Helton to Beantown?
According to Troy Renck and the Denver Post this morning, the Rockies are pursuing trade talks with the Red Sox in a possible deal to ship out the face of the franchise. Manny Delcarmen and Craig Hansen are mentioned as possibilities to fill the parameter of "young pitching" although the returning players would depend on how much of Helton's remaining contract the Rockies were willing to eat. This rumor seems a bit more developed than others involving Todd this winter, as the slugger has been made aware of the negotiations and has expressed a willingness to waive his no-trade clause to play at Fenway.
Update [2007-1-27 16:32:32 by Rox Girl]:
With all the various sources piping their two cents in on this, I thought it would be wise to give a summary of where we've been told things are at:
Boston Receives: Todd Helton, sweet relief for getting rid of Mike Lowell and Julian Tavarez, and an undisclosed but agreed upon amount of cash, purportedly around worth half of Helton's remaining $91.1 million dollar contract.
Colorado Receives: Right now, diddly squat plus possibly Matt Clement who is worth slightly less than diddly squat.
We aren't going through with this deal, however, until we also receive Manny Delcarmen and Craig Hansen, which would make the crap Boston's trying to unload on us slightly more palatable, but not really.
0 recs |
70 comments
Comments
Wily Mo
In the short term, it would open up a spot for Brad Hawpe and Jeff Baker to play everyday until someone from the Seth Smith, Joe Koshansky, Ian Stewart trio starts pushing for playing time. Who knows.....Jeff Baker and Javy Lopez could be in a battle for the starting 1B job.
by sg8335aa on
Jan 27, 2007 8:08 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Certainly there has to be more to it
It's tricky trying to figure out a configuration that's really equitable to both teams centering around pitchers from Boston without including a Michael Bowden type of starter. I would go for Bowden or the other Buchholz, plus one of their group of top relief prospects (Delcarmen, Hansen and Bryce Cox) or two of that group plus an MLB player along the lines of Pena or Youkilis.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 27, 2007 9:08 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Wins in 07
Would the difference between RC by Delcarmen and Hansen vs RC by whoever we have in those roles now be greater than the RC delta between Helton and Koshansky (or between the net difference in the more complicated position swapping scenarios)?
One thing that I feel is overlooked when discussing Helton and the abundance of quality corner bats in our organization is the lack of flexibility that Helton has in terms of position.
If both Koshansky and Stewart are able to perform as hoped in the majors then the Rockies are in the enviable position of having Koshansky at 1st, Atkins at 3rd and Stewart in a corner outfield position which would provide 3 big bats in the lineup (in addition to whoever remains out of Hawpe, Baker and Holliday). If Koshansky doesn't pan out then Atkins can move to first and open up 3rd for Stewart or Baker.
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 12:55 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It's a good point,
The latest variations of this trade seem much more in line with what I would expect for Helton. The Rockies front office will be seriously putting their necks out on the line by trading Helton, and two relievers won't come close to appeasing the angry mobs. Hansen plus another top prospect like Ellsbury, Bowden or Buchholz would start to cover the gap, but even then we see that the Rockies are looking for one more part to bring back. With such a high price, this rumour still seems relatively fragile to me, despite the quality of the sources covering it.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 27, 2007 1:14 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
As a Sox & Rox fan,
Although, Hansen and Delcarmen both pitched in Boston, they were both rushed alittle and should have spent more time in AAA. Hansen came more highly touted, but Delcarmen was one of my favorite pitchers in AAA Pawtucket.
Maybe, Monfort can push the league to eliminate extra innings. Then we could have ties!!! The ultimate in mediocrity.
by 4thturn on
Jan 27, 2007 8:17 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
In the Rocky Mountain News
by Russ on
Jan 27, 2007 8:27 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
This version seems more likely,
I doubt that many Sox fans would be happy with this trade. Lowell has a great glove and hit a bunch of doubles off the wall at Fenway. I'd have to give the Rox the edge in this scenario.
by 4thturn on
Jan 27, 2007 9:35 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Never understand tradeing bad contracts
So I don't see how this helps the Rockies. We loose Helton, and his big contract. And get 2 marginal players and big contracts. And more startering pitching prospects...which we have a glut of as it is. Granted that's a good problem, and can be easily trade in the future to fill needs.
