Mitchell Report Discussion

FYI

I'm having some issues with my Internet service today, I'll try having a post up later this afternoon about yesterday's moves.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 11:35 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Here is a disputed list of players on the report from http://www.utterz.com/~u-NDk5MjcyNg/utt.php
Brady Anderson
Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Aaron Boone
Rafael Bettancourt
Bret Boone
Milton Bradley
David Bell
Dante Bichette
Albert Belle
Paul Byrd
Wil Cordero
Ken Caminiti
Mike Cameron
Ramon Castro
Jose and Ozzie Canseco
Roger Clemens
Paxton Crawford
Wilson Delgado
Lenny Dykstra
Johnny Damon
Carl Everett
Kyle Farnsworth
Ryan Franklin
Troy Glaus
Rich Garces
Jason Grimsley
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Eric Gagne
Nomar Garciaparra
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jose Guillen
Jay Gibbons
Juan Gonzalez
Clay Hensley
Jerry Hairston
Felix Heredia, Jr.
Darren Holmes
Wally Joyner
Darryl Kile
Matt Lawton
Raul Mondesi
Mark McGwire
Guillermo Mota
Robert Machado
Damian Moss
Abraham Nunez
Trot Nixon
Jose Offerman
Andy Pettitte
Mark Prior
Neifi Perez
Rafael Palmiero
Albert Pujols
Brian Roberts
Juan Rincon
John Rocker
Pudge Rodriguez
Sammy Sosa
Scott Schoenweiis
David Segui
Alex Sanchez
Gary Sheffield
Miguel Tejada
Julian Tavarez
Fernando Tatis
Mo Vaughn
Jason Varitek
Ismael Valdes
Matt Williams
Kerry Wood.

by Blake20th on Dec 13, 2007 11:50 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I do not the accuracy of this list

however,
I am very dissapointed by some of the names on here.
Bichette, Pujols, Clemens, Prior

by Blake20th on Dec 13, 2007 11:53 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Prior makes sense to me

but he's a little disappointing coming from my alma mater. I want to know when it was that he was alleged to have used, whether it was during college and his early years to get a boost on the competition or during his recoveries from any of his several injuries.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 11:58 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Not accurate

FYI, I did a search of a couple of these names on the pdf file, and they didn't show up. So this is definitely not accurate.

Bichette is not in there, neither is Varitek or Pujols. I haven't searched the whole list, though.

by holly96 on Dec 13, 2007 12:15 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

INACCURATE

This list appears to be inaccurate. I posted this from a list that was supposedly leaked. It looks like some of these names are not on the report.
I apologize for the confusion

by Blake20th on Dec 13, 2007 12:23 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a little nervous about this report...

Are my baseball heroes about to fall off of a pedestal?

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Dec 13, 2007 11:51 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

How does Russ feel about Andy Pettite?

I'm not surprised by Clemens being on the list, but I think Pettite, Varitek, Bagwell and Pujols are going to hit people the hardest.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 11:54 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I feel so cheated.

However, I want to know exactly what the report has to say on him.

"Don't give up the ship!" - Capt. James Lawrence

by Russ on Dec 13, 2007 11:55 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I'm way off

but at first impression it seems like quite a few of these players were known to be total mashers who suddenly broke down. Am I off base with that or does anyone else see that trend too?

by Blake20th on Dec 13, 2007 11:58 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

file right here

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

by oxsnard on Dec 13, 2007 12:01 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

DENNY NEAGLE is in the report

Making that signing all the more of a disaster.

So is Mike Lansing, Jack Cust, and MATT HERGES.

Protect the Shield Read it, don't, whatever.

by Onebaseman on Dec 13, 2007 12:11 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Herges

that's not good

by Blake20th on Dec 13, 2007 12:17 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Herg

Hey, I'm not happy to see him on that list, but they aren't going to take away the NL Pennant because one guy wrote a check for HGH in 2005.

This whole day is just so much ado about so very little.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 12:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

You missed Gary Bennett

That about covers everyone with a Rockies tie... well, Glenallen Hill, too.

Is it bad that of all the names in that report (which is, as I would have figured, chock full of hangers-on and replacement-level guys), the one that bums me out the most is Herges?

