A playoff rotation can be done on a build from within mode, as the Twins exhibited, but even the A's spent some money for innings eater Esteban Loaiza. For the Rockies, I'd look to extend Aaron Cook's contract next winter, but that's it right now. Wait, I forgot Brian Fuentes. Okay, that makes two pitchers I'm negotiating with plus Atkins for extensions. Fogg and Kim definitely seem on their way out without some atypically excellent performances, it's just a matter of timing at this point.
Alright, so if I was Dan O'Dowd planning for next winter's spending, extending Atkins, Fuentes and Cook would be big priorities. I'd also target Corey Patterson first, and if that fails, Torii Hunter as a plan B in center field, and another starter or two (Fogg adn Kim are already gone in this scenario) if Lawrence doesn't work out or if our prospects fail to develop. How much would this cost? Probably too much. I'm guessing the Cook, Atkins and Patterson contracts will each be in the $8-$12 million dollar per year range, with Cook at the higher end and Atkins at the lower end of that scale. Fuentes could be at the lower end of that range as well but I'd think he'd more likely be willing to sign a deal similar to the three year $21 million contract Keith Foulke got. It's still a lot of money, so to trim some excess and afford this at a $70 million cap, I'd have to trade Matt Holliday and Rodrigo Lopez for sure, and would be more aggressive in exploring for a new home for Todd Helton. I'd be less inclined to pull the trigger on trades for Fuentes and Cook, even if it seems like we won't be able to re-sign them after 2008, as I see them as more integral to our contending that season. I'd be careful to save some room to extend Tulowitzki and Iannetta when the time comes, so keeping within a salary limit remains important.

From reading between the lines of Rockies' officials, except for my interest in Patterson, this is mostly in line with what they're thinking. Cook is less of a priority for them than Fuentes and Atkins, but that will probably change by next October. There's a constant drumroll of pessimism in getting Holliday signed long term, and for the sake of the team, it seems best to prepare for his departure. A surprisingly strong season in 2007 could push the amount the team's able to spend higher, but it looks like more changes are on the way regardless next winter. At any rate, I'd be curious to hear other suggestions of who you'd sign, who you'd trade, and how you'd adjust the payroll to complete this puzzle.

0 recs | Comment 15 comments

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hmm...
I assume by playoff team, you are only considering the NL--Cano is a pretty good hitting 2B.

by DenverBears on Jan 25, 2007 4:48 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oops, I ignored Cano
Probably because I'm trying to blot out the memory of suggesting he wouldn't be a good return for Shawn Chacon at one point a couple of years ago. He's definitely a superb player, and someday I need to give him his deserved props.

by Rox Girl on Jan 26, 2007 6:56 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Contract terms important
Defining contracts:
Short term = This year (2007)
Medium term = plus next year with team option only on third allowed (2007,8 with option on 2009)
Long term = any guaranteed years beyond next year (2007,8,9,?)

Assuming your scenario succeeds it calls for  turnover at 3 of the 8 eight positions (left, right and second) and 3 of the 5 starting pitchers in 2008 or sooner.  And continues to do so for the forseeable future.  

Facing the reality that Holiday will, and should be, gone in 2007 or this upcoming offseason,  I am more concerned with allowing the both corner outfield positions to turn so frequently.  The Rockies, like other teams, rely on these positions for power and this usually requires some stability.  

We would then be filling these power positions with what I would presume to be homegrown, inexperienced, (Baker, Spilborghs, Salazar, Miller, Barker, Smith) talent or retreads looking for a second or third chance (Burnitz, Mohr).  

I would prefer to sign these slots to medium term contracts that have alternating renewal years. The idea would be test the homegrown talent then sign them through the other positions option year.  The fourth outfield position would be given extensive time to audition the next candidate.  You would also be looking to trade them as they enter their option year.

With Holiday getting traded in 2007, I could see signing Hawpe through 2008 with an option on 2009.  If Baker pans out, then 1) sign him through 2009, with an option, and play him in left, when Holiday leaves, 2) Spillbourghs, Salazar or Miller fill in  behind Baker 3) trade Hawpe after 2008.  If Baker does not work out, 1) dump him, 2) pick up Hawpe's  2009 option 3) sign the next one to a medium term contract (this of course assumes that Hawpe continues to perform).

Regarding Corey Patterson, at best he is a stop gap for Dexter Fowler.  Would not sign Patterson beyond 2008 and only if the price was right.  Assuming Fowler pans out, sign him to a long term contract.

Sign Tulo to a medium term contract at the end of 2007 (2008&9, with option for 10) and look to trade him before, the option year, as we have substantial talent behind him.

