Purple Row: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: Backing the Pack for NC State Fans!


Helton to Beantown?

According to Troy Renck and the Denver Post this morning, the Rockies are pursuing trade talks with the Red Sox in a possible deal to ship out the face of the franchise. Manny Delcarmen and Craig Hansen are mentioned as possibilities to fill the parameter of "young pitching" although the returning players would depend on how much of Helton's remaining contract the Rockies were willing to eat. This rumor seems a bit more developed than others involving Todd this winter, as the slugger has been made aware of the negotiations and has expressed a willingness to waive his no-trade clause to play at Fenway.

Update [2007-1-27 16:32:32 by Rox Girl]:

With all the various sources piping their two cents in on this, I thought it would be wise to give a summary of where we've been told things are at:

Boston Receives: Todd Helton, sweet relief for getting rid of Mike Lowell and Julian Tavarez, and an undisclosed but agreed upon amount of cash, purportedly around worth half of Helton's remaining $91.1 million dollar contract.

Colorado Receives: Right now, diddly squat plus possibly Matt Clement who is worth slightly less than diddly squat.

We aren't going through with this deal, however, until we also receive Manny Delcarmen and Craig Hansen, which would make the crap Boston's trying to unload on us slightly more palatable, but not really.

0 recs | Comment 70 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Wily Mo
You'd have to wonder if Wily Mo or the "Greek God of Walks" would also be included in that type of deal......

In the short term, it would open up a spot for Brad Hawpe and Jeff Baker to play everyday until someone from the Seth Smith, Joe Koshansky, Ian Stewart trio starts pushing for playing time.  Who knows.....Jeff Baker and Javy Lopez could be in a battle for the starting 1B job.  

by sg8335aa on Jan 27, 2007 8:08 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Certainly there has to be more to it
Unless Boston is eating Helton's entire salary with the trade, I wouldn't pull the trigger on a Hansen plus Delcarmen for Todd deal. The very best bullpen duo in the NL last year, Takashi Saito and Jonathan Broxton for the Dodgers combined for 120 pitching runs created (most came in considerably lower), while Helton in a down season accounted for 109 RC by himself. Since neither pitcher is that proven (Delcarmen and Hansen last season combined for 29 PRC) yet, it seems unlikely to me that their combined output could equal what we'd lose in giving up Helton for several seasons, perhaps even the duration of Todd's contract and there's no guarantee that Hansen will pan out, given his struggles in the majors thus far.

It's tricky trying to figure out a configuration that's really equitable to both teams centering around pitchers from Boston without including a Michael Bowden type of starter. I would go for Bowden or the other Buchholz, plus one of their group of top relief prospects (Delcarmen, Hansen and Bryce Cox) or two of that group plus an MLB player along the lines of Pena or Youkilis.

by Rox Girl on Jan 27, 2007 9:08 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wins in 07
While selling a trade to fans is an entirely different issue, this proposed trade could result in better on the field performance for the Rockies in 07 (and beyond).

Would the difference between RC by Delcarmen and Hansen vs RC by whoever we have in those roles now be greater than the RC delta between Helton and Koshansky (or between the net difference in the more complicated position swapping scenarios)?

One thing that I feel is overlooked when discussing Helton and the abundance of quality corner bats in our organization is the lack of flexibility that Helton has in terms of position.

If both Koshansky and Stewart are able to perform as hoped in the majors then the Rockies are in the enviable position of having Koshansky at 1st, Atkins at 3rd and Stewart in a corner outfield position which would provide 3 big bats in the lineup (in addition to whoever remains out of Hawpe, Baker and Holliday).  If Koshansky doesn't pan out then Atkins can move to first and open up 3rd for Stewart or Baker.

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 12:55 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's a good point,
But I think to ensure equitable exchanges you have to compare the traded players in a vacuum even though you keep the fill-ins for vacancies created by that trade in mind outside that vacuum.

The latest variations of this trade seem much more in line with what I would expect for Helton. The Rockies front office will be seriously putting their necks out on the line by trading Helton, and two relievers won't come close to appeasing the angry mobs. Hansen plus another top prospect like Ellsbury, Bowden or Buchholz would start to cover the gap, but even then we see that the Rockies are looking for one more part to bring back. With such a high price, this rumour still seems relatively fragile to me, despite the quality of the sources covering it.

by Rox Girl on Jan 27, 2007 1:14 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a Sox & Rox fan,
this doesn't make much sense for either team.  Boston has a good, young, firstbaseman and Colorado has some young pitchers that may be on the verge of breaking through to the majors.  The only plus for anyone is that Monfort can dump the big contract, in his ongoing quest for mediocrity.  

Although, Hansen and Delcarmen both pitched in Boston, they were both rushed alittle and should have spent more time in AAA.  Hansen came more highly touted, but Delcarmen was one of my favorite pitchers in AAA Pawtucket.

Maybe, Monfort can push the league to eliminate extra innings.  Then we could have ties!!!  The ultimate in mediocrity.  

by 4thturn on Jan 27, 2007 8:17 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In the Rocky Mountain News
Ringolsby writes that Julian Tavarez and Mike Lowell could be part of a deal to offset the money. He also writes that the acquisition of Lowell would move Atkins back to first most likely.

by Russ on Jan 27, 2007 8:27 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This version seems more likely,
as the Sox would move Youkilis back to third.