Which brings up how hard it's going to be to trade Helton
by Redhawk on
Jan 27, 2007 8:55 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
They might have bad contracts
by Russ on
Jan 27, 2007 10:00 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Not to mention
by Rox Fan in TN on
Jan 27, 2007 2:04 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Time to make lemonade?
The problem in negotiations may then lie in how each team perceives Helton. If the Rockies honestly believe Helton will experience a bounce-back in power, then they'll avoid such a deal in fear of selling low. The Red Sox could also make a legitimate claim that Helton's game is under natural regression, and wish to only pay market value. The money itself plays a large role, but this has been covered enough in the media that I won't need to get into it here. So what will need to happen to make this work?
For Helton to be dealt now, the Rockies would have to win the argument on Helton's value, even if it's only a minor win or compromise. If Helton is the only Rockie dealt, and the Rockies do in fact eat more than half of the contract, they should be able to add one prospect to the deal. Both Craig Hansen and Michael Bowden could be good targets, but I'd imagine both Ellsbury and Buchholz to be off limits. Why can the Rockies ask for this? For one, there's no way they can count a deal of Lowell and Tavarez as a win with the public. It would be a salary dump, and in three years, the Rockies would have no player from the dealt still under contract, but continue to pay for Helton's salary. I'm sure it would be seen as another in the long line of embarrasments for O'Dowd. The Rockies need AT LEAST one young player or prospect who could potentially make an impact to the roster while the Rockies pay out the remainding balance of there portion of the Helton contract.
So how would the Rockies turn these lemons to lemonade? They could start by trying to expand the deal with Boston. The Rockies could again request Coco Crisp and Craig Hansen to add to Lowell and Tavarez. In exchange, the Rockies would add Willy Taveras to the deal to offer Boston a replacement for Crisp, or serve as a defensive sub for a Ramirez-Drew-Pena outfield (which has more offensive impact than a Ramirez-Crisp-Drew outfield). If the Rockies are going to eat the majority of the Helton contract, they should expect a nicer package such as this.
Next, the Rockies should find a taker for Mike Lowell immediately. The rockies have no need for him. They could just move Baker to third, and Atkins to first. That might leave the bench a little thin at first glance, but I think a combination of Spilborghs and Mabry could absolve the expected production of Baker off the bench. The real protection lies in AAA. Should Baker not handle third, or keep up his offensive output, the Rockies would need one of Seth Smith, Ian Stewart, or Joe Koshansky to prove ready (Smith would move to right, Hawpe to first, Atkins back to third).
There should be takers for Lowell, starting with Los Angeles of Anaheim. Perhaps the Rockies could finally acquire Erik Aybar, who could open in a utility role, or even compete for second or center, and maybe a Tommy Mendoza. There are several clubs still in need of a third baseman, especially one with perceived ability of Lowell (overrated defense, streaky offense, fan favorite).
Basically, if the Rockies can add a prospect to the deal (a 3-1) and then flip Lowell for more, they could add the young talent they desire.
If only the Yankees weren't so frugal these days, we'd have a nice little bidding war...
by David "ohno" on
Jan 27, 2007 10:15 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Ken Rosenthal is reporting
by Russ on
Jan 27, 2007 10:28 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Well Rosy is the league's finest
If reality wasn't an issue, I'd take Josh Beckett for Helton straight up.