Sign Ianetta to a long term contract at the end of 2007, with option years beyond as we do not have substantial talent behind him.

Trade Helton as quickly as a reasonable deal can be reached (Rockies carry no more than half his contract per year and get a quality prospect).  Let Koshansky play, than sign to a short term contract only if he pans out.

Sign Garrett to a medium term contract only at the end of 2007.  Expect to trade him in 2009, for 2-3 quality prospects before his option year.  Stewart, Gomez or Herrara should be ready by then.

Play the hot hand at second and sign only short term contracts with Young or Wimberly.

I am ok with the starting pitching turnover, as it will allow more opportunity for our young talent.  I also agree that in 2008 we should change tactics from pursue numerous "cheap" 5th starters and pursue one expensive veteran 2nd-3rd starter.  With cheap now in the 3 to 4 million range (ie Fogg), it will probably amount to the same thing.

Most of our starting pitching should be on short term contracts.  None should ever be given a long term contract.  The 2 best would be given alternating medium term contracts, with the expectation of trades for prospects.

The bullpen should be almost exclusively on short terms contracts.  Fuentes only could have medium term contract.

by Drewan on Jan 25, 2007 5:47 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree, so long as Hawpe proves reasonable
I think Holliday's looking for superstar money, and he's likely to get it with Boras and his stats line, but thus far he's only been a very good player -and hasn't helped us at all versus our divisional rivals away from Coors- on offense, and a pretty bad one defensively. I think Hawpe's defense isn't great either except for his arm (no no no Hawpe in center field=disaster!) but he's getting better, whereas Holliday seems to have stagnated or regressed out there. I think Brad's hitting will proove more consistent this season and for the next two or three after that, and given that he'd be cheaper, I see him as a better alternative to extend than Holliday.

I am confident Baker will prove himself an adequate replacement for Matt even if our prospects don't. Jeff's line drive % last year on balls in play was quite high at both Colorado Springs and Denver all season, suggesting to me that he's taken a step forward in his ability to succeed against more advanced pitchers. I'm eager to see him in Spring and find out if that's true, but he might be our best corner outfielder right now anyway.

by Rox Girl on Jan 26, 2007 7:06 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In regards to Patterson
I agree about your sentiments regarding him as a stop gap, but I'd be willing to take a gamble on a longer term contract with him because of the value of his position. At the very worst, he flops completely and we'd have to eat some of the money to unload him, but he would have takers all along thanks to his age and relatively good health history. Otherwise, we'd be able to deal him for a considerable package of top grade prospects when the time comes if he even just stays the same player with an expected Coors Field bump. I see him as a more affordable alternative to Ichiro, who's going to get $150 million, or Andruw, who's lost his legs in center anyway.

by Rox Girl on Jan 26, 2007 7:13 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

WHO ARE.......
YOU GUYS?????

by 86 wins in 07 on Jan 25, 2007 6:19 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's Hope
None of the commentors or the originator of this thread have an influence at all.

by roxtalk on Jan 25, 2007 8:49 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

care to elaborate?
I'd be interested to hear your opinions on the subject.

by Rox Girl on Jan 26, 2007 6:54 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MY COMMENT WASN'T A DERISIVE COMMENT.......
only that the depth of their analysis demonstrates a frightening level of commitment for not being paid by the Rockies.....you guys should be in the $70,000 front office range.

by 86 wins in 07 on Jan 25, 2007 8:58 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

alternative theory
Or maybe we should just spend more time at our day jobs and less time following the Rockies organization.  ;)

by MADness on Jan 25, 2007 9:14 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

GM for a day
Long term contract:
Atkins...I think he's a rare hitter and very underrated.  I don't see Ian Stewart being ready yet...and we may need him in LF if he does

Medium contract: Kaz Matsui-This is very dependent on how he does this year, but how he does this year may want him to leave.  But like Rox Girl points out 2b offensive is a rarity.  Our depth are still a couple years away here.  I think Kaz will be a 25/25 guy this year.

Wait and see for pay raises:
Willie Taveras.  yep, I'm the only one on this site, that REALLY likes him on the team.  He does need to improve some stats, but I like him far better then Cory Patterson, or an aging Torii Hunter right NOW (seriously..Patterson or Hunter OVER taveras? geeze peoples opininons of Taveras is he's a suckier version of Sullivan)...and better then either of them in 3 years from now. His speed is something that will be almost imposible to replace, and a great weapon, if Hurdle and figure out to let him use it.  