I doubt that many Sox fans would be happy with this trade.  Lowell has a great glove and hit a bunch of doubles off the wall at Fenway.  I'd have to give the Rox the edge in this scenario.

by 4thturn on Jan 27, 2007 9:35 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Never understand tradeing bad contracts
for other bad contracts. Tavarez is a nice reliever, though not young, and over paid for a middle reliever.  Mike Lowell...I just don't know.  I think his best years are behind him and also with a huge contract.

So I don't see how this helps the Rockies.  We loose Helton, and his big contract.  And get 2 marginal players and big contracts.  And more startering pitching prospects...which we have a glut of as it is.  Granted that's a good problem, and can be easily trade in the future to fill needs.

Which brings up how hard it's going to be to trade Helton

by Redhawk on Jan 27, 2007 8:55 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They might have bad contracts
but they are only bad contracts for one year each.

by Russ on Jan 27, 2007 10:00 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to mention
where would Lowell play?  Though, the obvious move would be to play him at third and move Atkins to first.
I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Jan 27, 2007 2:04 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Time to make lemonade?
When you look at the rumored parts to this deal, the Rockies return looks a little underwhelming, especially for fans that would like younger, potential-oriented talent for the former/current face of the franchise.  The problem is when you start to look at the numbers.  When you combine the VORP numbers of both Lowell and Tavarez (as a practice, you shouldn't combine VORP to measure the exact replacement impact, but it's still a good measuring stick), their score tops 32, roughly one point higher than Helton.  That would suggest that the package of Tavarez and Lowell would represent equitable on field value for Todd Helton.

The problem in negotiations may then lie in how each team perceives Helton.  If the Rockies honestly believe Helton will experience a bounce-back in power, then they'll avoid such a deal in fear of selling low.  The Red Sox could also make a legitimate claim that Helton's game is under natural regression, and wish to only pay market value.  The money itself plays a large role, but this has been covered enough in the media that I won't need to get into it here.  So what will need to happen to make this work?

For Helton to be dealt now, the Rockies would have to win the argument on Helton's value, even if it's only a minor win or compromise.  If Helton is the only Rockie dealt, and the Rockies do in fact eat more than half of the contract, they should be able to add one prospect to the deal.  Both Craig Hansen and Michael Bowden could be good targets, but I'd imagine both Ellsbury and Buchholz to be off limits.  Why can the Rockies ask for this?  For one, there's no way they can count a deal of Lowell and Tavarez as a win with the public.  It would be a salary dump, and in three years, the Rockies would have no player from the dealt still under contract, but continue to pay for Helton's salary.  I'm sure it would be seen as another in the long line of embarrasments for O'Dowd.  The Rockies need AT LEAST one young player or prospect who could potentially make an impact to the roster while the Rockies pay out the remainding balance of there portion of the Helton contract.

So how would the Rockies turn these lemons to lemonade?  They could start by trying to expand the deal with Boston.  The Rockies could again request Coco Crisp and Craig Hansen to add to Lowell and Tavarez.  In exchange, the Rockies would add Willy Taveras to the deal to offer Boston a replacement for Crisp, or serve as a defensive sub for a Ramirez-Drew-Pena outfield (which has more offensive impact than a Ramirez-Crisp-Drew outfield).  If the Rockies are going to eat the majority of the Helton contract, they should expect a nicer package such as this.

Next, the Rockies should find a taker for Mike Lowell immediately.  The rockies have no need for him.  They could just move Baker to third, and Atkins to first.  That might leave the bench a little thin at first glance, but I think a combination of Spilborghs and Mabry could absolve the expected production of Baker off the bench.  The real protection lies in AAA.  Should Baker not handle third, or keep up his offensive output, the Rockies would need one of Seth Smith, Ian Stewart, or Joe Koshansky to prove ready (Smith would move to right, Hawpe to first, Atkins back to third).  

There should be takers for Lowell, starting with Los Angeles of Anaheim.  Perhaps the Rockies could finally acquire Erik Aybar, who could open in a utility role, or even compete for second or center, and maybe a Tommy Mendoza.  There are several clubs still in need of a third baseman, especially one with perceived ability of Lowell (overrated defense, streaky offense, fan favorite).  

Basically, if the Rockies can add a prospect to the deal (a 3-1) and then flip Lowell for more, they could add the young talent they desire.

If only the Yankees weren't so frugal these days, we'd have a nice little bidding war...

by David "ohno" on Jan 27, 2007 10:15 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ken Rosenthal is reporting
that Lowell is not in the trade and that while the Rockies are more than likely targeting Ellsbury, he won't be in the deal.

by Russ on Jan 27, 2007 10:28 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well Rosy is the league's finest
He also doesn't exactly shut down the Jacoby Ellsbury requests, though.  I'd have imagine the Rockies are requesting either him or Crisp, who has long been a target.

If reality wasn't an issue, I'd take Josh Beckett for Helton straight up.

by David "ohno" on Jan 27, 2007 10:49 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ellsbury
I don't imagine that I am the only one who would need to change to a fresh pair of shorts if Ellsbury was somehow included in a trade. ;)

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 11:05 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why Todd Helton Must Remain in Denver
I wrote a post at my blog on this possible trade. As a Rockies fan and Red Sox fan, I think this trade would be a disaster for the Rockies, no matter what they get back from Boston.

http://www.enkrates.com/blog/2007/01/27/why-todd-helton-must-remain-in-denver/

by enkrates on Jan 27, 2007 12:06 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

helton's potential recovery
much as it has pained me, because i like him so much and he truly is the all-time face of the franchise (i'm putting him in ahead of dante, andres, and even vinny), i have come to the reluctant conclusion over the course of the past couple years that he was a steroid user of some kind.  the regression and injuries were just too well timed with the start of testing to convince me otherwise.  it was only furthered when the story came out about what's-his-face, that former rockies announcer, saying helton was a user at some point.  yes, i know helton refuted it and the guy took what he said back.  yes i know helton is huge in the community and seems like a genuine class act on and off the field.  still, i've decided that at least at some point prior to 2005 he was on the juice.