by David "ohno" on
Jan 27, 2007 10:49 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Why Todd Helton Must Remain in Denver
http://www.enkrates.com/blog/2007/01/27/why-todd-helton-must-remain-in-denver/
by enkrates on
Jan 27, 2007 12:06 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
helton's potential recovery
but what if i'm wrong? what if the regression really actually is just due to untimely injuries and a freak stomach parasite? if that's the case (and of course, my conclusion is based on pure speculation) and helton gets healthy and starts to get his power back, i would want o'dowd tarred and feathered were he to make any of the trade scenarios being discussed here. at the very least, let's start the season with him on the roster! if his numbers continue to mirror 2005 and 2006, it's not like his value will plummet or something. i'm sure we can still find a taker for him by the deadline. and if he starts to return to pre-2005 form, we're in a much better position. if we're contending we can keep him around. consider the impact he's having on holliday, atkins, and the rest of the young hitters. i'm not one to harp on intanglibles usually (i was terrified the rocks were going to waste money on erstad) but when you only have one everyday player with more than 4 years of experience in the league, you have to figure he's helping out the young guys at least a little bit. or, if he gets good again but we still want to deal him, who knows what we could get. i'm absolutely terrified theyre going to send him down the river when he's actually got 3-4 years of .320/30/120 let in him. not that that's likely... but it's definitely possible. and i refuse to come to games at an empty coors field this summer while he puts up those numbers in boston and we picked up tavares, lowell, and hansen for him. that possibility absolutely terrifies me.
by LarryB303 on
Jan 27, 2007 1:13 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Re:
That being said... your point was almost obscured by the needless and ugly steroid speculation of the first paragraph. What's your basis? The last two years have been Helton's worst, yes, but he's seen time on the DL in both campaigns, and he's long been known to have back pain that could be catching up to him. His power numbers are down, but they've been down across the board for Rockies hitters. The bottom line is that speculation without a semblance of proof is unbecoming in just about every way. Besides, can't guys just regress because of age and injury anymore? Brian Giles hasn't been the same hitter he used to be over the last two years: was he on steroids, too?
by Franchise26 on
Jan 27, 2007 1:30 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
take a deep breath
by LarryB303 on
Jan 27, 2007 1:55 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't buy the 'roid theory
I do agree that the names in the Ringolsby article are going to create a terrible backlash if they're the only return of the deal that goes through, but they were seemingly mentioned only as possible parts of a broader and better trade package.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 27, 2007 1:32 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
lowell = hot item??
as for taveras... jesus. i don't know what to say. are we sure a guy with a career 1.50 whip is a good exchange? really? our bullpen is fine. hansen would be a good pickup, but wouldn't save that potential deal. and even if we were to pick up that AA CF we're lusting after, that's not going to help now. and i hate coco crisp; i'm not high on taveras but a guy with a career .330 obp is not who we want leading off. i know this all seems very negative, but i'm passionate about this subject. this would be the most significant blow to my colorado sports teams fan-dom since terrell davis tore his knee up and was never the same. like i said in my original post, i'm already having nightmares about watching baseball tonight in july and hearing karl ravech saying "touch 'em all, todd helton! already his 20th and we're only halfway through the season. great pickup for the red sox."
by LarryB303 on
Jan 27, 2007 2:10 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Olney sez
by Franchise26 on
Jan 27, 2007 1:42 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Ummmm... why?
by Rox Fan in TN on
Jan 27, 2007 2:05 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Wait... never mind
by Rox Fan in TN on
Jan 27, 2007 2:08 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Clement
by lgh77 on
Jan 27, 2007 3:03 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Where would we put him?
Yeah, I'm still skeptical of this thing because the Red Sox seem to be wanting the best of all possible worlds here, and unless they are willing to give up something of actual value to the Rockies, I don't see why we would continue to pay Todd for the privilege of taking the Red Sox back to glory.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 27, 2007 1:54 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Contract length
Rather than flat-out paying x portion of Helton's salary (it seems inconceivable that we can find a trade where we pay none of his salary) the Rockies might wish to pay a smaller portion outright and take back undesirable salaries in return.
Instead of paying 10 million per year for Todd to play in Boston we might pay 6 million per year and take on the contracts of Lowell and Tavarez. This only works if we value the contributions of Lowell and Tavarez or if we see an opportunity to turn around and unload either the contracts of said players or to get a desired prospect or player in return for them.
Any Helton trade looks to be....complicated....to say the least.