Aaron Cook:  Established major league pitcher.  Not established as a dependable pitcher front of the rotation type guy, but I assume he will this year...but if he doesn't wow...then the rotation is even more of a concern (see below)

GONE:
Holliday-  I love him...but he's going to want stupid money.  Helton already gets stupid money, and I think we can move Holliday before his FA to get some talent.  I'm concerned about what we have for depth in the corner OF'ers  If it's in our budget to really step it up...Holliday would be it. Hawpe and Baker need to break out this year, and that determines how to handle Holliday.

Here's a surprise: I wouldn't get married to Fuentes.  Closers have a short shelf life. Especially lefties not named Hoffman.

Keep:
Helton-  I think he's got back issues that aren't going to get better, so it would make sense to unload him if that's the case.  However, he's worth the box office and seems to be a leader in the club house.  Which has value that don't show up on stat lines

Future money contracts:
Tulio: Way to young to waste big money on yet
Iannetta: ditto ...but at a thinner position in your organization, and in the major leagues

FA outside help: I'd spend big money on a Catcher or a SS if either one of our guys don't make it.  Up the middle fielding and hitting is a key to a winning team.  And are usually on the field leaders.  Catcher especially.  Difference maker catchers are rare and important.  Spending cash here makes sense.  See Ivan Rodriguez

Corpas/Ramerez: I like young hard throwing relievers....they can become closers or set up guys.  One (or both) should set forward this year, and would sign which ever does.

Which brings us to the area that needs the most help:  THE ROTATION

Francis: Already signed fairly long term
Cook: see above
Lawernce: Well, if he bounces back, then give him another year if possible. Though not more then what could be spent on the FA market for a scrap heap type pitcher.  Very replaceable
Fogg: he sucks
BK: he sucks too  
Rod. Lopez:  he sucks 3, and I expect him to be a waste in the rotation, like a Sunny Kim
(I don't think we are as deep at SP as we would like. mediocre vs young unproven potential...very scary)

Yout's: Hirsch, Jimenez, Rivera, Morallas, Morillo are all unknowns.  Though I expect at least 2 maybe 3 to be real major leaguers. (I think Hirsch and Jimenez will be stars!)  I only go fishing for FA long term guys if this group doesn't pan out AND if Cook doesn't set forward too.  

But throwing big money for starters in Coors Field can be very iffy.  I'd rather have our pitchers come up the system, and pitch in Col. Springs to adjust.  Humidor MAY throw this all out the window, and Coors may continue to play like the biggest park in the bigs (which it is).  If Coors is indeed a pitchers park now...then maybe we should spend some there for a #1 pitcher.

by Redhawk on Jan 26, 2007 9:32 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cliff Note Version:
1b Helton: Keep
2b Kaz: resign medium term, medium money
SS: Tulio: Too young to worry about
3b: Atkins: Resign LONG term
Back up: Carroll Already signed medium term
C: Iannetta Too young to worry about
FA: Big money impact guy if needed for SS or C
OF: Hawpe  Too young to worry about
OF: Baker Too young to worry about
CF: Tavares too young, but resign if he breaks out
OF: Holliday Resign big money if possible

P: Francis all ready signed
P: Cook: Wait and see...resign long term if he work
P: Lawrence:  Doesn't matter
P: Fogg: Trade
P: Kim: Trade
P: R. Lopez: Trade

Extend Copas Rameriez if possible

by Redhawk on Jan 26, 2007 9:44 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trevor Hoffman is right handed
Not that it changes your argument, but I have seen that error in a couple of places recently.

by Prospector on Jan 26, 2007 11:45 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice counter proposal
Perhaps you would mean Billy Wagner as a left handed reliever worth locking long term?

I wouldn't go anything over three years with Fuentes, and I don't expect him to be the closer for all of that time, but he's proven himself reliable and sharp for long enough that I think he's worth the three year deal. The reason I really like signing him is that free agent options for replacing him aren't as plentiful as you make it sound, and we have no left handers of his caliber in the system right now unless Brandon Durden moves to the pen. But you make a good arguement for not signing him, that's for sure.

I think going after #1 pitchers on the FA market is generally a bad idea unless you're a big market franchise because their contracts will prevent you from spending on up the middle positions. I think you have to develop your aces within, and focus on building quality rotation depth with your free agent dollars.

by Rox Girl on Jan 26, 2007 4:36 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scouts Inc.'s Keith Law
ranks the Rockies' farm system #2 in baseball, behind Tampa Bay.  That seems to be pretty universal these days.
I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Jan 26, 2007 1:57 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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