Stretching out the stretch runs
Last week I showed that the bulk of the Rockies success in 2007 came from players spending between their sixth and tenth seasons in the system (having signed between the years 1998-2002) with those spending their eighth season with the franchise -Brad Hawpe and Garrett Atkins primarily- being the class that provided the greatest contribution. Add in Matt Holliday, Aaron Cook and Jeff Francis and you have the core of the Gen R group that's largely responsible for our first National League pennant. Originally this group included J.D. Closser, Chin Hui Tsao, Choo Freeman, Jason Young, Clint Barmes, Ryan Shealy and several others that while at one point promising, didn't quite live up to their promise and/or were shipped elsewhere. Of these players, the only two that were considered in a truly elite class at the time of their signing by prospect watchers were Tsao and Francis.
The gaps formed in this wave by these misfires were filled with similar below the radar tactics. A couple of trades that were uninspiring in the moment (Marcos Carvajal for Yorvit Torrealba, Eli Marrero for Kaz Matsui) a couple that had to be taken given the offers presented (Jeff Cirillo for Brian Fuentes and two other prospects, Jason Jennings) and a couple that amounted to trimming excess in the system to shore up a weak pitching staff. The three free agents signed that had the most impact were Josh Fogg, LaTroy Hawkins and Matt Herges. Finally, there was one holdover talent from what was supposed to be a previous wave in Todd Helton and two from what we hope will be the next wave in Troy Tulowitzki and Manny Corpas. I'm simplifying, obviously, as others from Tulo's group played a big role down the stretch, but for most of the year, they were the major representatives.
So I guess my first point is, the Rockies got to where they are by being self sustaining and knowing how to work the flea markets and junkyards, not the stock exchanges or art galleries. This offseason, the Rockies have certainly been sticking to what they know. Is this the wisest approach to take, though?
To answer that, let's take a closer look at what we can expect over the next decade (remember, our 2007 team shows that taking a view this long doesn't hurt) from the Rox and the divisional rival that most closely resembles us, the Diamondbacks. Both teams have been lauded for having deep farm systems, but what have Arizona's moves this winter said about how they really feel their chances will pan out over the next ten years? What do the Rockies moves -or non-moves- say about their own feelings of their farm?
To do this, I'm going to separate the next nine seasons into three distinct three year time periods, putting a few of the prominent players who figure to come into their peak seasons (or at least post peak but still productive seasons) in each time frame for both teams. Then I'm going to look at how they are shifting the landscape with player movement. What this reveals is that although the two teams share many traits, they are taking unique gambles with their futures.
Arizona:
Group I
2007-2009
Brandon Webb - A
Dan Haren - A-/B+
Chris Snyder - B
Chad Tracy - B
Orlando Hudson - B+
Eric Byrnes - B
Group II
2010-2012
Max Scherzer - B+?
Micah Owings - B+
Billy Buckner - B
Chris Young - A
Stephen Drew - B/B+
Conor Jackson - A-/B+
Miguel Montero - B/B+
Group III
2013-2015
Justin Upton - A
Jarrod Parker - A
Gerardo Parra - C+
Renaldo Navarra - C+
Colorado
Group I
2007-2009
Jeff Francis A-/B+
Aaron Cook B/B+
Matt Holliday A
Brad Hawpe A-/B+
Garrett Atkins B+
Group II
2010-2012
Ubaldo Jimenez - A
Greg Reynolds - A-/B+
Brandon Hynick - B+
Troy Tulowitzki - A
Chris Iannetta - B/B+
Ian Stewart - B+?
Joe Koshansky - B
Seth Smith - B
Group III
2013-2015
Franklin Morales - A
Aneury Rodriguez - B-
Jhoulys Chacin B/B+
Chris Nelson - A-/B+
Dexter Fowler - A
Hector Gomez - A
Clue 1: the Dan Haren trade
Let's look at it from two different perspectives, the team that got Haren, and the team that did not:
Arizona: In a flurry of trades before the holiday, the Diamondbacks gained Haren, Chris Burke and Chad Qualls to make a clear enhancement to Group I for them, Buckner to relieve some of the hurt they put on Group II and a couple more fungible minor leaguers, that knowing our luck will turn out to be superstars.
In order to do this, they gave up six players who would have otherwise figured prominently into Group II, including top prospect Carlos Gonzalez, and one key Group III pitcher in Brett Anderson.
Colorado: Ken Rosenthal revealed after the trade that the Rockies had entered into discussions about Haren, but balked at Oakland's asking price. According to sources here, the A's had asked for some package that included Jimenez, Ian Stewart or Seth Smith, as well as Chris Nelson. There might have been some alternatives to giving up U-ball, but apparently Nelson was a definite desire of Oakland's and an impasse point with the Rockies who wouldn't deal him.