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 2:25 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Re: contract length
by lgh77 on
Jan 27, 2007 2:31 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
acording weei boston
by jaxROXdisciple on
Jan 27, 2007 2:17 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Re:
According to this story the Rox want both Hansen and Delcarmen but the Sox are unwilling to part with either: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2745139
by Franchise26 on
Jan 27, 2007 2:22 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Holliday, Atkins???
by Hometown Hopeful on
Jan 27, 2007 2:23 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Atkins certainly
by Franchise26 on
Jan 27, 2007 2:26 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
They better
by Knepster on
Jan 27, 2007 2:50 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Updated Olney post
by lgh77 on
Jan 27, 2007 2:26 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Let's just say...
by Franchise26 on
Jan 27, 2007 2:28 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Yeah, I just updated the main post
by Rox Girl on
Jan 27, 2007 2:34 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Again, some patience.
For starters, I don't see Mike Lowell hanging around in Colorado through the season, if he even makes it to spring training with the team. If he can be turned into an additional prospect, this might not look so bad.
I think too many fans here are afraid to trade the memories of Todd Helton, but not the present and future Helton. Suppose Helton was to have a bounce back this season, how long would it last? He's approaching 34, so the decline will only restart shortly.
Getting two prospects and two major leaguers, one that could become another prospect, doesn't look that bad if it means flexibility and stability in the future. Some of this savings could be plugged into the signing budget for the draft, allowing the Rockies to go overslot in a few rounds to restock the lower levels. It isn't just about the players.
Again, all the Rockies need are solid additional prospects that can make an impact through the majority of Helton's deal. The fan base is already down, and everyone knows that winning, not one aging superstar, is what brings fans to the park. If you don't believe it, just look at the Avs, who have lost their sellout streak and have incurred more empty seats as the team struggles, depsite having Sakic still in tow.
So relax, the Rockies won't just take Lowell and Tavarez. They're going to get some young talent, whether they get it all from Boston or from elsewhere with Lowell.
by David "ohno" on
Jan 27, 2007 2:46 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
I agree
The vast majority of fans haven't yet bought into the strength (and value) of the Rockie's farm system.
There isn't a whole lot of good will for the Rockies to lose in the first place so avoiding a healthy deal in order to avoid losing a fictional property is pretty foolish, IMO.
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 2:50 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
There is only
by Knepster on
Jan 27, 2007 2:53 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I trust O'Dowd, actually
by Rox Girl on
Jan 27, 2007 2:53 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
My thoughts exactly
by David "ohno" on
Jan 27, 2007 3:06 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
And by real
I would not be dissapointed with a Lowell/Hansen/Tavarez/Delcarmen deal if we then spun off Lowell.
by David "ohno" on
Jan 27, 2007 3:09 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Elephant in the room
If Helton had a desirable contract (from a team point of view) then we would be talking about a Tejada or Baldelli package of prospects rather than anything that is actually being proposed.
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 3:07 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
that doesnt make sense
by LarryB303 on
Jan 27, 2007 6:23 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Which proves my point
An impact player with a favorable contract holds incredible value and is unlikely to be traded.
I still contend that the contract is the most important factor in this trade - more specifically that the negative value of said contract excedes the positive value of Helton's talent and abilities.
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 6:44 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
This same post has exactly six comments to it
by Prospector on
Jan 27, 2007 3:09 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
From Thomas Harding
by Russ on
Jan 27, 2007 3:21 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
<cry of despair>
How realistically is this going to happen? Say it ain't so, Joe.
by Squeaky on
Jan 27, 2007 6:02 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Agree.
Let's just say if this deal is made, my already low opinion of O'Dowd is going to take a major hit.
by Silverblood on
Jan 27, 2007 6:37 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
One thing no one has mentioned
by Russ on
Jan 27, 2007 6:49 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Monfort
I have no clue how that will impact this or future management decisions.