but what if i'm wrong?  what if the regression really actually is just due to untimely injuries and a freak stomach parasite?  if that's the case (and of course, my conclusion is based on pure speculation) and helton gets healthy and starts to get his power back, i would want o'dowd tarred and feathered were he to make any of the trade scenarios being discussed here.  at the very least, let's start the season with him on the roster!  if his numbers continue to mirror 2005 and 2006, it's not like his value will plummet or something.  i'm sure we can still find a taker for him by the deadline.  and if he starts to return to pre-2005 form, we're in a much better position.  if we're contending we can keep him around.  consider the impact he's having on holliday, atkins, and the rest of the young hitters.  i'm not one to harp on intanglibles usually (i was terrified the rocks were going to waste money on erstad) but when you only have one everyday player with more than 4 years of experience in the league, you have to figure he's helping out the young guys at least a little bit.  or, if he gets good again but we still want to deal him, who knows what we could get.  i'm absolutely terrified theyre going to send him down the river when he's actually got 3-4 years of .320/30/120 let in him. not that that's likely... but it's definitely possible.  and i refuse to come to games at an empty coors field this summer while he puts up those numbers in boston and we picked up tavares, lowell, and hansen for him.  that possibility absolutely terrifies me.

Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Jan 27, 2007 1:13 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re:
I agree with the premise of your second paragraph - namely, that the trade market for Todd can only go up if he can show some recovery from last season's illness, and that it would be much easier for the 'casual fan base' to swallow a Helton deal at mid-season of another mediocre campaign than before what the ownership believes can be a winning season. If you think you can win, and by all media accounts the Monforts and O'Dowd do, why trade your all-time best player before the season starts? Doesn't make much sense.

That being said... your point was almost obscured by the needless and ugly steroid speculation of the first paragraph. What's your basis? The last two years have been Helton's worst, yes, but he's seen time on the DL in both campaigns, and he's long been known to have back pain that could be catching up to him. His power numbers are down, but they've been down across the board for Rockies hitters. The bottom line is that speculation without a semblance of proof is unbecoming in just about every way. Besides, can't guys just regress because of age and injury anymore? Brian Giles hasn't been the same hitter he used to be over the last two years: was he on steroids, too?

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Jan 27, 2007 1:30 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

take a deep breath
first of all it's certainly ugly, but not needless.  don't be so offended; i put in the part about loving todd (i wouldn't look down on him or want him out of town were it true that he used) as a sincere disclaimer.  i'm just saying it's worth asking and pondering the question.  also, this isn't specualtion without "a semblance" of proof.  we know for a fact that steroid use was at least somewhat common in baseball leading up to 2005.  we know for a fact that todd's numbers (which were extremely high until steroids were banned) suffered a sharp decline the first season they were banned.  it's very very sketchy, but it's not completely out of left field.  i consider those two facts enough of a case to at least warrant suspicion.  you're burying your head in the sand if you're not willing to think about it.  i like how you bring up brian giles in a defensive manner, as if you're thinking, "well, this guy isn't crazy enough to suggest someone the likes of brian giles was on steroids, is he?"  almost as if your question is rhetorical because its answer is so obviously no.  but i'm going to go out on a limb and say yeah, it's worth at least CONSIDERING that MAYBE anyone whose stats suffered a sharp decline in 2005 and 2006 after years and years of being excellent MIGHT have been on steroids.  call me crazy.  in todd's case, yes, i know rockies' stats have been down across the board.  but the injuries i consider to be something that hurts todd's case, not help it, due to the established links between usage and increased vulnerability to injury.  and if that's the case, he'll probably struggle to play 140 games again this year, because that kind damage usually doesn't heal itself very easily.  bottom line, don't act like the topic's not worth consideration.  doing that is unbecoming of anyone who wants to rationally discuss the changing landscape of baseball during the last 5 years or so.
Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Jan 27, 2007 1:55 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't buy the 'roid theory
While it's possible, Helton's power decline fits a natural age related model, and given the humidor, his back, and the gastro-intestinal disorder which was bad enough to hospitalize him, I don't see it the same way. It's unfortunate that this age has made thigs so murky, though.

I do agree that the names in the Ringolsby article are going to create a terrible backlash if they're the only return of the deal that goes through, but they were seemingly mentioned only as possible parts of a broader and better trade package.

by Rox Girl on Jan 27, 2007 1:32 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lowell = hot item??
don't the red sox have ANYone in their system who can take his place?  no one?  they don't have a single corner guy who can take his at bats and do the same/more with them?  the reason i ask this so increduously is because i have a hard time believing lowell is a hot item for someone like the angels, to whom we would pass him were he acquired.  no, his numbers weren't atrocious last year, but he definitely benefitted from his lineup and perhaps moreso his home stadium.  he'd be unlikely to put up those numbers hitting with vlad guerrero and... um... gary matthews?  jaun riveria?  howie kendrick?  doesn't have the same ring to it as ramirez and ortiz.  beyond that, are we sure aybar (presuming we actually could pick him up for lowell) can play 2B?  

as for taveras... jesus.  i don't know what to say.  are we sure a guy with a career 1.50 whip is a good exchange?  really?  our bullpen is fine.  hansen would be a good pickup, but wouldn't save that potential deal.  and even if we were to pick up that AA CF we're lusting after, that's not going to help now.  and i hate coco crisp; i'm not high on taveras but a guy with a career .330 obp is not who we want leading off.  i know this all seems very negative, but i'm passionate about this subject.  this would be the most significant blow to my colorado sports teams fan-dom since terrell davis tore his knee up and was never the same.  like i said in my original post, i'm already having nightmares about watching baseball tonight in july and hearing karl ravech saying "touch 'em all, todd helton!  already his 20th and we're only halfway through the season.  great pickup for the red sox."

Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Jan 27, 2007 2:10 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Olney sez
Buster Olney is saying over that ESPN that any deal would 'have to include' Matt Clement. I have no idea why this would be the case but it certainly makes me less interested in making the deal. No Tavarez, no Clement, and no Lowell, please - those guys are terrible.
Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Jan 27, 2007 1:42 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ummmm... why?
Clement does not make our rotation any better.
I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Jan 27, 2007 2:05 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wait... never mind
I read the Olney article and the "must include Clement" thing is from the Red Sox perspective.  I was wondering what O'Dowd was thinking with that one.
I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Jan 27, 2007 2:08 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Clement
Not only would Clement not help the rotation, he wouldn't even be pitching until at leats 2008. He had extensive surgery on his labrum and rotator cuff a couple months ago and is not expected to throw a pitch at all in 2007. Seeing as how we just got Lawrence who hasn't pitched in over a year for the exact same reason, we really don't need Clement.

by lgh77 on Jan 27, 2007 3:03 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where would we put him?
Boston media sources are saying similar things. Why would the Rockies trade Helton for old overpriced awful players when he's an old overpriced great player?

Yeah, I'm still skeptical of this thing because the Red Sox seem to be wanting the best of all possible worlds here, and unless they are willing to give up something of actual value to the Rockies, I don't see why we would continue to pay Todd for the privilege of taking the Red Sox back to glory.

by Rox Girl on Jan 27, 2007 1:54 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Contract length
Lowell and Tavarez are not locked up for nearly as long as Todd, to the best of my knowledge.

Rather than flat-out paying x portion of Helton's salary (it seems inconceivable that we can find a trade where we pay none of his salary) the Rockies might wish to pay a smaller portion outright and take back undesirable salaries in return.

Instead of paying 10 million per year for Todd to play in Boston we might pay 6 million per year and take on the contracts of Lowell and Tavarez.  This only works if we value the contributions of Lowell and Tavarez or if we see an opportunity to turn around and unload either the contracts of said players or to get a desired prospect or player in return for them.

Any Helton trade looks to be....complicated....to say the least.

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 2:25 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: contract length
Lowell is entering the last year of his contract and Tavarez has the 2007 year plus a mutual option for 2008.

by lgh77 on Jan 27, 2007 2:31 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

acording weei boston
the show host has spoken to espns buster olney and rockies and redsox have agreed on the money side of the trade.

by jaxROXdisciple on Jan 27, 2007 2:17 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re:
ESPN is reporting this too, with Lowell and Tavarez said to be the main pieces from the Boston side.

According to this story the Rox want both Hansen and Delcarmen but the Sox are unwilling to part with either: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2745139

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Jan 27, 2007 2:22 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holliday, Atkins???
So just looking at the money perspective not necessarily what we would receive in return but would this open up room to sign Holliday and Atkins?

by Hometown Hopeful on Jan 27, 2007 2:23 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Atkins certainly
While I feel like Holliday's already got one foot out the door (he wants Carlos Lee money and the Rox sure aren't going to be the ones to give it to him), any money the Rox save here would likely go towards exploring extensions with Atkins and Aaron Cook, as well as possibly pursuing a major free agent center fielder next winter.
Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Jan 27, 2007 2:26 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They better
I agree about Holliday, but this money saved MUST be used to help the team, rather than just go right back into Monfort's pockets.

by Knepster on Jan 27, 2007 2:50 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Updated Olney post
Buster Olney over at ESPN just updated his post on the trade. According to him, both sides are in virtual agreement on the dollars, with the Rockies likely responsible for slightly less than half of Helton's remaining six-year, $90.1 million guaranteed contract. The Red Sox would send Lowell, Tavarez and prospects to the Rockies. But the identity of the prospects could hold up the deal: The Rockies want relief pitchers Craig Hansen and Manny Delcarmen, while the Red Sox do not want to give up either at this time. That is pretty much what is being reported by Rosenthal, the Post and the Rocky Mountain News.

by lgh77 on Jan 27, 2007 2:26 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let's just say...
I'd have to take back a lot of the nice things I've said about Dan O'Dowd recently if all we could get in return for Helton are two fungible relief prospects and two old players who aren't upgrades over what we already have.
Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Jan 27, 2007 2:28 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I just updated the main post
to reflect my opinion on this latest turn of the rumor.

by Rox Girl on Jan 27, 2007 2:34 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, some patience.
Before we get to overworked about dealing Hlton, let's see how the Rockies elect to play this out.

For starters, I don't see Mike Lowell hanging around in Colorado through the season, if he even makes it to spring training with the team.  If he can be turned into an additional prospect, this might not look so bad.

I think too many fans here are afraid to trade the memories of Todd Helton, but not the present and future Helton.  Suppose Helton was to have a bounce back this season, how long would it last?  He's approaching 34, so the decline will only restart shortly.  