What this all means:
That Oakland, who for years had their Single A affiliation in Modesto and would therefore presumably know what players were flukes there, would want Nelson so badly speaks volumes for me. At any rate, also telling to me is Arizona's sell-off of 2010-2012 in getting Haren. They've got a fine start to a team for that period with Chris Young as the anchor, but as of right now, they've clearly fallen back behind both the Rockies and Dodgers in talent that figures to be peaking in that timeframe, particularly if Drew or Montero continue to disappoint at the Major League level. Scherzer's status as a starter seems in doubt, and without him, the Diamondbacks are left with nobody with ace potential between Webb and Parker.
What's more, if you consider the issues that Arizona will have with keeping the free agent Upton at that point compared to the relatively smoother road that the Rockies will encounter with Morales, it's becoming clear to me that the Diamondbacks have already mostly conceded that they'll be rebuilding then.
Clue 2: Brian Fuentes
In the talks the team had about him, the Rockies were asking for Major League talent, and have turned down unspecific offers of prospects according to a couple of media outlets, most recently Thomas Harding at the official site. Frankly, the team's got a strange demand from the reports that I've read in that they want a late inning reliever plus somebody for Fuentes. Of course, the obvious question is that if a team had a late inning reliever to spare, why would they need Brian? I have no idea. What's important to me right now in this post is that the Rockies are so set on filling Group I in such a trade, when there's probably a distinctly better return available in filling Group II or III.
Two things from this:
- The team doesn't really want to trade him until other teams have become more desperate or, uhm, crackheaded.
- The Rockies are confident enough that their farm will produce that they aren't looking for more help.
Clue 3: Hideki Kuroda trumps Josh Towers
Right after the Haren trade, the Dodgers moved fast to secure Kuroda. The timing might have been strictly coincidence, but you can be sure all these teams are well aware of how they feel they stack up to their divisional peers, and it certainly came across as a retaliatory strike. Since then, the Padres more nonchalantly reeled in Mark Prior and the Rockies got Kip Wells. Now the Rockies are getting closer to signing Josh Towers.
This essentially means that the Rockies are content to play it close for next season at least, rather than getting into an arms race.
But why not go after Brian Roberts, Scott Kazmir or Erik Bedard and make everybody else sweat for once?
Keep in mind that the Dodgers and Diamondbacks moves haven't pushed them that far ahead, only one and a half games according to this projection made just before Christmas, for instance, and that's really not enough to make anything remotely certain for next season as to who will win the division.
Clearly nothing is certain thereafter either, as attrition will occur in each of these farm systems, but right now in terms of talent, thanks to the Haren trade it's fairly clear that Colorado is moving further ahead of Arizona in the years after 2009 and the gap gets wider as you go along.
While getting an upgrade at second or a clear ace for the next couple of seasons would be nice, and probably give us a better chance against the AL if we were to make it back to the World Series, having Clint Hurdle win the All-Star game this year would also do that trick at a much cheaper price. I have yet to see a compelling argument that makes me feel a move is necessary right now, particularly given that the cost is certainly going to extract deeply from an advantage we have over most other teams in the division over the next decade.
The difference between the teams is becoming clear that the Diamondbacks aren't really looking past the arbitration years of the group they've called up the last two seasons, whereas the Rockies are. Nearly every move Arizona's made in that time, from rushing Upton to the majors to the Haren trade, has pointed to them trying to pack as much into the six seasons between 2007-2012 as possible and then start over with Parker and whoever else is coming next. The Rockies, by letting prospects slowly percolate up, seem to be aiming for a more sustained peak lasting deep into the next decade. Both teams are taking risks to pursue these strategies, the Diamondbacks will have to reload in a hurry but won't have the same high draft picks to do it, and one Brandon Webb injury could derail the whole thing. Meanwhile, the Rockies are banking a lot more on their prospects many of whom aren't close to the majors and several might not make it at all.
My take is that as since just as many games have been played in 2011 or 2014 as have been played in 2008 so far, we'd be chasing their paper tigers with our paper elephants by making a move for a Kazmir or Bedard right now. To me, and apparently also to the team, this is a shortsighted approach and I'd rather we wait to see how the season begins to unfold in real life.