Things could get scary if he starts meddling. :(
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 6:59 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Scary thought
As bad as O'Dowd is in the eyes of some fans, he still is a far superior option to any modern owner when it comes to the duties involved in running a franchise.
by MADness on
Jan 27, 2007 7:00 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
now THAT'S an owner
by LarryB303 on
Jan 28, 2007 9:02 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I can understand Monfort's discomfort
by enkrates on
Jan 27, 2007 6:59 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
what about the issue of LH bats
by smokinRox on
Jan 27, 2007 8:03 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Thoughts
If I was O'Dowd, I might even start calling up other teams. Try and get a bidding war started. The Angels package looked pretty good. The Yankees could always use another big contract.
And if we do trade Todd, the money we save had better go to extending Atkins and others. If it's just more money in Monfort's pocket than forget it.
by avsfan4ever33 on
Jan 28, 2007 8:00 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
1 Problem
There's apparently a "short list" of teams where he'd approve a deal. Boston is one of those teams....also it was mentioned that the Atlanta Braves were another one of those teams.
My guess is that he'd prefer to got to the East Coast (or Midwest). No word if the Yankees would be one of those teams.
by sg8335aa on
Jan 28, 2007 9:18 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Commentary from the Boston side...
A trade with possibilities
Helton would be intriguing acquisition
TODD HELTON Huge numbers
By Nick Cafardo | January 28, 2007
Maybe his home run production has diminished. Maybe he's amassed impressive numbers in a great hitter's park, Coors Field. But I must admit, I am utterly fascinated by the prospect of Todd Helton in the Red Sox lineup.
No offense to Craig Hansen, but if that's all it takes to acquire Helton, a number of Red Sox fans would offer to drive the young righthander to the airport and send him to the Mile High City with a pat on the back.
When I first heard of Sox-Rockies talks back in November -- mostly about a Manny Ramírez-Helton swap -- it was an interesting idea, but a wash in some ways. Now that the talks don't include Ramírez (at least, that's the word from a couple of major league sources) and the Sox are looking at a batting order with David Ortiz, Ramírez, J.D. Drew, and Helton -- that gets your attention.
Major league sources told me yesterday that the Red Sox aren't jumping through hoops to make this deal. It's been proposed to them by the Rockies. The Sox love the concept, but they won't do anything that stretches their boundaries financially or means giving up prominent young players.
According to a Rockies official, they would have to get one or two young players who would make an impact in the near future. Colorado doesn't want to lose the popular Helton, take on a veteran at the end of his contract, and a year later have nothing to show for it.
"They [Red Sox] like their team as it's constituted," said one of the sources. "It would be surprising if they gave up young pitching. Helton would be a great hitter in that ballpark and he's their type of player in that he's patient and he'll work the count."
Helton is 33 and has five years remaining on his deal at $90.1 million (including a $4.6 million buyout for 2012). There is concern that as he ages, he'll decline to where his production doesn't match what you're paying him.
Presumably, the Red Sox wouldn't be against giving up Mike Lowell (possibly to San Diego for a reliever such as Scott Linebrink) and moving Kevin Youkilis to third. Or they might get Colorado to bite on Lowell; the Rockies already are interested in Julian Tavarez. That way, the Sox could keep their young pitchers, but you have to think Colorado would need at least one young pitcher in a package deal.
But imagine this lineup:
SS Julio Lugo
RF J.D. Drew
DH David Ortiz
LF Manny Ramírez
1B Todd Helton
3B Kevin Youkilis
C Jason Varitek
CF Coco Crisp
2B Dustin Pedroia
Helton, who has a no-trade clause but is willing to consider a Red Sox deal, according to Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News reports, has won three Gold Gloves at first base. He has the highest career batting average among active players (.333). He won a batting title in 2000 hitting .372, and he has a lifetime on-base percentage of .430 and slugging percentage of .593.--But he has battled back problems for a few years and his home run totals dropped to 20 and 15 the last two years.
The Red Sox wouldn't want to assume all of the money remaining on Helton's deal. The Rockies are willing to kick in some money in a trade -- as much as half, according to a major league source -- but it was unclear whether that applies to the Red Sox at this juncture. If the Red Sox were able to move Lowell, that would be $9 million off the books, which would help in taking on Helton's $16.6 million salary for '07.