Getting two prospects and two major leaguers, one that could become another prospect, doesn't look that bad if it means flexibility and stability in the future.  Some of this savings could be plugged into the signing budget for the draft, allowing the Rockies to go overslot in a few rounds to restock the lower levels.  It isn't just about the players.

Again, all the Rockies need are solid additional prospects that can make an impact through the majority of Helton's deal.  The fan base is already down, and everyone knows that winning, not one aging superstar, is what brings fans to the park.  If you don't believe it, just look at the Avs, who have lost their sellout streak and have incurred more empty seats as the team struggles, depsite having Sakic still in tow.  

So relax, the Rockies won't just take Lowell and Tavarez.  They're going to get some young talent, whether they get it all from Boston or from elsewhere with Lowell.

by David "ohno" on Jan 27, 2007 2:46 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree
I also don't see the prospect of a fan revolt as being as big of a problem as many here do.

The vast majority of fans haven't yet bought into the strength (and value) of the Rockie's farm system.

There isn't a whole lot of good will for the Rockies to lose in the first place so avoiding a healthy deal in order to avoid losing a fictional property is pretty foolish, IMO.

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 2:50 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is only
one way to counteract fan backlash: win. Win and be in the race, I don't like Monefort's "goal" of .500. That won't appease people.

by Knepster on Jan 27, 2007 2:53 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

edit
Monfort

by Knepster on Jan 27, 2007 2:53 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I trust O'Dowd, actually
To make the right call on this trade when the time comes, but I don't trust Theo and the Red Sox. My incredulity is more toward their offer than toward any thought of the Rockies accepting it. I think that eventually they will buckle, as right now their lineup isn't quite up to par with the Yankees, but with Helton and their rotation, they would have to again be considered the favorites in that division. But to suggest that they could get a player of Helton's stature and stardom for only junk parts is kind of galling.

by Rox Girl on Jan 27, 2007 2:53 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My thoughts exactly
Epstein has a history of this, which is why they are typically a difficult trading partner.  Overyone mocked them for their requested return on Wells until they got Kottaras.  They offered Coco Crisp for Mark Buehrle, and asked for the moon for Manny Ramirez.  It all comes down to how much the Red Sox want Helton, as they've never been in the market for equitable deals.  That's great if you're a Sox fan, and I admire the gumption, but in this case, the Rockies need not bite until Boston gets real.

by David "ohno" on Jan 27, 2007 3:06 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And by real
I mean reaching a satisfactory agreement on the prospects portion.

I would not be dissapointed with a Lowell/Hansen/Tavarez/Delcarmen deal if we then spun off Lowell.

by David "ohno" on Jan 27, 2007 3:09 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Elephant in the room
People tend to forget that the key component of this trade is the 50 million dollars worth of salary that Boston will be taking on.

If Helton had a desirable contract (from a team point of view) then we would be talking about a Tejada or Baldelli package of prospects rather than anything that is actually being proposed.

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 3:07 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that doesnt make sense
if his contract were reasonable/desirable, i hope we wouldn't be trading him at all.  
Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Jan 27, 2007 6:23 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which proves my point
Tejada and Baldelli haven't been traded either.

An impact player with a favorable contract holds incredible value and is unlikely to be traded.  

I still contend that the contract is the most important factor in this trade - more specifically that the negative value of said contract excedes the positive value of Helton's talent and abilities.

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 6:44 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This same post has exactly six comments to it
Guess they're not that interested over there.

by Prospector on Jan 27, 2007 3:09 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From Thomas Harding
at the official site. It has some Monfort quotes. O'Dowd is dealing with a family matter so that's why talks won't pick up until Monday or Tuesday.

by Russ on Jan 27, 2007 3:21 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

<cry of despair>
No. I do not want Todd to go to the Red Sox, Sam I am.

How realistically is this going to happen? Say it ain't so, Joe.

We too are stardust. -Sophie's World

by Squeaky on Jan 27, 2007 6:02 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree.
I dislike the idea of us taking on Lowell (decent, but aging, and no upgrade over what Helton could give us) Tavarez (middling relief pitcher at best, and nothing that could help our bullpen) and whatever pitching prospects O'Dowd is conned into taking in exchange for the face of the franchise. I especially do not want to see the words Matt or Clement involved in any sort of transaction for our star, if also aging/declining, first baseman. Todd had a tough year last year, but there's no way I want to see us take on the Red Sox's garbage in exchange for a very proven major-league hitter who could still rebound and turn in a completely serviceable/above average season.

Let's just say if this deal is made, my already low opinion of O'Dowd is going to take a major hit.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time, and you annoy the pig. -- Mark Twain

by Silverblood on Jan 27, 2007 6:37 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One thing no one has mentioned
yet is the possibility that DOD might not have any say in the matter. What if he doesn't want what the Sox are offering in a less than adequate deal but Monfort really wants to go ahead with the deal. He owns the club, he has the final say.

by Russ on Jan 27, 2007 6:49 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Monfort
It appears that Monfort is taking a more active role in this particular situation than ownership has done in the past.

I have no clue how that will impact this or future management decisions.

Things could get scary if he starts meddling. :(

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 6:59 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Scary thought
It could be said that the only thing more stupid than retaining O'Dowd would be to retain him AND to ignore his opinions.