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Somebody
by PinchHitLancePainter on
Jan 2, 2008 9:37 PM MST
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Nice Synopsis
by Prospector on
Jan 2, 2008 9:44 PM MST
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Fuentes
Secondly, and this would make an interesting research project, but it seems that bullpen help is more expensive in-season than during the offseason. Last year, with a stud closer already in the fold, Boston dealt 3 prospects to the Rangers (one of whom is a 5-tool Latin American FA signing) for Eric Gagne to be their set up man. The equivalent package from the Rocks might have been Dexter Fowler, Spilly and something short of Greg Reynolds.
by Thomas on
Jan 3, 2008 8:45 AM MST
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ROX GIRL.......
by 86 wins in 07 on
Jan 2, 2008 9:47 PM MST
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OK, very well diagrammed.
But I also agree with Prospector about Fuentes. He's useful to us now in the eighth and he can be traded for a pretty sweet plum if someone gets desperate in July.
I also think that as Kazmir's only 24, I'd shift some birds in the bush for this bird in the hand. AZ may have given away more for Haren than we probably rightly didn't but for Kazmir, even Chris Nelson wouldn't be totally off the table.
by Since1993 on
Jan 2, 2008 10:03 PM MST
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You know...
by Dieb on
Jan 2, 2008 10:39 PM MST
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Fuentes
Some people on the Row don't seem to like him, probably because he's 32 and in their eyes no player older than 28 should be kept around because they're blocking some can't miss hot prospect(s) from getting to the big club. That editorial aside, Fuentes is still an almost-elite reliever. Dealing him for anything but a ridiculous offer right now would be foolish. He's critical to the team's chances in 2008. The list of better 8th inning guys out there is extremely short.
by LarryB303 on
Jan 3, 2008 3:54 AM MST
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a few points...
- as a potential closer, his market value is probably higher than it should be, so it makes sense to shop him. This has nothing to do with age or ability, just the reality of closers. Also, because of this value, he'll be gone as soon as he is a free agent to a team willing to pay more. Given this, I think it makes a lot of sense to listen to offers for him--anything better than the expected draft pick compensation the Rockies would receive in return should be considered.
- With draft picks in mind, I wonder if it would make sense to give him a few save opportunities in 2008 from time to time to keep his compensation value up. I don't quite understand the formula for determining type A and type B free agents, but the formula pretty clearly includes saves as a factor. It would be a shame if the Rockies lost him as a free agent and he lost his type A status.
by DenverBears on
Jan 3, 2008 9:01 AM MST
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In agreement with Larry
The NL West promises to be a very tight race this year, and the value of an extra win or two is huge. If we can string together two straight playoff appearances it will go a long way to legitimize this franchise, making free-agent signings easier, expand the season ticket base, enable us to retain current players, etc.
Given this, I as a fan would be willing to sacrifice some from the 2009-2012 years in order to give us an edge this year.
by Roberbola on
Jan 3, 2008 9:21 AM MST
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2009-20012
by Thomas on
Jan 3, 2008 11:03 AM MST
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How certain are you?
Now, given that, how much advantage will he give us in 2008 and 2009 over the Diamondbacks and Dodgers, is it enough to ensure a playoff appearance?
Brian Roberts is 30. His career OPS+ is 101, and it's safer to project him coming back in 2008 with another more or less average offensive season than a year like he had in 2007. This would make him a four and a half to five WARP player, seven seems to be a safe upside estimate as he hit 7.1 last season.
Marcus Giles was a 2.5 WARP player for the Padres last year, and honestly I think this is probably as low as we should expect from second base in 2008. Maybe a little lower, around 2.0 as Nix's defense and baserunning value plus occasional power should keep this from bottoming at pure replacement level. So that jives with what you're saying of a maximum range of five wins assuming Roberts plays at his peak and the best of our second base group plays according to their fairly lousy projections. If the breakthrough last season for Nix is more real than you're giving credit for, and I'm a believer that it is, I think we get three to four wins from the position which would make the difference of a safe projection for Roberts and an upside projection for Nix around one win or less, so I have some issues with the bottom of your range, particularly when I don't see how we can possibly trade for Roberts without giving up some player expected to provide value to the Rockies in 2008.
Five wins, the outside estimate which doesn't factor what the players we would have to give up to the Orioles would provide, takes us from 1.5 back to 3.5 ahead. To me, this isn't nearly enough of a gap to be worth it, as injury risk and other variables over the course of the season make the possibility of doing this trade for nothing way too high.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 3, 2008 11:04 AM MST
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Isn't the package you suggest
I wouldn't hesitate giving a Tejada-like bounty for Roberts, (guys like Smith, Koshansky, et al) and my impression is the prospects the Astros gave up weren't at the Ubaldo/Morales/Nelson/Fowler level either.
I agree, if what you suggest is the true cost of Roberts I wouldn't do it either - it hurts us too much this year, not to mention down the road.