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 12:17 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Other current/former Rockies

Bobby Estalella, Larry Bigbie (though for only two-months, and he claims he didn't use while with the Rockies), Gregg Zaun, Ron Villone (who was referred to the Mets guy by Neagle), Kent Mercker, Gary Bennett, Jr. (also referred by Neagle)

by holly96 on Dec 13, 2007 12:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Glenallen Hill has a section,

and he didn't name names to Mitchell because his future prospects as a manager would be killed if he did.

"Don't give up the ship!" - Capt. James Lawrence

by Russ on Dec 13, 2007 12:13 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Larry Bigbie's cooperation is interesting

In the Radomski section, apparently he was using extensively in the offseason prior to 2003 and was instrumental in verifying Brian Roberts' use as well.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 12:19 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Of course, this paragraph is key:

Bigbie was traded to the Colorado Rockies on July 30, 2005. He said that he did
not use any performance enhancing substances during his two-month tenure with the Rockies.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 12:22 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Thank goodness

Our 67-95 record that year can forever be viewed as untainted in the eyes of the Mitchell Report!

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 12:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

too bad some of our other crappy records

aren't quite as clean, given Denny Neagle's apparently pretty heavy use when he was with us.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 12:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I did a search on some of the names in the

leaked list and didn't find Bichette or Pujols. Someone better at PDF find these two?

by Blake20th on Dec 13, 2007 12:21 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Neither name is in the report

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 12:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow there's a lot of former Rockies

I'm suprised by David Justice. That's disappointing.

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Dec 13, 2007 12:21 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Page 200

Has the best list of names, including Paul Loduca, and Eric Gagne.

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Dec 13, 2007 12:22 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

200?

Is that the page you meant? I'm not seeing anything. I tried both 200 according to the pdf file (which is actually page 152 of the report) and the actual page 200.

by holly96 on Dec 13, 2007 12:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Neagle was assisted by a Rockies employee

Radomski also produced a check from Dan McGinn, Baseball Account, Coors
Field, 2001 Blake St., Denver, Colorado 80205, in the amount of $1,600. The memo line on the
check says "Neagle." At the time, McGinn was a clubhouse attendant with the Colorado
Rockies. Radomski said that the check was in payment for performance enhancing substances
purchased from him by Neagle. McGinn is no longer employed by the Rockies and did not
respond to our requests for an interview.

That's distasteful. I'm glad he's no longer with the club.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 12:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Neagle

Neagle also apparently referred at least two other Rockies to Radomski (Villone and Barnett, Jr.). Dude was bad news.

And I saw that, too, about the clubhouse guy. Glad he's gone.

by holly96 on Dec 13, 2007 12:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Lesson learned

When I grow up, I want to use steroids so I can be just like Howie Clark and F.P. Santangelo!

This list should put an end to the idea that steroids make superstars... if anybody still believed that in the first place.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 12:31 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Puh-lease

If you think these are the only individuals in baseball who used steroids, you're kidding yourself.
Wasn't Darren Holmes retired in 2003? That's when the report says he ordered steroids... Why is that even relevant?

by arosenthal on Dec 13, 2007 1:09 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

That wasn't my point

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 1:19 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

You're right

I misread it initially, but I don't know how to modify.
I thought you were saying it puts an end to the notion that superstars use steroids.
My bad.

by arosenthal on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Lo Duca looks pretty bad in the report

He referred several guys to Radomski and is quoted from an SI article as "not condoning" steroid use. I think this must have affected his ability to land a job this winter.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 12:34 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Lo Duca

appears to be the one who referred Herges to Radomski. Also Gagne.

by holly96 on Dec 13, 2007 12:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

No Todd Helton, of course

What do you say now, Wayne Hagan?

by DeepPurple on Dec 13, 2007 1:09 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Vina

Does ESPN keep him now?
And I would say Helton still isn't exonerated. Nobody is.

by arosenthal on Dec 13, 2007 1:13 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I think that is

the REAL lesson. It was wide spread. This list isn't by any means a comprehensive list of users, that simply can't be done.