As bad as O'Dowd is in the eyes of some fans, he still is a far superior option to any modern owner when it comes to the duties involved in running a franchise.

by MADness on Jan 27, 2007 7:00 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

now THAT'S an owner
this is why i've always been a big fan of pat bowlen, in spite of his horrible fashion sense.  sure, he's always interacted with broncos management and told them what he likes and doesn't like, but i don't know of a single instance in which he's overruled something they wanted to do and made it his way or the highway.  if monfort is so concerned about the bottom line and saving money, he needs to take into account decreases in ticket sales and potential advertising dollars if he pulls the deal on this too soon.  someone somewhere on this page made an excellent point- that it's much, much easier to sell the idea of trading todd if we're in the middle of another mediocre season.  it could even be spun as a positive thing, like, we care so much about him that we don't want him to suffer here anymore!  we're doing what boston did when they sent the avs ray borque, only 6 or 7 years earlier in his career.  that kind of deal.
Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Jan 28, 2007 9:02 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can understand Monfort's discomfort
with the Rockies' lack of success, but I think that ownership overruling baseball operations is almost always a very bad sign for a franchise's future. An undermined GM is not an effective GM, if only because other clubs know the GM does not have the final say. And it's hard to attract quality GMs down the line if they know the ownership will step in and make decisions. If the Monforts don't like DOD, just fire him. Undermining him hurts the whole front office, in addition to the players and fans.

by enkrates on Jan 27, 2007 6:59 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what about the issue of LH bats
I think another issue might be LH bats if this trade does go through.  The only thing that makes sense would be to move Atkins to 1B and Baker to 3rd.  This would give us only 2 legitimate LH bats and only 1 of those is a power bat.  I see that as a possible major issue, unless Stewart or Koshansky get in the lineup, and I see that as highly unlikely until 08 or at least the 2nd half of 07.  

by smokinRox on Jan 27, 2007 8:03 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thoughts
Well, I'm all for trading Helton, but I don't want us to just take on another team's trash to do so. I would gag if we got a package of Lowell/Taveras/Clement or something. That would be horrible. We need to get at least two prospects in the deal to make it worth it, IMO.

If I was O'Dowd, I might even start calling up other teams. Try and get a bidding war started. The Angels package looked pretty good. The Yankees could always use another big contract.

And if we do trade Todd, the money we save had better go to extending Atkins and others. If it's just more money in Monfort's pocket than forget it.

by avsfan4ever33 on Jan 28, 2007 8:00 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1 Problem
Helton mentioned he'd veto the trade to Anaheim.

There's apparently a "short list" of teams where he'd approve a deal.  Boston is one of those teams....also it was mentioned that the Atlanta Braves were another one of those teams.

My guess is that he'd prefer to got to the East Coast (or Midwest).  No word if the Yankees would be one of those teams.

by sg8335aa on Jan 28, 2007 9:18 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Commentary from the Boston side...
BASEBALL NOTES - Boston Globe
A trade with possibilities
Helton would be intriguing acquisition
TODD HELTON Huge numbers

By Nick Cafardo  |  January 28, 2007

Maybe his home run production has diminished. Maybe he's amassed impressive numbers in a great hitter's park, Coors Field. But I must admit, I am utterly fascinated by the prospect of Todd Helton in the Red Sox lineup.

No offense to Craig Hansen, but if that's all it takes to acquire Helton, a number of Red Sox fans would offer to drive the young righthander to the airport and send him to the Mile High City with a pat on the back.

When I first heard of Sox-Rockies talks back in November -- mostly about a Manny Ramírez-Helton swap -- it was an interesting idea, but a wash in some ways. Now that the talks don't include Ramírez (at least, that's the word from a couple of major league sources) and the Sox are looking at a batting order with David Ortiz, Ramírez, J.D. Drew, and Helton -- that gets your attention.

Major league sources told me yesterday that the Red Sox aren't jumping through hoops to make this deal. It's been proposed to them by the Rockies. The Sox love the concept, but they won't do anything that stretches their boundaries financially or means giving up prominent young players.

According to a Rockies official, they would have to get one or two young players who would make an impact in the near future. Colorado doesn't want to lose the popular Helton, take on a veteran at the end of his contract, and a year later have nothing to show for it.

"They [Red Sox] like their team as it's constituted," said one of the sources. "It would be surprising if they gave up young pitching. Helton would be a great hitter in that ballpark and he's their type of player in that he's patient and he'll work the count."

Helton is 33 and has five years remaining on his deal at $90.1 million (including a $4.6 million buyout for 2012). There is concern that as he ages, he'll decline to where his production doesn't match what you're paying him.

Presumably, the Red Sox wouldn't be against giving up Mike Lowell (possibly to San Diego for a reliever such as Scott Linebrink) and moving Kevin Youkilis to third. Or they might get Colorado to bite on Lowell; the Rockies already are interested in Julian Tavarez. That way, the Sox could keep their young pitchers, but you have to think Colorado would need at least one young pitcher in a package deal.

But imagine this lineup:

SS Julio Lugo

RF J.D. Drew

DH David Ortiz

LF Manny Ramírez

1B Todd Helton

3B Kevin Youkilis

C Jason Varitek

CF Coco Crisp

2B Dustin Pedroia

Helton, who has a no-trade clause but is willing to consider a Red Sox deal, according to Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News reports, has won three Gold Gloves at first base. He has the highest career batting average among active players (.333). He won a batting title in 2000 hitting .372, and he has a lifetime on-base percentage of .430 and slugging percentage of .593.--But he has battled back problems for a few years and his home run totals dropped to 20 and 15 the last two years.

The Red Sox wouldn't want to assume all of the money remaining on Helton's deal. The Rockies are willing to kick in some money in a trade -- as much as half, according to a major league source -- but it was unclear whether that applies to the Red Sox at this juncture. If the Red Sox were able to move Lowell, that would be $9 million off the books, which would help in taking on Helton's $16.6 million salary for '07.