The Red Sox have been reluctant to part with young pitching after giving up Anibal Sanchez and Cla Meredith, who have been successful in Florida and San Diego. A Roy Oswalt deal was squashed at the trading deadline last year when the Sox wouldn't give up young pitching. But they've built up their bullpen this winter -- though they're still without an established closer.
If Helton came aboard, the Sox offense could be lights-out. Couple that with one of the most solid starting rotations in baseball, and the pressure on the bullpen could be greatly eased.
The Red Sox aren't commenting on the Helton reports, and efforts to reach Colorado GM Dan O'Dowd were unsuccessful. But there have been talks, and there may be more this week.
Right now, the concept is intriguing, but from what we're being told, the Red Sox would need a lot more nudging before they'd do it.
by DeepPurple on
Jan 28, 2007 9:10 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
What about Manny?
2 trades that make sense to me:
Lowell (Bad Contract) + Jacoby Ellsbury + one of either Hansen or Delcarmen (and possibly J. Tavares if he's a negative to the Red Sox) for Helton and Cash.
Or Helton for Manny + either cash or Lowell as Manny is older then Helton. See Woody Page's article on Manny for Helton:
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5102928
He sums it up basicly saying that Manny is the only person that will make it look like the Rockies are willing and trying to win the division that Monfort has said is the goal. (even though the Monforts and O'Dowd have said .500/mediocare is a lofty goal to shoot for...WHOO HOOOO!!!)
This looks like a Monfort driven fire sale to me. They want Helton's contract off the books. Period. Good trade be damned. I think Boston's offer shows they think that too. Personally I don't see any way a trade of Helton helps this team win this year. Or years down the road. It shows to me that ownership has no money. Period. They are broke. They can't afford to field a major league team, and pay a star player's contract. If this goes though as it looks now then the Rockies ARE the Royals, D-Rays and Pirates and not the A's or Twins
by Redhawk on
Jan 28, 2007 9:32 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Disagree.....
by sg8335aa on
Jan 28, 2007 9:33 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Only if.....
- the Rockies ACTUALLY do that. I've see little attempt on the Rockies to spend money on contracts that are near market value. See: Jason Jennings, Matt Holiday & Todd Helton (and yeah, I think market value this year was nuts too...but that's the price of doing business, and I think Holliday and Jennings want the free market place bidding regardless)
- When? When do the Rockies plan to win? Not this year. Next Year? The year after? It wasn't last year, or the year before. And I may be looking through Purple Colored glasses, but I think the Rockies have a shot at winning (the NL West anyway, if the Dodgers have injuries, etc) this year
by Redhawk on
Jan 28, 2007 9:41 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Thanks Monfort!!!
Monfort needs to stick to what he knows, steaks and ground beef, and leave baseball ownership to someone that knows baseball.
by cofan17 on
Jan 28, 2007 12:22 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Hear hear!!!
by Squeaky on
Jan 28, 2007 6:51 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I may be alone here,
by DenverBears on
Jan 28, 2007 7:19 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Latest from RMN:
My Take:
Kudos to O'Dowd for his firm offer. The Rockies will cover less than half of Helton's deal, and expect to receive one prime prospect in return. Before everyone balks at the offer, consider that Lowell's expected production (with a Coors bump in average) may not be terribly far off from what Todd would do here. The actual difference in production last year was almost a win and a half, so nothing's getting mailed in.
I laughed when I read how the Rockies would "consider" Lester, as he may be the best player of the six. I'm not up to speed completely on his recovery, but last I remember they were hoping he could go from the start. Personally, if we're only getting one, let's take Manny Delcarmen off that list. He doesn't seem much different than Ramon Ramirez. Everything else looks good from there.