But we know that superstars, marginal guys, hitter, pitchers, starters, relievers.....all used. In a weird way, I'm now less critical of users...they all did it. They had to in many ways to keep up.

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 1:19 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I've assumed all along that most people were using PEDs. This pretty much just confirms it. It's a decent sample size and it has every kind of player listed.
What happens to Herges now?

by arosenthal on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Now we know where

Denny Neagle spent all that $70M we paid him. For dope and for hookers on Colfax.

BTW: My report I got yesterday had some names missing in the public report today.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 1:21 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

There are a lot of $40...

...in $70 million.

And if he had spent it all on steroids, the size of his head would prevent him from getting through most standard doorways.

Seriously, is there a name that inspires more gut-clenching nausea among Rockies fans than Denny Neagle? Finding out he was pushing steroids on whomever would listen is just icing on the cake.

by DomCasual on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Herges

pdf page 270, at least wrote: "thanks!" on his check

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 1:24 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

At least

he's polite.

by arosenthal on Dec 13, 2007 1:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

And really!

...that should count for something!

by DomCasual on Dec 13, 2007 1:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Holmes and HGH

Holmes was named for using HGH after he retired. Not sure what the big deal of that is. HGH is not illegal. It is banned in baseball (and most sports)

Now how it helps an aging body is not fully known, if any. Some say it's a placebo. Others say it will revolutionize how we grow older, and can keep us younger longer. Muscle growth, ability to fight injuries and diseases, etc. I work out consistently, and I've read about HGH. Results are just not know yet. (except it tends to make your head bigger)

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 1:34 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Look at the size of that boy's head!

I'm not kidding, it's like an orange on a toothpick.

Well, that's a huge noggin. That's a virtual planetoid.

Has it's own weather system.

I'm not kidding, that boy's head is like Sputnik; spherical but quite pointy at parts! Now that was offsides, wasn't it? He'll be crying himself to sleep tonight, on his huge pillow.

HEAD! MOVE!

by DomCasual on Dec 13, 2007 1:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Not to toot my own horn...

But I've got a list of current and former Rockies players and personnel in the report up at the Zone (http://denversportszone.com). I've basically summarized the circumstances and sources mentioned in the report.

The thing that bugs me is that David Segui referred both Bigbie and Mike Lansing to Radomski as a member of the Orioles and Expos, respectively. In my mind, this really begs the question of whether Larry Walker, who was a teammate of Segui's on the Orioles and close friend of Lansing was ever involved with steroids.

I'll be looking at the Rockies' connections from that sort of data-mining perspective later, but I thought that was particularly interesting.

Yes, those guys.

by potterhead4 on Dec 13, 2007 1:53 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, Expos

walker was Segui's teammate on the Expos.

Yes, those guys.

by potterhead4 on Dec 13, 2007 1:54 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I worried...

...about Walker, just from his Expos connections.

But in fairness, he didn't seem like the type of guy that would benefit as much from steroids. He was so naturally talented and instinctive. And it wasn't like he reported every spring looking like Adonis (and that's putting it kindly).

I remember one year, he had apparently hired a chef to cook healthy meals for him the entire offseason. I don't remember it helping much. He just wasn't into the whole keep-your-body-in-top-shape thing, and I think it really cost him in his career.

by DomCasual on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

But getting big

isn't the only reason to use Steroids. Repairing and staying "fresh"/rebounding is one of the big reasons.

I think MANY (most) pitchers did some steroids....not to get big, but to stay healthy.

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 2:22 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the actual list:

Major League Baseball players with links to performance-enhancing substances named in the Mitchell report:

* Rockies (I might have missed a couple)

Chad Allen
Mike Bell
Gary Bennett
Larry Bigbie
Kevin Brown
Alex Cabrera
Mark Carreon
Jason Christiansen
Howie Clark
Roger Clemens
Jack Cust
Brendan Donnelly
Chris Donnels
Matt Franco
Eric Gagne
Matt Herges *
Phil Hiatt
Glenallen Hill *
Todd Hundley
Mike Judd
David Justice
Chuck Knoblauch
Tim Laker
Mike Lansing
Paul Lo Duca
Nook Logan
Josias Manzanillo
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Bart Miadich
Hal Morris
Daniel Naulty
Denny Neagle
Jim Parque
Andy Pettitte
Adam Piatt
Todd Pratt
Stephen Randolph
Adam Riggs
Armando Rios
Brian Roberts
F.P. Santangelo
Mike Stanton
Ricky Stone
Miguel Tejada
Ismael Valdez
Mo Vaughn
Ron Villone
Fernando Vina
Rondell White
Jeff Williams
Matt Williams
Todd Williams
Steve Woodard
Kevin Young
Gregg Zaun

Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Ricky Bones
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Paxton Crawford
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella
Ryan Franklin
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Darren Holmes
Ryan Jorgensen
Gary Matthews Jr.
Rafael Palmeiro
John Rocker
Benito Santiago
Scott Schoeneweis
David Segui
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 1:57 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

wow...

it didn't put a * next to all the Rockies. Sorry I don't know all about posting on the 'row.

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 1:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Depending on

how you use asterisks, it'll turn the words bold.

That should change when SBN 2.0 is launched at the end of the year (well, we're told that's when the new version will appear).

"Don't give up the ship!" - Capt. James Lawrence

by Russ on Dec 13, 2007 2:03 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I copied my list

from Yahoo...it had some highlighted Blue (had player pages). These turned bold. Asterisks seem to drop off.

No big deal to me...but might be to someone trying to figure out what I was typing.

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 2:06 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Bobby Estallela

Remember that guy? Massive guns, ripped to shreds. He's about the least surprising name on that list.

by BroJB on Dec 13, 2007 2:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm actually surprised...

None of the Blake Street Bombers are in here. Relieved, as well, although of course that doesn't make them clean. That's the stupid part of this report, it doesn't exonerate people not on it at all, just kills the people on it. This'll taint Clemens to some extent, for example.

"I want to live forever or die trying" Yossarian in "Catch-22"

by Dieb on Dec 13, 2007 2:06 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Only ones on this list

bought from basically 2 guys. Or talked to Larry Bigbie. Bichette must have used a different dealer.

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 2:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Re:

You seem to want to see Bichette go down for steroids. Any particular reason?

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 2:10 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't have anything against

Bichette at all. I just would put money (and lay odds on top of that) that he used steroids.

That said...I think if I bet money on any guy during the 90's/early 00's I'd be better then 50/50 he used steroids. I'd say 60% would be a small percentage.

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 2:19 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Glad Bichette's not there

I'm a big fan of Dante's. Not a great player per se, but a wonderful clutch hitter and a great oddball character. Exactly the sort of guy you fall in love with on a bad expansion team.

by BroJB on Dec 13, 2007 2:34 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

What a sad day

I just want to go back to talking about the Hot Stove league and the Rockies in '08.

by Since1993 on Dec 13, 2007 2:11 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

And. I'll leave with

The American principle of innocent until proved guilty.

by Since1993 on Dec 13, 2007 2:32 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Bichette was a user

played against him in the Texas League in 1985. I think he played for Midland. He was a wonderful fluid athlete with speed agility. A legitimate 5 tool guy in the Angels system. He came here eight years later as a slow, clumsy basher.

That's what this crap does, it gives bulk and mass and eliminates flexibility.

BTW Played against Canseco in 85 as well and he was definately juiced then. He played for Huntsville and I knew the moment I saw him he was not natural. The ball just rocketed off his bat and he looked like Charles Atlas. He had a really piss poor demeanor as well. This crap makes you do things like be angry, throw broken bats at people etc.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 2:34 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Bichette

As I said a few posts up, I'm very fond of Bichette and I'm glad he's not on the list. But, no, that doesn't completely clear him (or anyone else not on the list).

If he was, I don't think it would change my opinion of him. After all, I still look back with tears in my eyes at those many magical moments provided us by Bobby Estallela and Larry Bigbie. George Mitchell can never take that away from me.

by BroJB on Dec 13, 2007 2:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Love you man

that is classic. Nor the glory of Denny Neagle and Mike Lansing and their ability to simply overachieve.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 2:41 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Remember when...

Gary Bennett blocked that off speed pitch from Denny Neagle down in the dirt, kept us from losing by 15 runs? Those two provided us with some magical moments.