The Red Sox have been reluctant to part with young pitching after giving up Anibal Sanchez and Cla Meredith, who have been successful in Florida and San Diego. A Roy Oswalt deal was squashed at the trading deadline last year when the Sox wouldn't give up young pitching. But they've built up their bullpen this winter -- though they're still without an established closer.

If Helton came aboard, the Sox offense could be lights-out. Couple that with one of the most solid starting rotations in baseball, and the pressure on the bullpen could be greatly eased.

The Red Sox aren't commenting on the Helton reports, and efforts to reach Colorado GM Dan O'Dowd were unsuccessful. But there have been talks, and there may be more this week.

Right now, the concept is intriguing, but from what we're being told, the Red Sox would need a lot more nudging before they'd do it.

by DeepPurple on Jan 28, 2007 9:10 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about Manny?
Well to trade Helton & his CONTRACT requires only a few of the big, well healed teams.  The Angels deal is done, the Dodgers are in our divion.  That leaves the Red Sox, Yankees, the Mets, Cubs, White Sox, and Atlanta.  Also Todd has a full no trade clause and has reportedly given only 2 teams he would consider: Boston and Atlanta.

2 trades that make sense to me:
Lowell (Bad Contract) + Jacoby Ellsbury + one of either Hansen or Delcarmen (and possibly J. Tavares if he's a negative to the Red Sox) for Helton and Cash.

Or Helton for Manny + either cash or Lowell as Manny is older then Helton.  See Woody Page's article on Manny for Helton:
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5102928

He sums it up basicly saying that Manny is the only person that will make it look like the Rockies are willing and trying to win the division that Monfort has said is the goal.  (even though the Monforts and O'Dowd have said .500/mediocare is a lofty goal to shoot for...WHOO HOOOO!!!)

This looks like a Monfort driven fire sale to me.  They want Helton's contract off the books.  Period.  Good trade be damned.  I think Boston's offer shows they think that too.  Personally I don't see any way a trade of Helton helps this team win this year.  Or years down the road.  It shows to me that ownership has no money. Period.  They are broke.  They can't afford to field a major league team, and pay a star player's contract.  If this goes though as it looks now then the Rockies ARE the Royals, D-Rays and Pirates and not the A's or Twins

by Redhawk on Jan 28, 2007 9:32 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Disagree.....
I don't see it as a firesale at all.  I see it as a move related to the recent salary escalation and a way to clear up payroll to sign guys like Aaron Cook, Brian Fuentes and Garrett Atkins to long-term deals.

by sg8335aa on Jan 28, 2007 9:33 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Only if.....
  1. the Rockies ACTUALLY do that.  I've see little attempt on the Rockies to spend money on contracts that are near market value. See: Jason Jennings, Matt Holiday & Todd Helton (and yeah, I think market value this year was nuts too...but that's the price of doing business, and I think Holliday and Jennings want the free market place bidding regardless)
  2. When?  When do the Rockies plan to win? Not this year.  Next Year? The year after? It wasn't last year, or the year before.  And I may be looking through Purple Colored glasses, but I think the Rockies have a shot at winning (the NL West anyway, if the Dodgers have injuries, etc) this year

by Redhawk on Jan 28, 2007 9:41 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks Monfort!!!
Let me just say a big "Thanks" to Monfort for publicly stating that he did not want to have so much of the Rockies' salaries tied up in one player.  Thanks for making sure every team willing to negotiate for Helton will low-ball the heck out of us since they now know ownership is driving the Helton trade.

Monfort needs to stick to what he knows, steaks and ground beef, and leave baseball ownership to someone that knows baseball.

by cofan17 on Jan 28, 2007 12:22 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hear hear!!!
I've been angry ever since I heard they were just TALKING.
I need a Holliday.

by Squeaky on Jan 28, 2007 6:51 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I may be alone here,
but if the Rockies unload Helton's entire contract for nothing in return, I think it would be a net positive.  That is, if the money is put back into the team.  It makes sense to move Helton, but I still feel uneasy about the management's willingness to spend the necessary money to win.

by DenverBears on Jan 28, 2007 7:19 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Latest from RMN:
The Rockies seem set on the cash heading to Boston (40 million) and the major leaguers (Lowell and Tavarez), the hang-up is in the prospect.  The Rockies have given Boston a list of five prospects, of which they want one: Ellsbury, Buchholz, Delcarmen, Hansen, and Bard.  They'd also consider Lester upon medical approval.  Epstein wants no prospect dealt, however, Ringolsby hints that Lucchino wants the deal done.

My Take:

Kudos to O'Dowd for his firm offer.  The Rockies will cover less than half of Helton's deal, and expect to receive one prime prospect in return.  Before everyone balks at the offer, consider that Lowell's expected production (with a Coors bump in average) may not be terribly far off from what Todd would do here.  The actual difference in production last year was almost a win and a half, so nothing's getting mailed in.  

I laughed when I read how the Rockies would "consider" Lester, as he may be the best player of the six.  I'm not up to speed completely on his recovery, but last I remember they were hoping he could go from the start.  Personally, if we're only getting one, let's take Manny Delcarmen off that list.  He doesn't seem much different than Ramon Ramirez.  Everything else looks good from there.

For those that are looking at this as a baseball deal (and not strictly from a fan's perspective), I think the hardest thing to grasp is the impact of the salary relief, because it can't be quantified in expected production or wins, nor can webe sure where the money will go.  It is only fair that we assume that money will be poured back into the team, or else the Rockies are finished as a professional franchise.  It's okay to burn some bridges now if you truely believe that you can take the salary relief and add stability to the rest of the roster, in hopes of buying future wins.  Burn those bridges and pocket the money, and you sink your franchise.  Rockies fans aren't Pirates fans, the club has no long standing history to retain fans like Pittsburgh.  If Monfort plans on having a payroll in the 40 million range for the next few years, The Rockies will just become the Expos, not even an afterthought in its own city.  Monfort understands the risk of dealing Helton, and if this team means anything to him, even if its sole purpose is to make a profit, he'll put the money back in to stay competitive.  He cannot afford to do otherwise.

As for the current deal at hand, I think it is a good start.  The Rockies would get back a player not only worthy of making their top ten prospect list but also playing a role in the team's present.  With Lowell, they'd also get a player that could have further value in trade.  I found most of Paige's article today to have little value, but he does make a good point about Ensberg, who has serious bounce back potential and could make a better bridge to the arrival of Stewart (or Koshansky).  The Rockies don't really need the salary relief at this very secod, so they could pay the difference in Lowell's salary to acquire Ensberg, as that money was earmarked for use as is.  

With the significant amount of money involved in this deal, the Rockies can't be picky, but they also can't just give Helton away.  That's why they have made a fair offer in my opinion, and as O'Dowd showed in the Jennings deal, he will stand firm on that offer with little concession.  

Finally, try to bare in mind that the Rockies are not trading Todd Helton of late 90's/early 00's, they are trading the aging, declining (steadily the past two years) Helton.  It's hard to make a claim that keeping him is what's in the best interests of the team for future competition, since his salary likely prohibits the retention of most of the homegrown talent.  It should also be noted that Boston might be the only avenue to deal Helton.  St. Louis has no need for a first baseman, Atlanta is slicing payroll down, and Helton has already noted a decline in heading to the other big pocket franchise, Anaheim.  That basically leaves both New York's and Boston (Helton would likely turn down Baltimore, Texas has no need, Helton isn't heading to a division rival).  The Mets have Delgado, and the Yankees have avoided recent major payroll additions.  It's hard to find another taker, not just now, but a year or two down the road.  So it isn't so easy to say just hang on to him until a better deal comes around, because chances are, it won't.

So, if Boston budges, the moves is a good one.  If they won't, then we'll just have to cross our fingers that a miracle happens and age trends and years of studies on career trends are suddenly reversed, or a surprising buyer comes along that matches the wants of both Helton and the Rockies.  As contradictory as this all may sound, that's the situation the rockies find themselves in.

by David "ohno" on Jan 28, 2007 8:50 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My apologies for rambling
I could have exercised more brevity.

by David "ohno" on Jan 28, 2007 8:51 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RMN article
I'm not sure what to think.

Ringolsby doesn't seem to know a whole lot about this situation or the prospects involved.  Seems like a lot of speculation and guessing by the Cowboy.  You can automatically cross off 4 out of the 6 prospects he mentioned.

John Lester? The Sox wouldn't trade him even if the Rox threw in Fuentes.  
Jacoby Ellsbury? The Sox aren't giving him up.  He's probably untouchable.
Clay Buchholz? No way.... same deal as Ellsbury.
Daniel Bard? Can't be traded until September. No chance.

So....
Delcarmen (who isn't that good) or Hansen (whom the Sox are reluctant to give up) + Tavarez and Lowell for Helton.....

This trade is not happening (which is probably a good thing).  Too many moving parts, too many discrepancies.

R you in?

by malakian on Jan 28, 2007 10:06 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good article by Rosenthal
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6419282

And I agree with him.

At the beginning of this, I was all for a deal. But after we've gotten more information on the players involved, money, etc, I'm very much against a Helton deal right now.

by avsfan4ever33 on Jan 29, 2007 6:42 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for the link..and I agree
I don't think trading Helton now makes much sense.  The Rockies would be selling low.  And the Rockies don't need salary relief now (unless the Monforts and Rockies are as broke as I think they are and they DO)

Next year? great then they can respend Todd's saving, which won't be all THAT much if the Rockies will be paying Half his salary anyway.

by Redhawk on Jan 29, 2007 8:31 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Glad the Helton deal is off
Would hate to see the Red Sox pickup such another high quality bat from the NL West.
vr, Xei
2007 NL West Predictions: 1. Padres, 2. DBacks, 3. Dodgers, 4. Giants, 5. Rockies

by Xeifrank on Jan 29, 2007 10:17 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Colorado Rockies, established 28 April 2005.

Community Guidelines

Start posting about the Rockies »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

P1_iannetta_small
At Bat/Entrance Music: 2009 Edition
Apt_visit_2_small
Some July Wallpaper Coming Soon!
Sleepy_jeff_small
Purple Row Fantasy League End of June Standings
Small
Manny being...cheap
Sleepy_jeff_small
Purple Row Prediction Competition Week 12
October_075-1_small
Making My First Trip to OAK and LA to Watch Rockies, Any Pointers?
Rockies_lost_americana_small
Shop PurpleRowCares!
Gvf_small
2009 Draft Pick Signings
Helton_small
What is Morales worth??
Small
Frontier promotion code?

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


GM & Manager

Gvf_small Russ

Li_l_rox_girl_small Rox Girl

Coaching Staff

Liquid_small Silverblood

P1_iannetta_small RockiesMagicNumber

Coorsfield3_small theoldgrizzlybear

67880020--bled-slovenia_small Poseidon's Fist

Sleepy_jeff_small Jabberwocky

Official Partner of Yahoo! Sports