Excuse my ignorance, do your WARP figures above include a park adjustment? Not that it makes much of a difference but I guess I should know.
I am beating a dead horse I suppose, but I really feel like our window is 2008 and 2009. We've got our rotation nailed down at a decent cost, our offensive core is peaking overall, and I don't see the club re-signing Holliday. I also don't believe that the farm system is likely to produce a replacement for him.
by Roberbola on
Jan 3, 2008 1:21 PM MST
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A couple of responses
I had meant to put this in the original post, but decided not to because it was late and I already had written a lot, but sometimes double standards develop when it comes to what's expected of various teams in trades. Dodger fans in particular this off season have been whining about how unfair it is that Florida and Oakland are willing to part with their stars for packages of prospects that haven't even reached the MLB from Detroit and Arizona, respectively, while asking for Kemp, Loney, etc.., from Los Angeles for the same players. You see it with the Yankees, too, in regards to Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain. Colorado's in a similar boat, where teams will get too distracted by the much shinier unattainable pieces high in the system that will make them feel anything else we might offer is an inferior return, even if it's comparable or better than what they might get from a team with a weak farm that's willing to give up their best pieces. They've actually done studies on this phenomenon in laboratories with humans and other animals, and this sort of jealousy is apparently something that's hard-wired into our systems and very hard to consciously overcome.
That means anytime we seek a prime player this winter, teams will counter with Jimenez or Morales right off the bat, we might be able to get them to move off of them, but that will require adding more from somewhere else that will likely hurt just as much.
I agree that we have a really strong chance right now, and that Holliday is likely gone in free agency. Frankly, if we were to be able to somehow add two seven to ten win players and thereby get a clearly safe cushion over the rest of the division, your argument becomes much more compelling to me.
As it is, though, I still like our chances after he's gone. I think a combination of Tulo, Stewart and Iannetta at their peaks plus a better rotation top to bottom could replace the lost value of two of the three of Holliday, Atkins and Hawpe. At that point, center and second still might be the issues, but I like the chances of Nelson and Fowler adding something to the team at the point.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 3, 2008 2:29 PM MST
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trade thoughts
On another note, if you do trade with a bigger market team like Baltimore, one of the things they may very well ask for is a Garret Atkins/Brad Hawpe type of headliner to the prospect package. A late 20s slugger who could be wrapped at a reasonable rate up for a few of his peak years holds value in this leauge.
Look what the A's just got for Nick Swisher. Now, he's going to try and play CF, but as a COF, which is where he'll spend the bulk of his CWS playing days, his value is not that much higher than Mr. Hawpe.
by Thomas on
Jan 3, 2008 4:26 PM MST
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Another option in lieu of Roberts
Not as exciting, but still a win or three upgrade, no salary commitment beyond this year, and a great deal more certainty at 2B.
by Roberbola on
Jan 3, 2008 8:57 PM MST
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A double play combo...
by Dieb on
Jan 3, 2008 9:32 PM MST
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Feuntes
The idea that he sucks or that we have someone better to insert into that role is silly (even with superior stuff Weathers isn't a sure thing yet) and I doubt that those who are proponents of trading Feuntes believe any of that.
The whole point of trading Feuntes (or Atkins) is not to improve the big league team in 08 but to 'sell high' and significantly increase the talent level in the organization without losing much value from the big league club in the short term.
by MADness on
Jan 3, 2008 4:14 PM MST
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I see what you're saying
by LarryB303 on
Jan 3, 2008 5:31 PM MST
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I THINK YOU SPELL LOOGY.......
by 86 wins in 07 on
Jan 3, 2008 5:38 PM MST
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That looks right to me
by David OhNo on
Jan 3, 2008 6:41 PM MST
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Doubt it
A LOOGY who actually does really well against left-handed hitters would probably tear a hole in the space-time continuum.
by MADness on
Jan 3, 2008 7:04 PM MST
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Updated with letter grades
The two question marks -Scherzer and Stewart- are players where there's a wildly divergent opinion of their future roles/impact in the MLB although both are considered locks to make it.
by Rox Girl on
Jan 4, 2008 7:23 AM MST
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Dan Haren != Jeff Francis
Home of the 2007 NL West Champion AZ Diamondbacks
by AZ Snakepit on
Jan 4, 2008 1:32 PM MST
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Ouch
I don't know what I was thinking. Your team certainly seems to have Francis figured out...
by Rox Girl on
Jan 4, 2008 5:54 PM MST
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Er... No
Home of the 2007 NL West Champion AZ Diamondbacks
by AZ Snakepit on
Jan 4, 2008 1:26 PM MST
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