For those that are looking at this as a baseball deal (and not strictly from a fan's perspective), I think the hardest thing to grasp is the impact of the salary relief, because it can't be quantified in expected production or wins, nor can webe sure where the money will go. It is only fair that we assume that money will be poured back into the team, or else the Rockies are finished as a professional franchise. It's okay to burn some bridges now if you truely believe that you can take the salary relief and add stability to the rest of the roster, in hopes of buying future wins. Burn those bridges and pocket the money, and you sink your franchise. Rockies fans aren't Pirates fans, the club has no long standing history to retain fans like Pittsburgh. If Monfort plans on having a payroll in the 40 million range for the next few years, The Rockies will just become the Expos, not even an afterthought in its own city. Monfort understands the risk of dealing Helton, and if this team means anything to him, even if its sole purpose is to make a profit, he'll put the money back in to stay competitive. He cannot afford to do otherwise.
As for the current deal at hand, I think it is a good start. The Rockies would get back a player not only worthy of making their top ten prospect list but also playing a role in the team's present. With Lowell, they'd also get a player that could have further value in trade. I found most of Paige's article today to have little value, but he does make a good point about Ensberg, who has serious bounce back potential and could make a better bridge to the arrival of Stewart (or Koshansky). The Rockies don't really need the salary relief at this very secod, so they could pay the difference in Lowell's salary to acquire Ensberg, as that money was earmarked for use as is.
With the significant amount of money involved in this deal, the Rockies can't be picky, but they also can't just give Helton away. That's why they have made a fair offer in my opinion, and as O'Dowd showed in the Jennings deal, he will stand firm on that offer with little concession.
Finally, try to bare in mind that the Rockies are not trading Todd Helton of late 90's/early 00's, they are trading the aging, declining (steadily the past two years) Helton. It's hard to make a claim that keeping him is what's in the best interests of the team for future competition, since his salary likely prohibits the retention of most of the homegrown talent. It should also be noted that Boston might be the only avenue to deal Helton. St. Louis has no need for a first baseman, Atlanta is slicing payroll down, and Helton has already noted a decline in heading to the other big pocket franchise, Anaheim. That basically leaves both New York's and Boston (Helton would likely turn down Baltimore, Texas has no need, Helton isn't heading to a division rival). The Mets have Delgado, and the Yankees have avoided recent major payroll additions. It's hard to find another taker, not just now, but a year or two down the road. So it isn't so easy to say just hang on to him until a better deal comes around, because chances are, it won't.
So, if Boston budges, the moves is a good one. If they won't, then we'll just have to cross our fingers that a miracle happens and age trends and years of studies on career trends are suddenly reversed, or a surprising buyer comes along that matches the wants of both Helton and the Rockies. As contradictory as this all may sound, that's the situation the rockies find themselves in.
by David "ohno" on
Jan 28, 2007 8:50 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
My apologies for rambling
by David "ohno" on
Jan 28, 2007 8:51 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
RMN article
Ringolsby doesn't seem to know a whole lot about this situation or the prospects involved. Seems like a lot of speculation and guessing by the Cowboy. You can automatically cross off 4 out of the 6 prospects he mentioned.
John Lester? The Sox wouldn't trade him even if the Rox threw in Fuentes.
Jacoby Ellsbury? The Sox aren't giving him up. He's probably untouchable.
Clay Buchholz? No way.... same deal as Ellsbury.
Daniel Bard? Can't be traded until September. No chance.
So....
Delcarmen (who isn't that good) or Hansen (whom the Sox are reluctant to give up) + Tavarez and Lowell for Helton.....
This trade is not happening (which is probably a good thing). Too many moving parts, too many discrepancies.
by malakian on
Jan 28, 2007 10:06 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Good article by Rosenthal
And I agree with him.
At the beginning of this, I was all for a deal. But after we've gotten more information on the players involved, money, etc, I'm very much against a Helton deal right now.
by avsfan4ever33 on
Jan 29, 2007 6:42 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Thanks for the link..and I agree
Next year? great then they can respend Todd's saving, which won't be all THAT much if the Rockies will be paying Half his salary anyway.
by Redhawk on
Jan 29, 2007 8:31 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Glad the Helton deal is off
vr, Xei
by Xeifrank on
Jan 29, 2007 10:17 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs