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Dec 13, 2007 2:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

A slow, clumsy basher...

who stole 79 bases in his first four years as a Rockie, including 31 in 1996.

Not that those numbers prove he didn't use steroids. But I'd just like to see something more than heresy (which the entire Mitchell Report is, really) before I start accusing players of using or not. There are too many shades of gray.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 2:43 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

but he was much slower than his Minor days. The other major loss was his defense and arm strength had curtailed huge. The major culprit being the lateral movement flexibility which is key in OF defense.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 2:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

hearsay and, copies of checks to

and direct testimony of dealers who sold substances to players. With the exception of Brian Roberts, the evidence presented amounts to more than hearsay. Sometimes it's purely circumstantial, but it's more damning than you're making it out to be.

Now, from what I understand, the reason that Pujols, Bichette, and others were taken out of the draft copy (the list that was leaked) is because the evidence presented against them was much more full of fluff and insubstantial. Just because their names were pulled doesn't exonerate them, and given the breadth of this list, I doubt public opinion will be on their side of this. The one thing this report makes very clear is that there are enough players who have a vested interest in keeping a lid on this to make everything muddy.

Okay, it also makes clear that GM's are weak when it comes to confronting players and owners just care about the money that's coming in. It's a pretty ugly document for baseball even if we already knew this stuff.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 2:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to believe...

That they'd take all of those names from the 'leaked list' off because the evidence was too light and insubstantial, and then leave guys like Brian Roberts (who should ABSOLUTELY be on the horn with his lawyers ready to sue somebody) on the list.

I am utterly convinced that the leaked list is a hoax. In fact, it sounds like a list you might get if you were a sports talk radio show and took calls for an hour from fans who named people they thought might have been steroid users.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 3:05 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

not saying you are wrong about Bichette,

but you do realize that many sprinters have been linked to steroids. The stuff doesn't have to rob them of their speed--it depends on how it is used and what training goes along with it.

by DenverBears on Dec 13, 2007 3:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

So....

The next question --

Roger Clemens. Hall of Fame or no?

by BroJB on Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I'd vote for him.

Bonds, too. But that's just me, and that's just my gut instinct. Please don't mistake this for a glorification of steroid use. The HOF is where great players belong, and Clemens and Bonds were great players.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 2:45 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

That's crap...

Shoeless Joe Jackson was a great player, and steroid users deserve a worse fate than he received.

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Dec 13, 2007 2:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Jackson

Jackson and Pete Rose belong in the Hall, too.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 2:47 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Jackson took the dough

he will be forever banned. He may have played to win but he took the 5 grand

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 2:49 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

That worked as short-form poetry

That's the thing about Charlie's statement I don't agree with - yeah, I did just say Jackson belongs in the Hall, but he's not because he and his teammates intentionally altered the outcomes of baseball games. That in my mind is FAR worse than steroid use.

mvn.com/mlb-rockies - Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Dec 13, 2007 2:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Guess I was a poet

and didn't know it!!!

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 2:56 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I think this puts him in the same class as Bonds

interesting that they both may be eligible the same year. I knew he was a likely user from stories I heard from the inside.

I think they will both make it eventually, but may be forced to suffer through a few ballots to get there. Bonds trial will may make or break him.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 2:43 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

It explains the bat throwing ..

incident in the world series against Mike Piazza.

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Dec 13, 2007 2:45 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Clemons and Bonds...

certainly deserve to be in. They are in a whole different class. Simply too good not to be put in, like Ty Cobb. I'd never want to have to meet either of them, though.

Also, I can't wait for A-Rod to break Bond's record. Even though I don't like A-Rod, that'll be sweet.

"I want to live forever or die trying" Yossarian in "Catch-22"

by Dieb on Dec 13, 2007 3:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

The one thing in this and the Congressional

hearings that really frosts my nads is that Marvin Miller and Don Fehr continue to hide behind a cloak of collective bargaining. I was so pleased when Reps from both sides of the aisle grilled this fat axx back in 2005. I will love to hear the Union news conference to get their spin.

This document shows that the Union is equally culpable. They someone think they are representing dock workers on Long Island or something.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Dec 13, 2007 3:03 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Selig's Presser

Bud said he would "take action!" "on a case by case basis"

ummm Bud using what proof? What are the criteria for this "action"? Flunking a drug test? or a check from 4 years ago from someone facing Federal drug charges?

This just in: Lots of players used steroids....everyone (owners, GM's, players, reporters) acts shocked...SHOCKED!

2006 TIME magazine "Person of the Year"

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2007 3:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I'm pissed that

I am going to see the Nike comercial with Shawn Merriman (sp?) creaming players about 50 times this weekend. He was suspended for a failed test LAST SEASON!

People act like baseball players are the only ones to ever use steroids.

It's amazing how much free time I have during the off-season.

by jcd823 on Dec 13, 2007 4:08 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I agree to a point

but I think the fact that MLB was soooo slow to put any kind of drug testing in place contributes to the differing standards. There's a sense (fair or not) that the NFL and the NFLPA were much quicker about getting a program going while the MLB was over there sticking their collective heads in the sand. So I think that's a big part of it. But you're right about the differing reactions to individual players. I did see someone (can't remember where) offer an interesting point. They said that part of it is that MLB players are seen more as the everyman than NFL players are. An MLB player is far more likely to look like he could be a high school teacher than is an NFL player. For that reason many fans are able to identify much easier with baseball players than with football players,so when a baseball player is found to have used PEDs, it's more of a shock and disappointment than when some huge, bulked up football player tests positive. I'm not sure if that explains it completely, but I thought it was a valid point.

by holly96 on Dec 13, 2007 4:20 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

All I have to say is

Kirk Radomski is a serious sleaze. I'm not excusing the players one bit, but to know that there was this one guy going around and selling them all the drugs... let's not omit this name when we compile lists of people who initiated scandal that gave baseball a black eye. Since baseball is a sport that I love so passionately and spend so much time on, I have a serious problem with this Radomski character going around and gaining base financial profit from defaming it.

Get Demented. Mother of the Baby Tulos; subsisting on a football diet until spring. Go Broncos!

by Silverblood on Dec 13, 2007 4:53 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

I don't know...

Frankly, because we only get his side of the story, he comes off sounding less sleazy than some of the players like Neagle or LoDuca that purportedly were spreading it around. He sold Bigbie's 'roids at cost, for instance, because Larry wasn't making a whole lot. I think he probably thought he was legitimately performing these guys a service.

I don't think anybody comes out looking good from this report.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2007 5:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Neagle, now...

Good lord, what a waste of money and space.

Get Demented. Mother of the Baby Tulos; subsisting on a football diet until spring. Go Broncos!

by Silverblood on Dec 13, 2007 5:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

It was called the Steroids Era for a reason

People took steroids. Everyone knows that. It was a fad. A trend. It happened. Why is everyone so shocked that the favorites did, too? Just because we idolize them doesn't mean they somehow apply to different rules.

I'm not surprised by the report. A little saddened. A little depressed. But not surprised. I have a feeling we'll be hearing about this for a long time...and it'll get old pretty quickly.

As for me...I'm just relieved that some names like Helton and Holliday weren't on there.

I'm heading for Columbia University next year!!!!

by Squeaky on Dec 13, 2007 5:33 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

well

For one this investigation should of been done by and Independent agency, not someone who has vested interest in an MLB team (Red Sox). Not to say that he forged the report to suit the Sox needs or brush away some evidence. But how many times in the interview did he and his associates mention Mitchell revolutionary drug testing system???

I'm sorry but I have a hard time listing to someone who has a part of a team and watch him point fingers or dig up dirt on all of the others.

by Jester76 on Dec 13, 2007 7:07 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Ho hum

I'm pretty depressed about this whole deal, but it'll pass. The only time it will become relevant again is when the handful of greats on here are eligible for the Hall. Other than that, I'm faily confident that by a year from now the whole report will pretty much be gone and forgotten. Considering how badly this could have turned out were more current stars named, I think baseball's going to pretty much come out of this ordeal smelling like roses (or at the very least, not getting dragged through the mud like they deserve).

rockies in october.

by LarryB303 on Dec 13, 2007 7:26 PM MST reply actions 0 recs